The Albatross of Student Loan Debt

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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Uvlade

Amber Heard and Johnny Depp

Student Loan Forgiveness

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:00] So you would vote for this. You just wouldn't vote for...  

Beth [00:00:01] I would not vote for this, but I'm not mad about it. I would not. I would not vote for this.  

Sarah [00:00:04]  You wouldn't even vote for the $10,000?  

Beth [00:00:06] If I were in Congress and this were in front of me. No, I could not in good conscience say this is the best place to put this money.  

Sarah [00:00:21] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:22] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:24] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:39] Thank you so much for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. Whenever we talk to people about making this podcast, we tell them that our conversations are just the beginning of the work. The most important rewarding part happens after the podcast is released, is listeners start to tell us about the thoughts and conversations they're having after listening. So we wanted to start today's episode by celebrating some of that. We're going to talk about some of your feedback and share updates on topics we've discussed recently. And then in our main segment, we're going to discuss a topic that many, many of you have asked about, and that is really in the news this week, student loan debt. We're going to share some information about the current status of student loan debt and what the federal government is doing and considering, and our thoughts about the best paths forward. And because we all live very full lives, we always end by talking about what's on our minds outside of politics. Today, that will take the delightful form of Sarah chatting with her son Amos about his birthday.  

Sarah [00:01:33] If you were listening regularly, we would so appreciate you taking a moment to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. That is such a big help to us. As we talked about with the launch of our book, Now What?,  algorithms dictate so much of what bubbles up and has the opportunity to get people's attention, and rating the podcast helps new listeners find our show so that we can continue to have rich, thoughtful conversations with people all over the world.  

Beth [00:01:56] Next up, we'll discuss some updates and some of the comments and questions that we're hearing from this fantastic community of listeners. Sarah, it is becoming the case that every time we sit down to record, there is a new mass shooting to discuss. And that's hard. That is hard on all of us. It's wearing on us psychologically. Since you've Uvalde, 20 incidents meet the definition of mass shooting, four or more people shot or killed, not including the shooter. That makes 233 for the year. It is June 2nd as we're recording. On Wednesday night, a gunman killed four people and wounded others in a medical office building in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We're recording Thursday morning. We don't know much more than that as we're sitting down to record, but we wanted to acknowledge that it has happened. And we've heard a lot from this community as we've been discussing what happened in Uvalde. We should start that conversation by saying we recorded Tuesday's episode before the information broke that actually the teacher did not leave the door open. And we updated on social media but wanted to update here as well that in fact the teacher saw the gunman crash his vehicle and start shooting, closed the door as she was calling 911 to report that. And so what a tragedy that in a press conference intended to provide transparency and accountability for previous misstatements, the police again got a crucial detail very, very, wrong.  

Sarah [00:03:40] And good for her. Good for her for getting a lawyer and getting out there and saying that is not what happened. Because let me tell you something, in a town that small, with authorities speaking a particular narrative in the midst of incredible trauma, that's not an easy thing to do. You know, the the momentum of the story after a school shooting is really powerful. I saw it in my own community and it wasn't until 20 years later that I realized through talking to friends and survivors, how powerful that is and how there's a sense of people in charge just start making decisions for other people. So good for her for saying that's not what happened. And I'll tell you what, the fact that the police chief of the school security system is now not participating with the investigation. Like was sworn in to the city commission. It's getting -- I have questions. I have questions and concerns  now beyond just, oh, man, there were terrible decisions made. Because it feels like to me like terrible decisions are still being made. Why was she the one that had to come out and correct that narrative? Y'all were already out there correcting the narrative.  The red flag for me is the fact that he has stopped participating in the investigation. What's going on? I mean, I don't know if he's gotten a lawyer and he's worried about legal liability, but he probably should be. But it's concerning.  

Beth [00:05:13] What a garbage situation in that a teacher who has just lived through this horror and is grieving colleagues and children has to get a lawyer to correct this. And has to fight against the people who are supposed to be stewards of the situation.  It's infuriating. The levels of infuriating around this situation for a person who lives in Kentucky --  This wasn't even my community and I am so upset about this. I cannot imagine what it feels like to live there and how confusing it must be. It's awful. And I think that the awfulness of what's happened in Uvalde and the awfulness of more and more and more of this in the news and in communities across the United States leads to this overwhelming sense of hopelessness. And we've heard a lot of that from listeners. I'm calling, I'm doing all the things, and I still feel that it won't matter.  

[00:06:05] And I just want to, one, acknowledge that I understand why people feel that way. And I have moments like that too. The other thing to know is that like there is a momentum around this issue that has been building over years, not fast enough for anyone. But everything big that's ever happened to correct a horrific problem in America has taken years and years -- if not decades -- of sustained work. And that is happening around gun violence. And you see glimmers of hope in Congress. Everyone is cautiously optimistic, but there is no reason that Congress can't act around this. Like, there's just no reason. They have the power and they can do things. And the House Judiciary Committee did come back early to consider some proposals. And the Senate is working on this. And so I think being accepting of some of the despair that accompanies this and willing to to just keep going is important.  

Sarah [00:07:08] We have these moments in American history that we point to. I even did it on our episode about Uvalde. I talked about Emmett Till, but it's not like Emmett Till was the only thing that changed everybody's mind. It was a catalyst that came after dedicated work over decades. And I think even the Stonewall riot, that was a catalyst. But even that history is way more complicated than we talked about it for years and years and years. And we just do this, like, we glom onto things. We decide, like, oh, well, it was the women burning the bras outside of the Miss America -- Fun fact, they didn't actually burn the bras. They just threw them away, but outside of the Miss America Pageant. But I just think that's just the way we remember things. And it's important as you're living through history to remember, like, the way we remember history as these flash points. That's why I get so upset when people say, well, nothing changed after Sandy Hook. That's not true. That's not true. And it's not fair to the families and the victims who have dedicated themselves. You know, it's not fair to organizations like Moms Demand Action who have built incredible grassroots campaigns and power. And so I just think we have to remember that. That this is a timeline. It's not these flashpoint moments where everything changes. That's just not how human society works, and it's certainly not how change takes place.  

Beth [00:08:44] And I think that helps remember that this is a collective effort that you are not individually responsible for getting gun violence legislation passed through Congress. That you have a part to play, but also that it is not solely your part. And we are all responsible. And those members are responsible. I just see people in what feels like an unsustainable place in terms of their individual responsibility and action around this. And that is not to discourage anyone from acting -- take action. Call your local officials, call your elected officials of the state in the federal level. Do what is in you to do. Get involved with Moms Demand or organizations that are working toward this goal. But it's not yours to do alone. And if it doesn't happen right now, it doesn't mean that you've failed in some way. Chris pointed out to us that we continue to just need more information about gun violence because we have to do research.  

Sarah [00:09:37] I hope that's in the bipartisan panel's discussion list agenda, is opening this up to research again.  

Beth [00:09:45] So that is another piece that we hope happens, just an ability to study this problem at the federal level and figure out what we do about it and treat it like the public health crisis that it is. So lots going on there. Thank you for reaching out to us and sharing your stories. Thank you to the teachers who have reached out to us with lots of observations about this. Thank you to the gun owners who've reached out to us with observations about this. It is a community conversation that everyone has a part to play in and we are enriched by your thinking. We also heard from many of you about our conversation on the podcast several episodes ago about sex, and particularly about the Amber Heard, Johnny Depp public spectacle of a trial. We have a verdict in that matter now. One of the big things I wanted to highlight as we talk about your feedback is that a number of people said, you know, whatever else is going on here, this trial has captivated my attention because I know a man who has been in an abusive relationship with a woman, and I feel like that doesn't get talked about enough. And I think that whatever the facts are between these two complex celebrity human beings, in what seems like a relationship that was dysfunctional in about every way, I think knowing that domestic violence is more complicated than some of the narratives that we tend to think of instantly, I think that's good and important.  

Sarah [00:11:12] I think that would be good and important if I felt like that's what was happening here. I don't feel like this is like a thoughtful advocacy and conversation around more complex domestic abuse situations. I feel like this has been a black hole for complexity and empathy and nuance. I was reading a really good Twitter thread yesterday from a media expert. And she was just talking about, particularly on Tik Tok, there were influencers who were openly saying, "I am covering this because I make more money and I'm covering it from his perspective because I get more interactions and I make more money." If you were team Amber, you lost followers and you got harassed pretty openly. And so this idea, I think, that this was any sort of thoughtful, empathetic exploration of some issues in society, I did not see or feel or experience that anywhere I saw coverage of this trial. I think the fact that the jury was not sequestered is bananas. I think it's reflected in a pretty confusing verdict where they both received compensatory damages. I think that this was harmful. Just harmful to everyone, to the people who participated, to the people who watched and followed along. I just felt like the exorcizing of so many demons and not in a positive, productive way.  

Beth [00:12:59] The only place I disagree with you is that I don't think this was one thing. I think this was a lot of things. I think it was harmful in many, many, ways. I also take the people who have said there is something here that helped me process something in my life at their words. That's different than the coverage of it. That's different than somebody making a lot of money off pro Johnny Depp podcasting, which certainly happened and I think is very damaging and harmful. But I think there are people who saw a lot in this that connected with them. That's why everybody was fixated on it. That's why there was money to be made and exploitation to be had. So I don't think it was one thing. And I really despise the does this setback the MeToo movement kind of coverage from really legitimate news outlets. Because MeToo isn't one thing and it is not like a ledger that goes forward and backwards only. There are always layers to those conversations. And in some ways, yes, very harmful to victims of abuse to think if I come forward now, will I not only be disbelieved, I'll also be sued. That's terrible. And for that to have happened mostly because of Johnny Depp's money and ego, I think that's really bad. And I hope that Johnny Depp will consider spending some of his enormous wealth with organizations that help victims of domestic violence.  

[00:14:28] Even if that is a pure PR stunt, you can still cash checks written in bad faith and help a lot of people. And I hope that that happens. At the same time, though, I just don't think this was one thing. And I think it's important to reflect on how we cover these matters. And I do agree with you that a lot of demons were exorcized. But I don't want to be dismissive of the many, many, people who saw something here that helped them process something that they lived with. Because the thing I learned more than anything else practicing domestic relations law, for a very brief period of time because it was not good for my soul, is that there is so much that goes on in people's homes, some of it that is violent but not abusive. And maybe that's what sort of the split decision by the jury here represented. There was violence here, but perhaps not properly characterized as abuse. I don't know. I don't know if that's correct, but that's all I can make sense of from it. I just worry about how personally people have attached to this situation and how much that shows us that we have work to do around domestic violence.  

Sarah [00:15:36] I just think that a certain point, a viral moment becomes its own thing. I think that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's one thing to everyone. Anything viral is going to contain a universe of reactions based on everybody's individual life experiences. But at a certain point, and I think it was pretty early, this stopped being about Amber Heard and Johnny Depp and started being about something more.  Like I said when we talked about the first time, it felt like it was about this angry reclaiming of something. And I think I have to disagree with you. I do think this hurts the MeToo movement. I think you're right. I don't think it's this math problem where we add and subtract. But if you are a woman who wants to say something, you are a victim who is being encouraged to publicly say something as simple as I become the face of domestic abuse, because this is so viral, everybody's going to have a surface understanding of it. And to me, the surface understanding is you can speak out and then get sued and have millions of dollars in compensatory damages against you. So you better shut up.  

Beth [00:17:06] Well, and I think it is important to combat that message by saying this was a really unique circumstance. It is expensive to bring a libel suit and prosecute it. And very few people are going to be able to demonstrate compensatory damages in the millions of dollars. And on the whole, what I hope we can take from this is whatever your situation. Reach out and have someone help you with it and reach out to your full support network and recognize that a court system does not have the answer to the entirety of your situation. I hate that that is going to be the message. I guess part of what I'm trying to say here is I don't want to amplify that message because there are things about this that connect to people's everyday experiences. And there are more things about this trial in particular that exist in an alternate universe. And part of what I think Johnny Depp needs to really reflect on for the rest of his life is what it cost everyone for him to experience what he thinks of as a form of redemption here. I hate that he brought this lawsuit. Whatever the facts are, I hate that he brought this lawsuit. And I hate what's happened through it. And if he has really funded all these PR efforts around himself, I hate that. And I do think all that's enormously damaging. And at the same time, I just want to make space for what people are feeling around this that was actually encouraging and helpful to them too. Because I do think there are a lot of men out there who have been abused by women and haven't reported it or been able to discuss it without facing a lot of disbelief.  

Sarah [00:18:49] I don't have a lot of faith that that's what he's going to do. I think he's going to take a victory lap and then let us not forget that we have another one of these because she is suing him. God save us if the judge opens it up to public viewing, I certainly hope that he doesn't. Although maybe she would want that. Maybe she wants her chance. But that to me is the most brutal part, is like it's not even done. I do think that if Johnny Depp thinks that he's just going to pick his career back up that that is... Now, just because people are team Johnny Depp on Tik Tok, does not mean that they're ready to see you in a Pirates of the Caribbean movie again because you've lost all suspension. Like, we all now know the very intimate details of your life. Which means it's going to be very difficult to see you in a role and not see Johnny Depp, who accused his wife of defecating on his bed. So I just I think it was so brutal. I think it cost a lot to everyone involved and to the people who engaged. And I just think about Tick Tock and I think about the age of their audience and I think that's what makes me so sad.  

[00:19:58] People who've lived a lot of life and are seeing some of their experiences in that, have a lot more tools to process the complexity of the situation and the harshness of this and the cruelty of this situation, particularly the coverage, than the 18 to 25-year-olds who are consuming the Tick Tocks about this like it's a soap opera. And I say this not because I have judgment about young people. I say this as a person who lived through a trial like this at around the same age absence of social media, and it was still pretty harmful. So and it's a hall of mirrors. You think because it's a legal trial that you're getting the story and it's a hall of mirrors. That's what the O.J. Simpson trial was, a hall of mirrors. And I think we're still working some of that out. And so just to see this, I think you'd want to tell yourself we've evolved as a society, we're not going to do it again. That's probably overly optimistic.  

Beth [00:21:02] You've said for a while that you wanted to get in on Tick Tock while it was still fun because there was a point when it would make the turn that the rest of social media makes. Is this the turn?  

Sarah [00:21:12] I have not put Tick Tock back on my phone since the beginning of Lent.  

Beth [00:21:14] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:21:15] So I'm out. I'm out. And this just confirms that decision for me, honestly.  

Beth [00:21:21] There's so much more to say about all of this, but we are going to leave it there for now. And next up, we will talk about another very personal issue that also affects everyone collectively, and that is student debt. Sarah, we hear from our audience pretty frequently asking us to talk about student loans. And so I think some level setting is probably in order because student loans constitute a huge form of household debt, the second biggest form of household debt in the United States. And also, student loans is not like one bucket of debt because there are federal loans, there are private loans. And it's really important to make that distinction, especially when we're talking about student loan forgiveness, because the federal government only has the power to forgive federal student loans. And federal student loans really operate as a way to subsidize education in the United States. So we put some money directly into higher education, but we have a lot more people going to college here than in many parts of the world because federal student loans, which for the most part have lower interest rates and more favorable terms, both in order to just get the money and in order to repay it than private loans. That lets a lot more people go to college and gives a lot more people access to credit than would otherwise have it.  

Sarah [00:22:54] I also think of a couple other buckets. I think of people who went to nonprofit and people who went to for profit universities. I also think of the buckets of people who graduated and people who did not. I just think there's all these different distinctions that make up this massive amount of debt. I mean, what Americans owing student debt exceeds what they owe on credit cards, car loans and owning trails mortgages? It's a massive amount of money. Now, in the spirit of level setting, did you take out loans for college or law school?  

Beth [00:23:30] I did. I took out loans for both. So I had federal aid for my undergraduate work, both in the form of those unsubsidized federal loans. So the ones where interest is accruing while you're in school and you do have to start paying once you graduate. I also did the Federal Work Study Program. So that's an award. It's a set amount of money, but you have to earn it through hourly work on campus. I worked in the Career Services Office for my Federal Work Study Program. And then for law school, I took out a federal loan as well as a private loan. The private loan was to help me with my living expenses, and I cannot, in strong enough terms, tell you how much I regret that private loan because that interest rate was terrible and took me longer to pay off than my federal loans for sure. What about you?  

Sarah [00:24:22] I was very, very, privileged in that I did not accrue any debt for undergraduate. I got some scholarships, my parents paid my tuition, and then I got a full ride in my senior year through a scholarship, which I think basically paid for my wedding for what it's worth. For anyone who doesn't know, I was a child bride. I got married right out of college. And then for law school, we sort of got two for the price of one. So my husband was very fancy and very smart and he went to Duke Law on a full ride, but he took out loans for cost of living. By the time I went to law school, he had a fancy law job and so I just took out loans for tuition. So between us, it was basically loans for like one law school degree. We have just completed paying my law school loans off like, I don't know, a couple months ago, 20 years after I graduated from law school. But again, I was very lucky. I worked at capital hill, that was not high paying. I mean, basically, Nicholas was paying my law school loans for the majority of the time. He still has a small amount of loans left. But we are also very lucky in when we took our loans out and when we consolidated and all that worked out.  I mean, the rate is like 2 percent. The interest rate is very, very, low.   

[00:25:39] But still even with all the best case scenario for both of us, he didn't have any college loans as he went to college on a full ride, again, very smart, very fancy. And still especially when we moved back to Paducah and we started having kids, it just was there all the time. It was a constant conversation. Well, we have these loans. Well, we have our loans. And it felt  insurmountable and so much it became so much a part of like how I thought about our lives that sometimes I forget. It feels surreal that they're paid off because them being in existence and this sort of constant calculus. I remember one time we did the math and I think if we still stay on that path, we would pay them off right when Griffin goes to college and we'd start having to pay for his college. And I thought, I do not want that. I do not want that. That sounds terrible. But it was just this constant -- I don't know.  It's like the water, right?  You're just in the water. The student loans are the water.  

Beth [00:26:45] As you look at the spread of student loans across the United States, it is a lot of money and it affects a lot of people. And the vast majority of the people owe the smallest amount of money. So most people who have student loan debt owe actually less than $10,000. A very troubling part of that statistic is that they owe less than $10,000 because many of them did not finish their programs. And so that means they are not reaping the benefits, only the burdens of having taken this debt out. And then the smallest number of people owe the most money. That's where you get into professional schools, medical school, graduate work. And so when you talk about the scope of this problem, like Sarah said, you have people who went to these for profit schools where the return on that investment has become very, very, low to the point of it looking like a sham in many instances. You've got a huge number of people who didn't finish their work for a huge variety of reasons. And then you have people who are in very high paying jobs, who are current on their payments but are staring down decades of repayment because they borrowed so much to do those programs. So it is not a simple problem that affects everyone in one way. I think a lot of people would tell your story, Sarah, that you were able to pay it, but it was a constant weight on your shoulders.  

Sarah [00:28:08] Albatross.  

Beth [00:28:09] That's the word I was looking for. Thank you.  

Sarah [00:28:12] Yeah. And then you hear these stories where people just have massive amounts. And I think what really bothers me is in the sort of the -- I don't know if extreme is truly the right word. But in the more intense examples where people owe a massive amount of student debt that they just can't pay off. And then you have this whole situation with bankruptcy where a student loan is the debt you cannot have forgiven in bankruptcy without an enormous amount of effort. And this part I didn't really know this until we started doing this research for the show, that it was just basically based on rumors that there were doctors and lawyers who were exploiting the system to not pay off their student loans. And that's why Congress did that because there's some rumors, what? It's so gross. I heard this story about these people who went out of their way, did all the dance in bankruptcy court, got their student loans forgiveness, and then they came back to years where, like, you still have to pay them off. What?  These amounts and the way that the interest builds and the monthly payments are just so unaffordable and are truly miserly, arguably cruel approach to bankruptcy in this country, especially post some of the big changes with that law in 2005. I just kind of want to be like, what are we doing? What are we doing when we have this this narrative about education is how you better yourself and then we just burden people? We don't want to pay for it as taxpayers, not in the way that our grandparents and our parents had their educations funded, especially state schools. And then we just burden people. We make it almost impossible to get out of. And so, I'm glad the clamor about forgiveness has been building and building.  

Beth [00:30:09] I think there are multiple layers of what are we doing here? Starting with that rumor, I sort of hate the way we talk about doctors and lawyers. It is a social good to have people go to law school and medical school. I understand that there are folks who make amounts of money that people find unconscionable and we can talk about that. But going to law school is definitely no assurance that you're going to make gobs and gobs of money on the other side. And it is a social good to have people who incur this huge debt to then be public defenders. We desperately need those people. We desperately need physicians. And we ask an awful lot of them, as we have just seen over the past few years.  

Sarah [00:30:49] And they're not all lucrative either.  

Beth [00:30:51] And that's not all lucrative either. So I wish that we could find a little space in that conversation. It's also true that student loans are high because college is expensive. Even talking about college being expensive is complicated because these discussions about how unaffordable college is tend to have a chilling effect on people who are economically disadvantaged even thinking about going to college when there are lots of ways to go to college. There are lots of programs. There are paths in addition to federal student loan debt to get people to college. There are grant programs, there are foundations, there are scholarships. There's so many ways to go to college. And I never want to say to someone, well, college is expensive and then I'm here, so I shouldn't even try to go. So it's a hard conversation to have all the way around. And when you talk about why college is expensive, that has multiple layers. And when you compare our higher education in America to other countries around the world, I mean, there are so many directions this conversation could go.  

[00:31:55] I think where we need to go this week is to just think about the current debt that exists, because that is what the administration is talking about. So we have a huge action by the Department of Education this week to cancel $5.8 billion for 560,000 borrowers who attended the network of for profit schools known as Corinthian Colleges. That is the largest one time discharge that the Department of Education has ever made. And then we have reports that the White House is about to cancel $10,000 per student debt borrower for people who earned less than $150,000 in the previous year, or less than $300,000 for married couples filing jointly. And that would be a huge step, because, again, the vast majority of borrowers have less than $10,000 in debt. So it doesn't help the people who are saddled with huge amounts of debt for the long term, but it does help the most people who have student loans at the federal level.  

Sarah [00:32:56] Well, $10,000 forgiven is going to help no matter how big your debt. It's still $10,000. It's like if you have 150, yeah, you still are saddled with an enormous amount of debt. But $10,000 is a lot of money. Your debts or your student loans are paid off?  

Beth [00:33:14] Yes.  

Sarah [00:33:15] Does it bother you at all to hear that other people's debts would be forgiven when you paid years off?  

Beth [00:33:21] No.  

Sarah [00:33:22] As it certainly bothers lots of people. I have friends that I've seen and have posted on Facebook that it upsets them. The narrative I hear is I made sacrifices to pay mine off and now it feels like that was for nothing. If I had waited, I could have had my debts forgiven. There's a real resentment underlying the idea of having some people student debt forgiven.  

Beth [00:33:49] I don't feel that at all. My whole story of getting to go to a private college and getting to go to law school is, I think, a lot of what we mean when we talk about the American dream. Like, I have a standard of living that is higher than the standard of living I grew up in. I was incredibly lucky and privileged to get to do everything that I've done in my life. And so when you talk about fairness, it's not fair that I was able to get a ridiculous loan to build a house right out of law school with no real credit history, with only the promise of making money, not actual money. You know, I didn't make a down payment to buy my house. That's not fair. And probably had a lot to do with my skin color and the prestige that my degree and the law firm I was going to work for carried in this community. And so if I'm going to say, well, it's not fair that I payed this off and someone else won't have to, then I got to look at all the places where I've had a leg up and just trust that things are as they are and that life isn't promised to be fair. So I don't feel any resentment about the fact that I paid these loans off and other people won't have to at all.  

Sarah [00:35:01] It just bothers me because it feels like it's that individual lens through which we revert to in these conversations about a lot of things, not just to loans. And so it's like we pick the worst story. We pick the doctor who owns millions who filed for bankruptcy to get his loans forgiven or whatever the case may be and we decide, like, that's the ones I'm going to compare the worst abuser to my pure hearted motives and think about it through only the lens of those individual interactions, as opposed to looking at the societal issues here. I thought Tressie McMillan Cottom did a really great job talking about this in one of her recent columns, is the student loan forgiveness is just an acknowledgment that we messed this up. We got it wrong. We did bad. Instead of funding college publicly, we told people that was the path. We made it more expensive. We made the debt burdensome and then we acted like people did it to themselves. It's an acknowledgment that this isn't working and it's not because people are making individually bad decisions.  

[00:36:13] Even if some individuals are making bad decisions, in the macro, this is a problem. I can't stop thinking about a friend of mine who was talking to an admissions officer about at a pretty elite school about how the parents of applicants who have these big old college savings plans, they don't want to touch them. They want the government to either pay for college. They want more scholarships. Like, even in a in a place of enormous privilege where they have the money to pay for college, there's this sense of  but I shouldn't have to. And I'm like, what happening there? What's happening with the people who save for college under the understanding that college is expensive, still get there and think this is too expensive I shouldn't have to spend my money on it. I don't even care where we've gone astray. That to me is just one more indicator we have and things need to change.  

Beth [00:37:11] I think things have gone astray in a number of ways too. So when you talk about the Federal Student Loan program, I think that's a really good program. I am grateful that that program exists. And there are lots of ways already to have your student loans forgiven that borrowers don't know about because it's poorly communicated, because it's a maze of servicers that are hired to actually manage repayment of these loans. There are just lots of ways in which things have gone wrong. And I think what the administration has been smart about is trying to address some of those issues. So they are undergoing a contract negotiation right now to limit the number of servicers the government partners with and increase transparency around how those loans are getting serviced and make sure that people are connected with those debt forgiveness programs more effectively. I think working on this long term is really important. So I have said before, if I were a member of Congress and a sweeping proposal for student loan forgiveness was on the table, I would probably vote against it. And that's not because I don't think there's a problem here. And it's not because I'm mad that I paid my lones off and somebody else might get theirs forgiven.  

[00:38:22] Looking at all of the problems in the United States right now, I don't think that I could, in good faith, say to my constituents, this is the best place for a giant federal investment. This is where we can do the most good because this doesn't affect everybody. There are lots of people with much higher needs that I think this money could be directed to to help. But I'm not mad that it's happening. I just disagree. Like I disagree with the prioritization of this issue. And I do think that there is something deeply wrong. I think it's hard to imagine that any 18-year-old gets a full picture of what this means. Like, this is a giant commitment for someone at that age. I think it's hard to see the price of college ever coming down if we just do like one time forgiveness, even if we did forgiveness every ten years or so. I think the price of college is just going to keep rising unless we look at other factors. So this feels like a Band-Aid to me on a wound that needs like pretty complex surgery. But I appreciate that the administration is trying to do some of that surgery as they are talking about the Band-Aid.  

Sarah [00:39:31] Yeah, I disagree. I think I would definitely vote for it. My disagreement is not that they're trying to do surgery, it's that they're not going big enough. And I think that this would touch so many other complex problems up the prioritization list in a real way. Because my husband was like, well, I'm not mad at the means testing. But I think I might be because, to me, that continues to play into that sort of what we're dealing with individual choices here, and we're just trying to help people whose individual choices are really saddling them with that. When what I want is an acknowledgment that we messed it up and things are bad and college is too expensive. And to a certain extent, I mean, it's a little bit of semantics, but when you're talking about federal student loan debt, we're not investing. We're not taking money and spending it. We're forgiving debt we own.So it's putting money back into the economy in a way that I guess printing money does sort of. But it's a little bit more complex economic maneuver. And so, to me, it's like we own the debt, we can certainly forgive it and we can certainly make a big grand gesture to that. To say this is indicative of a lot of issues in the United States.  

[00:40:57] To me, I think that's what it is. I feel like it gets to the sense of like the system is rigged against people because college is so expensive and the only way to do it is to saddle yourself with all this debt, especially if you are on the lower rungs of the economic ladder. And so a grand gesture that gets it like we've mess this up, everybody. We're going to get back to where college was affordable because we do believe that education is a fundamental piece of the American dream and that journey up into the higher echelons. And we don't want you to feel like it's right and right now it kind of is. You can look at the admissions of the elite colleges and the way that debt is sort of delineated and all those things. And it's not hard to walk away and think that's kind of rigged. And so I feel like a grand gesture to something, to a system that's been so broken for so long, especially when it's not, again, like that sort of infrastructure spending, but more forgiving debt we already own. I don't know. I'm not only not mad at this, I'd rather have something bigger.  

Beth [00:42:00] I have questions about this. So a grand gesture by the government which did pay out this money to the colleges, it's debt that we own as to these borrowers. But it is money that the government spent as to the federal budget. So I'd feel differently about a grand gesture where the government got together with a lot of universities and they put some money from their endowments that they're sitting on into this.  

Sarah [00:42:26] A  billion dollars. 

Beth [00:42:27] Where the industry said we messed up because the government has messed up, but the industry has messed up. Put that in the bill.  

Sarah [00:42:35] Put that in the bill. I like it. Add that to the list.  

Beth [00:42:37] That to me feels very different than just the government forgiving me that because I don't know what incentive you have if you're a university to change anything. And I don't think any university in isolation can change this. This is a system problem, right? So I don't know what incentive is created to change the game through the grand gesture. You see what I'm saying?  

Sarah [00:42:58] Yeah. Well, first of all, I think there's incentive in lots of areas of college admissions in that it's  either, depending on who you ask and what you're talking about, down or through the roof in ways that they can't manage. I don't have a kid in college admissions, but I'm adjacent enough to it that I feel like they are experiencing all kinds of systems that are saying something's not working. This is not sustainable. We have lots of problems here. Now, I'm talking about colleges broadly when there's like an entire spectrum of, like we said, profit, nonprofit or small private elite universities, big state schools. But I'm not worried about them getting a free pass because I think that they understand. I think this sort of cultural conversation is just advanced enough. It's like this isn't working. Something isn't working everybody. I'm not worried about that motivation missing from the colleges themselves, I guess, is what I would say. But I love that idea and I would like to add that to the list.  

Beth [00:44:11] I am worried about that motivation. Just because while I think everyone feels like this isn't working, inertia is like a very strong force. And I don't see a lot of pieces moving. But my second question is, then what? So what would you wish to see next? The government does this gesture. They won't forgive all of it, just forgive everything that exists as of today. What happens for an 18- year-old next? Do we continue these programs? Like, what would your vision be after this?  

Sarah [00:44:41] Well, I mean, if I'm waving a magic wand, I would say one thing that we really messed up is deciding that 18-year-olds can sign on to all these debt. That's also not working, was a bad plan and we need to walk back from that. I think the grand gesture would be great if we said, okay, look, this was not working. The way we were doing this, the way we were saddling individuals with student loan debt to pay for higher education, that was a failed system. And so either we need to pick up the pieces that we did before where we fund it. So we match this debt forgiveness with increased federal funding for scholarships and incentives on the state level so that they can also fund colleges, which they have not done to the level that they were doing.  

Beth [00:45:32] Some states have put more money into higher ed and some have put less.  

Sarah [00:45:36] But I think even when they're putting in more, the demand is rising. And so, to me, it feels like it could go with a with a sort of government moment. A campaign that says, okay, we're going to stop asking the individual to fund higher education. This is the moment where we're going to decide as a society that we've made this grand gesture and moving forward, this is going to be a societal investment in education and not this debt driven model for higher education. It's not like we don't have examples of that. I mean, we have done that in the past. And, I mean, I think you could do lots of things. I think you could do a service model. You could expand on the military model for funding of higher education with civil service or volunteer service. I think there's lots of programs that work that we could expand on incentives looking at states that do this and do this well, expanding on their incentives and encouraging that model in other states. But I'm like for real a magic wand territory right now. And I understand that.  

Beth [00:46:44] If you were given the option of forgiving all student debt that exists today.  

Sarah [00:46:49] Federal debt.  

Beth [00:46:50] Federal debt. Correct. And I'm not saying that these are comparable price tags, I have no idea,  I'm just trying to get at prioritization here. Or establishing universal two years of community college or equivalent vocational training for everyone. Which would you choose?  

Sarah [00:47:08] Like, why do I have to pick, wouldn't that be the compliment I'm talking about? It's like we're going to forgive this. And so that we're not handling that like, well, what do we do with 18-year-olds that come next, we're going to complement this with two years of community college. Why do I got to pick? Don't make me pick.  

Beth [00:47:24] Well, it's just a lot of money. And, I mean, sometimes we do have to have a conversation about how much money we're spending and whether the public support is there for it in an environment where we are already having a conversation about whether we've pumped too much money into the economy. Part of the argument for forgiving student loan debt, especially in a recessionary economy, is that you want people to be able to buy houses. You want people to be able to have kids. You want people to have more money to just spend as consumers. And we have the opposite problems of those right now. And we have people who can't buy houses.  

Sarah [00:48:01] As we say. I don't think anybody can buy a house right now.  

Beth [00:48:04] But the thing is, the housing supply is already too tight. So lots more people are ready to buy houses. Not exactly where we want to be right now. We have inflationary pressure. I think that's more complicated than just calling it inflationary pressure, but that is happening right there. Conversations about whether Coid relief was too big. Have we already pumped too much into the economy? And so just saying we do have to make some choices or at least most of the country believes we have to make some choices about where we're putting money. I would feel better as someone who is a representative, accountable to constituents, looking at those forward looking measures than the backward looking measures.  

Sarah [00:48:44] I guess I just think that the backward looking measures do affect the future. And I think the economic reality of putting cash in people's hands versus forgiving debt are very different. I think that the flush of Covid relief would feel and impact people differently because what do we always talk about? Like, economics is about feeling and in so many ways, both personally and on the macro level. And I think personally a $2,000 check for the government versus, like I said, even someone who's paid it off recently, the emotional impact of not carrying 10, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 worth of debt, that's a different reality. Maybe we have more houses because people are like, oh, well, now that I don't have this $50,000 worth of debt, I can qualify for a business loan and become a home builder. Or now that I don't have this $50,000 of debt, I can do child care, which is what I really love, but I couldn't afford to pay my bills doing that job. Now that I don't have this 10,000, $20,000 in debt,  that's -- you know, if Covid checks led to a great resignation where people are really reexamining their choices, to me, debt forgiveness on this level is hugely societally impactful. To me, because of the impact, that albatross feels so different to me. I don't think we know. I think we would be shocked. I don't think it would feel like this one time impact. I think we would see changes even from doing it one time for decades and decades. I mean, I think even if they do this 10,000, I think it'll be interesting. There will be all kinds of social scientists that'll be all over this studying what this led to in people's lives. And I think it would be a future prioritization. I really do think it would be.  

Beth [00:50:47] Well, I knew we would disagree about lots of this. And I think the biggest thing that I want to say about this issue is, again, like we're allowed to have soft disagreements. I would not vote for this. And I also I'm not going to run around saying this is the worst thing they could ever do, because I don't want that albatross for anyone. And I think if you're going to do this and you feel like this is the best place to put money, this $10,000  means tested idea to me lines up with the data about trying to put this money in the households that it would help them.  

Sarah [00:51:15] So you would vote for this. You just wouldn't vote for...  

Beth [00:51:17] I would not vote for this, but I'm not mad about it.  

Sarah [00:51:19] You wouldn't even vote for the $10,000.  

Beth [00:51:21] And nobody's voting for this. The administration's talking about doing this unilaterally, which is like a whole other conversation. But if I were in Congress and this were in front of me, no, I could not in good conscience say this is the best place to put this money. Even the 5.8 billion, what would a $5.8 billion investment in housing look like? I mean, this just does not rise to the top of the priority list in 2022 to me, but I'm not mad about it. All right. We are sure you'll have thoughts about this and we look forward to hearing them. And I'm sure it will continue to enrich our thoughts, because I do think this is one of the most complex policy discussions going on that is often discussed as though it is not complex. So I hope that we brought a little complexity to it and we'll look forward to hearing even more from all of you. And next step, really the part that we're all here for today, sarah's conversation with Amos about his birthday.  

Sarah [00:52:25] Hello, Amos, and welcome to Panstsuit Politics.  

Amos [00:52:28] Hi.  

Sarah [00:52:30] Are you nervous?  

Amos [00:52:31] Yes.  

Sarah [00:52:32] Why are you nervous? It's just me and you talking.  

Amos [00:52:35] Because everyone's going to hear it.  

Sarah [00:52:37] But they're not hearing it live. So if you don't like something you say, we can take it out with you. It makes it a lot easier that way.  

Amos [00:52:45] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:52:45] So if I stumble over my words, I can just say, "Simeon, and take that out," because he's the one who cleans up our podcast for us. Does that make you feel a little less nervous?  

Amos [00:52:53] Yes.  

Sarah [00:52:54] Okay. So you're here because you're about to turn 11. It's a big year. Why is it a big year?  

Amos [00:53:03] Because I'm about to turn 11.  

Sarah [00:53:05] And you're going to?  

Amos [00:53:06] Middle School.  

Sarah [00:53:07] How do you feel about that?  

Amos [00:53:09] I'm nervous.  

Sarah [00:53:11] What are you nervous about?  

Amos [00:53:14]  It's like we're going to be walking around a lot. When usually it's just for classes all right next to each other.  

Sarah [00:53:25] Well, you don't walk in a line. You're on your own to find your way to your next class, right?  

Amos [00:53:28] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:53:28] Are you worried about getting lost?  

Amos [00:53:30] Yes.  

Sarah [00:53:30] Okay, well, that's definitely something we can work through beforehand. We can get at the feeling lost. I'm very excited that you're going to be in the band and you're going to play what instrument?  

Amos [00:53:40] The trumpet.  

Sarah [00:53:41] I thought it sounded great when you tried it out at the band room. Are you excited about that?  

Amos [00:53:45] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:53:46] And you're going to be in choir because I'm kind of making you.  

Amos [00:53:49] Yes, you are making me. And I'm not excited about that.  

Sarah [00:53:52] Thomas your best friend is going to be in choir.  

Amos [00:53:54] Oh, I think you told me that. Yeah.  

Sarah [00:53:57] Sometimes I have to make you do things because anytime I ask you to do something, what's your answer?  

Amos [00:54:01] No.  

Sarah [00:54:02] Yeah. Why is that? Why is that?  

Amos [00:54:05] Because I think, like, it's not going to be fun.  

Sarah [00:54:09] Why is it your default? Why is your default assumption it won't be fun?  

Amos [00:54:13] I don't know. Sometimes people just try too hard.  

Sarah [00:54:18] Some people try too hard.  

Amos [00:54:19] Yeah, just like at camps. It's just trying too hard.  

Sarah [00:54:22] Oh, they're trying too hard to make it fun for the kids at summer camps. What's your favorite summer camp you've ever been to?  

Amos [00:54:27] Favorite summer camp? Lego Camp.  

Sarah [00:54:32] Lego camp. You liked the full Lego Camp.  

Amos [00:54:33] Yeah. Lego coding was really fun. 

Sarah [00:54:37] Okay. What else would you like the people to know about you? What are your favorite things as you turn 11?  

Amos [00:54:42] I'm going to get a phone.  

Sarah [00:54:44] An old phone without a SIM card.  

Amos [00:54:46]  Yeah.  

Sarah [00:54:48] But you are currently the only member of our family without a phone because Felix got one for his continuous glucose monitor, so it does seem a little unfair.  

Amos [00:54:54] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:54:56] Yeah. So you're excited about that?  

Amos [00:54:57] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:54:57] What else?  

Amos [00:55:01] Uh, I don't know.   

Sarah [00:55:05] Well, what's your favorite thing? Your show and your food that are related. What did you just have for lunch?  

Amos [00:55:13] Ramen.  

Sarah [00:55:15]  What would you have for lunch every day if I'd let you?  

Amos [00:55:17] Ramen.  

Sarah [00:55:19] Yes, exactly. You're very into Japanese culture.  

Amos [00:55:22] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:55:22] Yeah, because we're hoping to go to Japan, right?  

Amos [00:55:25] Yes. That's probably going to be one of my favorite trips.  

Sarah [00:55:30] Yeah. Do you like our trips?  

Amos [00:55:32] Yeah. Just not when they're, like, on end. Like when I'm going to, like, one trip. Then you get home for like, I don't know, like a week and then go on another trip again.  

Sarah [00:55:43] You do not like to be tightly scheduled.  

Amos [00:55:44] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:55:45] You like a lot of downtime.  

Amos [00:55:46] Yeah.   

Sarah [00:55:48] Yeah. You are my child on that. You really prefer to watch T.V. above almost anything else. You're making a face, is that not fair?  

Amos [00:55:55] I mean, I guess so.  

Sarah [00:55:57] What's it like to have a mom who's a podcaster and I'll have all these people on the Internet that are rooting for you that you don't know?  

Amos [00:56:05] I don't really think about it that much. The only thing that like actually like influences is when you're recording and I have to be quiet, so I usually either go outside or to watch TV upstairs, keeping it really low and closing the door.  

Sarah [00:56:19] What about when we were traveling and people recognize me? How does that make you feel?  

Amos [00:56:24] I don't know. It doesn't really make me feel any different.  

Sarah [00:56:27] It doesn't?  

Amos [00:56:28] No.  

Sarah [00:56:28] Well, that's good because I'm still your mom no matter what, right?  

Amos [00:56:30] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:56:32] Is there anything else you'd like the people of Pantsuit Politics to know about soon to be 11-year-old Amos Holland?  

Amos [00:56:37] Uh, no. Not really.  

Sarah [00:56:39] Not really. Well, thank you for coming on our show. I know it's not your favorite thing. It's not like Felix.  Felix longs for the spotlight. It's not your favorite thing, huh?  

Amos [00:56:49] No.  

Sarah [00:56:50] All right. I love you.  

Amos [00:56:51] Love you.  

Sarah [00:56:52] Happy birthday.  

Beth [00:56:56] Thank you, Amos, for your guest appearance and happy birthday to you. Thank you all for joining us today and all week long as we have processed some pretty hard stuff. We just keep going back to together is what we have and we're so glad that you're part of that together with us. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.  

[00:57:24] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:57:29] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:57:35] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:57:39] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliot. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handly. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs.  

[00:57:57] The Kriebs. Lauri LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:58:15] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nicole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  

Sarah [00:58:26] You have to be still when you're recording, because everything you do makes noise.  

Amos [00:58:30] Huh?  

Sarah [00:58:30] Uh-huh.  

Amos [00:58:31] Okay.  

Sarah [00:58:32] Being still is hard for you.  

Amos [00:58:33] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:58:37] Is there anything else you'd like the people of Pantsuit Politics to know about 11-year-old Amos Holland. Let's try that again now that the dog is barking. Sorry, Simeon. Cookie, hush. Cookie. Come. Cookie. Well, do you see who's at the door?  

Felix [00:59:00] It's um --.  

Sarah [00:59:02] Clint? All right. Can you tell him to hold on just a second? Tell him mom will be right there. Sorry, Simeon.  




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