Sharon McMahon on Unsung American Heroes

We’re joined by Sharon McMahon, podcaster and author, to discuss her new book, The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans Who Changed the Course of History, from the Founding to the Civil Rights Movement.

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EPISODE RESOURCES

• Why Are Groceries So Expensive Right Now? (Pantsuit Politics Premium)

• SHARON McMAHON (@sharonsaysso) (Instagram)

• The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans Who Changed the Course of History, from the Founding to the Civil Rights Movement

• The Small and the Mighty Book Tour · Sharon McMahon

• Why I changed my mind about volunteering (Vox)

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:00:29] Thanks for joining us today. We are delighted to be joined by someone that lots of you know and love already, Sharon McMahon. Sharon is a former history teacher who now does civic education online. She first grew her audience on Instagram, but now has her own podcast and has written a book. And she joined us today to talk about her work and her book. And we can't wait to share that conversation with you.  

Beth [00:00:48] Before we do, on a recent episode, I quickly and somewhat offhandedly talked about why groceries are expensive. And quite a few of you said, I would like to hear more about that. And fortunately, we have a show called More to Say where I do just say more about things that are interesting to me and hopefully to you as well. So on More to Say this week I discussed why groceries are so expensive, and many of you said, I wish I could share this episode. I wish it were available to everyone. Patron has a new feature where if you are not a regular More to Say listener, you are able to buy just this episode for $5. It's a great way to support our work and also to get access to things that you are worried about missing. So if you would like to hear why groceries are so expensive, from my perspective, we will put a link in the show notes for you to purchase just that episode. Or we would love for you to join us regularly for More to Say for $15 a month.  

Sarah [00:01:39] We also want to invite you to join us for the vice presidential debate on Tuesday, October 1st. Just like the presidential debates, we will be in the chats on our Patreon community and our Substack community. So if you want to watch along with us and hear our reactions, heartaches, please sign up for those premium communities and join us on Patreon or Substack. Next up, Sharon McMahon.  

[00:02:01] Music Interlude.  

[00:02:09] Sharon, welcome back to Pantsuit Politics.  

Sharon McMahon [00:02:13] It's so fun to see you. It's always fun. We could just literally get on here and chit chat about any old thing.  

Sarah [00:02:18] People would love that shit. They would love it.  

Sharon McMahon [00:02:21] They would love it.  

Sarah [00:02:23] Y'all, you didn't get that. We didn't press record when we were chit chatting. Just for us. We like to keep some things just for us.  

Sharon McMahon [00:02:29] You've got to hold some things close to the vest.  

Sarah [00:02:31] That's exactly right. All right. I want to talk about The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans who Changed the Course of History from the Founding to the Civil Rights Movement. Okay. Here's what I kept thinking about. During the Joe Biden's summer...  

Sharon McMahon [00:02:47] Joe Biden's summers. Is that what we're calling this summer of 2024?  

Sarah [00:02:51] Joe Biden summer. I could not stop thinking about this article I read where it was in the midst of a lot of people talking off the record. Lot of representatives and listeners saying how they felt off the record, but not on the record or not pressuring publicly until, of course, Nancy Patricia Pelosi. But before that happen. And there is an article where someone was quoted as saying, well, there's a reason that Profiles in Courage is so short. And I thought about that constantly all summer. And then I read this book and I thought, Sharon is saying Profiles in Courage should not be so short. That it's not just about people in power who can't do the right thing. It's about people with very little power and what they choose to do. And it was like your book was in conversation with this quote I had in my head all summer about how many profiles in courage are there really out there? So how did you see through this idea that it's only a few people with a lot of power who are profiles in courage? Because I feel like your book is making a very different argument.  

Sharon McMahon [00:03:51] What a cool question. I love that question. And thanks for thinking of The Small and Mighty even in the same context of Profiles in Courage. Like at the same time ping ponging around in your brain at the same time. I'll take it. That's so nice. Well, I just think it's very easy for people-- I know both of you are very familiar with this. You've written about this in your own work. That it is so easy for people to feel bogged down, overwhelmed, discouraged that what they do doesn't matter. Like voting doesn't do anything. That's how so many people feel. And of course, we can point to a million examples how voting does do something. But nevertheless, especially if you live in a solidly red or blue state and you may be the opposite, it feels like what is my one little contribution to democracy? Even doing it just seems like it's futile. And so I have always loved exploring these ideas of people who have done something extraordinary, who did not have access to the reins of power, who did not have the elected titles, who are not traditionally written about in the history books, who do not have the marble busts in a capital somewhere.  

Sarah [00:05:11] But they should.  

Sharon McMahon [00:05:12] But they should. But they should. We keep hearing about the same cadre of people. Like I am kind of George Washingtoned out at this point. You know what I mean? He's great. He's wonderful in some ways and others not so much. But we hear about George Washington literally every single year of our lives as schoolchildren. And he's worth studying. I'm not saying we should cut him out of the curriculum. There are so many people. And these are just a small handful. So many people have done extraordinary things without money, without title, without power. And I think now is the time. If not now, when? Their stories need to be told.  

Sarah [00:05:52] That's right.  

Beth [00:05:54] I feel like we are living in a resurgence of patriotism moment because of elections, because of the Olympics for lots of reasons. And there is a thread running through these stories of real patriotism. This is a great country. It has not been great to everyone. It has not lived up to all of its promises. But it is a great nation where people can do extraordinary things without access to resources and power. And I noticed some sentiment-- and maybe I'm projecting Sharon, but I noticed some sentiments throughout the book that I share, which is a little bit of frustration with everything is awful as an ethos. If you tell, for example, the story of Charles Sumner being beaten after giving an abolitionist speech in Congress and you say, "So please stop telling me that things are the worst because no one's being beaten within an inch of life in Congress." So I will love to hear how you made those choices to sort of highlight America's greatness and the striving of people within that context against a backdrop especially where you have built this huge following on Instagram where the theme is sort of everything is awful and we prove how great we are by talking about how awful it is.  

Sharon McMahon [00:07:05] This is a question I'm asked frequently. Is this the worst it has ever been? Because all you're surrounded with 24 hours a day is how terrible the world is. There's famine here, there's war there. There's a corrupt politician over here. This guy is spending all his campaign funds on only fans. This one has four bars in his jacket pocket. It just seems like all we are inundated with is constant bad news. It's just everything's going to hell in a handbasket 24 hours a day. That's how it seems when you are when you try to plug in. So I think when you study history, it's very obvious that this is not even close to the worst it's ever been. In fact, in many ways, this is the best it's ever been.  

Sarah [00:07:55] It is the best.  

Sharon McMahon [00:07:57] It's the best it's ever been in many ways. That's not to say that there aren't significant areas of improvement needed, because there are. But the idea that somebody is being beaten on the floor of Congress and people are being actively at that very moment enslaved and their choice is I would rather beat you within an inch of your life to maintain my right to enslave people, we have made significant progress from that point in history. That's, again, not to say we don't have more progress that needs to be made, but that's just one example of how far we have come in the march for the long road in the march for equality, for civil rights for everybody. I really reject this idea that this is the worst it's ever been. Anybody who is positioning themselves as this is the worst it's ever been is either profiting significantly off of that sentiment. They make money by scaring you. They make money by making you feel this is a terrifying time. And the only way you can possibly save America from the brink is to watch my program tonight at eight.  

Sarah [00:09:11] That's so true.  

Sharon McMahon [00:09:11] That's an idea that people make a lot of money off of.  

Sarah [00:09:13] They also sometimes want you to buy actual gold bars.  

Sharon McMahon [00:09:15] They do. Gold bars, they want you to buy Bibles. They want you to buy their merch. They want you to subscribe. Yes, they make a lot of money off of selling you this idea of doom and gloom because the opposite actually doesn't sell. Based on how our brains work, we pay attention to things that are scary because we want to not get eaten by wolves. That's how our brains are set up. And so we're not like, "Oh my gosh, subscriber," when a new bridge is built, right? We're not like, "Oh my gosh, the roads got paved. Subscribe. Buy the merch." That's just not how things are hardwired. So the feedback loop and the money loop is contingent upon scaring people and making it seem like this is the worst it's ever been. And you can save America by buying this thing today.  

Sarah [00:10:06] I always tell people I have a type one diabetic child. I'm not going backwards in a time machine, y'all. It's on the most basic level. Look at your female ancestors; if all your children are still alive, you are an exception. My great grandmother buried nine of 11 children. So many of the women in this book you talk about they bury this child and they bury this child. Like it's just common experience.  

Sharon McMahon [00:10:34] Yes, the fact that your child has a reasonable expectation of living to adulthood with proper, modern medicine is kind of a miracle. A hundred years ago, we could not even conceive of that. We didn't know how any of these things worked. When people say we need to go back to the good old days or whatever, I'm like, "Which days were those?" Please elaborate. Which days are we returning to? The one where you will die from a tooth infection or knock out your own tooth with a rock like Harriet Tubman had to do? Which days are we returning to? Elaborate.  

Sarah [00:11:13] Well, and let me tell you. The other thing, as I was reading this book, and it just so happened that we had done an interview with an expert at the Brookings Institute about school choice, and we were talking about the public school system and what we're doing. And this is not a lot of history I've read. And so in my head the public school system was just I guess Congress all decided that this was an American value and then we passed a law and then we all had public schools. Even though I think if you pressed me, I would have said that's probably not how it rolled out. Reading your book, I was like, okay. I think Sharon says, “You know who deserves a whole section in the Profiles of Courage of every section of American history? Teachers.”  

Sharon McMahon [00:11:57] Teachers.  

Sarah [00:11:57] Teachers deserve some mad credit. I was reading this and I can get a little emotional because I thought, man, this was just a fight like everything else. This thing we swim in, this idea that every citizen is a citizen in part because they have entered into this institution and this value system. But there were people, primarily women, out there saying this is how we're going to live this value system. This is why this value system matters. And an enormous personal sacrifice, enormous personal sacrifice went and lived this value that you are a citizen because you are educated beside your fellow citizens on the basics in order to give you a fuller life and a fuller avenue of participation in our democracy. So tell us-- I feel like I should make you pick your favorite, but I feel like that's probably like picking children-- the teachers you profile in this book?  

Sharon McMahon [00:12:57] Yeah. This idea that teachers, of course, are still the backbone of society. Teachers and nurses. Like, where would we be without these two groups of people? And, of course, we all have important work. And this is not to diminish anybody else's work, but these two groups of unsung heroes, teachers and nurses-- and I, of course, have been a teacher for most of my adult life in various forms. So I have a lot of knowledge about the educational system. And I've admired both of you for being like we signed up to be substitute teachers. And hats off to both of you. Such a needed contribution and such a great way for people to be able to contribute to their communities in very impactful ways. But the idea that education was an opportunity that was extended to everybody, that was not real. In fact, people were systematically excluded from educational opportunities. Not unintentionally excluded, not excluded by their own choices, systematically excluded from the opportunity to become educated by law.  

[00:14:03] Some places in the state of Virginia, like Prince Edward County, Virginia, said rather than share the schools with everybody, if the Supreme Court says we have to integrate, instead of doing that, we are just going to close the public schools and we're going to give tuition vouchers to white students and black students will get nothing. They will get nothing. And the schools in Prince Edward County, Virginia, were closed for five years in the 1950s and into the 1960s. We're not talking about 1825. This is the 20th century openly defying the Supreme Court, just closing the public schools for five years because they would rather nobody have anything than have to share it. And because they knew what the effects would be, that the white students would be able to access education and the black students would remain uneducated. And they preferred that choice over having to share the public schools. And some teachers said that's not how this is going to go down. We are not going to allow black Americans to remain uneducated. And the efforts of a very small number of teachers continue to impact millions of people today.  

[00:15:30] The descendants of the people who were educated by teachers who just kept trying today number in the tens of millions, truly in the tens of millions. And we're talking about the efforts of a very, very small number of people who have impacts on tens of millions of people. At no time did they ever think to themselves, I have this plan. Here's my points, A through Z plan, let's begin to implement the plan. Let's ask the bureaucracy how they feel about the plan. Let's get funding for the plan. Let's get permission for the plan. No, they just started doing stuff. And this idea that you need to have a plan and VC funding and you need to get all these permissions, that is not how a meaningful change has ever happened in the United States. It's not people with a plan riding in on a white horse. And I think too often Americans today are still waiting for a person with a plan on a white horse to come in and tell us what the plan is and to begin implementing the plan.  

Sarah [00:16:31] Our real motto is forgiveness, not permission.  

Sharon McMahon [00:16:35] Honestly, they would never have received permission if they waited for permission to do things. So I love the idea that you don't have to have a grand master plan, that you can just start doing things. You can start making a difference where you are with the resources available to you in this moment. You don't need $20 million to throw at this problem. You can just start signing up to be a substitute teacher. You can just start doing stuff with the resources available to you and trust that that will make a difference.  

[00:17:08] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:17:17] Sarah sent me an article this week from Vox that we'll link in the notes about how the millennial understanding of systemic change has bummed us out to the point where we don't believe in individual change any more and where we volunteer less than previous generations. And we are prone to thinking I can't make a difference. I'm just one person. And we hear this when we talk to people who have previously not been involved in politics. They think, well, I just can't make a difference. And getting involved feels like an enormous leap because it seems like, well, I must make all the difference. If I'm going to put my efforts here, then I have to fix everything. And so I just wonder, as you explore these individual stories, do you see parallels to actions people are taking today? Where do you see people today doing things without the VC funding and the grand plan, but just showing up and making a difference where they are?  

Sharon McMahon [00:18:16] Yeah, that's such a great point. That I think this mindset, as we become more educated about real history and what power looks like, this mindset of like, well, we know how it's supposed to work and the way that it's supposed to work is X, and I as one single person do not have the ability to impact that thing over there and so consequently, I will do nothing because I can't fix it. I totally agree with you, Beth. That there is this mindset afoot that if I can't fix it all, what's the point?  

Sarah [00:18:49] Yeah. Well, and with climate change, like we tell people, it's the corporate actions that matter. It's not your individual straw. And some of that is true, but it populates. You know what I mean? In a really unhelpful way.  

Sharon McMahon [00:19:01] The people who are continuing to make a difference today are many of the people who are upholding the values of a democratic society where they are. They are the people who are showing up to the Capitol and saying, here's what I believe about gun rights or gun control. But they're also the people who decide I'm going to do for one person what I wish I could do for everyone. I cannot personally end all childhood hunger, but I am going to start a backpack program at my child's school to send children home with food for over the weekend because often their only reliable meal is happening in the school building. Nobody would make an argument-- that backpack program that maybe serves 12 kids in your school, maybe serves 50 kids in your school, nobody would say, gosh, what a waste of time. You have not changed systemic childhood, hunger and poverty. Forget that idea. It's better to let the kids starve now until we can make systemic change. That's a stupid argument to make. The children need to be fed now, and we need to address childhood poverty on a grander scale.  

[00:20:23] Both of those things are needed and necessary. We should not ignore the inequalities in education. We should not ignore the fact that teachers make below a living wage. We should not ignore those systemic issues. But neither should we ignore the children in front of us. And this is a perpetual struggle in US history. You see this especially with people like Booker T Washington and some of the people that I explore in the book, where there was this tension between the systemic issues of the rights of all citizens and people like Booker T Washington and other people who were like, yeah, but we have to educate the kids in front of us now while we are working for systemic change. We can't say it's civil rights and full equality for everybody or it's nothing. What about these hundreds of thousands of children who can't read today? They need to be able to learn how to read so that they can impact the system in the future. So there is both an investment into individuals. This is time and time again throughout history and investment into individuals while working to change the system at large.  

[00:21:37] And that's true of the civil rights movement. Every meaningful movement, the movement of individuals, plus the movement to change the system at large. And we are moving away from caring about investing in individuals on the altar of systemic change. And both are needed. Both are needed. And our ability to impact individuals as a single individual is much greater. We can feel far more empowered if we know that we're helping 12 kids at our school have lunch over the weekend. That feels a lot better. Like I'm actually doing something. Because you are doing something than being like I testified in front of Congress and I got 500 million for childhood hunger. That's a great action, too. But it seems out of reach for most Americans.  

Sarah [00:22:26] Yeah, there are incredibly empowering stories in this book, but there are also some bad actors, obviously. And I'm going to have to request that you tell the story about Franklin Pierce, because I had no idea that Franklin Pierce was such a sad sack. Listen, he's just in that middle group where all their names run together and all their faces run together. But I was like, well, I wish I knew this about Franklin Pierce sooner because his road to the White House and his situation with his wife was wild. So I am going to have to specially request that you share this insight into Franklin Pierce. Even though he is neither small nor mighty.  

Sharon McMahon [00:23:04] I would be happy to because he is perhaps America's most tragic president.  

Sarah [00:23:08] I know. Who knew? You did!  

Sharon McMahon [00:23:09] Truly. So Franklin Pierce's wife hates politics. She's very religious. She feels like politics is a vanity, that you're drawing too much attention to yourself.  

Sarah [00:23:22] Michelle Obama.  

Sharon McMahon [00:23:23] She hates that he's involved in politics and in fact makes him quit Congress because she hates it so much.  

Sarah [00:23:30] Well, and that was kind of surprising to me because you think about the modern politics. But I was like back then, really? Okay. No C-SPAN, no CNN and she was still like, pass.  

Sharon McMahon [00:23:39] Pass. Yes. So she makes him quit Congress and he eventually is nominated by his party to be their nominee for president. And he kind of has to go back to his wife and be like, I'm so sorry, but they want me to run for president. I'm really sorry. Well, she's definitely not happy about this. And they have had it prior to that moment a number of personal tragedies involving the death of their two oldest sons. And they have one son who's left alive. And so the death of two of your three children, that really takes its toll on any person especially their mother. So eventually he gets elected to being the president. And she is just like, I hate everything about this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to be the first lady. I don't want to move back to Washington. She was not about the first lady life at all. He gets elected. And this was during the time when there was a very long delay, back when you would take the president office of the presidency in March instead of January.  

[00:24:45] And they were traveling by train to attend a funeral and their one son, whose name is Benny, was still with them and the train suffers an accident. Like an axle breaks on the train and the train leaves the tracks. And this terrible event occurs in which Benny, their son, had been standing up and was badly harmed in this accident. In fact, so badly harmed that he is nearly decapitated during the accident. And Franklin Pierce says it is his life's greatest regret that he could not stop his wife from seeing the body of their nearly decapitated son, who is now their third son to die. So when he takes the office, when he goes to be sworn in as president, his wife does not attend. Now, imagine that scenario today in which your spouse does not attend your inauguration. And people right now are criticizing Tim Walz for going to shake his wife's hand on stage. Like it's so awkward. It's so cringe. He shook her hand like it's a business meeting. So think about how much people criticize every aspect of your relationship, and now imagine any U.S. president being sworn in without their spouse there because their spouse does not approve of the fact that they have been elected.  

[00:26:17] And by the way, he was also a president who refused to swear an oath on the Bible. Also, imagine that today. Also, imagine a scenario in which any president is like, you know what? I don't do swearing an oath on a Bible thing. That's not for me. They would also be harshly criticized for that. So he refuses to swear an oath on the Bible. He affirms his duty to become president. And during his inaugural speech, he's like, listen, y'all, I know you elected me, but things are bad. Things are real bad. You guys are going to have to hold me up because I don't know. His son has been dead for a very short period of time. His wife makes absolutely no public appearances for years. She spends all of her time upstairs at the White House dressed in morning clothes and talking out loud to her dead son. Just the entire scenario is terrible.  

Sarah [00:27:09] Every time I thought it couldn't get worse, it got worse.  

Sharon McMahon [00:27:11] Yes. He developed a very severe problem with alcohol to the point where he does not get renominated by his party because he's an ineffective leader. A drunk is maybe too strong a word, but they didn't use the word alcoholic then. But he has an alcohol problem so much so that not many years after leaving office, he dies of cirrhosis of the liver. That's how serious. As a relatively young man, he dies of cirrhosis of the liver. Not long after leaving the White House, his wife dies. I mean, imagine that scenario today where every single one of the candidate's children are dead, one of them shortly before taking office.  

Sarah [00:27:55] In a tragic train accident.  

Sharon McMahon [00:27:57] Yes. He's nearly decapitated. Your wife is not about it. Doesn't show up. You refuse to swear an oath on the Bible. She's upstairs talking to herself, wearing a black dress for multiple years. You become an alcoholic. The presidents of today, that seems almost tame in comparison.  

Sarah [00:28:19] Well, and it just reminded me that we think we know history. We think we have the high points. We definitely think we understand the presidents. And we probably skip over those guys as they didn't really do anything or live that interesting lives. That's why they all blend together. We know-- what's his name with the three names-- got sick at his inauguration. We all remember that part. But then you read this and you're like, man, there was just entire universes of tragedy and experiences and, like you said, intense politics that we think it's so bad now? I'll never forget watching-- wasn't that long ago. Maybe 15 years ago, I watched a senator (it was someone who'd been there a long time) I can't remember who it was, but he was retiring and he was being interviewed. And he was like, "Look, I know it seems bad, but when I got here, most everybody was a drunk and showed up inebriated."  

[00:29:10] And I know drunk is a disparaging word. It's the word he used. I don't use that word, but it's the word he used. And he was like, they came to work inebriated at the United States Senate pretty regularly. So we've come a long way. We're all fighting, but we're all fighting with our-- since this is about us. And I thought, man, it's just so hard. You can't go back. It's hard to get the perception and start to understand how they thought about things and how they saw things and what that must have been like. And so when I read that, I was like, man, we don't get it.  

Sharon McMahon [00:29:43] Imagine like Joe Biden has had some personal tragedy in his life with the death of his son from cancer. His other son has had drug problems. His previous wife and daughter died. He has experienced some personal tragedy for sure, but not all compressed into the immediate years before taking the office of the presidency.  

Sarah [00:30:08] Or why they are like poor Mary Todd.  

Sharon McMahon [00:30:10] Yes. Or Andrew Johnson showed up to his inauguration as VP with Lincoln, showed up rip roaring drunk to his inauguration. He was so nervous; he spent the entire morning of the inauguration getting increasingly intoxicated. And then when he gets up to give his talk before Congress at the inauguration, the people are like you have got to get this guy off the stage. Get him off the stage. People wrote letters home to their wives like you would not believe what happened with Andrew Johnson. He was like rambling, basically fall down drunk. Lincoln is super embarrassed that this is the guy he's chosen to be his V.P.. So pretty sure no VPs have shown up so drunk that they can barely string together coherent sentences any time in the recent past.  

Sarah [00:31:02] Well, and that's my favorite thing about history, is its capacity to surprise you. I was reading The Economist the other day, and as a throwaway line, they were talking about how London is coming back after the pandemic. Like it's surging in population and stuff. And they're like it's had its challenges like in the 1700s when the city almost failed because everybody was addicted to gin. And I was like, wait, what? What are you talking about? And it's true. This is not gin as we understand gin, it's a very different product. But I started reading it and I was like, wait, what? And it was so highly toxic. Everybody was addicted. The city literally almost just failed; this oldest, biggest historical city. And I love history's capacity to do that. To upend everything you believe is true, everything you believe is possible in a moment like that.  

Beth [00:31:52] When I took corporate law, I think my second year of law school, the professor held up our casebook and said, "What you need to understand is that this is a book of failure. Every corporate law matter that ended up in front of a judge means the lawyers who did the work on the front end failed. Something went terribly wrong and a judge had to get involved." And I think every book about history similarly is a book of choices. What we're being told has been curated for us. I had a hard time recapping each day of the DNC because so much was packed into the five or six hours of programing that we sat through. So I'm always interested in the choices that people make when they write about history. And I'm wondering, as you made the choices of who to feature in this book and what to tell about them, what is something you left on the cutting room floor that you really loved or were really sad to leave out?  

Sharon McMahon [00:32:49] There are a number of things. And the one that I think caused me the most personal angst was actually a story that I really wanted to be able to tell and couldn't. And that is the story of one of the people who's featured in the book. And I won't give away everything that she does do, but I was quite certain and I remain quite certain, that her family was involved in the Underground Railroad. This woman's name is Anna Janes [sp], and I had accumulated what I believe is at least the beginnings of some evidence that her family was involved in this. The proximity matches, the financial resources match, the religious viewpoints match, the views of the world match. She lived in Philadelphia, but they had a country estate. And the country estate they've largely abandoned it. Reports even said that they left food on the table. These people were Quakers, a Quaker family, who really believed in simple living.  

Sarah [00:34:05] No waste.  

Sharon McMahon [00:34:06] Yeah, no waste. That she wouldn't even wear black silk clothes because those were too fancy. And in fact, she judged other Quakers who were wearing silk. You need to wear your cotton clothes because that is simple. Simple life. The idea that they would leave food on the table at their country home where they spent the summers, that doesn't add up. That does not add up. So somebody else had to have been there and had to have exited the property quickly for some reason. And also, why would they leave it unattended for so long? For so many years, this country property just sat kind of unused. And it had been purchased by her father and they had a bunch of kids. And eventually the kids all sort of died off and this one woman is left. And so, to me, I was really, really compelled to try to find the evidence, the smoking gun that the Underground Railroad was using this country property as a stop on the Underground Railroad outside of Philadelphia.  

Sarah [00:35:16] Sounds like a podcast series to me, Sharon. It's not too late.  

Sharon McMahon [00:35:18] Yes, I could put her brothers, this woman's brothers, in the same room with prominent abolitionists like William Still. They belonged to abolitionist societies. They made contributions to them. It just seemed unfathomable to me that they were not involved in some way. And yet, they kept almost no records of anything that they did. They refused to allow things to be named after themselves. They refused to have their large contributions. They wouldn't be interviewed in the newspaper about like, "Wow, you donated all this money to this thing. That's so cool. What do you hope they do with it?" They refused to do that. So they really believed in this sort of biblical edict that don't let the right hand know what the left is doing. Do your giving in secret. And that is how you will be rewarded. They really believed that. So the fact that they would not have kept records about the Underground Railroad is not at all surprising because few records were kept to begin with for safety purposes. And it was even less likely that they would have kept records.  

[00:36:29] So anyway, I spent years, literally years chasing down this thesis that I had that they were involved in the Underground Railroad and ultimately could not come up with a smoking gun that it happened despite me beating this door for so long. And I wanted to sort of tell the story in the book of how do researchers even run down these kinds of leads? What does it take to try to prove something like this? What happens after you've worked on this for three years and you have contacted all the people and you've turned over all the archives? What happens then? And my editors were eventually like you have to cut this. You cannot include this because there is no exciting payoff for the reader, and it's just sort of a disappointment. So there are stories like that where I really, really wanted it to be true. I still think that maybe it is. I cannot say it's not true. I just have not been able to say with surety that I have found the link. Maybe someday I will.  

Sarah [00:37:42] Yeah.  

Sharon McMahon [00:37:42] But that was one that I was like, it pains me. I'm so sorry, but I have to cut this section. I have to cut it even though it's painful.  

Sarah [00:37:50] Well, I want you to find that ultimately.  

Sharon McMahon [00:37:52] I want to find it. I really do.  

[00:37:54] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:38:02] Well, as we wrap up here on Pantsuit Politics, we always like to take an exhale and talk about what's on our mind Outside Politics. So I don't know if you know this, but Beth is a summer person. I'm a winter person. So I'm going to give you a choice, as we are transitioning out of summer into fall and winter. You can either tell us what product, book, movie, song saved your life this summer or what you're most looking forward to with fall and winter. I will give you a seasonal preference as the case is.  

Sharon McMahon [00:38:32] I am a fall and winter person as well, which is why I live in northern Minnesota.  

Sarah [00:38:39] When we were in Chicago, I was like, I need to move north. This is where I belong.  

Sharon McMahon [00:38:42] Don't live up here if you are not about it. If you like, "I love it when it's 99." Then you're living in the wrong place if you live where I live. So I love the cooler weather. I love to layer my clothes.  

Sarah [00:38:55] Don't you love a coat? I love a coat.  

Sharon McMahon [00:38:58] I love a coat. I love a fireplace. I love all the things. Beth is visibly uncomfortable.  

Beth [00:39:03] I think you're both wrong, but I'm listening. It's fine.  

Sharon McMahon [00:39:06] Good tie in. One of the things I'm looking forward to is this big book tour that I'm going on. But I will say it's a big deal. I will say that I'm also slightly terrified to be away from home for five weeks.  

Sarah [00:39:22] Oh, my gosh.  

Beth [00:39:23] That's a long time.  

Sarah [00:39:23] That's a long time.  

Sharon McMahon [00:39:23] Yes. Slightly terrified. Are my dogs even going to remember me when I get back? I'm also missing Minnesota October, which is perhaps one of the best months in the state of Minnesota. October. So that's the sort of trepidation part of it. But the exciting part of it is I will never again have an opportunity to go on a first book tour that is anything like this. These are going to be memories forever.  

Sarah [00:39:54] And October is lovely everywhere. It kind of is. It's a nice month wherever you live. So you'll be good. You'll get to see some leaves changing in other places.  

Sharon McMahon [00:40:06] Yes, so true. And it'll be the experience of a lifetime.  

Sarah [00:40:12] And tell our listeners where they can get all the information about- said book tour.  

Sharon McMahon [00:40:16] It's just at my website. Sharonmcmann.com/book tour. You can find all the ticket info and all of that there.  

Sarah [00:40:21] Well, we're so excited for you.  

Beth [00:40:23] Well, I hope it goes really smoothly for you. Five weeks is a long time. So we'll be just sending you good travel vibes.  

Sharon McMahon [00:40:30] It is. Thank you. No meltdowns at airlines.  

Sarah [00:40:35] You'll roll with it, whatever happens.  

Sharon McMahon [00:40:38] I gave a Ted talk earlier this year over the summer, It hasn't come out yet, but the Ted talk was taped in Montana. And then Montana as I know you know is a small state population wise. The biggest city has like 110,000 people. So it does not have major, major airports. It has an airport, a nice airport, but it only has a handful of airlines. And this was during the most recent Delta meltdown in which all Delta--  

Sarah [00:41:14] Cloud strike. You were in Montana?  

Sharon McMahon [00:41:15] Yes, I was in Montana during cloud strike. That's exactly right. And it was going to be days before we could get on any flight. Days. We ended up driving back to Minnesota from Montana. And even that was a challenge because so many flights were canceled, all the cars were taken. And then to drive it one way from one state to another, they don't allow you to just rent any old car. You have to have a special fleet of cars that you can take to another location. Anyway, we drove all the way back from Montana. So my hope is that we will not have any more major tech meltdowns on the book tour.  

Sarah [00:41:50] Well, that does seem like a pretty reasonable sacrifice to the travel gods. That should at least get you through the rest of this year.  

Sharon McMahon [00:41:56] That's a good point.  

Sarah [00:41:58] You drove from Montana to Minnesota. You laid a lot on the altar, though.  

Sharon McMahon [00:41:59] Good point. I've done my time.  

Sarah [00:42:01] A hundred percent. We're excited for you. Thank you for coming on our show.  

Sharon McMahon [00:42:05] Thank you. It's my pleasure. It's always good to see both of you.  

Sarah [00:42:09] We'd love to have you any time. Yes.  

Sharon McMahon [00:42:10] Likewise.  

Sarah [00:42:10] Thanks to Sharon for joining us today and to all of you for listening. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

[00:42:17] Music Interlude. 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.   Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.   Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family. Ashley Rene. Michelle Palacios. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.