Watching a War

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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EPISODE RESOURCES

UPCOMING EXCITING PROJECTS AT PANTSUIT POLITICS

Erin Hicks Moon

Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine

Vote Mama

TRANSCRIPT

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:00:00] Elizabeth Warren called me and probably one of the worst days of my campaign. My kid had recently broken his leg. I was a mess and she asked me how I was doing and I burst into tears. The first time I talked to Elizabeth Warren, I burst into tears. She gave me this mom pep talk, and she said, we moms when you run out of milk, we make breakfast with orange juice. She told me about her aunt bee, how she almost quit her law professor job. And we just had a really real conversation. And that conversation was probably the first time I really started thinking about Vote Mama and wanting to make sure that we could support other moms running. 

Sarah [00:00:38] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:40] And this Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:41] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:00:56] Hello, and thank you so much for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. If you are new to the show, and especially if you found us through GMA3. We are so happy that you're here. Thank you so much to the team at ABC who hosted us so graciously. It was an amazing opportunity and it was great to meet Amy Robach and Dr. Jen and all the fabulous people at ABC. So thank you all. We hope if you're new, you'll find our different approach to the news refreshing. We're going to take a really different approach to the news this week because Sarah is on spring break with her family in Utah, and I am overjoyed to have our good friend Erin Moon here co-hosting with me while Sarah is out. Hi, Erin. 

Erin [00:01:35] Hi. Am very nervous. Big shoes to fill with our beloved Sarah gone. 

Beth [00:01:39] It's true. But if anyone can do it, Erin is one of the smartest, funniest, wisest people I know. You probably know Erin as senior creative with Podcast Media Group from her excellent podcast The Bible Binge and Faith Adjacent, or her absolute delight of a newsletter that I read first thing every Friday. 

Erin [00:01:57] That is very kind. 

Beth [00:01:58] Before I hit the news, I read the swipe up. And I'm so glad you're here.

Erin [00:02:04] Oh my gosh, that's so nice. Stop it. I also cherish any time you and I get to spend together. For your 40th birthday, I sent you a picture that said, You are my personal blood pressure regulator. So it is just, like, it's a very nice dose of like extra joy for me this morning to get to speak and talk to you just like have a little conversation with you. That's a joy for me. 

Beth [00:02:24] It is a joy for me as well. And the fact that you feel that way when we're about to talk about the war in Ukraine really is a testament, I think, to the fact that you are as lovely offline as you are online. And I'm just so happy that you're here. 

Erin [00:02:36] Well, glad to be here. 

Beth [00:02:37] So we are going to talk about developments in Ukraine today and really the effect on the world of all of us witnessing this history in this horror in real time. And then we have some Sarah for you. Before she took off for Utah with her family, Sarah sat down for a fantastic conversation with Liuba Gretchen Shirley, who is the CEO of Vote Mama, and Josie Raymond, a Kentucky state representative, and they are discussing how you mother and legislate at the same time. So I know you're going to love that conversation. And then we'll end as we always do with what's on our minds outside of politics. And I have some questions for you, Erin, about how you consistently managed to find the best that the internet has to offer. Whenever I'm ready to be done with social media, I read the swipe up and I'm like, no social media has so many treasures to cherish." 

Erin [00:03:25] So much treasure to find, really. I'm excited. 

Beth [00:03:28] Before we get started. I am at this point, perhaps legally and contractually required to tell you that we have a book coming out on May 3rd. Now What? How to move forward when we're divided about basically everything. And Erin is going to help me because she knows I struggle to talk about the same thing all the time. I do love this book. I do want you all to read this book. Erin has read the book and generously endorsed it. What should people know about this book, Erin? 

Erin [00:03:51] Here's what I will say about this book. What I love about the two of you is that I feel like you are such helpful captains as we're figuring out how to love one another. Like, I mean, deeply love the people that we are in conflict with, or that we are "opposed to". Whether that's politically or that there's a religious aspect to that or there's like a racial divide. Like, I feel like you guys are so good at helping us understand the actual psychology and physicality of loving these people that we are frustrated with. And I think that speaks to the two of you as people both online and in person. You are deeply, deeply, thoughtful and so careful and caring with the ways that you, I will say, shepherd people in this space. And so I think this is a really helpful guidebook for those of us who -- and I think that's everyone at this point. We all have someone in our lives that we love deeply, that you just look at them and you're like, fundamentally, how does your brain work? Why do you believe this thing? And  just think that is going to be so crucial for us as a society. Like, in the next years that we are going to have to figure out how to work together. At some point, we've got to say enough is enough. We're going to actively pursue community with one another. And I think you guys are such gracious hosts and figuring out how to do that. 

Beth [00:05:25] Oh, thank you. Thank you.  Could you come back and do that every week until the book launches? It will be really helpful to me. 

Erin [00:05:32] Like, probably just like a pep rally. I love it. 

Beth [00:05:35] Well, so I want to tell you that if you preorder the book, which is our ask of you, we would really love for you to preorder the book. It helps us in so many ways. We will invite you to a special event as the book launches. At the end of every chapter, we have discussion questions about the chapter to try to help you think a little bit more deeply about what you just read and think about how you want to apply it in your life. So during this preorder event, Sarah and I are going to talk through some of those questions together 

Erin [00:06:00] That will be so excellent. Oh my gosh, I'm totally going to come to that. 

Beth [00:06:04] It's going to be lots of fun. Erin, before we start talking about witnessing what's happening in Ukraine, I wanted to do just a brief review of where we are. It's been a few episodes since we've kind of gone through. Here are the facts about Ukraine on February 24th, Russian President, Vladimir Putin, ordered what he called a special military operation and Russian forces invaded Ukraine. Ukraine has since stunned the world with its forceful resistance and has even started mounting counter offensives. So Ukraine has taken back parts of the country that Russian troops had managed to hold. Peace negotiations have been ongoing, and Sarah has described them as a roller coaster. It really does feel that way. You get this glimpse of hope and then that hope is dashed. It's just hard to negotiate with someone who is as dishonest and unethical as Putin. 

[00:07:01] Over the weekend, the internet was flooded with videos and photos from Bucha right outside of Kyiv and. Some of these images and videos have been confirmed, others have not. But what we are appearing to see are mass graves, bound bodies shot at close range. We have a report from Human Rights Watch about looting and rape and just real atrocities being committed by Russian troops in Ukraine. We know from British intelligence that there is heavy fighting continuing in Mariupol. And we know that European countries are starting to talk in very strong terms about war crimes and considering what to do about Europe's reliance on Russian fuel. Because really the next wave of sanctions to be meaningful would have to involve Europe sanctioning oil and coal. So that's where we are. And I'm wondering, Erin, as you have observed the coverage of this over the weekend, what is standing out to you? 

Erin [00:08:03] Just that the absolute overwhelming evidence of war crimes, like I can't -- and I listen, I'm a theater major. Let me just say that out loud. Like, I am not a foreign relations expert, but I think what it's doing is it is the overwhelming amount of criminality and absolute atrocities being committed is so overwhelming. And I think it's really, really, important for us to pay attention to this. When is it enough? When is too much happening that we will no longer sit by and watch this? And because that's what we're doing, we're having to watch this. And there are things that we can do and we're going to talk about those, which I think is fascinating. But this so painful and endless. And nobody wants my white tears, I get that. I really, really, do. Nobody wants my American tears in this. But it is amazing to see the stark reality of what these people are dealing with. There's just so much cognitive dissonance as we're having to also, you know, take kids to soccer and do all of these things while there is -- I mean, and this isn't the only conflict that's happening, but it's definitely the one that's the most visible right now. And so I think it's just overwhelming to see war atrocities happening in real time when we thought these types of things did not necessarily happen in these types of places any longer. And it's taking a toll, I think, on everybody. And I think that's okay to say. 

Beth [00:09:48] I think it's okay to say too. I think it's important that it take a toll on us. I don't want to be a person who can take this in and be unaffected by it. And I understand the pushback that there  are things like this happening all over the world everywhere, 100 percent. I can only take in what I can take in every day, and in some ways we all are at the mercy of what mass media focuses on.  And I understand why Ukraine is receiving that focus because at least economically, this conflict is going to affect everyone in the world. When you think about how much countries in Asia and Africa depend on Ukraine for wheat, for example. You know, you can see the interconnection of the world around this spot. Tom Friedman had a New York Times opinion piece that I thought was really interesting, where he pondered whether this is actually the first true World War. He calls it World War Wired, which is hard to say. 

Erin [00:10:42] Very difficult. 

Beth [00:10:43] Very interesting framing. Here's what he wrote. I want to get your reaction to this. "Virtually, everyone on the planet can either observe the fighting at a granular level, participate in some way or be affected economically no matter where they live. While the battle on the ground that triggered World War Wired is ostensibly over who should control Ukraine. Do not be fooled. This has quickly turned into the big battle between the two most dominant political systems in the world today. Free market, rule of law, democracy versus authoritarian kleptocracy." 

Erin [00:11:12] I love this piece. I thought it was fascinating. And it brought to mind -- I'm assuming that you read the American Girl Doll series. 

Beth [00:11:20] Oh, you know what, I did not. My daughters read a couple of those, but I did not. 

Erin [00:11:24] You did not? Well, it reminds me this feels there's so much conflict creativity coming out of this. And what I mean by that is, when I remember reading Molly's stories in the American Girl Doll series, and she is a child that grows up during World War Two. And I remember thinking, what a fascinating way to support a war effort. And they were talking about victory gardens. And they were talking about,  you know, we have to have to eat what's our victory garden. We're not using cans because we need cans for, you know, whatever they need to cans for. And I think there's a lot of that going on here. Like, this essay talks about like people that are supporting digital creators from Ukraine via Etsy or Airbnb or anonymous or teenagers creating apps that track  wealthy Russian business tycoons yachts in different parts of the world. So I think there's this like very almost DIY kind of inventiveness that has taken over where, like, we're all like waiting for a government to do something. We don't actually have to do that anymore. We don't have to wait on anyone. We can actively influence what's happening from our own bank accounts, from our own social media. And I think like it is truly a democratization of a war effort. I find that to be enormously fascinating as someone who has not cognisantly lived through a conflict like this.

Beth [00:13:04] I really like that. You drew that parallel to World War Two because I think it is easy to feel that technology has really changed the game here and it has in terms of scale and awareness. But you're right that civilians have always played a meaningful role in supporting war efforts. There was this really interesting piece maybe a week or two into the Russian invasion of Ukraine that appeared in The Bulwark from Ben Parker, and he was asking the question, what would it mean for civil society to go to war with Russia if the American government doesn't make that declaration? Now there's this whole body of scholarship about whether sanctions are an act of war or not. And I thought there was a really great episode of Ezra Klein's podcast making the argument that sanctions very much are an act of war. That if we create a situation where Russian citizens are unable to get food, to access medicines that they need, I mean, that is as much an act of war as most other things. 

[00:14:05] So it's not that that our government is doing nothing, it is providing weapons. It's probably doing a whole lot that we don't know about. You're probably exactly right. Certainly in the intelligence realm, the effectiveness of Ukraine's military forces, I think, has to depend largely on coordination with American military personnel. But all that aside, if civil society goes to war with Russia, boycotts and otherwise, Ben Parker raised the question, can Russia retaliate against civil society and what does that look like? Does that up the stakes of cyber warfare? It is a lot to think about. What does a war mean here in 2022 when, as Tom Friedman puts it, like three to four billion people, half the people on the planet have a smartphone and are able, I liked this phrase, to peer deeply into so many more places than they ever have before. 

Erin [00:14:57] Yes, I think a lot of this was actually birthed by the beginning virality of this conflict. This attack. I think it started with the the viral video of the Ukrainian grandmother who was shouting at the soldier and telling him to put sunflower seeds in his pockets so that when he dies, the national flower of Ukraine will come up. And, listen, that is the energy that goes hard and I love that. When you see videos of little kids who are in train stations turned bomb shelters, and they've created like a playground  on the wheelchair ramp and you go, "Okay, they are a part of this resistance."  They are actively playing a role. And I think Tom Friedman had a great opinion piece last week about the US's dependance on Russian oil and gas. It's just like if we can't bomb the S-word out of the Kremlin, which is, you know what my heart wants to do, then we have to find other ways. Like, we have to be creative in this conflict. And I think there's an invitation about what that means and how we respond. And also, are we prepared for the repercussions of that? I don't know. I don't know if we are. And I don't even know  fully what those could be. But I do think it is a very fascinating kind of door that's been opened to civilians to aid in a way that maybe we haven't necessarily had full control over in the past. 

Beth [00:16:37] And I think that that has really important dimensions in making all this more real for us. I also worry that because as a civilian, I can't imagine all those ramifications,  it is working on me in ways that are a little bit destructive. Because I find myself thinking, why aren't we getting militarily involved at this point? Why are we not shutting this dumb thing? Absolutely not. It cannot be that you have access to nuclear weapons, so you get to do whatever you want in the world. That cannot be the rule. That cannot be. And then I have to remind myself, you know, as much as this feels like a world war to you, Beth, Tom Friedman is probably overstating the case. Because if we're talking about this as democracy versus authoritarian kleptocracy, where's India, one of the largest democracies in the world? India is trying to sit this out. India is trying hard not to choose between the United States and Russia. Where's Mexico? Our neighbor has not gotten involved here. Where's Brazil? Not to mention everything happening in Africa and Asia. That other than economically, is just not seeing this is an ideological struggle that they want to take part in? So my frame of reference is too small to make a decision about a world war. But it is really hard to remember that when I'm watching the grandmother with the sunflowers and watching President Zelenskiy at the Grammys and making this impassioned speech to Congress. 

Erin [00:18:10] Yeah, I think, for me, I'm paying sharper attention to this because I've been to Ukraine. I spent time with Ukrainians. I know people who live there. And I think there is a nuclear component. Like, that is why also a lot of people are paying attention to this. But that doesn't mean that other places are not worthy of my attention. I think it's helpful to say, Here's why I connect with this, and maybe I need to find better reasons to connect with other places." And I need to lean in more to that discomfort that you're talking about of,  it would be great if we could do this. But also we're not the only ones. We're not alone in this. I feel drawn to this place because I have a pre-established connection, and maybe that's a call to myself to establish other connections in other places. But I know that it's very important to pay attention. I think we always want to investigate, especially people in positions of privilege, no matter what kind of privilege that is, where our attention lands and why. And then if we can sit in a posture of curiosity about that and not judgment, I think it enables us to kind of prosecute within ourselves and understand why something has captured our attention in the way that it has. And if we can push through that and keep going through that, we'll learn so much more about the world and ourselves and we'll be able, I think, to be better helpers in the world. 

Beth [00:19:38] Well, speaking of being helpers in the world and this civilian effort to support the people of Ukraine, you've been a part of that. You've been telling stories about your connection to Ukraine and connecting people to how they can get involved. Will you talk a little bit about that? 

Erin [00:19:50] I met Madison Pragathi about 20 years ago. She's an American. She's from Alabama, and she fell in love with a Ukrainian Europe and they got married. They have four kids. They live in Ukraine. They live in Odessa. They work with the deaf community there. And they were actually on a pre-planned trip to the states when Putin attacked. And so they are kind of stuck here, but they have leveraged being here in such a powerful way. I think they have a war relief fund that they are using too. They bought a van like a couple of weeks ago. They just bought a van for one of their friends who is using it to get people evacuated across the border. They are able to send things like supplies to refugee camps. They have an Amazon wish list that they have stocked fully and they're trying to get supplies out to refugee camps in places where a lot of aid isn't able to make it through the lines. And so I think that's a part of it, right? Like, tiny stone in a huge wall. Tiny, tiny, stone in a huge wall of trying to get people to listen and to hear and to help and to support. And so they have been huge in connecting me and a lot of my community as a way to be involved and show support and be helpful. So I highly, highly, recommend you follow them. And I think it's important no matter what sphere of influence we're in, that we're leveraging it for the things that we truly believe in. And I  want them to be able to tell their story. And so it's been a real joy for me to be able to kind of share that platform a little bit. 

Beth [00:21:46] I love that. And I think that that's true both at the individual and the global level. It can be really discouraging to think seriously about war crimes, because war crime as a term sounds so authoritative and there's no real authority around that system, right? We can only be accountable to people we consent to having judgment over us, and Putin's not going to consent to anyone's judgment. And that makes it really difficult to say what the effect of charging him with war crimes might be or investigating war crimes. But I think the powerful lesson of history is that the purpose of pursuing war crimes and naming them as such is the truth telling. 

Erin [00:22:31] Yes. 

Beth [00:22:32] And the storytelling. And making sure that people understand what happened, the smallest stories and the largest ones, so that we can be part of that wall and put our stones in and make the difference that we're able to make, whether it is being supportive of a people through our actions or just just knowing what occurred, because knowing what occurred really matters. 

Erin [00:22:58] Yes, I think it's the same thing as we're seeing with like Holocaust Erasure. I think as long as we keep that story, as long as we don't forget that story, then those people live on. And really that sounds cheesy and I know that, but I truly believe that that's true. And, listen, the Ukrainian social media presence is a master class right now. I mean, truly, it's a very weird thing to say good job on the marketing of this conflict. But I think that happened in World War one and World War Two, newspapers like magazines reels before movies started. I mean, those were all these kind of marketing campaigns to help people understand what was going on and help people understand why we're fighting. And the way that the Ukrainians -- and not even just the government. I mean, everyday Ukrainians are documenting this. It's brave. It is enormously brave and they could suffer repercussions. We have seen reports coming out of people who were being found in bomb shelters. Their phones are being checked for anti-Russian sentiments, and they're being killed for that. And I think the storytelling aspect is so important. And that's why Russia has contro,l over so many people in their country because they're telling a false story, but the story they're telling is very compelling. 

Beth [00:24:30] Yeah, we've said the pen is mightier than the sword forever for a reason. And I think you're right that the story being told here on the daily gets more important. I mean, there were reports over the weekend that Putin's popularity in Russia is rising because of the way that state media has been able to tell the story of this war to the Russian people. Also, because a lot of people who don't agree with this war are leaving the country, are making efforts to get out or are being silenced and jailed and otherwise kept from telling the truth by the Russian government. So every conversation I have about Ukraine is deeply unsatisfying because I want to fix it.  I want there to be a fix. I want the world to have an answer other than we all just keep doing our best. But I think we all just keep doing our best is where it lands. 

Erin [00:25:19] I think you're right. I think there's so many blind spots that I have as just a person walking around in the world. And I can't know how to fully understand things unless I'm hearing from people with actual lived experience. And my favorite theologian, Dr. Wilda Gaffney, actually talks about this. She talks about using sacred imagination. When you're thinking about scripture, like, when you're meditating and kind of thinking about what happened on the fringes. And who is affected in the fringes of this particular story. And I'm big into deploying that idea with like a responsible check and balance of sanctified common sense. So you put those two together, and I think we have to use those two together when we personally observe events like this, we have to pay attention to like, okay, I'm seeing this. God knows what I'm not seeing.  And also, I have to use my own common sense to say, here are the ways I can help. But also I have to function as a person in my own society right now too. 

[00:26:21] Like me laying in bed all day because I saw videos from Bucha is not necessary -- like, it's a morning and it's important to to mourn that. I do not want to gloss over that, but also it's not helping anybody if I'm laying in bed. I can't be a helper in the world, as Mr. Rogers talks about, if if I let myself be paralyzed by that grief. I have to keep going. And I think the Ukrainian people have been an excellent example of how to do that. I mean, they are handling this. I mean, humor, memes.  I can't believe we're memeing a war. Like, that's insane. We did it for a epidemic, so I guess that makes sense. But it's just been incredible to watch them really graceful. Like, I don't think they should have to be graceful. I don't think they should have to be funny or witty or clever but they are, and I find a lot of encouragement in that. I don't know if that's even appropriate to say 

Beth [00:27:25] We can only be what we are as humans, right? And we need humor to get us through hard things and we need encouragement to get us through hard things. Every time I say that there's something inspiring happening in Ukraine, a part of me just dies inside because I hate that. 

Erin [00:27:39] Yeah. Thank you. That makes me feel so much better that you said that.

Beth [00:27:41] I do. I hate that. But I also recognize that, like, that is a response, and I am just a person. I'm going to have a full range of responses to this. And to your point about not laying in bed all day over it, I have been thinking so much about opportunity cost. And realizing that opportunity cost has a flip side. So it's not just that I do one thing, I lose the opportunity to do something else. It's I do one thing, I free someone up to do something else. 

Erin [00:28:12]  Okay. I like that. 

Beth [00:28:12] And so I make a difference in my community. It doesn't directly help the effort in Ukraine, but maybe it frees up a resource for somebody to focus their gifts and talents and influence where they have it. And there's a long chain of that.  And so if I take care of what's here in front of me, I think it does add to taking care of the much bigger picture. At least, I hope so. 

Erin [00:28:35] I hope so too. I really do. 

Beth [00:28:37] Well, we're going to go from something that feels very much out of our sphere of influence now to something directly in our sphere of influence here. And domestic politics, Sarah, is going to take us on a hard turn to her conversation with Vote Mama CEO Liuba Gretchen Shirley, and Kentucky state Rep. Josie Raymond. 

Sarah [00:29:04] I am thrilled to be joined by Liuba Gretchen Shirley, the founder and CEO of Vote Mama, the nation's first political action committee dedicated to electing progressive moms up and down the ballot. And my friend Josie Raymond, Democratic State Representative Representing Louisville's 31st district. Welcome to Pantsuit Politics. I'm so thrilled y'all are here. I need to know this just right up front. Josie, I'm pretty sure you're on it. I have a Pinterest board that I made just for my own personal enjoyment of women mothering and legislating at the same time. It's amazing. I just don't want to brag, but it is so good. There are so many amazing photos. I can't remember the name of the Italian Parliament member who's been like bringing her baby for like three or four years to Parliament. Have a lot of pictures of her. She's the best. 

Jossie Raymond [00:29:50] And when, like, Ron Johnson or somebody says women ought to stay home, you just pull up your board and just dive in to Pinterest. 

Sarah [00:29:59] I do. It's like anger management. Yes. I just think it is like just seeing it. There's just something about seeing images of women mothering and legislating in the very same moment that --. 

Jossie Raymond [00:30:13]  I sometimes bring my kids and my baby with me times when I don't have to. And sometimes you all know it's more trouble to bring them than leave them someplace. 

Sarah [00:30:23] Yeah. 

Jossie Raymond [00:30:24] But it's it's not just to set a good example for other women and show them what's possible, is to make the men in the room look at us. 

Sarah [00:30:32] Yes.

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:30:35] When I was running, literally leaders of my own party would say that I was using my children as political props, and that they had never seen a candidate use their kids as much and take their kids with them as much on the campaign trail. And they were frankly two reasons why I did. One, I did not have child care. And, two, I missed them running. 

Sarah [00:30:54] Yes. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:30:55] Running for [Inaudible] at any level of government, you are working nonstop and you have small children and you want to see them whenever you can.If you can bring your kids with you places, it's something that you do and that you should do. It normalized is what it looks like to run as a mom. 

Sarah [00:31:09] You ran for Congress New York's 2nd District. Tell us about that. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:31:13] It was the last thing I thought I was going to do. I didn't plan on running for Congress. I had a one year old and a three year old at the time. I had a representative who had consistently voted to hurt working people in my district and across the country, and he had been in office since I was 12 and hadn't faced a good, serious challenge in a long time. And it always won by 20 to 40 points. And when he came out in support of the Muslim ban, I called his office and I said, I'd like to come in and speak with you. And they told me to come in at three o'clock. And by the time I got there, they had locked the doors and sent the stuff home. They told me the police told them to because I was also having a protest in front of his office that day and we had 400 people march. And he later agreed to meet with me, but just because we had such a big protest. But he told the press that he met with the leader of a resistance group, not a constituent, not a mom with kids in his district. A leader of a resistance group. 

[00:32:09] And when I asked if he would hold a town hall because there were hundreds of thousands of people who wanted to talk to him, his exact words were, "No. A town hall would only diminish democracy.". 

Sarah [00:32:18] Oh, my gosh. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:32:19] So I held a town hall for him, had a six foot cardboard cutout of [Inaudible]. That cut out lived in this attic, which is where my office is now for a long time. I finally gave it to a friend who wanted that. But I really had no intention of running and then people kept asking me. I had started an indivisible group. I had started organizing actions and I couldn't not run. It was not easy to do with small children, but it was the best thing I had done, honestly, and we built a really incredible grassroots movement. 

Sarah [00:32:51] Well, and I think you are such a good example of what we talk about all the time here on Pantsuit Politics, which is campaigns. Just the campaigns themselves are public service and impactful. And you in particular became the first woman in history to receive federal approval to spend campaign funds on child care, which I know is some work that Vote Mama does. That's very important to you. The first time I read that as a former candidate myself, it's sort of like I had a similar moment when I took the bar, like breastfeeding a four week old baby. And then, like several years later, somebody sued for breastfeeding rights. And I said the same. I was like, "Why didn't I think to stand up for myself in that way?" Why didn't I stand up to say, like, "Hey, I have to pay for child care. Hey, I need a breastfeeding break. I just think that that's so endemic. It's like you just assume that's the way it is and it's going to stay. And your challenging enough. So, first of all, just bravo to be the person to say, like, "No, no, I'm challenging enough. And also, this is not right." 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:33:50] Thank you. I mean, I don't know how you took the bar while nursing a four week old. That alone is amazing. I mean, I was nursing my kids when I was running and it was it was hell. So that's incredible that you did that. But when I asked if I could put this request in and I asked my team and I asked my consultants, I didn't have a choice. I had given up my salary. We were living on my husband's salary alone and paying our mortgage, and taxes, and our school loans. I couldn't also afford the cost of childcare. I mean, everybody knows how expensive childcare is. I don't need to fill you guys in. But it's not possible. And this is why so many women with young children don't even think to step up and run. And this is why we have so many millionaires in Congress. It is very difficult to run for any level of government on a state level, especially because so many of the state levels are not paid livable wages that you end up with people who are independently wealthy in these positions. So I put this request in and everyone said I was crazy. They said it was political suicide that I would be attacked as the woman, that I would be attacked as a mother. It was told not to do it. And I remember being really nervous and going down to D.C. to testify, and I had my kids with me. And it was a bipartisan unanimous decision and it changed the way that people run for office. We've now seen both men and women, Democrats and Republicans using campaign funds for child care. There was more than a 300 percent increase in the funds used from 2018 to 2020.  It really breaks down. It's the first structural barrier that we've broken down to make it easier for working parents to even think of stepping up to run. 

Sarah [00:35:18] Yeah, I was watching Ali Wong's new standup special last night and she was like, "I'd be so much more successful if I had a wife." And isn't that true of congress? Isn't that just the trues oft everything but particularly Congress? Now you started Vote Mama, but you also have Vote Mama Foundation, which is the leading source of research and analysis about the political participation of mothers. And that's how I found you. The 19th reported on it.  I was like reading this article, so it interested me. I'm, like, Oh, this is so fascinating. Then, of course, they quote Josiah. I'm like, "Wait, I know her." I just call her. Now, how many kids did you have when you ran the first time, Josie? 

Jossie Raymond [00:35:52] My kids were three and one. 

Sarah [00:35:53] And now you have another one. 

Jossie Raymond [00:35:56] And then in my first term, I had my baby. So now they're eight, six and two. 

Sarah [00:36:00] Oh, my gosh. And so when you participated in this research on, you know, running and leading and governing as a mother, what was your motivation and what do you wish people understood? 

Jossie Raymond [00:36:14] I'm so grateful that the Vote Mama foundation is doing it because we know so little about not just the experience of mothers who are serving, but just like who are they and where are they. Are mothers serving? And if so, what are the challenges? And if not, why not? When I had my third baby, when I was serving in the Legislature, I became the first state representative to give birth in office. And what that means is that for the last couple hundred years, we just haven't had enough women in their 20s, 30s and 40s who've been able to serve. So I think in the next decade you'll see many more babies born to legislators. But what has shocked me about serving is how little representation mothers of young children have. And  we can get lost in our baby bubbles, right? Daycare pick up, at school pick up, at youth sports, baby gym and think everybody I know has got a baby,right? 

Sarah [00:37:13] Yeah. 

Jossie Raymond [00:37:13] But it's very easy for other people to not see us. So when you look at any legislative body, any legislative body, you're going to see relatively few women. You're going to see even fewer mothers, and then you're going to see very, very, few mothers of young children. Like, the mothers we've got here in Kentucky, their children are grown or they're in college for the most part before that woman decides that she can run. So what this research is showing us is, who are these women, where are they, how did they get there? What are the barriers for them while they're thinking about running, while they're campaigning and while they're serving? Liuba named one, which is the cost of child care. I'll name a few others, and this is data that's going to be illuminated. It's not going to be anecdotal anymore. Me complaining about something, right? We're going to have actual data in this field, but the timing of serving. 

[00:38:04]  Here in the Kentucky Legislature, we find out what time we're starting the next day the night before. 

Sarah [00:38:10] Oh, geez. 

Jossie Raymond [00:38:11] You know, the men in leadership gavel and they're like, Tomorrow we convene at two. Tomorrow, noon. Tomorrow, 4:00 p.m. And, like, hope your spouse, your partner, your parents are ready to take on the childcare duties at home. Another piece is the commute. I drive 45 minutes each way each day. 

Sarah [00:38:31] That's what I was saying. I live hours away from Frankfort, [Inaudible] are going to do. 

Jossie Raymond [00:38:35] So here in Kentucky, and I bet it's this way in every state legislature, the people who live in about an hour and a half radius of the capital have young children because they're driving back and forth every day to put them to bed. This is men and women. Everybody who lives farther than that, every representative who lives farther than that isn't caring for young children. Because those people aren't even campaigning. They're not even putting their names on the ballot. And then the third piece I want to name is the day job piece. Liuba, you talked about millionaires in Congress. We got millionaires in state legislatures because it is so hard for a working parent to say, "Hey, I'm going to need three months leave so I can go legislate in the capital."  And then another piece of it is, like, you're then a public Partisan, right? And the way we're so divided these days, you're a target from one side or another. And a lot of workplaces are like, I don't need that. So these are some of the barriers in my experience, and we're going to learn more and more what the barriers are for other moms [inaudible] and then we'll be able to start tackling these barriers. 

Sarah [00:39:41] You know, it reminds me so much when we had an Helen Petersen on to talk about childcare infrastructure and the barriers to everyone for childcare, no matter what your job is. And she talked about  the challenges of it being like a temporary time in everybody's lives where we get in a space of like, let's just get through and let's just survive because there isn't a lot of extra energy effort, attention to it to attack the systemic changes. And you get this attitude of as people get older, like, I went through it, you can too. One time we had Senator Warren on and I, like, almost started crying.  I was, like, "You never bring that energy to this, and I just really appreciate it." The sense of I did it and I shouldn't have had to, and you shouldn't have to either. 

Jossie Raymond [00:40:26] You know what I need? I need an aunt B. She always says that story for her aunt B. Yes, she says, but not everybody has an aunt B. I'm like, I don't have an aunt B.The one thing I wanted to say is, as we're not thinking as much in policy making spaces about women with children, we ought to be. Because in my district and most others, it's the single largest voting block, we don't vote at the highest rates, which is something we need to work on. But if you want to do the demographic breakdown of your constituents, the single largest group for me and many reps is women with children at home and they've got unique challenges. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:41:03] You know what you just said, though, about how it's a temporary point in your lives, where you need childcare and you have young children? It's a temporary period in your life that affects your entire life, your entire financial security, because it's usually the women who are pushed out of the workforce. It's usually the women who are staying home to take care of the children. They're not contributing to their retirement accounts, they're not contributing to their Social Security. They are losing out on income when they do hope to go back to the workforce if they choose to. It's really difficult to find a job, and it's really difficult to find a job that pays well. 

Sarah [00:41:33] Yeah. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:41:33] Motherhood is looked at as this break that you take from your career. And so now you're years behind. You know, I have been a stay-at-home mother, a run for Congress mother and a work from home mother. I understand all of these aspects. Being a stay-at-home mother was the hardest, and it was very difficult for me to not be the breadwinner for that point in my life and to know that I wasn't contributing to my financial security. And that's why we have so many women who are older, who are not financially stable, that are actually living in poverty wages because they took time out. And then if you get divorced later, you have older women who are in dire financial straits, and a lot of it comes down to that point in your life where it was supposed to be just this temporary period. But it affects everything. 

Sarah [00:42:15] It's just our very like stunted, messed up views of caregiving because caregiving isn't just limited to mothers of young children. And there is caregiving aspects of so many of our lives, single people caring for parents, caring for disabled partners or disabled relatives or being in the need of caregiving. Because you've got a chronic condition or you've encountered, a disability or something like that. Like to me, it's just it's we want to silo that stuff. We want to silo primarily the women, particularly women of color that are doing the work, underpaid work to prop all the rest of this up and like pretend like it's just it doesn't impact everything when it does. That's why I love this conversation of caregiving as infrastructure. I think that that's so important. And two here's what I want to ask you wondering, though, this vivid memory of a local politician. When I was in college telling me that she wrote to Sandra Day O'Connor when she was thinking about running for office and Sandra Day, O'Connor said, "Have your kids get it all out of the way and then go pursue your career," which is like the Nancy Pelosi model, right? Have the kids then go do it. And I think it's like, I don't think it was, you know, nefarious. I understand the source of that advice. But I do think I wonder how often you encounter that with like older female politicians and legislators who like, just do it this way, it's easier for everybody. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:43:43] There is very much that mentality, and that's why women usually don't get into leadership positions until they're in their 60s and their 70s. Men are there in their 20s and 30s because you have to take care of children, usually. They have a life at home. And this is something that holds women back. When I was running any time I would talk about child care, or paid family leave. Someone would always say you should ignore the women's issues and stick to the bread and butter issues. That would infuriate me because even before the pandemic, we were losing $57 billion a year because of the lack of child care. So if you're not talking about child care as a basic infrastructure issue. As a basic economic issue, you're missing the point on what's actually happening to people all across this country and women with young children get that. By the time you have your first child, all of a sudden you realize the lack of paid family leave and child care. You realize how difficult it is. You kind of know that our policies are bad. But until you're actually experiencing it, it's difficult to fully grasp just how bad it is. And at that point, you're too busy trying to survive new motherhood and trying to save some part of your career that you don't have the time to go out and fight for policy changes, for systemic change. And that's where Vote Momma comes in both our tax side and our foundation side. The foundation is really working to break down the cultural and structural barriers that moms face when they want to step up and run and when they're serving. And the PAC is working to elect democratic moms across the country from school board to Senate. It's necessary to have both working together, and you have to just normalize what it looks like and talk about these issues in a realistic way. 

Sarah [00:45:16] So tell me about the work, specifically surrounding child care funds and campaigning. What are? Where are some of those battlegrounds? Are there places people can call in and support legislation? Tell us where that's at. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:45:28] So right now, the FEC approved the use of campaign funds for child care for all federal candidates with my request. We actually have to now go state by state to approve campaign funds for child care for state and local candidates. So there are now 15 states that have approved this through legislation. There are 10 who've approved it through ethics rulings. And Virginia has approved it through an attorney general ruling. We are now going back and trying to codify it in the states that have passed ethics rulings because of you. Even if you have an ethics ruling. There are some candidates who are still afraid to use their campaign funds for child, or they're afraid that they'll be attacked. So codifying it really makes a difference in normalizing it and making people feel more comfortable using it. Currently, we have 12 states that have legislation by Hawaii, Iowa, Kentucky. Thank you, Josie. You said Ohio, Virginia, which just passed the Senate right now in Virginia, Washington, Missouri, Maryland, Nebraska, Tennessee and Kansas. So everybody can go to our website, votemamafoundation.org, and there will be letters for each state that you can sign on to. If you want to support campaign funds for child care legislation in your state, and we have three states that are about to introduce legislation, so we will keep you posted on that. 

Jossie Raymond [00:46:37] Here in Kentucky it's House Bill 312. We'd love your support on house Bill 312 and I requested that you be hear it from the elections [Inaudible] and we'll see. But I wanted to go back to what you said about women being told to wait still happens. We can attest it still happens sometimes with gatekeeping. Absolutely. Sometimes it's nefarious. Sometimes it's really misplaced. I think and people are telling women to wait, sometimes because it is hard as hell. But when we three and others are saying, don't wait. Run. We're not saying be a martyr. We're saying, I need you to be part of the critical mass that changes how things operate. But what's frustrating and what we've got to keep pushing on is that, since when is white motherhood in the minority? In the Legislature? That's where it is, right? And it's like my motherhood so often is seen as just a logistical challenge. It's strictly a logistical challenge or a heavy lift like a personal thing I've got going on versus a real source of strength, expertize and connection with the electorate. And so it's a political opportunity that we're missing when we're shutting women out and when we're disregarding this identity. 

Sarah [00:47:57] Man, I love that so much. I just want to let that settle for a minute, but it is a source of strength. And a political opportunity that's really powerful, and I think every female legislator that puts themselves out there and shows that it can be done either through campaigning or governing or organize, all of it, I think is so powerful and impactful. I mean, it's I feel like we talk about to the point of it sort of becoming something we don't hear anymore. But like seeing someone who looks like you whose life looks like you is impactful and important. So what do two you to think is the sort of the the next frontier. Like, what are we either through this research or additional policy changes, what do you think will sort of open up another level of participation among young mothers? 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:48:49] So passing campaign funds for child care in all 50 states. Our goal is to do all 50 states by next year. I'm fairly certain they'll be able to do that. That is the first structural barrier that makes it easier for candidates to run or think about running. So that's really been the first structural barrier. It's the low hanging fruit. I don't want to say low hanging fruit because it's difficult in some states, but it's the first and easiest thing that we can do to make it easier for working parents to run. There are so many structural changes that needs that need to actually happen. For instance, as Josie was talking about the level of salary for state legislatures, in some cases you don't get paid anything. In some states, you get paid $100 per session. In Georgia, one of our state reps that we work really closely with, she has four children. She spends over 300 percent of her income on child care. We need to we need to professionalize state legislators full time and that they get real salaries so that you can have people from all walks of life running up. They were set up to be the citizen legislature, but what it really is older, wealthy men who have consulting firms or their lawyers, or they are independently wealthy. 

Sarah [00:49:53] And they let me say, as a former city commission that is not limited to State House system [Inaudible], that is true of city commissions. That is true of mayoral races. This is true in many, many places. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:50:04] Yeah, it's completely true. Very, very, few local positions get paid real salaries. So you end up not even you can't even build a bench of working people and you're missing out on those critical voices that needs to happen. Normalizing what it looks like at all levels, having lactation rooms, having women's conferences, having moms caucuses. 

Sarah [00:50:23] I didn't even know. I'd like the word mom caucus so much. But I do. I just love it so much. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:50:28] It's so necessary. Honestly, when I started to vote on a PAC, I wanted to have a place where you could come and talk about what's actually happening to you while you're campaigning with small children. I remember I'd find an article here or there from Pearson [Inaudible], and I'd read a quote. And I remember thinking if they can give birth while serving in office, somehow I can manage to do this with two small children. But until you actually have somebody that you can talk to. It's really difficult. Elizabeth Warren called me on probably one of the worst days of my campaign. My kid had recently broken his leg. I was a mess and she asked me how I was doing and I burst into tears. The first time I talked to Elizabeth Warren, I burst into tears and she said she gave me this mom pep talk, and she said, me, moms, when you run out of milk, we make breakfast with orange juice. She told me about her aunt B, how she almost quit her law professor job, and we just had a really real conversation. And that conversation was probably the first time I really started thinking about voting on it and wanting to make sure that we could support other moms running. We've had moms who we support break into tears on the phone with us all the time because, someone's kid was mad that they couldn't take them to soccer practice because they had to come home. Just having someplace to have that real conversation and not feel judged makes a difference in terms of getting you through your campaign. 

Sarah [00:51:43] Please rest easy knowing that I also cried on the phone with Senator Warren. 

Jossie Raymond [00:51:46] I see you all, I hear you all name dropping, okay, I'm the only one who is not friends with Elizabeth Warren. 

Sarah [00:51:55] Not only did I cry same, like, I really appreciate that you never bring that like I got through what you should too. But also my children were interrupting me several times while I was on this Zoom call with the senator it's just perfect and all the way. Jossie, what do you think? What is like some of the next big barriers, the next policy changes that would make a difference in your life right now, legislating with three kids? 

Jossie Raymond [00:52:19] So we've got to support families and it's almost cliche, like when people hear me talk, right? I'm always like, people are listing challnges, and I go, you know what would help with that? And they're like, yeah, because I know I'm going to say pre-K. I'm known as probably the state's leading pre-K advocate. And paid leave, and other things I think that are going to support for families. But the reason why is because I'm like, no, really, no really. It would help with that. You'r concern about women in the workforce. This would help with that. You're concerned about youth violence. This would help with that. You're concerned about growing the economy. This would help with that. You're concerned about kindergarten readiness. This would help with that. I call it the silverest bullet. And so we're I mean, we're just continuing to try and gain momentum on that front. And here in Kentucky, we are, so build back better is whatever this [Inuadible] building it's. But it advanced the conversation in the short term here to the point where you have the governor of Kentucky putting out a universal pre-K proposal and then you have the Republican chairwoman of the House Education Committee putting out the dueling universal pre-K proposal. [Inaudible] Win either way. And I don't anticipate that will pass either of those this year, but the conversation has now gotten to like, how are we going to do some of these things rather than if we're going to do some of these things? And so that's why I'm remaining hopeful. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:53:47] Can I just say you literally just proved my entire theory? 

Sarah [00:53:51] That's exactly what I was just thinking of. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:53:53] So the research that we're doing in the state of motherhood, we're going through and actually trying to figure out who are moms who are moms of young children and how that actually affects legislation? We're literally looking at whether or not a state has passed paid family leave. Have they passed universal pre-K? Do they have full day kindergarten? Have they codified Roe? And we're looking at that to see how it correlates with how many moms are in office. The fact that you, Jossie are the first woman to give birth while serving in the Kentucky Legislature, and you are the loudest voice on universal. 

Sarah [00:54:20] Yep. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:54:21] Is literally the end to me. 

Sarah [00:54:22] Not an accident. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:54:23] It's not an accident at all. And it's the whole point when you get moms into office, they actually legislate on their lived. Everybody legislates on their lived experience. So when you elect billionaires, they're trying to pass tax cuts for billionaires, and millionaires. But when you elect a mom, she tries to pass universal pre-K. 

Jossie Raymond [00:54:37] You know what bill is going on today removing property tax on jets? 

Sarah [00:54:41] Perfect. That's perfect. That is a [Inaudible]. That is one of my top policy priorities. Okay. 

Jossie Raymond [00:54:52] [Inaudible] actually said a lot of people have jets. 

Sarah [00:54:55] No. No, they don't. 

Jossie Raymond [00:54:56] You know what a lot of people have jets. 

Sarah [00:54:59] No they don't have jets. 

Jossie Raymond [00:55:01] Well, Liuba, but I hope you're right. And we need to keep like we can be a big tent. You don't have to be a mom to advocate word. And so I need some other people to pipe up so that my colleagues don't shut down when moms talking again. Wah wah wah wah. I've been here for years and I'm frustrated most of the time, but there are glimmers. 

Sarah [00:55:27] That sounds like motherhood. What a perfect summary. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:55:36] I have to give you a quote that somebody told me earlier today. They're working and passing campaign funds for child care in a state. I'm not going to say which state yet, but one of the white male senators who's over 70 literally said anyone who pays that much for child care belongs in a straight jacket. Yeah. That is a person who never. 

Sarah [00:55:54] Because what he thinks is a big, wide open market where we can shop around. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:55:58] It's a completely failed market that people who are in these levels of positions of power don't understand because usually they had somebody help take care of their children. Usually they had a spouse at home to do that, and they're completely lacking. They don't understand how much childcare costs today parents can't afford to spend anymore. The child care centers operate on razor thin margins, and the people who work at child care centers, where mostly women of color literally get paid minimum wage and live on public assistance and can't afford safety of child care for their own children. It's a failed market that doesn't work unless we actually have public investment. It needs to be invested as a public good the way that we invest in public school. And until you elect more people like Jossie, we're not going to have that willpower. We don't have that political desire to actually change things unless you elect more people like Jossie. 

Sarah [00:56:45] Well, I wouldn't say like, we invest in public school because we also don't invest in that either. 

Jossie Raymond [00:56:51] Every panel I'm on, every event, I share my number, my child care number. And so I say I'm paying fifteen thousand dollars a year there's somebody in New York City, or Chicago that's going to say, what a bargain. 

Sarah [00:57:04] Because I'm jealous. 

Jossie Raymond [00:57:06] But $50000 a year for one baby. And how many families have two or three or four in childcare at the same time? And then I say back to the center that has a 200 kid. Wait. Oh my gosh. 200 kid waitlist to spend $15000. So there's a whole lot of people we've got to put in straitjackets. 

Sarah [00:57:22] Yeah. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:57:24] Now I'm walking the walk. And I chose the center that well. It starts its employees at $12 an hour. Whew. Right. But that's a good thing where we live and they've got benefits. And that's a big differentiator in the childcare market. And so then you see strong retention. So then you see the same women taking care of the same babies and making those deep connections that we know are vital. 

Sarah [00:57:47] As we say, because for what it's worth, turnover is not just bad for the child care center, it's bad for the children. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:57:51] That's what we're paying for. That's what we're paying for is consistency for the kids and we're able to do it. And that puts us in the luckiest. I don't know. Luckiest 10 percent or something like that. So we need some of these people to get their eyes opened and we need some of these people to retire. 

Sarah [00:58:07] Yeah, yeah, I agree. Ladies, this has been a blast. I just feel like we just had like a fun phone call conversation and we just happened to record it. Thank you so much for doing the work that you do, obviously, for dedicating yourselves to this incredibly important issue. I really don't want to even say issue just like reality, because issue is too limiting. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us. 

Liuba Gretchen  Shirley [00:58:32] Thank you. 

Jossie Raymond [00:58:33] Thank you.  

Beth [00:58:42] All right, thanks to Sarah and Liuba and Jossie for that conversation. Erin I have questions for you. 

Erin [00:58:49] Okay, I'm ready. 

Beth [00:58:49] Frequently, I'm like, I'm done with social media. It's bad for us. It's bad for me personally. I have a headache when I spend too much time on it. Then I read your newsletter and you showcase just the most delightful and delightful is the right word because some of them are funny and some of them are inspiring, and some of them just capture life in a little bite sized chunk that makes you feel so understood. So I want to know what your approach is to the internet. I feel like I might be doing it wrong other than letting you guide me through it. 

Erin [00:59:21] Well, I think I think like anything else, the internet is a tool and social media specifically is a tool, and there are ways that it can be wielded as a sword or a hug. And both of those things are very valid. I just I love connection with people, truly. That sounds, just about as bull corny as you can possibly get. But truly, that's why I got on the internet is because I like to connect with people. I love seeing other people's lives. And what kind of? So I started the newsletter when I didn't have enough Instagram followers to have a like a link. A swipe up is what it was then. It's not that anymore. And so I would share stuff. And then on Fridays, I'd be like, Well, here's the link to everything I've shared since Instagram is the worst, and they won't let me share links because I only have four thousand followers or whatever anyway. And it just kind of grew from that. And I just, I don't know. And now it's so great because people will send me stuff they'd b like, hey, did you see this? I'm not on Tik Tok because my husband thinks that someone spying on us, which is fine, but people will send me TikToks and they will be. So it's just so helpful to have like now we've kind of crowdsourced it to the point that people will send me great, great stuff, that I'm not never going to be able to see. And it's just it's like a little fun. It's like a little fun party of red ice. That's kind of the vibe. 

Beth [01:00:57] I love that you a crowd source. So that makes me feel better because sometimes I'm like, how did she fund all of this? Does she have more hours in the day, than night? 

Erin [01:01:06] No, I don't. Well, and I also have like I would be remiss if I did not talk about my integrator, Hannah. She is amazing. She also finds a lot of great stuff for the newsletter. So it's not. It is a group effort for sure. 

Beth [01:01:18] What is your favorite source of creativity right now that you're watching? I know that's a big question. But I do. Part of what I love about your work is I feel like it is a celebration of creativity, like you're a creative person recognizing other people doing creative things. And I love that. 

Erin [01:01:34] That is very kind. I'm glad that is the vibe you get that makes me really happy. I think, like other people, are a great source of creativity for me. I get on like Twitter and I'm just like, how are people so funny? I don't understand it. Why are they so funny or why are they so smart? Like I just I feel like we there is just this again, this democratization of really fantastic people. And now there's a way for us to access them. And I have a dear friend who started a writing collective. She's brilliant. She's one of the smartest people I know. And you would be it would behoove everyone who ever wanted to be a writer to work with her. And now you have access to her. It's like, and it's it's such a great. It's such a great thing, I think, to get to see other people blossom in the thing that they love and we're meant to do. I mean, that's why we all listen to you and you and Sara, because it is so wonderful to see you in your pocket. And I think the internet is full of people in their pocket, and that is a great source of encouragement and inspiration for me creatively. 

Beth [01:02:51] I love that. I want to talk to you about dirty hair Friday. First of all, can you tell everybody who doesn't know what dirty hair Friday is and how you started it? And I just want you all listening to understand that if you are a fan of my daughter Ellen Silvers, who is six, which I know many of you are because of her frequent unscripted appearances on our show, Erin just brings Ellen's whole personess to the forefront. She loves watching dirty hair Friday. She lights up, you can tell, like she even recognizes that spark of a person in their pocket doing what they're meant to do. 

Erin [01:03:25] Stop. That is, I love her so much. Oh my gosh, I was hoping that she would join us today. But you know school I understand. So I started dirty hair Friday, really, as because I wanted to talk to people on stories. But on Fridays I never have my hair clean or it is wet from my cleaning it. And so we started dirty/wet hair Friday as just a way to chat about stuff that is in the newsletter. I always forget something cool. Forget to put in the newsletter. So we talk about that. But I know that people want a poo poo community on the internet, and I get it. I see it from both sides. I understand that there can be a disconnect, but I also know and have seen the power of community on the internet. When the pandemic started, my newsletter subscribers gave me the greatest idea, which was I'm obsessed with spreadsheets. And so they were like, we should start a spreadsheet of like people who need help and ways that we can support them. And so people just started posting like, hey, my husband got laid off or, hey, we got COVID and we're alone in the city, whatever. So and people just started meeting needs like it was crazy. They just started meeting needs. We had like one of the best things that happened was we have a newsletter subscriber whose daughter has cerebral palsy. And I was like, was not going to be able to have a birthday party. Usually, her birthday parties were sparsely attended by friends, and it was just always really difficult for this mom. And she was like, I would love it if I could get some birthday cards for her and the the internet, like, went insane. And she sent me a video of her porch at the party and its five rows on her patio all the way around birthday cards for people. 

Beth [01:05:21] I love that. 

Erin [01:05:22] I mean, it's like, I go, listen, that's powerful and I won't. I will not stand for people who talk S-word about people finding community on the internet because I think it is. I think if the pandemic has taught us anything, it is that it is a valuable, very real life way to connect with people. So I don't know. It's been amazing. Like I am fully inspired by the people who show up in that community. They comment. They share their own treasures in the newsletter. They actually started a separate book club like that I have nothing to do with, which is amazing. They've started a separate spreadsheet where it's like, hey, I want. I took up knitting and I would love to practice on people. Send me your address and I'll send you a scarf. Just things like that. Or like, hey, I have a lot of experience editing resumes, so I would love if you have if you're like, if you got laid off from COVID or whatever send me your resume and I'll help you like beef it up. And it's just like, this is what I'm talking about. Like, this is the good stuff. I love it. 

Beth [01:06:28] I love that, too. I was in a class over the weekend. We were talking about how frequently in religious communities you'll hear people say, well, God never gives you more than you can handle, but you hear versions of that in non-religious context. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger like that whole thing. And it was a really fascinating discussion that I'm going to summarize, and I hope that this is fair to the discussion. I'm going to summarize it as like, well, on we frequently get more than we can handle all of us.

Erin [01:06:57] Constantly. 

Beth [01:06:58] Like, almost every day, are we getting more than we can actually handle? 

Erin [01:07:01] Yes. 

Beth [01:07:02] And secondly, saying it like that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger or you'll never get more than you can handle kind of relieves us of the obligation to help each other. 

Erin [01:07:11] Hmm. 

Beth [01:07:12] And what I love about the way you connect people on the internet is, you're saying no like it is our obligation to help each other. And actually, it's also really fun and really good for us and who we are and the people who are becoming to do that. 

Erin [01:07:24] Yes, selfishly, I love feeling this way. I love like there's something that happens in my own soul when I get connected with someone who I have a resource that they need. And so to be able to share that with them, that is to me the point of we belonging to one another. And there are people who have things that I need there, and that they give them to me with with joy and no expectation on a return. That's truly part of the gospel for me. And so that's deeply, deeply meaningful for me as a person of faith and someone who cares deeply about the things that the founder of my religion says. 

Beth [01:08:08] Well, you've met a need for me today, and I appreciate you being here so very much. 

Erin [01:08:12] You've met a need for me, thank you so much. This was a joy. I I hope I did your audience right. 

Beth [01:08:20] I know you did, and I so appreciated and come back any time. Thank you all for being here. On Friday, I will have another special guest. My husband, Chad Silvers, is going to co-host with me on a wide ranging discussion on what Republicans are up to. So I hope you'll listen in on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you. 

[01:08:46] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [01:08:52] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [01:08:58] Our show is listener supported. Special thanks to our executive producers 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [01:09:02] Martha Bronitsky, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Heller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katrina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[01:09:19] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lily McClure, Emily Neesley, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Valelli,  Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whited, 

Beth [01:09:37] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nicole Berklas, Paula Brimmer and Tim Miller. 

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