Anticipating a Post-Roe U.S.

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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Anticipating the Supreme Court overturning Roe vs. Wade

Marshall Plan for Moms with Reshma Saujani

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:00] People will die because of this.  I don't know how to say it any more clearly. I've worked in a clinic. That will happen. Women go to enormous dangerous lengths when they feel cornered, trapped by a pregnancy. 

Sarah [00:00:25] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:28] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:28] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:44] Thank you for being here with us today and for being with us all week this week as we've launched our new book into the World. We so appreciate all of you. Today, we are going to talk about the leaked Supreme Court opinion and the strong possibility that Roe versus Wade will be overturned. And then we'll talk about efforts to build real support systems around families with Reshma Saujani, founder of the Marshall Plan for Moms. And then because it is important for all of us to contain multitudes, we always end our show with a conversation that's outside of politics. And today we're going to chat a little bit about the Met Gala and Kim and Pete and the dress. And all of that unfolding at the same time as the Supreme Court news, which was a real scene.  

Sarah [00:01:27] Real Scene. Now that Now What is out in the world, what we need is reviews, you guys. So if you're on Goodreads or Amazon or wherever else you read and post reviews, you all understand the assignment and reviewed, I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening and did an absolutely incredible job. So if you like this book and are enjoying it, it will help us so much if you share that rating and or review with other readers. Now, before we head into our conversation about the leaked Supreme Court document, we're going to share some ads. And I'm saying that explicitly because my seven year old son, Felix, has started listening to our podcast, you guys. And he had a listener note for us. He said, You need to tell people when the ads are coming. It's stressful.  

Beth [00:02:10] It was a really good note. So we're going to have a quick ad break here and then we'll be back to talk about the Supreme Court. As everyone knows by now, Politico first shared a leaked draft of a Supreme Court opinion by Justice Alito that seemed to be joined by Justices Thomas, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett. Just a first draft. Explicitly marked a first draft from February. That in no uncertain terms and with a real enthusiasm, overturns Roe versus Wade. And there are many dimensions to this conversation. I am certain we will not scratch the surface of even 25% of the dimensions of this conversation. Sarah, knowing that there are people listening who have heard us talk about abortion over the past almost seven years many times, and also people who are hearing us talk about it for the first time. I wondered if we might give an abbreviated version of how each of us feel about this topic before we discuss the layers of this this newest development?   

Sarah [00:03:27] Of course. Well, I am pretty devotedly pro-choice. My first job out of college was at Planned Parenthood. I believe it is a tough issue for individuals, but I think that's where the decision should remain. I am a woman of faith. I do fall in the Barbara Bush category. I believe life begins with breath. There's an old episode where we talk about Barbara Bush's fascinating thoughts on the topic of abortion through the lens of someone who buried a child. But I won't get into that here. I do understand that I am more radically pro-choice than most Americans, I would say. I'm comfortable with that position. But I think it's always really important to talk about where you fall policy wise and where you fall sort of ethically, because I think sometimes those two things get mixed up in really toxic ways when we talk about abortion. And so policy wise, I'm pretty radically pro-choice. And ethically, I'm willing to have a more curious and complex conversation about it.  

Beth [00:04:42] There's not a ton of daylight between us on this issue, except that I am probably more uncomfortable with it than you are, Sarah. Uncomfortable discussing the issue in a variety of ways, not just with the ethical calculation. I have really been thinking about the ethical calculation, and I use ethics differently than faith, right? I am not trying to have a public discussion about my religious views on abortion because honestly -- and I am grateful for this, I have not spent my life in churches that spend much time thinking or talking about abortion. It's  just not been a central part of my faith journey, and I am grateful for that. So, ethically, I think it is really difficult. And I think that there is a societal function, a collective function in working out the ethics around it, that it's not just an individual decision. But legally I have become much more comfortable saying, "No, I don't think the government has a role in making this decision." I think there is a societal function but not a governmental function. And I have become more convinced of that by listening to physicians.  

[00:06:00]  And understanding all of the ways in which abortion care is a form of care, that we aren't just talking about one type of situation. We aren't often talking about something that feels like a real choice. I think a lot of the language around this debate has hardened in ways that don't match the reality, and learning more from care providers has made me much more comfortable saying, "No, I don't think there's a governmental role here." I think there are roles of licensing authorities  in the medical profession there are really needed ways to ensure that this is done ethically, carefully, safely, effectively. But I have shifted to be probably more extreme than most Americans, in my views, on what legally should be regulated around abortion, because of what we do and the exposure that we have to medical professionals who are willing to share in a lot of detail what walks into their offices and what their options are.  

Sarah [00:07:05] Beth, you spent a lot of time with Justice Alito's opinion that was leaked. Do you find that complexity contained within his opinion?  

Beth [00:07:15] I do not.  I think Justice Alito works really hard in this opinion to not engage that complexity. I think that's his point. I think what Justice Alito might say, were he here with us, giving the most grace and benefit of the doubt that I possibly can. I think what Justice Alito might say is everything that you just articulated is why this belongs to people who are accountable to the public through elections. That that is why this is a legislative function, not a judicial one.  

Sarah [00:07:49] That's a very generous way to describe parts of the country.  

Beth [00:07:52] And that it is why it belongs to the most responsive legislature, that the state legislatures should be best positioned to wade into those complex waters that we just described. Now, as you read on in the opinion, and you see some of the language that he uses and some of how he gets there, I don't for a second believe that Justice Alito would be comfortable with an outcome where 50 of the United States decided that abortion should be legal in all circumstances. And I think Justice Alito would find something in the Constitution to prevent that outcome, for those cases to come to the court in a different posture. So it's not that I think his agenda less, but I also think it's important to say what the opinion says and to be really clear about the impact of the opinion that were this opinion to be finalized in its current form and become the law of the land, then what state law has in place would be governing people's options for abortion care. And that means that in some states absolutely nothing would change. And in some states, abortion would be criminalized almost immediately, and a lot of other state legislatures would be racing to develop their preferred policy around this issue.  

Sarah [00:09:19] Before we get into the deeper complexity of this, particularly surrounding the impact on abortion? Can we talk a little bit about the court itself and all the hand-wringing about the leak and the investigation around the leak? I don't really care about the leak. I kind of feel bad articulating it that way, but that is how I feel.  

Beth [00:09:44] Can you say more about that?  

Sarah [00:09:46] I think what bothers me, like what really bothered me about Justice Roberts articulation in his statement, is the sense of like this is an attack on the court. This undermines the court's integrity. There's a part of me that wants to be, like, if you think this is your biggest problem -- the leak itself, we need to have a conversation. And I think what really bothers me about the framing around the leak and investigating the leak and  to figure out the leak, is it's the underlying assumption is the only way to protect the integrity of the court. It's to keep it the same as it was. To go back. And I just want to go, guys, that's not how things work. I do want to protect the integrity of the court. I think the only way to do that is to go forward into the future and enact some changes on the court. Because what this leak tells us is not that there's some small fix that will get -- it tells us that it's broken. It's broken. So I guess it's not really true that I don't care. I do care. But I think it reflects something fundamentally broken about the court and people's perception of the institution. And so I think it's going to take some very fundamental changes to regain that trust among the American population.  

Beth [00:11:08] So I really enjoy Supreme Court jurisprudence, which is a weird sentence, but I just do. I like to read Supreme Court cases. I like to talk about Supreme Court cases. I like to think about the way this body works and what it represents and how we interpret what these nine folks do, and how essential what these nine folks do is to a functioning democracy. If you remember back during the days of the first impeachment of Donald Trump, there was a lot of discussion about corruption in Ukraine. And so much of what our diplomats testified to about their work in Ukraine was about trying to establish a judiciary that is a real independent judiciary. It's impossible to overstate the importance of a real independent judiciary if you want to create democratic governance. And so I have been annoyed a little bit by the 'The leak doesn't matter' dialog. Because I do think the leak matters, not as an individual act of betrayal. So I'm going to ask you to say more because I would have disagreed with you from the outset, but then when I heard your why, I agree with a lot of your why. I think the leak is representative of a pattern where this institution is losing the credibility. It's losing our confidence in it as an independent body that should have the authority that it has in our system. And I think that's worth a lot of conversation.  

Sarah [00:12:50]  I think the reason the conversation bothers me is because people act like we the people doesn't apply to the judiciary branch. There's this sense of like but it's judges and they're neutral and that's what does it. You guys, no. Like they never have been and they never will be because they're human beings. And human beings aren't neutral. They do their best. They do their best. But there's a lot of structure that is empowered by us that matters to that. And that structure is not functioning. And so we're going to have to think through. It's not this static thing. It's like people think it's set in stone and then we're done and we just got to get back to that stone. No, it's not working. We don't have trust in it. This is just one more reflection of that. And I have respect for Justice Roberts, and I think he cares about the court. But I just kind of want to be like, let go. Let go. Stop that death grip. You're not getting us anywhere. Can you not see it's getting worse? Like, let go. Let's follow this tide and try to anchor somewhere different. Because  you're holding on to this one rock and the water is sweeping over you and about to drown you and the court. And I need you to let go so we can float downstream and find something different.  

Beth [00:14:07] I've been thinking about this a lot, Sarah, because I feel the same way and in many respects, and I also don't have a good idea for him.  

Sarah [00:14:15] I have so many ideas, if you just ask me.  

Beth [00:14:18]  You have so many ideas. What are those ideas? I want to know that. I'm genuinely curious. Because I look at his position, I look at his statement, I wanted him to say something. And then he did. And then I was like, not that. That's not what I wanted you to say or how I wanted you to just say it. And so but then I have been thinking about it. And I do think this is really hard. Even what he said is so problematic. We're going to investigate this. Who is, the Department of Justice? You're not going to let the Department of Justice come in and pilfer through judges papers and email correspondence.I mean, how are you going to investigate it? And what does that mean? And what are you saying when you say there's going to be investigation? You're in this body where every word, every comma matters. So what does this mean? I think what I wanted from him, but I'm really curious to hear your thoughts, is some kind of statement about how he understands that both the way people are hearing this and what they're hearing is a very big deal.  

[00:15:22] And I think that's really all I needed. It's almost like what I said. And here it is again about the slap at the Oscars. I just wanted somebody to come out and say, "Whoa, what a thing this is. And we understand that." And then just leave it there for a minute. I don't need to go guns blazing against whomever it was that took this to the press. And I really don't need everybody doing true crime podcasts via Twitter about who it might have been. I think that's so damaging and so dangerous that we are not appreciating the stakes around it. But, anyway, I've talked too much. What are your ideas for Justice Roberts as an individual in this situation?  

Sarah [00:16:01] I mean, if I was Justice Roberts, which I'm not, we are very different. I would say we the court has a problem. I would like renewed focus on the bipartisan commission reforms. I'd like to take those suggested reforms that they've released inside the court and share some of our thoughts and opinions on those or inside the entire federal judiciary. Maybe that's the next step of the process, so that we can keep moving along this road to real reform. That's what I would have said.  

Beth [00:16:29] Yeah, I think that's a good answer. I think that a lot of people politically would hear that and go, oh, court packing. And be done.  

Sarah [00:16:37] But they've suggested so many other things.  

Beth [00:16:39] They have.  

Sarah [00:16:40] You know, it's not just court packing. There's like so many interests. Listen, you know my favorite one is just they don't get clerks anymore. You got to do it yourself. Reference. I really think that would get us there so quickly.  

Beth [00:16:54] Yeah. In terms where it's guaranteed that every president will have so many nominations and there's more predictability and pattern to it. I mean, I think there are a lot of good ideas floating around out there. Okay. So we agree that the leak matters, but not as a crime by one person who is attempting to sway this one way or the other. And by the way, I've read a lot of this theories. They all seem plausible to me.  

Sarah [00:17:18] Yeah, I'm very persuaded by both. It was trying to persuade justices not to vote for it and that it was locking them down.  I read both lines and I'm like, oh no, I think both are right, but can they both be right?  

Beth [00:17:28] Now, I will say, I agree that if one of the justices did this, I think that is an impeachable issue. I do think that this was a betrayal of the court and its processes and that it wasn't okay. So let me be clear about that. That is not the most significant piece as a citizen for me to spend my time considering. So practical impact of the decision is that where you want to go next maybe. Like, if this is the decision, then what happens?  

Sarah [00:18:02] Yeah, I think it's just really important to not think we're going to go back to the 1970s. That does not mean that I don't think women's lives -- I mean, I said this on our morning news brief that we shared with everyone. People will die because of this.  I don't know how to say it any more clearly. And I can't predict the future. But I can tell you with 100% certainty that will happen. I've worked in a clinic. That will happen. Women go to enormous dangerous lengths when they feel cornered, trapped by a pregnancy.  

Beth [00:18:44] And men will kill women.   

Sarah [00:18:47] Yes. Like, the number one cause of death for pregnant women is murder. Just look it up. That's just the statistic. So that is the reality. And there are circumstances that have changed. I think the presence of mifepristone and medical abortion, I think that's just going to be another legal challenge. I think it's going to be a hot mess. But you can get that illegally whenever you want.  But you should be under a doctor's care with that medication. And that's why it's dangerous.  

Beth [00:19:16] It's scary because I worry that as that becomes more prevalent, so will lacing that with dangerous substances. I mean, there's a reason that you need to be under a doctor's care and get it from a reputable source.  

Sarah [00:19:29] Right. I read a lot of articles about this. And I thought one of the best quotes was a post Roe. "United States isn't one in which abortion isn't legal at all. It's one in which there's tremendous inequality in abortion access." Now, the problem with that quote is there is also already tremendous inequality in abortion access. Already true.  I think that's it. Right. This is like the COVID of reproductive rights. Like, if this happens, it's just going to accelerate all the trends. There will be more medical abortion. There will be more illegal medical abortion. There will be more inequality in access. There will be more access in places that already have access. Like, it's just going to be like a fire, like it's just an accelerant.  And I think the political reality of that will make it even more unavoidable, right? Because you're going to start getting stories. I mean, you already have some. I think there's a woman in Texas that has been charged. And I think it's just going to push it all further, faster and more to the front of the public consciousness.  

Beth [00:20:34] Well, and where you have people giving birth who would have chosen an abortion, were it available. And people who don't go to those lengths to terminate the pregnancy but give birth. And maybe even at some point in their life feel happy that that's the outcome, that they had the birth. You are going to have more wealth inequality. If I were trying to design something that would exacerbate income inequality in the United States, that would deepen the divides that already exist about gender, about race, about wealth inequality, about education, just our values, I couldn't design something more effective than the Supreme Court overturning Roe versus Wade. It feels like COVID to me. I thought all the time, if I were really trying to bring the United States to its knees, I could not have created a more effective weapon than this virus. And layering this on top. Let me just put all my cards on the table. From a legal perspective, I think Roe versus Wade was wrongly decided. And I think we got a lot of bad Supreme Court lore around Roe versus Wade.  

Sarah [00:22:03] Now, wait, I think you should say more about that. Because I think people are going to say wrongly decided and they're going to think you mean it should have remained illegal. But the way they decided it, I think, sort of speaking to that is important.  

Beth [00:22:16] I think that choosing to read a right to privacy that encompasses the right to an abortion into the 14th Amendment was, as Justice Alito discusses, just legislating from the bench. I think it was.  And courts have firmly rejected this, but it would make a lot more sense to me to analyze this under the equal protection clause and to say here is a procedure that only affects women. And we are discriminating against women by intruding on this procedure in this way. So I think it was  poorly decided. I think all of the attempts by courts to carve out what viability means, to carve out limitations around this right have been badly done. I think it probably would have been better for us to have federal legislation around this or state legislation around it. And this is a shift in my personal understanding of things, I don't think it makes a lot of sense for your rights to vary by state around something this fundamental. So I think ideally the United States Congress would have decided this.  

[00:23:35] At the same time, and this is not just because of how I feel about precedent, because I think it's true that the precedent only means what we all want it to mean situation. So I'm not talking about this from legal analysis now. As much as pragmatically, I also think the Affordable Care Act exceeded Congress's constitutional authority. And if I had been in Congress in, what was it, 2017 when Republicans were trying to repeal it, I would have voted against that. Because a thread of the law that makes the most sense to me is this idea of detrimental reliance. That a thing happens and everybody relies on it. And so you can't just change the thing after everyone has relied on it. And that's how I feel about Roe versus Wade. I could critique that opinion all day. But we have very detrimentally relied on it for so long in this country that I think to decide, you know what, that was a mistake. We're going to change it. We're just going to reverse it now and let the chips fall.  

[00:24:40] And Alito says several times that's how they feel about it. He acknowledges we don't doubt that there will be a lot of fallout, but that's not really our business. That's gross and that's not okay. And that's why I was so proud when Congress didn't repeal the Affordable Care Act, because there were people who voted to keep the Affordable Care Act in place, even though they opposed it the first time because they understood this. We did it and we've built things around it and we've created expectations around it. And you cannot just carelessly come in and flip a switch and let the chips fall. That's not how we responsibly govern. There's no ethic of care around that. So that's how I feel. I think they got it wrong the first time. I think there were much better ways to do it. But we don't just get to rewrite history this way. I think it's so irresponsible.  

Sarah [00:25:31] Well, I mean, that's why we have precedent and theory.  

Beth [00:25:36] You just don't use it that way.  

Sarah [00:25:38] Well, I guess my struggle with codifying abortion is what's to just stop them from the next Republican majority to rolling in and repealing it? Like, it's hard to repeal laws, but it ain't impossible. Especially if it's politically popular with your base. And then what do we do then? We're back in the same position. They codify it, they roll it back. Like, they chip away, they chip away. They get back, they come and do it again. Like, there's no stability there. That's what I mean. If I was waving my magic wand, we passed the ERA, we'd have some assurances within the Constitution itself. And then we're not battling it out every cycle.  

Beth [00:26:17] Even that is is tough, though, right? Because, theoretically, we can change the Constitution and we can change our readings of the Constitution through the Supreme Court. A seismic shift in my thinking over the past few years, is just realizing that in a free society everything is always on the table to some extent, and that we might be better off if we treat it that way. I think it is that desperation for stability, which I am like the most guilty of. That desperation for stability has has resulted in a lot of complacency and a lot of neglect. And specifically around this issue. I was listening to an abortion activist on the podcast this morning and she was saying, we need to approach this like our opponents do. Democrats need to be single issue voters around abortion because that's what Republicans have done and it's worked. And I hear that and everything in my body hates it. There's so much about that that I hate. And I also don't have a great argument if this is the playing field. It is true. I know lots of single issue voters on abortion from a pro-life perspective, and I worry about a free society that just becomes a battle of this versus that to the death. And then what? But I also recognize that everything is always on the table, even if it's in the Constitution, even if we have a Supreme Court decision, even if it's codified. It's always on the table. And that's part of the price of democracy.  

Sarah [00:27:42] I don't I have a problem with single issue voting. I don't have to debate which one. I think it's always problematic. So that would be my beef with that statement. And I don't have to prove my devotion to the cause. I worked at Planned Parenthood, so I feel a lot of like fluidity around it. Like, I don't have to prove how much I care about this to you. I actually feel on the politics of it like that's where we're going to see some real upending in a way that I don't even know we'll see as much around the actual physical impact in states. Again, it was always dang near impossible to get an abortion in Mississippi. Now it's going to be completely impossible to get an abortion in Mississippi, although there were people still -- that one clinic out there dedicating themselves. But, politically, when you've been using this as that fuel for that single issue for decades, now we're talking about different ground. Now we're actually walking in a new direction. And I don't really know what that means. I honestly don't.  

[00:28:46] I don't anticipate a day ever where the Democratic Party is filled by a single issue. The fundamental structure and chemistry of the Democratic Party to me is so different from the Republican Party when it comes to stuff like this that I don't see that in our future. But that doesn't mean it's not important to people. But like you said in our morning news room, I'm almost more interested in how this upends the political structure of the pro-life movement. What are you guys going to do now? Like, you did it. What are you going to do now? I'll never forget one time watching a documentary and it was pro-life Mississippi. And it was this woman who was the head of pro-life Mississippi. And she said we're reaching that day when we'll see an end to abortion. And I thought, how clueless do you have to be to think that is available to you? Abortion has existed since the beginning of human history, and it will exist until the end of human history. And I don't know a lot of things for sure, but I know that for sure. And so, like, I don't know. Like, will they just pivot? And they'll pivot to medical abortion and states that are provided and are they really just going to, in the March of Folly, try to pursue this imagined scenario when no one ever has an abortion? Maybe. Maybe that's just what will happen. I don't know.  

Beth [00:30:04] I mean, I think the pivot has already started. I think it's the pharmaceutical side. I think it's the travel side. I'm really concerned about what United States of America looks like if a state puts a law on its books that our Supreme Court says is constitutional that criminalizes receiving an out-of-state abortion. What does that mean? Where are we as a country? Are we a country? is that going to happen?  

Sarah [00:30:26] Not united.  

Beth [00:30:28] No. I think the pivot to, you know, in word here, but really focusing on gender roles and gender identity, I don't blame anyone in the LGBTQ community who are saying like they're coming for us next. Because I think that the trail is there and that it makes a lot of sense. And we do have a lot built on that idea out of an implied right of privacy. And, listen, I think we have an implied right of privacy. I do believe we have that.  

Sarah [00:30:59] That's what I was going to say. That is us. That is everybody. If you think you live your life in America in 2022, and are  in some way or someplace, resting on a right to privacy, you've lost it.  And we're not great at it. There are lots of places where privacy is being violated, but there are lots of places you're standing on that.  And you should be concerned if it's at risk.  

Beth [00:31:18] I think we undoubtedly have that. And that, again, a sense of complacency has prevented us from doing a better job stating that more explicitly and updating it. When I read Alito's opinion, which spends pages and pages talking about quickening and the history of how we've understood pregnancy and how pregnancy was understood at the time the Constitution was written, I thought, what does Justice Alito believe the Constitution has to say about artificial intelligence, about data privacy, about the rights that we have vis-a-vis tech companies using our images, about genetic editing? I mean, there's so much that the Constitution at the time of its writing could not anticipate. Does he believe we have no rights around those things until we enumerate them through some kind of constitutional amendment process? We must continue to think about what we want America to mean in a new landscape. And if your understanding is that we have only contemplated and therefore we only recognize the rights granted at the time of the founding, then we're lost. That's not going to work.  

Sarah [00:32:34] And my sort of most despondent moment, I just have to remind myself that this has fundamentally shifted things, not fundamentally changed every single thing. Like I said, I think this will just accelerate a lot of trends we were already experiencing. But this is a new frontier if this decision comes down the way it has. And that's not always bad. A new frontier offers possibility. And I don't want to be toxic positivity over here, overly optimistic. I think I've made some statements throughout this conversation that really clearly establishes I do not feel that way. But this was and has always been precarious. And I don't think that we should assume that there could be a future opened up by maybe the overturning of Roe v Wade that gets us to a place where, again, we haven't solved it, we're not static, but that there is less precarity for women. I don't think that's going to be next year or five years or ten years from now, but it's definitely always my goal.  I've sort of existed in this space for too long to think we're going to fix it. And so I think it's always that analogy of like, we're just trying to turn the ship. And they're not turning the ship a couple of degrees. They're turning it a whole 180. And so it's going to upend a lot of things. And chaos is an opportunity for change. So that's what I'm just trying to to keep center of mind.  

Beth [00:34:14] What I really appreciate about that, Sarah, is that I think implicit in what you just said is this idea of if this is hurting for you, which it is for so many people. And, listen, so many people, one in four women have had an abortion.  And think about the men on the other side of that equation. You're not in a place in public without running into someone who is deeply, personally affected. You don't go to Kroger without browsing next to someone who has had an abortion. So it is already here among us all the time. We've just kept it secret, which has been really harmful as well. So I think what you're saying is if you are hurting because of this, if you are wrestling with that sense of like, oh, my God, my daughter is not going to have this option that's been available to me. How can that be? Can you make room for the possibility of something that is more solid in the future. Of something coming from this that creates more rights?  

[00:35:25] And I hope that if you are a person who has advocated for this for so long and who is celebrating that idea of fewer abortions in America, which  I don't think that's going to be the reality. But if that's your headspace, I hope that you two can make room for this is not going to be a utopia and there is going to be fallout from this that has not been anticipated. And there are going to be needs created by this. That my energy is going to be useful too if I am serious about a world where we have more happy families like I envisioned when I tell people about this issue. So I hope everybody can make a little bit of room around what we're feeling for other possibilities in time. It's okay to have reactions and days where you can't find that space. But that is my goal, to keep finding more room for more around this, because I don't want to stay stuck in I'm pro-life and you're pro-choice and we just have to agree to disagree. That's off the table. Let's just not -- we can't be there anymore.  

Sarah [00:36:30] Well, there's a perfect example in Texas. I read an article on a site where several of the abortion clinics in Texas were saying women who might not have had an abortion feel rushed into the decision due to this law. And so I think that's often just a scenario that is not even mentioned that  pro life legislative changes because we're all going to be debating those a lot. Pro life legislative changes often can increase abortions in individual decision making. When you look at the Guttmacher Institute statistics and they're like they've decreased. I mean, the statistic does not contain the complexity as some people might have had one when they didn't want one. Because they felt forced into someone else's timeline. So that is what's happening here that we all want to sum up neatly with a bow or imagined scenario when, again, if it's wanted for women. Imagine the complexity that it contains.  

Beth [00:37:45] How much time do you need to make the most consequential decision of your life?  

Sarah [00:37:49] Right. As if there's one answer to that question.  

Beth [00:37:54] When we think about the needs that are created around supporting mothers, families in the United States, we are going to bring a guest in who has created the Marshall Plan For Moms, to speak to those needs. And we hope you enjoy this conversation with Reshma Saujani. We are so thrilled to have Reshma Saujani with us. You have an extensive resume. Like us, former lawyer. You're an activist, founder of Girls Who Code and the Marshall Plan For Moms. We are going to spend some time on today. The author of Pay Up, The Future of Women and Work and Why It's Different Than You Think. And I just want to start by asking you, with all this experience that you have, lawyer, founder, entrepreneur, social activist, former candidate for office, you have clearly developed a perspective on motherhood and work. I would love to hear about the Marshall Plan For Moms and how your life experiences informed this area of focus for you.  

Reshma Saujani [00:39:06] Yeah. Well, I started the pandemic in 2020 with girls going to the Super Bowl ad. I was going to teach more girls than I ever taught. I was having my second son and I was going to take my leave, spend some time with my family, do date and outs with my husband, and then the pandemic hit. And I found myself having to take care of a three week old, homeschool a kindergartner, and save my nonprofit from being shut down. And most of the women on my leadership team were all working moms, and we were barely making it. And then when schools closed that September, that was it. Right. Because I think for two reasons. One, that a decision like that could be made that so greatly affected our lives and we were not even consulted. And second, seeing the millions and millions of women that were pushed out of the workforce. When we started the pandemic, 51 percent of the labor force was female. We were flying our feminist flags high. And then this pandemic hit. And we had to supplement essentially our paid labor for unpaid labor. And it was the the most formidable hit to women's economic participation that we've seen in this country in a long time.  

Sarah [00:40:18] What I really appreciate is that it doesn't seem to be only informed by your life experience that the Marshall Plan for Moms tries to really speak to a broad array, which from low income moms that I love the piece of the Marshall Plan that speaks to retraining.  

Reshma Saujani [00:40:37] Yup.  

Sarah [00:40:37] But the pieces that are universal up and down the income ladder, like paid leave and the policy proposals, but also the sense of mom guilt.  

Reshma Saujani [00:40:49] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:40:50] That is just crushing women with lots of resources and with no resources.  

Reshma Saujani [00:40:55] I mean, that's the thing, right? That's why I see this opportunity. Essentially, over 40 million of us are having collectively a common experience to different degrees. You know, my mother was a political refugee. And I think about her in this moment. And back then when I was growing up, she couldn't afford $50 a week for childcare. And so my sister and I were latchkey kids. And the unconscionable choices that so many women have to make today, and we talk about in my book, a woman who was arrested and she works at a pizza parlor and she left her kids at home alone because she didn't have a choice and she was arrested for neglect. So what women need in this country in many ways is very basic, and it's what other women have in other countries. One, it's we need paid leave. Vast majority of women go back to work ten days after having a baby. That's shameful.  

[00:41:46] We need affordable childcare. Most Americans pay more for their childcare than they pay for their mortgage. It is the largest cost center for families. It is the driver and the decision maker of economic decisions in a household. And it doesn't have to be that way, meaning that we can live in a society where the government or the private sector provides some support because it is a must have in order to work. We have so many women whose jobs were automated because the pandemic lost them and they're the sole breadwinner in their families. Three out of 10 American families are run by a single mom. So what's the plan to retrain all of them? And I think we have to really think about school in a different way, because we learned that schools closed. Schools and safety of schools being open is a critical thing for many, many, many, many, families.  

Sarah [00:42:35] Yes.  

Reshma Saujani [00:42:36] So I think that this pandemic expose was already there. But the reality is, far too many of us have been teetering, especially low income women, especially working class women, especially women of color, they have to work. Period. And they got to put food on the table. And as a nation, we need their work. It's critical to this country's functioning. And so what are we going to do to support them?  

Beth [00:43:05] You mentioned Covid and its effects on everyone. I think it's been interesting because in some ways Covid has been so disruptive. And I think we have had a real clarity about here are challenges in our society that we can all see and that are affecting us every day. And at the same time, because of that disruption and because of just the stress of the whole thing, there's a real sense of scarcity at work right now. So I'm wondering, as you're out there talking about this, what's the mood? How are these ideas being received?  

Reshma Saujani [00:43:34] Well, I think people are like, hell, yeah, but they're exhausted. You know, 51 percent of moms are anxious and depressed. We actually have an epidemic, a mental health epidemic of moms. And here's the moms on break. When's the last time before the pandemic you were just like -- when we start a call, normally people would be like, how are you? I'm like, I'm great. Even though I slept 2 hours because I'm like feeding my baby. Now we've kind of gotten used to be like, how are you doing? I'm exhausted. But now it's like every mom I know, every working mom I know, is just done and helpless and hopeless. And that's how I think people feel right now, is just utterly exhausted. Because not only have we been burning it at two ends and haven't gotten a break because all of that work, the homeschooling, the caretaking, the grocery shopping, the food buying, just the worry. The worry about this is or another variant, what am I going to do? Where's the mask?  All of that sits with us.  

[00:44:40] And so we haven't gotten a second to do any self-care and to just take a beat and to sleep. So I think that people are really exhausted. I think they know what I'm saying is gospel. Is true. Now, part of it, though, I think sometimes women are like, is that a fantasy? Like, we're so removed that we could live in a society that we could actually get help. Even though what I'm telling you is not a fantasy. They do that in France, Canada, U.K.,  even in India now. They're providing parental income when you have a child and support. But here it still feels like this is my life. This is the way it is if you choose to be a mom. Which is why so many women are choosing not to be moms. Because they look at us like, yeah, no, thank you.  And that's devastating, right? Because I say to young adults, you choose. Don't let them take your choice away from you.  

Sarah [00:45:42] Well, what's feels so true to me and what I've really tried to articulate. And I think campaigns like the Marshall Plan for Moms, I love your really, really, great Ad. That sort of like a pharmaceutical ad about mom guilt is so great. We'll put the link in the show notes. Because what I've really tried to articulate in my conversations when we get in this hopeless spiral of child care and no choices and giving up work is to say often in my individual conversations, it is not like this everywhere. We are doing this to ourselves. Like, it is not your failing. It is not where you live. It is not the choices you made. Women all over the world do not face this ridiculous individual calculus where it's like you decide to have kids and it's like you're on your own. Hope you can slap something together.  

Reshma Saujani [00:46:32] Good luck.  

Sarah [00:46:32] Best of luck to you. And I wonder, though, how you deal with -- I think there's two real complicating factors and the fact that our system sucks and we need real policy changes, which is, one, parenthood for the most part is a temporary gig that like hands on littles, finding childcare, dealing with illness because you have to be the one out. Like, that for the most part it's a temporary situation. So I think there's this drive to just like get through it. I'm just going to get through this and then I don't have to worry about it more. And I think that exhaustion and hopelessness, because exhausted hopelessness is not a great place to create change. So when we're in this position and there's a sense of like just survive it, how do you motivate people to pay attention and to get involved and to look at these policy changes that might come too late for them but could affect other women and other families?  

Reshma Saujani [00:47:34] Yeah, I think we have to talk about it in terms of the entire package because I think it's little ones today and it's your parents tomorrow.  And that's where a lot of people are now talking about. It's like I need time off of work because I to go take care of my father because he has Parkinson's.  

Sarah [00:47:51] I know it's not alliterative, but it's like Marshall Plan for Caregivers.  

Reshma Saujani [00:47:53] Yeah, but it's the whole point of the matter. I think actually people are more potentially sympathetic to parents 0 to 10 than they are. But I think we need to build that value system and part of it is just really about giving women control over their schedules. That's it. That's all we're talking about, right? We're talking about just give me control. Like, trust me to be an adult and to do my job and to tell you why I got to go because I got to go take my kid -- and not judge me. And not penalized me or not take something away from me because of that. So that I think is just we have to connect it to a larger -- we got to bring childless women and men in on this. We got to bring men. And it's funny, people always say to me, well, it's really hard, how do you convince the men. And I'm like, the men are with me. This is not about the men. Meaning like especially in the pandemic, I think men started taking more time caring for their kids, started taking their kids to school, started basically taking them outside. They're like, I like this. I don't want to commute 2 hours a day to see my kid for 10 minutes.  

Sarah [00:49:04] Yes.  

Reshma Saujani [00:49:04] And so I don't think this is just. And so I think we had to talk about it in a how do we want to live.  

Beth [00:49:11]  As you say that, I would love to hear how you settled on the name the Marshall Plan for Moms.  

Reshma Saujani [00:49:17] Well, I'm a history nerd. So it felt like World War Two bombed out cities and we needed to literally rebuild this from the ground up. Like, we needed to just rethink this. And I actually didn't think it would catch on. I thought it would just be like me. It's like what I named Girls Who Code. It caught on it. This is the same. It was shocking to me.  

Sarah [00:49:41] But you just get it immediately. You hear it and you're like, yeah, okay.  

Reshma Saujani [00:49:44] Yes. Shockingly, the controversial thing in the beginning was moms. People were like, why moms? What about the dads?  And I was like, it's almost like it's wild how in some circles, this identity is not something you want to grab on to. But, for me, I have a very emotional connection to being a mom. That's all I ever wanted to be. It's my favorite title. It's the thing that's most important to me. It's thing I fought for. And similar to Girls Who Code, people say, "What about all the kids?" Well, no, no, no, no. The gender gap in tech is about a gender gap in tech. Similar here. Two thirds of caretaking work are done by moms. So it's not about the caretaking and this is not about the gender, but it's about the motherhood. And it goes back to your point about like,  why is motherhood so controversial? Why do we feel like we don't want to give us the nice things?  

[00:50:37] Why is it so hard for us to convince people that we should not go back to work ten days after having a baby? I mean. So I think really getting deep into that. And I get to a lot of arguments weekly. And not even people who you think you would argue with. It's not with men, actually. It's with sometimes childless women, sometimes with moms who've already had kids that are older now. And so we got to resolve these feelings amongst us. I mean, go on an airline and have a screaming child and the looks you get. Like, the fact that most of the time we are apologizing for our motherhood. Sorry, my kid didn't mean to make a mess. Sorry my kid just interrupted me. Sorry I had to leave this meeting. Because we don't feel like we get grace.  

Sarah [00:51:31] Right. Well, it's the scarcity too. It's the scarcity of the situation. Everybody feels that economic precarity and that scarcity. And so everybody is fighting for their tiny little piece of the pie.  

Beth [00:51:41] Can I take that airline example and blow it out a little bit? Because I think about that all the time when I travel. I have this instinct. I want to go help. My kids are older now. I've been through the screaming on an airplane phase. I feel like I kind of know what to do in that situation, you know. And it always feels wrong to help. Like, an offer of help would be a criticism because we have such a self-sacrificial, individualistic ethos around parenting. And I wonder whether those individual examples might shift in the wake of policy that shifts in this area.  

Reshma Saujani [00:52:19] I love you. So I wrote a whole failure Friday about this because I was that person. Because oftentimes, I'll travel with the kids and take them to go see my parents in Chicago. So it's me, the two year old baby, the seven year old, 50 bags and just exhaustion. And normally it's somebody will come up in the back and say, "Can I put that diaper bag up there on there for you in the overhead?" I'm like, "No I got it." Lately, I'm like, "Yes, please. Thank you." And it has felt so liberating and it's felt very political. Like, yes, you should be asking moms everywhere if they need help or like what you can do. Like, your knee jerk reaction should not be to have attitude because a mom's taking maternity leave and you got to do some of her work. You should be like, great because one day that might be you in a different form. So I think you're right. I think we as moms, our form of activism is to say, "Yes, please. Thank you." 

Sarah [00:53:22]  Well, as we move into how to generate support and how to think of this activism, let me share this story. On a flight from Utah back to my home with my three kids and my husband, there was a baby who was displaced. The baby did not want to be on the plane. The baby had not wanted to be on the plane a lot of the plane ride. And as the the parents were standing up, there was like this wave of -- because it was the unloading that the baby was really not here for. And about to 2 to 3 rows in front of them, there was just this collective sense of everybody stay seated and let them go first. And we did. We were like, "Hey, we're good." You go. And they were like, "You sure?" We're like, "Yes, yeah, go. You need it. We've been where you've been."  

Reshma Saujani [00:54:07] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:54:07] And there was just this collective sense of like, "Hey, we got you, go. We can wait. You go ahead." And I thought, oh, man, if I could just bottle this and spread it out around the country.  

Reshma Saujani [00:54:17] It's true. And it's funny. I mean, I wonder. I don't know if you all have a thought on this, like, was it worse before the pandemic or is it better now? Sometimes it feels worse now.  

Sarah [00:54:26] It just depends. When I travel, like I'm always waiting for that moment you see all over TikTok where somebody loses it. But, truly, I witness a lot more kindness. People going out of their ways to thank the flight attendants, going out of their ways to help each other and stay calm. It's just when people explode, it is so much more intense than it used to be. So when someone is unkind, it is accelerated. Although I think there is a greater blanket of helpfulness and kindness. It's just that those explosions are so intense that it obliterates any other experience or memory.  

Reshma Saujani [00:55:01] You're right. I think that's right. That's why I tell moms right now with Pay Up, my book, is you got to leverage. There's millions of open jobs right now. People have kind of seen our mess.  

Sarah [00:55:15] Two jobs for every worker.  

Reshma Saujani [00:55:15] Yeah, and that's right. And so it's a seller's market. S now is the time to be like, yes, I would love this opportunity. What's your childcare benefits? What's your paid leave program? Hey, I might need Thursdays and Fridays to be able to work remotely. So ask for what you want. It's interesting, young women have been doing this. Childless women have been doing this. And that's why in 22 states, their salaries have surpassed men for the first time. So it's showing you that people who have been not actually equitably treated in the workforce, and who are using this moment to find leverage, it's happening for them.  

Sarah [00:55:52] So how do we go beyond those individual actions? How do we generate support for the Marshall Plan of Moms? How do we come together and get some of this systemic policy change?  

Reshma Saujani [00:56:01] Well, I think the first thing is everyone listening right now, I want you to advocate for one thing for yourself and see the impact of that on your life, and think about what you can do in your workforce.  

Sarah [00:56:12] What a beautiful Mother's Day gift.  

Reshma Saujani [00:56:14] Yeah, advocate for one thing and let's have a radically different conversation. One of the things I talk about in the book is I feel like I was tricked into thinking that like I was the problem. That only if I leaned in harder or if I lost my way at the top or color coded my calendar, find a mentor, then I too could get to equality. And the reality is, we need to stop trying to fix the woman and fix the structure. And the structure is broken. So that's the second piece. We as moms are really good at advocating for our kids. When schools were closed, we were out there, right? For gun reform, climate change, were out there, but we don't fight for ourselves. And, really, when you think about what are the structural changes to make yourself be able to have a kid and a job, it is really these five. It's closing the motherhood penalty, getting subsidized childcare, getting paid leave, fighting for flexibility and focusing on our mental health and retraining if we need it.  

[00:57:09] So my point is, we know what we need. And we know what the generations after us need, what our daughters need, our nieces need, our neighbors need. And so let's go fight for that. And I know people are exhausted. So take a beat. Give yourself grace. But then start rallying with your coworkers to say, what are our paid leave policies here at our workplace? Hey, you let me freeze my eggs, maybe you should be paying for my childcare, you know. So in the book, my book Pay Up, really lays it out. It's like here's what you should do for your employer. Here's what you should do for an employee. And so we got to start building that muscle and practicing how to do. And I know this podcast is about politics. I think part of when you start understanding how to advocate for yourself and your workplace, then you start advocating for yourself in the political arena.  

Sarah [00:58:02] Yeah. So it's a political act. Absolutely.  

Reshma Saujani [00:58:05] It's a political act, but it's one that's going to change your life quicker.  

Beth [00:58:10] Well, I agree with Sarah. What a perfect gift for Mother's Day to start advocating for yourself and all of those spheres. We thank you so much for the work that you're doing and for spending some time with us.  

Reshma Saujani [00:58:19] Thank you. Thank you all. Keep fighting. I appreciate everything that you're doing to lift up women and women's voices. So thank you so much.  

Beth [00:58:35] Thank you so much for Reshma for sharing your vision with us. Sarah, because we contain multitudes. Outside of politics, we're just going to go in a new direction here. At the same time as we were learning about the Supreme Court's leak, we were also learning about Kim Kardashian wearing Marilyn Monroe's dress, the actual dress, not a tribute to the dress, but the dress that she sang to President Kennedy in to the Met gala. And you have some thoughts about this.  

Sarah [00:59:04] I thought it was an [Inaudible].  I just was perusing the Met red carpet.  It's in a new direction. I do not enjoy. I kind of appreciate it when it was like a niche thing only fashion people knew about. And now it's just like one more red carpet. All these events they're feeling a little gross these days. And so a lot of my friends and I were just like, what's happening? And then, of course, the decision is leaked and everybody's like into vampire vibes here. Like, what are we doing? What's going on? Also, who chose Gilded Glamor? I guess it was Blake Lively. And what a terrible choice. What a terrible, terrible, choice for right now. Even if it wasn't precisely the Gilded Age, like, come on. Really, that's gilded. Gilded. Do you understand what gilded means? That underneath the gold is not gold. Like it's fine. It's bad. But then I thought her dress was just an homage. And then when I heard it was the actual dress, I was like, okay, well now this is the fullest manifestation of what has gone wrong here. That she was just rich and famous enough to wear a priceless piece of history and damage it. Under any scenario, she's damaged it. It has been stressed by being put on, by the oils on her body, by the fittings. Like she didn't alter it, but who cares? But also, like, why does Ripley's Believe It or Not have It? Just because they paid the most? Like, that should be in the Smithsonian. I hope the controversy is extensive enough they're like, sorry, guys, we'll just give to the Smithsonian. Because what a disaster. What a disaster.  

Beth [01:00:40] And then you add to the what do we want to do with historic artifacts, the fact that she publicly went on this crash diet to make the dress fit. That is not a message that the world needs right now. I don't understand. I keep thinking we're sort of like done with that thing, or at least we've recognized the boundaries around the thing. And then someone just comes in and says, "No, I reject all of that. I'm going to do my own thing anyway."  And with body issues, I'm really surprised that she shared that she worked really hard to lose a huge amount of weight in a very short time to wear this dress.  

Sarah [01:01:25] I mean, she does own a shapewear company, you know what I mean?  

Beth [01:01:28] Yeah. I don't find shapewear as offensive as the damage to your body.  

Sarah [01:01:32] I mean, I wear shapewear. I'm just saying. 

Beth [01:01:35] I don't know. It just makes me sad to have that message out there that that's cool to just stress your body in that way to fit into a dress. It makes me really sad.  

Sarah [01:01:48] I mean, if I'm giving grace, I bet she saw it as like -- I mean, because it is, it's a performance. She wasn't just going to a party. The Met gala is a performance and she is a public figure. And this was a part of her performance, you know, in the same way it does not bother me when actors or actresses manipulate their bodies for roles. Because it's not just a party. It is different. I just don't know if we needed anymore because, I mean, the stated objective is to raise money. Well, everybody spent more on --  

Beth [01:02:18] Their performances. 

Sarah [01:02:21] Their performances than they raised for, you know. So it's just kind of silly. And I'm not mad. I don't want to do away with fashion. I love fashion. I think it's incredibly important because I love art and I think fashion is art. In the same way, I think that, we have the quilt show in my hometown and the quilts hanging in the wall do not keep you warm. They are art. So it's not that component of it. It's just the celebrity. It used to be more a performance of fashion and now it feels more like performance of celebrity, which we don't need. Like, we're good. We're good, right? We have enough of that.  

Beth [01:02:57] I feel the same way about the White House Correspondents Association dinner. It is a performance of celebrity, not of journalism. Everything. What is not a performance of celebrity right now. And I think we just need to dial that way, way, back because it's not serving us well.  

Sarah [01:03:14] It's a performance of a dated understanding of celebrity. I don't have a trouble with celebrity. I think celebrities are just our Greek myths. That's how we're working at our stuff. We're working out our views and our morality and our ethics and our values. And I have no beef with that. But some of these  it's more like big movies. When every celebrity had an Instagram that we knew everything they were doing all the time. I kind of want to be like, "Kimmy, listen, come over here with me. What were you what were you doing? What was the point?"  I kind of liked it when she was covered with black, you couldn't see her face. I thought that was kind of cool and I could get the position. But if you're going to do this performance of Marilyn in this dress, but also show us on your reality show, the fitting and the dieting and talk to us about how you crash dieted to get in the... Do you see what I'm saying? Like, we can't have it both ways. Like these events are based on an understanding of celebrity that was highly filtered. Not that they're not still filtered, but you know what I mean? Like, where they weren't on Instagram sharing their business and  going to the red table and on and on and on. So that to me is like where there's a mismatch here. I still think it's interesting. I still think there's interesting aspects of celebrity. And I also don't think it's going anywhere. It's just this particular jumped the shark, you know what I mean?  

Beth [01:04:38] It's hard to watch and it's hard to have them post Covid. It's hard to have them without layers and layers of discussion about what's going on. And you know what's really frustrating about this Kim Kardashian thing is like, I do wish her the best.  

Sarah [01:04:52] I got no beef with her.  

Beth [01:04:54] I especially hope that she and Pete Davidson are just what the other one need. I really, really, wish them all the best.  

Sarah [01:05:02] I spend all my time wishing good things for Pete Davidson. I am so hardcore. I just want him to be happy, is all I want in my life.  

Beth [01:05:09] I'm just especially sad about the crash diet part of this because she is so aware of the influence that her decisions about her body has. It might not be fair, but she has capitalized on it and she understands it very, very, well. And this is just not what the world needed, especially when I think everyone would have loved it if they had made a replica of the dress.  

Sarah [01:05:35] Yeah. Just a replica! Why is it that -- I'm not mad at her?  

Beth [01:05:38] It's a fun idea. Just do a replica of the dress.  

Sarah [01:05:41] I'm totally uninterested in beating up on Kim Kardashian. I think there is so much sexism when people make her a punching bag, so I don't want to do that. I'm not interested in that. I just think somebody should have told her no. I'm mad at that person. I'm at the person who said, "It's a cool idea, let's make it real quick." No. Because I think she's been through a lot. I'm still like real worried about her about that break in situation at Paris. I still think about that.  I'm not interested about beating up here. I think that's lazy because, boy, how unique could you be to beat up on a Kardashian publicly?  

Beth [01:06:12] Well, I'm sure that you all have lots of thoughts about Kim Kardashian. And we will look forward to hearing them along with your thoughts on everything else. You can always email us at Hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. We read every message. We take your feedback into our own thoughts and it makes us better. So we appreciate that. Please do leave us a review for Now What? How to move forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything) if you have read it and enjoyed it. Thank you again for all of your support. We'll be back in your ears on Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.  

[01:06:51] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [01:06:56] Maggie Patton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [01:07:02] Our show is listener-supported, special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [01:07:06] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ashley Edwards. Janice Elliot. Sara Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs.   

[01:07:27] The Kriebs. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli.   

Beth [01:07:40] Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited. Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  

Maggie PentonComment