The Despair of Another School Shooting

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:00] Guns are dangerous. And it's like I feel like I have to start from there. Like, can we agree that guns are really dangerous? Even in the best possible circumstances, they're meant to do harm. It's like even that most basic reality feels like it's up for a debate.  

[00:00:27] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:28] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:30] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:49] Hello. Thank you so much for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. It's a new episode. It feels like an old episode in some ways because we are again going to be talking about gun violence again in the context of a school shooting, a massacre of children and two teachers, and many more people injured and many lives affected forever. But it is a conversation that must continue. And so we will continue it today. Before we do, we want to thank you very much for spending time with our new book. Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything). You're going to hear from Sarah as we go into our gun conversation, the beginning of Chapter eight, where she describes her experience as a gun violence survivor. But it's been really rewarding to hear from people who are reading the book and using it in conversations like conversations about guns, where they are trying to find ways to connect with people around them, trying to find their way through relationships that have been badly strained by politics. And so we're just really appreciative of you allowing us into your lives in this way.  

Sarah [00:01:57] We are also thrilled and honored that now what was featured in Ann Bogel's Modern Mrs. Darcy Summer Reading Guide. If you don't read The Summer Reading Guide, what are you doing? I get it. And I get it early as a patron of Ann's, because you've got to get on those hold list at the library real fast when she picks a book or you won't get it before the summer is over. So I wrote on Instagram, "If somebody had told me 10 years ago, 'Oh, your second book will be in the Summer Reading Guide,' I would have called that person a liar." So it was so thrilling and such an honor, and we're so grateful for her. And just for the Summer Reading Guide generally. And if you are reading, our community engagement manager, Maggie, is doing a book club on Instagram for Now What on Thursdays with some of our launch team members. So you can follow us at Pantsuit Politics to join that. And you'll hear more from our great launch team and Now What summer series where we are talking with them about the connections between the book and the in real life conversations they're having. So get excited for that.  

Beth [00:03:05] Sarah, people who have listened for a number of years have been really kind in checking in on you this week because of your experience with gun violence. And I wondered if instead of asking you to tell that story again fresh, it might help to just hear it as you wrote it out in such a beautiful way for our book.  

Sarah [00:03:26] Yes, I am happy to do that and share that. And there will be lots of tears, so just prepare accordingly. Chapter eight. National Politics. "You deal with your pain your way. I deal with my pain mine. I'm a victim of gun violence. In 1997, a freshman at my high school opened fire on a prayer circle gathered before the bell rang. He killed three of my fellow classmates and wounded six others. For years, it was hard to call myself a victim because I wasn't among the nine people physically wounded that day. I wasn't even in the school building, but had just entered it when my classmates flooded out in shock. Since I thought I didn't have any real recovery or healing to deal with, I channeled my emotions into anger at a system I felt had failed to protect me and my classmates. When I was in college, my mom and I flew to Washington, D.C. for the Million Mom March, calling for stricter gun laws. I went to law school and worked on Capitol Hill all the time continuing to advocate for gun control and all the time continuing to watch the list of mass shootings grow and grow.  

[00:04:40] On the 20th anniversary of the shooting at my high school, I gathered with several of my classmates. We all shared our stories, our grief and our trauma. We began to connect more on Facebook as well, and I realized that one of my classmates was a passionate gun owner and advocate. There was absolutely no way for me to be angry at her. I had listened to her stories from that day. I knew that her own child had been attending another local high school that recently experienced a shooting just two decades after our own. She was experiencing multigenerational school shootings. How could I angrily discard her as abhorrent as I found her political positions, as uncaring in the face of violence and death? The trauma of that day and how it affected both of us is more complicated than our policy positions on gun control. It took me a long time and a lot of therapy to realize that I was also a victim on December 1st, 1997. Being traumatized at such a young age taught me that life is finite and precarious.  

[00:05:38] And it also left me with intense anxiety that someone I love will die violently and tragically. Being traumatized by someone who was also very young taught me that villainizing those who do evil things isn't the path to understanding, and also left me angry at people who refused to see their impact on others. For so long, I felt immense pressure to do something for my classmates who lost their lives. I thought that was gun control, but under that rubric I had failed. Under that rubric, I care about my classmates and my friend who opposes gun control doesn't. Even though one of the victims that day was her best friend. So I've had to abandon that rubric, not because I don't still believe that real gun control is essential and could save lives. I do. I just can't tie my humanity or anyone else's to their position on it. I couldn't see my way out of the maze of my own trauma for so long. How can I possibly judge the way others are lost?"  

Beth [00:06:38] Thank you. So we take this up again in the context of the shooting at Robb Elementary in Ulvade Texas. I was reading about Uvalde this morning. It's about 60 miles from the southern border. It is a town of 15,200 people. So there are people who lost more than one relative in this shooting. More than 40 percent of the people who live there have lived in the same house for at least 30 years. You can just imagine how something like this reverberates in a place so connected. Nineteen students and two teachers, Mrs. Garcia and Mrs. Morales are dead, as is the person who did this. The person who did this did not have a criminal record and was not diagnosed with a mental illness. But there were many, many, signs that this shooter, like so many school shooters before him, had lost his way and felt isolated and angry. One of our listeners who works in schools sent us a message where she talked about ghost boys. That there are so many boys walking around in schools that are almost invisible to other people or are isolated because they are in some way uncomfortable to be around. And that is the person who ends up doing something like this one day. So I had just been trying to sit with those facts and also acknowledge that I have had a hard time crawling out of my own emotions with this one. I have just felt kind of paralyzed in thinking about my own kids and these families and how intractable this problem feels.  

Sarah [00:08:28] After every shooting there are inevitable conversations about the politics of legislation on guns. And I feel, like so many Americans, as if I'm being held hostage. The situation, the politics surrounding any changes that could reduce. The likelihood of these types of mass killings seems so intractable. It seems like it doesn't change. And I think what I've just really been mired in this time, it's the politics of places like Uvalde. The people of this community sent a representative whose tweets on guns have gone around and around on Twitter. The people of my community who have experienced two school shootings are just as conservative on guns as they were in 1997. Did not change their politics to have children in their community murdered. It will most likely not change the politics of Uvalde, Texas. What does that mean? What are we supposed to do with that? Because the politics that have to change is the politics of the conservative right. That's the barrier. That's what won't budge. And it feels so hard to think about that. Like, you cannot put yourself in a place. You know, I understand the anger. I understand the outrage. But often the people you're angry about have experienced this in a way you haven't.  

[00:10:33] So what I'm trying to name in that chapter, how can I be mad at my friend?  She is in a different place than I am on this issue. But it's not because she doesn't care. It's not because she doesn't hurt. It's not because she hasn't experienced grief or tragedy or loss when it comes to gun violence. And I just don't know what to do with that. I don't know what to do with that. And it does feel stuck.  When we think about our own kids and the fact that Sandy Hook was ten years ago. My eldest child is 13. Never sent him to elementary school. Without that in my head, my friends and I were joking about moving to Canada, as we always do. And I thought, what would that be like? What would it be like not to send my children to school every day and think, what if they die? What would that feel like? I don't even know. And probably because of my life experiences, I never will. So many people across this country will never know what that's like because of gun violence. These objects wreck such havoc.  

[00:11:52] Just like cars, right? Just like cars. I hate cars, too. I think about this because of my own life experience. Every time I get in the car and I understand that the reality of human life is that we cannot rid ourselves of these dangerous objects. But it feels like we're just being held hostage by them. Because we can't do everything, we do nothing. And I feel numb. I feel depressed. You know, I did the things.  I went to my field offices for my senator and my representatives. I'm going to set up an appointment. I see all you doing it. It's literally the only thing that has brought me the smallest amount of light and hope is hearing from all of you. I went to the office. I showed up with my body and my face and my voice. I did it. You know, watching like Jamie golden share her -- coaching people how to call. Hearing from people say, I've never done it before. I've never contacted my representative, but I did it this time. And still it just feels so impossibly hard.  

Beth [00:13:30] So I felt pretty stuck all day yesterday. And then last night, as I was going to bed, I heard the local news reporting a big jump in the stock of Smith and Wesson. And that, it turns out, was the key that unlocked a cavern of anger in me and where I started to feel like I am ready to turn my brain back on and think about this, because that incentive is so perverse that the murder of children in their elementary school is profitable. That is so perverse. It cannot be that anyone is okay with that. Even the most strident Second Amendment person would have to acknowledge that the Constitution does not guarantee you a right to profit off mass murder. And there have to be things that we can do. There have to be places we can agree. I struggle with the minority rule argument because on the one hand I see this polling like everyone else and think, no, the vast majority of America is on the same page about at least some steps that we can take here. And then I see the numbers that 20 million guns were sold in 2020, that 18.5 Million guns were sold in 2021, that we have 120 guns per 100 people in this country. We are ahead of Yemen in the midst of a civil war in terms of how many firearms per capita are owned by a lot. It's not even close.  

[00:15:01] And then as you look at those statistics and you see how many guns we have equaling how many gun crimes we have, equaling how many gun deaths we have, that 57 percent separates American children and teenagers from their risk of dying young versus children and teenagers in other advanced countries. And that guns are a very important reason that firearms are the leading cause of death for kids over age one in 2020. That that statistic gets infinitely worse when you isolate two black children. It's just outrageous. It's unacceptable. And I know that those steps that we have such clear public agreement around universal background checks and minimum age to buy guns, licensing and registration. I know those won't prevent everything. I'm aware that we could stop selling guns forever today and still be sitting on this massive stockpile that would still cause gun death. But I think what I am feeling so desperate for and what I see in all of the social media posts and everyone calling and writing and showing up, is just like some symbol that we want to try. Just some ethic of care.  

[00:16:20] I was writing to Thomas Massie, who is my representative in Congress, unfortunately. And he is known best in the United States for his Christmas card where he posed with his family, all holding assault weapons. And I thought, what is a reasonable ask of a person like this? A person who doesn't believe government should do anything? And so I started my note to him by just saying, could you please demonstrate an ethic of care about gun violence? Could you stop putting weapons of war on your Christmas cards? Just as a start, could we stop glorifying this type of violence? Because I do think as intractable as the politics of it feel, they are intractable because the culture of it is so deeply embedded. And that is what I'll take anything on. You know, if he never votes for reasonable gun regulation, if he would just stop sending that on his Christmas card, I would feel like at least we care a little bit. We care enough to change something that requires no sacrifice whatsoever from us.  

Sarah [00:17:32] Yeah. The culture feels very, very, hard. Every once in a while I reread the case study of my own school shooting that several researchers did based on lots and lots of interviews. That taught me a lot of things I didn't know. I told myself for years that Michael Carnell was mentally ill. And that's what happened. But the reality is that he took guns to school twice. That he showed guns and told people he was going to do bad things with the guns, people his own age. Several times. And that he had easy and prolific access to firearms. That's the reality. I'm so angry. A member of my family posted this, "It's not a gun problem, it's a people problem. That we're godless." And I waited a few days to respond and then finally was like, "You lived here. My community was not and continues not to be godless. The shooting at your high school. The high school you attended took place in a prayer circle. How dare you?" Like, How dare you imply that the people of these communities just didn't love God enough. That the people of America just don't love God enough. That's the problem. We're all broken.  

[00:19:12] We are broken. But when broken people have access to guns, then it's dangerous. We're not going to love the brokenness away. We're not going to love the loneliness and the suicidal ideation and the violence and the isolation away. There is no cure for that. All we can do is make it less dangerous. It's not all we can do. We sure as hell can address it a lot better than we are. Even in my own community, there was another incidence where a kid was making violent threats in front of many, many, peers and only one of them reported it. And then I think, of course, we're stuck in this situation where people don't want to report or people blow it off. One, because it is the reality of the human brain that we don't want to think it will happen to us, that we don't think we're this close to someone who will act out violently, even in a community that's had two freaking school shootings. That we protect ourselves from that reality because it is too painful. It's too hard. It's too hard. Trust me. I know. I wake up every day. I don't like the reality. But every day I think, what if my kid gets shot at school? It's hard. It's impossibly hard. I get it. It's awful.  

[00:20:34] And also we create a situation where people, not only don't want to believe it because it's hard and it's dark and it's awful, but because they are casting that human being in their life into a pit of evil. They're evil, right? They're evil. They're monsters. Of course you're not going to report someone. Of course, you're not going to say I think this person is an evil monster. We do this all the damn time and we wonder why we don't get different results. We do it with sexual abuse. We do it with violence. We do it with threats. We act surprised that the human beings don't want to throw away the other human beings in their lives. Because you're opening up a whole can of worms if you report somebody for a threat like that. And we all know it. We all know it, so we say they don't mean it. They don't mean it. We protect ourselves from that reality. We do it all the time. And there's a part of it that is just human. I'm not even mad. Like, I get it. It's just a human reaction.  

[00:21:45] Because as broken and scared as we are about all of this, we're still protected from the reality of it. The truest thing I read after Uvelde, and I think someone's made this point before, is that we're going to need an Emmett Till situation to get everyone's attention. The American people need to understand the grotesque physical reality. Unfortunately, I think probably in a physical way of what an AR-15 does to a fourth grader before anything will change. Wasn't enough for them to die because all we see is pictures of people standing outside of buildings crying. We don't see the reality of that. Can you even fathom? Can you fathom what those law enforcement AMT encountered when they stepped into that single classroom? In your darkest, most desperate moments, can you even fathom that? I don't think we can. I don't think we can.  

Beth [00:22:55] I was reading the story of one of the first responders whose daughter was dead. He was treating another child and the child said, "My best friend was shot." And he said, "What's her name?" And it was his daughter. It's his own daughter. And they're telling us what that gun did to those bodies. That some of these kids had to be identified by DNA because of the damage that was done to them. I mean, it is horrific. And to the mental health question, I just would like us to stop throwing that out as like a get out of jail free chip when asked about gun regulation. I also think we just need a measure of humility about where we are with mental health. Because when people talk about mental health in this context, I hear them saying, well, if something is diagnosable, then perhaps we need a restriction in place. But there are all kinds of diagnosable mental health issues that do not increase someone's propensity to violence. And there are all kinds of factors going on with a person that indicate a readiness and willingness and desire to perpetuate violence that are not going to be diagnosed.  

[00:24:18] So what are we talking about? And what kind of systems can be in place so that you report someone without ending their lives and the potential for a good future where it actually feels like help, where help feels like help instead of punishment? Because that's the problem right now, right? You flag an issue with someone and what they get doesn't feel like help. It feels like punishment. And who are the helpers who can actually help in a situation like this? It's not the people who are already overloaded with jobs that they can barely sustain in professions that are filled with burnout and people aren't paid enough to do those jobs and absorb all of that trauma. You know, you think about to the people who talk about America as a godless nation, well, help me understand how churches are to step up when what we are hearing about churches right now does not indicate that these are safe spaces with trustworthy adults who can come around an 18-year-old and make a difference. I had lunch with my pastor this week and was just thinking about, sitting across from her, this is a person that I would trust with absolutely anything. Who I know loves my children, would do anything to help them be healthy, happy human beings. And juxtaposing that with the report out of the Southern Baptist Convention, a church I grew up in, it is heartbreaking.  

[00:25:39] So just I'm open to talk about every factor that might make a difference here. I would just like to hear what can be done instead of what can't be done. And that is that desperation I feel. Just to show me some ethic of I care enough to try something. I care enough to try something new. And and I'm sorry. I understand that there are people who believe the Second Amendment has already been compromised away. I just don't see it. I don't see it in the numbers. I don't see it in the data. I don't see it in their results. We have an increase in gun violence against children happening in this country. That is what the statistics say right now. And that is unacceptable to me. And I believe it's unacceptable to everyone. But I want that to translate into what we do next.  

Sarah [00:26:33] I believe it is unacceptable. I don't think anybody wants kids to die. I just think some people think it's a reality we cannot 100 percent prevent. I think that there are people who believe we should harden the schools. No more gun free zones. More people with guns, despite the fact that this school had someone with a gun. We need more guns. There are Americans who believe the answer to gun violence is more guns. Under any circumstances. And I don't know what to do about that. I don't know how big that group is. I know that they're powerful and they're vocal. I don't know how big they are. But I think that there is a devotion to guns in this country that to some people, any level of sacrifice is worth. And that's just hard. It's hard to sit with that and not become angry and not become depressed. Because I don't know what to do with that. I don't know how to stay present in a democratic society with people whose extreme position is dictating the legislative reality of everybody else. And I think all this talk about lockdowns and it just takes one classroom. It just takes one. You can lock down the rest of the school. They just have to get in one.  

[00:28:16] We cannot build impenetrable fortresses in which to educate our children. It is not realistic. It's just not realistic. And why would that be what we want? Why would that be what we want? I don't I don't know. But it is what some people want. Some people believe the only answer is more guns. And that is just so hard to accept. That the answer is always more guns, that you should own as many guns of any type as you could possibly want. That is so unlike any other industrialized nations in the world. Everywhere else in the world they keep guns away from people. You know why? Because guns are dangerous. That's why. Guns are dangerous. And it's like I feel like I have to start from there. Like, can we agree that guns are really dangerous even in the best possible circumstances? They're meant to do harm. It's like even that most basic reality feels like it's up for debate.  

Beth [00:29:35] And that we are not safer with more of them. I don't understand how we're debating that. I have interrogated this question. It is clear to me we are not safer with more guns. I really thought David Frum like summed it up. He wrote this piece for The Atlantic about how America has blood on its hands. He said every other democracy makes some considerable effort to keep guns away from dangerous people and dangerous people away from guns. And he talks about how many guns we bought during the pandemic and says, "No surprise, those two years also witnessed a surge in gun violence, the spectacular human butchery of our recurring mass slaughters, the surge of one on one lethal criminality, the unceasing, tragic toll of carelessness as American gun owners hurt and kill their loved ones and themselves. We will learn more about the 18 year old killer of elementary schoolchildren, his personality, his ideology, whatever confection of hate and cruelty drove him to his horrible crime. But we already know the answer to one question. Who put the weapon of mass murder into his hand? The answer to that question is, the public policy of this country armed him."   

Sarah [00:30:45] Yeah. It is crazy making. It is crazy making. It feels like debating the color of the sky. More guns equals more gun violence. The reality, even for my friend I try to give such grace to, is that they are okay with that. They are okay with that. That is a sacrifice they're willing to make. And maybe if I'm giving wheelbarrows full of grace, they believe in their head that they are preventing some sort of worse violence from the government against its citizens by stockpiling weapons at every corner. The sacrifice of liberty would lead to even more bloodshed than these mass murder events. I guess. Maybe. But, again, until something happens, I don't know what it would be. If it's not the slaughter of elementary school children, then I truly don't know what it will be. I feel like the Second Amendment, that's what has blood on its hands. It's like we can't get over it. Repeal the Second Amendment. That's what I'm ready to do. Just repeal it. It's broken. It's messed up. The Supreme Court's going to add even more weight to it. Probably with a decision this summer. It is so, so, hard not to feel hopeless.  

Beth [00:32:23] So I'm happy to talk about anything. I'm happy to talk about repealing the Second Amendment. I don't believe that we need this right to keep and bear arms without any meaningful limitation around it. But I'm also happy to just talk about the fact that an 18 year old shouldn't be able to purchase a gun. If you can't rent a car until you're 24, I think that we ought to talk about not being able to purchase a gun until you're 24. I am happy to talk about and I am a person who believes in forgiveness and redemption and a criminal justice system focused on rehabilitation, not punitive measures. But I think that if you are under a protection order related to stalking or violence, you should not be able to purchase a gun. If you are on a no fly list, you shouldn't be able to purchase a gun. These things seem really easy to me. I would like to see us use the kinds of technology that people want to talk about to create those fortresses around schools, to create fortresses around guns as they are in our homes. You know, the type of storage requirements that people have, I think are really important. I would like to do voluntary buybacks. I would like to get some of these guns just away. I think there are people right now who are ready to say, you know what, enough is enough. And so let's seize the moment and get rid of those guns. I would like to see warning labels on guns. I would like to have a conversation about whether you should be able to be a for profit gun manufacturer.  

Sarah [00:33:55] Yes.  

Beth [00:33:56] I just think that the incentives here are so perverse, and I don't think that violates the Second Amendment in any reasonable way. Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce corporations, and the ability to buy shares in corporations exist because of laws that we've passed. And I would just like to talk about if guns are a social good, the way many people try to tell me that they are, if they are a social good, then let's have them delivered the way many social goods are delivered without a profit motive attached to it. Let us not ever again be in a situation where stocks jump 8% because a bunch of people died. And maybe that will scare some people into buying more guns, either because they think they can protect themselves or because they think that there might be some action taken to restrict their ability to buy those guns. I just I want to talk about it from every single angle and get anything done that helps at all. If there is one area where it is worth it to me to know that we left it all on the field trying to do good, this is it.  

Sarah [00:35:05] I told Nicholas that it just feels hard to be an American. It doesn't feel like there's lots to be proud of right now. And so when you hear one of these incidents where you feel like there's so much to be done and we're doing so little, it just compounds that feeling. And while I might not feel proud of my country right now, I do want to say that I feel proud to share it with so many of you that there are so many people for the first time saying enough is enough. And it might not be enough this time. But it adds to the group every time. The group gets bigger every time. And I feel that. And, like I said, it is the small source of light and encouragement to see people engaging, to see people showing up with their voices and their words and their faces and their bodies saying, this matters and we're a democracy and you represent us and we want this change. And it's still hard. But it does matter. And so for all of you doing that, thank you.  

Beth [00:36:41] I appreciate everyone's efforts very much as well. And I will tell you, I am proud of this country. We have everything in the world going for us, which is how I know that we don't have to live this way. This is not a natural law. It is not inevitable that we continue to see this kind of violence. It is not inevitable that you must grab some guns and protect yourself and your family because it's every person for themselves out here. It does not have to be this way. It does not have to be that these ghost boys go unidentified and end up doing something that ruins or ends their lives, as well as tearing apart a whole community. We don't have to do this. We have absolutely everything we need to solve this problem. We just have to want to.  

[00:37:36] We're going to switch gears somewhat dramatically because we always try to end with what's on our minds outside of politics. Although I will say that what we chose to talk about today was school ending, and it is hard for me to express the deep relief I feel that we are here with our kids for the summer as we're processing all of this, even as it is a struggle to get anything done around here. I am so glad that my children are safe at home with me while I and and they and all of us taking this news and take a  breath from it and try to figure out what's next.  

Sarah [00:38:12] Yeah. My kids were not out of school yet, so we had to send them to school the last few days, which has been really hard. It's been really hard. But today is our last day of school. We're having our traditional last day of school party. It was supposed to rain, but it cleared up. So we're going to have a water gun fight and ice cream. And we're going to gather and celebrate with the people in our community that we love who've gotten us through this school year. My kids look forward to it every year. I look forward to it every year. We thought about canceling it for rain, and one of my friends was like, "No, I need this." It does feel just like[Inaudible] fifth grade promotion and Griffin's 13th birthday. And, you know, all the last day of school stuff feels particularly heavy. Everything feels heavy and hard. My husband was like, everything's hard. But we saw a lot of happiness. And that's true. It's so true. This year, this time of year, that's so intense. The graduations and promotions and awards ceremonies and concerts. On top of recovering from COVID, it feels heavy. The happiness feels heavy. Which is weird. It's a weird feeling. But I guess it's just a human feeling. It's a human feeling.  

Beth [00:40:01] I am grateful for all of those rituals as much as it's a difficult time of year. We were watching Shang Chi with the girls the other night. They hadn't seen it yet. And it struck me for the first time that I really love that after the big fight scene, there were no guns in Shang Chi. A bunch of people were killed by like evil spirit, lizard, bird-type things. But after that big fight scene, there was a funeral that they they lit lamps and sent them out on a lake and took time to acknowledge those who had been lost. And it just really jumped out at me that in a Marvel movie -- and there was some of that in previous Marvel movies, but this just felt very ceremonial and like it really contended with the fact that even fictional characters had passed on. And I don't know, I think I'm just in a space where I'm considering how important ritual is. Jane had her fifth grade promotion, but she's been extremely melancholy about leaving her elementary school, going to middle school. The way we all talk about middle school does not help that. And I have wondered, what else could there have been wrapped around this experience to acknowledge that that's hard, but this is the most time you'll spend in one school building and you're leaving it now and that's really hard? I don't know. But with all this heaviness, I think that anything that feels like it connects us to each other and to time and tradition and people all over the world, going through some of these same things helps.  

Sarah [00:41:45] I loved what you said in the Instagram post that together is all we have. I think that is true all the time, but particularly right now. Together is all we have.  

Beth [00:41:59] And I hope that all of you feel that sense. I wish that we could physically all be together in this community sometimes because I think there is no substitute for physical presence. But I do hope you you feel cared for, especially all of the teachers who've reached out to talk about how this shooting has affected them, all the school administrators, people with responsibility for keeping children safe every day and contending with their own safety. I will be honest, when I have gone in the building to substitute, I have thought every time something could happen here and I might not leave and my kids might not leave. But I'm never going to refuse to go myself into a place that I send my kids every day. So it's hard. And we're here with you in the hardness, and sometimes we have a more optimistic outlook about it, and sometimes we are feeling pretty despondent alongside you. And we just try to be honest about that because together is what we have. We'll be back here with you next week. Until then, please take care of yourselves and have the best weekend available to you.  

[00:43:08] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:43:14] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:43:20] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Sarah [00:43:24] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs.  

[00:43:42] The Kriebs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:44:00] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  



Maggie Penton2 Comments