Elon Buys the Bird App
Dr. Ashley Ward, Candidate for US Congress
Topics Discussed
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Episode Resources
ELON MUSK BUYS TWITTER
Elon Musk Talks Twitter, Tesla and How His Brain Works (Ted X via YouTube)
“Infamy is Kind Of Fun”: Grimes on Music, Mars, and Her Secret New Baby With Elon Musk (Vanity Fair)
Snapchat Adds 13 Million More Users in Q1, See Steady Increase in Revenue (Social Media Today)
NOW WHAT? CANDIDATE SERIES
Succession Season 1 Conversation (Outside Politics, “The Price of Gas” Pantsuit Politics)Transcript
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:00:00] We had that sliver of space where we're all standing in the same spot. And so now we can talk about heat and we can talk about climate change. And I'm not the enemy anymore. I'm their friend. And we're all experiencing the same thing. And we had a great time. And it was a wonderful relationship that went on for years. And we developed some really great programs, but it started with relating to them and meeting them where they are. And that is the biggest lesson of my career with communities. We have to meet people where they are.
Sarah [00:00:34] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:35] And this is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:38] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.
Beth [00:00:54] Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. We're going to talk today about Elon Musk's purchase of Twitter. I don't know if you've heard that that's happened. But it is a multidimensional subject, apparently. So we're going to get into it.
Sarah [00:01:09] Can we call it the bird app the whole time? That's what my husband started calling it. He's like, "Here's what people on the Bird app are mad about today." It makes it better. So Elon bought the bird app. That's what got to talk about today.
Beth [00:01:20] Then we are going to continue our series on the upcoming midterm elections by speaking with Ashley Ward, candidate for Congress in North Carolina's fourth District. Ashley Ward is many things, including a mother, a climate expert, a lifelong North Carolinian. She has so much to say about the Tidewater region, which is where we are in our traversed through America's regions under the framework of Colin Woodard's American nation. So Ashley Ward will be coming up. And then outside of politics, because we here are not owned by Elon Musk or anyone else, we can do what we want on our show, we're going to catch up on Succession season two. Did it air in August of 2019? Yes, it did. But I just finished it, which makes it Pantsuit Politics breaking news.
Sarah [00:02:04] So there will be spoilers because that's the best part about being years behind. The pop culture is light guys, it can be full of spoilers and no one can complain. So there you go. So we are in full celebration mode here at Pantsuit Politics. Now what? Our new book comes out on Tuesday. I have not put that in my bones. I was scheduling something for Tuesday night. And I'm like, what am I doing? Why does my third seem important? Oh, right. Like, I just -- sometimes the bigger the day, the the less my mind wants to fully integrate it. But here we are. Here we are mere days away from our show in Waco. We cannot wait to see all of you in person. I'll be hugging so many necks. I'll be hugging necks. I'm so excited to be there.
Beth [00:02:51] But she doesn't mean as a threat. It might sound like a threat a little bit, but it's not a threat.
Sarah [00:02:55] No, it's not a threat. It is a little bit of a threat. And then we're going to have our virtual launch party on the actual day, which is also going to be a blast. We hope you have your preorders in. We hope you filled out the form for the launch party link. It's so exciting. The launch team is a blessing. You're all a blessing. Everyone who's bought the book a blessing. You're a blessing to us.
Beth [00:03:17] My friend, Anna, sent me flowers this week with a card about how everyone always celebrates the launch day. But really, like, the launch week should be a celebration because there's so much that you've put into it and it's finally coming into the world. And it really made my week and and also kind of gave me that more visceral sense of, oh, we're doing this now. Like, it's going to be in peoples hands. They're going to read it. They're going to have reactions to it. We're going to get to talk about those reactions more. So I just really appreciate the gracious feedback that we've gotten from people who have read the book already. Just hearing how practical it is in application to your lives. It's very, very, rewarding and exactly what we wanted and I can't wait for more people to have it.
Sarah [00:04:02] My mom said the same thing. She was like, I love how you give us specific things to say. That seems to be the most favorite part of many, many, readers. Is that we give literal examples of like, if you're talking about this with a family member, if you want to bring this up at work, if you're looking to get more involved in your community or you have a moment at a board meeting where you want to say something, like, here are actual words to use. People are loving it.
Beth [00:04:32] Well, Sarah, as you mentioned, Elon Musk bought the bird app.
Sarah [00:04:36] The bird app, he bought it.
Beth [00:04:39] I would like to just disclose my bias and say that if I have a favorite social media platform, it is Twitter. I prefer it strongly to Facebook and Instagram, so I feel like I should be having more of a reaction to this than I am. Everyone has feelings about it, and I really don't. This is one of the rare things for me that I am interested in, but I don't think it is all that important yet. I think it could be depending on what develops from here. But right now, I don't feel like there's a lot of new information. Very rich person spends money on a thing that interests them is not a headline for me. Social media platform controlled by an imperfect human. That's not news either. But the details are that Twitter is going private. Elon Musk is buying it for $44 billion. This is a very, very, good deal for the shareholders of Twitter because Twitter has never monetized to the extent that other platforms have, especially Facebook.
[00:05:41] I was reading about how the average Twitter employee generates a little over $600,000 in revenue, and the average Facebook employee generates $3.3 million in revenue. Now, I think that there are aspects of that that are why I prefer Twitter as a platform. The absence of monetization, I think, has kept it more interesting than Facebook and Instagram. But this quote from Michael Nathanson that appeared in Axios really caught my attention. That this sale is the final evidence that the idea of Twitter has always been far more valuable than the actual long run operations of Twitter.
Sarah [00:06:21] The idea of Twitter also takes up more space in a very select group of Americans head than actual Twitter takes up space in all of America. We know that the users of Twitter are elite. They're more educated. They're more likely to be coastal. They're more likely to be fascinated by politics. It's so interesting to me. And also that is true in the way Donald Trump ran the news cycle for literal years using Twitter is also relevant. So I had to get out of my head. I had a very strong emotional reaction based solely on the idea that he would let Donald Trump back on the platform. I'm just going to be honest about that. Like, that just consumed all of my feelings about this purchase and I did not want that. And I do not want that. Even though Iglesias made the point that maybe that would be the best things for Democrats electorally because they'd have a villain again. But I do not want that.
[00:07:23] I do not want him platformed. And Donald Trump has said that he's going to stay on true social. So, we'll see. But I try to get out of my immediate emotional reaction, which that's what was driving. I'm just trying to be honest. So I got on the TED Talk that Elon Musk did where they really asked him about this purchase and listened to him speak. I try to remind myself that Elon Musk is an actual human being as much as he is a two dimensional characterization of himself that occupies so much space right now, I think, in the American psyches. He is the richest man in the world. And also that money is based so much on the valuation of his companies and not the fact that he's, like, stockpiling riches like some Scrooge McDuck. I really don't believe that Elon Musk is driven to acquire wealth. I think that he is driven by other things. That he is both an innovator completely driven to make electric cars the preferred travel choice of the world, definitely not America.
[00:08:38] Also, he's trying to colonize Mars. He builds rocket ships. The things he does and the way he thinks is so outside the norm. For me and for most Americans, I think it's very easy to get drawn into this characterization of him. But I don't know Elon Musk. I don't know him. We've never met. And because he's so different -- and I think he is very different, I think the way he was raised is different. I think the way he thinks about things is different. I think the way his brain works is different. And we want to shove him through this filtration system and put him in a box and it just doesn't work for him. And I think you see that with the way he's become this sort of conservative hero, which is dumb.
Beth [00:09:34] Bananas, given that climate change is like a big part of how he's made all this money.
Sarah [00:09:39] Right. Climate change. And I read a story today about how he waited 6 hours in line to shake Obama's hand one time. But also liberals want to make him a villain, which is also dumb. I really don't think that he is this corporate raider just trying to acquire wealth. I do not see that motivating him to the point where he's like, he doesn't want to own a house anymore. One of the most enlightening things I think I've learned about Elon Musk is reading the Grimes profile in Vanity Fair, his two time baby mama, and like how they think about things, and their discussions about artificial intelligence, and this reality simulation, all these things. And I'm like, "He's just operating on a different plane." And I think you see this desire to categorize him in a way that is exactly what he hates. Like, he hates the binary. I'm not saying he's enlightened. I think there are many things in which he is clunky and that's being very kind.
[00:10:35] Some of his tweets are incredibly problematic. There are accusations of racism and discriminatory practices at his plants, but I don't think it's because he's trying to hurt people or trying to control things. I think he just acts. And because he operates at a plane that operates in sort of a way and thinks in a way most people don't, sometimes the impact of that is amazing. Sometimes he revolutionizes electric cars. Sometimes he sends really offensive tweets. And I think trying to predict what that sometimes will look like now that he's purchased Twitter -- which is in desperate need of rethinking and is problematic. And no one disagrees with him, I think, or very few people disagree with him that open sourcing the algorithm and bringing some transparency to what gets promoted and what doesn't is helpful.
[00:11:27] And also categorizing something like Twitter as a town hall is problematic too. I just think there's so much going on with him to the point like does he really need to buy it? Like, isn't he busy enough is sort of a question I have with regards to his purchase of Twitter. But there's so much going on with him and there's so much sort of information you can intake about him and his companies that you just see a sort of meltdown. Like, we want it, we want to make it easy. He's good, he's bad. This is good. This is bad. And I think Elon Musk, as a person and even as a character, is very resistant to that.
Beth [00:12:05] All of my beefs with Elon Musk are really much larger beefs that he just happens to reflect. So the fact that he has decided and you see evidence of this on Twitter, but also beyond it his choice to host SNL, he has decided that you can't just be a business mogul, you must be a celebrity. And I don't love that in the world, but that's not particular to him. It's just a thing that's happening that he's capturing. I hate the way he talks about free speech. I think he has no idea what he's talking about in terms of the sexual constitution and legal principles. No idea. But the vast majority of American citizens don't either. We have made the two words free speech together pretty well meaningless with our discourse, and it is our right to do so. So here we are. Though, the way that he sees himself as completely above the law, just constantly trying to give the middle finger to the SCC, I don't like any of that.
[00:13:13] I also recognize, though, that there are lots of people doing that just much less publicly than he is. And maybe him doing it publicly gives us a chance to talk about that and figure out how we might do it differently. When I think about him just as a person and I strip away all those things that just bug me in the world, I still think that he is a net positive. That's become my new formulation. I love this podcast about 90s music that The Ringer makes. It's like 60 songs that explain the nineties or something like that. And they had a whole episode about Steven Jenkins, who's the lead singer of Third Eye Blind, and what a terrible human being he is. And it was just like, quote after quote of these people saying terrible things. And one person said about him, I think he's a net negative. And I was like, that's the harshest thing I've ever heard anyone say. This is my new formulation in life now. Am I being a net positive? That's really all we can hope for, is to be a net positive.
[00:14:12] And I think Elon Musk at this stage here on April 27th, as we are recording this podcast, I think he is still a net positive. I think he's done a lot of good in the world. I understand that people want to get on Twitter and say, well, what would you do with $44 billion to make the world much better? And if that makes you feel good, fine. But the truth is, whatever you think about his efforts at space exploration, a lot of value will come to Earth from that. I don't know that it's great that a super wealthy guy could colonize Mars, conceivably. Again, that is a problem that I have with systems, not just with Elon Musk, but I also know that space travel and space exploration has yielded considerable benefits to humanity and will continue to do so. And so I kind of feel like we are the broad we are freaking out about this because it is a representation of other things that we're annoyed about. And it's pretty easy to talk about. And it is pretty inconsequential at the end of the day because the vast majority of people are not influenced by Twitter. The people who are on Twitter are very, very influenced by it, but the vast majority of people are not. And so it doesn't matter all that much. And so so why not get our emotions exercised about this instead of something harder?
Sarah [00:15:31] Yeah. I mean, I think that people have problems with Elon Musk that Elon Musk didn't create. Like, I have a problem that he doesn't pay taxes. That's not his fault. It's because we tax income, not wealth. Like, I have a problem that people can build this much wealth, but that's a systems problem that there's no use getting mad at him about. And in some ways, he's disrupted systems that I am thrilled he disrupted, like the car industry. So I think that he stands in for something for so many things so often. And I think the other part of this is how we feel about Twitter. And I think it is easy to assume or desire that status we talked about like we want the social media landscape to stay the same and often we talk about it as if it's the same thing and it's going to stay the same and it feels like, well, this is a permanent thing that's going to affect us forever.
[00:16:19] Well, I felt like Facebook was the end all, be all for our years, and that did not turn out to be true. And we're talking about Tik Tok, but Snapchat, someone out there growing its user base and Instagram, I think is probably jumped the shark. You know what I mean? Like, they're not static. They do change and their influence on society changes. And I do think it's despite the fact that Twitter is an elite platform, I do think it has impact beyond what actually happens on the platform itself. I think it informs a lot of the takes that Americans absorb, even if they never step foot on Twitter. And I do think that's important and it has impact. But I think the idea that like, well, now the richest guy has control this platform is very reductive. I don't think he wants to, he clearly has not even really thought out what he wants to do. When you ask him to articulate it, he goes back to the open source algorithm over and over again and doesn't have great answers and says, I don't have all the answers, I don't know exactly what I want to do. I'm open for ideas. So there's a yeah, there's a chance this could grow his power.
[00:17:18] There's a chance this could kill Twitter and there's a million things that could happen in between. And I think when we talk about it as if it is one thing and it means one thing, that's how you know, you have entered a bad take, is because it is not we're bad at telling the future, we're bad at predicting things. Even Elon Musk is bad at that. He, I think, is an open enough thinker. He's a little better than most, and that's shown in his business practices. But he's not perfect. And just because he can, think outside the box when it comes to cars or even rocket ship or Mars, doesn't mean that it's not that Twitter is an easy nut to crack because it's not. And like, if he kills it, I wouldn't be sad if the bird app died. I just wouldn't. I wouldn't. It's not my favorite platform, even though I do check it. And I also feel like we talk about social media platforms as if we're not the committee. As if there's this thing that we can't control, as if we haven't all gotten frustrated with Facebook and we're tired of Facebook.
[00:18:12] And therefore, Facebook's market share has shrunk. And as if I don't I mean, I think part of the reason Twitter didn't grow and it is 1/15 of these other platforms it went public with reflects some of that frustration and user experience on Twitter. Like it's still reflected there. It's not this thing that exists outside of us because it is a social media platform that we compose. And so I just think holding all that complexity while also acknowledging that we're just getting out some feelings about lots of things with this story, I don't want to downplay it. I think it has enormous impact, but I don't think it's always in the ways we anticipate.
Beth [00:18:47] The immediate concern that I have is for the employees of Twitter, I can't imagine what it feels like to be in the storm of all of this, to be concerned about your job security. Any time there's a big acquisition that creates enormous amounts of stress for so many people whose names we'll never know.
Sarah [00:19:05] Yeah, because I don't think he's exhibited enormous empathy for his employees. That's not a history of that with him.
Beth [00:19:10] Right. And I also think that his pretend democratization of big decisions where he'll like do a Twitter poll, would feel real bad to me if I worked for him. And so I hope that he hears all of this outcry and decides, well, I am really going to go in and listen that he doesn't go in and just fire a bunch of people and start changing things up immediately, but listens for a while and hears people out and starts to really understand what he's grappling with. Instead of believing that he that he knows everything from the beginning. Hearing people out is probably a good transition point to a truly democratic process as we are approaching the midterm elections and thinking through who we'd like to represent us in the United States Congress.
[00:19:57] We're really thrilled to share this conversation with Ashley Ward of North Carolina about the Tidewater region of the country and about her interest in being the first climate expert in Congress. We have been using Colin Woodard's American Nations as a guide for the midterm elections. We've really been trying to think more regionally and locally about Congress instead of just nationalizing everything. So today we are focusing on the Tidewater region. And to do that, we're joined by Dr. Ashley Ward, candidate for Congress from North Carolina's fourth District. Dr. Ward, you are recommended highly by our long time beloved listener, Bren. And when we learned that you are a climate scientist mom, a lifelong resident of your district, coming from a family with very deep roots there, we totally understood why Bren wanted us to talk with you. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:21:03] Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Beth [00:21:06] Well, before we get into the Tidewater region and your district in particular, just tell us a little bit about why you decided to run.
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:21:16] What a good question. There are kind of two answers to that question. I'll tell you the first that probably motivates me the most. So I've worked in communities all of my work in climate change has been on the ground in communities working with other what I would call community engagement people around climate change. So the spectrum of whether it's agricultural people, people concerned about public health, atmospheric scientist, whoever, a large group of people who work in communities on climate change. And I've done this for over a decade. And one of the things you often hear, I know I would like to see practitioners talk about those of us who are in the community is we often talk about this disconnect, of what you hear in politics and in the national media versus what you hear in the community about climate change. There are two totally different conversations going on.
[00:22:14] And we often say, if we could just elect people who were as committed to this issue, elect people who really do understand what climate change looks like on the ground. Not this concept, this scientific concept that people talk about. They would understand that for most people, climate change looks like, how much longer can I live in my house until my septic tank fails? How many days next summer am I going to have to make the decision between running my air conditioner or buying groceries or medicine? This is what climate change looks like to many of the people that we talked to and over COVID I was like everybody else. It really gave us a moment to stop, step back, really reflect a lot of downtime. And I was having some conversations with people who do the work that I do. And finally, I just thought, nobody's coming for us. If we want this to be different, then we have to actually step up out of what we're doing and get involved in a different type of public service. And I really felt called to do this because I feel like, I didn't know this at the time, but since then, someone told me I would be the first climate expert ever elected to US Congress. When someone told me that, I was floored.
[00:23:45] I mean, saddened. It actually illuminated some things. We have many climate champions in Congress, but no expertise. And it's not just about expertise. It's about the kind of professional experience working on the ground in communities. I remember the faces of the people that we engaged with, the stories that we heard and hear over and over again. You don't forget those things. And so at some point, you say, why am I waiting for someone else to do this? Why not me? And so that was one of the motivations. The other is, as I watched the COVID pandemic unfold and coming from an environmental health background, it took a lot of, I've worked a lot in the public health space as well.
[00:24:32] What happened around the COVID pandemic was puzzling to many people that worked in public health as to how this became such a politicized issue. And I realized hearing people people that I respect and love, talk in ways that I just I could not understand, they would, I realized people just don't trust their government to lead them through a crisis. And as again, as I was thinking about all of this, some of it I think has to do with the fact that the pathway to Congress is so very narrow that we only have a certain kind of person who can get there, someone who is well-connected or has a lot of money or comes from a family with a lot of money that has both connections and money that the average everyday person no longer sees themselves reflected back when they look at their member of Congress.
[00:25:26] And so why would they believe what they say or trust what they say? They don't know what it's like to have medical debt, student loan debt to work an hourly job, to live paycheck to paycheck, have no idea what you're going to do if your car breaks. This is something that most everyday Americans experience all the time, this kind of underlying economic stress that I think they just don't see people in Congress really understanding it, deeply, truly understanding it the only way that you can from having lived it. And so, my own personal background, as you pointed out, is one that is not typical of Congress. I feel like my background is, there are so many people in my district that went back to school as an adult who had medical debt, who have school debt, who. My husband's a teacher. I mean, we're just like everybody else. And so what I am doing is not extraordinary for my district. It is pretty extraordinary for Congress. Again, that was sort of the second side of that coin about motivated me to run is, ywe want people who have this particular professional expertise and experience, but also people who have a particular lived experience. And so I feel like maybe in this moment that perhaps I have something worthwhile to offer.
Beth [00:26:43] Well, you said that your background is not unusual for your district, so can you give us a little introduction to your district? What are the major industries? What issues are on people's minds? What are people really proud of who live in your district?
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:26:56] That's a great question. So this district consists of five counties Durham County, Orange County, Alamance County, Person County and Granville County, and about a half a precinct in Castle County. So first, to kind of lay that big landscape, those are really large counties. Three of them are rural counties. Two of them have larger urban areas in them. So it's a pretty diverse district in that respect. However, this is the triangle region of North Carolina. We are one of the. This area is one of the most educated areas in the country. And my guess is because of the highest concentration of PhDs in the country, one of the top we have an incredible university system here with North Carolina A&T, North Carolina Central, UNC Chapel Hill, Duke University and NC State, all in the same region. They're not all in this district, but they're all within really close driving distance to each other.
[00:28:02] So one of the things that I think people are very proud about in this district is this unique combination of private industry, university research and development. We also have, like the INEHS, the EPA here, this grouping that just so happens to create, in my opinion, sort of the perfect storm for real innovation. And so one of the things I think that people in this district are excited about is the opportunity to be part of what I would call the greatest technological revolution in our lifetime around this transition to clean energy and the role that this kind of, what we can play in this district. There are course, there are some tensions in the district. We have some serious issues around housing affordability. In the urban areas, particularly, we have issues around access to Internet and in rural areas. It is no secret to say that, you know, I think this district embodies kind of that tension that we see between urban and rural areas where many constituents that live in the rural part of the district feel like they're often left out of the conversation and don't have a place at the table.
[00:29:18] And they feel like urban areas dominate all of the resources and in fact, all of the conversation. I think we have a real unique opportunity here to be a model for other areas. And how we can bring diverse groups of stakeholders to the table. We're all whether you live in a rural area or an urban area, we all are concerned about some of the same things. Some surveys that came out of the former, the represented retiring representative David Price did a survey in July this past summer about what are the issues that most concerned the district. Climate change was number one from somebody who's worked in climate change just stunned me. I was excited, but I was like. Yeah. So, I do think people here are really motivated around that.
[00:30:08] I also want to point out that we have some of the top medical facilities in the country, in this district with Duke University and UNC hospitals here with medical research. And so this is also a point of real pride for the district, is the advancement in and medical research that this district brings. So there's a lot of exciting things happening in this district. And there are also some things we need to work on. And I think this district, honestly, is a very good representation of what's happening in many other communities across the nation, because we're not completely rural, or completely urban. This district is a good combination of both.
Beth [00:30:52] North Carolina is interesting that way. As I was looking at American nation's formulation, North Carolina actually encompasses three distinct of Woodard's American nations. You've got the Deep South, Greater Appalachia and Tidewater, all pretty conservative politically, but very distinct culturally. And I'm wondering if you think that holds up that you see those kind of distinct cultural values in your state?
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:31:17] One of the things I love about North Carolina is you can drive to the east and you're in one completely different geographic area. And I would say geographic in the sense of just not just physical geography, but culture, human geography, too. And then you turn around and drive to the west and you have something completely different. So it's a wonderful reality to our state that we have this diversity in the state. I think one of the things that often surprises people is North Carolina is still remains one of the most rural states in the entire country. I think we're in the top three or something like that for the population that live in rural areas, even though we do have these big urban areas in the Triangle area, the Triad area, Charlotte-Mecklenburg area. So it is a very diverse state and I think that's true.
[00:32:06] But I also think it's part of the beauty of the state. It's challenging in some respects. And a lot of the growth, the population growth that is happening in North Carolina is around the urban centers in the state. And so it will be interesting to see how that shifts. We have seen some outmigration from rural areas into urban areas in the state. But, we also again, I hate to keep bringing it back to climate change, but one of the things I would say about working, I've worked a lot of my career in rural North and South Carolina. And we talk about sort of the political divide between those rural areas that tend to lean conservative and the urban areas that tend to lean more toward, progressive Democrats and progressive values. But I can be honest with you, I think that when we, what my experience has been that when you get down to the community level and you're talking to people about the issues that impact their community the most, they're not talking about what we see on national news and they're not even talking about politicians.
[00:33:10] They're talking about, I've never once had to convince a farmer in eastern North Carolina that climate change is happening not one time in 10 years. And so I think. A lot of, there is definitely political contention, especially these days. We see a lot of sort of political tension, but there's also a lot of space of agreement. And I think, one of the key takeaways, I think, from my career is sometimes when it comes to engaging with people across a broad ideological spectrum, I think the way people think about things sometimes is we're going to take this big issue and we're going to bring all these people together and tackle this big issue. They think of it from outside in. My approach is totally the opposite. You find that little crack of agreement sometimes and sometimes, man, it is narrow. And you find that little crack of agreement and then you build consensus from the inside out.
Beth [00:34:13] I just talked about this on an episode of ours about looking for the narrowest question and how can we find something universal in the narrowest question. And I feel in Kentucky, a lot of what you're saying that folks who would traditionally be thought of, as, red voters have a lot of passion about caring for the Earth. Sometimes it just comes down to what words you're using to describe the problem and what words you're using to talk about solutions.
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:34:38] Yes. I mean, we say you in everything, know your audience. That's what people say in media. And when you're when you're trying to give speeches or whatever it is you're doing, understanding who you're talking to is really important. I'll tell you a quick little story. So I was hired. I worked with the NOAA RISA program, which, by the way, is a fantastic program if you've not heard of it. RISA stands for Regional Integrated Sciences and Assessments. They have this great idea to connect scientists and researchers with communities to and policymakers. And so it really creates these wonderful conditions for some great ideas that are sustainable, that bring communities into the policymaking process. It's a real passion of mine. And so that was my work with NOAA. And NOAA is the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. They, of course, a huge enormous federal agency.
[00:35:37] But the part of NOAA that I worked for was the RISA program that I described and my job with NOAA on our team, which, each of the RISA teams are geographically situated. There's 11 teams across the country and I worked for the one that worked in the Carolinas. So I worked in North and South Carolina. And what a wonderful group of colleagues I had there. And so each person, the team, they kind of comprise a pretty diverse team. I was the climate health person on the team. We had people who specialized in coastal stuff, people who specialized in drought. So you get this teams of experts together and we connect with communities and do a lot of on the ground entrenched in community work. I loved it every second of that job I loved. So they sent me in September to rural North Carolina to talk about climate change.
[00:36:32] And I remember my parents were like, are people going to be mean to you? Like, are you prepared that people might be ugly to you? And so I was terrified. Honestly, I really I remember I was shaky. So I show up and this is in super red, super rural part of North Carolina. And I get there early, like I normally do, and I'm listening. I always get to places early and listen to the conversations that people are having with each other because they all know each other. So I notice they of course, they're all talking about the weather, which people talk about all the time, and specifically about this enormous rain event that had recently happened. So I'm there to talk about heat exposure because that's my area of research and that's what we were there to talk about. But I stand up at first and I said, my grandmother used to talk about how we don't have rain the same way we used to have it.
[00:37:25] That we need days of slow, steady rain. Now everybody shaking their head. And nowadays we don't get that anymore. We get these massive events that come through and dump a bunch of rain and beat up our flowers and run off the, create a lot of runoff. Everybody's in agreement in this room. They're all nodding their head. We are all in agreement now about what we've been witnessing. And I said, do you all have the same experience? Well, of course, they start speaking up and talking about their experiences with extreme precipitation events and flash flood events in their area. And I said, what you're describing is actually supported by the research. Scientists agree with you. We do see changes in rain patterns.
[00:38:11] Now we're all on the same page. Everybody's in agreement with each other. We had that sliver of space where we're all standing in the same spot. And so now we can talk about heat and we can talk about climate change. And I'm not the enemy anymore. I'm their friend and we're all experiencing the same thing. And we had a great time. And it was a wonderful relationship that went on for years. And we developed some really great programs. But it started with relating to them and meeting them where they are. And that is the biggest lesson of my career with communities. We have to meet people where they are.
Beth [00:38:45] I love that. And I also love beginning with a personal story, because if your personal story matters, then everybody in the room personal story matters, too. Plus, you can't go wrong with invoking a grandma. That's a good that's a good point of connection. Well, as you've been talking about your community, it connects a lot to the history with me. The Tidewater Nation originally recreated a lot of England here in the United States, and you had almost feudal practices. You had a ruling elite, a real focus on respect for authority and for tradition. Not a lot of focus on equality and democratic participation. And I wonder how you see that history altered as it has been by the fact that you're in the research triangle, that so many people have come to North Carolina to study. I just wonder how you sense that history, if at all, in your district today?
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:39:43] Well, I want to tell you a really great story about the history of this district. Durham, North Carolina, is probably the only, if not one or two places where a true black middle class developed prior to the civil rights era. And this happened in large part because of the presence of the tobacco factories, textile mills, which had taken over a lot of the economic, sort of dominated the economic landscape of the Southeast at the time, did not hire they only hired white people to work in the textile fields. Black workers were relegated to working, usually along the river with the dye dyeing fabric. My grandmothers were sharecroppers and they moved to Durham to work in the tobacco factories, much like many, many, many black farmers from the rural south did the same. And they did so because the tobacco factories, the cigarette manufacturing factories, hired black workers.
[00:40:45] And now I don't want to overstate this. They didn't pay them the same wages that they paid white workers. That is true. But they did hire them in ways that no other industries were hiring them at the time. And it created a real opportunity in Durham for something extraordinary. And you have, Black Wall Street that developed in downtown Durham as a result of it, and just an incredible civil rights history that developed in the city of Durham as a result of the presence of the tobacco factories, the cigarette factories there, Liggett and American Tobacco. And now let's see, I think it was 1972 before the tobacco factories, factory was fully integrated. But what had been established at that point in time in this district was a real place of opportunity, economic opportunity and growth for black citizens who did not have such opportunities outside of that area across the southeast.
[00:41:47] It's real, extraordinary history in Durham. And so I think one of the things I think about this district is when it comes to thinking about things, about voting rights, ethical governance, equity in housing, how we can deal with wealth inequities. I feel like we have an opportunity here to lead once again and think about how, from the federal government all the way down to state and local governments, what is the role of government in ensuring that all citizens have equal access to services, to voting rights, to economic prosperity, to all of the issues that we care about health care, education, technology. This district, Durham has been a leader in this in the past, and we can do it again. And so I do feel like the history again, like just like with the research and private industry and universities. There's this perfect combination of things for real innovation here. We can do the same thing with policy innovation in this district, and we have the history to back it up that shows that it can happen.
Beth [00:42:55] Well, it is clear to me that having lived in the district, your whole life has really impacted the way you think about representing it well. I would love for you to just share with people how they can support you and anything else that you want them to know about your campaign.
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:43:14] Well, let's see.I think I guess I would say one thing first at the top is, yes, it's true that I have a particular area of expertise in climate change, and it is an issue that is in top of mind for a lot of people. But I'm like so many people in the district, like I said earlier, I have a daughter that has chronic illness and my husband and I have carried considerable medical debt throughout her life. I returned to school. I graduated from a rural high school in the district Person high school, and then the community college, Piedmont Community College. I went on to marry and have two kids and I return to you and see Chapel Hill at 30 with two little kids, I had a five year old and a one year old.
[00:43:49] And I return to UNC Chapel Hill to get my bachelor's, master's and Ph.D.. And so because of that, I had to take on school loan debt for myself and then subsequently for our two girls. My husband's a teacher. We couldn't then save for their education and also do what we did for me. So I have student loan debt. My family has run a small business in Durham for three decades. So the issues around small business, they are super important to me. And so when it comes to things like health care and education and supporting small businesses, the community colleges and growing our vocational trades, and these things are not politics to me. They're personal to me. I have a personal stake in this. And so that's one thing I would say is people often sort of like to label scientists who run for office as one issue candidates, because I am passionate about climate change, and of course I am, but I live this other stuff.
[00:44:42] This is my life, not just my profession. And so, I would want people to know that about my campaign is that yes, of course, I do have a certain area of expertise that I can bring to Congress, but I'm not such a shallow person. I have deep personal experience and life experience that I also bring to the table. So how to get involved? My web site is Ashley Ward for Congress for congress dot com. We have had about 10,000 homes and we have a serious grassroots campaign with, tons of volunteers who are handwriting postcards, who are knocking on doors and distributing literature, helping us put up yard signs. So if anyone is interested in getting involved in any of those ways, we'd love to have you. My email address is easy to remember. It's Ashley@ashleywardforcongress.com. I check my own email. That's not a staffer checking my email. When you write to me you get me and so I will write back to you.
[00:45:43] And if someone wants to get involved, reach out to me. I'd love to hear from you if somebody wants to ask me a question for clarification on an issue. I've had people do that all the time. Every week somebody sends me a note, hey, what do you think about this or this or this? And I'm happy to respond. To me, an important part of representing a district is being present, being accessible and being, you know, part of the community. So that means I have to be able to be responsive to the community and I start how I mean to go on. So we would love to have everyone come out and get involved in any way that they can. Some folks are nervous about getting out in public still because of COVID, but they're happy to write postcards. So every week I go around and deliver packs of postcards for people, I'll do that this afternoon for people to write postcards so.
Beth [00:46:32] Well Ashley, you're the first person I've ever heard describe expertise in climate as a shallowness of experience. I see a real humility in you as well. And I love that you mention that you read your own email and respond to people. And what an encouraging conversation this has been. If if we're sending more people like you to Congress and I feel very hopeful. So best of luck in your campaign. I hope you'll come back and talk with us sometime soon. Thank you again for helping us better understand the Tidewater region.
Dr. Ashley Ward [00:46:59] Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great time.
Beth [00:47:12] Thank you so much to Ashley for her time and for sharing her thoughts and experiences with us. And now we're on to the real breaking news, which is that I have finished season two of succession. Now, Sarah, you've already finished the whole thing.
Sarah [00:47:25] I got in a space and I was like, okay, I'm here, I'm in it. I'm in with this family, let's do this all the way to the end.
Beth [00:47:32] I understand why I'm feeling that more to you. In the first season, when I was deciding whether to watch the show, people kept telling me, don't binge it, but now I really want to.
Sarah [00:47:42] Not just do it.
Beth [00:47:43] Because I really do want to understand where this story goes next and I'm excited that there's going to be another season. So season two, if you have not followed it is really about the transition of the family through Kendall's behaviors, because season one ends with Kendall having this terrible car crash that kills a person. Season two is about the control that his father gets back over him because of that and them fighting off the hostile takeover that he was helping to orchestrate.
Sarah [00:48:19] And the father manipulating Shiv..
Beth [00:48:20] And the father manipulating Shiv, telling her that she's going to come in and be the CEO only to kind of throw her out in the cold. And Roman trying to be a grown up some days, but really struggling with that. And all of it starts to culminate in this storyline about the really heinous actions that took place through the Cruz portion of the family business.
Sarah [00:48:43] And there's some government interaction and they have to decide how to hold off this government. Actually, they need to sacrifice somebody, basically. So we get Tom being told he might. He's probably just going to go to jail for a little while. It'll be fine. They're all on this yacht talking about jail, talking about who we're going to be, around the table, talking about who we're going to sacrifice, what's going to happen. The dad ends up saying it's going to be you, Kendall, the oldest son. We're going to sacrifice you to the wolves. Kendall goes to the press conference and then says, my dad knew about the whole time and tries to sacrifice the dad instead. But since oh my God, I've totally blanked on the father's name.
Beth [00:49:18] Logan.
Sarah [00:49:19] Logan.
Beth [00:49:20] Callback to our first segment as soon as we found out that Elon Musk was buying Twitter, I just texted Chad Logan Roy saying, Money wins. I think that's what's always true. Money wins.
Sarah [00:49:30] True money wins. I thought the culmination of this season on the yacht was phenomenal. I loved all. I think there was maybe two yacht episodes and I loved them so much. I think this is like the pattern of the seasons, they go somewhere. For the last few episodes they went to the wedding. The first episode they go to another wedding spoiler and the third season. And I it's also just fun to watch the display of wealth and I had no, I mean I guess I did know how ridiculous these yachts are, but wow, I did not know how ridiculous these yachts were. And I loved it. And then I thought Kendall throwing his father under the bus was fantastic. I did. Did you like as you watched it, did you think, yay, I bet this turns out well or blessings. I'm sure this will end poorly as well?
Beth [00:50:17] I have just learned with Kendall that it's never going to be pure. Nothing really, with this whole show, but especially with Kendall, because Kendall really sucks me in and I find myself wanting and I know.
Sarah [00:50:28] I can't help it.
Beth [00:50:29] And then he, like, says another thing. And you think, Kendall? Kendall. but that is what's really great about this show that you think everyone is just despicable. And you see, even in these really despicable people, some very human qualities that you can if not celebrate. At least recognize.
Sarah [00:50:54] Yeah. I don't know what's wrong with me because everybody's like, you're going to love to hate them. And I do not hate them. I do not hate any of the siblings, I do not hate them. And I do think Logan is the villain. And even him I can find some space for not a lot. It's a very small sliver of space. But the three siblings I really do root for and there's a moment in this season where I thought, this is why everybody hates Shiv. She confronts a witness who was sexually assaulted on the cruise lines. And even in that moment, I thought, I don't know, I get it. When she was like, don't trust me either. She like totally turned my perception of her. And I think I just, I love Sara Shulman and conflict is not to be like I operate from people do things for a reason and their reasons are so transparent. Like everything one of these siblings do, like Logan keeps you guessing. Those three never do. And so I kind of feel like I'm never mad at them because I'm just like, bless friend. I understand where you're coming from. You're making the worst possible choices and you're being a huge asshole. And also, I see exactly how you got there.
Beth [00:52:02] The show is just an extreme manifestation of believing that all love is conditional. I mean, and I think that's what's so relatable about it. Even if you've never had this level of money or power or access, we know people who believe that all love is conditional, which means that everything is fair game, which means that anything could be manipulated, which means nothing is ever enough. And it's a terrible way to go through life. It has to be exhausting. I mean, you see the effects of it. It breaks these people down even as they have everything, they have everything and it breaks them down. But it really is just the sense that they're not okay.
Sarah [00:52:41] How do you feel about Cousin Greg?
Beth [00:52:43] I love Cousin Greg.
Sarah [00:52:45] Who doesn't?
Beth [00:52:45] His arc has been very interesting and not what I would have predicted for him. Yeah. I feel like Cousin Greg gets to speak for the audience in a lot of ways. Like the conflict that he feels about things, the dilemmas that he faces, the the way that he's so awkward and doesn't belong in this world, but has been drawn into it. So I.
Sarah [00:53:05] But he's like a wimp.He's such a weird combo of being influenced by them and not being influenced by them. And b it's I think that's why he's such a delightful character, because they're clearly working on him like it's working. And but also, he can still articulate the absurdity of so many of these situations. I just. Yeah. Cousin Greg, have you seen the cut of Cousin Greg and Tom as a romantic comedy?
Beth [00:53:32] Yes, I have. It is very, very funny.
Sarah [00:53:36] It's perfect.
Beth [00:53:36] Now, you told me that I might like Tom better after season two, and I think that's true. I still don't like Tom at all. But I do like the way that he is saying I'm not good with this relationship. I thought the yacht episode when he was in the cove with Shiv talking about their marriage and saying how unhappy he was. I thought that was a beautiful scene. And the way that he said, sometimes I wonder if the sad I would feel without you would be less than the sad I feel with you. I thought that was just masterful.
Sarah [00:54:11] He's really interesting. It feels like they're the inverse. It feels like, they both have this articulated vision for themselves. And you talk about all the time, it's really just about prioritization. And I feel like she prioritizes the vision over the marriage and he prioritizes the marriage over the vision.
Beth [00:54:31] I think that's right.
Sarah [00:54:31] And that is, it is not going to end well. It's not going to turn out well for them or anyone on this show. And I hate it. I really do. I just want to be like you guys have enough money. Like, just take a little bit of the money and get out. It does feel like it feels like a get out story. Like there's just parts of me that just wants to be like, guys, get out. It will be fine. You don't even get to enjoy all the things that this massive amount of wealth brings you, like you-all were on the yacht while simultaneously deciding who to sacrifice. Like what is happening.
Beth [00:55:12] I think that that's the thing about believing that all of this conditional, though, you can never have a moment of contentment. I mean, they talked for half a second about how they would all be very, very rich if this sale took place. But that's just not enough and it can't be enough. And that's the sadness of it. Honestly, that takes me back to Elon Musk, too, and why I hope he doesn't go in and fire a bunch of people because he knew from the outset that Twitter was not going to make him super rich wia Twitter. His control over it could certainly make him even richer if that's his aspiration. I'm not sure that it is, but maybe it is. But the big thing I'm tired of it doesn't have anything to do with Elon Musk, but I feel it in the situation and I feel it through the Roys as well. I am tired of people in places that have plenty of money acting like they don't. And you feel it all through Succession like why can't you just be happy with what you have. Why is it always about more and more and more and the fight and staying relevant? And I think that about Elon Musk. If you bought Twitter just because you think it's interesting and you think it's an interesting idea and it lets you continue your fight with the SEC, fine, but don't run it like avece. Don't strip down expenses. Don't try to grow the userbase 3X or whatever. Like, just run it with some heart for it. Because you can. You have the luxury of doing that. That's amazing.
Sarah [00:56:42] Can we talk about the most heartbreaking part in season two for me was when Kendall tried to talk to his mom.
Beth [00:56:49] I totally agree with you. That whole episode was brutal.
Sarah [00:56:54] I wanted to reach to the screen and shake that woman. And say, like, how could you see your child in such pain and turn him away and then walk away? It was so sad. And how you could watch a scene like that and then feel ever feel anything but empathy for these poor people? I don't care how rich and mean they are. Just, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.
Beth [00:57:27] Yeah. If you don't know what we're talking about. Kendall wants to tell his mom about the car accident that ended season one, and he tells her that he'd like to have a real conversation with her. And she says she's really tired. Could they do it over eggs?
Sarah [00:57:40] Because he's such a good actor. He is such a good actor. And I know he's weird and I know people make fun of his process.
Beth [00:57:47] He's very serious.
Sarah [00:57:49] Because he just in this scene, the pain was rolling off him in giant waves and filling the entire scene. It was palpable. Palpable.
Beth [00:58:01] And then the next morning, there's a note from her that she was probably going to miss them before they leave. So, he never gets to have the conversation. And it explains so much because the mom has to this point been a little mean, kind of catty, but nothing to the level of cruelty that you've seen from the dad or other characters. Even Marcia, I think, had been crueler than she had to that point.
Sarah [00:58:27] But we knew that she had been absent. We already knew her problem was an absence.
Beth [00:58:33] Yeah. And it was one of the most vivid displays of emotional unavailability that I've ever seen on TV or anywhere else.
Sarah [00:58:43] Man. So sad.
Beth [00:58:45] And I just think about like. I contrast that which somebody understood well enough to write with my dad, who still will occasionally put his hands on my shoulders and say, are you happy? You doing okay, Beth? We're so proud of you. But are you happy? Are you good? Like. And it's just no wonder that some of us feel really okay in the world. And some of us can't. And I wish that I could fix that for everyone.
Sarah [00:59:12] I had this conversation with a foster mother of one of my closet kids, where she was telling me about her background and I said, see, like I hear these stories and I think, why am I beating myself up at all about my parenting? When we talk about bad parenting, we're talking about complete abandonment, emotional manipulation, straight up physical and emotional abuse. And I'm over here sweating because I yell too loud. Like, I just, man, oh, man. Just that it's so hard. It is so hard when you think about the stop, just the meanness people can exhibit towards their own children.
Beth [00:59:56] And the power that we hold as parents over our own children. I mean, the way that Kendall quickly discards this woman that he was really into because she said awesome in front of his dad.
Sarah [01:00:07] Yeah. That's the only time. That is the maddest. That's my moment with him where I was like, I'm mad at you when he sent her back without ever say anything when she had given up her place in that show to be at the birthday party. I was very mad. That's the only time I've been like, actively like I've rolled my eyes at him. I thought, he's ridiculous and awkward and laughable, but I've never thought like you're being a jerk. And I was very that's my one moment with him. And my moment with Roman is coming up in season three. For the record.
Beth [01:00:38] What do you think about the Roman Gerri relationship?
Sarah [01:00:42] I think it's weird and I get it and I can't say anything else because it's super relevant. Season three.
Beth [01:00:51] Well the first time I kind of came into play, I was like, I'm very surprised by Gerri's choices right now. Gerri is making choices that I do not quite understand, but the more I watch it, the more I understand it. And I think that's part of the genius of the show and the writing too, in the intensity of work relationships. And we talked about this on Tuesdays episode too. We're so dishonest about the intensity of work relationships. And I think especially when you're operating at this level and everything is this high stakes, you can see how it happens. But anyway.
Sarah [01:01:21] Thank you for joining us for this incredibly relevant conversation of a 2019 television show. What did you want to tell people if they're Succession curious, you had a-
Beth [01:01:30] If you were like slogging through this first three or four episodes, just know that it takes off exponentially towards the end of season one, but especially in season two, it's just exponentially better than those first few episodes. It really is like the term that several people use when I ask if I should watch it was Shakespearean, and I think that's correct. I mean, it really does explore interesting emotional terrain and political terrain and business terrain, but mostly emotional terrain. So, yes, now that you're all caught up, you're welcome.
Sarah [01:02:02] To 2019.
Beth [01:02:04] We'll just keep chugging along here. Maybe we'll watch season four in real time. That would be exciting.
Sarah [01:02:10] That would be fun.
Beth [01:02:12] That would be complicated, though, because the spoilers. We'll see. You can let us know what you think about that. We love hearing what you think. Hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com is the way to communicate with us. We read every single email. They inform our thoughts and our planning for the show in a very intense way. We also appreciate you interacting with us on social media, on our membership channels, and pre-ordering our book. Now what How to move forward when we're divided about basically everything. Thank you again for being here. We will talk with you again next Tuesday. Have the best weekend available to you.
[01:02:53] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D podcast production. Alise Napp is our managing director.
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