Cafeteria Christian Crossover Episode

It’s a crossover episode! Sarah is talking with Nora and Natalia from Cafeteria Christian about all kinds of things!

If you want to submit a commemoration or send a question to ask Sarah and Beth, please email hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com with "Commemoration" or "Ask Sarah and Beth" in the subject line.

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Transcript:

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Sarah

Beth: [00:00:05] and I'm Beth.

Sarah: [00:00:06] We host Pantsuit Politics, a podcast with a remarkable community of listeners

Beth: [00:00:10] Here on The Nuanced Life, we come together every week to answer your questions and commemorate your milestones and hopes of bringing a little more grace to every aspect of life.

Sarah: [00:00:25] Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Nuanced Life. We have a very special conversation to share with you. I joined the lovely Nora and Natalia at Cafeteria Christian for a great conversation that we are going to share with you here today.

I love that these two are reclaiming that pejorative.

And reminding people that when it comes to Christianity and faith, even when it comes to Christianity and faith, you can take what you like and leave the rest. I think you're really, really going to enjoy this conversation. Before I share it with you, we have exciting news. We're going to be hosting a live virtual event.

We're calling it Pre-election political therapy. That's what we do on Pantsuit Politics. We just give people a space to process their feelings about the intense environment that is American politics right now. So on Friday, October 23rd, at 8:00 PM Eastern, we will be hosting pre-election political therapy.

We're going to have time together to connect work through some questions, work them some fears and anxieties, and we really hope you'll join us. The link is in the show notes, and you can also join us for a live meet and greet. It's really cool. It's like we have our own little video call with the people who get the meet and greet package.

We really miss this. This was our favorite part of the nuanced nation tour is when all of y'all would line up and we get to hear your stories and see your faces. And it sucks that we can't do that in a person. But we're going to try the next best thing. So we hope that you'll join for pre-election political therapy on Friday, October 23rd.

And now without further ado, here's my conversation on Cafeteria Christian.

Nora: [00:02:01] Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of the Nuanced Cafeteria Christian Life cross over. I've been dreaming for, this is a dream. It is a dream. And why is it a dream? Because today, everybody who's in, by the way, Sarah at our community is also reading your book so this is very very special to us.

Sarah: [00:02:28] yaaay I love it.

Nora: [00:02:30] Here's the thing. So Cafeteria Christian is a podcast for people who are like, Jesus, heard good things about him. However, the people wearing his jersey, I do not love the way they behave in the stadium. I don't, I don't. They have bet they're poor sports. Oh, they are. It's just like, don't worry. So this is, this is a space for people who are like that. And we are, there are people in our community who have been harmed by the church.

People are new to the church, people who are like, honestly, my church has been pretty fine, but, but I've got questions, but I want to talk about things and that's what we do here. We start every episode with something that Natalia does not enjoy but I do.

Natalia: [00:03:09] Sarah, I have to tell you, somebody made a poll on our Facebook group. And everybody, it was a hundred percent that they like this and, and just me, like, I don't like it. So every, every listener and the other hosts against, against Natalia. No, actually I think Jesse doesn't really love this either.

Nora: [00:03:33] But they're not here today so that's great for me.

Nora: [00:03:35] So I'm Nora McInerney, and I am joined by my host,

Natalia: [00:03:40] Natalia Terfa

Nora: [00:03:42] and this very special guest

Sarah: [00:03:44] Sarah Stuart Holland,

Nora: [00:03:46] It's an incredible day friends! Sarah, Tell, tell our listeners how they know your name and your voice.

Sarah: [00:03:54] Well, you probably know my name and my voice from our podcast Pantsuit Politics, which is the first podcast we started, where we talk politics. We try to have grace-filled political conversations. We started in 2015. We had no idea what the universe had in store for us.

Um, it's been quite a journey over there and that podcast was impetus for our book, I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening: a Guide to Gracefilled Conversation. But at the end of every Tuesday episode, we have this segment of our show called outside politics, where we had conversations about marriage and life and all this stuff.

And they were getting real long, too long. And so we're like maybe this needs to have its own home. And that's where we started The Nuance Life. Um, and we started having sort of just cultural conversations. And then we stumbled upon something sort of a community service we realized everybody really needed. We take advice, questions, but we also commemorate moments in life that like, don't get enough love.

You know, everybody gets, we get baby showers and wedding showers and graduations and retirements, but there's moments where it's like, I mean, we have everything from, I learned to mow the lawn by myself to, I'm grieving my relatives, death by suicide. I mean everything, or there's a new phase of grief that I want to commemorate or, you know, career journeys, just all these moments where you're like have that moment of self awareness where you think I've done something here and you want to share that we do that on The Nuanced Life as well. And it's always my favorite part of the show.

Nora: [00:05:17] So there that's, that's like a huge reason why, uh, I mean, why, we're, why we're speaking to you because I, I think there's so much in a both of our ecoes, in the ecos of each of our show, uh, that, that really overlaps and guess what? Uh, Natalia and I have both struggled with in life? Nuance. Okay. Nuance. I am being personally attacked victimized by your book.

I am being, I'm being called out alone in my room. It is an unpleasant experience and Oh. I also have ADHD and I have not finished it.

Natalia: [00:06:01] That is shocking.

Nora: [00:06:03] So we started this where we started four minutes ago was that I was going to ask everybody, I was telling you a thing that we do on our podcast, which is,

Sarah: [00:06:12] I was wondering, I was like, was it just saying our names?

Nora: [00:06:15] Yeah, no, we're coming back around. We're coming back around and it's like, this is, I used to describe my brain as a jet ski, not a train of thought, just like a jet ski, because you couldn't go anywhere.

And the jet ski is being driven by a mammal who should not be given, especially not in aquatic motor vehicle, because that's very dangerous. So getting a human back on this jet ski. Yeah. What is on everybody's tray? And I say that our, our motto is take what you like and leave the rest. And so, so I'll go. So obviously I'll go first,

Sarah, you're getting such a good, a good taste. You will never come back this way. Email your producer. You'll be like, what the fuck happened today?

Okay. So this week we've got, uh, Oh my God. A school is challenging all of us. Um, it's challenging all of us. And, um, we all are at that point where we dislike everything about the people in our household, like things that have never bothered us before all of a sudden. Like our four year old is he's not even four and now we've already rounded up his age so we can like him less.

And, and we're so sick of like things that we thought were cute before. We're like, Oh my God. If he asked me to feed him a hot dog, one more time Im gonna loose my mind. It's just, we're all losing yet. We're all losing it. I would like to, to leave that behind. I would like to, I would like to just be a more chill person, however, yeah.

That has posed some challenges, but one thing that I am not engaging with them right now is I am not. And this is also very, very much thanks to thanks to you, uh,

to Sarah and, and enter her coauthor slash cohost host Beth. I am not getting into it on the internet. I am being a little more nuanced.

In my consumption, especially, and trying to be a lot more aware of that. And I have to say, yeah, That I think that it, it, I can, I can track it my heart rate on this Fitbit and it's down. Yeah. And also, um, I feel like some of the ways I engaged in the internet before were like digital pollution, and emotional pollution.

And, uh, and I'd like to, I'd like to, I'd like to, you know, leave that. Sarah: [00:08:52] Got it, got it.

Natalia: [00:08:53] So, Sarah, the what's on your tray is like sort of an ask of what things are you taking and what things are you leaving with this week? So if you want to participate about what's on your tray right now, um, that's sort of like, I feel like this is sort of like your what's what's your life like outside of politics question. Um, In terms of like, what's really on the front of your mind right now.

wow.
Nora: [00:09:19] Context. We love it.

Sarah: [00:09:20] Well, you know, I think what's, what's hard right now. You know, I never would have thought that the fact that my children are in school five days a week and my backyard is not on fire would leave me feeling like the tippity top of Americans, like the most blessed and grateful and lucky of American citizens. Just those two most basic. Sort of environmental factors, just not running for my life.

And my children are in public school. Like, no it's breaking my heart, man. Like that should not be our standard for feeling like I've been blessed by a multitude of angels, but that's a little bit what it feels like now. You know, I have family on the West coast and, um, lots and lots of beloved friends on the West coast and it's, you know, It's I'm really struggling with the sense of helplessness watching what they're going through.

It's really, really hard and, you know, swept up in this, you know, election. Uh, what's the word disaster. Yeah. It's just, you know, that's really hard right now. I'm trying to keep perspective as far as you know, I am really, I am. Grateful for my family. I'm grateful that my kids are in school. I told some of the other day, like, you know, it's like that sensation you get when your newborn starts sleeping for a couple hours in the middle of the day.

And you're like, I could do anything. I could paint my entire house,like a jet engine. Yeah. Unstoppable. That's how I feel right after they're gone. They're gone from eight to four, you know? And it's like, I just feel like I could do anything like literally. And like being able to complete a thought without mama, mama, my mom, I hit my breaking point a little bit earlier in the summer and hired a full time nanny.

Cause I was just, I couldn't, I could not, I was like, I don't care if we go broke. I don't care if we have to file for bankruptcy, like this is going to happen because I can't do this anymore. My husband's like, I think it's going great. I'm like, I bet you do sweetheart.

Oh, No, no, no shade to him. He was coming home so could record, but like recording this is just a small fraction of what we do. We have to prepare, we have other projects. So just feeling like, feeling really grateful. I'm also off my tray. This current moment in my life is a bathroom renovation that's been going on since June 30th.

So. That was a while ago. Yeah, it feels pretty good. It's amazing. I had like a 1990s dream bathroom with like, you know, the countertops where they put them so low. You'd like you get a backache when you wash your face. They were like woah. Yeah.

Nora: [00:12:03] this strange, I'm like were people shorter in the 90s? ,

Sarah: [00:12:06] I dont think they were. I told my husband, I was like, I didn't think like not having a backache when I wash my face with feels so luxurious, but it really does. It's really luxurious. So that's, that's been really, really nice to have done and to be able to enjoy, although again, because of the flight of our fellow Americans, enjoying anything feels like a sin right now, but that's, that's just our psychology.

That's a. That's a common, I think reaction. I can't enjoy anything if people are out there being worse off than me, but yeah. Yeah,

Nora: [00:12:36] because it, cause if you enjoy it less, it will actually lessen their suffering. If you are more miserable about something.

Sarah: [00:12:44] Yeah. I try to remind myself that it's so true.

Nora: [00:12:49] That's how it works. It's like someone will be less sad about their home burning down. If you are less happy about your children being healthy. That's it? That's it. I agree. That's how it works. So we've got our brains are so dumb. Okay, Natalia, it is your turn.

Natalia: [00:13:09] Uh, I'm in that same boat as Sarah. And I know this is gonna make people so mad that there's two thirds of the host of this podcast today are, are living the dream life of children not being at home, but my child is also in school full time.

Sarah. I've never, I, I know exactly what you mean about the, when your baby first starts sleeping and you're like, what is this magic?

Sarah: [00:13:34] Yeah. Nora: [00:13:34] What

Sarah: [00:13:35] this is, that's a hundred percent true for CRM. It's like all of a sudden,

Natalia: [00:13:40] I, I like for the first time in months, I've checked things off of my list, but that by the end of the week, I had not been getting checked off all.

Like, I actually was able to take my day off because I finished my sermon ahead of time or whatever, you know, I was like, normally I write my sermons on Wednesdays and then I let them sit for a day. And then I pick it up on Friday and I have been

writing my sermons on Fridays because I haven't been getting them done during the week.

And then I've been having to redo it, look over it, revise it, whatever on Saturday, which is like, Oh my gosh, the thing I never wanted to do. And so it felt like. It just feels like a dream to be able to get back into that original, like some sort of schedule where I'm alone. And the first day I was like, I'm alone in my house.

I am alone in my house. What is this? And then also then I proceeded to lock the keys of my car in my trunk at the liquor store, like a boss.

Classiest lady ever on the first day of school, of course you go to the liquor store. And so, uh, that was, that was not the way I wanted to start the week

Nora: [00:14:53] but Sarah needs some context because in Kentucky you can get liquor anywhere

Sarah: [00:15:02] in Minnesota. We still have a couple of dry counties and there's still, we have some dry counties, not as many they're there they're fall. They're, you know, they're falling quickly, but. Um, there are some places and there's restrictions, still a couple of restrictions on Sundays and a couple of just like, there's some local liquor stores. They can be open on Sunday, but they just choose not to be so,

Nora: [00:15:21] right. So we were not allowed to have them open on Sunday.
And then, and then also when, when Minnesotans were like, yeah, we want to open

on Sunday, liquor store owners were like, please no.

Sarah: [00:15:31] Yeah, exactly. No, that's exactly what happened here. They were like, yeah, no, we're past. Thank you.

Nora: [00:15:34] Yeah, no, we're good. I mean, I went to school in Cincinnati and we would drive to Kentucky to go to the drive through liquor store that didn't card.

Oh,

Sarah: [00:15:47] she's not here. Cause you can call her out on that. And that's where I live on the other end of the state where we have lots of dry counties. Are we at Kentucky Lake? And for a long time, like the counties around Kentucky Lake were dry, which. Imagine, you know, you have boaters and all these people, we want beer and it's like, they had to either bring in or a member.

And so now they're, but they're a couple of those counties are with now.

Nora: [00:16:09] Oh God. Wow. Yeah. We love Northern Kentucky as a, as a borderline alcoholic college student. That's, you'll love Covington. Okay. Just great.

Sarah: [00:16:23] Love it.

Natalia: [00:16:24] So, yeah, that's. That's what's on my tray and also, also enjoying the alone in my house and checking things off lists in a way that I haven't done since March. Like truly.

Sarah: [00:16:36] Yeah.

Nora: [00:16:37] Yeah. And it is, it's kind of like, I love the analogy of like, once you have a newborn baby, and then it starts to do anything and you're like, Oh my God. Yeah, I've got all this time. Like the baby, the baby's asleep, or the baby can like occupy itself, looking at something. And you're like, what did I do with my time beforehand?

Sarah: [00:16:55] I watched too much TV. I know the answer to that question, way too much television in my twenties, way too much. I should have been doing a million other things besides that. I watched so much intervention and 16 and pregnant, and hoarders and real Housewives. I wasted my youth wasted. Oh

Nora: [00:17:13] my gosh. I really did. Yeah. I, I mean, my daddy used to say youth is wasted on the young and, uh, And that's absolutely true.

Uh, all of it, all of it like having, having just like a, a body that can survive on three hours of sleep and, and thrive wasted on the young college wasted. Oh my gosh. Having a body that could be active and not like. Oh, my gosh, what did I do yesterday? I hurt everywhere

Sarah: [00:17:39] My nine year old today was like, Hey, were you there? When I did a flip on the couch and fell off and knocked my breath out of him self. And I was like, no, I wasn't. And he was like, but I was fine. I'm like, no, you feel fine. But damage now that you will feel at 40. So just remember that I gave it, like, I gave him straight up sermon to some little girls in my church who were trying to, and now it's like, listen to me, your spine.

It's separated by jelly and every time, yes, squish out some jelly. This is an anatomy lesson. And I was like, you don't understand, like you're wearing it down and it doesn't bother you now, but you're like, it'll be too late. It's don't, they're stupid. And then the wife of, one of these children was like, you know, we just, what did you, how did she phrase it?

She was like, We just let them do what makes them happy. And I wanted to be like you and I have different parenting styles. What makes you sad? Let's lean into that. So you can learn to get through it.

Nora: [00:18:42] What makes you sad?
Sarah: [00:18:44] What makes it hard for you? Let's let's work on that.

Nora: [00:18:47] Uh, absolutely the same also. It's like I'm, I'm not a regular mom or not a cool mom.

I'm a regular mom. That is my, that is my motto. And actually I'm just not, I'm not a fun mom. That's just the bottom line. There, there will be the party's over. When I walk in the party, don't stop till I walk in

Sarah: [00:19:04] One time we were at church. And he was like, your friends, this is why your friends don't like me. And I was like, Oh, Well, let me tell you something. That's a compliment. That's a contract. I don't want your stupid friends to like me because first of all, joined the company of 10 year old boys and never will. Second of all, there'll be a time when you're going to do something really stupid and you're going to be like, y'all, my mom will kill me and they'll go.

Yeah, you're right. Your mom's a bitch and they'll let you go. And you'll be so happy. You'll be so happy because they'll all know what a jerk I am and then I don't play. And so when you're like, I can't do that. They'll be like, yeah, you're right. And they won't bust on you and you'll have an escape hatch and you're welcome in advance. Thank you

Nora: [00:19:47] exactly. I've said that exact thing, like you can always throw me under the bus with your friends. I can handle it. Like I'm not, not super worried about what the 10 year old girls on the block think about me. Fuck I'll handle my disappointment that they don't like me.

Sarah: [00:20:04] Thanks. 10 year old, Sarah cared so much cared enough for like the rest of my lifetime. That's true.

Nora: [00:20:12] That's true. Yes. Same with ten-year-old Nora. I was like, I will be whoever you think I am.

Sarah: [00:20:17] I'm going to be fine. Yeah, actually, no, it's not. It's the wanting to be that I could never quite follow through with, I want to do badly, but I could just never quite get there to this day. We hang up and girl, this was not available to me.

Nora: [00:20:32] Oh my gosh.

20, 20 minutes in. Um, we do have, we do have as a sort of topic, which is this nuance Christian life kind of thing, because, um, you know, one of the things we. We started this podcast, Sarah, uh, it's been two years. We started this podcast around the idea of not being, or being, not that kind of Christian. Right. To just kind of note that we had to caveat our Christianity out in public so often,

right. To be like I'm yeah, I'm a Christian. You kind of say it a little sheepishly, right. To be like, Oh, but I. But I'm just not, I'm just not that I'm not that. And a Christian, like the one that's allowed and out on television all the time. like the one that, the one that marginalized groups aren't safe around. Yeah,

Sarah: [00:21:32] exactly. And the same thing Beth used to do with being it before she changed her registration with being a Republican or a Republican, not that kind of Republican.

Nora: [00:21:38] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry. I don't want to take away like you're.

Yeah, exactly. I don't want to take away your human rights. I just,

Natalia: [00:21:44] you know, So we, we're curious about nuance, Christianity. I think we, we spend so much time wondering what that looks like. Right. And all these, we sort of take at that lens on a lots of different issues and some people. Uh, don't don't, can't, haven't been raised in such a way to be able to look at faith and Christianity and scripture and all these things in, in a nuanced way. Right.

That, that Christianity for so many people is black and white it's it's, uh, inner out yes or no. Right. It's um, You believe this or you're wrong. It's just so hard to, to start just as it is in politics. I think it's hard to start bringing in the idea of nuance into faith just as it is in like the rest of our life. And so I was very excited to have

you and Beth on the podcast, just because I feel like this idea of nuance and faith fits really well with what we do and what way you do.

Right. It's a nice crossover of what the, the two groups that. That we ponder and think about regularly. So I'm just kind of curious, you know, I know you and Beth are both people of faith, but also you are nuanced in the way you believe in the way you present in the world.

So I'm curious about how that has kind of played out for you in public and in private.

Sarah: [00:23:05] Well, you know, I think my journey, particularly with the church and I'm going to use the church specifically and not necessarily Jesus, like you said, at the beginning, I really never had a beef with him, Paul yes. Jesus. No.

You know, I grew up in an evangelical Baptist church with all the baggage and arguably oppression that comes along with that. There were good spots, but like, it really turned me off for church from a very long time specifically when I had premarital sex and my life did not fall into shambles around me. And I thought, Hm, what.

So I, you know, I didn't go to church for probably about 10 years. I had my first son and I thought, you know, I argue all the time that people need to give like other institutions, like government and public education and, you know, politicians sort of like grace, right. Not have a zero tolerance policy. And I realized I was really applying that zero tolerance policy to the church, this idea that I would stomach no error.

Right. And that the only way to sort of protest what I felt was a really harmful experience was to just completely. Bow out, complete it all the way. So I kind of started with evaluating that my husband was like, Hey, I grew up a Piskel hole and I don't carry all that baggage. Want to try that out? Yeah. So, um, we started right big part for me at that time, our church had a female minister and that just felt like a very safe space for me, especially as I was going back to church.

And so, yeah. We went back to the Episcopal church when my now 11 year old was probably about two. I was part of, yeah, because I was pregnant with my son Amos and he's nine now. So we went back and, you know, I think I started really reading, examining him. I thought, you know, I kind of had this idea, like, we're going to go, we're going to let the kids soak it up more out.

Well, of course that's not how it worked. I got sort of swept up in the community of human beings at our church and started thinking about my faith in a different way. And I totally agree with Renee Brown, I'm a born again Christian or at some Marcus Borg and was like, wait, what?

Richard Rohr, um, who just broke everything wide open for me in a real way. And so, you know, and I think, especially as we started the podcast and started articulating the idea that. In politics and the political space. A lot of times what we're talking about is values. And, you know, my values are very informed by the teachings of Christ and I wanted to be able to live that and articulate that and, and constantly being examining that.

And, you know, I saw the, the church is a really essential component of that journey. And so I think, you know, The nuance I've found recently, as far as, you know, church, which nobody can go to right now, at least we can't, some people are still going then getting COVID. It's fine. And then, you know, just this idea of the role of individuality, not in the church and Christianity in our culture, we had a listener send us this great thing about how she sees it as like.

The she called it the Pauline approach like Paul, like a very focused approach to Paul. Whereas the, what you need to be consumed with is your personal relationship with Christ. This very individualistic view versus a gospel view that's very informed by your neighbors and your connection to other people.

And like, there's just, if you're trying to turn from that individualistic mindset, which I think infects everything, the church, healthcare, education, politics, um, and turn towards a more connected community driven approach to problem solving. And I don't know, just life. There's no way to do that without nuance.

Like. You're going to gather a bunch of human beings together. It's going to get complicated. It's gonna be frustrating. I think there's just no other way. My friend emailed me the other day and I was like frustrated with, with a group of people. And she was like, I just, you know, I wish it was more controlled.

And I was like, well, then you have the wrong species. You should be an aunt. Like, that's not how we roll. It's just not how we roll in. Like, we're a beat. You'd be like, there's lots of options, but humans, you know, it's. This, this connection, this experience we have together, be it with our children or our spouses or our congregations or our communities or our nation.

Like what we're living through right now is extremely nuanced and extremely complicated. And the quicker we can let go of that sort of black and white us, them good guys, bad guys prism, you know, certainly the less frustrated we'll be, but it's, it's really hard. I think it's really baked in that I'm, you know, this sort of myopic individualistic view where I'm walking through the world as the, you know, the sort of hero in my own story and I'm sorting all the people, are they with me?

Are they against me? I mean, you know, it's just, it's so damaging to our psyche and I think the sooner. We can all move from that. But the problem is like, there's no way to sort of convince people of that. You just have to live it. Like, that's what we always say about the tough conversations, these difficult conversations about politics or anything else, like.

I can give you all the tips and advice. I could fill a book with it, in fact, but like the whole part of the book is you got to just go practices. It's not one conversation. We're not teaching you to how to hack political conversations. We're teaching you to go out and do it and it will break your heart sometimes.

And then the sun will still rise the next day. You just have to live that, you know, you just have to experience that sort of vulnerability and frustration and heartbreak and all those things wrapped up in being in relationship with other human beings and the, and the happiness and the fulfillment. Like they're just, you know, it's the paradox you get.

They live on the, you know, each side of the same coin and it's just hard to. It's hard to convey that you just have to experience it.

Nora: [00:29:29] I think too people struggle online. Um, and this is purely, obviously, I'm not sure I'm not talking about myself. I've never done any of this. You know, the successor or dopamine is not released on the internet from having a lukewarm take.

That gets like six likes it's from having something. Yeah. You know, I like having a tweet that can go viral in which in 240 characters is going to be quite difficult for you to, there will be no nuance. There will be no, you're not rewarded for new ones. You are rewarded for the hottest of takes. And, and that invites just as much, um, rigidity from uh, from whoever reads it and does not feel the same way. So it like you're setting up and by you. I mean, Nora McInerney is setting up a system and perpetuating a system where people can entrench more deeply into whatever they believe is is right. And everybody walks away feeling grosser and worse.

Sarah: [00:30:42] One of my favorite phrases we use in the book is the siren song of self righteousness.

Like that's what I have singing in my ears all, all the time, get on Facebook. I'm going to share this particular article from Atlantic and everybody's going to see the light and we can all move on with our lives. And it's just, you know, I still want it to be like that. Am I still probably gonna share articles from Atlantic?

Yeah. But I know deep down, it's not going to work. You know, like I know deep down, that's not how things happen. I don't think that Facebook, I mean, I do think that Facebook is the devil's playground, but I think that there are opportunities where you can, can stumble upon something difficult, some upon conflict.

And we see a lot of listeners pulling, just pulling the conversation, even into a direct message or offline and a lot of beautiful things happening. But, you know, it's sort of like the, the, our whole idea with the podcast. Like, we didn't want to speak in talking points. We didn't want to speak in. Posts and tweets, like we wanted to speak deeply and you can't do that.

Or it is very, very difficult to do that through a social media platform. Like. The best way to get curious with one another and really learn is through relationship, not just one conversation, even one conversation in person, this is an ongoing process. This is a thing where we're going to prioritize the relationship.

Not like, Ooh, I'll own them. My least favorite phrase online. What's I know I

Nora: [00:32:08] hate that line

Sarah: [00:32:09] so awful. And you know, I. I think that there is any, and here's the other thing too, though, when we're talking about this, like get owned appeals to a very particular, usually masculine, usually young perspective. And so we do need to acknowledge something is being met there.

Like there are people doing the Lord's work, like Contra points over on YouTube, like appealing to a very certain, yeah. Like a very certain need that the human

human beings have. And instead of just being like. Rolling our eyes and shaming and pretending it doesn't exist, like meeting people where there are.

And like, that's, I think that's a really part part of this because you know, it's not like I'm asking person of color to go really engage with grace with the white supremacists. I am not asking that and never would like, that's not their work to do. That's always says like, you need to really be aware of what you're saying or to do is, but like, if you are a white lady, Who has privilege and resources in the space in which you can push people into uncomfortable scenarios and know that you will maintain safety, maintain boundaries and like, yeah.

Well, let's talk. If you want to be an ally, sometimes an ally is going into. The tough rooms, not just standing next to our brothers and sisters of color. Right. You know, it's, this is why people's work to do. And this is sometimes this genders people's work to do. And this is most certainly men's work to do.

When we talk about toxic masculinity, like

Nora: [00:33:31] by the way, like, where are the men in these things? Like, do you see.

I mean, I drew them in like, where are you?

Sarah: [00:33:40] Yeah, hard. It's so hard. I think like, because they're there, but then, then it just becomes, or just owning conservative people, right? Like that, there's a, there's a warrior, there's a battlefield mentality that can really take over.

And I think. You know, that's hard. And I think that that's a conversation as much as you know, we need to have conversations about white supremacy. We need to have conversations about male supremacy and the fact that that perspective really infects things and is so toxic. I mean, toxic masculinity is a buzzword, but seven, you know, we're in the middle of suicide awareness month.

75% of deaths by suicide are male. Something is wrong. Something is wrong. You know, like I, as a mother of three boys, like, it just feels like there are these sirens, these red flags all over the place. When we talk about the lessons that men absorb, I think one of the best ways I've ever heard of was my uncle who said about another male family member.

Like he wants to be the victim and the hero. And that is so hard. I mean, you can see that sort of. That tension, even in like Donald Trump and a lot of our political figures, this idea that like, I'm the only one that can say the day. And also everyone's attacking me, you know, like this just very dichotomous viewpoint that can, I feel like can just really shred you if you not careful, careful, or even if you aren't careful, you know, I just, I think we have some really hard conversations and a lot of work to do with the men in our own lives.

You know, I think COVID is shaken loose. A lot of. The gender roles inside families. And this idea that the women in the family are just picking up all the Slack. And right now, I mean, Slack doesn't seem like a fair description of what's happening in the middle of it.

Nora: [00:35:29] Okay.

Sarah: [00:35:31] It feels like more like the Volkswagen full of bullshit. I think like, you know, we just have to, we have to say it, we have to name it. Like we have to say. It feels really unfair right now that I'm carrying the entire burden for virtual learning. That doesn't seem right to me. It's hard. It creates tensions and relationships that, that as women we've been taught, this is definitely what happens in politics.

We've been taught to erase tension, to remove tension, to make everyone comfortable. And, you know, I don't think that's gotten us the place we want to go. I think staying comfortable is not a way to solve problems.

Natalia: [00:36:10] That idea of being the victim and the savior, man, I, I think that speaks so much to, I mean, me as a, as a pastor, as a person, as a mom, as a wife, I just think these, these ideas of like, I also enjoy being the one who gets to solve all the problems.

Right. I also like being the one that has all the answers and, and I like getting things right. And I like. Finding out that my, what I thought was my opinion actually was, you know, right. All along or the thing I thought was true is true. I mean, we all enjoy that. That is that's human. And I think. Part of the nuance of, of a person being a person of faith, uh, is to remind ourselves that we are not the savior, you know, and we really like one of my friends, um, she's a pastor in North Carolina.

She, she always says like, Oh, you're sitting in the big chair. Like you think you get to be the one on the big chair, right? She was talks about, um, that God's the only one that gets just sit in the big chair, but there's moments where her and her husband will be like, Oh, I know, I know what you're I know what you're doing right now.

They say it to their kids, to each other, to like to remind each other of this moment of. Oh, that's what's happening here. Like I've I set myself on the big chair and it's a good, it's a good moment to be like, Oh, that's not my chair to sit in. Right. That's not my place to be in. And I findthat, you know, I think partly is a as a person with some privilege and a person in a position of leadership. And as an Enneagram, one, those things are very challenging to put all together to be like, I am right. And here is the thing you all need to know

Sarah: [00:37:54] that I'll never forget I got the email one day that for the I'm also a one. And they were like why do I have a tendency to feel like they see chaos everywhere. And they're the only ones that could fix it. And I was like, get out of my head that's rude.

Yeah. I was like, no, but I mean, because it's not that I it's just, I feel like, you know, for me as an Enneagram one, it's not that I feel like I'm the only one that can fix it, but I feel like a bad person if I'm not like, you know, I always talk about Lottie Moon. I feel like a lot of men was a very damaging narrative.

When I was growing up, like you're only good. You're only sacrificing the Lord if you're literally giving all your offering at your church. Okay. So Lottie Moon was this missionary, I believe in China in like the 18 hundreds, maybe early 19 hundreds. And we will always collect the Lottie Moon offering. And I remember

there was maybe some like videos and the story of Lottie Moon is that she literally gave all her food away until she starved to death.

That's the only way wrote that went to a church where they had the Lottie Moon offering. Like, it just, it was like very cause again, it's that individualistic. I remember one time listening to an interview with Shonda Nyquist on Oprah's podcast. And she was like, you can never do something so bad. God will stop loving you.

And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I got it. And then she was like, you can also not so good that God will love you more. And I was like, wait

girl. No, definitely. Yeah, you can be good enough. Like you can be so good. Jesus definitely loves you more than and everybody else, like if that's what I picked up from the line, like he definitely loves me more obviously

Nora: [00:39:36] an offering after. So we all love her more than the other missionaries who live.

Sarah: [00:39:42] No. Right. Do I remember the name of another missionary? No, I do not. Thank you for asking. And so it was just like this very, again, individualistic. You're never quite good enough, but you bet, you sure as heck better keep trying. As opposed to Oh, good news. The real good news. You're connected. We're all children of God.

You're not in this alone. Like not only because. You're not in this alone because of Christ, but you're not in this alone because we are all part of this family and we are all neighbors to one another and you don't have to solve it by yourself. Isn't that great. And that's not the only, like you're not trying to earn it.

Grace isn't earned. Like you don't have to hustle and starve yourself because that's not the goal. The goal is to, you know, Except this beautiful gift that was unearned,

Nora: [00:40:28] who also didn't earn it.

Sarah: [00:40:30] Your neighbors. Right? And it's like, I was listening to Nadia Boltz Webber on Dak Shepherd's podcast. The other day she just said, did y'all do y'all ever listen to his podcast?

Nora: [00:40:38] I do. I did not listen to that one though. I'm kind of like, I save longer podcasts for really long. Like I wasn't runs, I don't run. I go on a walk.

Sarah: [00:40:47] Oh, it's long. They like they Bob and weave around each other because he's like a kind of forceful atheist. And so he was like going at her and man, she was just bobbing and weaving and she had an answer.

She was so good. And she was just talking about like grace and how important a role that is. And like, you know, she's like, nobody earns. The taste of a peach on a hot summer day. Like nobody, nobody, not even the sweet, precious Lottie moon, like, you know what I mean? Like it's just, she, she articulated that idea so well that like, and, and I think if we can go into Lord Facebook or tough conversations about politics or otherwise, or particularly into the voting booth with this idea that like, Hey, this is an earned and the citizenship is kind of a good example for that.

For a lot of us, it's like a birth for, so, so many of us, we didn't earn this citizenship. Right. And I think like, just keeping that perspective as a source of connection to your fellow human beings, instead of falling for that siren song of self righteousness, that is so disconnecting. I mean, it's not easy, but it's not complicated.

Natalia: [00:41:48] Right. That, that idea, I, I read that same article, Sarah, that you guys posted about. Moving from Paul sort of that individualistic, right to that guy, full of communal theology, more of a like acting. We talk a lot on our podcast about acting outside of your own self interest and how, how contradictory to our whole life that is like everything else.

And our society tells us to like, take care of yourself and make sure you're okay. And put on your own oxygen mask first. And all of those things are.

Sarah: [00:42:19] It's like our it's like our psychology and animalistic nature, you know, it's like, it's really baked in to a certain extent. Right.

Natalia: [00:42:25] And then to say, okay, you have, so the reality, I think of a, of a, of grace than a Christian life is saying like, God, put on your oxygen mask for you and what are you going to do now?

Like, who are you going to take care of? And like, you don't have to worry about the oxygen mask it's there. And so like what. What are you going to do with this, you know, with your one wild and precious life, right?

Like what are you going to do with this? What are you going to do with the freedom you've been given to stop hustling so much and working so hard and, you know, starving yourself in order to, in her, like, what are you going to do so that you don't have to earn it, but that you you are taking care of the community, right? You're taking care of the, we,

uh, my daughter is in, in softball for the first time. This year she's in fall ball. It's so cute. This little girl team is like all girl power. All ra ra girls are awesome. They're so cute. They do the little cheers for each other, but

Nora: [00:43:26] Oh my God, the cheers that what stands out to me from softball was that we spent, I would say 30% of our time coordinating cheers.

Natalia: [00:43:36] But what that's teaching her to me is so beautiful. They're teaching community in a, in a really powerful way where they're saying, like, it doesn't matter if you strike out because somebody behind you is going, like we win and lose as a team. We do this as a team, like your individual actions. Yeah. Like, it's awesome if you do a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily matter more than what happens as a team. Right. And so they've, they're teaching this mentality of like, here's what it means to be a part of this team in a way that. I'm like dang soft ball, fall ball, who knew

they're doing in some way,a better job than the church does about reminding people. Like we are a part of something bigger and it is not necessarily about your individual skill. It's about how you support each other and connect with each other and cure each other on and encourage each other. And I I've been like, geez, jeez, I'm getting schooled over here in soft ball who knew.

Sarah: [00:44:38] You know what we've really been. We've been talking a lot about, about the idea of caregiving, like caring for one another as a, as a model for citizenship and, you know, even using the word mothering, if, if, if we're really talking to a female, because it gives us such a good way to think through that. Like, You know, I always say, I feel like parenting is just saying to my children a million different ways.

You are not the only person here adjust accordingly. Like you're not the only person on planet earth or in this family or in this room. And so I need you to just think through that and adjust your behavior. And I'm like, I think that's part of it. And I think that, you know, in citizenship, like we get a lot of questions of like, well, what if I'm talking to somebody.

Who, you know, even a family member who's, you know, disrespecting my basic identity or being really hurtful or whatever. And I'm like, you know, caring for people is not condoning everything they do. Like I can really shut it down as a mother of other people's kids. I ain't got no problem with that. You just pull on that voice and you're like, that's not acceptable.

I love you. That is not acceptable. And. The struggle for me, you know, I would say like the Jesus lip and the tables and the than the temple is my favorite Jesus. But it's like, it's such a fine line. I can really tip into self righteousness, but when you really love someone and you see yourself connected to them, and you can say like, I don't see who you are and what you're saying right now, who I know you to be.

And like, we can all do that. And you see the same thing as like, like what you're talking about, like in teams, like you see that, like, it's not like teams are always like. You know, you're doing a great, you're doing such a good job. It doesn't matter that you completely cheated or completely like ran over your fellow team member while they were trying to do their play their role on the team.

Like there's roles for coaches and a fellow team members to be like, we still love it. You're still part of this team. You can't do that anymore. That doesn't work. That doesn't work for the good of the group, because as much as we are, are finely tuned to this kind of animalistic instinct. To look at everything for an individual lens.

The paradox of being a human being, I mean, this particular species is we are also finely tuned to the group. That's why we love that us, them so much. That's why it takes a box in our brain. Right? Like we are finely tuned to that shame doesn't work, but social pressure sure. As held us like those favorite is the electricity experiment where they like put on your bill. You are in the top. Yeah.

Nora: [00:47:06] That, that works for me.

Sarah: [00:47:10] I want to be everybody on that nest email every month. Like, I want that for myself and like that you can skew kind of saw it with math, right. It was like a. Well, I don't know how are we going to come down on this? And then all of a sudden, a lot of, because of social pressure came from big corporations that were saying, you want to come to target, put a mask on, but that can work to that, like where you're looking around and you're like, it's not because everybody's in

your face being like you suck, but you're looking around and being like, Ugh, I'm not.

Yeah. I don't know guys. I don't know. That is valuable too. And there's, you know, there's a, a space for when we're watching it for the group. We want to, especially, if we feel like. A group or congregation or church or community or whatever is falling down a rabbit hole or a bad path to say, no, this isn't going to work for us. This isn't gonna work for us.

Nora: [00:48:09] is there space to do this with people who are not really in your community with people that you don't really have a relationship with, but people who believe ever relationship with you. And I'm obviously asking specifically for myself, when you have a hundred thousand followers on Instagram and then, and.

You know, it's, uh, Yeah. I don't know what I'm doing or why I'm doing it, frankly. Uh, like, and I don't know how to, um, to, I do feel like there is a responsibility to try to have these conversations and also, yeah. Um, I don't have, I struggled to find like a place to start with people who, uh, that that's not judgmental, you know?

And, and like your book, which is basically like the minute you want to give, you said earlier, before your recording, Sarah said, if the minute you want to give this book to somebody, it means you need it. And, you know,

Sarah: [00:49:10] Now we get a lot of hate giving. I know, just who needs this book. Well you did. Yeah. Okay.

Here's the thing. So there's a difference between relationship and influence. Now, relationship is a great place for influence, obviously moving from a place of trust, where you are having, and you're, you're continuing to build that trust. There's an enormous opportunity for influence there. Um, within those conversations, but there is also influenced without conversation, you know, Beth and I are having a conversation together inside a relationship on our podcast, but we're influencing everyone who listens to that conversation, but we're not in relationship with those people.

And so I think when, you know, just for myself, I'm thinking about influence instead of. Direct conversation then it's important for me to really be in a space of modeling, like showing, not telling just specifically through my podcasts, like if we were talking to the audience, it would not be very interesting.

We are really talking to one another. And caring for that relationship. That's why I didn't blink an eye when Beth wanted to change her registration, even though it gives people in our community, all kinds of fits, they want us to still be bipartisan. So many people want us to be bipartisan. Why? I don't care.

I don't care about that. I care about her. That's just a different model from the influence of social media, right? Because it's, you know, sometimes you're going to have an exchange in a thread that's with somebody you have a relationship with sometimes, you know, I think you can build relationship in those threads.

It's not easy. I've done it a couple times. It was a lot of work. I'm not sure it was really worth it. What I used to do, what I used to say, I would do on Facebook. I don't do it as much anymore. Cause I do feel like Facebook is the devil's playground

is I would just sort of disrupt the narrative. Like I felt like that was the best use of influence with people that I didn't have a relationship with.

So I would, my father is a like full, full, mega, full Trump supporter. And so I would just show up in his threads and say like, hi, I'm a Democrat, not a member of Antifa. I don't eat babies. I actually like babies and I don't want to destroy our country. Just wanted to be like a friendly, helpful reminder of that fact that like, there are lots of Americans.

Whose values are represented in the democratic party who are not your enemies, but yet are your fellow citizens. And so, you know, I think there's a space for that. I think that there there's a space to just sort of disrupt. Like, I think that's kind of a good use for influence where there's maybe not a lot of relationship.

It's just a really tricky game. I'm not going to lie to you. Like, and I think there's, you know, always a role to just share how you're feeling about something, um, to share your thoughts on a subject. Um, knowing a lot of people are going to read it that you're not in a, in a close, personal relationship with, especially like, you know, bets as opposed to every election day about like the ballot.

This is what I know about these candidates. I'm gonna put links in the comments and like, people love it because not everybody has time to do that kind of research. And I think when you're sharing your perspective, that might be different than other people's, as opposed to just amplifying a party talking point.

That's the kind of influence that can really have impact. Because it's not like they need one more person in their feet saying that they think Trump's an idiot. Like we're full up on that. You know, like the people who, no, we got it, but, you know, Through a personal, you know, like my child has a disability, he has hemiplegia.

So he has an IEP. So sharing my personal experience with that process, even with people I'm not close to a personal relationship, might open their eyes to something they will not experience. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's, you know, I think that there's a role for that. And I think there's a power in that, on social media where you're influencing through sharing something authentically or sort of.

You know, just sort of disrupting one of those binary narratives by saying, hi, just wanted to roll in here and say it's a little more complicated that at least for me, but you know, you're not always going to get applause and you're definitely, maybe you're going to get some. Hate coming back at you. And I don't think that's just, you know, that's the part of the game on social media.

Nora: [00:53:25] Yeah. It really does. It really does. And then also, and sometimes like, I will be honest. We w I go on looking for a fight, you know,

Sarah: [00:53:36] and I'm going to ask, so I'm going to do a full Dr. Phil now. And how's that working out?

Nora: [00:53:39] Well, it's like, it's true middle child energy. Okay. It's like, how did he work as a kid either? It's like, let me throw up a fit and my parents will pay attention to me. It's like just it's. No, no,

Sarah: [00:53:51] I still do, like, I don't even remember where I heard this recently, but they were like, Self awareness is about the goal is not to have these instincts. That's not the goal because that is an unachievable goal.

The goal is just to be aware of them and to take a beat for you, respond and react or to respond rather than react. Right. And so believe me, every time I see, I still read a lot of Atlantic articles and every time this instinct, I'm going to put this on Facebook and really do it. And sometimes I do, I think it's worthwhile.

And I think it might be something that people don't. No, or see a lot of, but like still there, but I'm at least aware enough not to, I've gotten better at like, not immediately picking up my phone or when I'm, and you know, I'm really lucky to the fight, the instinct of fight in me. Is decreased a little bit because I don't feel, feel so powerless and alone because I have a steady flow in my inbox of people like I'm paying attention for the first time I'm voting for the first time.

I no longer believe you can only be a Republican and be Christian. So I don't get in that spiral of like, Oh my God, it's going to go terrible because I have a really steady inflow of other voices in my ear. So, you know, as much as you can, you know, really cultivate that. Cult of life, some spaces for hope, some testimonies of people out there like working in areas you care about, or even better work in those areas.

You care about. What bubbles up in the headlines is not the reality. Like there's so much more going on in the world, always everywhere that stuff doesn't make the headlines. And you know, also, like I tell people, Oh, they're like, Oh my God, how do you just say, how do you work in news and politics? And I'm like, because I sit down for two hours a week and process my feelings about it with my friend.

Like if we were all doing what I was like, you think talking about it and reading about it makes you more stressed. But in a weird way, it doesn't because you're really working through, okay, what's happening. Why am I freaked out about this? And it's not to say, like, you know, I started the show I'm free.

I'm really freaked out and sad and anxious about what's happening on the way right now. But even just naming and knowing, like I'm not the only one and everyone's scared and concerned. Like there is a certain amount of comfort in that. Not like hopefully not acquiescence and not just a. Cynicism. There's nothing we can do.

I don't feel that, but there's just something about it again, it's that pulling ourselves out of that individualistic. Let me consume the world's on fire sometimes, literally and stay in my own head and think I'm going to fix it from behind the computer screen by posting it on Facebook and getting out of that and saying, Oh I, no, no, I'm not alone.

What's the, what's a fuller understanding of what's happening because you know, a fuller understanding of what's happening will always lend some complexity that will ease your anxiety in my opinion, because the headlines are just. Emotion. And when you can dive into the stories and especially read the stories from a couple different sources and you see that it's not all as bad, like there's always way more to it, or there's degrees of bad or different forms about even that like, and I think it's helpful to a certain extent, but like, I think that that just doing that and

processing it, it just brings a really different feel to, like, I don't know, living in the world right now.

Nora: [00:57:03] We're going to end right there. Sarah. Thank you so much for, for joining us on this episode. You are wonderful. I also am going to be contacting you about a different show too. So stay tuned uh, stay at, stay connected to that email. Just kidding.

I'll email your producer and, uh, yeah, it's really, really wonderful. It's a great conversation. You can w Sarah, where, where do you want people to find you? Where should people, obviously we need everybody to smash that subscribe button for Nuanced life

Sarah: [00:57:37] right? Right. Absolutely. You can find our podcasts wherever you find podcasts.

Our website is Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com, where you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter, which honestly, especially if you're looking for sources of hope, we include a lot of listener mail in that newsletter. And it's always a really good source of other experiences, other perspectives around the country.

And then, um, we are on even. God bless us even Facebook, but Instagram, I would say is our primary platform. I do a daily news brief there, and then

Natalia: [00:58:10] gosh, it makes you feel so much better. Oh my gosh. I love a good morning. I love hearing. Um, I love hearing your good morning to start the day and I love listening to you instead of all of the other, uh, dumpster fire news sources that are out there, I'd much rather hear you just. Uh, I'm also an emotional Enneagram one, Sarah so when you cry about things, I'm also usually crying about the same things and,

and so I'm always like, okay, see, I'm not the only one that feels this way that gets self-righteous and gets righteously angry, and then cries about stuff. I'm like, it's, it's my jam. I highly recommend the InstaFollow of Pantsuit Politics.

Nora: [00:58:49] All right. Well, you just got one more email subscriber. Okay. And then as always, uh, when it comes to this podcast, when it comes to life, you're gonna want to be nuanced and you're going to want to.

Natalia: [00:59:01] Take what you like
Nora: [00:59:02] and leave the rest. That's what we do here.

Sarah: [00:59:06] Thank you so much for joining us. We will be back in your ears on Friday over at Pantsuit Politics and until then, keep it nuanced, y'all.

The Nuanced Life is produced by Studio D podcast production.
Beth: [00:59:30] Alise Nappp is our managing director.
Sarah: [00:59:32] Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.

Beth: [00:59:35] Learn more about our work by visiting pantsuit politicsshow.com to sign up for our weekly newsletter and following Pantsuit Politics on Instagram.