People are Good, Systems are Flawed, and Guns are Terrifying

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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EPISODE RESOURCES

Uvlade

Correction: In the Uvalde Section, Sarah and Beth talk about reporting that a teacher left a door open in the school. After we recorded, more information came out. She did not leave the door open. 

Texas Officials: Teacher Did Not Leave Door Open Before Massacre (Washington Post)

What Do We Need in this Phase of Covid?

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:00] That's what this situation shows us. There's a lot going on that we can't control for. Even with the good guys. So stop pretending like that's an easy solution because it's not. And people will continue to die as long as these deadly weapons are easily accessible.  

[00:00:29] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:31] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:32] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. We hope that you had the best holiday weekend available to you. We are here today talking about the latest from Uvalde, Texas, and the events of May 24th. And we're going to have a conversation that we're calling post-Covidscaffolding. We sort of just made that up. We really want to talk about how much structure do we want to build to help us progress out of the pandemic? And then, as always, we'll talk about what's on our mind outside politics, in particular, summer travel. But before we get to that, Beth, next week it's about to get real in America. And as a result, here at Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:01:28] And now I started thinking about how June might be just like the June of rage. Like, I'm so upset about gun violence and school shootings. And now I'm about to be so upset about these January 6th hearings. And so I'm just going to settle in. Like, maybe it's just angry June and that's okay.  

Sarah [00:01:48] So the select committee to investigate the January 6th attack on the United States Capitol is set to begin its public hearings on Thursday, June 9th, at 8 p.m. Eastern. There will be four daytime hearings and then another primetime hearing to close everything out on Thursday, June 23rd. And we are going to watch the primetime hearings on hot mic with all of you. We're going to watch all of them, obviously. But we wanted to offer up an opportunity for all of us to watch them together, since we know these hearings are important and are also hard. So at least we can be together in our rage.  

Beth [00:02:18] We're going to dedicate our Friday episodes over those three weeks of the hearings to talking about these hearings, and we'll release some of those episodes a little bit late so that we have time to watch them and process. And so we don't ask for complete miracles from our team. We're going to share our major takeaways on the show. We'll share them on Instagram and on Twitter and in our Friday newsletters. So it's going to be a lot of January 6th this June. But this is, I think, the most significant thing that has happened in my lifetime politically and in terms of where our democracy is and is going. And so we're going to carve out that time here, and we will do our very best to make it interesting and engaging and palatable. And we really appreciate you buckling up with us.   

Sarah [00:03:06] Yeah. Buckle up, buttercups. It's going to be a hell of a June. We are now one week out from the tragic events in Uvalde, Texas, on May 24th, where 19 children and two teachers lost their lives. And we are learning that the initial disclosures from law enforcement were not exactly accurate. I remember at the time there were sort of immediate reports that the school security officer engaged with the shooter. We did know pretty soon that the Border Patrol special unit were the ones that killed the shooter. But there was the the traditional governor, Greg Abbott, bragging on the law enforcement and their quick actions. But I also remember it was either that day or Wednesday that the reporting was the shooter had been in the building for an hour. And I immediately thought, oh, no. Something went terribly wrong if he was in the building for an hour. I knew that immediately. And it turns out that was correct. Something went terribly wrong, and that's why he was able to stay in the building for an hour.  

Beth [00:04:36] I watched the press conference that the Texas State Police gave in front of Rob Elementary School on Friday. It was excruciating to watch because the person conducting the press conference was not a decision maker that day. And was clearly having the worst day of his professional life. And was trying to keep his emotions in check and was trying not to throw anyone under the bus and also be transparent with and accountable to the community. And I think in the course of the 42 minutes of that press conference, I felt almost every human emotion at least twice. It was so difficult. And I've taken in all I can about the police response here, because I keep thinking, what am I missing? But it's pretty clear that this shooter managed to shoot his grandmother in the face, drive to the school, crash his vehicle, shoot at some random people near a funeral home, make his way into the school, and be there for between 77 and 78 minutes before 19 police officers who were there for most of that 77 to 78 minute window did not enter the classroom. And as small children were on 911 calls saying, we can hear the police, please send them in. And I cannot imagine another layer that could worsen this tragedy. It's just as awful as it gets.  

Sarah [00:06:26] My husband said, I really don't want to talk about all this police decision making. He's like, I feel like it's a distraction. And in some ways I understand his point. In some ways, it is easier to beat up on the police. Because mistakes were made. And also, I mean, just human mistakes. The  shooter entered from a door propped open by a teacher. I think about that teacher every day.  

Beth [00:06:51] I know.  

Sarah [00:06:52] I think about her every day. The incident commander on the scene, Chief Arredondo, who was the chief of the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District's Police Department. Now we've not heard from him. He has police protection at his home. If I'm being honest, I keep waiting every morning expecting to hear that he has died by suicide because I cannot imagine. Cannot imagine. He made the wrong call and people died. There's no debating that, I don't think at this point. The waiting cost children their lives. I don't think there's a debate in that either. There are parents too who now know the details of their children's injuries and know how long they lay there and they bled out.  And so I think it is important to investigate all of this and witness the tragedy that was made worse by human decision making. But to me, the reason is not a distraction necessarily from the debate about gun control, is the guns were there. The good guys with guns were right there. They were right there the whole time. And so the idea that that's the solution has to be to me sort of forever set aside considering the events of May 24th. Because the problem is when a human being gets a gun, it's not a simple calculus. It's not a bad guy gets a gun and we can stop them. A good guy gets a gun and good things happen. It's infinitely complicated by human decision making. That's why, to me, the conclusion is guns complicate already dangerous situations almost every time. So the best way to reduce the danger is to keep the guns away from human beings. It's just like this idea that the simplification and the narrative about what happens when humans get guns. How could you look at the situation and conclude, oh, yeah, we know what happens when people get guns. It's mind boggling to me.  

Beth [00:09:20] Well, let me first say that I hope Chief Arredondo is surrounded by people who love him and are helping him get through this horrific moment that he will have to live with for the rest of his life. And I hope that he feels a sense of grace around him as he's navigating this, even as I am so angry about the decision that he made and the cost of that decision, more suffering is not needed here. The second thing I will say is that I think this is extremely clarifying. Because when I think about all the people I know who are in any kind of protect and serve role, it is difficult for me to imagine anyone, even a superior officer, being able to hold them back from rushing into a situation like that. And so what I think is clarifying, because I bet that everybody who knows and loves the police officers who were in that hall, who are also living with this every day now, I bet everybody who knows them would say the same thing. I could never imagine that they wouldn't have gone in. So it is clarifying to understand that, yes, people are good, but systems are hard and guns are terrifying. Whenever I have conversations about guns and gun violence, often those conversations will include a component of someone saying people can do harm if they wish to do harm. They will use a knife. They will use a vehicle. They will use bombs, whatever. That all true. But if this person had gone into the school with a knife, you better believe that within seconds police officers would have gone in whatever they thought the situation was. It is the gun as a unique weapon that means everybody's life is at risk immediately. Everybody's.  

Sarah [00:11:14] And that particular gun.  

Beth [00:11:15] And that particular gun. That's right. And the speed at which it can do enormous harm. So that's one clarifying piece. Another clarifying piece to me is this whole business of arming teachers. You had 19 professionals with not just guns but defensive gear worried about engaging the shooter. You wanted Mrs. Garcia to do that? That's bananas to me. I think it's also clarifying when someone like Ted Cruz runs around the country talking about locking doors. Is he really saying that the teacher who accidentally left that door open bears more culpability here than the government whose police forces would not go in and end this, than the culture that enabled this young person to buy these arms and go in and do this?  

Sarah [00:12:11] No, no. Finance them. Finance these guns. Didn't even have the money. He was 18 years old. He didn't have the money for those guns. We let him finance them.  

Beth [00:12:22] So I just think there are many, many, places where this situation plus, unfortunately, all of the previous situations, I thought that New York Times cover with authorities say the gunman purchased the firearms legally was brilliant to show we have a body of information to study now and it all dismantles these talking points that we run around in circles through every time one of these things happens.  

Sarah [00:12:52] Yeah, the hardening of the classrooms as a solution to me, it's like do you see now that this is foolish? I'm not saying we should abandon all security protocols, but the idea that that alone is the solution. When my school shooting happened, the first thing they did was give us all IDs. And we all thought at the time, well, that's stupid. Michael would have had an I.D. This hardening of the classrooms. The shooting at my school happened in the foyer. There was no one to lock out and no doors to lock. The same for the other shooting in my community 20 years later. What are we doing? What are we doing? A person that I know and respect in the community said that they watched a hearing from Marshall County. The other shooting in my community recently and they were like, take away the backpacks. And I thought, that's it? The backpacks. The backpacks are the problem. Are you kidding me? The backpacks. That's going to fix it, you guys. You cannot be serious. You cannot be a serious person and think the backpacks, the door, that this is the problem. The guns are the problem, you guys. I don't know how to say it any other way. The guns, the dangerous weapon meant to kill people is the problem here.  

Beth [00:14:17] And let's just add to that. I am focused on the gun as the problem meant for congressional action, because that is the problem that Congress can do something about. Of course, there are other things. Of course, there are cultural issues compounded by having to talk about whether the backpacks are the problem. I was going to talk about in the b-segment, we are scaring our children. We are creating an environment in which our children don't believe that anything is safe or solid for them. And that is unacceptable. But Congress cannot fix the videogames. Congress cannot fix the fact that not every child is in a home with parents who love that child and support that child and are interested in that child and are listening and watching for every signal. And I don't really appreciate as a parent hearing all of these legislators act like parents have to do this all alone either. Or that teachers or that counselors or that anybody has to do this all alone. The gun is the through line that Congress can do something about. And I think it's unconscionable that they don't. Over and over. I think it's unconscionable that they left for Memorial Day recess. If I'm being honest with you, I think they owed it to the American people to sit there and think about this and think about what they can do, what works, and what responsibility they bear. Honestly, I wish President Biden had said Mitch McConnell, Kevin McCarthy, Speaker Pelosi, Leader Schumer, every one of you is going with me. Every time this happens from now on, all of us are going together to face these communities and understand exactly what's happened on the ground and think about our responsibility in the face of it.  

Sarah [00:16:02] That's the point, right? There is a lot that Congress can't control. There's a lot. There's a lot with humans. We are a complicated species. Every single individual interaction, relationship, community, culture, nation, all of it. Yeah, there's a lot going on. So you know the really easy thing we can control for is access to deadly weapons when there's already a lot going on that we can't perfectly control for. That's what this situation shows us. There's a lot going on that we can't control for. Even with the good guys. Even with the good guys. So stop pretending like that's an easy solution. Because it's not. And people will continue to die as long as these deadly weapons are easily accessible. I don't know how to say it any other way. America is now in the middle of a pretty intense Covid surge. It's a very, very, strange surge. The surge feels different than all the rest because there's been this collective, if not unanimous, decision to move on from the pandemic. So despite an increase in cases and hospitalizations and even deaths, there are no new mask mandates. Schedules continue unaffected. And we've entered this like endemic  phase where the virus still exist but the pandemic does it. And it feels weird. In some ways it doesn't. I understand the presence of the vaccine, the presence of treatments. Listen, I took Paxlovid, but it's still feels like we're in this in-between. Listen, let's not fool ourselves. This is not just cold and flu season, particularly since it's May, but it feels like we're caught in this in-between. And so this felt like a good point to talk about what happens next.  

Beth [00:18:16]  And it's weird because I think it's the drive for schedules to be unaffected. Not that schedules actually are unaffected because we have worker shortages everywhere. And that's not just an economic problem. That's a that's a sickness problem. People are sick and they can't come to work. And so schedules are affected all over the place. And you need not be told that if you tried to fly over the weekend. Axios just had this reporting about how few lifeguards are.  

Sarah [00:18:46] I know. I put that in the Good Morning Newsbreak this morning. I thought that was so crazy.  

Beth [00:18:49] It was so interesting. And so, I mean, we want it to be done. We want to put it behind us. And it just keeps coming around to be like, I am not finished with you. So sorry. We had planned to have friends over to celebrate the last day of school and I was really sick that morning and thought, do I have Covid? And then there was like this weird off camera test, but then I tested and I thought, I don't know if the test is picking up all the variants of this anymore. I don't know what this means. So I just canceled it. But I know that there are so many people who are kind of like, well, it's just everywhere. It's a cold. Like, we're just going to go on. And those are hard calls right now. But the death count coming up makes me feel like, what are we doing? Like, can we have a meeting about this? Can we have some guidance? Can someone maybe tell us here are the things that we need you to do general public in the face of this. Because, to me, this is what it is. It's that we are tapped out on individual decision making. And so if we're not going to get collective guidance, we're definitely not going to handle this personally in our homes and families. And I know that is excruciating for people who have high susceptibility to Covid, who are still dealing with long Covid, who have children under five to hear. I get it. I'm trying to just honestly assess where I am and where I see everyone around me. And I think it's that we are just tapped out on the individual decision making front.  

Sarah [00:20:18] Yeah. I don't think that collective guidance is coming, to be honest.  

Beth [00:20:21] I don't think so either.  

Sarah [00:20:21]  I think we're done with that.  

Beth [00:20:22] Because we got a midterm election coming and zero people want to tell us we need you to cancel some things or wear some masks or take precautions.  

Sarah [00:20:32] I don't even see Dr. Fauci anywhere anymore. I think he's gone too. Look, I mean, people are done. I had a family member tell me that someone they know bought a negative test in Mexico so they could come home.  

Beth [00:20:44] Oh, my goodness.   

Sarah [00:20:46] For sure.   

Beth [00:20:48] I just need a minute with that.  

Sarah [00:20:48] Pharmacist was like, oh, I see you're here buying stuff. Would you like a negative test so you can fly?  

Beth [00:20:52] My gosh, no. I cannot sit around...  

Sarah [00:20:56] And they're like, yeah, I had a family member just go about in a mask even though they knew they were COVID positive.  Listen, I'm just telling you the truth. I did not do that. I stayed home. But even the quarantine, like, the five day quarantine, you're still tested positive after those five days. You just are. And so it's just people are out there with it everywhere. Sometimes they know and they're still out there with it. Sometimes they don't or purposely don't want to know. It's a lot. And I think as we move into that stage, I think that's compounded by the changes, the actual peak of the pandemic rod. Like, they are still all around us. Church is different. Work is different. School is different. So are we just going to go back to some of the before time structures? Do we want to leave some of those structures behind forever? Feel like that's what we're trying to ask ourselves right now.  

Beth [00:21:59] Yeah. And all of that is made so much worse by these mass shootings, right? I mean, I was thinking about the police officers in that chain of decision making. Which I got a lot of thoughts about that, we'll have to discuss another time in terms of what it clarifies about the criminal justice system. But I was also just thinking, like every person in every situation carries with them the way that the pandemic has broken us down. Every person. Every person, every system, every institution is saddled with this all the time. And that's why I was so interested in this piece by Jonathan Malesic in the New York Times called My College Students Are Not Okay, where he specifically talks about some of the changes at universities during Covid and whether they should stay or not. And I don't bring this up to have a big college and university conversation because that is their own thing. But I think what he says here applies to almost everything happening around me everywhere right now.  

Sarah [00:23:05] To give you an idea of this piece. He writes, "The pandemic certainly made college more challenging for students. And over the past two years, compassionate faculty members have loosened core structures in response. They have introduced recorded lectures, flexible attendance and deadline policies and lenient grading. In light of the widely reported mental health crisis on campuses, some students and faculty members are calling for those looser standards and remote options to persist indefinitely, even as Covid therapies have made it relatively safe to return to pre-pandemic norms. I also feel compassion for my students, but the learning breakdown has convinced me that continuing to relax standards would be a mistake. Looser standards are contributing to the problem because they make it too easy for students to disengage from classes." And I think that is a very hard question where we change things to make it easier for people because of the pandemic. And that happened in lots of places. You know, there was a big debate in The New York Times because one of their columnists said stop doing online church, people need to be in the pews. Sort of making this case like we did these things to make it easier, but that time has passed. Even in the middle of a surge. And so it's time to put some structures back in place that put that scaffolding we're talking about back in place. And I just think that's incredibly difficult because, again, one, it's presuming that we're moving at the same pace and we're not. Like I said, there's people out there just like this cold and flu season, I'm done. There are people because they're immunocompromised or because they have little kids that haven't been vaccinated yet. Or for a lots of different reasons are still in lockdown. And so how do we even have this conversation when everybody's in such different places? I think that's part of the reason this is so hard.  

Beth [00:24:52] Yes. Also, I read this piece and I also read a piece in The Times where they surveyed 362 school counselors. And two things jumped out from these two pieces to me. In the college student piece, he talked about how even when you're in-person with students right now, you look out into the classroom and the students look like they are on zoom with their camera off. They are totally disengaged. And the school counselors described students as frozen socially and emotionally at the age they were when the pandemic started.  And I was reading all these quotes, and I thought I could say the very same thing about adults. Even in a meeting lately where everybody looks like they're really there for the meeting. No. When you go to church right now, you can look out and see. And I find myself like wandering during church services mentally the way that I might during a zoom call. We have become so accustomed to experiencing everything solo. Or experiencing it solo, but with our families. And so trying to both be the worker or the congregant or the student and the mom and the wife and the dog owner and the person who has to answer the door when the UPS comes. So just presence is hard right now. And and I mention these things because here is what jumps out at me.  

[00:26:21] I think we're having these conversations about academic standards and lost learning time and lost productivity in workplaces because everyone does need that structure to meet those goals. Those feel to me like versions of a conversation about productivity when the giant need right now is about relationship. And so I didn't read this piece about college students and think, no, what they really need is to have harder deadlines for turning their papers in. I think what we need is like a shift in focus for a while unlike what the standards are. How is it that we bring our resources to here's how we pay attention again. You know, here's how we meet each other in a space and all agree about the purpose of being in that space. And maybe that means that some of the spaces are smaller for a while. Maybe it means we have more agreements about putting our phones away in those spaces or whatever it is. I don't have the answers here, but I just feel like it is the re-engagement that's missing. I'm not worried about what reading level people are on yet. I will be. There will be a time for that. But it seems to me like in this dimension where we are, it is much more about like, are you alert, are you here? Do I have your attention? Have I broken the screen spell with you for a minute? That can take a lot of thought.  

Sarah [00:28:00] I do feel like it's two different conversations. I feel like our conversation around kids is different from adults. I don't feel like the adults I'm around -- I certainly don't feel like this myself -- are frozen in their pre-pandemic level. Everybody I know went through some pretty dramatic changes over Covid. People got divorced. People got sober. Or people's drinking got worse. People became like really dedicated to their physical fitness. People quit jobs. People change careers. But I think you're right. I think it's like the adults, because it was within their power, made some pretty dramatic changes. A lot of us did.  

Beth [00:28:40] Not all great. Like, as you were saying. Some of them are very detrimental.  

Sarah [00:28:45] Not all great. But the kids and the teenagers didn't have that freedom, right? They didn't have the capacity to say, I want to do everything different now. I think whether you're talking about individual change as a strategy to deal with a pandemic or if you're talking about that freezing as a way to deal with the pandemic. I think you're right that it's all very individual and we have forgotten how to be together. We have forgotten how to be engaged with our institutions, because I think, for better or for worse, people felt abandoned by the institutions. People felt abandoned. I'm sure kids and students in a lot of ways and a lot of parts of the country felt abandoned by their school systems. Even in our school system, we weren't out of school for that long of a time. So my kids were out from what, March to May? That's a long time. Three months at the end of the 2020 school year and then probably about three months in the fall in the 2021 school year and then, you know, shortened school weeks. So in the spectrum of school closures, I think we were probably pretty moderate.  

[00:29:59] But there were so many other changes. My son, Griffin, he's going to the eighth grade, like, doesn't use paper anymore. All of his assignments are online and the deadlines surrounding those assignments are fluid, or at least it feels like that. We're in this, like, perpetual missing assignment purgatory.  And you can feel his frustration. I think he feels like the goal was always shifting on him. You could sort of see it when they did testing again for the first time. The kids  felt a lot of pressure around that. So I think they're in this very complicated relationship with the school system. The teachers certainly are. And there's this missing sense of like, well, we are in this together. Because I think a threat makes sense, right?  You you protect your own, right? You go a little insular. When your life is on the line or your family's life is on the line, you start to make decisions that protect them and protect you. And that is your orientation to the world. Is there's a threat and you have to protect your people.  

[00:31:15] And so maybe it's not building scaffolding, but really dismantling that threat-based scaffolding that needs to happen. And you see it in workplaces, you see it in public interactions this, like, it's me against the world. And I feel like, like you said, less than like reading standards or strict deadlines. Although I think kids do respond not demands but expectations. I think they do respond to that and there might be some need for that. Even in the middle of this strange surge, even knowing that in a weird way, because everybody is out there making those decisions that you might not make, I think we at least have to start talking about and recognizing that threat scaffolding that we all builds around ourselves.  

Beth [00:32:18] I like thinking about that threat scaffolding. It feels vastly complicated to me to try to untangle that. Especially for kids in light of current events, because I feel like we're just increasing the pile of threats, the type of threats, the quantity, the danger of those threats. What I have learned from the four years that we have been working together full time and creating a business around the podcast, is that it is a good mix of hard deadline and soft deadline that makes for a good workplace. You know, we have some very hard deadlines in terms of production schedule. Every single day. Multiple times, every single day, we've got some really hard deadlines. And then we also have to work hard to build systems for those softer deadlines where you're thinking about longer term projects, bigger picture things, topics that are going to require more research. And then we have learned to wrap around all of that this real sense of flexibility in relationship. So hard deadline has to be met, but it doesn't always have to be met by the same person. Some hard deadlines are going to have to be moved, even though they're hard deadlines because something else takes priority. And it has felt relatively easy to sink into that as a team because we're a small team. And what I've been thinking about is how can you have that kind of system in larger spaces where there are some hard deadlines? I think that's maybe what this professor is talking about. Some things have to be real. There have to be goals and milestones. You have to feel a sense of reward when you meet them. We have a need for that, right? But then some things have to be more lenient longer term and then relationship has to be prioritized above all of that.  

[00:34:19] I think that's really difficult in a classroom. Like, one of the things that I do not have a lot of nuance about, if I'm just being totally transparent, is the amount of time my two daughters have spent in elementary school during their school day on screens. I do not like it. And when I have gone into the elementary school as a substitute teacher and seen the amount of time that kids are spending of their day programmatically on screens, I do not like it. And I understand why schools made those investments in technology. I understand that technology is a way to help differentiate learning across the very wide variety of skills that are walking into your classroom every day. I understand that this is not a decision individual teachers are making. And I don't like it and I think it is the wrong direction. At the same time, those classes are big. I don't know in a class of 25 first graders -- and that's not huge -- how you build that sense of these are hard deadlines, these are our soft deadlines, but relationship wraps around everything. I don't know. And I don't know how you do that in a company of 50,000 people or in a government. But that feels to me like maybe the scaffolding that could help us start to move toward that sort of diagram of like how we operate here.  

Sarah [00:35:51] Yeah. I mean, because the pandemic just played at the sense that we really are each other's enemies. You could be carrying a virus that could kill me and my family. We really didn't need that. We did not need that in America. We had plenty of that.  But I do think with all of this, with gun safety, with January 6th, with moving out of the pandemic, this is something we have to start asking ourselves. Like, how do we dismantle the sense that we are a threat to one another? And how do we start to build the sense that we are in it together, that we are building something together, be it in a school, be it in a church community? You know, we are starting to have conversations for our other summer series. I'm thinking about the January 6th trial as our first summer series. And then we're going to have another one at the end of June really built around our book Now What? And that's what we're trying to talk. We have really generous members of our audience that they're sitting down and having longer form conversations with us. And I kind of feel like that's what we're talking about. How do we start to build that sense that we're in it together in our families, in our partnerships, in our communities, in our schools, in our jobs, in our churches and it's long, hard, emotional work. And after a time where we all felt like we were spent emotionally. I still keep thinking about your Instagram post, together is all we have. And that is true in the middle of this weird surge. And it's true in the middle of mourning those children in Texas. And it is going to be true as we walk through the January 6th hearings. Like, that's what that scaffolding is built on. Is the sense that we are all we have. We are all each other have.  

Beth [00:37:50] I think embedded in your really good framework of how do we stop perceiving each other as threats is this difficult subquestion of how do we sometimes acknowledge that we are threats to each other and still have a sense of generosity around that? It may be that we are going to have to postpone some events again and distance from each other again. If not around Covid, around something else in our lifetimes. And there are moments because of guns, because of all kinds of other weapons and fears and choices, where we are threats to each other in some respects and not all of them. And how do we figure that out? How do we say in this way we threaten each other? But in all of these ways, togetherness is still our best solution. And we're willing to be generous about it. We're willing to be generous about it in the sense of some personal sacrifice, in the sense of being willing to all march in a direction that we later decide was a mistake, in the sense of my idea wasn't accepted by the group here, but I'm going to get on board with the group's idea about how to handle this. That to me is where we are really struggling. I mean, I was thinking this morning listening to Start Here, ABC News podcast. And they were talking to flight attendants. And these flight attendants were just like, "I'm worn out. I cannot do this job in a mask anymore. I cannot fight with people about masks anymore." And I thought, I wonder where we'd be right now if we hadn't thought about it? Like, what if masks had just stayed a very neutral issue throughout this whole pandemic? Where would we be? I have no idea. I can't even imagine that world now. And that's like the question that I'm rolling around as I think about dismantling that threat perception. How can we be a threat in one way but not in others?  

Sarah [00:39:47] I don't know if it's a threat. It's just that what human interaction in a relationship is like. There's always going to be conflict. There's always going to be anger or sadness or loneliness. And it's like because we all feel so wronged and we're all still angry about what happened during Covid, our standards are even higher. Like, we've just lost the sense that people are going to piss us off constantly and consistently until we die. The people we love, the people we live community with, the people we are raising and are married to. Like, it's just we're going to keep pissing each other off which is why there shouldn't be guns laying around all the time. For what it's worth. And so I think the question is less for me. How do we think about that interpersonally and more how to our institutions, specifically our government, do what they can to put that scaffolding in place with the understanding that, of course, we're going to continue to piss people off. And so how do our institutions sort of finally and forever leave behind this mid-twentieth century ideal where we were all getting along. And which is false at the time. False now. But we I think we had that narrative. We had this narrative that we were in it together. And the important things we agreed on that that's just how it was and that's how it should ever be. But as our country grows more and more diverse and we continue in this sort of multicultural experiment, like, let's just let that go. Let's let that go.  

[00:41:32] That's not really how it was then. Although I do think that because of the media environments. That was definitely the perception, right? The media environment was more tightly controlled and more monolithic. And so that was the perception. Well, that's not where we are anymore. And so if we take that complexity as a given, how can our institutions especially post Covid, with the real weaknesses fully exposed, start building back stronger. That's what I was really struck by even in the lifeguard thing. He was like, how do we get in front of this? The global supply chain, we're not going to meet the end of the road and it's like we're over that part. That'll never be an issue again. I mean, I hate to break it to us, but that's not coming. And the staffing and the immigration and the school issues, like, instead of waiting for it to get better, how do we build these institutions back stronger so that they're ready for the next challenge? So that they're not pretending like the next? Like we fixed all the challenges that will ever be, but that they are ready for whatever comes next.  

Beth [00:42:46] I don't think there's a finally in forever in any of that. I was thinking about how our friend Kelly Harp said that every small business has problems. You just have to decide what kind of problems you want to have and hope that you get mostly the problems that you want to have. And I think that's applicable to these institutions as well. It's not that they're going to build back so strong that they're ready for anything and the work is going to be done and then we just kind of rely on them when that comes up. You know, it's not that. And we are all part of all of that. So the interpersonal matters a lot in making that happen on the institutional level, and it's all a matter of prioritization too. What step do you take first in that process and what step are you willing to live with on the road to that process? If I have a frustration with this piece about college students, it is that the conclusion is sort of we should just go back to the way it was before. And I don't think that's correct. And I don't think it's correct in a college classroom or an elementary school or on the governmental level. And I don't think the answer can be, well, we've got to do the biggest bill we possibly can, and only that is acceptable because all these challenges are so urgent. Like, okay, we've tried that stuff now it's like one piece at a time. Even on gun violence, I would like to see Congress take this one bill at a time. Raise the age, have everybody vote on it up or down. You know, raise the age to buy firearms, incentivize state red flag laws. Just one piece at a time. That seems to be what's available right now.  

Sarah [00:44:21] They don't like to do that.  

Beth [00:44:22] They don't like to do it.  

Sarah [00:44:23] They don't like to vote on it one at a time. They like to get it as one vote.  

Beth [00:44:26] I don't like to tackle one issue at a time with my children or my household budget or projects around here, but that is what is available. So that's what we got to do.  

Sarah [00:44:36] Well, one issue at a time, one day at a time, whatever our post-Covid scaffolding is most likely what's available to all of us. And we appreciate you forever and always join in in our conversations here at Pantsuit Politics as we try to do that. And outside politics today, Erin wrote in and she said, "I would like to hear more about how Sarah prioritizes plans and budgets for family travel." This is something that is important to me and my husband, and it feels like there's just now a real possibility for our family somewhat post-pandemic me returning to full time work income and youngest child is now five. You know I love to talk about travel. It's my favorite thing. Somebody yesterday asked me -- we were talking about our trip to europe -- she was like, "Do you hire somebody?" I was like, no, do it all myself. Me and Rick Steves we're in it to win it. So I will say this, my travel is definitely changed post-pandemic. And that I plan it very far in advance. You guys took the opposite approach with your Disney. I feel like you went to Disney in like two weeks time. It kind of stressed me out.  

Beth [00:45:46] We did. We also got help, though. I don't want to do it. No, thank you.  

Sarah [00:45:50] It's the opposite approach for me. So I don't hire somebody, but I do it very far in advance. So it was beginning of January. And we knew we were going to Utah in  April. I had planned that in October. My son was like, "We haven't gone to Utah and you want to plan the summer?" I was like, "This is how this works now." Like, if you want to do stuff books up. So I've been in a like 6 to 8 month out planning period for my vacations since the pandemic because I just realized you have to. There's nowhere to stay. We have some friends that are also going to Europe at the same time as us. Now they have friends there, which is totally different scene. But she's like, "We haven't really decided where we're going to do this or this." And inside my head I was just like screaming, "What do you mean? It's in a month!" So I would say probably a year out decide where I think we're going to go. And then some probably eight to 10 months, six if I'm slacking, decide on the structure. And that's always the most labor intensive parts of our trip, because I have this urge to hit everything. But now I'm very good. Like, when I'm planning, I want to hit everything I want to hit. But then when I get there, if we miss something, we have a refrain in the Holland family, which is we'll just see it next time. Got to save something for next time.  

[00:47:07] You always have to say something for next time. Even though in my head I'm going, I'm not probably going to come back here again. It makes me feel better. And so I spent a lot of time putting the day to day itinerary together. That took a lot of time in the Pacific Northwest because we wanted to pick up five national parks, not as much time in Utah because that's like a road trip itinerary.  Lots of people do. It's pretty settled. But Europe was very different because I didn't want to be hot the entire time, but I still wanted to see a little bit of Italy and get to Paris because I just love Paris. And so I spend a lot of time on that part. Like, putting together that day to day itinerary and booking the hotels and the air travel. I kind of spread it out over the months, but it's a lot of work. Look, there are times where it feels like it's a part time job that I'm just that's what I'm doing. I'm not reading a book. I'm not watching TV. My evenings are spent planning my trip. Did you ever enjoy that stuff or you just you never want to do that part?  

Beth [00:48:05] I never want to do that.  

Sarah [00:48:06] Ever? I was like when my mother and my grandmother and I went to Europe, they will laugh and make fun of me because I was like maniacal about our schedule. So I've been like this my whole life. At 18-years-old, I was doing this.  

Beth [00:48:17] It feels like another shift of work to me. I am really feeling, I would say the past two years and especially the past six months or so, like when we are done with work, I want to be done with the computer. Done. I just I am so tired of looking at a screen. The idea of doing research and putting a travel plan together just feels like another shift of work. No, thank you. When I am thinking about vacation, I just want it to be like rest and restoration and spontaneity because regular life doesn't have a ton of room for spontaneity. So I love to just go and see what we feel like and what we find. And that brings joy for me.  

Sarah [00:49:00] That makes me want to come out of my skin. I cannot. Listen, these are not relaxing trips. Let's be real clear. This is not rest and relaxation. These are not vacations. These are trips.  

Beth [00:49:11] And I don't really like that.  

Sarah [00:49:12] . But I find those restorative. Like, I feel like my brain just needs a lot of input. And so I get to a point in my physical environment where I just need visual input that is different than what I see every day. I need to eat things that are different than what I eat all the time in my home and in my community. I need to see people that look different than the people I'm around all the dang time every day. Now I love those people, but it's like I want to see different trees. I want to see different flowers. I want to see different architecture. I want to eat different food. It feels like I'm in a rut.  And my brain is like, help, I need some input. It feels restorative. Even if it's in a very  intense trip. Like Utah was intense, man. We were hiking, but I felt energized and restored when we get back. And I do build in time. I don't I don't get back from a trip like this and we go back to school and work the next day. We always try to get back and build in a little time to like recalibrate and rest and settle back in. But also I think if your youngest child is now five, you're like really set and golden. My kids are really good travelers. They eat everything, raw oysters, escargot, you name it. They've eaten it. They love it. They're little snobby about their sleeping arrangements, but we've been working on that. But they're fun and they like to do it and they like to see things. And my husband and I make a really good travel partnership. Like he does the hiking planning, I do the meal planning. I mean, I do most of the planning. It's just, you know, I think I'm also like that complete as drive. Like, I like I want to see and check it off. Like I have a travel book where I literally check off these like top 100 sites you're supposed to see. Like, there's just something about my personality that I love the idea of I want to see it all. I want to see everything the world has to offer. I want to see it all. I can't help myself. I guess I'm just greedy.  

Beth [00:51:12] No, I just think that a lot of this comes down to a fundamental difference between the two of us. Because input for you is novel, right? It has to be a new flower, a new place, new food. Input for me is people and their stuff. And so every day is new because every day someone has a new crisis or a new problem or a need for me to fill. And so I don't want any of that on vacation. And if I take on the responsibility of planning the vacation, then suddenly the vacation is just another day where I'm trying to figure everything out and take care of everybody and keep everybody feeling good and happy about it. And that's why I like to be gone and for it to be easy. Like to have a moment when everybody's just okay, because look at this beautiful ocean. Look at these comfortable beds. Look at this pool. Like everybody's just okay for a while. And so my brain can actually come into itself instead of being like a psychological short order cook, which is how I do pretty much all day, every day. So we just have different needs.  

Sarah [00:52:14] There's no psychological, short ordering  going on over here at Sarah and Holland's. No, that's definitely... Yeah, I see that. That makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, we do a little bit of that.  Listen, know that whatever you're seeing on my Instagram. I have yelled at a child. Now my husband and I almost never sort of have conflict. We've traveled enough and we understand each other enough. And I've gotten a lot better at doing the, like, we don't have to check everything off today. Like, I plan it like that. But once I get there, I've gotten a lot better at being like, okay, we just won't do that right now. Everybody is tired. We can go back. Listen, that's taken a lot of internal work. 20-year-old Sarah, let's be honest, probably all the way through like 30 to 33-year-old Sarah was like, no, I don't care how miserable everybody is. We're going to check this off. I've gotten much better about that.  I'll just be like, okay, well, we'll just won't do that today. And I build in a lot of rest and I build in a lot of downtime. Okay, maybe I don't build in a lot of downtime, but I build in some downtime. So I've gotten better at that, like, you know, not slogging them through like they're good little soldiers because that does not make for a fun trip. But still there's an inevitable, like, "I don't want to sleep with Amos tonight." There's a lot of that. I got to figure out how to fix that. I need to hear from our audience about how they fix the perpetual who's going to sleep where every night in vacation.  

Beth [00:53:32] I love how you use the word fix about that. Yeah, no, but like, there's.  

Sarah [00:53:36] Yeah. No, there's got to be a system where you're just like, this is how it works and then we're never going to talk about it again.  

Beth [00:53:40] I'm sure there is. That has [Crosstalk] a lot of time with people were this is how it works and they're never going to talk about.  

Sarah [00:53:45]  This is the kid, this is the system and we're not going to talk about it anymore. But there's inevitable sort of struggles. I read an article a long time ago. I think we've even talked about it probably on the show or the nuance live about there are people who go on the same vacation every year. The same vacation, period. That's what they do. That's it. They have a lot of anticipatory pleasure because they know what's going to happen. They know exactly what's going to happen, but they don't have a lot of remembering. Like, memory pleasure. Because the memories blur together because it's not a distinct experience. And so because I want both, I've created a system where I can have both. I have an enormous amount of anticipatory pleasure about our travel. I don't have a lot of anxiety about something. Nicholas does because he's a six. Something go wrong, we'll figure it out. Like, somebody will get mad, we'll figure it out. But I'm very excited about all the things we'll see. I look a lot into the different -- that's why the spontaneity thing I think bothers me is because I feel like I can't have anticipatory pleasure if I don't know what's going to happen. But then I have a lot of post memory pleasure because we go somewhere new and we see a different national park and we're going to a new place every time. And so I think I try to think about both of those avenues of happiness around our travel. I don't know if I answered Erin's question.  

Beth [00:55:11] Erin, the answer to your question is it's a lot of work and Sarah does it because she likes it, but it's a lot of work.  

Sarah [00:55:17] It is. But, you know, it's interesting though. First of all, the real reality is it is less work for me because I can just ask all of you and then I do try to share everything I learn from our audience.  I put up my itineraries on my personal Instagram and I try to share all the answers, but that does make it a lot less work because everybody's like, just go here. I'm like, oh, perfect. That's where the good pie is in capitol Reef National Park, that's the information I needed.  

Beth [00:55:41] Now, this illustrates how much you like it, because filtering through all those responses is still a lot of work. It's still a lot of people stuff coming in. See, for me, when I ask a question like that on Instagram, later I'm always like, oh, what kind of feelings are coming in at me with these questions? People are feeling judgy about this and people feel if I don't do this, they're going to be offended. Like, there's so much coming in and you don't take in any of that.  

Sarah [00:56:06] No, I don't take in any of that.  

Beth [00:56:07] Even just organizing it is still like a lot of work. And I think it's just when we love something, we can do it. That's what I see with you in travel.  

Sarah [00:56:16] Yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. We did want to tell you that every Friday we send out the Pantsuit Politics newsletter. We contain multitudes, and so does our newsletter. We share reflections on the season and show that we don't share anywhere else. Beth shared some of her favorite articles and products a few weeks ago, we shared the most beautiful note from a listener about her story of late term pregnancy loss. And this week, we'll be sharing our summer survival toolkit with a few ideas to help you make it through the summer, with or without kids. So you can sign up at the link in our shownotes if you want to subscribe to our newsletter. We really appreciate that. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. Until next time, keep it nuanced y'all.  

Beth [00:57:04] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:57:10] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:57:16] Our show is listener-supported special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:57:20] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliot. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handly. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs.  

[00:57:38] The Kriebs. Lori LaDow. Lily McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers Karin true. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:57:56] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  




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