Hard News, Joyful Movement, and Bachelor Nation

Beth interviews Emily Ho on today’s podcast to discuss size inclusivity and body neutrality.

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• Sarah and guest host Leslie discuss headlines from Ukraine to Elon Musk

• Emily Ho on Size Inclusivity

• Outside of Politics: Bachelor Nation

Thank you for being a part of our community! We couldn't do it we do without you. To become a financial supporter of the show, please visit our Patreon page, subscribe to our Premium content on Apple Podcasts Subscriptions, purchase a copy of our book, I Think You're Wrong (But I'm Listening), or share the word about our work in your own circles.

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EPISODE RESOURCES

UPCOMING EXCITING PROJECTS AT PANTSUIT POLITICS

• Sarah and Beth were featured as GMA3’s podcast of the month

• Get tickets to our live show in Waco, Texas on April 30th with Clint Harp!

• Pre-Order our new book Now What?

• Join the launch team for Now What?

• The Audiobook for Now What? is now available for pre-order

• Join Sarah and Clint Harp for a Peloton Ride Tuesday, April 12 at 8 EST/ 7 CST

Emily Ho

• Emily’s Website

• Emily on Instagram

Discussion Links

• Inside Wartime Russia, Putin isn’t Losing (Axios)

• Russia has defaulted on its foreign debt, says S&P (CNN Business)

• In France, it’s Macron vs. Le Pen, again, for Presidency (AP)

• Elon Musk decides not to join Twitter board, says CEO Parag Agrawal (CNBC)

TRANSCRIPT

Leslie [00:00:00] It has been fascinating. There has been so much drama that is not manufactured because you have really, really, young and let's say impressionable or drunk people making choices. And watching people make choices guaranteed it's going to be a good time. 

Sarah [00:00:25] That's true. That is true. That is a fair point. It is fascinating to watch people make choices. I agree with that. 

[00:00:38] This is Sarah Stewart Holland, 

Beth [00:00:40] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:41] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. I'm thrilled to be back here with you today after spring break. We have a very special episode featuring my beloved friend Leslie Foss, who has stepped in to co-host with me while Beth is on spring break. Welcome, Leslie. 

Leslie [00:01:14] Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. 

Sarah [00:01:17] We're going to tackle the headlines at the top of the show and then outside of politics, we're going to ask a very important question that Leslie is invested in and I am completely uninvested in. Has the Bachelor franchise jumped the shark? But before we get to that for our main segment, fear not, you'll get to hear from Beth. In today's episode, she recorded an amazing interview with Emily Ho or, as you may know her from Instagram, Authentically Emmy about exercise, fashion and size inclusivity. Emily will also be taking over our Instagram tomorrow on Wednesday, April 13th, so get excited about that. Before we get started -- well, actually one very important note, Leslie, I thought we should make, if people hear you call me gunner which you do -- never. 

Leslie [00:01:59]  I would never -- I do.

Sarah [00:02:02] Do you  want to tell them why you call me gunner. 

Leslie [00:02:04] We call you gunner because in law school you were a gunner, which means that you raised your hand very enthusiastically, like out of its socket many times to join the discussion. I didn't mind it because I didn't want to get called on. So it took some of the heat away from other people. That's a benefit of having a gunner. 

Sarah [00:02:26] True. True. True. The best part is I gave myself the nickname because my husband, who'd already graduated from law school and was working as an attorney, was like, "Wait, are you a gunner?" And I very mistakenly shared this conversation.Just at a party or something and people were like, "Oh, yeah, that is you." So I gave myself this dumb nickname. 

Leslie [00:02:44] Yeah. 

Sarah [00:02:45] It's funny because sometimes, Leslie, you're the only one who pretty consistently still calls me that, and we'll be around friends from college and they'll be so confused. I remember one time in D.C. you were with my friend, Annie, from college and she was like, "Who's gunner?" And I was like, "Oh, that's me, sorry." Sorry. I'm sure our audience is just shocked and appalled. 

Leslie [00:03:02] I'm sure they can't imagine the fact that you had a lot to share during our law school discussion.  

Sarah [00:03:12] Right. Now, before we get started, leslie, have you heard that we have a book coming out? 

Leslie [00:03:16] I have heard. 

Sarah [00:03:17] You have heard. Now, have you preordered your book? 

Leslie [00:03:19] I have a preordered. 

Sarah [00:03:22] I was like, you better not be just be hoping out because be shared that preorder bonus link with you because you're my friend.

Leslie [00:03:29] I haven't gotten a link yet, but I have ordered it. 

Sarah [00:03:31] Well, you got to fillout the form. This is good. We can talk to you through this process. Yeah, once you preorder, which we hope you all will, you can fill out a form. We'll put the link in the show notes, and you'll get invited to our live launch party on May 3rd. Or you can show up at Waco on April 30th and celebrate with us that way, which would also be fun. 

Leslie [00:03:49] That would be nice. 

Sarah [00:03:51] Yeah, you can come. You want to come? 

Leslie [00:03:53] I can't because Peachy and Chapo [Sp] will be in town. 

Sarah [00:03:56] Oh, that's Leslie's parents. They're the best. Okay, that's a valid excuse. So in celebration and anticipation for this Waco event, Clint Harp and I are going to host a Peloton ride together tonight as this episode comes out, Tuesday, April 12th, Seven O'Clock Central. The link is in the show notes. If you are a Peloton person, come ride with Clint and I. It's going to be great. 

Leslie [00:04:21]  I will not be there. Will not do that. 

Sarah [00:04:22]  I know you won't be there. I know you won't be there. But people with Peloton who like exercise can come. 

Leslie [00:04:28] Crazy people. 

Sarah [00:04:29] All right. Up next, we got some headlines to tackle. We've got another surge in COVID cases. We know that even though a lot of people are testing at home and they shut down the testing sites, Leslie, you were like, no one wants to talk about COVID still. And then it became very relevant to our conversation today. Would you like to tell the people why? 

Leslie [00:04:59] We got the rona. We got it here at our house. This is the first time. There are five of us in our house, none of us have tested positive in two years of COVID. And we got it starting last week with my youngest, who was exposed in his classroom. And it has caught us all except for my oldest son. 

Sarah [00:05:25] So that means Taylor has now tested positive? 

Leslie [00:05:28] So that means all of us including Taylor. 

Sarah [00:05:29] He was testing negative in just a very aggressive way while everyone else was sick. 

Leslie [00:05:35] Yeah. 

Sarah [00:05:35] I don't love that. I mean, I don't want him to get COVID. And, also, it just felt a little rude. So  now everybody but Calvin, who had the booster probably latest, right? 

Leslie [00:05:46] Yeah. He had just gotten his booster last month in March. I think. So, yeah, Taylor got the fever last night. He did tell me that he was going to hack it. And he drank so much fluid that he was going to just burn through it in the night. And he told me he was going to go running this morning. 

Sarah [00:06:04] No. How'd that turn out? 

Leslie [00:06:07] He's currently in bed. I don't know what my kids are doing also. So the kids are fine. It blew through them very quickly. Mine lingers. I have lost taste and smell, which is the thing I was most afraid of -- well, not most afraid of. I don't want to die. So second, maybe. So, yeah, we'll see. We're on our spring break right now, so we will remain here in isolation.  

Sarah [00:06:33] Well, I'm glad you're on your spring break. That makes it  just a smidge easier. I don't think you should be -- you know, I hate the taste and smell thing for you, but I don't think it's an indication that it's just all is lost. They think it's just a genetic marker, right? That some people get it just because of a genetic marker and not much else. That's the last thing I read about it. 

Leslie [00:06:51] Maybe. I mean, if you're telling me all is not lost, then immediately I'm like, well, all is lost. So that is just how I process. 

Sarah [00:07:02] Yeah, that sounds right. That sounds about right to me. I spent a long time over the last two years being like, Leslie, you do not have covered.  

Leslie [00:07:09] Literally, every month when I was PMSing, I thought I had Covid and then I didn't. For two years I thought every allergy, cold, stomach bug that we've gotten, I thought has been Covid and it never has. So it was kind of surprising to actually have it. But we knew there was a surge. The mask mandates were lifted in our kids classrooms, so I wasn't that surprised that it actually came for us. But in our pod and the people that we've seen, nobody had gotten it. So this is our first run through with it. 

Sarah [00:07:47] Wow. Well, I will say this. The positive news seems to be that even though there's a surge on the West Coast and the East Coast, D.C. is like riddled with it. They are saying that the hospitalizations and the death rates are not going up. That seems encouraging to me. 

Leslie [00:08:03] Very. 

Sarah [00:08:04] Does it feel encouraging to you even though you have Covid? 

Leslie [00:08:07] It is very encouraging. I am very grateful, of course, that we were vaccinated and boosted. So the things that I was very nervous about early Covid, I'm not as nervous about now. So I am very glad that it does appear that it's not increasing the rates of hospitalizations. I think part of it is that this last group to be getting it is more likely to be vaccinated as well, and maybe that might be a reason also that hospitalizations have not increased. I'm not sure, but it just seems like it's a surge that everybody's like, oh, well.  

Sarah [00:08:48] Yeah. I think there was even an Atlantic headline that was like, The First So What Surge. And it feels very individualized, right? Like so many of the testing sites have shut down and the government approach, the government management seems to be mostly over as far as I can tell. Even Fauci I think goes like, this is about individual choices and risk assessment. Now I'm like, okay, all right. I mean, it's better than China where they're like,  don't go to China right now because their protocols are arbitrary and you might get quarantined, oh, I don't know, away from your children. 

Leslie [00:09:17]  I didn't realize until we had this that a lot of the sites, I guess, that were federally run are now county run. So free testing, free PCR testing isn't available for people without insurance in a lot of places is what I'm understanding, which is now still being provided by our state and our county. But that does feel like something we should think about for the next surge that might be more serious, that we have to be able to test people without them taking out a huge financial cost. I mean, not even everyone can afford these at home tests. And they were free. We got how many from the government? 

Sarah [00:10:01] Four. Yeah, that's not going to last.

Leslie [00:10:03] For a family of five. 

Sarah [00:10:04] Yeah. 

Leslie [00:10:06] So we still need to be providing these preventative and treatment and these sorts of avenues for people to be able to know that they're positive so that they can isolate and not spread it continually around the community. Because even if I'm not in an 'Oh well' phase, like, I still didn't want to get it. I didn't want to pass it. I felt terrible that we did pass it to people who we love. For me, I'm not in the 'Oh well' phase. 

Sarah [00:10:37] Yeah, I hear that. All right. Shall we move on to some headlines around the world? Of course, we will begin in Ukraine. Now, Leslie, Beth and Erin Moon, who was with Beth last week while I was on spring break, they brought a lot of care to their conversation surrounding the war. I'm suggesting we bring that anger. How do you feel about that? 

Leslie [00:10:56] Here for it. 

Sarah [00:10:56] Okay, good. Here's where I'm really struggling right now. At the beginning of the invasion, there was a lot of conversation around like how to feel about the Russian people and the Russian soldiers in particular, that they're just following orders, they're abandoning their tanks, they're sabotaging. I'm really struggling with that narrative as they roll out from other parts of Ukraine, particularly around Kyiv. And we're just seeing horrors upon horrors. Like, there are missile strikes that are horrible, but there are also just individual soldier actions, executions, civilians in the street. And so I'm really struggling with that. This is all Putin and no one else's fault. Where are you at with that? 

Leslie [00:11:37] Yeah, it has been so difficult to process this news, and I definitely have vacillated between feeling very angry, feeling compassionate, feeling broken and sad. I think that I agree there was some very -- the reports was that Russian soldier who was captured who gave that press conference about really not understanding the position that he was put in, I think that that's true. But there are Russian soldiers who purposely targeted civilian homes, homes that had written people live here, children live here, and that made them targets for Russian attacks, assaults, rapes, abuses, war crimes. There is no rationale for that. No matter what you were asked to do, there is a humanity that would prevent you from making these actions. So I don't know if it's a cause of the brainwashing or if it's that they're frustrated that it's not going better and so that they're taking it out on the civilian population. But I would say I have landed on anger on that position as well. 

Sarah [00:12:45] It's not like I'm arguing there's something wrong with these soldiers by virtue of being Russian, right? It's not the ethnicity. I think, to me, it's indicative of what we've seen in other sort of unjust, unprovoked, deeply problematic wars, including with the behavior of our own soldiers during Vietnam, during the invasion of Iraq. I think when you put human beings in this situation, the hard truth is not everybody is going to react with humanity. That this is like a humanity eviscerating situation to put people in. And so that's what happens. It's like the the less just your side is, it's like you have to double down in this weird way. You know, it's not that I can't see the psychological underpinnings of what happened. And, again, I don't think it's some sort of like genetic condition. But I also think we have to be honest about it because I don't think it's fair to the Ukrainian people who have a lot of justified anger and visceral disgust with the Russian people to be like, well, it's just Putin, and you can't be mad at them. Like. Well, yeah, you can. And maybe you should. 

[00:13:54] And I'm not going to tell you to feel any differently. Like, that's not a cause for more violence. That's not a cause for like attacking Russian people wherever they live in your country. But I also think to try to ignore that they're not just being ordered around by Vladimir Putin, they're making really horrific choices to support what he started, including just the Russian people. I mean, he's really popular. Axios had some really good coverage where they said, the more horrific the allegations against Russia, including the apparent massacre of civilians in Bucha, the stronger the impulse to reject them as lies, says Grigory Yudin, a sociologist at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences. Otherwise, it's just impossible to live with, Yudin says, you need some storyline that tells you how things are fine. And it's like, I get that instinct, but also you have to be held responsible for following that storyline. 

Leslie [00:14:43] I agree. It's been really interesting to see the ways in which the Russian people have either sought out information. You know, you saw that the list of the most downloaded apps prior to the invasion and after. And they're all now VPNs to try and get information that isn't censored from outside of the country. But you've also heard reports from Ukrainian people speaking to their relatives who are in Russia, saying, "We're evacuating, they're bombing our apartment building," and they don't believe them. And that is such a difficult thing to process that your own family members wouldn't believe the reality of your situation, even hearing from you, seeing pictures on the ground. They think that it's a part of this brainwashing conspiracy led by the Ukrainian people, which is just very difficult. And at some point, it's hard to feel like they don't have more of a responsibility to believe the truth, to believe what they're seeing. And, again, with the soldiers, everyone has those choices to make. And no country who hasn't been involved in war is without blame in the regard that sometimes you put soldiers in there and they make choices that are horrific and that's true of every country. It is not specific to Russia. That's what happens during war. And it is, I think, valid to feel a lot of -- I think that the Ukrainians who are feeling anger at the Russian soldiers, not just that Vladimir Putin makes sense.  

Sarah [00:16:22] You know, it's hard. Russia is a big country. They don't all feel the same way. And that reaction to find a conspiratorial storyline that doesn't make you have to face the horror is happening here. Man, I sat next to somebody at the Phenix airport and I could hear him. Like, his back was to my back and I could hear him blubbering on to his wife about, well, look, they're posing with these body bags. But why? But why would they be doing that? I mean, ask yourself. And he was, like, thumbing through all these YouTube conspiracy, the Ukrainians are posing. I deserve some sort of ribbon for not being like, "Sir. Sir, excuse me very much!" But it's like, although I'm not making that choice, I'm not confused by the choice to find a conspiracy that doesn't half make you face the execution of civilians and bodies in the street!  You know, it's a way the brain tries to handle things. And that's not to say I felt empathy for that man in the airport, I felt a lot of rage. And my husband was like, "Don't you dare say anything. We are in an airport. People act crazy already. God knows how he'll react." And I was like, okay, okay, all right. You're right.  And his wife, she seemed so uninterested in his like ramblings, that that was the only part that sort of kept me calm. 

Leslie [00:17:50] I can imagine. It is ripe for conspiracies because I love studying conspiracy theories, and they are very often related to unexplainable or horrific events. There are so many conspiracy theories that crop up at times when we don't have an explanation for what we're seeing because it's just bad, but we don't want to admit that something can just be senseless and horrible. 

Sarah [00:18:19] Chaos. 

Leslie [00:18:19] Yeah, chaos. We want a rationale to it. That's how we order our thinking. And so I think that's true too. The more horrific images that come out of Ukraine, the less likely it is that people who don't want to believe it will believe it because it's it's so much harder to process that it can really be that bad. So it's easier to believe that it's fake. 

Sarah [00:18:42] And I think what's so hard is it feels like the choices we're making are either conspiracy theories or disengagement, because, I mean, I struggle. This is my job. What am I supposed to say? What can I do? What options do I have before me as an engaged, thoughtful human who believes myself to be ethical as the attacks against civilians just grow and grow and grow? I can give money. I do. I can  pay attention and keep the attention on Ukraine. I do as best I can, but  the options are not great. The options before us are not great. 

Leslie [00:19:17] No. And I'm sure that there are a lot of listeners, a lot of people who saw that little baby with her contact information written on her back that said, I got to take a break from this. I literally cannot go about my day if I see that picture one more time or think about the ramifications of that mother in that position. That's where I was. I was like, I have to step back from this because it's so overwhelming. So, yeah, you have to disengage. I mean, don't have to disengage, but I think that's the response to a lot of people to see these. We have so many images and videos in real time of what's happening there, that it's hard to not look away and it's hard to continue to watch.  

Sarah [00:20:03] And it's just sort of ever present in a way that's difficult. You know, we're traveling around the state of Utah. We're having these amazing moments as a family. And I think, well, to not do this does not decrease their suffering. But it feels gross to think about it and use it as a tool to feel more grateful. That feels gross too. 

Leslie [00:20:26] Right. 

Sarah [00:20:26] The options suck. The emotional options suck. The physical options suck. Like, it's shitty. It's just shitty for them. It's shitty for the Russians. It's shitty for the whole world. It's going to increase hunger, it's going to increase sort of the political instability. We see a little bit of that in France with the election, with Le Pen surging, this populist candidate who's pointing out all the ways that the cost of living is increasing. It's just is a hard time to be a human, no matter where you live. 

Leslie [00:21:01] That's right. And we're going to feel it here, and I know people realize that. But with the Russian defaulting on their loans, you know, I was reading about that this morning as well, that there are going to be financial consequences that we feel here. And it's going to be frustrating. But that sometimes happens. When you have a bad actor on the world stage, the repercussions of that are tremendous and we'll feel it here emotionally, financially. It's just really is all encompassing and it's hard to focus on anything else. 

Sarah [00:21:39] Well, and I think that's the only sort of encouraging action that I feel like this is something I can do because my fate as a citizen, as a global citizen is most closely tied up with the people of Ukraine through the global economy. We don't share a continent. We don't share a border. And so that's like a very tangible way. Our fates are tied up. So the very least I can do is just pay more and communicate in as many ways to my legislators, to the people I'm in community with that this is a price I'm willing to pay. And this is the very least I can do for these people and that baby, right? It's just pay more and suck it up and realize that we're not in control and the populism is not the answer. As we dearly, dearly, pray that the people of France make the same calculus and choice as they head into that runoff. And I think the people of the world, to me, that's what we can do, is just say we will pay more. It is the absolute least we can do. And that might stretch on for a while and that's okay. Because that sucks, but the war stretching out has much greater consequences than how it's going to hit our pocketbook here in the United States. Now, it's all heavy, there's a lot of cost. Should we before we leave the segment, pivot and just talk about Elon Musk? Seems like a nice, easy person to beat up on. He can take it. He's got plenty of money. 

Leslie [00:23:06] The most money. He has the most money. 

Sarah [00:23:08]  He has the most money. Do you want to talk about Elon Musk and Twitter just real quickly? 

Leslie [00:23:14] Of course. 

Sarah [00:23:16] Okay. Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. In case you hadn't heard, he bought a nine point two percent stake in Twitter. I'm not even sure how that happened. So he just buys enough stock that it's the nine point two percent stake? 

Leslie [00:23:29] Correct. He didn't want to round down or up to make it an even number. Of course, not.

Sarah [00:23:32] No. He was like, what will give me the largest sharehold, not a percentage point more. 

Leslie [00:23:36]  Yeah. 

Sarah [00:23:37] And then I couldn't tell if just the large share triggered the -- like, it's some sort of automatic invitation to the board of directors or if they just thought that was, like, this is what he wants. He had lots of big ideas, lots of big critiques, lots of big ideas that, of course, he shared. 

Leslie [00:23:55] It seemed like that's what he wanted and they offered it to him. Then he was like, JK.

Sarah [00:24:00] Yeah, JK don't want to. Well, I read that there has been regulations about how much stock he could own, so I don't know if he would have had to sell in order to get on the board.I think it was like, well, you know once you're on the board, you are a fiduciary duty to Twitter. And he was like, oh, well, I was just going to come in and create chaos. This seems less fun, so maybe not. But it's very close lipped. They're not really saying that much. 

Leslie [00:24:26] Yeah, the statement was very funny. It was like, here's what we can tell you about what happened. I was like, I'd love to know what you can't tell me. 

Sarah [00:24:33]  Can you share anything else? Where are DC anonymous sources? People in DC who be like, I can tell you all kinds of thing, just put my name on it. Where are the people at Twitter? Where are anonymous sources at Twitter? That's what I mean. 

Leslie [00:24:44] That's right. The doom war of Twitter. 

Sarah [00:24:48] He is so fascinating. I read a profile of -- is it Grimes? Is that his girlfriend's name? 

Leslie [00:24:54] Yes. On again, off again? 

Sarah [00:24:56] Well, did you know they had another secret baby? 

Leslie [00:24:58] Yes. 

Sarah [00:24:59] Yeah, it revealed in this Vanity Fair profile. And I was like --

Leslie [00:25:03] Accidentally revealed. 

Sarah [00:25:04] Accidentally because the baby started crying. 

Leslie [00:25:07] Yeah. Classic. You can't hide a baby. Can't hide one.

Sarah [00:25:09] No, they will not be hidden. And so much intergalactic artificial intelligence  just out there conversations between the two of them and how they connected. I just have a lot of trouble wraping my brain around Elon Musk and his life and his choices most of the time. 

Leslie [00:25:32] So many choices. The thing is, it's just sometimes people are very smart in certain areas.  And he seems very smart maybe making spaceships. That seems to be going pretty well for him, right? He can make them go up and he can make them come back down and land on those little pads. I couldn't do that.

Sarah [00:25:54] I definitely couldn't do that.  

Leslie [00:25:57] But it doesn't necessarily mean that that would translate well to knowing how to set policy for a tech company platform. The things that he has tweeted about, like about how the top followers aren't like tweeting as much and so Twitter must be dead. And it's like, my man, what are you talking about? That's not how Twitter works, and that makes me really nervous that you don't understand that or you want it to be something different.  I just don't know what his play is really with Twitter. He seems like he contemplated starting a competitor for Twitter. And maybe somebody from Twitter was like, well, why don't you just buy more stock and help us from the inside? They probably didn't say that, but maybe someone suggested that, and he was like, that's a good idea. But what is his big plan, like just an edit button? 

Sarah [00:26:55] Well, and here's the thing. Somebody like Elon Musk, who's so innovative, it's just hard to know when innovation, like you said, that innovative thinking is applicable and when it is problematic. I worry that there's not enough people in Elon Musk's life telling him the truth, because there probably were people telling him that, like, this isn't going to work with Tesla. This isn't going to work with the rocket ships. And now he's decided, well, I'm always right. And any time anybody tells me the truth, it feels like there becomes this sort of aura of like the way I think is always correct. And that concerns me a little bit. Listen, I've watched three seasons of succession. That's problematic. Any time you're just really wealthy that there's not enough people telling you the truth because they're worried you'll cut them off. 

Leslie [00:27:45] I mean, we know he doesn't have people around him telling him the truth. Otherwise, those wouldn't be his baby names. 

Sarah [00:27:50] Right. Exactly. 

Leslie [00:27:52] So those would maybe be middle names, you know, maybe you'd go with a classic as the first name. Something that people can pronounce. 

Sarah [00:27:59] I don't need a classic, just something pronouncable. 

Leslie [00:28:00] Just something people can pronounce. 

Sarah [00:28:01] Right.  

Leslie [00:28:02] But that's how you know. People who are so outside of reality, everyone around them is, like, wow, so inventive. So creative. People are going to love it. 

Sarah [00:28:12] How many Greggs does Elon Musk have? 

Leslie [00:28:14] So many cousin Greggs. 

Sarah [00:28:14] So many cousin Greggs, got to hope so. Okay. Well, let's stop beating up on Ellen for now, because it doesn't matter how much we beat up on him, he's still going to be the richest man in the world. 

Leslie [00:28:25] If he sends me a couple of million dollars, I'll say something nice about him. 

Sarah [00:28:27] That's right on Twitter. On Twitter.

Leslie [00:28:31] On twitter. That offer stands. 

Sarah [00:28:32] There we go. That's agreed. All right. Next up, Beth sat down for an incredible conversation with Emily Ho that I know everyone is going to enjoy. 

Beth [00:28:55] I'm so excited to be here with Emily Ho, and I'm going to let you introduce yourself, but first, I just have to say that I feel like I'm talking to a genuine internet celebrity. So it's astonishing to me if people are listening and don't know who you are because I have followed you for a long time and I'm delighted that you're here and that you're a fellow Kentuckian. But other than that, why don't you give your own introduction? 

Emily Ho [00:29:15] Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. I have your voice in my head often when I'm trying to talk through things and I'm like, I wish I could just channel the voice of Beth and stay calm and reasonable and get things out how she talks. So I'm very excited to be here. Thank you. 

Beth [00:29:30] Thank you. 

Emily Ho [00:29:30] Yeah. My name is Emily Ho, I have a Plus-Size fashion lifestyle ish blog called Authentically Emmy that I started 12 years ago as a weight loss blog, which is ironic because now I am firmly anti diet culture, pro body neutrality, pro joyful movement. Whereas, in the beginning it was all about trying to figure out how to move my body in a way that felt comfortable and a way to shed some weight. And that ended up being through public accountability. I thought if I could do the thing that the biggest loser does, where someone has to watch them and do all the training, then somehow that external eyes on me will help reduce my size. Spoiler, it led to a lot of injury and I didn't.. But throughout that, I started sharing photos of random outfits taken on a little clicky digital camera that I would set up on a shelf in my office. And people started asking a lot more about clothes, and then I realized, oh wait, people have not spent the amount of time I have trying to find pieces that will fit my body, so maybe I can share some of that. 

[00:30:42] And so throughout the past 12 years I've been sharing plus size fashion, specifically extended plus size fashion. So that things that you actually can't usually find in a Plus-Size store. So forget regular stores, plus-size stores, and then you have extended plus size. And I can go into  the different variables of what those are later. But really just spending time trying to find outfits for me that express my personality and the way I want to appear in the world, it's a chore to try to do that and find these pieces. So I just try to share things that I find and fill some gaps as far as people's knowledge and where they can access these styles. And also really trying to push companies to expand their sizing and also rethink the way that they are talking about size inclusivity, is that actually inclusive? And the majority of the time, it's not. 

Beth [00:31:34] So let's do some terms as we get into it, because you talked about joyful movement. Can you talk about what that means? 

Emily Ho [00:31:42] Yeah, joyful movement it's another way that people are talking about exercise, and I have a long, sordid history with exercise, and a lot of it comes in the form of punishment. And so in trying to reevaluate how do you think about movement and your body, which most people don't hate exercise, they don't hate moving their bodies. They don't have anything against wanting to be more flexible or strong or have more endurance. But it comes so much of it is ingrained in us that it is a punishment that it is an all or nothing situation. You have to do these things. You have to do them in this order and you have to do them for this long amount of time and if you miss one, you're a failure. And so it really takes away the pressure of the all or nothing. And it is about finding ways to move your body that you genuinely enjoy. Some people really have a problem with the term joyful because they're like, well, I'm not always going to be happy to work out. Well, it doesn't mean that. 

[00:32:40] And if you want to say, you know, neutral movement or whatever term works for you. But it really is about removing the pressure of what I should be doing to what my body wants to do. And that's been a huge shift in the way that it's easier to want to go and move my body if there's not that negative pull and resistance that's tied to it. So finding an activity I love and then being able to go and do it whenever I want to do it, and if I don't want to do it my body doesn't feel like it, it's no big deal. So I find ways to listen to my body and move in a way that feels good. And it's still exercise. It's just framing it without the form of punishment or the shoulds. 

Beth [00:33:24] Which is surprisingly radical, right? I remember when I started teaching yoga, I was in a class and I was talking about getting into a shape gently. And I said, if you start to feel pinching, burning, pulling, we want to come out because we're here to care for our bodies and to work with them instead of against them. And after class, a woman came up to me who had been a very serious dancer for much of her life. And she said, "I cannot tell you what a shape shifting  concept it is to think about working with your body instead of against it. And just that Reframe is is hugely powerful. Okay, I want to ask you about body neutrality as opposed to body positivity. 

Emily Ho [00:34:09]  So a lot of people they take issue with body positivity because it's the same thing as a joyful movement. It sounds too good to be true. Like, I have to be positive about my body at all times. That feels really unattainable to a lot of people. On the flip side, we're also having a lot of co-opting of the body positivity movement by smaller bodies when really body positivity was started as a sociopolitical movement inspired by civil rights, by activists who were trying to end discrimination. So it wasn't about I feel good about my body or I look in a mirror and don't hate myself. It really was rooted in how do we change in systems that block off accessibility to fat people? And because it's shifted so much, I don't know that there is one definition of body positivity anymore. So my personal journey in this is that it's moved more to body neutrality, which means my body is it just exists. It is a vessel. It doesn't have to be good. It doesn't have to be bad. It is something that takes me from one place in the world to another. It helps me fulfill the things that I need to fulfill as a human. And it's just a body. 

[00:35:24] There is no moral attachment or emotion that needs to sit within my brain and my body. My body just is. And so that, I think, takes a little bit of pressure off from the people who are just like, I can't be positive all the time. That's not me. And also just accepts that not everybody will feel a certain way good or bad. They don't have to feel good about the body, the body just exists. And so that's why I think neutrality feels a little bit more realistic for people to reach you. But if body positivity is something that you identify with, then that's great too. There are certain elements of that that I'm like, yeah, but it's lost a lot of the political meaning and I guess momentum as far as pushing to end fat discrimination and making places more accessible. And that's something that I'm really aligned to. It's not just, oh, what does my body look like today? Oh, I'm cute. 

Beth [00:36:21] How do you think about that neutrality idea in a culture where speaking about being fat, as though it is always a detriment to one's health is very acceptable. And I'm thinking especially about the last couple of years with Covid and how commonplace it is to just talk about necessarily obesity is a risk factor. I would love to hear you kind of reflect on the way that this conversation has happened. It seems like we've both had a lot of momentum around stop discriminating against fat people. Let's do health at any size. Let's do fashion at every size and at the same time. The conversation continues to be very one note about the health piece, right? 

Emily Ho [00:37:09] And I think in some ways, Covid has almost made it more socially acceptable to then bring in the health aspect and how we talk about health and fat bodies than, look, you're a detriment to society, which honestly has been the talking point for anti -- you know, her fat discrimination throughout the years is, oh, your body costs more to our health care system. Oh, your body -- you know, you're just going to kill over and die. And it's like, you don't know anything about me. You don't know anything about my health markers. It's not your place to sit there and say this. I would never say that to someone with a chronic health condition like cancer. I wouldn't say, "Oh, no. Well, you have cancer, you're not healthy." Like, it's putting a lot of blame and a lot of responsibility on the person. And then we get into body autonomy and people who are like, well, you're fat, just lose weight. 

[00:38:04] That very black and white thinking and the way that the diet industry and culture has really put the war on obesity, that horrible term that is vilified fat as the worst thing that you can be, it's I think Covid has really unfortunately shifted a lot of that talk back to the acceptability piece because they're saying, "Oh, well, this is a public health issue. Covid"  And so obviously you're fat is a risk factor and you're going to die. And I took some of that. I had Covid in 2020 around Thanksgiving, and I took so much of that in and I was like, I'm fat, and then I'm just going to die. Obviously, I'm here and I'm fine. But, yeah, it's just a long, sordid history, and I don't feel really like we're in any better situation now. I think some people are more thoughtful in how they might phrase certain things. Like, oh, I just want everybody to be healthy. But there's always that biting undercurrent of okay, but how be it to you? Maybe you don't know me.  

Beth [00:39:11] I'm glad you said that about internalizing some of it around Covid. I had Covid in January and it was a mild case. I mean, it was not fun and I don't recommend it, but I went through it just fine. I do think that the hardest piece to kind of get out of for me is this feeling that like something must be lurking in my body because I'm fat. I must have had some kind of experience that I don't know about yet. And when is it going to come up and get me? And I do think it's just because of the way the conversation has unfolded. And it's really frustratingly unnecessary at a time when we have plenty of things to worry about. They just didn't need another one. 

Emily Ho [00:39:50] Yeah.  I mean, I try not to. I try to be very conscious of these feelings. But it always put back in there like, oh, the other shoe is going to drop, something's going to show up in my body that has not been seen before, and I will all of a sudden become a casualty just like everybody else.  All the fat people, because we all must have just died of fatness, right? Not of any other condition. And it sticks in your mind. And it's really difficult every time you hear something with fatness related to it. You know, even just looking at Twitter people talking about 50 Cent and the Super Bowl and talking about he has a larger body now and all of the jokes. And I'm like, 50 Cent is never going to hear you complain about his size, but all of your fat friends will. So every time those things pop up, it's like something bubbles to the surface for a second and then you have to suppress it. Because in the truth of the matter is, first of all, we don't know health to anybody. That's not a moral obligation that an individual owes to society. But you can't look at my health markers and see what my doctors see is or what whoever sees, so, yeah, 

Beth [00:41:11] Well, talk with us about that access piece around fashion. So when we think about discrimination against fat people, which I know is a concept that a lot of folks just are not oriented to at all because you haven't struggled to put an airplane seatbelt on or to be on an amusement park ride safely. So if you've never thought about this at all, take us through that experience, especially as it relates to fashion. I think when you said it's a chore, everything inside me was like, yes, it's a chore to find something to wear. 

Emily Ho [00:41:44] Yeah. And as someone who has been branded like a plus sized fashion blogger, I sometimes get a little bit of resistance to that because I don't know that if what I have is fashion, because fashion is absolutely not accessible to me as an extended sized person. I don't know what my style would be if I had the breadth of access to styles of clothing that people in 'Straight sizes' so under a size 14 have. I can't say, "Oh, this is my style. This is the style based on what is available to me." And that is after hours of selecting. So 2018, there was a study of all the major multi-brand retailers like Macy's, Nordstrom's, all of these department store brands that sell different multiple brands. And of those, all the items in those stores, only 2.3% were plus size. And then of those, I don't know what tiny percentage of those are actually plus sized above a size 24, which is where standard plus size is stop. I am above that size. I'm a 28. So there really probably half a percent, if I'm really lucky. I've closed from all of those places that I can fit into. 

[00:43:06] I live in Louisville. It is a big city and I can't walk into more than three stores in my city that have my label on their clothing. If I look online, there's so many clothes. And of those places, there are maybe 10 that I can reliably order from. So the amount of time that I have, like, if I have an event coming up, I can't just run to a store and get something. I can't order something from a site that ships quickly. I might have to order custom sizing. I might have to wait for something to ship from overseas. That's a special order because they don't make the size constantly. So I spent four hours yesterday looking for outfits to wear to a conference, and I think I came away with maybe four outfits. And of those outfits, I usually end up returning, you know, 80 percent of what I order. I just said that was a big Anthropologie order. I love their stuff so much, but I ordered 10 pieces, which is really expensive. And then I ended up sending all but one back. 

[00:44:12] And so you have to learn about shipping and returns. You have to constantly go to the UPS store, you have to really understand your body and analyze the fabrics that everything is made of, the cut of everything, read all of the reviews and it's exhausting. It's not experiencing fashion in a way that a lot of people do, which is kind of fun and lighthearted. And then in the undercurrent of exploring all of these styles, not only are you trying to literally find something that fits your body, you also have all the old rules of fashion that are coming in. The ones that say fat people shouldn't wear stripes. Fat people, you know, shouldn't wear big prints or bold colors or anything that's tight around your belly. You can only wear hourglass shaped things. You need to belt your ways to cinch it in. You need to minimize, you know, how you visually appear to the world. But all of that goes into trying to shop for extended plus-size fashion. 

Beth [00:45:11] Everything contained in the word flattering feels hard. 

Emily Ho [00:45:16] Yes. 

Beth [00:45:17] Diving into that world, what have you found that has changed positively and where are we still stuck? The extended size conversation really lands with me. I felt overjoyed when I got a Summersalt Catalog this year and saw some bodies that looked more like my body. But I also realized we're becoming more inclusive of the bottom tier of plus-sizes. So I would love to hear your reflections on that. 

Emily Ho [00:45:43] Yeah, I am happy. You know, for everybody who is under a size 20/22 they've gotten a lot more options. So you mentioned Summersalt and everyone's like, oh, Summersalt is inclusive. I'm like, they don't include me. You know, Anthropologie introduced plus-sizes two years ago, and they go up to a 26. That's a small 26, but it's a 26 and they're like, we're inclusive. I'm like, you don't fit me. I got pitched for four different brand deals in the past two months for clothes that literally don't fit me. I'm like, I can't represent your brand. You literally don't fit me. And then they're like, well, some of our styles are big. I'm like, why would I want to put myself in that box? But it is good that those opportunities are coming up because it does show there are brands that are trying. And I do think that it has become -- you know, you've seen even J.Crew has introduced plus sizes up to a 3x or 20 to 24. That's great. Athleta introduced plus sizes in nearly every single thing, and they put them in stores. That was revolutionary. I walked into a store and on the same table as my size 26, which is what I wear there, they had size zero. 

[00:46:54] And I'm shopping in the same store, same section of the store, same table in a place that I never thought I would be able to do that. And it was honestly strange because I was like, where's my department? Where's my corner of the store? And so there have absolutely been great moves, and I do think that it really moves the needle. I feel like when you have conventionally thin, attractive people talking about the importance of this. Like Jameela Jamil, her podcast has been good to open up the conversation to, you know, more people. The podcast maintenance space, which is amazing about exploring the history of fat biased and crazy diets that we've done in the history of the BMI. There are those that are getting more appreciation and a lot more attention. And so I think that is really helping spread the conversation. There's still so far to go, but definitely for those who are under 20 to 24, there has been a lot of growth. 

Beth [00:47:59] So Sarah would fire me from Pantsuit Politics if I didn't ask you about Peloton because I know that you are a devoted -- what is the word for it? What is the word for a person who loves Peloton? I don't know.  

Emily Ho [00:48:10]  I don't know. 

Beth [00:48:13] Anyway, I'd love to hear you talk about the experience of Peloton and in this sort of joyful movement framework and also inclusivity, because I have to tell you I get on most bikes and I'm very, very, uncomfortable. And I don't like to be uncomfortable. There's no joy in that for me, to be honest with you. 

Emily Ho [00:48:29] Don't blame you. Yeah, I bought a Peloton about a year and a half ago because I moved to Louisville, lost the comfort of my gym where I had finally learned that I can move my body there and not feel self-conscious. It's a very small space. When I moved here, I just lost my movement altogether because I also in the past have walked around my -- not my neighborhood I live in now, but other neighborhoods. And have been shouted out, thrown eggs at like just for walking, just for walking and doing the movement that people say that I should be doing as a fat person. So I was like, I don't feel in the right headspace to challenge myself to get out and walk, even though that's a very low likelihood anything would happen. It just didn't feel safe to me. So Peloton was a way for me to have something in my house that I could use whenever I wanted. And I thought it's going to turn into a coat hanger, but I have a 30 day return policy, so I'll just see. 

[00:49:29] Also, I am above the weight limit for Peleton. There's a weight limit, obviously, for any type of equipment, I'm over the weight limit. And, yes, I have a very large behind and fitting on a tiny little bike seat was a challenge. I didn't know that I could get over and it turns out your butt adjusts or you can buy a larger seat, you can adapt. But Peloton was a way for me to be able to access the fun content and also community I can ride with friends from across the country that I never thought I'd get to exercise with. So it's just been really, really, fun. I love working out to music, so it was like and I've done spinning before and I've enjoyed it. So I thought, oh, this is something I really like. I want to go do this. I would love to go do this. And so the Peloton just offered the accessibility of having it in my house, in a space where I can wear a sports bra and bike shorts and not feel a bit of shame about it or wondering what other people are thinking. Yeah. And I turn on my little disco light and turn the lights off and, you know, ride out. And it's been transformative. Not that Peloton is necessarily the most transformative thing ever, but the ability to have a safe space and access to not have any hurdles to getting to the equipment and constant new stuff that I can then work out with new content. I don't have to worry about repeating anything. It keeps it exciting. 

Beth [00:50:52] Are there any, as we wrap up here, tips that you want to leave the audience with for either finding that safe space or supporting people who haven't found that safe space? When you said people who think I ought to be exercising also keep me from exercising safely, that is very, very, striking. And I would love to kind of have a call to action wrapped around that. 

Emily Ho [00:51:19] I think it's difficult because those sorts of things strike so deep that it takes so long to come out of. You have to really fully understand that your body is as good just as it is. Your attempts to move are good just as they are. And so really thinking about it, it's what makes me excited to move. I ran a half marathon.  I hate running, but I thought that's what I had to do because that's what everybody was doing -- was running for movement. So I was, like, I definitely don't want to do running. What are the things I love? I love music. What can I do to move my body to music? Well, you know, jazzercise or other things in person? I don't feel safe doing that right now. Okay, what's another option? What can I do from home?  I can do exercise classes from home. I don't really love floor aerobics. 

[00:52:09] So, you know, just going through things that you like and that you enjoy and that you can easily access without having to drive a long way and then be faced with mental blocks.  I'm really trying to think of ways to make this better. I do think fighting health at every size, fitness, joyful movement groups on Facebook or following the hashtags on Instagram, you can see a much wider variety of bodies who are participating in movement. And that propels me. That makes me excited, like, oh my gosh, that person's doing it. Surely I can do it. Just little things like that make it normalized in your feed. Oh, yeah, there's somebody doing something that I want to do, and they look like me. It shouldn't be that revolutionary, but it's kind of the point that I love right now. 

Beth [00:53:02] It's just striking that there really aren't spaces, even as we've made a lot of progress here where things just feel like okay. I have put off going to see a doctor because I know that we're going to have a conversation about weight because we do every time I go. And the conversation is always like, I mean, your thyroid number seems fine and your diet is good and you're moving, like, I just don't understand. And I just want to say, like, can we please stop dwelling on this? Then if everything is okay why are we dwelling? 

Emily Ho [00:53:38] Yeah. I think also feeling like we have the power to decide who our providers are, that's one thing that I really wish I could figure out how to do. But every time I share about going to the doctor, people are like, oh, I'm scared to go to the doctor. I'm like, listen, me too. My blood pressure skyrockets. 

Beth [00:53:56] Mine too. 

Emily Ho [00:53:56]  I get like flustered. My pulse goes up. It just makes everything worse. But I think knowing what you're there for, I mean, you can say, "I do not wish to be weighed. Is it medically necessary for my treatment today to be weighed?" Or turning around and not facing the scale, if that's something that really triggers you. And if a conversation about weight comes up, you know, is this thing that you're recommending me do to solve my earache? The same thing. Is this the same conversation you would have with a thin person? Because if my if my weight is not affecting this particular issue, can we move on past from that conversation? It's really difficult. During Covid I spilled a French press pot of coffee. I just poured the whole thing of boiling water in it. I started to press it down and it exploded all over my stomach. It was second degree burns. Huge. I mean, the size of a dinner plate across my stomach. And I refused to go to urgent treatment to get seen because I was like, I don't know who the doctor is. 

[00:55:03] I don't have trust with this doctor. I don't want them to see my stomach because that's just going to be another conversation. They can already see I'm fat, I definitely don't want them to see my stomach. So I put off treatment until finally I was like, oh, this is going to be a real bad scar. So then I was able to go to my normal doctor. But everything that is happening in the world and the message that we're getting, it's all pointing to people actively discouraging the things to seek out help when that's what they want you to be is healthy, right? But yet going to a doctor it feels like an overwhelming situation where you are just destined to fail. Going to a gym where you are trying to move your body is something that is subject to eyes and snickers. So it's difficult. 

Beth [00:55:51] Well, your work makes me feel less alone and a little bit braver and a lot more honest, and I am really grateful to you for that. So tell everyone where they can find everything that you are putting into the world. 

Emily Ho [00:56:06] Yeah. I really appreciate that. If I can do nothing else, speaking of the uncomfortable parts in helping other people recognize that they're not alone is my goal in life. So thank you. My blog is authenticallyemmie.com and you can find me there. All my socials links are there. Instagram is off me @authemmie. And you can send me DMs. Send me emails. I'm always online. Follow me on Peloton. If you're on there, I'll see you on the leaderboard. Authemmie. 

Beth [00:56:37] Thank you so much. 

Emily Ho [00:56:38] Thank you. 

Sarah [00:56:50] Thank you, Emily. Again, Emily will be taking over our Instagram account tomorrow, Wednesday, April 13th, answering your questions, showing off her fashion and being her whole beautiful self. We are so grateful to her for sharing herself with us, and you can find links to Emily's website and Instagram account on our website and see her take over tomorrow on Instagram from Pantsuit Politics. Okay, Leslie, back to politics. We're going to talk about The Bachelor and Bachelorette. Bachelor Nation. What's the all encompassing term we're supposed to use? 

Leslie [00:57:18] Bachelor Nation. 

Sarah [00:57:19] Bachelor Nation. How long have you been watching The Bachelor? 

Leslie [00:57:24] I have no idea. I saw that question and I was like, I literally cannot remember when I've watched it. The thing is, when I'm not actively watching it, it completely ceases to remain in my memory. 

Sarah [00:57:40] Okay, that's interesting. I like that. 

Leslie [00:57:43]  I hate it. I want to be clear. And when I'm not watching it, I was like, I'll never watch it again. And then in the new season starts and then I accidentally watch it. So I don't know how long I've been watcing it.  

Sarah [00:57:55] Many, many, years.

Leslie [00:57:57] Many years. Not from the beginning, though. I didn't see all the like -- how long has it been on? 20 something years. Yeah, no. 

Sarah [00:58:06] So I've only seen a single episode of The Bachelor at Beth's house when she hosted a Bachelor party. 

Leslie [00:58:12] Was it fun? 

Sarah [00:58:14]  Her neighbors were delightful and it was fun, but the show really grosses me out. I don't want to watch people tongue kiss on reality shows. It's really -- and it's aggressive.  

Leslie [00:58:25] It's so aggressive.

Sarah [00:58:26] Like, we watched the first episode and there was like an aggressive amount of tongue kissing. And in the same way that I've never seen an episode of Keeping Up With the Kardashians and read every long read about Kimmy and her sisters. Like, I understand the cultural import, I'm fascinated. We had a guest on who compared it to like a beauty pageant. It's like the sort of the new beauty pageant. You get to see people sort of trot out. I mean, with your viewership, let me just ask you personally, like in the beginning, were you ever watching it from like a romantic angle? 

Leslie [00:58:59] Absolutely not. Not one time.

Sarah [00:59:03] Never one time. 

Leslie [00:59:03] Oh, no. I liked the train wrecks. I liked watching it. I was never once thinking this seems like a good way for someone to find a meaningful relationship. Am invested. 

Sarah [00:59:19] What were the red flags, the cameras maybe? 

Leslie [00:59:21] Maybe cameras. 

Sarah [00:59:23] Now, I have seen the show based on The Bachelor. What was that show called? It was so good. I watched the first season about the producer --. 

Leslie [00:59:31]  Unreal. 

Sarah [00:59:32] Yeah, that show was good. I like that show. I thought that was interesting. So that part, you know, sort of the cultural import, the sort of management, strategy, approach of the producers is sort of interesting to me. But as an outsider, even I have perceived a shift. And let's say the last five years, there's been several sort of controversies, particularly surrounding race. They fired the main host guy. I don't know his name. 

Leslie [00:59:58] Chris Harrison. 

Sarah [00:59:59] That guy fired him. I knew that. 

Leslie [01:00:02] Replaced him with just another plain dude. Plain dude got not a lot to offer. 

Sarah [01:00:11] Well, there was the two girls at first, though, right? That episode I watched, there was two women hosting. 

Leslie [01:00:15] Oh, you do watch that one? Yeah. Kaitlin and Tayshia, whom I liked both of them so much in their seasons as the Bachelorettes. They were both former Bachelorettes. 

Sarah [01:00:25] It also feels like people are like not getting engaged anymore. Do we not do that anymore? 

Leslie [01:00:31] So it's so interesting. I do think there has been a shift, and I read something about how there was this kind of peak time where if you were on The Bachelorette, it meant access to the Instagram Fortune pipeline. So if you were on it, you could become an influencer and make money, monetize your time on the show. And that seems to have dried up. I will say it seems like the the market is saturated with influencers. And people are not watching it enough or it's not breaking through enough to be relevant. And because it is such a dated concept, it's such an odd, antiquated thing where it pretends to take this like romantic fairy tale version of romance where you,date people in these elegant gowns and you give them roses or whatever. And then you go have sex in these fancy suites, and then you talk about it the next day as if, oh, we had this wonderful, intimate time together without the cameras. And it's like but the culture has moved past that. That is not what we're doing. 

[01:01:42] Especially young people, and I am not, to be clear.  Tik Tok has made me very aware. I'm not a young person. So these people are not cutesy about having sexual relationships, have dating people in these ways. You know, so it's an unusual format, and there is still interesting things that happen on the show that are kind of unique. But it does feel like a dated premise and no longer people are making their money from it. So I'm not sure how much longer it will be around. I thought when they brought in the female hosts that that would be an interesting direction to take it, and then they fired them and brought back. So The Bachelor Nation, I'll tell you is really divided. And you saw that when the race stuff began to happen. So you would know. Just ask anyone who watches The Bachelor, do they or do they not like Rachel Lindsay? That's the litmus test for people who watch the show. 

Sarah [01:02:47] Is that the girl that Chris Harrison defended? 

Leslie [01:02:49] No.  Rachel Lindsay was the first black bachelorette. She's the one he was on her podcast basically telling her, talking over her and being very defensive about the race stuff that was on the current season of the show. So Rachel Lindsay was the first black bachelorette. If you like Rachel Lindsay and you like her, how she has been outspoken about the problems with it and how they should change and adapt and become more modern, then you are my type of viewer. You're the type of viewer who has watched the show, is ready for it to change and evolve. And if you do not like Rachel Lindsay and are very defensive of maybe Chris Harrison, maybe not, but just in general, I think that speaks more to the people who are either watching the show because they do enjoy the love story or they just want it to remain what it has been because it's comforting. And that's okay too. But that's sort of the divide in it. So you'll see that in comment sections and in responses to different leads orpeople on the show? That's at least my version. That's what I think there's a dividing line between the people who want the show to continue as is or change and adapt and become something a little bit different, a little updated. 

Sarah [01:04:14] Well, here's the thing too. To me, what's so interesting, probably Covid accelerated the Bachelor Nation. Either decline evolution, just like it accelerated everything else. But, to me, it's so interesting that the race stuff, you know, which we all kind of knew, it's a television show. You could visibly see the racial dynamics or racial problems of the show, like even if you were just catching commercials. But it seems to me that what really has undercut the foundation is like that that lack of authenticity, which it's not like people to know. But when you're seeing them, they can't even translate it into influence. And, look, you can make the case is not just about the Bachelor nation's decline, but about Instagram's decline, right? That that's not the social media content people want anymore. This highly filtered, highly, you know, sort of fantasy driven Instagrammable content like even I know you don't want to, but I'm trying to get you on Be Real. This really cool new social network that's all built around like everybody posts at the same time. We're not filtering. We're not picking the prettiest image. It takes a picture with the front camera and the back camera, and you just see where everybody's at that moment, which I think is really cool. 

Leslie [01:05:29] And how did you try and sell it to me? You said, here's what will happen. You'll get an alert, then you'll open your phone and it will turn on your front facing camera. Again, I am a lady in my 40s. The thought of having my front facing camera on me at some point during the day that is nightmare fuel. That is not fun. 

Sarah [01:05:48] It's what I tell you. It's fun. But, again, that's the argument with Snapchat. That's the argument with TikTok and the Be Real. All these other things is that people don't want that highly edited, highly filtered, you know, less than authentic. 

Leslie [01:06:05] I think that's probably true for a lot of reality shows as well. We know they're scripted, so but then we get mad because you're just like, well, this is the plotline they gave us. And it's like, yeah, but we hate that. And so there was a really interesting thing that did happen, which I think I told you. There's a couple of interesting things. One, someone paid a coach to tell them how to win The Bachelor, and we still don't know who that person was on this last season. 

Sarah [01:06:33] Because the coach went on a podcast and talked about that. Like, this is what I'm doing, right? 

Leslie [01:06:36] The coach is a podcast host, and they revealed that they were coaching someone on this last season. But we don't know who it was or how far they went on the show. 

Sarah [01:06:46] Probably not the first person to get coaching or have a coach, right? 

Leslie [01:06:49] No, I'm sure not. Well, yeah, because people know it's a game. People know it's a thing you can play up. But what happened a couple of years ago -- now, I don't remember. On Bachelor in Paradise, the one that happens in Mexico, the entire country turned on this couple because when you arrive on the beach and then people come down, you're supposed to just be open to dating, right? And so the allegation was there was a guy who was there who kind of pretended to date this one girl until the girl he was secretly dating arrived and then ditched that girl and went with the girl that he had already made a previous connection with outside of the show. And then they were caught on camera discussing how many Instagram followers they were going to get because of their time on the show or their exposure or whatever. And the way that people turned against them, it was so amazing. It was so fascinating. 

Sarah [01:07:49] Because they just said the quiet part out loud? 

Leslie [01:07:52] Exactly. Everyone knows that's what you're there for, but the absolute pearl clutching the gasps of the other contestants being like, oh, they said, they're here for Instagram followers. And you're not allowed to say that part out loud, right? You're not. And so it's this funny game that everybody is playing where you have to pretend like you're there for a reason other than why you're there. And but in that article that I was reading about how that pipeline has dried up, they were saying their suggestion was that maybe that will be good for the franchise if it goes back to people having to show up for the actual premise of the show and not be guaranteed the Instagram detox tea sponsorship. Then maybe it becomes interesting again, and maybe it will. 

Sarah [01:08:39] And is that true, though? Will it become interesting? Was it ever interesting because of that premise? I'm not so sure. 

Leslie [01:08:46] Oh, because of the premise of the show, it has been fascinating. There has been so much drama that is not manufactured because you have really, really, young and impressionable or drunk people making choices. And watching people make choices guaranteed going to be a good time. 

Sarah [01:09:13] That's true. That is true. That is a fair point. It is fascinating to watch people make choices. I agree with that. 

Leslie [01:09:20] And I will say there's something about it, right? There is something about reality TV show that people know it's junk food. It's comforting. It's interesting, but not heavy.  And I can't watch heavy things. So that's true. 

Sarah [01:09:33] Right. Fascinating, but not burdensome. 

Leslie [01:09:36] Yeah. And so I like to watch it. But there is a part of me that continues to watch The Bachelor I would say for a couple of reasons. One, because I love the Popcast recap and I want to see the outfits that they saw so that I can also understand their commentary on it. That's the main thing. It's really their fault. If they stopped, I would probably stop watching. 

Sarah [01:09:59] They should save people. 

Leslie [01:10:02] Yeah, they really should. This is all their fault. But, also, I'm nervous I would move to a different franchise. I would move to something else like Real Housewives.  I've never watched a single episode of The Real Housewives, and I am nervous that then I would fall into it and no one would ever see me again.  So it's nice because it kind of feeds that need that, like, it's kind of nice. I have one that I follow, but if I didn't what would happen to me? Where would I go?  I would say Below Deck is better, but I also have to try and limit my exposure to the Below Deck series. 

Sarah [01:10:43] I don't even know what Below Deck is. 

Leslie [01:10:45] Oh my god, it's so good. It's on yachts. It follows the crew of mega yachts 

Sarah [01:10:53] Oh, no. That I'm into. It's like Downton Abbey, but reality show. 

Leslie [01:10:57] Yes!  And so what I don't understand about that one is that the people up top, the people who are paying for the yacht agree to also be filmed. And they are so terrible. The people who are on there they are absolute monsters. 

Sarah [01:11:08] What do they care, Leslie? They own yachts like that. They don't care. Who cares? 

Leslie [01:11:11] They don't own them. They're renting them. These are poor, rich people. 

Sarah [01:11:15] Oh, okay. I want to watch this then. That, you've sold me. Well, I'll definitely follow Bellow Deck. Before we wrap up, so do you think Bachelor Nation has jumped the shark? Yes or no? 

Leslie [01:11:24] Hmm. Yes, I think the show is no longer what it was. I don't think it has the influence that it once had. I think it could be something interesting again in the future. It could adapt. It could change. I definitely think if it stopped, that would also be fine. Everyone will be fine, including me. I maybe even be better. I don't know. There's no way to know because they'll never stop. 

Sarah [01:11:53] I love it. I love it. Well, Leslie, thank you for filling, in co-hosting Pantsuit Politics today. It's been a delight. 

Leslie [01:12:01] Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been fun. 

Sarah [01:12:05] Everybody, please preorder our book. And also exciting news at the end of the show, you can also preorder the audio book now. Finally, woo-hoo. So make sure you can click the link in the show notes. Again, if you do so, you'll get access to our preorder bonus. I'll be back in your ears on Friday with my husband Nicholas. And until then, keep it nuanced ya'll 

Beth [01:12:33] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [01:12:38] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [01:12:44] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producer (Read their own names) [01:12:49] Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[01:13:07] The Kriebs, Lauri LaDow. Lilly McClure, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katie Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Valelli. Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whited. 

Beth [01:13:25] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.