Commemorating Body Acceptance

We answer a question from Jessica about breaking the cycle of body shaming in her family. Then, we share commemorations from Grace and Audrey who are embracing their bodies in beautiful ways.

Burnout: The Secret of Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily and Amelia Nagoski

If you want to submit a commemoration or send a question to ask Sarah and Beth, please email hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com with "Commemoration" or "Ask Sarah and Beth" in the subject line.

Thank you for being a part of our community! We couldn't do what we do without you. To become a tangible supporter of the show, please visit our Patreon page, purchase a copy of our book, I Think You're Wrong (But I'm Listening), or share the word about our work in your own circles. Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook for daily news briefs, GIF news threads, and our real time reactions to breaking news. To purchase Pantsuit Politics merchandise, check out our TeePublic store and our branded tumblers available in partnership with Stealth Steel Designs.

Transcript

Sarah (00:03):Hi,I'm Sarah.

Beth (00:05):and I'm Beth.

Sarah (00:06):We host a Pantsuit Politics, a podcast with a remarkable community of listeners.

Beth (00:10):Here on The Nuanced Life, We come together every week to answer your questions and commemorate your milestones and hopes of bringing a little more grace to every aspect of life.

Beth (00:26):Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us for today's episode of The Nuanced Life. We're going to be talking about bodies and body acceptance. We have some amazing commemorations that we cannot wait to share with you, and a really important conversation about how we talk about our bodies.

Beth (00:42):Before we dive in, we want to issue a last minute invitation to join us this Friday, October 23rd, for political therapy, pre-election political therapy. A lot of what we do here at The Nuanced Life falls into the category of let's process our feelings. Let's walk together and hold hands through hard stuff and whomever you're supporting in this election. However, it turns out it is an election that is some hard stuff that we need to walk each other home through. So we're going to do that in community online in a safe way. On October 23rd, you can use the link in the show notes to get your tickets, and we would really love to see you there.

Sarah (01:19):So first up we have a question from Jessica. She says my mother-in-law and sister-in-law repeatedly and consistently criticize and talk bad about their own bodies in front of my nieces and my young daughters. I truthfully don't even know if they are aware of it or how harmful it is for the girls to hear them talking about themselves like that.

I know for sure, my mother-in-law picked up the habit from her mother and she seems to have passed it onto her daughter. And now the nieces I hear talking about how fat and ugly they are. What would be the best way to one, shut this down before it spreads to my girls and two, empower them to be kinder to themselves.

Beth (01:51):I think this is such an important question. And it's one, I think we've circled around here before. I think this requires layered approaches. I don't think you can let that stuff pass by in conversation without doing something to mitigate the harmful effects.

Beth (02:09):And I do believe there are harmful effects. And so for me, when I hear someone in my life criticizing themselves in this way, I try to follow it up with, isn't it interesting how we see ourselves versus how everyone else sees us. Because when I look at you, here's what I see. 

Just something to show that disconnect between that personal sense, and also to make it clear that we're not all going to sit around and bond by criticizing ourselves. Cause that's a trap that women slide into way too quickly. Oh my gosh. I know, right? My ears or my thighs or whatever. No, I like to show from the beginning that that's not the direction this conversation's going to be going as long as I'm participating in it. Do you want me to keep going or do you want me to pass this over to you?

Sarah (02:59):Well, I don't know. Do you have more to say?

Beth (03:00):I do.

Sarah (03:02):Yeah, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

Beth (03:03):The second layer for me is a direct conversation with my kids about, Hey, this is, you know, you're not making it too big of a deal and certainly not criticizing the people who they love in their lives. But did you notice how she said that. That just really didn't feel good to me? And I bet it didn't feel good it to her. And I want you to know that sometimes we talk to ourselves this way and that's not the script that I want you to have for yourself. And then just all the other things that I do with my kids to try to build up that healthy body image. We talk all the time about being strong, talk about sleeping, to nourish our bodies because that's what it needs.

Beth (03:38):So constantly having a conversation with kids about positive body stuff, but addressing the negative when it comes in. And then I think the third layer at some point, it's not at all out of line as a mom to say, Hey, this is coming up a lot. I don't know if you notice it. One, I don't want that for you. And two, I don't want that to become the background music for my girls or for me, can we all work on this together?

Sarah (04:03):So last year I suggested that, uh, the close females on my mom's side of the family read Burnout, The Secret to Solving the Stress Cycle by sisters, Amelia Nagoski and Emily Nagoski. It's a fantastic book. They both do a really good job of talking about what they call about the bikini industrial complex and people who make money off making us feel bad about ourselves and our bodies and how we can contribute to that. 

With this type of language, it was a multi-generational conversation. It was me and my two cousins, my mom, her sister, and my grandmother. My mom was really good about this when I was growing up, I knew that my parents were constantly trying to lose weight. I knew my mom wanted to lose weight, but she never did the, Oh, I'm so fat. Oh, this my thighs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Sarah (04:56):And I felt the positive impact of that. But I don't think that I still think there was a level of conversation that was still harmful. You know, I think that we've gotten better even among groups of women, but there's still a lot of, you know, around the holidays. Oh my gosh, I just overate so much. Or I just, this was so hard or I feel, so I feel like I've gained so much weight since Christmas or, you know, that kind of language.

 And my younger cousins are even better at this than I am of like, recognizing, like, see, see how we phrase that, see how we talked about this. And I think honestly seeing how much it was hurting my cousins to talk like that was really impactful for my mother, my aunt and my, and particularly my grandmother, because I think there's a generational component to this.

Sarah (05:40):I think that we have to be really careful not to make it about individuals because the cultural messages are so strong. It's just the water we live in that I honestly think, And I speak for myself, there have been times when I didn't even realize I was doing it because it's so just baked in to a certain extent. And so I think like picking something sort of objective like that, so you can open up the conversation, but we're going to read a book. We're going to listen to experts instead of let me come in and tell you what you're doing wrong. 

Uh, you know, I think that was a really helpful way to start this conversation because we were talking about, we weren't talking about each other. We did end up talking about each other and conversations we've had around each other, but it started because we were talking about the book and I thought that was like really, really helpful framing.

Sarah (06:25):And it led to like one of the most emotionally raw, vulnerable, but powerful conversations I've ever had within my own family, especially with the women of my own family, because I do think this is really important. And I think it's a cycle and I think it is imperative for us to break that cycle for future generations, but it was hard. Every, literally every single one of us cried. And I think all of us felt really raw when it was over because when it comes to the body and when it comes to this culture that we live in and the pressure women feel, there's no way to talk about it without exposing some really powerful emotions, really powerful experiences, really traumatic experiences surrounding women in their bodies. 

And so I just think that it's both essential and needs to be treated with so much care because there is so much history and emotion and trauma, but hopefully love that we feel for our bodies and for each other wrapped up in it.

Beth (07:30):It's really difficult. I don't know that for me, the goal is ever going to be that I love my body. I just, you know, I don't know. That's kind of another situation where we take a lot of individual responsibility for this journey, even though we didn't individually create the, the thing that causes the problems. I think the Negoski sisters talk about this in burnout as the beauty industrial complex. So if I tell myself that my standard is I want to have this glowingly healthy body image and the face of a world that gives me every message that I shouldn't, that's a lift.

You know, my, my body acceptance hero is Anna Guest Jolie who's such a good friend to me and, and was my yoga teacher, um, throughout my teacher training. And she is very realistic about like the goal sometimes is just to be present in your own body just to not get disconnected from it, by all of those messages out there.

Beth (08:28):It's hard to ask us to say, yeah, I, I see beauty in myself the way others see it in me. That's just too much, uh, when it comes to the battles that a lot of us are fighting. At the same time, I think we can raise our children very differently and I think those messages that they hear from us all the time can at least serve as a counterweight to some of what they get in the world.

And I recognize some of the messages my girls are getting in the world are a lot better. There are some advertisers who've come a long way on this. There are actresses that are representing lots of different looks so much so that I just notice, even in the, the choices my girls make, when they're coloring that something different is in their mental stream than was in mine at that age.

Beth (09:18):And so I'm really encouraged by the direction that a lot of this is going. And that's why I think your point about the generational aspect is important too, because we have to recognize like my girls are primed for something better than I was. And I still have a lot of work to do around it with them. I am primed for something better than my mom's generation, still lots of work. And it gets harder the older that you go here, except when you find older women, who've reached that point of everyone can jump off a bridge, I will be who I am and I love those women. Um, but it's, it's all very difficult. And I think being really conscientious about it is, is like the best that we can do individually.

Sarah (10:00):This is a perfect transition to Audrey's commemoration that she sent us.

Sarah (10:16):My relationship with my physical body is complicated and the last decade or so, I've been working hard to dismantle toxic ideas. I've had about it for much of my life. I started running, which helped me respect what my body's capable of rather than criticize it for how it looks or doesn't look. I learned how to respect food and enjoy my favorites without feeling guilty for it. I was shown how an unhealthy body image could occupy my thoughts, not leaving room for my brain and energy to concentrate on more important issues.

And yet here I am four months into working from home and sheltering in place, I sit resting in a sprained ankle. I'm very aware of the six pounds I've gained since March and that those are in addition to the five pounds or so I gained during the 2019 holidays. I can acknowledge it in today's terms while the world is dealing with a pandemic.

Sarah (10:55):My body is a healthy one and not something to be ashamed of. I can tell myself that there are more important things to focus my energy on, like working on becoming an anti-racist, then how to lose these 11 pounds with an injured ankle. Still not an hour of the day goes by in my recent weeks when I don't think about my current weight. That being said, my commemoration is me being able to see just how far I've come. 

While this extra weight continues to occupy my thoughts and my time of it's taken me so long to write this email, it hasn't caused me to see my body is less than or something to be ashamed of. It hasn't caused me to have anxiety or fear of what it would mean if I didn't lose it. My body and I are dealing with a lot right now so if 11 pounds is all I get from a pandemic, waking up to systemic racism and giving my ankle the time it needs to heal, I guess that's not so bad. 

Oh, Audrey. That is so beautiful.

Beth (11:41):It is beautiful. And that's such a wonderful place to be. Um, because again, it's not this connected. To me, like that continues to be my persistent goal. Not to get up, get to a place where I just ignore my physical body because I don't like it. And instead to just be here in it and to see us as like partners, my mind and body walking through life together. And so I think recognizing like our bodies are doing a lot for us during this pandemic at a time when they are threatened, more presently than we're usually aware of, is a big deal.

Sarah (12:21):What I love about us choosing to talk about the body in this episode at this particular moment in time is because along with everything else, the pandemic is shaking loose ideas about beauty routines, body acceptance fitness, because for so many of us, if I'm doing this for other people, what am I going to continue doing if I'm not around other people? Or am I really doing this for myself? What do I find myself continuing to do if it's not in front of other people?

Like I think all of this examination, Anne Helen Peterson wrote a really interesting piece about this, about makeup and putting on makeup for the first time in months and I think this, this moment in time for women in particular gives us space to think about like, how do I feel about my body? When I think about my weight who, who am I thinking about it for?

Sarah (13:13):Who does it matter to? Makeup, hair, clothes, all of this stuff that's a part of the bikini industrial complex. Like who is it for? Who is it serving? And I think that, you know, that this particular moment offers an opportunity to think about all of these things and to see exactly what Audrey is articulating. That maybe it's not a destination and that maybe additional clarity, discernment, just a moment to process the attitudes you had, the attitudes you have now, that is so beautiful. 

That is so amazing. That is powerful. We don't get a lot. I mean, we don't get a lot of moments as a culture to step back for how we look to one another, because we're not around each other and think about all these things. Like I think all of us as individuals have those moments. I think pregnancy was a really powerful moment for me to, re-examine how I felt about my body.

Sarah (14:13):I think that happens for a lot of women. Chronic illness can do that. Exercise and fitness achievements like marathons, or like your yoga teacher training, like all those things. Like we have them as individuals all the time. And I think they're so important. But to have this cultural moment where beauty standards are, if not crumbling, certainly being re-examined and thought through massive changes with inside the fashion industry and how we formulate the fashion calendar, just like all these really seismic changes and giving women the ability to just stop and say, where was I? And where am I now?

Sarah (14:52):And perhaps, where do I want to keep moving towards? Like, I just think that is, that is incredible.

Beth (15:10):Let's hear from Grace who has such a fun manifestation of this. Grace turned 40 last week. She said that she approached her 30th birthday with trepidation because it felt like a threshold into adulthood. And she said 10 years later, I think I've realized that real adults are as mythological as unicorns and amen to that. And she said, I knew I wouldn't be a real adult by the time I turned 40, but as it lambed, I started doing things I wouldn't normally do. 

So grace joined her sister-in-law in a direct sales business because she is introverted and wanted to challenge herself and she's really loving her experience so far. She is learning about building new skills. She formed a group with people after the murder of George Floyd to advocate for changes in their civil war themed neighborhoods naming conventions that is doing the work out there in the world.

Beth (16:01):Shoot. She said that she's having to really kind of deal with some ugliness in her community because of that she's doing it. She took a leave of absence from her job. She did all of these things while navigating the COVID life. She had a trip to Europe canceled like others. So she has had that kind of loss that other people have. She decided to take a trip to the beach with some friends. 

She goes to the beach and she thought I want to do something that is uncomfortable for me and what she came up with was skinny dipping. And so she spent her whole 10 hour drive thinking about whether she could actually skinny dip. She explored the beach house with her husband and told him what she wanted to do and she told him it has to be tomorrow and it has to be before midnight.

Beth (16:48):And her husband said, well, whatever, but if that's what you want to do, go for it. And she wasn't sure if she wanted to do it with friends or not, but she did tell her friends and they were not only supportive and encouraging, but they committed to making it happen with her as an early birthday present. So a little before midnight, she says, we headed to the beach.

We commented on how bright the moon was. We questioned whether or not what we were about to do was a safe choice. We saw a crab scurry past our feet and into the ocean. Then we saw another. And with the sweep of the phone's flashlight, we saw hundreds of ghost crabs congregating on the beach. The pool at the house is just as good for skinny dipping we decided. That would have been my choice too Grace.

Beth (17:24):So we headed back to the house, slipped out of our clothes and slipped into the pool with three minutes to spare before midnight. My friends spent those three minutes asking me questions. What did I want to leave behind with my thirties? What did I hope my forties would bring? And what did my thirties teach me? I don't remember all that I said, I wish I did. But I remember saying I wanted to leave behind insecurity and lack of confidence. I wanted to leave behind getting hung up on every little thing. 

I hope my forties would bring me a job that was life giving and engaging. And that I'd raised two kind thoughtful humans who'd be ready to navigate the world when it was time. I told them that I hoped my thirties had taught me who my friends are and who and what is worth my time and effort. Then my friends wished me happy birthday. And we sat in the pool until we got too cold, talking about the serious and the silly, the media and the mundane. I woke up the next morning and had the best birthday I can remember. Yay Grace.

Sarah (18:10):Oh, that's so lovely. Have you ever been skinny dipping, Beth?

Beth (18:13):I have not been skinny dipping. No.

Sarah (18:15): Oh, well we turned 40, so I guess that's going on the list. I've been skinny to me, but I have to admit listening to Grace's story. I was a little bit, it was a little bit of a cheat. I skinny dipped with some of my close friends from college and the ocean, but like we got in the ocean, took our swimsuit offs, swim around naked and then put our, so there was no to have the actual, I feel like essential as like nature of skinny to be where you're running naked. So I don't know if that's technically a cheat, but I do think that like I have some very strong feelings about nudity and the power of being naked in front of other people.

Beth (18:53):I'm aware of this about you.

Sarah (18:56):Okay. So here's the thing it's it's multi-tiered okay. The first thing is part of the power of my mother's message to me when I was a kid, even though I knew she was trying to lose weight, is that she was naked a lot to the point where one year for Christmas, I said, can you please put clothes on? She, we shared a bathroom in the hallway from her master bedroom. And then my stepfather had the mat- is like a teeny, tiny little master bathroom in the, in the bedroom so she was like walking in between a lot.

It's not like she was just like hanging out naked. She'll kill me for this conversation by the way. But I look back now and I think that was powerful like that. She just like, because there was no shame and I think shame is what's so toxic about our body culture.

Sarah (19:35): And so I just didn't have a lot of like hangups about being naked and still don't. And any remaining hangups I had about being naked in front of other people were definitely erased when I had children. But I think like, you know, cause I love Korean spas, I believe, believe, believe, believe in Korean spas, uh, where you are in a big room naked with a lot of other women or men, if you're on the male side. And I just think that there is something so incredible because I think what the, the culture we live in tells you there's one type of body, right?

I think that's the power of that message is there is one type of body and that's the correct type of body to have. And so when you are in a room with 20 other women, depending on the number and you see the breadth of the human body on full display, like it, just to me unlocked something inside your own head, when you can see people naked and you can see how incredibly diverse the human body is. I don't understand how we settled on mannequins because literally nobody looks like that. But like, it's just to me, it's so empowering. It's so expanding in the most incredible way. And that's why I think being naked, skinny dipping, Korean spas, whatever the case may be like, I just think it's really powerful.

Beth (21:00): Well, let me say this. I've done the, the Korean spa with Sarah and I am a Korean spa convert. I really have learned to enjoy that experience. I'm a plus size person. And so I have a hard time at the Korean spa being like what a beautiful diversity of bodies we live in because I still feel within our culture, like my body doesn't get to be part of a beautiful diversity of bodies. It's wrong that there can be a beautiful diversity of bodies, but within certain parameters that my body doesn't meet.

And so I still find that experience more challenging, but I also think there is freedom in just recognizing that like your body can be in that box, that lots of messages tell you is wrong, but nothing falls apart when you show up anyway. And that to me is the power of it.

Beth (22:00):That nothing blows up because here I am with my wrong body, accepting it in a way that I've been told is wrong. And that's what I really admire about the women who lead Health at Every Size conversations, because they just demonstrate that one, you absolutely can be gorgeous in a plus size bikini. You can live your best life in so many ways. And, and it's beautiful. 

And it's much easier for me to see that in other women than in myself, but the fashion bloggers who do this work as plus sized women have meant a lot to me. Like I said, my yoga teacher who just created a form of yoga, where we recognize that not everyone is thin and that yoga is still available and healthy and fantastic, whatever your body size and configuration is. Like, there are so many people who've really paved the way for me to feel better in my own body.

Beth (22:52):I still have that sense of like, I'm too large. I take up too much actual space in the world. And also it has been helpful to me to like go head first into experiences that show me, well, you know, maybe somebody is thinking that, but like nobody said it to me and I didn't die of embarrassment or shame here. And I actually was able to like lean in and really enjoy this experience. And so chipping away at all of that has been really great for me. And I could absolutely see myself skinny dipping now because I, I, I know that, uh, something wouldn't like blow up because I had done so

Sarah (23:30): Well with us it’s going on the list. That's the first thing, the second thing I think too

Beth (23:35):Not in the ocean, I just want to say like I do have-

Sarah (23:36):Oh, no, I don't actually like to the swimming in the ocean makes me incredibly uncomfortable. There's just so much there. It was literally like a galaxy of things underneath you. Anyway, I think the thing about that box too, that I've learned over time and I think it's because this is a personality thing I just like to have, like, I just like to push sort of uncomfortable, radical feminist political topics and groups of women. It's just like my favorite hobby. It's just a thing I do. And like being a women's studies minor thinking about these things from a really young age and having lots of these conversations with lots and lots of different types of women and different types of bodies.

Sarah (24:12):What I've learned is literally there is not a female on planet earth who thinks her body is in that box. Not a one, no one. I don't care what kind of body she has. I don't care if you see her and you see the mannequin, I promise you. She does not think she's in the box. She thinks something's wrong with her because that's how that works. The system works because we have to buy things because we're not in the box. Right. Because we don't fit in the box.

And so we have to buy these things so we fit in the box. So the message has to be no matter what you look like, you're not in the box, Heidi gloom doesn't think she's in the damn box. Like no one thinks they're in the box. I think that's, what's so toxic about that messaging is that everybody thinks they're not in the freaking box.

Beth (24:56): I think that's true. And I think it's also a hard thing to hear. Um, like when you feel like there's a more objective, hard line around that box for you, but, um, but I take your point and I don't mean to say anyone's struggle with this as harder than anyone else's because it's not.

Sarah (25:14):And I think that's also a fair point to make. No, I think you're right. I think both things are true. I think no one fits in the box. And then your point is I think actually some people do have harder struggles and I think that we have to acknowledge that. I think around ability and around size, there are women who receive a much stronger and more toxic message about not fitting in the boss. Like, let me, I don't want to say that that's, I'm not arguing that I think you're 100% right about that.

Beth (25:38):Yeah. And there are, and there are also women who fit exactly in that objective box, but in their minds, they don't, and it's a harder struggle than I have. You know, even though the box seems to be bolder to me. So I think it's difficult to make any generalizations here and that it's important to just recognize that we all are on our own paths. 

And I'm so glad that Grace's path led her into that pool. I'm also so glad that Grace's friends were there with her, for that experience and encourage that. I think that's the model of female friendship for all of us to be the people who say yes, what do you want to do? Yes, I'm in with you. Not, Oh, that makes me really uncomfortable. So I like Sarah that you push into some of this stuff in our relationship because it is very helpful to me.

Sarah (26:23):I have a final generalization that I think everybody can get on board with and I'm not being hyperbolic or silly. I think that this is so important. I think when we're talking about people who are doing the work, who have blown up this proverbial box and the impact it will have for generations, I think that somebody should nominate Lizzo for the damn Nobel peace prize. 

That's what I think when it comes to the power of that industry and the power of messaging and visuals and advocacy, like I'm not even trying to like make a hyperbolic point. That woman has done. Like I can't even begin to fathom the impact of Lizzo and her forceful presence and her incredible talent and the way that she presents herself and her body and talks about her body. Like give her the Nobel peace prize that's in closing. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

Beth (27:20):Well, I agree with you a hundred percent about this. There are lots of women who I value so much, uh, for, for just being in a public sphere with a larger body than is usually in the public sphere. But what I think is so singular about Lizzo is that it's never once a joke. It never once puts her in the place of being a certain type of character. 

Like she is a hundred percent showing up with her body and saying, I am here to be fierce and nothing else, and you will not turn it into anything else and I am in complete control of that. And look at all these women who are dancing behind me with bodies that are usually not on the stage either. And they are also here for one purpose and you don't get to decide what that purpose is. So I, yes, I agree with you a hundred percent.

Sarah (28:08): I just love her so much. I just love her. I love her so much and she feels like such an appropriate place to end this episode.

Beth (28:15):I am so thankful that you all continue to share your stories and your struggles and your achievements and your commemorations with us. Please keep doing that. Hello at pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. Please join us for pre-election political therapy this Friday. We'll be here with you next Wednesday with another episode. We're going to talk about pregnancy and babies next week, get excited for that. Between now and then you can find us on Pantsuit Politics, have the best week available to you and keep it nuanced y’all.

Sarah (28:53):The Nuanced Life is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.

Beth (29:02):Learn more about our work by visiting Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com to sign up for our weekly newsletter and following Pantsuit Politics on Instagram.