What We Learn From the Enneagram

We take a hard turn away from the stress of Election Week and talk about the Enneagram, what we've learned from it, and how that knowledge serves our relationships.

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Transcript:

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Sarah 

Beth: [00:00:05] and I'm Beth. 

Sarah: [00:00:06] We host Pantsuit Politics, a podcast with a remarkable community of listeners 

Beth: [00:00:10] Here on The Nuanced Life, we come together every week to answer your questions and commemorate your milestones in hopes of bringing a little more grace to every aspect of life.

Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us for today's episode of The Nuanced Life taking place here in election week. And look, we have a hard time deciding what to do with this episode. We did a lot of brainstorming. We did a lot of soul searching. We decided that this would be a good day to break from our usual format, but also not to go hardcore into politics.

So at a listeners request, we are going to talk about the Enneagram today. You're welcome. 

Sarah: [00:00:55] I love the Enneagram and I bet if you don't know anything about the Enneagram, you are wondering about what we're talking about, because we mentioned it pretty regularly. So here's a chance to catch up. 

Beth: [00:01:03] Maybe that's a good starting place. How do you think of the Instagram when you talk about it, Sarah? Because it's different from like a Myers-Briggs or a StrengthFinders. There are lots of personality assessments out there. And I do think the Enneagram is quite different. 

Sarah: [00:01:18] Yeah. I don't ever talk about it as a personality test. Because that's not, I think it is a tool of self-awareness. That's what I'd call it.

It's like a, um, it's a model of personality for sure. But the idea is that we're all nine numbers on the Enneagram, just some of us settle at one particular number. That's sort of our default and what I really like about it is it describes it as your sort of default behavior and stress, which that's why I think it's such a powerful tool for self-awareness because I think it's always, always good and helpful and insightful to investigate how you act in moments of stress and anxiety.

And so using this tool of this framework to think through, okay, when I'm just reacting, instead of responding, what behaviors do I lean on is really, really helpful. What about you? 

Beth: [00:02:15] I think of it really similarly, it's that default motivation, like what is driving the bus of our brain, if we don't bring consciousness to it and that can happen in moments of stress, it can happen in moments of, of elation.

My kids talk about the zones of regulation at school a lot. And I think whenever you're not in the green zone, The Enneagram plays a big role. Where you just have anything else pulling at you, this is what that sort of monkey brain does. 

Sarah: [00:02:50] I first heard about the Enneagram, probably about fou- well, at least five years ago cause I wrote a blog post about it before we started doing the podcast, but it was probably maybe six years ago. It was right towards the end of when I was blogging. And it took me a while to figure out my type. I thought I was a one, but I'm also occasionally drawn to eight. Every once in a while, listener will send me an email and be like, are you sure you're not an eight?

And I go back and I, for a while, I got the enneathought, which is a daily email they'll send you. And the like a week into getting the eight emails I was like, no, I'm not an eight. Meanwhile, when they send me the enneaone emails, I'm like get out of my brain, get out of my brain Enneathought, thank you. 

Then I caught it at sort of the beginning and then it really, not the beginning it's been around for a long time, but where it really became like pre Instagram channels about Instagram and read, a lot of books, did a lot of listening and felt like, okay, I'm definitely a one, I'm definitely a one with a two wing and it was just really helpful to put some language around like you said, those sort of monkey brain motivations. 

I think the most helpful thing, especially in the beginning was releasing myself from the idea that I had to fix everything. I definitely had a narrative in my brain that it was up to me as an individual to like fix everything because I saw things as right and wrong.

And when I saw, you know, enneagram ones are very motivated by justice and when I felt like there was an injustice or unfairness, like it would just eat me up and seeing that default behavior and just recognizing it and not necessarily releasing it or fixing it, but just recognizing it, has been enormously helpful.

Beth: [00:04:29] I had heard of it before it became a part of my sort of understanding of myself. It seemed really complicated to me. I did not investigate it. It is very intimidating.

Sarah: [00:04:41] Very, it's intimidating. 

Beth: [00:04:44] But I really got the understanding of it from therapy when my therapist just announced that I was a two and that's where a lot of things in my life kind of crystallized around my Twoness.

And he just started saying it regularly, like this is a fact you are a two. And that prompted me to go do some more learning. I got that daily email for awhile. I haven't read books on it. I have them on my Kindle and every time I start, I think, I don't know. I think I get it. I just, didn't going too much further.

I think that the numbers are really interesting and it has been helpful to me to understand that I basically am always in search of other people's affirmation because that's how I feel like they love me. That love is equated with being constantly given a gold star, knowing that that's my brain's default mode has been really helpful to me.

What is honestly been more helpful to me in my relationships are the subtypes. Mm, which is less complicated, 

Sarah: [00:05:52] I think the subtypes even more complicated that that's where my eyes sort of glaze over at the subtypes. 

Beth: [00:05:58] Oh, interesting.

Sarah: [00:05:59] Let's run through the types really fast since we just covered ours and they're numerical. So that's helpful.

Um, so I'm. Enneagram one, I'm a reformer. I'm very motivated by justice. Beth is an Enneagram too. She's a helper. She's Modi motivated by caring for others. You have the three, the achiever who's motivated by success. Number four, the individualist who's motivated by being unique. The investigator motivated by facts, the loyalist she's my husband's type motivated by sort of safety and stability.

Enthusiast motivated by an avoidance of pain and fun, spontaneity. Eight, the Challenger, who they always say, like they have a need to be against and nine, the peacemaker, which is again, motivated by avoiding conflict, because that's what it is. A lot of it is like, what, what are you trying to avoid? You know, with enneagram one it's like this, this voice in my head better, better, better.

Like the avoidance, the avoidance of it's not just failure, but it's like, Being morally corrupt, like seeing it seen as not moral or ethical is like a huge thing for me. So I think those are the types overall and they break down into triads, which I think is what's in. Tell me what you think about this. I think what's really helpful is realizing where you fall in the triad.

So I'm in the gut triad like I'm very motivated by instinct. You're in the heart triad. And then of course there's the head triad. So there's like this sort of doing, feeling, relating kind of way in which you're moving about the world. And that was really helpful for me too. 

Beth: [00:07:39] I'm not sure that I feel like I got a bunch of new information from the triad, but what my therapist and I talk about a lot is that everything stacks up relationally for me, because I'm a two.

So I want my relationships to make me feel loved. That's my motivator. And then I'm in the heart triad. And then my subtype is this one to one intense personal connection. So the subtyping, there are really three subtypes as I understand it. People who do this professionally are going to be like, you all are missing so many things because it is very complicated.

So rudimentary understanding here, the three subtypes are this one-to-one connection. Sometimes it's referred to as a sexual connection. It's a very powerful, like intimate intimacy between two people. The second subtype is being social. So you like groups of people and that sense of belonging with groups.

And then the third subtype is about stability. And protecting like your stuff, which I'm saying, and a more derogatory way than I mean it, but like people who really worry about having enough and being prepared for whatever we're happens. And it has been super helpful to me to understand that all those components are in all of us.

It's a matter of which ones you gravitate toward the most, like your stacking of them, how you prioritize them. And it's been helpful for me to get that I prioritize that one-to-one intimacy first, the social second, and the safety security, third and Chad is the opposite. And that, that has just helped me get a lot of the dynamics in our relationship.

And appreciate that often when we have tension it's because we're each acting out of that dominant subtype. Not because he doesn't love me, you know, or not because we have wildly different values, but because we, in that way stack up really differently. 

Sarah: [00:09:46] Yeah. I mean, I think the next level, like the people who are, I think of like, Jamie Golden and Aaron Moon people who like, they just talk about the Enneagram and I feel like they're like masters of it. 

They are so good at seeing the types in other people, and I'm getting much better at that, but I feel like you're like Enneagram 101 is just figuring out your own type and like maybe figuring out the type of your spouse and how that interacts. And then when you can like really unlock that level of where you see other people's motivations through the type so that you see sort of conflicts more clearly. 

I think that's so helpful. I spent like even my kids and stuff, I think it's helpful because I don't, again, I think with kids, it's, it's more like they're shifting all the time, but if you can, if you can see those conflicts and you can see like, well, I'm motivated by my gut and this person's trying to reason with me.

Like, I think that's the thing that happens in politics a lot of times, like people want to want to have, you know, one, person's trying to have a logical policy discussion and the other person is responding from their heart about their own personal experience. And that's just that is like conflict ridden in so many ways.

Beth: [00:11:07] It gets easy when you first give into the Enneagram for it to feel like a really succinct summary of all your faults. But over time it has helped me see other people's strengths better and put names on other people's strengths. And I think in turn that helps me put some labels on my own strengths and also helps me overcome, like I'm getting better at just speaking up for myself in situations where I usually would have denied my own needs and then resented it.

Because I know why I would usually do that you know, and understanding that I would usually deny my own needs and then resent it because I want someone else to think highly of me when actually the person's not thinking about me at all. Like it, they don't know what's happening inside my head, those machinations, it just helps me like do a better job putting into words. These are my needs in this situation. And I think it's a good check on all of those voices that sometimes hold you back. 

Sarah: [00:12:12] I 100% agree. It's so paradoxical to me that we would need tools like the Enneagram or the awareness the Enneagram brings to help us hear those voices. Like there's just a part of me that wants to think shouldn't I be able to hear the, I mean, they're my voices, they're my narratives. They're the things I tell myself. 

Shouldn't I be an expert in them almost more than anything else. And you know, you would hope since I'm almost 40, this shock would wear off, but there's so often that tools like this, or, and I think therapy and journaling, and it's like, you stumble into something and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is what I've been doing this whole time. And I didn't even realize it. 

Beth: [00:12:53] I totally agree with that. And I know that like, again, my husband kind of rolls his eyes at all of this. Oh. 

Sarah: [00:13:00] So does mine, 

Beth: [00:13:03] which I try to just see in the context of what I think kind of his profile looks like, because truly, I think we're the worst at knowing our own stuff.

Like the worst at being able to excavate our own thoughts or to be able to separate ourselves enough from what's going on in our heads to say, Oh, that's what's going on in my head right now. And I really do need the lens of something else. It's not that I think anything about the Enneagram is determinative of what I do.

It's certainly not an excuse for anything that I do that's not a good choice instead. I think it just helps me make better decisions because I am able to step back and say like, wait a second, think about yourself the way you think about another person here and see what's actually going on. 

Sarah: [00:13:48] I will never forget. Oh, gosh, it was probably like a year or a year and a half ago. I got an ennea thought email that was like, you get in your own head and decide that the chaos you see in the world is your personal responsibility to fix. And I was like, I mean, I needed to hear that desperately in the middle of the Trump administration, you know, like that's a thing I do.

And I guess I would have described it, I think the difference is I think what the Enneagram helps me with is I just think everybody does that. Sometimes it's not that I don't recognize what I'm doing, I just assume that's what everybody does. And so like having a tool that's like, Oh no, see this plays out differently for other people.

One, as an Enneagram one it helps me be less self-righteous about like the right way to do things or moralizing about how to do things and realize like, no, not everybody does this. This is your particular coping technique. And seeing that and recognizing that it's just like, they always say meditation, it doesn't fix it.

I don't stop doing it totally and completely, but it gives me that mil like millisecond of a beat where I go, Oh, I see it. I see what I'm doing here. 

Beth: [00:14:56] I liked that beat. I think that beat is like the most powerful thing that we have once we recognize that we have it. 

Sarah: [00:15:02] It is it's so it's, but here's how I feel like I am in my like personal Enneagram journey or just self-awareness and I'm hoping by the time I'm like 50 or 60. It's like, I've gotten to where I can reasonably recognize it and I have the beat, but I'm still powerless to do anything in the moment.

Like, it just feels like all I can do is see it as it's like going by, you know what I mean? Like it's such a weird sensation. Cause afterwards I'm like, there was the beat. Why didn't I do anything? But it feels so ephemeral in the moment, like it's getting stronger, it's getting better. And hopefully this comes with maturity and age, but it's still.

It still feels like I'm a little powerless to these, to these motivations, to this, especially, you know, I'm one of the things that Enneagram one is all about is anger. And that's something that I really have worked a lot on, but I still really struggle with like it's and I can, and I can recognize it. I'm getting, I'm getting better, but sometimes I'm just recognizing that I'm flying off the handle. You know what I mean? 

Beth: [00:15:58] I don't know if we can get much better than just recognizing it. Maybe we can. 

Sarah: [00:16:03] Now I'm looking at the demeanors here and the twos are supposed to be positive. 

Beth: [00:16:07] Yes. So sorry. I'm going to four for a second. No, I just think there's something humbling about the Enneagram Two. Lots of humbling dimensions. And one of those dimensions is like, Hey everybody does kind of fall into a couple of buckets here. And I know there are people who resist categorization, but realizing that there's common humanity and that all of humanity feels a sense of lack somewhere that they compensate for and we're no different, I think that's really humbling.

And the other thing that I think is humbling is that they talk about it as a journey. Yeah. And there are all these confusing lines everywhere, but, but to me, that's just a reminder that you don't conquer the work of being a person. And that's why it is so in line with like every spiritual practice that I have any interest in, you know, because those spiritual practices are just an assurance that it's not like you level up and level up and level up, and finally you've arrived.

And so, yeah. I feel like preserving that beat and maybe lengthening it, you know, recognizing with time that you have even more space to react to something, that you have even more opportunity to expand your perspective. But I don't know that you ever eradicate that sort of base instinct to compensate for some kind of lack, because that would almost be like erasing part of your story.

Sarah: [00:17:40] Right. For me, what's so hard to convey though, is that the humility leads to a path of what I would argue is more empowerment. It's so hard to articulate to people like once you give up that you are this completely unique creature, you also give up the task of trying to unlock every problem through the prism of your own unique perspective.

Like when you can just say, Oh, I fit this pattern of human behavior and so other people have worked on this problem before me, and they might have better solutions to me that is so empowering. And that is so, so much less frustrating and just exhausting, the kind of constant searching and figuring out everything for yourself.

If you just say no, I'm a human struggling with human things. What have other humans done in the face of this? And that's what I mean, as far as the Enneagram is concerned, like the way that so many people are into it and are reflecting and can see patterns and, and share their insights about their own personalities.

Like, I think that's a really positive thing. You know, my cousin sent me an article the other day that was like, is the Enneagram just astrology? I don't know maybe, but it's astrology is another path for you to human enlightenment and self-awareness then I'm not mad at either of them. The idea, like you said, it's not that it's determinative, that it's not, it's not a genetic test that predicts what's going to happen to you.

It's just a tool to try to think through the patterns of human behavior and which ones apply to you and which don't. And I'm all, I'm all for that. 

Beth: [00:19:10] Yeah, I'm not going to go live in an Enneagram commune and cut off. I don't know. I'm just saying, like, there are lots of things out there I've been thinking about Nexium a lot lately obviously. 

Sarah: [00:19:23] Just a very commune step frame of mind.

Beth: [00:19:25] Yeah. I mean, there are lots of tools out there that, taken to some extreme, get real wacky, you know, and that at some point cut you off from other people. Right. And I think that's the point. When it starts to cut you off from other people that seems not helpful, but in the right range, if it's astrology or the Enneagram or whatever, and it actually connects you more to other people and to yourself and gives you a sense of self-awareness.

I super don't care. I also am happy to take a placebo if it works. Like I just don't, I don't pretend to think that my personal brain is so sophisticated and objective that it's above being aided by something that's not all the way right. 

Sarah: [00:20:11] Right. And I think that like, who cares what we call it, we don't have to personality type it. But I think this idea of like, some people are motivated by one-on-one relationships and some people are motivated in social settings. Like that's hugely helpful. That's just something that's interesting and thought provoking about human behavior and something that's, you know, I think would, would feel true to a lot of people.

So what's the harm in thinking about that and what's the harm and considering the role anger plays in your life, if you, if, especially since it's the secondary emotion, why is that something you lean on? Like, to me, like I just don't, I don't understand the harm and thinking through why some people really avoid pleasure or why some people need to feel unique.

Um, those are definitely things I've seen in other people. What's the harm in and trying to put a framework around there? Now, I don't, I mean, I don't think that's true of everything. I kind of think the Myers-Briggs is wacky and not particularly helpful, but if it's helpful to you, I'm not mad. It's not like I'm not going to criticize you. It's just not for me. 

Beth: [00:21:05] I think that when you talked about how exhausting it feels to live in that space of believing you have to solve every problem, some of what a tool like the Enneagram can do is help you name what is exhausting to you? For me, it's believing that I am constantly unlovable and have to earn other people's affection.

Once you realize that that's what's going on and that's so draining for you. It's funny how much more lovable you become, right? Like person seething in resentment that they've done so much for everybody else, why can't you just see it? It's tough. It's tough go. It's a self-reinforcing cycle. And I think that that's true for every number in its own way. 

I know a lot of nines and I think that sense of like, I always avoid conflict, just feeds and builds on itself to the point where you're embroiled in conflict about your inability to take a stand somewhere. Right. That's just what all these things are. I mean, there are so many traditions that teach us that our greatest strength is also our greatest weakness.

And I think this is just another way of starting to, to really understand that and put some context around it and to make some decisions about it. You know, make some decisions about what's going to steer you or, and as a parent, it really, really helps me get into the space of seeing strengths. So, you know, all kinds of things that Jane does that I don't understand if I start to think that's kind of five-ish then I get it and I can appreciate it for what it is. 

Sarah: [00:22:39] Well, I think naming that exhaustion too, like that's key for me. I always joke that when I really knew I was an Enneagram one is when I found these healing attitudes that you're supposed to repeat to yourself. And one of the healing attitudes for a one is others might have a good idea, which I found truly outrageous.

And, um, maybe others can learn for themselves which also like every cell in my body is like, how, how could they possibly learn if I don't help them? Like, and feeling those, the heal, like feeling how much I needed to remind myself of those things in every cell of my body was like, okay, yeah, we're onto something.

And I think I really that's something that it very much helps me with. It wasn't just like a tool of self-awareness, I needed, uh, a voice saying like, you don't actually have to solve all this like that's not on you. That's not, that's just your ego. That's just your, your self enforcing, self-defeating narrative.

And you, like, you can release that. It was a burden and it's not that I'm I'm 100% like fixed about this or anything, but just feeling like having this tool to say like, you don't have to do this anymore. Like, it's not this, it's not a part of who you are. It's just something you tell yourself, was such a relief.

Beth: [00:23:55] I love that. The healing attitudes have been helpful for me also. It's also helpful for me to remember that people frequently guess my Enneagram information incorrectly. And I like remembering that because it's again, like humbling to think I don't, I might know how a person presents to me, but I have no idea what's driving that presentation.

Right. And I need not caricature people. As, Oh my gosh, what an eight thing to do, because I just don't know. You know, even if I think I have a sense of where somebody is, what motivates their behavior and how their behavior comes across can be oceans apart.

Sarah: [00:24:52] Well, I hope and what I found in my life is that the Enneagram helps me feel less apart, less disconnected from what's motivating me and from what's motivating other people in my life. So I found it helpful. I think you have as well. I think it was fun to talk about it. We'll put a link to some of our favorite Enneagram resources in the show notes.

Do we have anything else to say about the Enneagram? 

Beth: [00:25:16] I have one thing to say, because it's kind of a little anecdote that sums up what the Enneagram does for me. I was listening to Tara Brach, who I love, talk about equanimity. And she told a story about a guy in a suit on a phone working hard and this little girl comes up to him and she's like at his knee pulling on his pant leg, trying to get his attention. 

And she keeps like pulling and pulling more aggressively because he can't switch his focus over. And when he finally said he, when he finally looks up from his work, he says to her, what are you doing down there?

And she said, I live down here. And that's kind of how the Enneagram is for me. Like sometimes when I'm just behaving in a way that is so counterproductive, like, what are you doing down here? And it's kind of like the, like all of my life story goes, well, I lived down here. This is just what it is. Um, what, what do you think, what would you expect and understanding that, you know, it can guide you through a situation in a way that just feels more whole.

So thank you for sharing your Enneagram journey, Sarah, and thank you all for joining us. We'll be back with our normal commemorations, not normal, nothing about the show is normal. We'll be back with more of your commemorations next week. We hope that you are taking care of yourselves and the people around you during this election season.

 Until next Wednesday, keep it nuanced, y'all.

Sarah: [00:27:00] The Nuanced Life is produced by Studio D podcast production. 

Beth: [00:27:07] Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah: [00:27:10] Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth: [00:27:13] Learn more about our work by visiting pantsuitpoliticsshow.com to sign up for our weekly newsletter and following Pantsuit Politics on Instagram.