Commemorating Pregnancy & Babies

We answer a question from Haley about potentially choosing home birth and how to deal with family visit during a pandemic. Then, we share commemorations from Kristen, Leighanna, Megan, and another listener about pregnancy choices and new babies.

Kristen's Website for Pregnancy Loss: Amos' Anchors

If you want to submit a commemoration or send a question to ask Sarah and Beth, please email hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com with "Commemoration" or "Ask Sarah and Beth" in the subject line.

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Transcript:

[00:00:00] Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Sarah

Beth: [00:00:05] and I'm Beth.

Sarah: [00:00:06] We host Pantsuit Politics, a podcast with a remarkable community of listeners

Beth: [00:00:10] Here on The Nuanced Life we come together every week to answer your questions and commemorate your milestones and hopes of bringing a little more grace to every asset.

Sarah: [00:00:18] Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Nuanced Life. We are so thrilled to be with you here today, where we are going to talk about all things, pregnancy and baby related. We're all in. I feel like we've had a lot of uterus heavy episodes of late, but I'm okay with that. It's one of my favorite topics. And so we're just going to go all the way in on today's episode.

Beth: [00:00:50] Let's start with Hayley. Haley is a fellow Kentuckian and she is pregnant and very excited about starting her second trimester. And we're so happy for you. [00:01:00] Haley. She has heard us mentioned home birth. Sarah has had two home births and we'd love to hear how you came to that decision.

She is a little bit overwhelmed as it can be by all the requirements for a home birth. And she's already kind of taking a minimal approach. She has a small home, she wants the minimum of necessary baby things, but she feels like when she asks for advice, people in her life are in a very different place than she is about the approach to this.

And so she would like your advice and secondarily Haley would like to talk communication with family members about how and when they can come visit the baby because of the pandemic.

Sarah: [00:01:40] Yes. I had two home births. My third home birth was prevented by a snow storm, or it would have been three home births. I decided on a home birth for a couple of reasons.

You know, I had my first son in 2009 and I don't think I had a fair mix of friends [00:02:00] that had already given birth, but a lot of them were older than me. I mean, I was pretty young. I was 28 and. I just felt like when people described their birth experiences, particular their first birth experiences, that it was like they had survived a trauma, like they'd lived through a war and I really didn't want my first sort of introduction to parenting experience as a mother to be traumatic. At the same time, a little, little film, little film you might've heard of called The Business of Being Born came out and was gaining in popularity. And I watched that film and it really confirmed a lot of things that I had been thinking about, but I don't know how much experience you had with a couple of our professors at Transy, but we actually had two professors that were teaching a lot about homebirth.

 Like I look back on it. I'm like, why was I learning about waterbirth in a [00:03:00] religion class? And I don't even really care. I'm so glad that happened. But they were teaching a lot about this. You know, I was a women's studies minor. And so I think that foundation had been laid at a time where the stakes were low for me to think about it.

I wasn't pregnant. I wasn't thinking about having kids in college, obviously. And so the watching these professors, I'm watching one of my professors experience with a pretty traumatic first birth and then a home birth, I think really sort of laid the groundwork. And then this film came along and gave me all the language and options that I'd been looking for around hospital birth versus home birth versus birthing center.

 I had a birthing center I was attending when I lived in Washington DC, but when I was six months pregnant, I moved back to my hometown of Paducah and there was no birthing center. And so I worked with a lay midwife who delivered my first two children and was just the most phenomenal caregiver, but we talk a lot about actually around COVID, but what I really believe in it's just it's risk assessment.

Right. And so. For a lot of different reasons. I had a nice low-risk birth. [00:04:00] I was healthy. I didn't have any complicating medical conditions. Neither did my baby. I had the time and resources to care and to pay the lay midwife. You know, there was a lot of things working in my favor down to sort of my physiology as my Mid wife said, I had a deep cistern.

 I'm not a tall person, but I have a torso, like a tall person, which is helpful when you're carrying big babies like I do. And so I just think a lot of things aligned in my favor, but I really did. I have to say fight for it. I think I fought my family. I fought my husband to a certain extent, although, you know, I'm eternally grateful.

Nicholas basically was like, well, you're as invested in this as I am. And if you feel like this is the right choice, then this is the right choice. And it, you know, it's, it's one of the. Best decisions I've ever made. It was. The exact experience I had hoped for the other day, Nicholas was doing the one chip challenge.

Have you seen this where it's like a tortilla chip with like every hot pepper known to man. And he was like, do you want to do it? I'm like, [00:05:00] no, I always say like this, this drive for physical endurance, like I delivered three, nine pound babies, not a single one of them with a drop of drugs, like I've done the physical endorsed thing.

And it was very rewarding but I have checked that off my list. It just, you know, it was really empowering. It was the introduction to parenting that I wanted it. It was hard. Absolutely. I learned a lot about myself. I use the lessons I learned in natural labor or think about those lessons at least once a week, if not daily.

And you know, it reformulated my. Relationship to my body and just lots and lots of things. I, you know, it was obviously a huge proponent, but I, with the recognition that it's just, you know, it worked for me. I don't think in any lots of people don't P you know, I don't feel safe in a hospital. That's probably one of the biggest reasons that I chose home birth, but lots of people only feel safe in a medical situation like that in a hospital.

And so obviously your calculus is going to be completely different than mine. And [00:06:00] so I just try to. Give lots of grace and say like, there were there's I could list 5,500 different aspects of this decision that were unique to me and everybody else's list is going to be unique to them. But I've, you know, I felt, especially with my first one, that there was just this, this fear narrative, this, you should be afraid of what could happen.

And I'm, I I'm like a horse was a bit when people talk to me like that, like I don't like trying to be scared into something and. I felt like there was a lot of scare tactics, especially the first time with like, well, you, you just don't have any idea what the pain is going to be like and what if something goes wrong.

And just a lot of like trying to scare me into what they thought was. Right. And I think that you see that you hear that a lot, especially as a first time mother with everything, from how you're going to deliver to whether you're going to breastfeed to how is your baby going to go to daycare, [00:07:00] to like, what kind of.

Swing, you're going to get, are you going to swaddle? There's just this undercurrent of. Well, you just don't know. And you know, I really resented that when I was pregnant with my first son. And I definitely understand where Katie's coming from, that you feel like people aren't really talking to you, they're talking at you when you're pregnant.

Um, and they're just, and that, you know, that still happens. I feel like I always joke, like, especially because I had a home birth, like I just say have a home birth and I. I bet I've heard five hundreds C-section stories because people hear I had a home birth and they launch into why they needed a C-section.

It's just like this, this knee-jerk reaction. And I understand, and I don't mind to hear the stories. I think birth is endlessly fascinating in all its forms, but I just think that there is a thing we do to pregnant people. We sort of preach at them instead of listening to them. And I think that's why often being pregnant can be a really lonely experience because you feel like people want to [00:08:00] control you, but nobody really wants to support you.

And I think that's, that's one of the most difficult parts of being pregnant.

Beth: [00:08:07] I can stay on the other side. Haley, as you think about your choices, I had two hospital births that I wanted to be home births. I prioritize my husband's comfort level over mine own. I do not think I would make the same decision today.

I think that would have been a different conversation in our house with the strength and confidence that motherhood has given me. I wanted all the things that make you want a home birth. So if you have that interest in not having medication where you can avoid it and not doing anything, um, medical to manage the pain, uh, you know, Sarah had to fight for all that in the home birth setting, I will tell you that you fight for it, tenfold in the hospital setting.

Because you're just in an environment where that's all the norm, right. Once you're able to make that turn the home birth, which does require an enormous fight, then you got a lot of things working in your favor and in the hospital, [00:09:00] everything is working against you on those fronts. And so while I had both my girls unmedicated.

I do feel like I went through a trauma and I did not feel safe in the hospital and I was not happy. I am so grateful that hospital interventions are available for people who prefer them and for people who genuinely need them. And that's a lot of people. And I understand that you don't always know, you can't know if you will need them.

And that's what my husband's thing was. We can't know if we will need them. And what if we do. I think that home birth has some good answers to those questions, but he, he didn't get there and lots of people won't get there. And I have tons. I have no judgment whatsoever, especially now five years removed from having to make any of these decisions on my own.

I have no judgment for how other people handle these matters. It is intensely personal. It depends so much on what you're looking for. What's important to you. Everybody just says, Oh, we just want the healthy baby, but like, That's that glosses over layers and layers and layers of things that are important [00:10:00] about this experience.

Sarah: [00:10:02] I really resent that phrase. Yeah. I really resent that

Beth: [00:10:05] phrase also in kind to both mothers and babies, because some babies will not be healthy and we want the best experience available for those babies and those families too. So there are so many problems there, but I would just say Haley being really clear and honest about what matters to you here is the best advice that we can give you.

Because there is a known effect that if these things are important, you will have to fight harder for them in the hospital setting and you won't be able to win every single one of those battles, probably in the hospital setting. I wasn't, and I whipped out I am a lawyer. Give me an advent against medical advice form in one of my births.

Um, it's just very challenging. I

Sarah: [00:10:45] also signed in against medical advice form and my hospital birth. I was only there for five hours. That's why I had to sign it because to get out of there something before, you know, if you have like burst enter to me, there's a little bit of that. That's like a no brainer.

That is the best of [00:11:00] all the worlds, especially like you don't even have to clean up the mess, which is definitely a downside of a home birth, but like the idea that you can get the. The sort of risky or scenarios, like you have options in a birth center. If you have a placental abruption or a prolapse corridor, all those things you learned about it in a home birth, that the situation has turned very serious.

And I was aware of all those, but you have that totally different setting where there's a different model of care, man birth. I wish we had birth centers in every County, in the United States of America.

Beth: [00:11:33] I totally agree with that. Okay. Let's talk about. Haley has had her birth. We hope it's been exactly what she is looking for.

And now she has the baby and we still have COVID lurking around.

Sarah: [00:11:47] Oh, I want to say one thing about the things. Here's all I would say. If you're getting pushback about things, every baby thing you bring into your house is a baby thing. You will have to figure out how to get out of your house. [00:12:00] Every single one of them down to every adorable little sock.

It is like my 11 years of parenting. Dealing with the stuff has been like a damn part-time job, like stuff I wanted and stuff I needed and stuff that made our jobs as parents easier. But it's just, you always, it's just a management. You have to manage every single bit of it. And the people who are just so generous and let's just get it.

Like, there just seems to be no recognition of like, yeah, but I won't have a baby forever. And then I'm going to have to figure out what to do with all this stuff.

Beth: [00:12:32] Yesterday. I was switching out some of Ellen's clothes for Jane's former clothes that fit Ellen. Now I'm so grateful that I don't have to buy a new wardrobe every season for Ellen.

And also I deeply regret how many clothes I've purchased for these children. I've purchased enough clothes for one child to clothe three children, at least. And now I am dealing with the fallout of that. Every time we have to switch something and then it's even worse when Ellen has grown out of it and we have to figure out [00:13:00] what is the least wasteful thing to do here.

So.

Sarah: [00:13:04] Well, you don't even get away from that. I took all hand me downs. I buy my kids almost no clothes, like no clothes, Christmas and Easter. That's a battle I purchase. And I get almost all hand me downs and it's still a full-time job, man. Cause I still have to move it around and store it and sort it. And like it's not even as simple as just putting it by age because the sizing's all wonky. Every kid shaped a little different. It's exhausting.

Beth: [00:13:27] I think you need a car seat, a bunch of diapers and wipes, a couple of onesies and a blanket. And you got it at the beginning.

Sarah: [00:13:36] I don't know. I think you got to have a swing. I really I'm deeply devoted

Beth: [00:13:40] to baby swings, CJ. He did her swing. So I'm kind of, I'm ambivalent about that swings.

Sarah: [00:13:45] All three of mine spent hours in there swaying. That's the only thing. Cause you just, sometimes you put them down. God bless you. Little newborns. I love you so much, but sometimes I need to put you down. I love a swing. Uh, but I think your list is pretty dang close, but I [00:14:00] do like, and it's so funny because it's like, I still feel this pull, like I was over at my friend's house who just had a newborn and there's all this new, exciting baby gear.

And I'm like, Oh, cause there's just the promise of like, they figured it out. Like they've solved it when really, you know, newborns just want to be held and nursed all the dang time. There's no product that's going to solve that. But like, Like the, have you seen breast pumps recently?

Beth: [00:14:25] There's so many better

Sarah: [00:14:27] on believable.

We just missed that and I'm kind of resenting it, but like, there's just all kinds of stuff that you're like, dang, this stuff just keeps getting better and better and better. I get the pull. I'm not

Beth: [00:14:38] well, okay. Let's talk about the pandemic babies here. Haley's got the minimum amount of stuff she needs and everybody wants to come see the baby.

My sister just went through this, which is not the same as me going through it. So I do not mean to say like, I know what to do, but I have talked with her about some of this. And her sense was people are welcome to [00:15:00] visit. Spread out from each other with masks on immediate hand-washing and no one may kiss the baby.

Those were her rules that she established. I don't know what roles I would have established. But I think it's really good that she established those rules before the baby arrived and communicated them before the baby arrived. And so we could all consistently say, these are the rules. When you leave that stuff up, it's a lot like the birth stuff.

Honestly, you got to make up your mind. Here's, what's important to me. And these are the Hills I will die on and tell everybody in advance. Cause once you get into this. Stress of the moment and your brain is exhausted and your body is exhausted and your hormones are all over the place and the baby needs all the things you cannot do this work then.

So I just think Haley, whatever your rules are, you got to decide them right now.

Sarah: [00:15:52] Well, can I add an addendum to that with some hot tips about the holidays? I always tell my friends who are newly pregnant. [00:16:00] Go ahead and make that call for what you want your Christmases to look like. Because so many of them make the mistake I did, which was continue to travel and then decide when my kids were like three and five I don't want to do this anymore.

When I, what I wish I had done is the second the baby, like when we got pregnant, I was like, now that we have kids, we will be staying home for the holidays and just stuck with it. Just pull that bandaid off when there's a baby and everybody's going to not be that mad at you. That's my other hot tip.

Beth: [00:16:26] I think that's good. I think those are very good.

all right, let's do some commemorations. We have lots of them. Let's talk about Kristin. Kristin is commemorating reaching a place of healing and peace after four pregnancy losses in 2018, she grieved the loss of her son, Amos Atlee at 18 weeks. That was the first loss she [00:17:00] experienced that came in the second trimester which was so incredibly painful.

 She has struggled with secondary infertility. She has lost two very good friends in the course of dealing with miscarriages appointments, medications, and procedures, and that second best friend just ghosted on her as she was dealing with all of this. And she did not understand why.

And she's so glad that she did not show up on that person's doorstep and insist on an answer. She said that nothing the friend could have said really would make a difference or change what had happened. And it would only make the friend feel better, not Kristin to understand what went down there. And she said that she still feels her stomach drop when she sees her minivan on the road nearby.

And she's pretty sure if she ran into her in public, she'd run the other direction, but she feels confident in the choice that she's made. And she feels confident that she has walked away from all those unanswered questions and hurt. She has since had another daughter Juniper who was born early [00:18:00] this year and she's built a website of grief resources for families who've experienced this pain.

We'll link that in the show notes, she runs a support group meeting for women who are pregnant and parenting after loss. She's working with grief coordinators at hospitals to make sure that women are leaving the hospital with good and supportive, accurate information.

She said, I'm proud of the work I've done for and with the loss community since losing Amos. And I know that had I not lost the friendships I did along the way, I wouldn't have been pushed to make sure that communities and support exists for women like me, who continue to parent children both on earth and beyond the veil.

So today I'd like to commemorate my strength in the face of pain and loss and my persistence to be a kinder and more loving person.

Sarah: [00:18:41] Wow. That is amazing. Really, really gets to me if for no other reason, then I have a son named Amos. It's not a particularly common name, but I've also experienced pregnancy loss in the second trimester.

And there is just a thing that happens where some people cannot, [00:19:00] cannot stay. They cannot witness your pain. They cannot stick with it. And it is, it feels like such a deep portrayal and it feels like. You're being blamed for something that's breaking your heart. And I think Kristen being able to transform that into something positive is incredible and what a gift to the people in the group and just all the people that love those people like that, the, the impact of something like that is so much bigger than just the people in the group.

Um, it's really, really touching also like the name Juniper. Good job.

Beth: [00:19:35] You know, lots of people dealing with health issues, mental health struggles. There are so many times when we hear from people who have had friends, who've, who've ghosted them in the midst of real struggle. And I think that's a compounding grief.

I, I. I also think that sometimes we have to trust that people who have distanced in that way would have caused [00:20:00] more damage if they had hung around because of their inability to deal with those moments that doesn't make it better. But I think it's often true. And I'm so sorry that Kristen, you experienced all those losses, all that heart hardship.

I know that when you are dealing with fertility issues and pregnancy losses, it is. All consuming on so many levels. And I'm glad that you have a support system that you trust and that you've resolved to create that support system for other people. That's a really beautiful way to turn your loss into something that will endure.

Sarah: [00:20:35] We also received a commemoration from Leanna. She shared that her brother and his girlfriend welcomed their first baby, a girl named Lily and Lily can mean rebirth. She said her birth on September 4th, came on the 10th anniversary of the day her brother felt like his life wasn't worth living and tried to die by suicide.

The year was 2010 was the worst of her life for many reasons. But she's watching her only [00:21:00] sibling battle his demons was gut-wrenching. And so today her family gets to celebrate him and his new baby and see that even in our darkest moments, there will be beauty in the future. I think this is so incredibly beautiful.

It reminds me of something. Reverend Dr. Alexia Salvatierra said on our ally tour, which is that baby held babies, hold spiritual power. I keep thinking about it. That is so true. And to think of. This special baby marking this moment. Um, for her family, I think really embodies that. There's just, I think there's nothing like watching someone come through something incredibly difficult and see and hold, um, a literal new beginning in their arms.

Beth: [00:21:46] We also heard from Megan. Megan gave birth to her second son a few weeks ago and breastfeeding is on her mind. So she nursed her first son, but mostly pumped to provide breast milk. She went back to [00:22:00] work, pumped in her office throughout the day. It was not the ideal like nursing experience she hoped for, but it worked and she pumped for about six months before her supply kind of dropped off.

She thought with second son, That things would be easier because she went back to work quickly, but is working from home throughout the pandemic. And she envisioned being able to really have that ideal like experience this time where she nurses on command and bonds with the baby. But that has not been her journey.

She's had supply issues. She's had mastitis more than once. That's cruel and awful, and she's probably going to have to end nursing soon, which is so hard. Babies had weight issues. It's just been really difficult. And here's what Megan said, which I wanted to read quite a bit in her words, because I think so many women will hear this and just nod along.

 Some days, I feel as though my body is failing my child by not performing this simple function it's built to do. Others. I'm grateful to be able to have someone else feed the baby to give me [00:23:00] a moment of peace. I sit with the hormonal changes and messy existence that is postpartum life and grieve that the time for best breastfeeding this child is over.

My son still gets nutrition he needs, even if it's not the way I envisioned getting it, I still continue to come to terms with all of the different, new and unexpected ways. My body has changed through a second pregnancy. I'm commemorating the end of an era, even if it's. Sooner than I'd like to commemorate it ending. I'm grateful to my body for creating this precious child.

I'm grateful for the small amount of time I was able to create nourishment for him. And now I'm grateful to start a new chapter of motherhood.

Sarah: [00:23:34] I think her holistic outlook is really, really impressive, especially in the middle of hormonal changes. I think that's a very good way to think about it. Listen, breastfeeding is the hardest, so hard, you know, and I like it.

Like I straight up do, like, I'll never forget going to see one of my friends do boards and I held it for like an hour and she was like, And we were talking about it and I don't know if what I was saying or whatever. She was like, you would [00:24:00] breastfeed him if you could. And I was like, I would, I thought why I like, especially newborns once they get a little bigger I'm out.

But I just think though that it is, it's just, it's become this like, like cultural touchstone and it's, there's so much wrapped up in it. And between our. Ideas about our bodies and motherhood and just the cultural pressures that we experience as first time moms, the second time moms, I mean, fun fact, Megan, I'll never forget my midwife telling me that she sees more postpartum depression and issues with second time moms, because we're trying to do everything we did for the first time mom and the second baby.

That was definitely true in my experience. And I just, you know, it all gets wrapped up in this thing, not to mention that then you layer on top that there's like, Multimillion dollar industries built on selling this stuff either formula or let's not, let's be honest. There's multimillion dollar industry surrounding breastfeeding as well.

Pumping supplements, like just endless and endless, endless. It's just this big [00:25:00] complicated. Pressure cooker and you put somebody who's just gone through an incredibly intense physical experience is taking on this new role in this pressure cooker. And you know, any amount of grace you can give yourself and Megan is clearly giving herself lots is just a huge accomplishment.

Beth: [00:25:17] That's right. And I have such a relaxed attitude about breastfeeding now, compared to where I was when my kids were little, I did not enjoy it. It at all, I'm grateful that I was able to do it. I pumped in an office, which was just the hardest, I can't even put into words how hard it is to pump in an office.

Even if you have an ideal setup, which I did. I had a door that closed with a lock. So I could be by myself, in my office, working on my computer or eating my lunch or whatever, and pumping that is a luxury. So many women don't have an, it sucked, but I'm glad that I did it. And also I think that I would have been just fine if I hadn't.

And I know my girls would have [00:26:00] been just fine if I hadn't. And this is a place again where I'm grateful for the options that we have. I think it all depends on what's really important to you. What you're willing to fight for. And what your body's up for. And honestly, Megan, I would've thought the same thing.

I would have been like, Oh, I'm working from home. This is going to be super easy. There is nothing easy about being a person in the world this year. Nothing. And I look at my sister all the time and my sister is just awesome. And she has so much joy about her baby. And every time I witnessed that, In a text message or a phone call or whatever.

I am so proud of her choice to have so much joy in this baby, because I know that it is grueling. What she's going through. Teaching from home, being on camera, like all day, trying to breastfeed, having some weight issues with the baby, too, not sleeping. All the things, plus just [00:27:00] the ambient grief. She's so sad about us not being able to get together for Thanksgiving this year too much, basically.

And so Megan, yeah, you and my sister and so many other women are just finding ways to say this is still my motherhood experience and I'm grateful for it. And I am here for it. No matter what it brings to me, I just salute your courage.

Sarah: [00:27:34] we also had a third anonymous commemoration from a third-year medical student. She has an IUD and has had it for four years. She thinks it's helpful, empowering and has really improved her anxiety as far as accidental pregnancy. On the one hand, she absolutely loves it and has recommended it to multiple friends.

And in this sense, birth control has made her life so much easier for her and for her boyfriend of almost four years. But coming up on the decision to remove it, did she want to get another one? Does she want to switch to the [00:28:00] pill? Did she want to get a copper IUD or hormonal? There's so many options and other options come with lots of side effects.

She says, I guess what I'm saying is that I love birth control and will gladly prescribe it to my future patients so that they can pursue hopes and dreams that would be difficult to pursue in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. But I'm also saying is that I hate it and will feel extremely reluctant to prescribe it as a bandaid for endometriosis, dysmenorrhea ovarian fibroids, et cetera, because no option is perfect.

And every option comes with a load of disclaimers. What if, if thens, weird ass side effects that make you feel insane and I love nuance, I really do, but I feel angry that I have to live in this tough nuanced space when it comes to my body and the beautiful bodies of my future patients.

Well, first of all, I would like this anonymous person to be my doctor, because I think this approach is mwah chef's kiss so good. Just be like, I just feel like would we not advance several decades in women's health if doctors were just honest about that? Like, wouldn't that just be like the most revolutionary first step?

Let me tell you about the complexities of birth control. In some ways. [00:29:00] It's great. In some ways it sucks. I just want to be honest with you. Like, I mean, I'm not surprised that she loves her IUD. That was the most recommended. I think it still is the most recommended form of birth control among providers.

But she's right. Like just any sort of introduction of hormones or even a copper IUD, like the side effects everybody's body is different. And the lack of research that I always tell people, like, I'm the weirdest feminist on planet earth. I think everybody should have birth control. And also I think it's the devil and nobody should use, it's not really being hyperbolic, but you know, I just think the transparency.

And what she's feeling and being able to convey that. And I wish doctors felt like more freedom to just be honest with people and say, this is not, this is nuance. This is not an easy all-in-one approach for birth control.

Beth: [00:29:43] Just her sentence that every single birth control form comes with an inherent burden is a level of transparency that I don't think we really, we see often from any corner of the universe. I was about to say healthcare providers, but anywhere we'll just go with anywhere. I think it's a beautiful thing [00:30:00] too, to have doctors who have done this calculus and for whom this calculus has been really present and has had its downsides and its upsides.

So the biggest thing that I take away is exactly what you said. This is going to be a, you are going to make a good doctor. You are going to be such a good doctor and that's so needed. When I think about the fact that for the majority of my life, a male doctor was talking to me about these kinds of choices. It frustrates me not because I think men can't be amazing doctors for women, but. You can't have this kind of conversation in the way that this listener is going to be able to.

Just that experience matters so much. So I'm really appreciative that this listener has shared her honest experience about the benefits and the burdens of birth control forms. And so encouraged that she's in medical school.

Sarah: [00:30:59] Well, [00:31:00] that's total mind meld. Cause my, before you even said that I was going to ask you, have you ever had male OB GYNs. Okay. See, fun fact. I never have. So I started in high school with a nurse practitioner who was a woman I attended church with. She was so like my first few visits were like, she just talked to me the first time.

And then the next, this time I came, I had an exam. Like it was such a nice introduction to women's self care. And then in college, I went to planned Parenthood in Lexington, and there were only, I wasn't really actively choosing, there were only female physicians. And then when I worked at planned Parenthood in central North Carolina, it was only female physicians.

And so then in law school, when I was going to the student clinic, I came really close, I had an appointment with a male doctor. And I think maybe like a week or before I just had this moment where I was like, I've come this far and I don't want to be examined or treated by a male OB GYN. And so I [00:32:00] called and canceled the appointment and rescheduled with a female and have never looked back and do not see male OB GYNs and like to bookend this back to the beginning of the conversation.

I think that they're like, I think there's something to the fact that I felt empowered, like in the home birth situation to do, to, to fight for what I wanted and to do that, and still was to only seeing female physicians. Like I think there really was something to that. Like, and I remember reading in college when we were re when one of the professors was teaching about this.

 There was a really famous French physician who like, I think was one of the pioneers from, with water birth. And I can't remember his name anymore, but, and he basically like stepped back at one point, it was like, his whole life's work was, was natural birth. And he said, I've just decided that this should be women's field and I'm going to step back.

And I think that women need to take the lead here. And I think like hearing from this anonymous listener, like it just [00:33:00] converts me. I think it's, I mean, again, mind meld, I mean, I think you want someone who has a similar lived experience that knows what it's like to move around in this body. And again, you know, my full disclosure, my backup should have anything gone wrong with my home birth, was a male OB GYN who's just the best surgeon in our area, but I do feel like that's a little different, like surgery to me feels different than being examined, but. I dunno. Yeah. I, I think it's so interesting that you and I both were like late thinking about the same thing.

Beth: [00:33:31] Well, thank you all so much for sharing your stories with us and your hearts and your losses and your joys. We'll be back here again with you next Wednesday. You can catch us on Pantsuit Politics. Between now and then, keep it nuanced y'all

Sarah: [00:33:59] The Nuanced [00:34:00] Life is produced by Studio D podcast production.

Beth: [00:34:03] Alise Napp is our managing director.

Sarah: [00:34:05] Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.

Beth: [00:34:08] Learn more about our work by visiting Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com to sign up for our weekly newsletter and following Pantsuit Politics on Instagram.