Navigating Faith Changes (with Josh Dickson)

We share some listener questions and experiences with faith shifts. To help us answer one of those questions, we bring in Josh Dickson, the National Faith Engagement Director for the Biden/Harris campaign.

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Transcript:

Sarah: [00:00:00] hi, I'm Sarah 

Beth: [00:00:05] and I'm Beth. 

Sarah: [00:00:06] We host Pantsuit Politics, a podcast with a remarkable community of listeners 

Beth: [00:00:10] Here on The Nuanced Life, we come together every week to answer your questions and commemorate your milestones and hopes of bringing a little more grace to every aspect of life.

Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Nuanced Life. We're going to talk today about navigating changes in your faith or belief system about the world. We get so many messages from y'all that sound like I'm having a really hard time with the intersection of faith and politics and my life.

Particularly people from conservative faith backgrounds, where that conservative faith background has translated into a conservative political push. So we have a really special guest to help with our advice question today, and to talk with us more broadly about how we think about faith and voting. So we invited Josh Dixon, who is the national faith engagement director for the Biden Harris campaign to spend some time with us in the course of this conversation, you are going to hear Josh answer a question from Caitlin, where she is seeking some advice.

But we're going to have a pretty broad ranging discussion here about how Josh thinks about his role, how he came into that role and what the Biden Harris campaign's message for voters of faith looks like. So we hope you enjoy this conversation. 

Sarah: [00:01:34] We are so excited to be joined today by Josh Dixon, the national faith engagement director for the Biden Harris campaign.

We invited Josh here today because we know so many of you are thinking through. The issues of the election issues of party identification. Through the lens of faith in a new way this year. And we wanted to invite him here to have that conversation, to think through this with all of you. And we're just so excited that he's joined us today.

Thanks for coming, Josh. 

Josh Dickson: [00:02:05] Thanks for having me y'all. I'm Really, really excited for this conversation. 

Sarah: [00:02:08] Oh, I like the y'all. Where are you from Josh? 

Josh Dickson: [00:02:10] I am originally from upstate New York. My wife is from Houston, Texas, and we moved there for a year. And just picked it up. So it's, it's, it's a part of my life.

Sarah: [00:02:23] And you found that y'all is the most inclusive word ever. 

So how did you become the national faith engagement director? 

Josh Dickson: [00:02:28] Yeah. I come from a family of Moody Bible Institute graduates. My I, uh, great grandparents, my grandparents, my dad, and his three siblings all went to Moody. So I come from a family that has a long line of ministers and, you know, folks who've been very involved in, in their own Christian faith.

I grew up going to church. My faith always been a big part of my own journey. Uh, when I was in college, I was really involved with Campus Crusade for Christ and, and I was also raised in an environment that was pretty conservative and when I was in my first job after college, which was as a kindergarten teacher on the South side of Chicago in a low income school, I just. You know, it really kind of went through this own personal time of, of questioning, um, and of, uh, just real like interrogation of my own politics and looking at the ways in which, um, I felt like my conservative background, uh, and the politics I aligned with actually matched up with the faith that was the most important part of my life and still is today.

 And, you know, seeing all the different things that all the challenges that my students face, just because of where they were born, their skin color and the income status of their parents, uh, I think was something that was really eyeopening for me. And it was an experience that, you know, really made me, I think, a lot more about the impact of elections of the impact of policies and the ways in which our systems are set up so unfairly for people from disadvantaged backgrounds and, you know, as I went through that process, um, I just really started to, again, re-examine my own politics. 

And right around that time, I also read the Audacity of Hope by Barack Obama and he had a chapter in there on faith and politics. And it just spoke to me, I think, in a way that, um, uh, nothing I've read before had, when it came to the intersection of those two things. And that really kind of led me on a journey that led me to switching my political affiliation, because I felt like the democratic party really prioritize, um, the values that were important to me, like loving my neighbor as myself being my brothers and sisters keeper, um, repairing the world around me uh, working to sweep down walls of injustice and oppression and, uh, working to ensure that everyone has the chance to reach their God given potential. You know, and I think for me, faith has always been, um, something that called calls us to serve and not to be served. You know, Jesus talks about that. Um, actually had that scripture painted on my wall when I was in college.

Um, and as I kind of went through and thought about my own politics and my own journey and, and what, uh, what my own calling, um, you know, service was at the forefront. And I really saw the democratic party focusing on an agenda that, um, that I felt like prioritize that and that I felt like really, um, leaned into creating more opportunity, uh, for folks from marginalized and disadvantaged backgrounds, um, uh, working to ensure that the insurance, human dignity of everyone was recognized and upheld, um, and working to make sure again, that everyone had the chance to reach their full potential. 

And so that kind of, um, going through that whole process, I think, uh, was really instrumental in my own involvement in politics, because I kind of asked this question of you know, if I'm going through this process and I'm having this wake up call around now, you know, there has to be a lot of other people like me out there too. And so, uh, you know, I started talking a little bit with the Young Democrats of America. Um, I had some friends who were involved there and I was like, are y'all doing any work, uh, to engage young people of faith?

I think there are a lot of opportunities there. And the president of the young Democrats of America at the time happened to be an evangelical Christian who went to Eastern university, which for your listeners is an evangelical school, um, in Philadelphia. And so he, and I worked together and launched the Young Democrats of America's first ever faith values program.

And that was really how I got into politics was through this initiative that we did where, you know, we were just making this argument that we thought the values of the democratic party align a lot more with the values of young people of faith, um, than what we were seeing from the Republican party at the time.

Uh, and I think that that. Gap has only increased since then. And I've been involved in politics in one way or another since then. Um, I, after that I went and worked on the Obama reelection campaign first at the DNC doing faith outreach and then in Ohio for the last couple of months, doing faith outreach and then worked in the Obama administration uh, for a little bit at the commerce department, um, at the center for faith based neighborhood partnerships there, and then, and then pivoted back to nonprofit work, you know? 

And so since then, I've largely been working in education and community service, but have stayed tied into the political arena. And here in Colorado, where I live now helped co-found the Colorado Faithful Democrats and have just stayed in the loop on a lot of the things happening with, um, the, uh, in the national political scene and have been working with the Biden team for all, for a long time, uh, on different issues related to faith, uh, as well as with the DNC, um, on a lot of the ways that they've been engaging faith communities, uh, when they would go to different cities and do debates and things like that.

So. You know, stepping into this role, uh, was definitely a natural fit, I think, um, given my background, but, but also given the commitment of the candidate, um, two values that I think are important to people of faith. And I think this ticket just deeply represents, um, the common, good values that are important to faith motivated voters.

Uh, that's one of the messages that we're really working to get out there, um, is that, you know, right now as a country, we are in this, uh, this really important moral moment that is going to determine whether we bend the moral arc of the universe more towards justice or not. And we're in this critical inflection point, um, where, you know, we have to decide.

Who we are as a country. Um, and I think that's really the choice that's before voters right now, you know, the vice president started out this campaign talking about, uh, how we're in the battle for the soul of our nation you know. We have, we literally have Nazis marching in the streets right now. And it's like, what are we going to do about these things?

When, when our democracy is challenged, uh, when our institutions are challenged, uh, when we have the, the mishandling of a public health crisis, that leads to 190,000 plus people losing their lives and counting, you know, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond to that? And, you know, I think, um, I think again, like, uh, the, the Biden Harris agenda is so much more aligned with the common, good values of people, of faith than what we see from the current administration.

Um, and so, you know, for me, working on this is just a natural extension of the things that I've fought for, um, throughout my career. And I think that a natural extension of the values that are just so important to me as a Christian and a person of faith and someone who believes in putting those values into action.

Beth: [00:09:54] I want to ask you about governance and faith and the Biden Harris vision post-election for faith engagement. You know, we have listeners who are devout practitioners of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, all kinds of faiths, and then people who are agnostic and atheist and who would say there is no role for faith in connection with government.

And I know that you have emphasized values several times. I would love to know what you think the Biden Harris aspiration is for a working relationship between their administration and the faith community broadly defined. 

Josh Dickson: [00:10:30] Yeah. Thanks. I think that you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the idea of, um, just common, good values, right?

And the idea of, you know, a lot of people we'll share the same values and comment, those values from different perspectives, from different traditions, from different backgrounds. And, you know, I think that's the thing that really makes this ticket special, um, is just being so grounded and rooted. In those common, good values that resonate with so many people in a very authentic way too.

And I think that, you know, this, uh, the Biden Harris vision for America is really saying, Hey, you know, we can redeem the soul of the nation together and together means everyone. And, you know, it's, it's a robust, diverse, inclusive coalition that we're working to build. I work with. All sorts of different faith communities, um, are engaged with folks from all different backgrounds on a very regular basis.

I have advisory groups of people from multiple faiths and people of no faith. Um, you know, who just keep us in the loop on issues that are important to you, communities, um, on. You know, things that they think we need to know about on ways that we can collaborate and partner together, uh, and on ways that, you know, we can find common ground, uh, and, and get things done.

And I think in a Biden Harris administration, that's where you're going to see is a commitment to getting things done and to doing it with as many people as possible who share those same values of the common good.

Sarah: [00:12:11] what do you say to someone who's really struggling? Not with just issues of faith, but real identity. I mean, I think for better, for worse, we have to acknowledge that there has been a linking, there has been this narrative that you can only be a person of faith and be a Republican for specifically in the Christian community.

You can only be a Christian and a Republican. And I think when you've been taught that and went it, it seeps into your narrative trying to untangle that is really really hard. And so what would you say to someone who's changed their party registration or thinking about voting Democrat for the first time and supporting the Biden Harris campaign?

Like how do they walk that path? If they're struggling with that really deep level of identity? 

Josh Dickson: [00:13:00] That's a great question. You know, it's a question that I had asked myself a lot, as I mentioned earlier. I was raised in a very conservative, conservative environment and was raised in an environment that led me to think that, um, being Republican was more aligned, uh, to, to my faith largely just out of socialization and I think it's really, really important for everyone to say, what are the values that are deeply important to me, into my community. Um, and, and that I think are actually in alignment with, um, the kind of core tenants of my faith. I think for me, those values are. You know the idea of a Mago day that we're all created in the image of God.

Um, I think those values are, uh, you know, loving our neighbor as ourselves, um, in alignment with the greatest commandment. I think those values are, you know, thinking about how can we work to uproot those systems of injustice. Um, those walls of oppression that, um, That have been put up and that are holding way too many people well back from reaching their full God given potential.

And, you know, I think when I look at the different choices that were presented with this election, uh, I think it's really, really clear. Which side aligns with those values a lot more, um, both in their personal lives and in the agenda they're putting forward. Um, you know, I see a ticket that is really committed to racial equity.

I see a ticket that is committed to addressing systemic racism at the root, um, and ensuring that, you know, we're doing everything possible to, uh, sure that everyone, um, who come regardless of their racial found their socioeconomic status, their geography, you know, has opportunity, has opportunity to. To work hard, um, and reach their full potential in our country.

Everyone has equal and equitable access to healthcare. Uh, everyone has access to a great education, uh, uh, folks, um, who are, you know, coming from different countries, uh, seeking asylum, uh, have the chance to find refuge here. Um, and you know, you have that on one side and then the other side, you have an administration that.

Puts kids in cages, um, that separates children from their families that seeks to put up walls rather than tear them down. Um, that politicizes public health, you know, contributing in some major ways to the crisis that we find ourselves in right now, to all the folks who have lost their lives to folks who've lost, loved ones.

Um, and even in some of the reporting that we saw today, um, you know, Downplayed the pandemic purposefully. Um, for political reasons and, you know, so across the board, I think that you just have such a stark contrast values, uh, that are yeah important to us as people of faith. For me, the, the values that, um, I'm called towards.

Uh, and I think, you know, what I would say to other folks is that that really should be how we are evaluating, um, Who we're supporting. And elections is really asked this question of like, who is going to live out the values that we're called to, um, as people of faith, uh, the most in the policies they pursue, uh, in the and culture that they help shape, um, and in the way that they lead.

Uh, and I think, you know, for me, uh, we couldn't have a clearer choice of who's aligned with those values and a selection. 

Beth: [00:16:34] I'm going to do the dangerous thing of trying to represent a perspective that I do not hold. So we have a significant group of listeners who I respect very much who prioritize abortion in their voting.

Maybe it's not the only priority they have, but it is a high priority and they are sincerly  convicted that any legal abortion in the United States is, is morally abbhorent and that it's important for them to vote their values on that issue. What kind of conversation would you have with those listeners and voters?

Josh Dickson: [00:17:14] Yeah. Um, you know, this is definitely not an issue that the vice president takes lightly. Uh, we know that it's a complicated one and folks come at it from a lot of different places and have a lot of views on it. The vice president is someone who uh, deeply respects life, uh, and you know, throughout all of his policies, um, throughout his career has been someone, you know, sought to expand healthcare, access and equity.

He, you know, obviously someone who fought for the violence against one that he's someone who fought for the passage of the affordable care act. He's someone who has fought to expand, um, maternal health resources. Yeah. To expand access to adoption, um, to fight human trafficking, uh, to, um, You know, do so many different things that help our, uh, that, that country human flourishing, um, in major ways.

And is he pro choice? Yes. He believes in upholding the law of the land, uh, as stipulated and Roe and in Casey. Um, at the same time, you know, he's someone who is deeply committed to common, good values across the board. Uh, he has, uh, an approach, um, to, uh, Pursuing those values that I think is comprehensive.

And that really showcases, you know, a well thought out way. Um, in our, uh, in, in, in our pluralistic society, um, to, uh, ensure that everyone has a chance to reach their fullest potential. And, you know, he's someone who is going to continue to pursue that and is going to continue to fight for issues, uh, that are related, um, to folks having a chance to reach their fullest potential like racial equity, um, like immigration.

Like education, uh, like minimum wage and things along those lines. So, no, I think across the board, um, many voters are gonna come up with selection from different places. Some folks are going to, uh, zone in on one issue or another, but on the whole, we think that most, most voters are, are multi-issue voters.

And most voters are going to look at this, uh, election as kind of a referendum on, on values and on who we want to be as a country. Um, and I think that's really the, the major question here. Um, you know, as we battle for the soul of our nation, uh, w two very different visions on the table. Um, and. I think that voters have to ask themselves, Hey, you know, um, uh, whose America do I want to live in?

Uh, and, and who do I think is really gonna pursue the common good and work to bend the moral arc of the universe, more towards justice, as opposed to away from it. And, you know, and I think that, um, the Biden Harris ticket is clearly fighting for those values much more so than what we see from the current administration.

Sarah: [00:19:47] I think what's hard is you can feel that in your heart, you can feel that in your soul and you can still be in conversation with people who feel very differently than that. So, you know, what advice do you give to people as they go out and they feel convicted to share or ask directly who they're voting for, and then getting these tough conversations where they're called names or their faith is attacked because they've chosen to vote in specifically for approach wise candidate.

Josh Dickson: [00:20:16] Yeah, thanks. So questions and I get it. I can empathize with that perspective a lot. Um, given what I've shared about my own background and the community that I grew up in. And, you know, I think that the most important thing is to first start by listening to people, um, and to hear people out and to hear where they're coming from and.

Why they hold certain views and, um, give them a chance to sort of share that. Uh, and then I think, you know, a lot of it is around just authentically sharing your own story, um, about where you're coming from. And, uh, not necessarily seeking to convince people all the time, but just again, to get to understand people, you know, I think seeking, understanding, um, and doing so with grace empathy is, is really the most important thing.

Uh, cause usually people's minds aren't changed by, you know, a back and forth on social media. Um, it's more so getting to know people, hearing where they're from, uh, developing deeper senses of empathy, um, and you know, feeling like you're being heard too. And so I think that's the biggest piece of advice that I would have.

And, and that's, uh, that's how we orient towards this in my work. That's how our state teams orient towards this. Um, that's our organizers orient towards this is really starting with a posture of listening, a posture of grace, a posture of seeking to understand, um, and you know, just trying to find common ground where that's possible, uh, and you know, really.

Really seeking to, um, try to find, uh, just ways to, uh, get to know people, um, develop relationships, uh, and really have that be sort of the foundation, um, for, uh, the, you know, diving into some of these tricky conversations. 

Beth: [00:21:50] So I want to shift gears for a second and ask a question that came from our listener, Caitlyn.

Caitlyn says after the events of the last few days and weeks and months and years, I'm beginning to question a lot of the things that I thought I knew about myself and things I thought I knew about those around me. I have been especially disappointed with those in my life who are Christians, but only want to speak out when it's convenient for them, or when they find the perfect Bible verse or quote that meets their narrative.

I have many people in my life who share this sentiment of the racial tension and happenings of the world occur because there's a sin and heart problem and nothing else. While I agree, fundamentally that things need to change within the four walls of homes and within individual hearts, I don't think the conversation ends there.

I saw a quote going around this weekend that said something along the lines of when you see the world  on racism as a battle of the left versus right instead of the kingdom of God versus the kingdom of darkness, then you've made an idol out of your politics. As a religion person, I struggle reading things like this because while I think that we should be praying for the hearts of people to change, I also know that prayers don't change racist policies, and that it takes more than a prayer to make a difference.

I'm wondering where you all land on this and how you would suggest having grace-filled conversations with Christians who feel that the only answer is to pray and wipe their hands clean of everything once they've done that. I feel that the right and left wing divide within the Christian community is getting stronger every day and don't quite know where I fit in anymore.

So Josh would love to hear your reaction to Caitlyn Smith. 

Josh Dickson: [00:23:18] Well, I appreciate that question, Caitlyn and you know, I think that it's a complicated one and I totally understand, you know, where, where you're coming from on that. And it's something that I think a lot of folks are experiencing right now, um, and ask themselves, how can I make a difference?

How can I, uh, be a part of changing hearts and minds in my community, um, in my family and what can I do, um, to play a role in, uh, fighting some of these things at the systemic level as well. And, you know, I think when I look from a personal standpoint, when I orient towards this, uh, I always go back to Luke chapter four, um, in the Bible when Jesus talks about his calling, when he essentially announces his, uh, his ministry, um, after, uh, his time in the wilderness, you know, and, uh, he, you know, he goes into the synagogue and unrolls the scroll.

And he says, um, the spirit of the Lord is on me because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. And I think that that calling and the things that he highlights in there, um, just really stand out to me as a blueprint for us in terms of, you know, what we're called to pursue as people of faith, you know, for me as a Christian.

And I think, um, you know, number one is in my personal relationships, I think for everyone in our personal relationships, uh, you know, is just like, Looking to seek, to understand people looking to yeah. You know, I'm operating in a way where we embody grace, uh, and where we bring our authentic selves and don't shy away from sharing, uh, you know, what our views are and why we hold them, but also doing so in a way that, uh, is focused on seeking to understand, um, and, uh, is, uh, embedded with empathy.

But I think we're also called, um, to really live into this idea of, of, um, fighting for, uh, for, um, racial justice fighting for multiple fronts, um, uh, in a way that is really. Centered in the idea of, um, pursuing reconciliation, pursuing, uh, re a redemptive approach, uh, to, to society, um, pursuing these ideals and these values, um, that uphold the inherent human dignity of everyone, uh, and that ensure people do have the chance to reach their God given potential.

And I think that the way that we've lived into that, the way we are getting involved in our communities, uh, to let people know that we are boating, um, uh, telling people how to register to vote, um, getting more people involved in that way is really, really important because elections do have major consequences.

I think also the ways in which we get involved in community efforts, um, to fight systemic racism and to fight for equality and opportunity at the local level makes a really big difference. I think people see that when we live into that, um, I think the ways in which we, um, uh, just are, uh, are there like show up for the people around us makes a huge difference. Um, and so I think that on the whole, um, the way that we live here, uh, and the way that we should showcase those commitments, uh, is really how, um, we recruit more people uh, to join us in that, um, and to join us in pursuing those things that I think are such a core part of our calling as Christians.

And I think that that really is the most powerful way, um, for us, uh, to be, um, to be folks who very much embody those core ideals, uh, that Jesus talks about, um, uh, in his calling and Luke chapter four, uh, and the ways that we really pursue a redemptive and transformative, uh, vision for the future. 

Sarah: [00:27:04] I love the phrase embedded with empathy.

I love that. I want to you, I'm going to steal that, Josh, thank you so much for helping us talk through this and walk that tension between, you know, fighting for what we know is right. And being, like you said, embedded with empathy, with those around us, who might not feel the same. I think that's you articulated that really well.

Thank you so much for coming on our show. 

Josh Dickson: [00:27:27] Thanks for having me on and thanks everyone for listening in and, you know, just look forward to getting a chance to work with people and connect with people through the different things that we're doing. So definitely check us out. Um, uh, Joebiden.com backslash faith and, uh, we'll uh, look forward to the next time.

Sarah: [00:27:54] And then the other thing we wanted to share is a message from Amy. Because Amy's on the other side of this journey, she wrote us and said that when her and her husband first got married, she left her denomination for his, and they were really different and it was a huge change. And in the past year, he's become agnostic and she's found herself in grief and struggling with this part in their relationship and just in their faith journey overall.

 She says, I found that people I know who are Christians, especially our particular denomination have not handled the pandemic and systemic racism in ways that I can agree with. Between my husband leaving the faith, the examples of others, not being able to attend church, it has made me say, does it even matter?

Especially with going to church.  I think, I believe in God still, but I'm struggling with what that will look like after the pandemic. I've enjoyed not going to church every Sunday and found such peace in staying home. I don't know that I feel like I belong in this denomination anymore, but at the same time, I don't know that I want to try another one either.

She said I would like to commemorate some big changes I've made. I have always wanted to dye my hair blue and get my nose pierced, but never did it as did not align with my conservative Christian values and my church and I was afraid of being judged. In February prior to COVID I finally did it for my 36th birthday and I absolutely love both and have maintained the dark blue hair.

Along with that, my political beliefs had been very rooted in those religious influences while feeling like they were wrong. For example, my religious influence said that homosexuality was a sin, but in my heart I felt that that didn't align with what I believed of God. The one thing COVID allowed me to do is to let those influences go a bit and align my politics where my heart says I should be. 

To top it off, in April I began the steps to lose all the weight I gained in five pregnancies in 10 years. First of all, what up to five pregnancies in 10 years, Amy, way to go. She said, I'm down seven pounds so far. I feel like my confidence has grown in leaps and bounds by a lot, allowing myself to be authentic.

I am definitely still in a season of self discovery and there are challenges through it, but I'm so proud of myself for taking the time and effort to finally take care of what I need and do what is right for me and my family.

Here, Here Amy! God I love, I love to think of Amy and her blue hair and nose ring out there like stepping authentically into her own vaules.  I know that so many of you just like we talked about with Caitlyn and with Josh struggle with this break. This identity level change is incredibly difficult and people like Amy and all of you out there that are doing it that are standing up and say, I know I've always been this way, but I don't think it's right and I'm going to be something different. That is really couragous and that is really powerful.  

Beth: [00:30:14] and it won't be static either. I think there's so many like journeys around the bend with faith and what nourishes you at different moments in your life. I felt the kind of freedom from church during the long hiatus from it that I took. And then I reached a point where I've really valued the ritual of church and I can see myself going in and out of that at different stages for the rest of my life.

 I approach it differently now than I did when I was growing up. But there are aspects of taking communion that just mean more to me than they did before I took an extended vacation from going to church every Sunday. 

I also feel like there's something precious and sacred about a lot of not knowing. It makes me feel closer to whatever God is to express that I don't know. I've been thinking about this a lot because since I shared on Pantsuit Politics, that my mom, um, has been hospitalized with COVID-19, I've gotten so many messages that are like I dont really pray anymore, or I'm not sure what prayer means but here are all my good thoughts. 

And those messages mean a lot to me because I'm not sure either. I mean, here's what I think, I don't think it's like God is sitting around like, Oh, I could intervene and make the situation better, but let's see if enough people ask.

That's not what I think is happening at all.  Agreed. I do think there is an energy to lots of hearts sending good love to someone that matters. I don't know that it matters to the ultimate outcome for that person, but I sure think it matters to the experience they have while they're going through something hard and maybe it matters to the outcome in way that I don't understand.

But I dont know and I think there's something sacred about that not knowing. I think it makes it almost more precious like I don't want to be part of a faith that sends me out hunting for signatures essentially on good things happening in life. It's all to me, much fuzzier than that. But I like being in that fuzzy place.

I consider myself both like extremely ecumenical and Unitarian, and that helps me see more beauty than I saw when I thought that I had the right answers to everything. 

Sarah: [00:32:45] So we are with you. We love all of you out there struggling to ask the right questions instead of believing that you have all the right answers. I thank you for joining us for another episode of the nuanced life. We will be back in your ears on Friday and until then, keep it nuanced, y'all. 

The Nuanced Life is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: [00:33:52] Alise Knapp is our managing director. 

Sarah: [00:33:54] Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth: [00:33:57] Learn more about our work by visiting Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com to sign up for our weekly newsletter and following Pantsuit Politics on Instagram.