Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything)
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Topics Discussed
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Episode Resources
Thank you to Fred Dews for so generously sitting in the interview chair. today. Fred produces podcasts at the Brookings Institution, a think tank in Washington, DC, where has has worked in various digital communications fields for over 25 years, including creating and hosting the award-winning Brookings Cafeteria podcast from 2013 to 2022. In his personal time, Fred likes to do genealogy and family history research, write for his blog PublicHistorian.com, read historical fiction, and spend time with his family at their Northern Virginia home.
Find Fred Dews:
Podcasts at Brookings: www.brookings.edu/podcasts
Personal blog: www.PublicHistorian.com
Thank you to Clint Harp and Kelly Harp for hosting our team at the Waco Hippodrome this weekend.
TRANSCRIPT
220503_PP_Now What_How to Move Forward When We-re Divided (About Basically Everything).mp3
Ali [00:00:00] Hi ladies. I'm so excited to celebrate alongside you during book launch week. I'm grateful to have been able to be on your launch team and read the book early. Wanted to share with you an experience I had this weekend with my mom that was greatly improved by learning from your work. My mom and I disagree fundamentally on a large variety of issues, mostly as a result of my own shifting and beliefs over the past decade. A combination of growing up and learning more in the national shift in politics from the right. Despite several difficulties in our relationship, it's been a priority to maintain a relationship with my kids only grandmother. This weekend, my family was visiting my parents and generally steered clear of political discussions. But at one point she made a comment about how nobody wants to work anymore. My dad chimes in with, "Because of all these damn government handouts.".
[00:00:46] Won't give you the play by play, but suffice it to say that I was really proud about how I was able to have the conversation and lead with my values. To share that I see the situation differently than they do, but that we don't have to agree. That I'd prefer for people who need help to get it, than for no one to be able to take advantage of the system. But ultimately, we were able to have a less heated political discussion while respecting each other's boundaries and hopefully understanding each other's views more clearly. I wouldn't have been able to have this conversation without the influence of your work, your books and your podcasts. So thank you for sharing what you've learned with kindness. Have the best book launch week available to you. Ali.
Sarah [00:01:31] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:01:32] And this Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:01:34] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. It is a big day here. It is the launch of our book. Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything). Now, listen, we have been eating, breathing, sleeping this book for months. Maybe you haven't. That's fine. But today you must eat, breathe, sleep it because it is the launch day. Now, we are having our launch party tonight. We're going to answer our questions. I'm going to share a nineties country playlist that I have poured my soul into. You know, it has a story arc. The playlist has a story arc. There is love. There is loss. There is redemption. I'm really proud of it. I'm using the word playlist loosely because it is 6 hours long, but you're going to love it. Now, if you are not listening to this episode the day it comes out, how dare you? Because we are kind and generous people. We're going to extend the deadline. So if you buy the book this week at all, fill out the form on our website that's linked in the show notes and you can claim your preorder bonus and we'll just send you a recording of our party tonight and the country playlist. So get excited.
Beth [00:03:01] Well, in addition to celebrating with all of you tonight and via the odyssey of country music that Sarah has compiled for all of us, we have also chosen to have the most special conversation about our book today with a longtime listener of the show, good friend, who we've had the opportunity to meet in person several times.
Sarah [00:03:21] We've hung out in a hot tub. Important trivia.
Beth [00:03:24] That is not what I would have added to his bio. But thank you, Sarah. Please welcome Fred Dews to the show. Fred's official work life is also quite impressive. He is a multi-media project manager at the Brookings Institution and an interviewer extraordinaire. But he's here today as our friend and as someone who has read now what as part of our launch team and the person that we thought could best help us talk through why this book might be interesting to you. What we were doing when we wrote it. And and now what for Now What? So, Fred, thank you so much for joining us.
Sarah [00:03:58] Thank you, Fred.
Fred Dews [00:03:59] Well, you're welcome. And thank you both so much for inviting me to talk with you about your amazing new book. Sarah, I'm glad you mentioned the hot tub incident, but --
Sarah [00:04:09] Isn't it, Fred? That makes it more exciting than it was.
Fred Dews [00:04:12] There were other people there. But I just want to say, I enjoy all the times I get to spend with both of you here in Washington, DC or at various podcast movement conferences, like where I met you guys in 2016 in Chicago. And I've watched you grow this podcast, grow this community over the past six years, and it's been impressive to watch. But also because it's the voices that I think we need in our in our country right now. And this book adds to that in a marvelous way. So I want to say congratulations to you both on the publication of your second book.
Beth [00:04:45] Thank you so much.
Sarah [00:04:46] Thank you. Thank you so much.
Fred Dews [00:04:48] Permit me, if I can, to ask you some questions about this book. Now What? How to Move Forward When We're divided (About Basically Everything) I want to know what are your feelings on publishing the book, especially compared to when you published your first book, I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening three years ago. And perhaps more broadly, how do these two books complement each other?
Beth [00:05:08] I feel very differently about the publication of Now What than I felt about I think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening. We wrote, I Think You're Wrong in a context that by the time the book was published felt very different. I'm very proud of what's in that book. I still think it has lots of helpful advice. It is certainly a great starting place. If you are entering political conversations without having done some work on yourself, kind of thinking through where am I? Why am I here? Where do I want to be next? I feel so different about this book because I think it meets the moment. I don't feel like we wrote the book and then the world went upside down and we published it. I feel like this book was written with a really clear understanding of where we are. And how we can move forward together. It's right there in the title, but it really does apply. You know, I think what we've said here is, okay, you've done your personal work and it's still very, very, hard. So what's next in your relationships? What matters to you? And it's not a prescriptive book, it's a book where we're just inviting you to think with us because we don't have all the answers here. But we have some questions that we hope help people get unstuck.
Sarah [00:06:19] I'm really excited about this book. I was really excited about the first book. I love the process of writing books. I know it's hard and it's emotional, but I love the permanency. I even love the way it sort of catches you at a moment in time and sticks you there. I think that's good for you. I think it's good to sort of mark where you are and remember and have that moment of I don't feel that way anymore. I've sort of moved past that. That place. I just think that's good for us. To remember that. To remember like that's how I felt about that and I don't feel that way anymore. To remember, to sort of mark the growth. And I'm sure that that will be true of this book eventually. But I love the process and I love having to clarify and put it in a place and now it's going to stay there. And this book is much more personal than our first book. There's a lot more personal stories in this book that I really enjoyed sharing and writing about. And I hope that people feel that they care in sharing our stories and trying to say, like, "We know this is hard, this is where we've been through it," instead of that sort of instructional tone. I think that's the complementary aspect of the two books. I think the first one, we were really just trying to say like, here's what we've learned. Here's sort of the the steps and processes we can recommend. Whereas, this book I feel like it's more invitational. It's like, let us invite you along this journey we've walked and try to give you as much empathy and care and just that sense of like you are not alone. Other people are in this with you.
Fred Dews [00:08:01] I will say that that's one of the best parts about what the two of you have been doing over the past seven years, is taking us on a journey with you in conversation and relationship. And this book certainly does that. So let's dive into the book and go through some of your ideas in some more detail. And there's so many great ideas, we can't cover them all in the time we have. But I want to talk about one thing in particular, and that's what I think is a call for people to engage or re-engage as citizens of this country and ultimately of the world. Is that a fair reading?
Beth [00:08:35] Absolutely. And I like that you pulled that out to mean more than just the country, because I do hope that the book is a call to be active in every space that you're in. And sometimes that's smaller than being a citizen of the United States or even of your community. And sometimes it's much larger. So I love that characterization.
Sarah [00:08:54] Well, and I think that reflects the journey the show has been on. I think when we started, we were really engaged in the national political scene, and it's not that we aren't anymore, but I think that we tried to engage as citizens. And when you engage at one level as a citizen through that lens, it infects all the other levels. And I think that's really what we're trying to pull apart in this book too. Is to say, like, there's not one answer because these levels of connection are so different. Are you talking about conversations you're having with your parents? Are you talking about how you feel about global climate change? Like, we have to sort of pull those threads apart and see what differentiates them and what connects them. What's the same? That's what happens when you start thinking about yourself as a citizen of the United States. Then you realize, well, I'm also a citizen of my county. When my husband or partner and I talk, we're also talking as citizens together. And I think sort of figuring out that connective tissue and also the separateness of those spaces, is really what we're trying to walk through in this book.
Fred Dews [00:10:06] Well, the book itself is a journey through those different levels of connection. You do start with our families of origin. You have the families we create. You have our workplaces. And you have our local communities. And the circle keeps widening out into our larger communities, how we interact with government, how we interact with the world. And so it feels like not only a call to re-engage as citizens, but just a call to connect, despite our differences on all these different levels.
Sarah [00:10:34] Well, and I hope what people do is develop the skills to see those connections, because you talk about a controversial political issue and we have a tendency to reduce it. It just becomes black and white. It becomes a very two dimensional thing. And I hope what people learn is not that there's just like one formula for parents and one formula for national politics, but that when we can see these sort of concentric circles, when we can see the different ways we interact with each other, we can also see that the skills that I might use in a conversation, even on Facebook, could be helpful in a conversation or a context that I need in my workplace to cross purpose those skills and see those differing levels of connection. Because I think it takes the pressure off when you realize like, oh, I don't. The reason this is hard is something to do specifically with the space. Not because everything's broken, not because I'm bad, not because you know all is lost, but because this space, this particular level of connection presents its own unique challenges. And, paradoxically, some of the skills I learned over here are applicable in this space.
Beth [00:11:46] And I think the flip side of releasing some pressure, which I really hope the book does, is also making us see that because we are showing up as a citizen in some format of our families, of our workplaces, of our world, we don't just get to float in existence in any of these spaces. Even on social media, being there makes a difference. And when you just exist in a space, you don't get to decide what kind of difference it makes. And so I hope that by really intentionally seeing ourselves as citizens of all these different spaces, we can intentionally commit to making positive contributions in the spaces.
Fred Dews [00:12:25] Let's turn for a moment to one of those levels of connection, and that's families of origin. You note in the book that you get more email about navigating political conflict within families than on any other topic. And that was largely the focus of your first book, I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening. In Now What ,you write, "Instead of trying to fix the partisan divides in our families, we are working to try to see them better." What do you mean by see them better?
Sarah [00:12:53] I think when we don't approach them as a problem, but just a reality of humans gathering, especially humans with a lot of shared history and shared stakes and shared realities, that we realize that there's a lot at work here. Again, we shrink them down, right? We say like, they're wrong. They're crazy. They're selfish. I'm right. And what we're really trying to say is, listen, that still might be true. At the same at the end of this process, maybe there is some selfishness there. But what's informing that? Like, where's that coming from? Because there's no connection, there's no healing, and there's such loneliness. That's what we hear from people in all these messages. There's such loneliness when I just decide I can't connect with you on this anymore. Because I think we carry this, and I don't think it's always true, but I think we carry a narrative that these are the people that we're supposed to be the closest to. And for a lot of reasons, that's not true in every family. And it shouldn't be true because of toxicity or trauma or abuse. But I think we carry this set if those things aren't present and we're still disconnected, especially from our families of origin, especially over politics, we carry this sadness like we've done something wrong, like we failed at something. And just saying that out loud and speaking through these complexities and realizing there's not something wrong with you, there's not something wrong with them. What we're doing here is hard. The reason it's coming up in every family is because there's some universality to that hardness, that difficulty. And there is an ease and easing up when you can just name it and you can just be curious and examine it instead of trying to either fix it or compartmentalize it and push it away.
Beth [00:14:46] Yeah, I think that political conflict gets scapegoated in a lot of relationships right now. It's treated as both cause and effect as something that just came down and hit our families like an asteroid maybe during the 2016 election. And that's clearly not the case. If you can't talk with your dad, your uncle, your sister about an election, I'm certain there are other topics that create a lot of conflict between you as well. And so where are those coming from? Why are they happening? What do they tell us about each other? I'll give you an example of this that I can't stop thinking about. You know that we're reading Colin Woodward's American Nations and using it to help us think about the midterm elections. And I keep thinking about the section where he's talking about greater Appalachia and how many people in greater Appalachia are likely to just list American as their only heritage that so many people in this region do not know their family's origin stories, their families histories, where they came from, what culture really sits behind them before they lived in this country. Well, when you start to think about that, of course, critical race theory or Black Lives Matter or multiculturalism in general, diversity, equity inclusion initiatives are hitting a nerve here and situating it in that kind of context within your family. Okay. This has struck me as something that my beloved relative is obsessed with and I don't understand why. What do we know about ourselves that we can start stripping away to better understand why we're having this fight instead of just doing the fight over and over again?
Fred Dews [00:16:25] Well, let's stick on that personal note for a minute. Sarah, you talked about how this book is more personal than your first one. Throughout the book, there's lots of vignettes from both of you sharing very personal stories. Sarah, you talked about being an eighth generation Kentuckian, so I wondered if you could talk more about why you chose to put those very personal anecdotes throughout the book.
Beth [00:16:49] When we started writing this book, we intended to tell a lot of stories because I do think a lot of this political conflict lives in the stories. And we began writing other people's stories. We interviewed some listeners. We kind of crowdsourced a lot of the problems, the things that people were navigating, because we really wanted this book to be immediately and practically useful to readers. But then as we were writing, we just realized something about this feels wrong because you can't tell other people's stories as effectively as you can tell your own. And part of the problem in politics is that many of us are always trying to speak for other people. And so we scrapped where we were and started again and said, "Let's make this book about us and about what we know and what we see and what we're living all the time. And invite other people into this through the lens of our stories, hopefully in ways that encourage and invite them to tell more of their own".
Sarah [00:17:44] And I want to say, though, that all of those stories listeners shared, really informed how this book was structured, the problems we were trying to solve. Like, we ended not not sharing the individual stories, but the stories helped write the book because it really illuminated for us what are the common themes among what people are struggling with? And, look, it's not an accidental. They were the themes in our lives, too. That's why the stories that we share worked. Is not because they're just some sort of unique solution to how we fixed it in our lives, but because we struggle with the same things that everybody struggles with. And so being able to say, which is what we want this book to do, you're not alone. This is not a personal failing or just an individual issue. Like, this is something that's happening to people across the country.
Fred Dews [00:18:40] Well, those stories also help the reader go on the journey with you, which is really what happens on your podcast and in your speaking engagements overall. And I want to stay on this for another minute. You each have children and you have a section called Raising Citizens. Section in the book called Raising Citizens. Could you talk about your different approaches that you take to transmitting political messages to your children?
Sarah [00:19:05] Yeah, we take very different approaches because as regular listeners know, I have three boys and Beth has two girls. And so for me, what I really want them to understand is that women's voices are normal inside political conversations. I don't want them to see that as a dog walking on its hind legs, you know. And so I want them to develop the skill of listening inside a political conversation. I want them to develop the skill of allowing particularly a woman to have a forceful opinion. And so I don't mind articulating my opinion to them. I'm not worried about my three little white boys being bullied into not having opinions of their own. Like, the world is going to do a fine job of telling them, like, what do you think about this? And so I want them to hear what I think about it. And so then we have a conversation from that. It's not like I shame them into my opinions, but I put them out there pretty forcefully because I want them to develop the skill of listening to that. And understanding there's nothing abnormal and perfectly acceptable about it. And then in maybe using these opinions they hear from people different from themselves to inform their own opinions.
Beth [00:20:17] My parenting is different. I think that it is because I have two girls. I also think that some of this is a function of our personalities and styles which are always going to take us on different paths. When my girls want to talk about an issue, I really first try to just help them understand what we're even talking about. So if it's a foreign policy issue, I get out the globe. Where are we talking about in the world? If they heard on the bus somebody saying, "Oh, Joe Biden eats babies." Okay, where did they get that? Why are we talking about this? Where might they have heard that. And then once I kind of lay that foundation, I'll let it sit for a minute. And if they seem interested in continuing to talk, because, you know kids attention goes all over the place, and letting them lead is really important to me. But if they want to keep going, I'll say, "Well, what do you think about this now that I've told you a little more?" And sometimes they'll ask a question or develop an opinion. And I ultimately do share with them how I see things. But I am very curious about, once we've once we've established what we're talking about, where they want to go with it. And often they take it and make connections that are really profound and teach me something and I try to say that back to them. Wow, you just really taught me something. I never would have connected these two things. So it's a really rewarding process. I think it's one of the most fun parts of being a parent.
Fred Dews [00:21:34] I agree. As a parent myself, I'm a parent of a teen. And so those conversations, they just get deeper and they actually get more complicated, and to be honest, more challenging for me personally to try to see the world through my teen's eyes. Well, I'm going to quote one more time, at least one more time, because I love to quote from your book. I have five pages --
Sarah [00:21:55] I love to hear myself quoted.
Fred Dews [00:21:57] I think I have five pages of quotes from your book. I could just read them all. Actually, you should read them all. Let me read this quote and ask you both to unpack what's going on here. And, again, it's about raising citizens. "Citizenship is a group activity, so raising citizens cannot be a solo endeavor."
Beth [00:22:14] We read a lot of research that informed this part of the book. It is not a heavily footnoted book. We did not want to make this an academic work. We really wanted it to be fun and to feel good and to feel like it had a sense of lightness and ease. But we did a lot of research. And scholar after scholar, policy analyst after policy analyst will tell you exactly what Senator Elizabeth Warren says often, and we quote her in the book, that we just need help. We need help shepherding people through the world at all ages, and especially when we have children. Children need adults in their lives who are not their parents, loving adults who they trust. They need people to admire. They need to see lots of different ways of being in the world, lots of different ways to create a family, to create a rewarding life. And I think all of us need someone to release that pressure and to say, yes, ask the people down the street to watch your kids. Say, I cannot possibly cook dinner tonight, can you help me? Invite a friend to have a conversation with a child about something that you're struggling to talk with them about? I don't know exactly why and how, even after all the reading that I've done, that we got to this point in many parts of America, especially and in many parts of like middle class white America, where we believe that we have to raise our nuclear families alone. But I think there is much to learn from the cultures that for centuries have raised children and community. And that's a direction that all of us need, and I think on some level are craving.
Sarah [00:23:56] I would just like to know how one raises a citizen of a multicultural democracy with over 300 million people with one perspective. How would that even work? To raise a citizen in America in the 21st century and think you know best and you're going to do it alone. I think some people believe that as if they have to implant the proper way into their children. We see that in the school fights. We see that in the curriculum fights. Bless those people. I almost feel sorry for them, almost. But I think some of us don't feel it as, like, I have to, they feel like a responsibility. Like a duty. They feel this like pressure and guilt that they have to impart this perfect perspective as they raise citizens in America in the 21st century. And I just want to say, like, pump the brakes, you're not by yourself. Also, kids don't do what you say, they do what you show them. And so showing them that citizenship is an exchange. That it's going out there. It's trying something, realizing it wasn't for you. It's letting yourself be worked on in community boards and volunteer positions. And being frustrated with politicians and also speaking about them like they're still whole and complete human beings. And I think just teaching kids that we're all trying to figure this out and you're going to be a part of that. You're already a part of that. I think that's the best thing that we can give our kids and realize we don't have to hold all that. And I think that's part of how we think about parenting. I wrote a blog post a long time ago that was like, I'm not an expert in my own kid. That's too much pressure. This idea of like, well, I know my kid best. I mean, do you? I don't know. Like my kids are newly diagnosed type one diabetic, believe I don't know my kid best right now. Believe that there are experts in diabetes that understand what's going on in Felix's body way better than I do. And so because I think that just creates so much pressure and I think we do that in politics, and we do that in education, and we do that in so many ways and it's like a little Dr. Phil moment. Like, how's that working for us America? Are we happy with the results?
Fred Dews [00:26:26] Let's pivot now to the second half of the book. You have focused on the communities closest to us in the first part. And the second part you expand to the communities a bit farther away. Our churches, nonprofits that we interact with, our schools, government institutions, social media, and then ultimately the world. And I really want to drill down here because your perspective on how we interact with institutions really resonates with me so much. You write, I'll quote again, because I love to quote you, "We started treating our institutions like products. When we interact with our institutions, we only have our individual needs in mind."
Sarah [00:27:04] And, look, that's not a character flaw. That's what we've been trained to do as consumers. We have been trained to consume. That is the messaging we sort of take in at the highest level. Just that's the message we get over and over again. Like social media, advertising, all these places, we're taught to act like a customer, like a client, like a consumer. And what we're really trying to push people in this part of the book is to see themselves as participants, as citizens, as members of these institutions. And I think we write about this in the book. There's the great moment in the Rob Bell podcast where he says, like, we are the committee. I think he's quoting Chariots of Fire, the movie, where everybody's like, "But wait, we are the committee." Like, this is our institution. This is our church. This is our school. And I don't mean that in an ownership way because you see that. You see people showing up at school board meetings and behaving as if the school belongs to them. It sits on their shelf and they get to decide. And that is so toxic and so disconnecting. Instead of inviting people to participate.
[00:28:18] And participation means you don't get your way every time. Participation means you're going to be frustrated, but you're going to, as Beth says, you're to disagree and then commit. That's what happens sometimes. But you have to learn that. You kind of have to put that in your cells and put that in your muscles and be out there in the world and experience that frustration and know you can leave a board meeting or an event so frustrated. I would even say in some of my experiences in life, I have left meetings feeling betrayed as a person. And I can still look back at my time in those institutions with gratitude and see that, yes, there was frustration and betrayal and even heartbreak, but that I still learned, I still contributed, and I'm still proud of my time. And I'm talking about community institutions. And I just think that that's really, really, important.
Beth [00:29:19] One of the things that makes writing a book really difficult for me, Fred, is that it is a consumer posture that people get a book in. I feel like with our podcast, our regular listeners know that we are not here to entertain. We are here to invite listeners into a conversation. A book goes out and a necessary part of the book going out is saying to people, "Will you please write a review of the book?" And just that question, just that need changes the posture. And it becomes, what do I think about the book? Did it entertain me? Did it make me think the way I want to? Do I like the writing style? How do I feel about it? Which is fine and normal. And, again, there's nothing wrong with it. And we do need people to do it. It is an important component of trying to share the book with more people. And at the same time, that posture just fundamentally alters the experience. And I think that we are more accustomed to that posture. That's the posture we practice than one that says, what else is going on here? I have really been changed by the Nice White Parents Podcast. It really helped me in concrete, tangible ways figure out how to practice what I knew to be true, to look at the school and say, "Actually, this isn't best for my individual kid, but I can see how it is best for the whole class."
Sarah [00:30:43] Yes.
Beth [00:30:44] Whenever I go substitute teach, I think my daughters don't need a 15 minute bathroom break, but lots of their peers do. And getting those peers collectively through this process requires this time and this attention and these procedures. And then you just kind of step out of it. And when you start to see yourself as one part of a whole and that the wholes needs often run counter to the individual needs, it just relieves that sense of let me be the reviewer of all experiences. And helps me say, What would I desire in the long term for the vast majority of us here?" And it's nice. I think it's really refreshing. It makes you not want to be the reviewer anymore.
Fred Dews [00:31:33] Well, I enjoyed being a reviewer of this book. Just as a book co-op book, it's eminently readable. As I mentioned, I have pages and pages of quotes, but it's also extremely useful. And the parts funny, we don't have to go into it now, but there is a chapter that has the word poop in the title. You're going to have to go read the book to find out.
Sarah [00:31:56] That's my favorite review so far.
Fred Dews [00:31:57] Okay. Go read the book to find out about the poop. Let's switch to national politics. Sarah, I heard you say recently that this section might have been one of your favorites for a variety of reasons. In one way, you talk about the role of trauma in our national politics. You compare it to childhood trauma and its effect on us as adults. And then you talk about our founding traumas and that trauma leads to more polarization. Can you talk more about that?
Sarah [00:32:27] Yeah, we were really invested in saying something new and different about the polarization. I did not want to get to -- we couldn't leave this level of connection out. That would not make any sense. But we didn't want to just rehash like, oh, well, party politics are broken and there's income inequality. Now, all those things are true. But we did not want to sort of rehash this same conversation. And I think what really connected for me in this section is not thinking about I think there is a role for thinking about individual trauma in the way that we carry that and hurt people hurt people. But also just to put ourselves in the mindset of like, what have we been through as a country? What happens when we think about the trauma we've experienced as a nation? Because what are we trying to do when we're addressing polarization? We're trying to reconnect to each other through that role. Instead of seeing each other perpetually as enemies on the national stage, what we what we are all sort of -- well, some of us, are desperate to do is to reconnect to each other, to see that we share that identity, that we are in something together.
[00:33:41] And I think sometimes seeing what we've been through together is a good way to do that. And that's what we try to talk about in the [Inaudible]. Like, look what we've been through together. Look what we are trying to heal together. Look at what informs our story as a country, these traumas. I love that Jennifer Senior's piece after 9/11 where she uses an individual family who lost their son and brother in 9/11. And at the beginning of the piece, the therapist, I think, says to the mother, like, "Grief is a mountain and not everybody's gonna make it to the top." Like everybody climbs at different paces, everybody deals with it differently. And that's what's so hard with national trauma. Is like some people are going to deal with it by doubling down on this patriotic narrative. Some people are going to deal with it by unearthing and excavating the trauma. But what I hope that chapter does is just at least put that frame on it so that we can see through that lens and see that it's not just our successes. It's not just our politics. It's not just our controversies that inform us as citizens and connect us as citizens. But it's also this history that we've experienced together as citizens, as Americans.
Fred Dews [00:35:05] You must have had in mind when you were writing this section the very deep controversies about the contested ground of our founding. We have, for example, 1619 project on the one hand, and the 1776 committee on the other hand. I mean, how do we find common ground when the ground itself, the original ground, is so contested?
Beth [00:35:27] I hope that working our way there helps with that process because the ground of the story of our family is contested. And the ground of how this friendship fell apart is always going to be contested. And so I hope that by walking through each of these levels on which we relate to other people, we can kind of see, oh, well, that of course is contested. Of course, we don't know everything that unfolded. Of course, we're telling different stories. Of course, we need different stories around this. Okay. Now that we've established that, that we're just people in this dimension too, that the ground shouldn't be firmer about the origin story of this country than it is about the origin of our lives and our livelihoods. How can we sift through that together? How can we sift through it? We know it's harder with these bigger shared stories because you have more voices and perspectives. You also have more agendas around setting what the story should be, but just allowing it to be a set of stories and a set of people's histories and not just like cold, hard facts about history, but meeting those emotional needs for a story that we have in every other space. I hope that that softens things enough for us to hear each other, work together, see the value in pushing on each other's version of events a little bit.
Sarah [00:36:58] Because I think we decided if you don't deal with trauma the way I want you to, you didn't experience it. You can definitely see that in the national narrative. And I think we talk about the 1619 project and the 1776 project, and what I hope people take away is, they're trying to climb the mountain. They're just doing it in their way. And you don't like it, but that doesn't erase the fact that they're trying to work through something just because they're not working through it the way you want. And to see that like they're doing something for a reason. They're trying to make sense of the world and the trauma and the intense experiences that we've had as a country. In the same way you are, they're just doing it a different way. They're using the tools available to them. And sometimes the only tools are erasure and fear and scarcity and control. I think what's so hard is that we we have to coexist with those coping mechanisms. We have to show up for each other and understand that if we're going to continue on together as a country, there has to be a path forward in the face of those very, very, very, different strategies.
Fred Dews [00:38:14] I want to leave listeners with one more quote from the section before we turn to one of the final sections of the book. And that is, "We are attempting to grow the world's first multicultural democracy, and our moments of growth are sown with hard work, not hatred." So just imagine that being said by Beth and Sarah. Global Politics. We expand the circle all the way out to global politics. And so you talk about re-engaging or just engaging as American citizens and connecting with each other. But you also talked about our connectedness globally. But then you say that our thinking is stuck in the boundaries of modern maps, even as the maps have changed. So how have the maps changed?
Sarah [00:38:55] It's so easy to think this nation state setup we have has always been that way. But man, take out a globe. Because if you bought it at a Salvation Army is incorrect. You know, like, those lines have changed. We are new countries. And maybe the lines themselves haven't changed everywhere in the world, but they're certainly contested lines. I mean, look, we obviously wrote the book before the invasion of Ukraine. And so we have this real live example of things that we believe to be permanent are not always permanent, particularly on the global stage. And I think some of that from our perspective as Americans, where the lines have been pretty set for a while, I would argue for too long and I would like to upend some of those lines. I would like to draw some new geographical lines in America, but I think that definitely informs it. And I think once you loosen your grip on that and understand that this is, again, global politics, just like all politics, are decisions and rules about how we live together. And sometimes those rules are in conflict. Sometimes they're being contested violently and otherwise.
Beth [00:40:12] And, you know, the maps changed literally. And the landscape changes metaphorically all the time. The technology that's available to us, how we communicate with each other, what type of work we need to do to sustain ourselves. I wonder sometimes will this book need an addendum where we talk about what we owe to our fellow humans who are living in a colony on Mars? Or if we were to discover humans somewhere else, what would we owe to each other then? What would our duties be? What kind of citizenship would we think about if we didn't share this planet anymore? I think there would be one, because the only thing I know for sure in a world where there is so little certainty is that I do think something connects all of us. And so when something connects all of us, there are going to be places where we drive each other crazy, where we find inexplicable acts of generosity. And how do we navigate all of that will always pose a really difficult set of questions. But I felt it really important, especially when we talk about the globe, to really think forward because we can see right now how fluid, as Sarah said, the boundary lines we draw for ourselves are. I think the way we share resources is going to have to become more fluid. The way that we move about in the world is going to have to become more fluid. And so knowing that, exploring what we are to each other and what we owe to each other is one of the most important questions we can be asking ourselves.
Fred Dews [00:41:47] So stepping out from the book for just a moment, are you both optimistic about the future, about our ability as Americans and as global citizens to live in relative harmony and to solve the big problems?
Sarah [00:42:01] Fred, I have three kids. Of course, I'm optimistic. I know other people don't experience history the way I do. But when I go to a point in history and I thought, think, man, that looks like where we are now is a piece of cake, right? We think the press is bad now, take a trip through the late 1800s. And that always kind of leaves me in a place of optimism. Like, I'm sure they felt like it was the end of the world and it wasn't. It wasn't the end of the world. They worked through it. They figured it out. I think there's just a sense to feel like our challenges are completely unique and insurmountable. And I've noticed in the last just month or two that there's been a real shift, not particularly around conversations about climate change, but in a lot of places and political spaces where people are saying, "We cannot inhabit a place of hopelessness and anxiety and this sort of dumpster fire mentality." It's very dangerous. It's a dangerous way to think about politics in the world. And so I hope that that's easing up a bit and that we can inhabit some optimism and see what's coming in the future as an area of possibility. Not because we're going to fix everything. Fixing is a verb we should not use when humans are involved, but improvement and continuing sort of advancement and hopefully enlightenment. And I love humans. Listen, my money is always on humans. I can't help myself.
Beth [00:43:32] I think optimism is necessary. I don't know what our fuel is, if not optimism. When I try to really think through that. Okay, what is the fuel, if not optimism? I always get an answer that feels like an awful lot of subtraction, and that subtraction at some point ends in zero. And that's just not where I want to be. When I am sitting with people in person talking about even the hardest issues, there is always a moment when people kind of lean back and say, "Okay, I'm going to think about this a little bit differently." There is always an opening. And it just feels to me like the work is taking those openings and celebrating those openings and continuing to walk through them so that they can over time get a little bit bigger and a little bit bigger. And the openings that I find in myself, the more that I spend time with people, and especially with our listeners who have vastly different life experiences than I have. They create openings in me and that feels good. That's the active addition that I want to live in.
Fred Dews [00:44:30] Well, I feel like this book is itself an opening that we ought to celebrate. And I hope listeners and I hope the whole Pantsuit Politics community feels the same way. Now what? How To Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything). Sarah and Beth, it's been an honor to have this opportunity to interview you on your own show. So thank you for that.
Beth [00:44:54] Thank you for taking the wheel here, Fred. We really appreciate it.
Sarah [00:45:05] Thank you to Fred. That was so generous of him to come on here and do that for us. We really, really, appreciate it. Speaking of generosity, we had a weekend full of generosity in Waco, Texas, with Clinton and Kelly Harp and all of the listeners who traveled to Texas. California, Arkansas, people came from all over. Of course, lots of Texans who we love and adore. So thank you to everyone who came to Waco. We had a fabulous time.
Beth [00:45:30] We did. Clint Harp and Kelly Harp are the most generous hosts.
Sarah [00:45:35] They're so nice.
Beth [00:45:35] The most gracious people. Clint is funny. He did such a great job moving the show along. I just had a really good time. It's always funny when we're out doing things like this. Lots of people will say to me, "Are you good? Are you okay? Is this hard for you?" And I mean, it makes me tired because I am very introverted. It's a lot of peopling for me. But it's so wonderful. I mean, to be able to feel people's energy and hug people and put faces and names together, it is a gift. And I would do it often if life allowed it.
Sarah [00:46:11] Yeah. This was our first big event since the pandemic, so it was our first chance to really see people and connect back with people. We had a VIP event where we all just ate a lot of charcuterie and hung out and it was so fun. I mean, one listener came up to me and said, "You made me want to be a boy mom." And I just think that is the best compliment. But people are always just sharing their hearts and saying, "You helped me see this differently and I adore you. And you helped me do this." And it's like I have like a love hangover.
Beth [00:46:43] It was really fun to meet people's parents and spouses and friends. This funny thing happened in the VIP event. I didn't intend this, but I just kind of ended up staying at a table because that is my way at an event to just kind of find a spot and be there. And people -- I didn't even realize it was happening, formed a line to just come through and see me at this table while Sarah and Clint walked the room.
Sarah [00:47:06] Yeah, because I came in and said hello. People yelled real loud and then proceeded to work the room very quickly.
Beth [00:47:14] Yeah, and that's just not me. So I hung out at this table. At one point, someone comes through the line and she's there with a friend who has gone to the bathroom. But her friend is a fan of the show. She had like just listened to her first episode of the podcast. And so I said, "Hi, I'm Beth. I'm one of the hosts of the show." And everybody around laughed so hard and it was just a really fun moment. But it was great to meet some new people. One lady came to the VIP event who only knew us because she follows the Hippodrome, the place where we had it very closely. And she said, "I saw you on the list. I like to get out and do things. So I checked out the podcast. I really liked it and I just thought I'd come say hi and meet you all." And it was great to meet new friends as well as see people like Kelly, who I think has been to every live show we've ever done who's so kind. Just lots of old and new friends. It was great.
Sarah [00:48:02] Yeah, we had a great time. My mom and my grandmother were there. People were like, "We've heard all kinds of things of you from your mom and grandmother." And I was like, "They are lies. Don't listen to anything they have to say." We had a blast. Our team was amazing. Maggie rocked it. Ashley, who's now just our beloved, came and helped Olivia. Y'all, she took a thousand pictures. That night we were sitting there because that night I watched my first episode of Fixer Upper Ever Cleanse episode. I'd never seen an episode, and we were in the actual Harp house they do on the episode. It's such a surreal experience to watch an episode of HGTV in the home the episode is taking place in fyi. But as we were watching it, Olivia is like, "You guys, I took a thousand pictures." We're like, "Olivia, how? Well, how do you do it?" So we can't wait to start sharing those. She's incredible. She took pictures at our Los Angeles show at our first tour, and we used them so much, we were like, "Would you like to come to Waco?"
Beth [00:48:58] And Alise did a wonderful job getting us set up for this event. I really missed Alise's energy at this event because Alise is really good at saying, "We have to get these seven things done in the next hour and we're going to do them now." And I missed the management that she brings to these events. And so it's wonderful to both be with your team members and see them thriving and to kind of celebrate the gifts that Maggie and Ashley and Olivia brought. And also to get to miss Alise was a nice feeling too. You know what I mean? To just appreciate, like, gosh, we're so lucky to have the best people that we get to work with all the time.
Sarah [00:49:36] Lucky to hang out with all of you, and Lucky to have an incredible invitation from Clint and Kelly. So thank you to everyone who made Waco a success and who came in and joined the event. We're going to do many more this year, get excited. And, of course, all of you are an essential part of this day, the launch of our book. Thank you if you have preordered. Thank you for buying copies for your friends and family. We can't wait to see all of you tonight at the launch party. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.
Beth [00:50:13] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.
Sarah [00:50:18] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.
Beth [00:50:24] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.
Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:50:28] Martha Bronitsky, Ali Edwards. Janice Elliot. Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hasler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.
[00:50:46] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lily McClure, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katie Stigers, Karin True. Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Villeli, Kathryn Vollmer.
Beth [00:51:02] Amy Whited, Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.
Sarah [00:51:13] We hope everybody had the best -- no you say that one. Let me say that again. We hope everyone -- we will be back in your ears on Friday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all. Oh, wait, no, let me say about the book one more time.