Trump Assassination Attempt and Campaign Chaos

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump

  • Laura Loomer and Donald Trump

  • Springfield, Ohio

  • Outside of Politics: Sleepmaxxing

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EPISODE RESOURCES

A NEWS CYCLE OF DONALD TRUMP

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] We're so glad that you're here today. We are going to talk about a very chaotic political weekend, including an apparent second attempt on former President Donald Trump's life. What is and is not happening in Springfield, Ohio, and the cacophony surrounding the former president's relationship with Laura Loomer, a far right activist and Internet personality. And then Outside of Politics, we're going to talk about America's sleep obsession and whether sleep is another area in which we have overcorrected.  

Sarah [00:00:57] We wanted to remind you that our Spicy Live is taking place this Thursday, September 19th at 8 p.m. Eastern. Apparently, we're going to be competing with Kamala and Oprah. So you'll have to decide who you love the most. No pressure. So if you are on Patreon, you'll get the link in the pantry on feed on Thursday morning. If you are subscribed through Apple Podcast subscription, please make sure and send us your email through the link in the show notes and you'll get an email with the link Thursday morning. We will be including paid Substack people for the first time ever. So if you're a paid subscriber on Substack, you'll get an email with the link on Thursday morning as well. Thursday morning is going to be a happening time in everyone's inboxes and Patreon feeds. If you can't join us live, don't worry, you can use the same link to watch a replay any time after Spicy live on Thursday night.  

Beth [00:01:48] Next up, we will talk about the Sunday assassination attempt. My family and I were leaving a performance of Mamma Mia on Sunday. I got an alert on my phone that the Secret Service prevented what appears to be a second attempt to assassinate former President Donald Trump at his golf course in West Palm Beach, Florida. Sarah, I wondered what you were doing and how you found out about this?  

Sarah [00:02:22] We were in Indianapolis seeing the Indiana fever match off against the Dallas Wings. Drove a long way to see the team, and of course, Caitlin Clark, the feminine nominal. So we were having a great time and I mistakenly picked up my phone (always a mistake) and saw the alert. But it's always such a surreal experience to have such a, again, chaotic breaking news situation and be in a mostly normal social setting. It's not like a gasp swept through the crowd at the fieldhouse. That's not what happened. Just everybody kept cheering on Clark and Mitchell and the whole team. And so it was a little weird.  

Beth [00:03:12] It's hard to know how to process a story that illustrates both a really significant problem, but then also the competence of the Secret Service. The ability for this agent to be looking at bushes on a golf course and spot the barrel of a rifle is incredible. And so there's a lot to celebrate here in addition to being dismayed by political violence being so normal that a gasp did not wash over the stadium in Indiana when this happened.  

Sarah [00:03:45] I was really struck by the satellite images of the golf course on the homepage of The New York Times today that it is in such a densely populated area with these major thoroughfares. And then you sort of see the pictures of how thick the hedgerow and the fencing is around the golf course, and you realize him playing golf is a really tough security issue for the Secret Service to address and solve. And for them to state plainly, look, because he's not a sitting president, we have to use the resources we have-- I mean, you have President Joe Biden saying give him whatever resources are necessary. But I think it's this confluence of a really tough security setting on a golf course, an intensified political environment, a Secret Service that we talked about during the last assassination attempt a mere two months ago that is strapped for resources. And so now, as with so many people, I felt relief that they were able to catch this so quickly and subdue the suspect and keep him safe.  

Beth [00:05:06] And I'm relieved that we already have this task force investigating the July 13th assassination attempt. And they immediately came out on a bipartisan basis in Congress to say, we need a briefing on this. We need to understand what's happening. We need to understand what Congress can do to give the Secret Service the resources it needs. So a lot in this that is really alarming, but also kind of weirdly comforting-- and I think that reflects just the pace at which this election has changed. I feel a little bit more numb about this than I wish I did. But when I look at the timeline of the last couple of months in this race, I feel a sense of grace for my own numbness because it's just been a lot and you have this constant sense that it's going to be a lot more. And I cannot emotionally ride the roller coaster of it as much as I can just try to take in and learn what I can learn.  

Sarah [00:06:06] Yeah. My immediate reaction was not something I guess I'm proud of. I'm not embarrassed. I'm just being honest-- which is we're going to get into the rest of the political weekend. But I thought, don't distract from this. Although, is it just another penny in the bucket of the chaos that comes with him? I'm not trying to blame him for this. But I think there is just this sense of a chaos and a mania that surrounds this election cycle generally. And I was really struck by how different this suspect is from the one in July in age primarily, that you have someone who is like in their early 20s and then someone approaching 60. And so interesting because it felt like the last time there was so little online presence, but this dude has been interviewed by everybody because of his obsession with Ukraine and trying to get former Taliban fighters over defending Ukraine, which is an interesting idea.  

[00:07:15] He's been interviewed by The New York Times, and he's been interviewed by the AP, and he's been interviewed by [inaudible]. And it's like, to me, that is a moment to really pause and go, okay, journalists, let's have a conversation. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but I think there is a moment where it's like, okay, when we're picking interview subjects, are we just picking people who have a manic approach to politics and they make a good story or a good interview, whether or not they are reflective of reality? Because it's hard not to draw that conclusion when you see how many times he's bubbled up, not just in newspapers, but in the law enforcement community as well. He's been arrested several times, found with weapons, didn't seem to affect his ability to get weapons. And we could probably have a conversation about that. But this suspect to me raises a lot of interesting questions on several fronts.  

Beth [00:08:14] I wondered the same thing, seeing that he'd been on television and in all kinds of print media talking about Ukraine. And then I watched the inevitable sort of social media sleuthing and synthesizing what conclusions can we draw about his politics. And really I think it's this human instinct to decide to whom does he belong and whose fault is this? Can we blame the left or the right for it? And I understand why we want to do that. I also think it falls into the category of we keep doing the same things and wishing for different results. If we lament the partisanship in this election and the temperature being so high and then something like this happens and we go, "Well, was he a Democrat or a Republican?" We're just feeding into the same garbage.  

[00:09:08] And we're not helped. When people like Elon Musk weigh in with, well, nobody's even trying to assassinate Biden and Kamala. I'm glad that the pressure was there for Elon to take that down and that hopefully cooler heads are prevailing. I really appreciate that all of the congressional leadership, that President Biden and Vice President Harris, everybody said, there's no place for political violence. We're relieved that he's okay. We're glad the Secret Service did their job. And I just want that to keep filtering down instead of doing this silly like, is he one of yours or one of ours?  

Sarah [00:09:42] I think in the past I have been guilty of doing the same thing around political violence, which is deciding that it is partisan. And I think what we're learning is that it's really about the tenor, the energetic approach to politics than it is about your policy approach. And that's why I'm so angry and frustrated with the critique of Kamala Harris, that she doesn't have enough details when it comes to her political agenda. Because I feel like the question in front of us is less about policy and more are we ready to turn the page on a violent political rhetoric that has infected our politics for the past nine years.  

[00:10:56] And we're going to talk about Springfield in just a moment. It's hard not to lay that at the feet of Donald Trump. The same time I don't want to say like this is your fault, like you're responsible for your own assassination attempt. There is this sense that this is what we've been soaked in from the very beginning, back in 2015, calling on people in the audience to hit and attack protesters at his rallies. That I could shoot someone in Times Square and people would still support me. They hate America. They want to destroy America. And I think we get stuck in this sense of like, well, then it would be Democrats that would try to assassinate him. We get stuck in this policy prism, but it's not what it's about. It's about the way you talk about in your approach.  

[00:11:54] I'm talking about words separate completely from January 6th. The sense that this is a fight. This isn't a debate. This is a fight. And it feels like, well, if you talk about fighting and these high, high stakes for years and years and years and years, then you breed people of all ages who can't see through that mist, who believe that the only solution is violence. Just a fundamental detachment from reality. Often, they're already. I think we miss this with violence of all types. It's not that the rhetoric causes the detachment from reality, it's that the detachment from reality is there and the rhetoric feeds it in very dangerous ways. And that's what feels true for me as I look at this man and his previous statements and voting and interviews.  

Beth [00:12:58] Yeah. This morning I had a similar thought that if I were just reading about him in a vacuum, if he had committed a crime that wasn't political, what I would see here is a person who is seeking his own hero's journey and wants it to be a very dramatic one. And that's not uncommon when we look at people who do outrageous acts of violence like this or attempt outrageous acts of violence like this. What I think is noteworthy in this particular moment is exactly what you said, that our political climate has become an outlet for the expression of that kind of unhealthy energy. And we keep reinforcing the idea that it's them against us. Even the fundraising email that the Trump campaign quickly sent out after this has that tenor. There are people who will do anything to stop us. Here we all are engaged in battle together. And this was a skirmish in that battle as though it's appropriate and part of what's going on here. And I do find it just really difficult to figure out how to say I am so sorry that people are shooting at Donald Trump, they should not. I wish for his safety and his well-being. And also be really honest about the stakes of this election, how we got here and the way that he fuels a very aggressive approach to politics that has real world consequences beyond him, but also for him.  

Sarah [00:14:37] Yeah, that helps me think through my response and my immediate emotional reaction, which was don't distract from the chaos. But then Griffin was like, what are you talking about? This is just more of the chaos. Because we'd had this, what, four or five days since the debate that had just spiraled out of control, particularly within his own campaign. First, we had Laura Loomer and everyone blaming her because I think it was a combination of her being at the debate and as a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, attending the 9/11 memorial as his guest. That really pushed people over the edge to where you had a lot of people saying out loud some things I can only assume that had been whispers within the MAGAverse up until that point, which is that they have a more than professional relationship.  

Beth [00:15:31] I have felt strangely sad about this Laura Loomer story. I was trying to piece out for myself why I feel so sad about it. And I think part of it is that I have two daughters. And while I have no affection for Laura Loomer whatsoever-- and if you don't know who we're talking about this is a right wing Internet personality who has made herself famous in part by saying things like 9/11 is an inside job and you can probably fill in a lot of blanks from there on what she believes and how she expresses herself. Well, I have no affection for her. I hate the assumption that a young woman who is part of an older man's sphere of influence, we automatically assume that there's a sexual relationship. I hate that. I am also just deeply sad that the atmosphere around Donald Trump makes almost anything possible, likely and relevant to the campaign. Because whatever their relationship is, and I have no idea, we know that the people surrounding Donald Trump quickly go from admirer, supporter, to advisor, to on the public payroll if he wins the election.  

[00:16:55] We know the type of people that he hired in his last White House, and I think we can make some pretty good guesses about the type of people he will hire in his future White House. We also know from intensive reporting over a period of four years and from his own statements, that even people who don't go on the payroll, he is on the phone with seeking advice and counsel all the time. So it is relevant that she has these views and that they surround him. And then it is the upside down that we're blaming her for that. The best thing I've read about this came from Sam Stein writing for The Bulwark, and he said she would have been 17 or 18 when he started pushing the birther conspiracies about President Obama. So if anything, maybe people ought to be concerned about the influence Donald Trump has had on Laura Loomer instead of the opposite.  

Sarah [00:17:47] Yeah, there was that big piece on The Apprentice and the role it played in legitimizing Donald Trump. And I was so struck by the part where they talked about going to his office and it was musty and rundown and his desk was not filled with any evidence of actual corporate management. There were no computers, there were no files, there were no reports. It was covered in reporting about him and his personal life. So I thought, yeah, of course, his approach to presidential campaigns and those who surround him would still be based solely on perceptions of him, personal reporting about him. And if she can speak that language in a way that suits him, then she would-- I don't really want to say rise up the ranks because I don't think ranks is a good way to describe Donald Trump's campaign.  

[00:18:58] I was also really struck by reading John Holman's reporting from yesterday before the assassination attempt, and he was talking about how Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles, the managers of the campaign-- and we've had this ongoing conversation-- that they're the professionals. That they were going to professionalize the Trump campaign and rein him in and get him under control. But he was really frustrated because he was being told trust the professionals, trust the professionals and the professionals missed completely the possibility that Joe Biden would step down. And I read that and I thought, you know what, fair. Fair that he's mad about that. Fair that he's, like, why should I trust these political professionals when they missed this massive upending possibility that has changed everything. So why wouldn't I listen to the people on the fringes because the professionals got it wrong.  

[00:19:51] And it's hard to argue with that a little bit. If anybody should have seen the possibility that Joe Biden would step down, it should have been the political professionals, right? In theory. And so I was just thinking about that he functions so much on flattery and seeking opinions that make him feel good, that there is never anything on the desk. There's no reporting. There's no data. There's no polling. That it is just who can tell me what I want to hear and who do I get to be mad at if things aren't going my way? That when you start thinking about Laura Loomer through that lens, it makes perfect sense that someone who is on the fringes of even Marjorie Taylor Green's political universe could get close to him and then lead us to a place where he's on a debate stage saying that Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, are eating pets. That's how you get there. That's how.  

Beth [00:20:55] It goes to the fundamental reason that I will never vote for Donald Trump. He is correct that the professionals-- whether you're talking about his campaign managers now or folks that he brought into the White House to work for him-- are not loyal to him. They are loyal to the work. The John Kellys, the H.R. McMasters, the James Comeys, the people he despises now were loyal to the office, not to him. And loyalty to him is what he cares about. And so I understand, too, why he trusts a Laura Loomer over those types of professionals. But that is also, for me, the central problem with having him hold any kind of office in public service.  

[00:21:45] Music Interlude.  

[00:21:54] So let's talk about that poor Springfield, Ohio. I almost hate to even say the name of the community because of what it has endured. We've talked before about how awful it is when you become national news. And I feel so much for this community.  

Sarah [00:22:09] And that's the emotion I felt so much over the weekend and throughout the course of this story. They just doubled down. J.D. Vance went on CNN and said sometimes you got to lie so people pay attention to what you want them to pay attention to. And I thought, does everybody remember this? I know you remember the egg prices. I hear a lot about the egg and milk prices. Do you remember this? Do you remember that he can't keep his mouth shut and so schools have to get shut down because people's lives are endangered? Does everybody remember that? I do. I remember it vividly. I remember this over and over and over again, that he cannot exhibit the tiniest amount of self-control. And so every day Americans are tossed into this disaster zone where there are real incredible threats against them and their communities. And that is what has happened to the poor people of Springfield, Ohio. And it's infuriating. I don't miss this. You know Gladiator 2 is coming out this summer, and that's what I keep hearing in my head. Are you not entertained? Is this not what you want, for more Donald Trump? Because this is what you're going to get.  

Beth [00:23:26] It's especially depressing to me that J.D. Vance really fueled this. Because the dynamic that we had last time was Donald Trump doing this kind of thing and Mike Pence being in the background as a reassuring force for everybody, just reassuring us that, no, there's somebody normal here. He's going to say what he says. He does the show. He entertains you. But don't worry, the rest of us have it. Maybe it's good that it's out in the open this time that nobody has it. That if anything, J.D. Vance does this even more effectively than Donald Trump does. Even more effectively. And the results are heartbreaking. I mean, a hospital went in lockdown today before we started recording because of bomb threats to this community where, yes, a whole lot of people from Haiti came, but they came legally. And if you read what CEOs are saying and town officials, they have been excellent additions to the workforce in Springfield and to the community. It's been hard. It has been hard.  

[00:24:36] It is hard when you have a huge surge of population growth at one time. But I did feel really comforted by seeing the Republican governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine, pushing back hard against this and saying we need this. This will help this community in the long run. We will get through the hard stuff and this will be positive. But it can't be positive if our senator is out there making up stories about the impacts of it in this community. And by the way, just in case you haven't seen it, I want to make sure everyone hears that the woman who initially posted on Facebook about a neighbor's cat being taken has said it didn't happen. I didn't expect it to explode like this. I'm filled with regret. I've taken my children out of school. I'm afraid for our safety. I'm afraid for the safety of people from Haiti and this community. It is a disaster.  

Sarah [00:25:30] As if the people of Haiti haven't been through enough.  

Beth [00:25:33] Yes!  

Sarah [00:25:35] I don't know how well-versed people are in the situation in Haiti, but it is tragic. It is tragic and impossibly hard and there is enormous suffering. So for the people of Springfield to get away from that, to find a place to work and contribute and to be treated this way by this man makes me sick. And you know what? I appreciate the words of Mike DeWine and the Republican mayor of Springfield, and I would appreciate them even more if they followed up with "And that's why I will not be voting for Donald Trump and J.D. Vance." That's what I'm waiting to hear. Can we all be done? Can we just be done? I don't want to do this again. It was terrible the first time when people were stuck in airports because he mouthed off about Muslim immigrants. And when children were ripped from the arms of their parents at the border because he can't stop fear mongering about immigration. I don't want to go back there. It was so harmful. People's lives were affected. And the fact that people are still considering voting for this chaos agent is making me want to lose my mind.  

Beth [00:27:02] Yeah. And I'm just having such a hard time because I feel myself thinking it's really important to lower the temperature. It's really important to lower the temperature. I don't want anybody being shot at. I don't want bomb threats being called into a small Ohio community. And so how do I clearly say, I want Donald Trump to live a safe and healthy life? I want that for the rest of us, too. And I don't want him to be the president because he and the people who aspire to remain in his inner circle will say anything to advance their own quest for power. And that's all it's about. It's not about anybody else. It's just about their own power. And I want to stop that. I don't want harm to come to them. I just want them to lose this election and to lose it decisively so that we can go back-- I kept thinking about that scene from As Good as It Gets, where Helen Hunt breaks down and says, "All I want is a nice, normal boyfriend, just a regular boyfriend who doesn't go nuts on me." I thought, I just want a nice, normal election where we argue about marginal tax rates and military spending versus social spending. I just want a nice, normal election. We have plenty of work to do and plenty to argue about in places where we really do need opposing forces in politics. But this is not it. We're not doing that in any meaningful way right now. And it is actively hurtful.  

Sarah [00:28:43] Because let's not forget either, between him being targeted by another assassination attempt and in the midst of the violent threats raining down on the people of Springfield, Ohio, he thought the most important thing he could say was I hate Taylor Swift. In all caps. Why are we still talking like this is an actual choice? I can't take it anymore. Because not for nothing, Taylor Swift can take care of herself. She has a lot of money and a lot of security. But does everybody remember a month ago when there was a massive terrorist threat at one of her concerts and they had to cancel it? And you think the best thing you can do is scream in all caps I hate Taylor Swift? Does the word presidential have no meaning anymore? I'm just wondering because this is ridiculous. This is absurd. It has reached the point of absurdity. He lost the debate. He, at turn, seemed ignorant, senile, and completely out of touch with a total inability to not take the bait. And over the days since then, all we've had is massive, nasty rumors about an extramarital affair with a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. Terrible violent threats against an innocent community because your vice president admits you have made up stories about immigrants that are here legally. And you screaming in all caps "I hate Taylor Swift," before somebody tried again for the second time in two months to try to assassinate you. That's an insane list I just made since, what, Wednesday? It's Monday.  

Beth [00:30:40] I don't even know what to say about that "I hate Taylor Swift" post because you and I talk all the time about how what we say about Donald Trump in front of our friends and family matters. For people who identify with Donald Trump, they don't hear I can't stand Donald Trump; he's a liar. They hear, I can't stand you; you're a liar. It is hard to imagine someone for whom that is more true than Taylor Swift. The number of people who see "I hate Taylor Swift" and think that is a wholesale rejection of me is huge. Now, we can all argue about whether that's healthy or not, but it is clearly the case. I guess if you want to interpret something strategic from this, it represents a continued doubling and tripling down on the campaign's decision that they will win this election with men and with men only. That they do not care about women voters save for the women who continue to stick with him, mostly because of their pro-life views, which he has trashed at every turn in this campaign because it is not politically expedient for him. But this is a tough one to find anything but personal vitriol and a spinning out of control in. And that's just the thing. I just don't want to ride the waves of Donald Trump's mood for another four years.  

Sarah [00:32:17] And I keep thinking about how this is all just affecting him psychologically, mentally. His capacity. This is another time where he got tackled in a probably pretty dramatic way by Secret Service agents after days and days of him screaming and ranting and being stressed on the Internet and whisked away with a threat to his life. Do we think this is all going to really up his mental acuity and capacity at 78 years old? Because I don't think that. I think this stress and trauma is going to continue to eat away at him in ways that are both detrimental personally and politically.  

Beth [00:33:04] I think that's right. And I don't know how to unearth us from asking then, well, how do I give an equal number of moments or words or inches in a newspaper to finding critiques of Kamala Harris or the Biden administration? Because while there is not perfection there, I am not in alignment with every one of the policy proposals that she's put forth. And I do have questions about the details of those policies. That all feels like interesting conversation to me, not the issue in this election. And I understand why you are so frustrated. And I share a lot of that frustration that we're trying again to have the coverage that we would normally expect of a generic Democrat and Republican around this.  

Sarah [00:34:07] I think people have just fully soaked up the idea that there are two ways in American politics. We need to embrace the spectrum of politics in the way that we have embraced the spectrum of sexuality in American life. Because I think people feel like if I say I can't vote for him, that means I'm in love with her and I'm a big Democrat. And I think it's less about not wanting to be a Democrat and more about not wanting to be a partisan. That has become the majority of Americans. They want to seem above it all. They want to seem smarter and more reasonable than these crazy political partisans. And I think that it feels too partisan to go, "He's banana pants. She seems fine." They just don't want that. They want to feel like they're really digging in and asking the hard questions about her policies. And I'm sorry, I just think it sounds crazy. That is not the choice before us. We are not cool headedly analyzing her policy.  

[00:35:14] Y'all, don't ever do that shit. Ever. That's never what American presidential politics is about. I'm sorry. People are too busy. It's not even a critique. It's just an observation. And so there's just continued, like, I just need to know more about her. Why? Why do you need to know more about her? Because you know truckloads of enough about him. And it is, at the end of the day, a bifurcated choice. Sorry, I know everybody is sad about that, but that is the reality. It's all about what it is always about, which is why the policy is like doubly frustrating. It's about how you see yourself and how you want people to see you. It's not really about her. It's about what you're saying about yourself. Because we've made partisan politics like everything. It's got a hold of our entire identities. And so that's why people are doing this completely ludicrous dance in my personal opinion.  

Beth [00:36:13] I think we are really married to the idea that every election is about the lesser of two evils, and I don't think that's true in this election.  

Sarah [00:36:21] Looking at you, Pope. Not helpful. Not a helpful contribution to the conversation. Thank you.  

Beth [00:36:27] Yeah, I don't know why you speak on it if you don't have something more constructive to say, but I'm not Catholic and I don't understand a lot of the dynamics surrounding the pope. I will say I do not intend by my rejection of partisanship to be above anything. It feels really easy to me to say he's bananas and so we vote for her. It has also felt really easy to me for the last four years to say she's pretty good. She's pretty smart. She's pretty competent. She's pretty focused. She's learned a ton over her time as vice president. You can say, well, she's really rehearsed. Good. She's cautious. The leader of the free world should be cautious with what they say and they should stick to exactly the message that they want to execute for a particular purpose in a particular moment. It feels pretty easy to say I am not a good representative of either party, but there is a clear choice to me in this election. And it is a choice that I am not only willing to make, but I am eager to make.  

[00:37:33] I think she will be a good president. I don't know the details of how that will roll out. I can guess at some. I don't know who she'll put in charge of the FTC. I don't know who she would nominate to the Supreme Court. So, sure, there are some unknowns out there. But I believe I understand how she would approach those decisions. And I think everything that we've seen so far is that she would do it with a lot of competence and a lot of thoughtfulness. The ability to put this campaign together in such a short amount of time, to me speaks to someone with some real chops in doing big, hard things under a lot of pressure in unusual circumstances. And that's what we need from the president.  

Sarah [00:38:13] Well, speaking of the president, Joe Biden is still the president. And I did want to know if you saw the moment with the hats.  

Beth [00:38:21] I did see the moment with the hats. I thought it was charming.  

Sarah [00:38:26] I thought I was charming, too. And I think people's reaction that, oh, that was charming is, again, a reflection of do you want to go back to the chaos agent? I know you don't like Joe Biden. I know you're so angry about the price of groceries. No judgment. Things got more expensive. But isn't it nice to see someone behave as a human being towards a fellow human being? Even though that guy was rude. There was a part of it that irked me. That's the president of the United States. That was disrespectful. They called him an old fart. But man, he rolled with it. He just rolled with it.  

Beth [00:39:06] And when he rolled with it, it was surprising. It is so diffusing to just roll with it. To be like, yeah, at the end of the day, I'm the president, but we are two people and it's fine. And we're two people who are too old for this nonsense. I thought it was really great. I thought there are a lot of really good things happening, which is a hard end to the segment that we just did. It's a hard end when you have all this stuff going on to acknowledge there are also some really good things happening. I've heard from so many people in my area who have put Harris-Walz signs in their yards and got notes from neighbors saying thank you. It made me really happy. I think you're brave to put this in your yard. I think it's bad that we have to feel brave to put up a yard sign. But I am glad that people are coming together around those things. I'm glad that people watch the debate with other people, with friends, that they got together and watched it instead of stress eating and drinking their way through it if they watched it at all. There are some good things happening. And so, yeah, I am fully in the tank for the candidate who's saying, let's not go back. Let's turn the page. Let's do this differently.  

Sarah [00:40:23] I saw my first Harris, obviously, yard sign in Paducah, Kentucky, a very red state. And I was delighted this morning when I saw it. I wish I had gotten one of those. Everybody, just put the yard’s sign. I promise you it'll be okay. Now, I don't live where you live, and I understand that you see big, obnoxious Trump signs. And if they get stolen, fine. They get stolen. Get another one. But I feel like even the villages can't find a venue big enough for their democratic meeting. There are more people, even in the reddest of places, who agree with you. I find that every time when I would wear my Biden-Harris shirt around, the people who would come up to me like little old men in the plaid snap shirts my grandpa used to wear, would come up to me in Walmart and be like, I really hope he wins. Not what I expected to hear, but it is what I heard.  

[00:41:20] We have to give people an opportunity to surprise us and we have to give people an opportunity to feel like that tide is turning and that it is safe and okay and acceptable to just vote for Kamala Harris so we don't have to do another election with Donald Trump. I guess we wouldn't be doing another election with Donald Trump either way, but I wouldn't put it past him to lose this time and fall again. I honestly wouldn't. I just need him to lose decisively. I'm ready to turn the page on this particular era of politics. I'm so ready and I think you would find more members of your community are ready than you think they are if you take out and do a little public display of your own readiness.  

Beth [00:42:09] We're going to turn the page from talking about the election now and take what one listener brilliantly referred to as the exhale of the episode and go Outside of Politics to talk about sleep.  

[00:42:17] Music Interlude.  

[00:42:26] Sarah, you and I frequently discuss our tendency in the United States to overcorrect. Kate Linday from the New York Times has written a piece asking if we have perhaps overcorrected around sleep because Americans for a long time said what Tim Walz has been saying lately We will sleep when we're dead. We don't care about sleep. And after years of worrying too little about it, she asks, "Have we started worrying too much?" Because there is a whole industry of products designed to maximize your sleep. And I was curious what you thought about this.  

Sarah [00:42:57] I wear the Oura Ring from the sponsorship many, many years ago. I love my Oura Ring. I wake up every morning and the first thing I do is check my Oura Ring so it can tell me how well I slept. Sometimes it tells me that I slept worse than I thought I did. Sometimes, though, it tells me I slept better than I thought. I feel like I toss and turn all night and it'll be like, hey, you're okay. You are going to sleep. And I'm like, okay. And it's like a little mental adjustment. Very helpful. And I've done all the things she describes in this article. I have taped my mouth shut. I wear a sleep mask. I wear earplugs. I sleep with brown noise. I have all kinds of very specific pillows. I have a bed that vibrates. I have it all because at this phase in my life, hormonally, my sleep is very sensitive. I am very, very sensitive. I sleep incredibly lightly. So this trend hit me at the right perimenopausal moment in my life. And I do think there's a connection she doesn't really explore there that we started talking about perimenopause and menopause and the importance of sleep to hormonal management and health at the same time that all these sleep trackers and sleep maxing techniques came along and there's like a crossover. At least there's crossover in my own life. I can tell you that much.  

Beth [00:44:14] I have been really dedicated to sleep since before it was trendy because many years ago, 2007, when I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, I had a conversation with a rheumatologist who said to me, "We can talk about all kinds of ways to manage this; for the rest of your life you need to treat at least eight hours of sleep like a prescription. You cannot let yourself get exhausted. That is the best piece of advice I can give you." And I have taken it to heart. Eight hours of sleep, at least, is a prescription for me. And it has made a big difference in how I feel in my life. So I take it really seriously in terms of the time I go to bed, the time I get up. I haven't tracked it. I wore an Apple Watch for a little while to see what it told me about my sleep. And I just found that it was uncomfortable and I didn't like wearing something to bed. I also didn't really love getting a grade on my sleep the next morning. I'm kind of sensitive to that. I spend a lot of time caring about my scores in life, and so I've really probably overcorrected myself and not wanting to be judged or have a whole lot of quantitative information about myself in that way.  

[00:45:25] But I don't think that it's bad to say what tools do people need to get better rest because so few people still, even with this trend out there, are getting really good rest. When you just talk with folks, very few people get a full eight hours of sleep a night consistently. And most people do seem really tired to me and feel the effects of it. And I agree with you I can tell how I am going to sleep based on where I am in my cycle now. It is very obvious the connection between my hormones and my ability to sleep well. So I am for bringing all the tools that we can bring that actually help us, even while recognizing, as I thought was put beautifully in this article from a doctor, that sleep is passive, it has to be protected, not forced or maximized. But protecting it is hard.  

Sarah [00:46:19] Well, it just reminded me of the 4000 weeks book about how much in life there's only so much we can do individually. And I think sleep seems like so much with wellness as an individual pursuit that we can maximize because so much of our life is within our control and we've really put up on a pedestal this idea of flexibility and control of our individual choices. But there is just a lot of societal stuff I think that affects our sleep. I feel pretty strongly that co-sleeping is bad for women because our sleep is so light. And there's a lot of studies that kind of prove me out on that, that we because we are lighter sleepers we suffer from the co-sleeping, especially if you sleep with someone who snores. And that sensitivity, particularly as indicated by hormones, gets really worn down by co-sleeping. I really love the new movement to talk about couples that sleep in separate bedrooms and have for decades. Because I think that is a cost that is borne by women and there's this judgment if you sleep separately. Not to mention if you have any sort of caregiving role. Obviously, my son is a type one diabetic. We get high alarms, low alarms, failed pods, failed CGM that wake us up regularly.  

[00:47:39] So there's just a lot of medical stuff that comes in if you're caregiving for another person, an infant, obviously. But I think there are a lot more ways that the bigger issue that's way outside your capacity to maximize your sleep because you're at the fate of another person and their body. And I think that work schedules-- I think we're getting a little bit away from this because the labor market is strong. But this sense of like you don't have control over your scheduling, the sort of on demand scheduling, they can just schedule you for nights or weekends or whatever, there's no regularity to it, obviously, that's going to wreak havoc over somebody’s sleep. I mean, I remember like a few years ago when they started to talk about that night shifts are carcinogens. It is categorized as a carcinogen to be required to work nights like that because it affects your body so strongly. And so I think there's a lot of give people the tools but also give people the support beyond their individual choices to make sure they sleep, to know that that's the foundation upon which everything else is built.  

Beth [00:48:45] Yeah, I think the caregiving is such an important point because those years when your kids are little and they're waking up in the night because they’re little pass. It's hard and it's intense and it is exhausting. But you have a sense that it's temporary, even if you forget that sense in the middle of the night, as I did many times. But when you have a situation that is not temporary, any way that you are able to cope with that I think is a good way. Any way that you're able to cope with that is a good way because rest is foundational and it is so difficult when there isn't the opportunity to rest in the way that you know that you need. Well, I'm tempted, Sarah, at some point to bring back the bruxism beat, because the newest addition to my sleep is a mouth guard. I have learned that I am grinding my teeth terribly in my sleep. And so I started wearing one. And I cannot report any change in my sleep except that now I dream about things in my teeth all night. I'm hoping that it'll stop soon because, like, I've had dreams about gum and caramel, but it's every night I'm dreaming about just stickiness in my mouth.  

[00:49:56] I'm hoping that that's temporary and just an adjustment, but it's so weird. It's kind of made me think about how wacky and wonderful our brains are, that that's the way that my body is reacting to this big change. I have a feeling that we'll continue to talk about this. We've talked about sleep a lot before and we will again because it is just the fuel of being human. We'd love to hear any tips that you all have on sleeping better or questions that you have about sleep. We're so glad that you joined us today. If you enjoyed this episode or found any part of it helpful, we would love for you to share it with your friends and your family members. And if you are a premium member, thank you. We look forward to seeing you on Thursday night for Spicy Live. We will be back with you on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.  

[00:50:42] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family. Ashley Rene. Michelle Palacios. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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