What is Even Happening in the GOP?

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• Factions of the Republican Party

• What does it mean to be a Republican Today?

• Outside Politics: What are we watching right now?
  
  

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EPISODE RESOURCES

UPCOMING EXCITING PROJECTS AT PANTSUIT POLITICS

• Sarah and Beth were featured as GMA3’s podcast of the month

• Get tickets to our live show in Waco, Texas on April 30th with Clint Harp!

• Pre-Order our new book Now What?

• Join the launch team for Now What?

DIFFERENT TAKES ON THE CURRENT REPUBLICAN PARTY

• ICYMI: “What’s happening at the pumpkin patch?” (with Chad Silvers, Pantsuit Politics 4/9/2022)

• 11 Point Plan to Rescue America (Rick Scott via Politico)

• Rick Scott pushes own GOP agenda as McConnell holds off (Politico)

• Will Hurd 2024: The Revenge of the Normal Republicans (The Atlantic)

TRANSCRIPT

Beth [00:00:00] Well, Chad, thanks for talking about Republicans with me. So as we conclude this conversation, I would love to know your general vibe about the party here in April of 2022. 

Chad [00:00:13] My vibe about the party is not great right now. I still can't say that I'm fully in support of everything that is happening in all parts of the party. I'm just hopeful for the future. 

Sarah [00:00:34] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:36] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:37]  Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:00:53] Hello, and thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics, we really appreciate you choosing to spend time with us and hope that our different approach to the news will be refreshing to you. Sarah is still enjoying spring break with her family. So, today, we're celebrating the second annual Pantsuit Politics Spouses Edition. My husband, Chad, is here with me. And I am excited for us to flesh out a topic that comes up in tiny bits in our house, which is, what does it mean to be a Republican in 2022? So we're going to spend some time talking about what we see as different factions within the GOP and how the two of us, who are formerly reliably Republican voters, how we're thinking about those factions and where the party is going. Outside of politics, we're going to talk about what we're watching together. Chad, I'm so glad you're here. 

Chad [00:01:39] Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a double holiday that we're recording today. It's Major League Baseball opening day and the first day of the Masters.  

Beth [00:01:48] Perfect. I feel really equipped to celebrate the first of those and not the second. 

Chad [00:01:52] What? It's the Masters. It's a tradition like none other. 

Beth [00:01:55] I was with a friend yesterday who was telling me about -- we were talking about how golf and baseball both feel like legitimate excuses to get out of anything. Like, if someone's at a baseball game or playing golf, everybody sort of goes. We’re like, let's not bother them. And he was telling me this story about a call where everyone was really frustrated that somebody wasn't present and they were starting to yell about, let's get this person on the phone. And someone said, "Actually, he's at the Masters right now." And suddenly it was fine. It was totally fine. It was perfectly capable of being worked out without him. 

Chad [00:02:26] Oh, I'd love to have that excuse for something. 

Beth [00:02:27] Yes. 

Chad [00:02:28] And wouldn't this be a great week to have a golf sponsor on the show. Why is there not a golf sponsor on the show? 

Beth [00:02:34] We'll get right on that. Before we get started, just a reminder that our book, Now What? How to move forward when we're divided about basically everything, comes out on May 3rd. Chad makes many appearances in Now What, including me telling a very embarrassing story about how rude I was to him after we voted differently in an election. So, hopefully, that will be helpful to you. We would love for you to preorder it. It helps us so much. So you can do that using the link in the show notes or really anywhere that you like to buy books. Thank you to our launch team who has started reading the book and sharing about it on social media. Everybody surrounding us in this time when we're trying to put something out into the world that we hope will be helpful just feels really good and we really appreciate it. 

[00:03:24] Chad, for people who are new to the podcast and who didn't hear your last appearance, I thought we could give a little synopsis of where we are politically. So I'll start and you can think about what you want to say. I always voted for Republicans. I registered as a Republican when I was 18 and really up until Donald Trump became the Republican Party nominee, I was a reliable Republican voter in presidential elections. I had voted for Senate Democrats in state offices, and I was never a great, truly like red example of a Republican label. But I was pretty conservative, and I think over time, as the party has changed, I have also changed. I've probably moved to the left on a number of issues, especially as the issues that dominate the conversation change. 

[00:04:11] So now I am a registered Democrat because in Kentucky we have closed primaries. You have to be registered with a party to vote and I really want to vote in primaries. I think that's important. I feel like the Democratic label doesn't suit me perfectly, but it suits me better than the Republican one does at this moment in time. And as everything we're going to talk about today illustrates, sometimes I'm just not even sure what we're talking about and whether the way those labels are being applied have anything to do with actual laws that are going to be passed. So how would you describe if you gave a quick elevator speech like that about your own politics, what would you say, Chad? 

Chad [00:04:45] Definitely not prepared an elevator speech about it. I grew up in small town, Kentucky. I would say from the beginning, I've been more of a right leaning person especially from a fiscal standpoint. Socially, definitely more moderate. I don't like the labels of either side at this point, but I'm voting Republican in primaries right now. Sticking with that party designation again because we have to have one. But I'm definitely more to the middle on a lot of things and more -- I don't want to use Libertarian because I'm not full heartedly there. 

Beth [00:05:30] You don't think like driver's licenses infringe on your fundamental right. 

Chad [00:05:33] No, you need a driver's license, but I'm definitely more small government. Let things go. 

Beth [00:05:41] And I think that we have a lot of overlap. Some things between the two of us are a matter of degrees and the way that things are presented. And then there are definitely places where I am just left of Chad pretty significantly. So let's have a discussion then about what's happening with Republicans right now. I really wanted Chad to try to step back and be as fair and objective as possible, especially going into the midterms. With all of this history and polling that would suggest Republicans are in a very strong position headed into the midterms, I take in all of that analysis and polling, and I find myself thinking, What does that mean? If people are going to go support Republicans in the midterm elections, what actually does that support indicate other than I'm just kind of annoyed with people who are currently in power and want to try something different? 

[00:06:33] And maybe that's it. But I wanted to think a lot about what the Republican Party actually means at this point. So I came up with a couple of categories. Let's hear what you think about my categories. I think the first category is a group of people, and I would say this is like the ambitions center of the party. People who want to have an agenda that sounds a whole lot like what Donald Trump ran on, but maybe are ready to have Trump himself just be kind of off in the distance. Like he can be at Mar-a-Lago. He can fundraise for them. We can talk about him like he's the best, but let us take the reins. And I would put in that category people like Rick Scott, Ron DeSantis, J.D. Vance, Tucker Carlson. I think it's a pretty long list of people who pretty well subscribe to many of the ideas that he talked about in his campaign, but would like to be the centerpieces themselves. 

Chad [00:07:27] So these are the many mailers that we get to our house. 

Beth [00:07:31]  Yes. 

Chad [00:07:33] Yeah. This group, I would call more of a Trump adjacent group. I think it's more of a cocktails group too. 

Beth [00:07:39] I like that. 

Chad [00:07:40] A group wanting to ride that cocktail of Trump for short term gains. I think everybody here is looking very much in the short term of how can we capitalize on this, especially the media side of it. I mean, yes, Tucker Carlson is going like gangbusters right now because of the Trump movement. 

Beth [00:08:00] So do you think that these are true believers or purely ambition centered or does it even matter? 

Chad [00:08:08] I don't think it matters. And really, I don't think -- I don't know. You don't know the minds of these folks, but I think a lot of these people are in there for their own personal gain. And, again, a short term game. Not a long term plan at all. 

Beth [00:08:25] So then let's just keep moving through our categories, then we'll kind of flesh some of these out more. I think the second group I would call the Republican establishment types, in the words of these other groups that Mitch McConnell etc. are like, let's just not have an agenda. Let's stick with Democrats or the worst and we do a better job. And let's just try to keep the ship moving forward in a way that lets us get our judges confirmed and win as many elections as possible and have the majority and so we can have leadership on committees and keep our heads down in that way. What do you think about that classification? 

Chad [00:08:58] If you're putting McConnell in this group, it's definitely a group that's thinking more long term. I don't think I'd characterize it as the let's just stick it to the Democrats group. Again, McConnell's got a lot of history that you can look at. He is thinking long term, he is smarter  than everyone lets on or gives him credit for. He's thinking long term. And not just long term for him, for the entire party. Yes, the judge's confirmation, winning elections down the road, that's the game plan there with that group. 

Beth [00:09:34] What do you think it's for? This is the question I always get stuck on with McConnell. Amassing power long term, for what? 

Chad [00:09:44] It could be as cynical as for the sake of doing it. 

Beth [00:09:47] I think that's right. 

Chad [00:09:48] But with with him and this group, I think it's smart. They're doing a slow transition. You know, they're going to still keep some of the ideas and the populist thought from the recent administration, but they're going to slowly move people out. They don't want to cut everybody off cold turkey, but they are. They do have a vision going in a different direction. 

Beth [00:10:15] It reminds me of another person who I would put in the category of McConnell. Not someone I'm a fan of, not someone I admire at all. But in a business context, someone once told me that you turn a ship in Millimeters and I do think that that's kind of McConnell's approach. 

Chad [00:10:32] Yeah. You know he wants to turn the ship. You know for the past several years, he has bitten his tongue a whole bunch with what was going on. Again, the future of the party, that's what he's looking at. 

Beth [00:10:49] Okay, then I think the next category of people I would describe as just like burn it all down, and I'm trying to be as diplomatic and objective as I can be here, but when I listen to people like Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, people who are ready to fully embrace sort of QAnon conspiracy theory and and like Ron Johnson types, I think they just want a new order of things. And that feels a little different to me than the people who have that first category, that Trumpist agenda without Trump. Even though they definitely are leaning in a more illiberal direction, this category of people seemed to me to be even less inclined to talk about free markets or local governments or anything like that. It seems to me to just be like. We see ourselves as warriors in a battle of good vs evil and whatever the cost, we want to come out on top in that conflict.

Chad [00:11:55] Illeberal. I like that word. It's like an album cover or an album title. 

Beth [00:12:00] But you know what I mean. In the classical sense, illiberal like intolerant of dissent. 

Chad [00:12:05] Yeah. And we get a few mailers from  this group too. If they're interesting to watch, yeah, that I don't know. These are the real wingnuts. Sometimes I feel myself in a burn it all down since looking at both parties and how they operate. But, well, I don't know how we get away from these candidates because they are really pulling in a lot of enthusiasm from, you know,  not even 10 percent, the two percent at each end of the spectrum, but sometimes they're just the loudest voices in the room and they're the most interesting. I don't say that in a good way. They're the most interesting for news outlets to report on. So we're going to hear more of them, even though they're such a small, small, minority. 

Beth [00:12:58] It's a hard thing, and I feel some sympathy for the Biden administration on this point because you're right, this group feeds the beast of an industry that needs to have things to talk about all the time. And I recognize the irony of saying that as someone who has a political podcast. I always find that there's plenty to talk about, even leaving these folks out of the equation. But when you are doing 24 hour news, for profit, needing clicks, needing shares, needing viral moments, this group gets that and does it well in their way. It's terrible for our democracy and I think terrible for our relationships with each other as citizens, but it feeds the beast. I was thinking about how the Biden administration is not good at feeding that machine right now. You know, the press secretary, Jen Psaki, is competent and straightforward and doesn't produce anything that goes viral. You know what I mean? But people feel like the Biden administration is not communicating with us. And I don't think it's that they're not communicating, I think it's just that their communication is very dull compared to what media is used to putting in front of us. 

Chad [00:14:11] Yes, dull. Just information which, hey, that's good. We haven't had that for a while. Yeah, the fringes on both sides, I think, are just hard to to keep a lid on. Not that you want to keep a lid on them completely, but lower that volume a little bit. 

Beth [00:14:31] Yeah. People need to be heard of  all of all persuasions. But I think you're right, like just lowering the volume to the to the place where it is in line with their actual support. I got a message from a friend this morning saying that this group of people really hurts his soul, that this is the best America has, that we're sending these folks to Congress. And my response is so unsatisfying because I do think they are still a drastic minority, but it doesn't feel that way when they win elections to Congress. Even when you can say, well, it's because of the district and the way the districts drawn or whatever, like, still enough Americans are voting for them to send them to Congress. And that's tough. And then they get amplified constantly in media. So let's move on from them for a second and talk about the category of people who I have a lot of respect for, people who are trying to hang on as sort of traditional conservatives. And by traditional, I mean like of the mold of kind of the Reagan era, of the Bush era. So I would put Matt Romney and Liz Cheney in here. It's a really small category of people because so many of them have retired or aren't running again. What do you think about this group? 

Chad [00:15:43] If I was going to categorize myself, it would be a Republican from, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. Fiscal conservative. Strong on defense. I'm more of a social moderate, so that part of it doesn't play in as much. But, yeah, I have got sympathy for this group. They know how to govern. They know how to govern and could possibly help get the party going in the right direction again. 

Beth [00:16:12] So I think that summarizes the people who are currently holding office. I would put in Chad and I are a big reality fans. And so if you ever watch Big Brother, this metaphor will resonate with you, I think. I would call Kevin McCarthy a floater, that he even more than McConnell wants to have power for the sake of having power and is willing, especially as chair of the House Republican Caucus, where you've got this huge mix of people in the caucus, he's willing to just do what it takes to stay on top of that group. 

Chad [00:16:49] Yeah. I mean, he's an opportunist. I tend to put him more in that first category of let's keep the Trump train rolling, but kind of pushing Trump himself to the back and letting others take that spot 

Beth [00:17:06] Until he needs him, and then he'll go down to Mar-a-Lago and say, "Please, please, get on board again." I mean, I think he also realizes maybe more clearly than some of the people in that group, that you can't really do Trump without Trump. But the midterms might be a test of that. Maybe you can do Trump without Trump. We'll see. 

Chad [00:17:23] Yeah, there's a big projection of -- hate using these terms, the red wave or whatever they're going to call it. Yeah, we'll see. 

Beth [00:17:34] Well, I want to talk about somebody who is not currently in office, but has caused quite a stir in Republican politics. And that is Will Hurd. So if you are not familiar with Will Hurd, he was a Republican representative from Texas. He had a viral moment with Beto O'Rourke. The two of them drove around together and Instagrammed themselves, and it was kind of this bipartisan buddy movie on the internet. Will Hurd is a former CIA operative. When he was in Congress, he was the only black Republican in Congress. He was talked about as like future of the party, rising star, more centrist, very strong foreign policy chops, real willingness to do constituent services like almost obsessed about delivering good service to the people in his district. And I fell out of love with Will Hurd hard during the first impeachment. 

[00:18:26] Because I thought he had the opportunity and the cache to really be a leader in the party during the first impeachment to say that what Trump had done in that call with President Zelensky was wrong and rose to the level of a high crime and misdemeanor. And the fact that Will Hurd not only chose to vote against impeachment, but to kind of give cover through his words to other people for doing the same, that was a breaking point for me. So that's how I feel about Will Hurd. But he is trying to make a comeback. He's got this big piece in the Atlantic from Tim Alberta that has prompted lots of discussion elsewhere. He's written a book. He's clearly considering a presidential run. Chad, you read the Atlantic profile. I would love to know what you thought. 

Chad [00:19:15] Yeah, I read it. After that, I would be interested in reading his book. I think we need more people in Congress that actually have experience, whether it be foreign policy, business or whatever. We've got too many people that are just career politicians. His experience in Afghanistan that was mentioned in the Atlantic article about briefing members of Congress and then having just a very, very, basic question to come up and then be annoyed about not being able to shop for rugs and have to go through this briefing. Yeah, I like his ideas. I like someone who's more pragmatic that's looking to move forward. I have thought for years that we need more of a central party instead of just right and just left. We need a third party, at least, that's viable in this country. I think of a lot of his ideas are right. 

Beth [00:20:11] So there's going to be a little bit of language in this paragraph. We will bleep it for those of you listening with little ones. But I want to give you that warning. But I want to read this paragraph from Will Hurd talking to Tim Alberta to you, because this is where he pulls me in. He says, "The moderates are the ones who behave the same way, regardless of whether their party is in power or not. The moderates are critical to crafting and passing legislation that actually gets signed into law. The moderates are the ones who work the hardest, and we are the ones who get shit done. Extremists do the most shit and get the least accomplished." So that is like music to my ears. That is exactly how I feel about things. I totally agree with you, Chad, about that future focus. There's a lot in this article about his interest in artificial intelligence, how he's worried about what that will do to the labor force. 

[00:21:02] There's a lot about quantum computing and how he is concerned reasonably about cybersecurity and how our infrastructure is going to stand up to advancements in the way people are able to hack and get access to data. I'm here for all of that. Chad, Will Hurd is kind of testing me because especially as we see what's happening in Ukraine and the connection that has to the first impeachment, there is a part of me that thinks you were in office, then you had the opportunity to do the right thing, you chose not to and now you want to be the president?  And it puts me in the mindset of that song from the chicks. Like, you can tell the girl who left her tights on my boat that she can have you now. Like, if you wanted to roll with the Donald Trump crowd, then I am not interested in having you back in a position of power. 

[00:21:55] At the same time, you know, I want to be a person who allows people to move on and allows people to grow. And will think about someone like Will Hurd who does have an enormous amount of experience and say, "Hooray, I'm so glad that you're talking about things honestly, and that you are trying to get back into the arena. I think I would prefer him not be trying to get back into the arena as a presidential candidate, maybe starting somewhere else. But I don't know. I feel kind of push-pull about this. 

Chad [00:22:25] I think he's one to sit back and analyze a little bit. I mean, again, that's his job. That was his job with the CIA. He talks a little bit about the George Floyd situation and not wanting to go out and either march with protesters or talk about the police and how we need more policing. He likes to consider things it seems like. Again, my limited knowledge of the man so far. I'd like someone who's going to think about things a little bit. 

Beth [00:22:59] We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to spend time on that first group of people the Rick Scott, Ron DeSantis, J.D. Vance mix, because Rick Scott in particular has given us the most to consider about what he thinks it means to be a Republican today. So we're going to spend some time on that. Chad, I know you're not excited about this, and that's fair because it is a miserable document, but we both reviewed Rick Scott's eleven point plan, in his words, to rescue America. There's quite to look and feel to this document. 

Chad [00:23:45] There's definitely a look and feel to it. It looks and feels a lot like the campaign letters that we get that commit the mortal sin. As far as it goes with me about campaign donations, the ones that come with many different sizes, a font, bold, underline, italics, all in the same paragraph, which drives me crazy. 

Beth [00:24:07] We should tell you that we set in Thomas Massie's district in northern Kentucky. And Thomas Massie, incredibly, has someone running against him from his right. Thomas Massie, who you would think is like as far off the path as possible in terms of throwing out red meat, et cetera, has a challenger from his right that he is not Trumpian enough. We actually get fliers that say he's a never Trump Republican. It's incredible. 

Chad [00:24:36] Yeah, I like the inexplicable hard hat the candidates wearing, no explanation whatsoever. 

Beth [00:24:43] Yes. So Rick Scott's document definitely feels like all of that stuff. Flags everywhere. I think there's a giant eagle in it. In one place, there's a copy of the Declaration of Independence that appears to be on fire. There's a lot going on here. He has set forth 11 points that comprise the Republican agenda, and we're going to kind of breeze through those. Point number one is about education. I think it's fascinating that he leads with education that tells me that he paid attention to the Virginia gubernatorial race. 

Chad [00:25:14] This is all marketing. I mean, to start with the very first line of the first point being, "Our kids will say the Pledge of Allegiance, salute the flag, learn that America is a great country and choose the school that best fits them," is going to slip that charter school notion there at the end. 

Beth [00:25:33] Yeah, it's very focus grouped, right? It's like I want to appeal to enough constituents to get people excited here. And so you have some language about parental rights. You've got some critical race theory references in there. You've got some freedom of religion. What I think is really fascinating about this is that, first, he diminishes public education with all of the school choice language and government isn't going to decide this for our families. But then he very tightly wants to control what happens in public schools. I also guess this agenda is for the party as a whole because most of what he's talking about here could not be done by the United States Congress. This is squarely in the realm of what states govern. And he doesn't make any differentiation about that. 

[00:26:20] The second point is called colorblind equality. So Rick Scott does not want any race based policies of any kind, anywhere he wants to ban the box on government forms about race, ethnicity or skin color. And then we get to what I think this is really about. He doesn't want any diversity training in the military or in the federal government. He doesn't want colleges and universities to get any federal funding if they consider race in admissions. He ends by saying, We simply do not give a damn what color anyone's skin is. That's the colorblind future America deserves. How did this section strike you? 

Chad [00:26:58] Most of these points, I just don't want to talk about them. They're focus grouped. Let's find some triggers to use to bring in the frothy donors. There's just not a lot of substance here, I don't think.  I think we're trying to drum up support in any way possible. Not to skip ahead too much, but when you go past this into defund the police and then number four is about the wall and naming the wall after Trump. Like, oh, my goodness.

Beth [00:27:32] Yeah. Number four, he's going to rebuild the wall and name it after President Trump. I do want to say about number three I found one thing that I agree with. And I want to just pull out that he wants to eliminate no knock warrants in cases that don't involve violent crime. Again, that is something that would have to happen at like local level. That is not a federal policy. I guess you could do a federal policy and then require anybody who gets funding to comply. But I do agree that no knock warrants are too dangerous for police, to dangerous for people trying to live their lives and totally unjustified in our system. So I was happy to see that. I thought it was interesting that he literally says he wants to defend gun rights at all costs. The phrase at all costs in connection with gun rights really jumped off the page to me. 

Chad [00:28:18] Well you know I'm more of a gun culture -- not gun culture, but I grew up with guns. I'm fine with guns. Yeah, at all costs. Just, I think again is a baiting word or baiting phrase to bring up those that are against anybody that would challenge any gun rights out there. 

Beth [00:28:42] Well, it's just to me is callous because when we have a debate about limiting gun rights, we are having that debate because people are killed, right?  Like, when you say we're going to defend our gun rights at all costs, it just sounds to me like you're saying like the price of being an American is that we have a school shooting every few months and it makes me really uncomfortable. So we've got the border and naming it after the president, we get into some antisocialism. It sounds very much like McCarthyism to me. He says, "Anybody who espouses socialist ideals will be treated as a foreign combatant, which aims to destroy our prosperity and freedom. So I thought that was frightening. 

[00:29:25] So I don't know what that means. I also don't know what it means in terms of policy. He has some actual policy in there, balance the federal budget. No pay for members of Congress unless the budget passes. He wants line item vetoes for the president. So you're going to change the Constitution a little bit here to do what Rick Scott wants to do. Some of the actual policy, I think, sounds fine when he talks about socialism as the enemy, as he does throughout this document. I just wonder, where do you land on Social Security? You know, where do you land on the socialist programs that are a part of the mixed economy we've created here? 

Chad [00:29:59] Well, you can't talk about that, though, because if you want senior voters, you're not going to mess with Social Security. 

Beth [00:30:07] So then he gets into government reform and debt. Basically, he would like to have a fire sale of the federal government. He wants to sell off federal officers, move agencies out of Washington D.C. or close them entirely. There is a real anti-Washington sentiment in this document. Now, I do think it would be great to locate executive branch agencies throughout the United States instead of having it all concentrated in Washington. I think that would be very good for the government. But I was again struck, and I want to get your thoughts on this, Chad. But it's kind of the same thing I said about public schools. There's this real diminishment of the government, but also a sense that the government ought to be very powerful in certain sectors. 

Chad [00:30:48] Yeah. Again, if you're more of an older school Republican, small government is the plan. But that's not what Rick Scott sell in here, 

Beth [00:30:59] Especially, when we get to a point eight about how the nuclear family is crucial to civilization and it's God's design for humanity. And he talks about, I thought there was this amazing sub-bullet about how single moms heroically do the job of raising families. But government should not be shy about saying that kids need and deserve both parents. Then we get to point nine, which I'm just going to summarize by quoting. "Men are men, women are women and unborn babies are babies. We believe in science. Facts are facts. The Earth is round, the sun is hot. There are two genders and abortion stops a beating heart." Probably not much more to say about that. I think we get where Rick is going. 

Chad [00:31:36] They've just lost the flat earth vote. 

Beth [00:31:38] That's right. So Point 10 is interesting to me. He talks about religious liberty and Big Tech as one bullet point to tell us that Democrats and their Big Tech allies, a phrase I would like to discuss in a second, have created a new religion of wokeness that is increasingly hostile towards people of faith. So this is the cancel culture bullet. What I think is fascinating about it, is that Democrats and Big Tech are not allies in any meaningful respect. I mean you know this field well, I cannot imagine that anybody in Big Tech thinks we got to really have Democrats in all offices. That's going to be good for us. 

Chad [00:32:16] Yeah. I've not seen the episode where it's like Uber versus Catholicism. 

Beth [00:32:19] Well, and just that if you are talking about someone as an ally, what do you mean? Democrats are very interested in breaking up a lot of Big Tech and regulating Big Tech. More significantly, there's a lot of overlap between Democrats and Republicans on the idea that our current regulatory scheme does not meet the challenges presented by Facebook, Amazon, Google. And they have different concerns leading into those conversations. But I just think it's, to me, tying Democrats to Big Tech in this bullet point really highlights the disingenuousness of this document and the fact that Rick Scott intends for people to be pretty uninformed. I think he wants this to just feel like common sense. Those of us who understand the world are all going to feel the same way about these issues, and it doesn't really matter how the other side feels about these issues. They're wrong. He says in several places like Democrats say this, no sane person would believe that. There is no good faith here whatsoever in attempting to delineate the actual differences between the parties, it's just they're terrible and if we're against it, they must be for it. 

Chad [00:33:29] I mean, here, I think it's more using the words Big Tech is just thinly veiled that those big tech companies, for the most part, are centered in California. So it's not Big Tech versus religious liberty, it's coastal elites versus religious liberty. 

Beth [00:33:49] And then the eleventh point is his America first point, no peacekeeping, no nation building, but we defend Israel forever. I don't really understand. I mean, I do understand politically why that happens, but philosophically, I don't understand the cohesion there. He says we will treat our enemies like enemies, which I read is a little bit of an endorsement of torture. But that could be because I've spent a lot of time on Supreme Court cases lately. He says the weather is always changing. We take climate change seriously, but not hysterically. We will not adopt "nerdy policies" that's a quote, that harm our economy or our job. And again, I sort of highlight nerdy not to be mean about it, but to say this is the spirit like we must all be in agreement about what is nerdy and what's reasonable. And on a topic as complex as climate change, I don't think that's ever going to be true. 

Chad [00:34:36] Yeah, I think it's interesting that he throws in purchase of government American land by corporations controlled by adversarial governments. Again, a national security consideration. But putting that in there with some of this other stuff is well to use his word nerdy. 

Beth [00:34:55] It is nerdy. I parked on that one for a second to when I was reading it. I don't know if I agree with that or not. I do know that I think we have massive housing problems because we treat real estate as an investment instead of a place for people to live. And I think we need some serious consideration of reform around that because American citizens treating real estate as investment feels a little different to me than foreign governments or entities controlled by foreign governments. So I don't know how I feel about this, and that's what's so frustrating about this document. Every few paragraphs you'll see something and think, oh, there is a real thing there we're having a huge diversity of perspectives in Congress on this topic would be extremely beneficial. But then everything surrounding it tells you that's not really the interest here. 

[00:35:51] So Chad, as I tried to summarize what Rick Scott is putting forward and what it means for CPAC to be meeting in Budapest right now because that part of the party is obsessed with Viktor Orban and Hungary, and what it means that a number of Republicans are still defending Vladimir Putin despite his aggression and war crimes in Ukraine. I find myself thinking the headline here is that we once thought of political power as separate from cultural power. And I think that they have just so blended. That there isn't that separation anymore, and that's why you see sort of the Disney hatred from Republicans, that's why you see people like Madison Cawthorn -- Sarah would certainly bring this up if she were in this conversation that he hired mostly communications staff instead of policy staff. I just think that we have have so entangled political power and cultural power, and that's this this kind of document is the result of that. 

Chad [00:36:58] I think that's the Republicans trying to wield what the Democratic Party has done for 20 or 30 years try to use that cultural pressure to sway voters. 

Beth [00:37:13] Can you say more about that? 

Chad [00:37:15] I mean, for a long time, it could be seen that the Democratic Party and especially actors, media companies were always trying to say, "Oh, the cool way, the cool club to hang out in is with the people that think this way." Now, I think that probably succeeded to a pretty good extent. I mean, the weather today makes us feel like, oh, if you're not on on board with most of these ideas, then you're just not... 

Beth [00:37:49] Backwards. 

Chad [00:37:50] Yeah.You're backwards. And, I mean, that's the same kind of stuff that infuriates a lot of the middle of the country. So is the Republican Party going to where it's trying to use that playbook?  I said the other day I feel like the whole cancel culture conversation where a lot of the left have  just pushed aside. Some people are boycotting this company or canceled whomever. The Republican Party is kind of trying to do the same thing right now with let's boycott Disney and cancel that. I mean, it's the same thing. The same thing that those people complained about, they're using that tactic today. 

Beth [00:38:38] Well, I want to talk about Disney for a second. We have kids right in the Disney sweet spot. We've seen a lot of Encanto. I've listened to We Don't Talk About Bruno more times thanany human should have to. Even though it's a fantastic song, it's been a constant in our lives. Our daughters love Turning Red. And I have been just sitting almost in like slack-jawed, what is happening, as I've taken in the critiques of these movies and the militants against a direction where Disney tells some new stories. That's what it feels like to me. Disney trying to tell some new stories where there's not a clear hero and villain, where family dynamics are central to the plot, where it's an ensemble of characters instead of, like, this is really about Ariel, and everybody else is kind of floating in the background. I'm really surprised at the way people are reacting to this. 

Chad [00:39:38] Yeah, Turning Red, we watched it -- or the kids watched it,  I'm a little late to the game, I just watched it yesterday. It's an okay movie. I can't believe that people are just going nuts about it. I think we're going to see a lot of new movies from. Latter generation immigrant communities. Encanto, not really. But, yeah, there's just going to be some different storytelling. Again, this movie, I thought was okay. It wasn't Moana. Love Moana.  But I've been thinking more about is that because of the subject matter or more that it doesn't fit that that hero's journey model that Moana does and so many really, really, popular movies do? And then I get in a whole rabbit hole about, well, did Disney think this was a great movie or also just an okay movie? They put it on their streaming servers directly instead of taking it to theaters. Is that a play on trying to build that Disney Plus up? Or, again, did they just think it was, okay, we'll put it on there. But I don't have a problem with the movie. I thought it was great -- not great, okay. 

Beth [00:40:57] I thought it was great. I really enjoyed it. It meant a lot to me to just have period products visible in a movie. I don't really know how to talk about this without getting into the details of it. But you know your period is such a huge part of your experience. And to have never seen that on screen and then to suddenly see it, it just was a really big deal to me. I'm kind of surprised by how much I appreciated that little tiny moment when the mom embarrasses her at school by bringing her pads. You know,  it just meant a lot to me to have that not be something that has to be a big secret. 

Chad [00:41:38] Yeah, I can see that as being very groundbreaking, but it was such a tiny part of the movie. I think they really make a point of saying that her turning into a big red panda is is not that and not really to do with that. It's more about just controlling herself.  

Beth [00:41:58] I liked the family dynamics in it. I have thought with both Turning Red and Encanto that the portrayal of men in these movies is really awesome. And we at least put up a tweet where someone said these movies feel like they're about women being complex and interesting, and they're married to some guys. But I don't really see it that way. I think the men in these movies are awesome and multidimensional and treat everyone in the family really well. So it hasn't struck me that way. 

Chad [00:42:31] You like it. The guys are in the background and have little bit parts. Okay. 

Beth [00:42:35] I don't think that's true, though. I mean, they feel more like ensemble movies to me. Like one of the most important scenes in Turning Red is with the dad, right? They have this really wonderful conversation that changes her perspective on who she is and what's happening. 

Chad [00:42:50] Those were a great 15 seconds. 

Beth [00:42:53] It was longer than 15 seconds. And you love Moana. I love the dad and Moana where you have this person who is making some mistakes with her, but it's clearly from a place of love. It's the struggle that every parent has. And I just think that the way Disney is portraying men is so much better than that pure hero, pure villain dynamic that men have carried in movies for so long. 

Chad [00:43:19] Yeah. I think we need both. I'm fine with both. I'm again happy that a movie like this was made. Yeah, it's okay. 

Beth [00:43:30] It's okay. It's fine. That reflects our general enthusiasm level around here, anyway, that we're kind of reserved people. Sarah brings the enthusiasm to the party. I want to say about the political dimension of going after Disney, that I hope this is a bridge too far. I understand why, and I profoundly understood this when we were at Universal and in the Harry Potter world. I was looking around at people just filled with joy to be in Diagon Alley. And I thought, I understand why people don't want to be told the author of these books has some hateful views and therefore you can't enjoy any of this anymore. I understand why that is a political loser. 

[00:44:19] And I understand how you can love those books and critique the author and hold those things together. I get that we're not all there. I mean, every time we talk about Harry Potter, someone sends me a lengthy email to tell me why you can't hold those things together. And I respect that perspective, but I do not think the vast majority of the country is going to be there at any point. So I look at what Republicans are doing with Disney, and I also think the vast majority of the country is not going to get here. You are not going to take Disney from this country. I don't think. I don't think you're going to tell people because of the way they're portraying these characters, you have to reject all of this. What do you think about that? 

Chad [00:45:00] No, I agree with you. I don't think the rest of the country or the majority of the country is going to get there. I mean, even with some musical artists that are not great people. It's okay sometimes just to appreciate something that's created. 

Beth [00:45:15] I do think that's where most people are. What I think connects with people is the conversation about gender. And as I read the Rick Scott document and as I listened to a lot of what's coming out of DeSantis that sort of don't say gay and all of that, I think they're taking everything way too far. I think the majority of the country wants to be a loving and inclusive place. I do think people have questions about gender roles and that these questions about gender roles are hitting hard and tenderly and in ways that people have a hard time discussing. And I think the Republican Party makes gains by saying, "Gosh, you can't even talk about it without someone yelling at you." 

[00:46:00] And that's where I want to do better work here on the podcast, better work in in everything Sarah and I do to make room for people to have good conversations that are not closed doors where people can be heard and discuss things that are really hard without feeling like I'm going to get canceled or I'm going to reject absolutely everything because all of this is so uncomfortable for me. Well, Chad, thanks for talking about Republicans with me. So as we conclude this conversation, I would love to know your general vibe about the party here in April of 2022. 

Chad [00:46:40] My vibe about the party is not great right now. I still can't say that I'm fully in support of everything that is happening in all parts of the party. I'm just hopeful for the future. 

Beth [00:46:55] Well, I like that you're hopeful for the future of the Republican Party. I am not. 

Chad [00:46:59] Or hopeful for whatever it becomes if a new party is created. Fingers crossed. 

Beth [00:47:07] I am feeling more comfortable all the time with the democratic label because, you know, when Sarah and I started Pantsuit Politics, we talked a lot about ourselves as sort of the gas and the breaks. That if there's a problem, Sarah wants to bring the federal government to that problem like the gas. Like, the government can do so much to solve big problems. Let's use that tool. And I'm more of the brakes. Hey, there are a lot of unintended consequences when the government comes in to solve a problem. 

[00:47:34] And then we reverse on private industry, I'm the gas there, she's the brakes. And that you need both in the car. As I have observed the last year of the Biden administration, I feel like this version of the Democratic Party has the gas and the brakes in it, in the way that I mean. You have people with big ideas about using the government to solve lots of problems and then you have people saying, "No, that's too much. We're not going to do it." And when I think about what's actually been passed and done under this administration, I'm pretty comfortable. 

Chad [00:48:08] Gas brakes, you forgot a steering wheel, I believe. 

Beth [00:48:12] Well, that's a good point, but we've never used in that metaphor. I mean, I hope the steering wheel is our shared interest in living in this country together and being willing to give and take and compromise sometimes and saying, "No, we want to go forward together." What I worry about, especially with some of these factions that we outlined in the first segment about the Republican Party, is I see people who who don't want there to be a steering wheel. They don't want to be in the car together anymore. 

Chad [00:48:40] We also need a GPS in there too, I believe. Air conditioning also very helpful. 

Beth [00:48:44] Okay, thank you for belaboring my metaphor. I really appreciate it. We're going to leave it here. I'm so curious about your thoughts on where the Republican Party is today. And next up, we're going to just lighten it up and talk about television. 

[00:49:07] So, Chad, outside of politics, Sarah and I usually have a cultural conversation, things that we're enjoying. We enjoy a lot together in the evenings because we are in that stage of life where our children and our work take all of our day energy. And so at night, it's like, let's see how long we can stay awake to watch something. 

Chad [00:49:24] How's that been working out the last couple of nights? 

Beth [00:49:26] I know. I have been a very bad TV watching companion this week. 

Chad [00:49:30] We have been three nights finishing one episode of Survivor. 

Beth [00:49:33] Listen, Sarah is on vacation. I am working with Alise and Maggie to keep this whole thing going. It's a lot of work. I'm tired.

Chad [00:49:40]  No, I'm tired too. I'm pretty sure I fell asleep on one of those too. 

Beth [00:49:44] So what's your favorite thing that we're watching right now? 

Chad [00:49:47] So we're just going to talk about stuff that just you and I are watching together. 

Beth [00:49:50] You can add some recommendations at the end, but let's have a conversation together. 

Chad [00:49:54] Because TV, I can go deep. 

Beth [00:49:58] Yeah. 

Chad [00:49:59] Favorite thing together.  Beth has said we've been watching Succession. I've watched it all the way through, so I'm going back and watching it with her again. I'm picking up a lot of stuff that I missed before and reliving some of the fun of that show. It's great. But Beth and I really, really, really,  like -- not going to call them reality shows because they're not. They're so much more than reality shows. Competition shows. 

Beth [00:50:27] We do like competition shows. 

Chad [00:50:28] Specifically right now, Survivor and Top Chef are on. So not like the singing competition shows. The girls love Masked Singer and stuff like that. 

Beth [00:50:40] But I think with the exception of Top Chef, which I would say is more of a pure competition show, I think we like the like social experiment genres. 

Chad [00:50:51] Yes! Give me some game theory with Big Brother, Survivor, Top Chef. I mean, there's a lot to be thought about it. You can write papers on the metagame of some of these shows. 

Beth [00:51:04] I think, especially survivor. So survivor's been on forever now. I want to know what you think the trajectory is. Do you feel like it's getting better, that it is just consistently good, that it's gotten worse? How do you feel about that? 

Chad [00:51:15] I think it's been pretty consistent. They try to reinvent some parts of it. I think the last two seasons, which I think were filmed pretty much one right after the other, whereas the contestants of the current season were not able to watch the previous season. They threw some new game dynamics into it that have, I think, brought it back to really what Survivor is meant to be. Gosh, it's probably been 10/12 years ago, there was  a big push to kind of  make the game more fair in the minds of the contestants. I'm specifically thinking about the year with Terry, where he won all of that but then did not get the final. Russell Hantz, probably one of the greatest players from a social game standpoint, until the very end when everybody decided, oh well, we don't like this guy. He was too good, so we're not going to let him win. 

Beth [00:52:18] Well, I don't think they would have said he's too good. I think you had people saying, "I'm not comfortable with it just being a game and people being willing to lie to each other and manipulate each other." It was almost like everybody started to say, "I don't think this is a game. I think this is a social experiment that we're part of and we should treat each other a certain way inside it. And that goes into how how you win or lose." And I feel like the shift now is more like, no, it's a game. It's a game, and we should respect the way people play it. 

Chad [00:52:45] Yeah, I think it's coming back to that. It seemed like for a few seasons they're just trying to give it to who they thought was the most deserving person. 

Beth [00:52:52] The kindest. The most moral person. And you like that we're getting away from that again. 

Chad [00:52:56] Yeah, I mean, I want to see a good player really work both competitions and the social aspect of the game. 

Beth [00:53:03] What I like about Survivor, I think it has much more successfully evolved than Big Brother. I think Big Brother has gone straight downhill. And Survivor, I think the adjustments they make to the game are always about sort of preserving the spirit of, like, this is a new adventure. You are not going to understand exactly what's going on all the time. You're going to have to make some calculated risks. I also like that they seem to have moved away from really trying to build survivor celebrities. They were bringing people back to do it again way too much, I thought. And it changed what it was about. It was more about these characters instead of about the experiment itself. 

Chad [00:53:43] Yeah, too many seasons really in a row of bringing back what they call All-Stars or older participants. Yeah, I'm glad we're getting away from that. I like to see new people play the game in completely different ways. Big Brother, the quality of the contestant has just dropped so much. It's more about people getting on that show trying to get -- 

Beth [00:54:07] A modeling contract.

Chad [00:54:09] A modeling contract and acting contract. 

Beth [00:54:11] All right. We're watching Top Chef. I also think Top Chef is consistently high quality. 

Chad [00:54:16] Yes, I think Top Chef is a great show. Loved to watch some great cooking. That's a show that has kind of gone through an evolution of the very beginning where it was very much the old school hierarchical kitchen format, guys that were just cut throat. It's more cooperative, which I think fits pretty well in the show. Yeah, I can't say enough good stuff about Top Chef. 

Beth [00:54:46] Well, so I'm going to say the opposite thing about Top Chef that I said about Survivor. I like the way Top Chef has cultivated kind of celebrity contestants. I like the way they have built up the expertise of the winners, having them come back as judges. That works for me in a way that bringing people back to do survivor over and over again doesn't. I think it's because Top Chef is about a craft, and it's about developing expertise over a period of years and what you really know. And I think Survivor is made through the experience of, like, this person doesn't know how to do this, how do they respond? 

Chad [00:55:22] Yeah, I'm excited for both this season. If we can stay awake and get through, we get to catch up. We're behind. 

Beth [00:55:28] I know. I got to stay awake. Okay. As we wrap up, Chad, what shows am I not watching that you would highly recommend to people? 

Chad [00:55:36] Oh, so many. So this has already gone through, its run on HBO, but Station 11. Great show. 

Beth [00:55:44] What's it about? 

Chad [00:55:46] It's a post-pandemic show, which I know doesn't sound fun right now. 

Beth [00:55:50] No, thank you. 

Chad [00:55:50] Trust me, it's a really good show. I enjoy the Taylor Sheridan stuff. So Yellowstone's coming back. Mayor of Kingstown. Hey, don't shake your head. If you like Succession, there's a good part of Yellowstone that's very much the same. 

Beth [00:56:05] No, because Succession does not have the gruesomeness and the violence of Yellowstone. I can hang with these people are  bad people who allow their personal ambition to set their entire moral code, but I cannot take that, including murders and just torture. Like, I've tried a few episodes of Yellowstone and I couldn't do it. I'm rooting for our friend Piper Perabo, who has a part on that show. I'm so delighted for her. I cannot do it. 

Chad [00:56:35] Okay. Well, if you're not for the violence, Ozark will probably not be a good recommendation for you, but for others. Ozarks final half season is coming up. Also, kind of fun Winning Time on HBO, which is the story of the rise of the Lakers in like late 70s early 80s. 

Beth [00:56:55] I am interested in Winning Time. 

Chad [00:56:56] Done by Adam McKay. So Succession, part of that. It is a really good show. John C. Reilly plays Jerry Buss and does a hell of a job. 

Beth [00:57:08] Why did you start watching that without me? 

Chad [00:57:12] It's basketball, I didn't think you would be interested in that. 

Beth [00:57:15] What? That's unfair. 

Chad [00:57:17] It's also a little gritty, little gratuitous and tange. 

Beth [00:57:21] Okay. You know I have a delicate spirit. 

Chad [00:57:24] Yeah. 

Beth [00:57:24] Yeah. Chad, thanks for doing this with me. 

Chad [00:57:27] Thank you for having me. 

Beth [00:57:29] Thank you all for listening. Sarah will be back here next week. Chad and I are going on spring break with our daughters. Chad's real excited. We're going north for spring break, which doesn't make a lot of sense to him. 

Chad [00:57:37] Does it make a lot of sense? 

Beth [00:57:38] But it's still going to be lovely time. 

Chad [00:57:40] There's warmer weather to the south. Beth says let's go north. 

Beth [00:57:42] I know. But we're going to have fun. We're going with some friends. So Sarah will be here next week. We've got a whole lot of great stuff planned for you. Thank you. As always, have the best weekend available to you. 

[00:58:03] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. 

Sarah [00:58:11] Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:58:14] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:58:18] Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katrina Zugenalis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[00:58:37] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lily McClure, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katie Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Valleli, Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whited. 

Beth [00:58:54] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.