Reflecting on the DNC, RFK Jr, and Cussing

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Sarah and Beth’s Reflections on the DNC

  • RFK Jr. Drops Out of the Race

  • Family and Personal Lives of Politicians 

  • Outside of Politics: Swearing and Cussing

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THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION

2024 PRESIDENTIAL RACE

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] Thank you for joining us. We are fresh off attending the Democratic National Convention last week. Many of you joined us on our premium channels for our in the moment reactions. Now we have slept.  

Sarah [00:00:40] So much. I slept so much.  

Beth [00:00:41] We have unpacked, we've taken some walks and we're ready to sort out where the parties are right now, what feels new and different and what we're really looking for from our presidential candidates. We're also going to talk today about the news that Robert F Kennedy Jr has suspended his presidential campaign and endorsed Donald Trump. And then Outside of Politics, we're going to talk about swearing. There was a lot of it at the DNC, and we just are kind of checking in on our personal relationship with swearing. Are any words still off limits? If so, in what context and how are we thinking about this?  

Sarah [00:01:13] But first we have a few announcements to share. We'll be at Edgehill United Methodist Church in Nashville, Tennessee on Sunday, September 8th, talking about graceful political conversations. Edgehill is using our book. I Think You're Wrong, (But I'm Listening) to prepare for the election, which we love and so appreciate. And this event is open to the public. So you can find more information in the show notes. And if you want to lead a similar book club in your organization or church, please reach out to Alise at Hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. And finally, we have the penultimate episode of our Democracy in America series coming up this Friday. We've been working our way through Alexis de Tocqueville's classic all year long, and have found it to be so thought provoking and relevant. We'd love for you to join us by becoming a premium member at the $15 level or higher on Patreon or Apple Podcast subscriptions, and join the conversation.  

Beth [00:01:57] The Democratic Party gathered in Chicago last week to celebrate the nomination of Vice President Kamala Harris, and we were in the room. So we'll tell you all about it right after a quick break.  

[00:02:05] Music Interlude.  

[00:02:15] Sarah, we join thousands of Democratic delegates, thousands of press, thousands of security people--  

Sarah [00:02:25] Donors.  

Beth [00:02:26] Lots of donors. Many people in Chicago converged for the Democratic National Convention, and we survived it. I have described it as a lot of work, and you have described it as really fun to your friends and family. And so that's where we are.  

Sarah [00:02:41] I didn't survive, I thrived.  

Beth [00:02:42] We made it. You thrived. I survived. 

Sarah [00:02:45] I thrived. I love a party. I love people. Crowds don't bother me. I'm a celebrity slut. Listen, this is. This has hit all the high points for me. I love being a Democrat. I love being an American. And there was so much patriotism in this convention that I was really feeling. And also, I think there's this sense of like participating in the future, this historic candidacy, participating in this long line of history, conventions that have been going on in our country for hundreds of years, including in Chicago, some pretty historic ones. I also love Chicago. Could not get enough of the weather up there. It was a great time. I had a freaking great time.  

Beth [00:03:29] I am so glad that you did. I also love being an American and participating in things that are part of a long line of history. Everything else? Not so much. Roll my eyes about celebrities. Do not like crowds. Not really a Democrat. I was thinking about how this felt to me versus the last convention that we went to, because we went to both the DNC and RNC in 2016. And I remember going to the DNC in 2016, and almost the entire time we were there, everyone we met, it would be like, "Well, Beth is a Republican, but not that kind." And we didn't really have to do that as much this time. But I am still not a Democrat, and I still do feel like a fly on the wall in the room in this setting. It was so interesting to me to be there in a year when the outreach to people like me was so explicit.  

Sarah [00:04:17] Okay, I've thought a lot about this. I'm going to use a story that you've heard, but a lot of people in our audience haven't. So in the '80s, my hometown of Paducah had a rundown area called Lower Town. These big Victorian mansions built by some of the river industry barons were falling apart. And we did this thing called the Artist Relocation Program. And we put this big call out nationwide and we said, you can come by these mansions for $1 if you're an artist and open a gallery. It saved this area of town. Now we have this incredible arts community. But what happened is the artist changed Paducah. I think the founding Paducans who thought up this idea kind of saw art as a commodity, as something to consume. They wanted cool art and things in their town. And I don't think they quite anticipated that the artists would change things. They have a perspective, they have a certain politics, and they influenced the town in real and unexpected ways. And I kept thinking about that with all the Republicans that have found a home inside this coalition over the last almost 10 years. And I kept thinking, like, this isn't just outreach.  

[00:05:31] I listened to her speech and I thought, this is a very conservative speech. And the analysis I heard was, oh, well, that's her outreach, too moderate. She's really moderating herself, but I think it's more than that. And I wanted to ask you about this because I think it's more than that. I think it's these people who we used to always see as opposition. And so there's just a certain amount of a wall that goes up. When they came in: the Sarah Longwells, the Tim Millers, the Bill crystals, the Adam Kinzingers, the Liz Cheneys, we had to think about them differently, that we had a shared goal. I think it's crazy to think they wouldn't work on things like policy, that they wouldn't make some space for us to articulate goals around safety and national security. And I felt that. And I don't think it was just a political, strategic move on her part. I think that they have had influence because this coalition has contained really conservative people since 2015, and that's a long time. And of course, their influence is going to show up.  

Beth [00:06:35] I think there is some truth in that. It's hard for me to distinguish what is the natural influence of people like me, who have been part of-- coalition, I think is a really good word. Because it's not the party. Still, there's a totally different level of enthusiasm in the crowd for the former Republicans versus the natural Democratic speakers. But coalition is a good word, and I think there is some influence. It's hard for me to distinguish that from what is truly Kamala Harris, because she is a prosecutor and she was an attorney general. And I think that's why she rolled out her presidential campaign so awkwardly in 2020, when there was a completely different vibe among Democrats about police. None of it feels artificial to her, to me. So what this would have looked like without those coalition partners, I don't know. I don't think it would have been that different, though, because I think she is more conservative among Democrats than people have made her out to be.  

Sarah [00:07:37] Well, the other component, though, I think is the other difference between 2016 is the protesters were Bernie Bros. This year. The protesters were pro-Palestinian groups. Now, objectively, to me, there is more at stake with regards to the Palestinian protest than there is with a failed Bernie Sanders candidacy. I think that's something we can all agree on, right? The stakes are a little bit higher when you're talking about many, many lives at stake, okay? But let me tell you, the protests from the Bernie Bros were louder, more frequent and more disruptive by a mile in 2016. By a mile, y'all. They were all the time mouthing off, and I didn't have anything really to compare it to. And so now this year, I saw there were some Palestinian protests within the hall, but they were very few and they were shut down very quickly. Because I really think that this new coalition that has to contain all these people, I think it works on everyone. I really think it works on everyone. And I think the history of the last 10 years-- not just Donald Trump, not just this new coalition, but 2020 and the pandemic and the murder of George Floyd, all of that worked on us in a lot of ways. And I just saw so much of it come together this week at the DNC.  

Beth [00:09:04] They're so different to the pro-Bernie versus the pro-Palestinian, because the Bernie people were about one guy. The pro-Palestinian group was made up of like 200 different organizations trying to work together, and a spectrum from people who just desperately want a cease fire all the way to truly like pro-Hamas groups. That's a major diversity of opinion. It is a more complex statement to make, and it is being made by people who experience it from a whole lot of different perspectives. And so I think it was easier for the Bernie people to show out in the convention format than for these groups to show in that format. I want to go back to your point about Vice President Harris's speech feeling pretty conservative. I did listen to that speech and think, I don't have any notes. For someone like me, what we heard was a strong national security message, a strong focus on the middle class, including small businesses and entrepreneurship.  

[00:10:15] A focus on housing that includes not being so fussy about zoning regulations. Things that Republicans have talked about for a long time, she has taken up and run with, and I was really interested in how seriously she approached that speech. Sarah, I wanted to ask you about this. She did not do a coconut reference. She did not use the word unburdened. All of the things that the internet has gone crazy for her in a positive way about, she left behind. It felt to me like she understood this election is extremely close. I have one opportunity to say hello to people who have not checked into this race yet, and who don't know anything about me from my vice presidency, and I am going to speak directly to them, assuring them that they can trust me. And I felt like she nailed it in that respect.  

Sarah [00:11:15] Yeah, it was really interesting to me over the weekend when everybody was asking me about the DNC and I was talking about Doug and nobody who knew who Doug was. I was like in a conversation with two people who were like, who's Doug? They thought he was Walz. And I was like, whoa, you don't know who Doug Emhoff is? It's always just a reminder of the difference between people who are very online or very democratic and those who are not. People had not seen the roll call. People didn't even know about Little John. There was just a long list of things that felt consuming to me. And that's why it's a difficult position to talk about the speech, because the speech for me is in a context. It's a context of everything that came before, which is a lot of Democratic speakers representing that pretty broad coalition. You had Bernie Sanders, and then you had Governor Pritzker right after him bragging about being a billionaire. It was like a wild context. There was a lot of articulation of a pro-Palestinian position. There was a lot of articulation of the cause of Israel. It was just such a diverse (on lots of levels) articulation of who the party is and what the party stands for.  

[00:12:16] And so, her coming at the end, it's resting on this foundation for me. I don't know how I would feel if I just tuned in for that speech as a lifelong Democrat, but a lifelong Democrat wouldn't turn it into just that speech. So that's probably part of it anyway. But I have no notes as far as politically. I want her to do whatever she thinks is important to reach out to moderate voters who might be more conservative than me. That is 100% fine with me. The Democratic National Convention is a commercial. That's what it is. That's why the protest that they-- one of the New York Times editorials were like it was wrong not to give them a platform. I'm like, what are you talking about? This is a commercial for us. That's what this is. This is a prime time commercial for the Democratic Party in our nominee. Anything that does not meet that goal does not belong. Period. And so that didn't really bother me. And I thought all the choices she made were so smart and were such a good introduction.  

[00:13:12] I'm really glad that the media has adopted this idea of she needs to introduce herself to the American people, because I really can imagine a scenario in which they had taken a framework that she was a very liberal vice president. She's a liberal from California, has been vice president for four years. So she has to convince America that that's not what she stands for. I think they could have taken that posture very easily and it would have been a very different situation. So I'm delighted that they took the posture that she needs to reintroduce herself to people, which seems to be true based on the conversations I've been having. And I thought that was a great introduction. It was a very presidential speech. It was a very, very presidential speech. It was not a stump speech in any way, shape or form.  

Beth [00:14:00] I don't think her record supports that she's a very, very liberal vice president, though.  

Sarah [00:14:05] That's never stopped them before.  

Beth [00:14:07] Going back to the early days of the administration, you can pull her saying:  

Audio Clip: Kamala Harris [00:14:13] Do not come. Do not come.  

Beth [00:14:17] About immigration, and building her portfolio around keeping people in their home countries. What can America do to stop the flow of immigration to the southern border? She's been real consistent on that. She has built her national security chops in pretty conservative directions. Countering China in the Indo-Pacific. Building partnerships to support Ukraine against Russian aggression. She has been an advocate against gun violence her entire career. I guess you could put that under the liberal umbrella. And she has been an advocate for reproductive rights her entire career. But it is a pretty centrist portfolio. It is a portfolio that really, I think, reflects where a lot of Americans land on the issues. And to see her elevate housing in the way that she's doing it, even though that is not something that the president historically has a whole lot of power over, I think also says she's listening to people. She hears what is salient for people right now. And the conversations that I have about politics locally are always about housing right now.  

Sarah [00:15:27] Yeah, I heard Jon Favreau saying every single one of their focus groups for his other podcast, the first thing people say is housing. Every single time. So I think people who have been ringing that bell are delighted that it has risen to the top of the Democratic policy platform in a way that hopefully will get through to people. And I think, overall, I was just proud to be there. It was well run. There's been a lot of conversation this week about advance work based on JD Vance's truly horrific visit to a donut shop. If you're not an extremely online person, you might not have seen this video, but I recommend you go find it. Where he visits a donut shop and tells them he'll take whatever makes sense, which is not how you order food in a place where you have to order food.  

Audio Clip: J.D. Vance [00:16:12] Just everything, yeah. I mean a lot of glazed, cinnamon rolls. Just whatever makes sense. 

Sarah [00:16:17] And there's people who don't want to be filmed. I did a handful of advanced trips way back in 2007, so I wouldn't call myself an expert. But there are what you call advanced teams who go and say what's the media going to see, who's there, are they ready to talk, are they ready to be filmed, what's the setup going to look like? Not just in these stops, but in something big. A big speech like the Democratic convention. Now this is more production than advanced, but I was so proud to see how well it was orchestrated. The roll call of the States was a delightful party and went off without a hitch on TV, which is impressive considering she was in another arena going live. I think it was to see the upcoming political talent. I liked Ezra Klein's metaphor that it felt like the Avengers bringing back Biden, Clinton, both Clintons, both Obamas. We just have a lot. Like the Republican Party has one living president that they don't invite to anything anymore. And so to see us say, we love everybody we've ever run, bring them out here. Let's pull everybody coming up on the bench. Even Bernie got a good spot. Everybody. Let's just do this. The beautiful moment with Elizabeth Warren where people clapped so much, it brought her to tears. It was kind of heartwarming to be a Democrat and to see this beautiful production, all this talent, all this gratitude for people who have committed their lives to public service. And then it really felt-- and I don't know if it felt like this to you-- as like a turning of the page.  

Beth [00:17:56] I've been thinking about that turning of the page metaphor. I saw clips of Jake Tapper talking to Senator Booker about this, and Jake Tapper was saying, like, seriously turning the page? You guys are writing the book. She's the vice president. Joe Biden's the president. You've had the Senate. You guys are in charge. So why are we turning the page? I think the result of all of that work that you were just describing, advanced work, production work, it is a hard event to orchestrate because it is both an event for the people in the building, and it is an event for TV, and it is a clippable event that people are going to make memes about and content creators are there to cover.  

Sarah [00:18:37] That was a big deal- the creators for Kamala. That was a big deal.  

Beth [00:18:41] Yes, and we were walking out on the very last night. They had given everyone in the arena American flags to wave. And I heard a guy saying, "Pick those up. We don't want any pictures of American flags on the floor here. Republicans will have a field day if there are pictures of American flags on the floor." So you've got to be aware of what's happening on so many levels at one time if you're in charge of this event, because it has to be so many things at once. That's really difficult. I think the fact that you walked away thinking this is a turning of the page is a tribute to the people doing all of that work. The generational change component is huge. The positioning of the party as being such an open invitation to all Americans who don't want Donald Trump to serve a second time is huge. That felt distinctively different to me than in 2016. I read this as a Democratic party that understands that for many parts of the country, it has a brand image problem. And the stakes are too high to allow clinging to a stubborn version of the brand to get in the way of persuading people. What feels really different to me is I hear Democrats saying, "We know we have to persuade people who do not love us, and we are willing to use every tool in our toolbox to do that."  

Sarah [00:20:01] The reason I keep kind of going back to the artists relocation program and the turning of the page, is because it feels a little bit different to me. It doesn't feel like branding. It feels like the coalition has shifted. This is a Democratic party composed differently than it was in 2016, much less in 2000. And it's a Democratic party that's learned a lot of lessons. And so, branding to me always has sort of a negative connotation. And I just think we're different, and I felt that profoundly. Look, I am 43 years old. And I really haven't known a space inside the Democratic Party that is not composed of Clinton, Obama or Bidens. In my whole adult life, I really haven't-- well, I guess maybe Kerry and Bush. Even when Obama burst on the scene and it felt like he was this new face of the Democratic Party, it was Biden as his running mate, and it was Hillary as his opponent, and then a secretary of state. So it just felt all these faces and these approaches to identity and policy have been such a part of the party. And I think it felt so beautiful to me because it didn't feel like a rejection, like we're going in a new direction. You guys lost everything, so we're moving on. It didn't feel like that. It felt like, hey, we've learned from you and we're going in a new place. I watched Shut Up and Sing The Chicks documentary from 2006 that I love for the first time in 20 years. And man, it's just like them being there, I got so emotional.  

[00:21:49] I was watching Natalie Maines take heat for saying she was embarrassed that the president was from Texas-- not even take heat, destroy their career on a lot of levels. And I thought, what if a time traveler could have come to her and said, "Hey, guess what? In 20 years, you're going to be singing the national anthem at the Democratic National Convention when they nominate a black woman president, and the first black president is going to be making dick jokes about Donald Trump, who's running for the third time in a row." Your head would have exploded. and I'm reading the 4000 weeks book, the Time management for Mortal book everybody's talking about. And he talks about we want to control the future when what we have to accept is that the things we can't control make us who we are, the things that happen that we can never control. And I thought, man, and then the Democratic Party, all party strategy is like trying to control. Trying to control the narrative, trying to control the policy, trying to call the governing strategy.  

[00:22:48] And I just look at us at this convention and I think, the thing we couldn't control, the thing that felt like death has put us in a really strong and beautiful place. Again, I'm just so proud of the way we have been shaped by the Never Trumpers and the way we have sort of been kind of scared of, and now we're just facing the way Donald Trump behaves and manipulates the media and occupies the field, and the way we have gone on this journey with sort of diversity and identity. And I looked around and I thought, this is great. I feel like we've been influenced, we've learned, we've grown, and we're in a really, really good spot where we can be patriotic and we can name things and we can hold it all. We can just hold it all at once. I thought maybe at a certain point in Democratic politics that this wide open coalition would break us. I was afraid it would be too hard. And I just think, well, why? That's our story. Our story is what is so big and wide about us is it always makes us stronger as Americans. And I left that convention thinking that is true for us. This wide open coalition from Bernie to Never Trumpers has made us really strong. And I'm just so incredibly proud.  

Beth [00:24:13] I hope that that is what translates to people from the convention. It is a strange thing. I think conventions are strange, all of them. It's hours and hours and hours, so you can find plenty to nitpick if that's what you're trying to do. You can ask the question, what are we doing? Like, this is an enormously expensive proposition. It takes millions of federal dollars for all conventions just to keep them safe. We walked through heavily armed security. The city of Chicago added a lot. The Secret Service did a lot. You look at the balloons and the signs and the confetti, like, you can think about the waste of the whole thing, the arena. There's a lot to criticize. If it is really ultimately a commercial for the Democratic Party and the candidates that it's putting forth in November, I hope that what translates to the American people is what you said. That this is a party that, at least for now, is trying to integrate all of the lessons of the last 10 years.  

[00:25:19] And is trying to stay with its most progressive folks while making a lot of space for the Never Trumpers-- and not even Never Trumpers. People who have voted for Trump once or twice before, people who have donated to Trump. There was a speaker on stage who said, "I have given Trump money, but I am here now." And I hope that that welcoming is what comes through, because I do think that that is what Kamala Harris wants to come through for this election. How long that can last, I don't know. I can imagine that that convention was enormously frustrating for people who are much, much farther to the left than I am. I can imagine that there were many moments they're like, you've got to be kidding me. I can't believe this is where we are. Even so, each election has to be taken on its own terms. What is needed right now? And I think she is very clear on what is needed right now. We'll take a quick break and discuss what's happening on the other side of the aisle in presidential politics.  

[00:26:21] Music Interlude. 

[00:26:31] We were talking about the Democratic Party finding the center as it's positioning itself to go into November. Former President Trump seems to believe that he needs to pivot a little bit to the center as well, because we are now getting a message from his campaign that they are going to be amazing for reproductive rights.  

Sarah [00:26:50] Reproductive rights. Can you imagine? Can you imagine the pro-life people and what they felt when those words came across their screen? It's something else. Some people are pivoting. Some people are still being nasty about Gus Walz, which I don't understand-- I mean, I do. I told Griffin when they were, like, Ann Colter was being such a terrible human about that moment with Gus Walz and his dad that, like, just remember there are content creators on that side that want to say incendiary things, and there are content creators on our side that want to say incendiary things in those moments. But yeah, everywhere I look on the right, the Trump campaign, the content creators, Fox News, the only word I can think of is floundering. There's just seems to be a lot of floundering. They're trying to find a hook. They're trying to land a punch. And I feel like it's working. Even the RFK thing kind of went over like a lead balloon, in my opinion.  

Beth [00:27:49] That's the other big news from the weekend. Robert F Kennedy Jr has suspended his campaign.  

Sarah [00:27:53] Only in swing states, right?  

Beth [00:27:56] Only in swing states except Michigan, where he can't come off the ballot because he's a minor party's nominee there. He's encouraging people to vote for Donald Trump. He has endorsed Donald Trump. He's encouraged people to vote for him. He says it's just been agonizing to come to this conclusion. I imagine, since he has spent his career advocating for the environment and Donald Trump thinks climate change is a hoax, but that's where he's landed.  

Sarah [00:28:18] Did you see the take where somebody was like, I don't care what his family thinks about this. I'm like, what? I do. If someone's family, like, their siblings are like, don't listen to them, I always listen. Personally, I thought that was a weird take.  

Beth [00:28:33] I struggle to see anything about Robert F Kennedy Jr. that doesn't just make me feel sad. I just think his life has been difficult. I think his family relationships are difficult. I think the way he is trying to make sense of life is difficult. And I just feel kind of sad about all of it.  

Sarah [00:28:54] I totally agree. I thought the most empathetic and compassionate take came from Jason Kander, where he said, "I see someone who's interested in conspiracy theories because they can't figure out another way to understand why their father and uncle were taken from them before they ever got a chance to know them." And I thought, that is the right type. Jason Kander also had the best take on Britney Mahomes in case anybody cares. We'll put the link to the Twitter thread in our show notes. I just thought that-- I was like, that's it. I mean, electorally, I think it will have minimal impact, if any at all.  

Beth [00:29:26] To me, his candidacy was a vessel for people who are unhappy with the two major parties. And we need and we'll always have people who are unhappy with the two major parties. It is important to hear that all of us in America cannot adequately be represented by two parties. That is true. And it is also true that our system is not designed to help us get a third party across the finish line right now. And so, I think there's always something important about the folks who come out and run and have their constituencies. I don't want to ignore them or be dismissive. To me, if the first real breakthrough since Perot by a non-major party candidate was going to come on the back of an anti-vaccine movement, that felt concerning to me.  

Sarah [00:30:19] I don't know if you got the same ad in our Twitter thread that I did over and over again. I always had these ads that were like, why aren't we talking about the breakout in chronic illness in Americans? It seemed like when I heard him sort of bubble up, even in my everyday exchanges, it was always through that lens of like, we're being poisoned. And it really always wasn't anti-vaxx, it was more like our pharmaceuticals are poisoning us. Our environment is poison. I mean, that's his background, right? Even more than the anti-vax stuff. It's like the poisoning of our environment and therefore the poisoning of our own bodies. And I just thought, man, there's something there. Along with the distrust of the medical institution that I don't think we should blow off. I don't think we should vote for Robert Kennedy as a solution. But I think we should listen closely to because I think he tapped something.  

Beth [00:31:12] Yeah. Agreed. When I said concerning about it being about anti-vax stuff, it is concerning to me because that is just so reactionary to Covid. The bigger picture of what I think maybe began in his environmentalism, and that does include the wellness movement and the distrust of medicine.  

Sarah [00:31:36] He was an autism vax person too, wasn't he?  

Beth [00:31:38] Yeah. I think all of that, you're right, is a thread in American politics that we cannot ignore. I don't know exactly what the right response is to it, but I think it should not be ignored. I just think he was not a good messenger for it. He especially was not a good messenger when he is of the same generation as the other candidates. And a lot of the centrist American frustration about this election has been about the generations. So it feels right to me that he is suspended. I'm not at all surprised that he endorsed Trump. That felt like the play to me all the way along, that he was going to try to push Trump over the finish line. So I'm sort of glad that it's all out. That's how I feel about the comments about Gus Walz, too. I hate this for this family. I hate for this family what they're being subjected to. But I hate that for all families in politics. I worry that no one's ever going to want to do these jobs because the way we treat people. On the other hand, I don't think it hurts when people transparently show who they are. And to me, the ugliness about Gus Walz and the ugliness about any man who comes across as something other than an aggressive, intimidating, alpha male as a problem, I just think that there's an honesty in that from the right wing that America needs to stare at in the face, because then you can really understand what the choices are here.  

Sarah [00:33:07] Well, and I was thinking about this because I saw Bradley Whitford tweeted something really nasty at Cheryl Hines. Bradley Whitford from The West Wing Cheryl Hines is Robert F Kennedy Jr's wife. She used to be on Curb Your Enthusiasm. And I thought, it feels like we've made some progress. I thought there were some really good editorials during the pressure campaign on Joe Biden to say, this is not Joe Biden's problem. We can't put all this pressure on the spouses. I don't think we've quite turn the page. I don't feel like we're in a new spot, but I do feel like we've made some progress around how do we talk about families? How do we specifically talk about people's spouses? And maybe it's because we're being forced to because of Doug Emhoff, and thinking about, well, what does it mean when this is a man? Because it is interesting. You don't get any vibe mention of like Doug is the real decision maker. There's no undercurrent of that with her, which you've heard in the past for sure.  

[00:34:14] You also have this interesting moment where Michelle outshone Obama under any metric. And so it's so fascinating to me thinking about how different politics was when I started out of college and the way we talked about political spouses and political families. I mean, there's always been a consistent, like, leave their kids alone. Just leave their kids alone. And I think that's what was so ugly about the Gus Walz moment. But the spousal conversation, to me, it doesn't feel like we've settled, but it feels like we're unsteady in a way. We're trying to decide. Because as much as I don't like Robert F Kennedy and I am sad for his family, and I think it's terrible that he endorsed Trump, to go after her in such a nasty way, I read it and I was like, no, this isn't it anymore.  

Beth [00:35:02] Well, you said a minute ago that you really listen to Kennedy's siblings, that when the family has something to say, it matters to you. And I think that gets to how I have always looked at families. That it is an indicator of a person's overall character and stability. Not that I want to go deep on anybody. I don't care what someone has tweeted or posted or said in the past or who they work for. But overall, do I feel like this is a person of character and integrity and stability, that they have a support network that will help them as they embark on an incredibly hard job? I hope that's how I take it in. I love all of the stories about the blended family created by the marriage of Kamala Harris and Doug Emhoff. I think it is especially salient that his ex-wife is such a big supporter, that his kids seem to love her. Because then you say, okay, you have to work really hard to have a blended family with this level of health and camaraderie. That tells me something. Not everything. Would it be disqualifying if there were animosity with the ex-wife? No, that's pretty normal too. But it does seem indicative of something good, something that we like.  

[00:36:21] Just as with the Trumps, there is something that feels off about the family dynamic, and that's not disqualifying on its own, but it tells you something about the character of this person. I think it's so tricky, certainly for candidates and campaigns, but for all of us to decide what is inbounds and out of bounds as we look at the personal lives of the people who seek these jobs and how do we weigh those personal anecdotes, moments, structures against what they tell us they're going to do? And I don't have good answers, but I think those questions are worthy of pursuit, especially as we had members of the Trump family actually on the payroll in the white House, especially as we were talking about whether President Biden could continue to run this campaign. A lot of things about families are converging, no surprise, as we're discussing birth rates and abortion. I mean, this is a family election, so they're going to be more hard questions.  

Sarah [00:37:25] Well, and I feel that shifting to around wealth and the candidate's wealth. I thought it was so fascinating to me. I came back and I'm talking to my dad about the convention, he really wanted me to listen about what they were going to do to the country. Because Trump is pushing so much that they're socialist, they're communist. But then his thing was with the Obamas. Well, doesn't it make you mad that they talk about sticking it for Americans if they have all these mansions? And I'm like, wait, what is it? Is it that we're communists or that we're too rich? I can't keep up with the critique. Which one is it? Because you know what? It didn't bother me to have Bernie and Pritzker back to back. I think it's freaking great. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that we have both sides in our party. Let's talk about the fact that the Walz's have nothing but a pension.  

[00:38:12] And then you also have the Obamas, who I don't begrudge for one freaking second making money post-presidency. And also, I have a great deal of admiration for the way Jimmy Carter has said, I'm not going to get paid anyway with writing books and still lives in the same house. None of it bothers me because you can do all of it with integrity, and you can assert all kinds of values with that. And so I think it's interesting that we're always sort of shifting and playing and trying to decide how we feel about that inside the Democratic Party as well, especially as you're going up against somebody who uses wealth as an indication of capability, sometimes character-- but not character in a good way, but then he's a shark, which is weird. So I think that that whole component is really interesting as well.  

Beth [00:39:04] And personally, overall, I keep thinking about JD Vance and the whatever make sense donut order, and the question about what makes you happy and he slams the media for asking dumb questions like that. I understand to some extent feeling constantly defensive when the lights are this bright, but I can't fully get myself to a place of empathy for that and trust. When I see someone who's constantly on the defensive like that, I think you are untrustworthy. Some signal is coming through that you are untrustworthy. If you can't order a donut and have a reasonably pleasant, normal interaction that puts other people at ease, how do I trust you in the position that you're asking for? And man, I just watch him and think, is he ever going to be able to get better at this? Or is this a thing that you can't get better at? If you just live in the defensive, maybe you just cannot get out of that posture to be a person who can be a leader.  

Sarah [00:40:09] Well, especially in contrast to Walz going to the runs a place. If you haven't seen the video of vice presidential candidate Governor Walz going to Runza in Nebraska and he's like obsessed with it-- now I'm like, okay, well he's an Enneagram one because he's like, if you want to have a good sandwich, if you want to have a good time...  

Audio Clip: Tim Walz [00:40:31] If you're going to go to Nebraska, if you're going to go to a Nebraska football game, if you're just going to be a good person, you stop at Runza.  

Sarah [00:40:38] And I was like, no wonder this man appeals to me. And it's just the comfort level. I think always with JD Vance, it's because he has something to prove. He wants to prove it to his hometown people he hasn't risen too high. He wants to prove it to the people at the top that he belongs. And that is quite the mental and personality gymnastics he's going through all the time. He's not comfortable in either place, and it is abundantly clear that he's not comfortable in either place.  

Beth [00:41:05] And I think Trump is better at this than he is, but also has that problem. That's why he's saying he's going to be great for women. The suburban women should love him. He's going to keep them safe and also be great for reproductive rights now. There isn't any kind of firm footing I know who I am and what I'm about. I thought the vice president Harris in her speech when she said about the question of democracy in the world, "I know where I stand and I know where America should stand," that moment to me was so important for people to hear and think about. Because when could you hear Donald Trump say, I know where I stand and I know where America should stand and believe him? I think about this with RFK's endorsement. I believe he has been promised maybe something in the cabinet. Would you cash any check that Donald Trump wrote to you in that regard?  

Sarah [00:41:59] Well, it doesn't even matter. Even if you get on the cabinet it's not like you can breathe easy. It's not like you're safe once you make it into the inner circle with Donald Trump. I really was, though, pushing myself and I was thinking, okay, wait though, why is it always laughable to me when he'll switch positions? But when she does that, I think it's savvy. When she says, stop talking about Medicare for all. When she says, yeah, sure, let's remove taxes on tips. When she does stuff like that, I think it's so smart. She's following the voters where they're at. And when he does it, it feels inauthentic. I really am trying to push myself on that because I want to see it as best I can as other people would see it, and not just as I want to see it because I like her and I don't like him. Because the flip flopping back in the Kerry days worked. It worked and I never understood it, but it did. It hit people. And so I'm trying to think about where's the line where you seem like, no, I'm listening and I'm shifting my position based on what people tell me they want, and where it just starts to seem like you're following the winds just because all you want to do. All you want to do is win, win, win, no matter what.  

Beth [00:43:13] I think it's a really good question. And I think it gets back to the thing we keep circling around. It's more than vibes. When people talk about it as a vibes election, I think there's something to that. But she's not going to win the Electoral College because the internet loves her and she knows that and that's why her speech was so serious, I think. I think we are really getting to who are these people and what degree of confidence can we have in them to meet whatever comes their way. Maybe we're also cynical now that we just expect that politicians will change their minds. Maybe Covid has taught us that you just don't get to pick what comes your way. And what you think is the right thing in one situation may actually not be the right thing in another situation.  

[00:44:03] Maybe because we had President Biden struggle through that debate, and because of the ages of President Biden and former President Trump, we are just thinking a lot about what this job requires and what we need someone who sits in the seat to have. And I think all of that's good. We just don't have good language to pull some of those things apart. And some of it does feel so intrusive. And because everything has an equal and opposite reaction, you get like, okay, let me showcase the focus on our family here, but then half the internet is going to make fun of the way our son cried out of pride for his dad. I think we are in the messy middle of what we want from our presidential candidates right now.  

Sarah [00:44:49] Well, and I thought him having this nice big crowd in Arizona would calm him down a little bit, but he's already sending out some warning flares that he fired back out of the debate on September 10th. Because, again, the stories that came out of that huge arena full of people was bad advance work. Like letting the press take pictures of getting Kari Lake off the stage, or the fact that he just stood behind that poor man and was like, "You got to go. You got to go." And then that guy was all awkward. People were yawning behind him. It's like one missed opportunity after another missed opportunity. So I don't know if that's made him nervous again, because I really thought the crowd would sooth this ego a little bit at least for a couple days, a week or two. I think either way, if he backs out, he's going to look scared, which he is. And then if he goes forward, I don't have one millisecond of anxiety about her ability to handle him on a debate stage.  

Beth [00:45:43] Well, so that gets to one of the big questions that seems to be floating out there among people who are not addicted to politics in my life. Is there something fundamentally unfair or conspiratorial about switching candidates this late in the cycle?  

Sarah [00:46:04] No. That's ridiculous. I think what to me is so silly about that is the complete absence of any understanding of American history and the idea that we've been running year and a half presidential primary since 1776, which spoiler, we have not. That's not how it worked. Robert F Kennedy Jr just suspended his campaign. May I remind you that Robert F Kennedy senior was assassinated during a presidential primary that he was winning and then everything shifted dramatically, much less just LBJ dropping out. I don't know where people get this from. It's new in this century, I guess, but it's not new in American history.  

Beth [00:46:57] I think that's a good point. What keeps occurring to me, as I consider this, is just that if you cannot handle that kind of change in your opponent for the job, how are you going to handle the job? There is talk for like a week about Trump changing out J.D. Vance because he blew the rollout so badly. And everyone I talk to you about that, I said, "Good, do it. If it's not working, he should change it." There is no sense of fairness to me well the Democrats specifically thought about the contrast with J.D. Vance. Because if they can't handle that change, they can't handle the job. The job is going to be someone constantly with massive amounts of resources and planning and strategy, changing the landscape for the president of the US. That's just what the job is. And so you got to be able to roll with whatever happens. And if he cannot regroup around this, then he can't handle the job.  

Sarah [00:47:54] Yeah. Well, I'm not worried about Tim Walz regrouping if they pick somebody different either, let me tell you that much.  

Beth [00:47:59] So we're going to continue to follow the presidential campaign, of course. But up next we're going to take our exhale of the episode to talk a little bit Outside of Politics about swearing. Speaking of Tim Walz, he loves the word damn. We're going to explore that a little bit.  

[00:48:12] Music Interlude.  

[00:48:21] Sarah, I just did a little googling and I found that in an average speech on the trail, Tim Walz was using damn between six and eight times. I leaned over to you during the convention and said I would read 10,000 words on Democrats embrace of damn. So I would love to know how that sits with you.  

Sarah [00:48:41] It just felt like we've crossed the threshold and now cursing is allowed. They did bleep the F-word in her famous moment where she told someone to kick the door down. But there was a lot of damn. She said half assed. I think some people said shit. And listen, the old lady has entered the chat. I'm going to lump in Obama's dick joke to what I see as a shift. Which while I think it was expertly delivered-- I saw somebody say it was Richard Pryor level delivery. And I thought, that's exactly right. And that's a very high bar. Didn't love it. Because when Donald Trump made the dick reference in the debate, I remember going, oh no, no, no, I don't want this. I don't want to go here. And I thought we had just decided that was just him and we weren't going to do it. And then Obama did it and I was like, see now. Because here's the thing, he did it and it wasn't offensive. But now he's opened the door for other people to do it, and they're not going to do it as delicately as he did it. That's my worry with the cussing.  

[00:49:47] Even the couch jokes, it's like some people can do it and deliver it well and couch it (no pun intended) in a way that doesn't make it feel crass. But once those people start doing it, then the other people do it and they are crass. And I'm not looking for crassness. That is a page I'd like to turn on the Trump era. I don't want crassness because it's misinformation. I know we've taken it as a joke now, but it's not based in any truth. And as we keep battling about the fact checkers, I would like to add this to the list as well. Now, you know I've struggled with my cussing. I went on Vanessa Hilton's podcast and said, should I stop cussing because I can see people's reaction to it? So I'm just philosophically in a difficult place with cussing generally. And so just watching all the cussing and the news that Ted Lasso is coming back for season four, and I really hate the way they cuss prolifically on that show, because I'd like to watch it with my kids and I can't. Even though my kids cuss, I think if I could go back again I would not cuss as openly in front of my kids as I did. At the time, I thought, well, I'm an adult; they should know the difference. But my kids cuss way more than I wish they did. That's just the truth.  

Beth [00:50:55] If you are lost on the Obama thing--  

Sarah [00:50:59] How could you be?  

Beth [00:51:00] You didn't happen to see this part of the convention. He talked about Trump being obsessed with crowd size and made a gesture with his hands. It indicated his crowd size obsession is related to his obsession with masculinity, okay? That's as delicately as I can put it. And it was startling in the arena. It was jarring. 

Sarah [00:51:25] Everybody was like, ooh! Literally everybody went, ooh! 

Beth [00:51:29] And I felt it. I felt it in my body more than I would have felt it if he had used a cuss word. It was just very, very jarring to me. I don't like the couch references. I think that's ridiculous and juvenile, and I am beyond ready to move away from it. I think some of this is that uncomfortable intersection of politics and celebrity, and that we're still trying to work that out and that the Obamas are specifically in a different space with that than other people. Coming out of office so young, having all of this time, making lots of money doing the Spotify stuff. I mean, the Obamas are really an intersection of celebrity and politics and have been since the beginning, that we're still figuring out.  

[00:52:20] In general, I am not bothered by any type of language in the right setting. But what I'm trying to figure out is what that setting is anymore. We had an email from a listener that was so kind because we do swear more on our premium channels. We just think of that space differently and is more casual. And most of what we hear back is that people love that because they feel like they're sitting around a table, maybe their patio with friends. And this listener said, I think I'm just of a different generation, and the conversational impact hits me differently. And I think that's a perfect way to talk about it. What is the conversational impact? So the gesture from Obama had an asteroid kind of conversational impact to me in that setting. When Tim Walz says, mind your own damn business it does not have that impact.  

Sarah [00:53:15] It doesn't hit. Yeah, I agree. My grandmother and my mother hate it when I cuss. And I used to cuss a lot more. And honestly, the more my kids cuss, the less I cuss. This is what I've noticed in my own life. When we were on a big trip in Japan this summer, Griffin got really frustrated at me and he told me, F you, mom. He did not say F, he said the real word. And his excuse was it's just not that big of a deal to me and my friends. And I said, well, it is to me. But then also, it wasn't like I burst into tears or I felt like he'd slap me because it is a word they just use a lot. And I feel like, well, the ship has sailed. What am I going to do at this point? And then I think I kind of get in it like, ugh, I really don't like the F you brand and stuff in people's yards on people's cars. I don't want to see that word on your hat when I'm walking around or a t-shirt. I just don't. I don't want it to become a word we use everywhere.  

[00:54:07] If you've been in a conversation with someone who uses it like a breath, like a 'like' or an 'a', it's a lot. Maybe it won't be in 20 years to my children, maybe it won't be. But it also removes other words from the language that we could be using instead. I struggle. I struggle with it because it's not that I think it makes you a bad person. It's not moral judgment. There is just a crassness to it still that has that impact to me. And I think there's a reason that very demure viral sound took off, because I think there is a little bit of longing for a dial back of the crassness. People want to say, wait, wait, wait, where is the line and in what areas? And is there no line anywhere? I think we're reaching a spot where everybody is going, I don't like where there's no line anywhere. Can we put some lines somewhere? And if you listen to the show long enough, you know I'm an old lady about that stuff. And so, yes, I am very DVR. I am very mindful.  

Beth [00:55:04] Ted Lasso is a great example. I think the swearing on Ted Lasso is especially annoying because the show otherwise is so feelgood. And you do want to share it with your kids. And you don't need the language to make it feel relatable. These characters feel human. I think politicians use these words to feel more like the everyman.  

Sarah [00:55:27] Yes, for sure.  

Beth [00:55:28] And they can overdo that. You have to keep that in a range before it becomes silly.  

Sarah [00:55:32] It has to feel authentic, which is why Tim Walz does it so well.  

Beth [00:55:36] Ted Lasso does not need that to feel authentic for these characters to feel like relatable people. And so it's obnoxious that they do it. Now, I have talked about and I've seen others make this point as well, that it feels like Harris-Walz want this to be a very Ted Lasso campaign. The finer point I would put on that, though, is Ted Lasso season one. Before the cussing is overdone and before it gets too heavy handed with the feel good. I think Ted Lasso season two and three in particular went way too hard in the direction of making some overtly political statements, and it lost some charm. And it seems to me like these two really want to keep it in that season one space. And I think that's where most of us would like to be, that season one space.  

Sarah [00:56:23] I'm assuming you're opposed to season four.  

Beth [00:56:26] I really wish they weren't doing it.  

Sarah [00:56:27] They're doing it, Beth.  

Beth [00:56:29] I know. I also think it's good to let things be enough.  

Sarah [00:56:34] Let things go. Let it be enough. I just watched Shotgun, which was brilliant. And they're working on a season two, I think, or they're talking about it. I'm like, don't. You just did a thing. You did a beautiful thing based on a book. You don't got to stretch it out. Let's just let it be the thing. There's enough out there. We're good. But people want to make that money.  

Beth [00:56:56] Well, and I understand. Sometimes I'll read a book and I'll be so sad that there is not a next book because I love the characters and I want to spend more time with the characters. I truly miss the Schitt's Creek people. They were so fun. I loved having them in my life. But also, I would rather revisit the really great work done there than them keep pumping out more work that feels less of the moment and less great and wonderful to me.  

Sarah [00:57:22] So true. Listen, I think that's the summary for the DNC. It didn't feel like a replay. It felt like we're going to go in a new direction. We're going to start. We're not going to pump out the same hits. We're going to do some new things. We're going to try on some new looks. We're going to introduce some new characters. And I was here for it.  

Beth [00:57:40] And maybe that's the summary on swearing. I don't need a hard and fast rule about it, but be mindful is a good way to approach it. Just enough, not too much. That Goldilocks place with the swearing, I think, is what we all need to go for. And I keep going back to our listener’s input. Just consider with the person in front of you-- hard to do when you're making a podcast. But the person in front of you, what is the conversational impact going to be on them?  

Sarah [00:58:07] Yeah, I love that.  

Beth [00:58:08] Well, thank you all so much for being here today. I met some new friends this weekend, Sarah, and they were asking me about what our thing is here and what do we do on Pantsuit Politics? And I said, we really just try to have good discussions that start good discussions for other people. I'm never trying to persuade anybody of something. I don't want them to listen and walk away being like that Beth just told me how things should be. We just want to have good conversations so that you can have good conversations in your life. And speaking of your people and your real lives, we've been having a Cameo sale and it's been wonderful. We're wrapping up that sale.  

[00:58:42] You can still buy Cameos, but the discount is winding down, so if you still want them, get in there. Because we have had the best time sending encouraging back to school messages, teachers and students. And I want to give special bonus points to those of you who have told us about how these have been received and sent pictures of people watching them. It's fantastic. Thank you so much. So you can check that out in our show notes. You can join us this week on our premium channels and meet us back here on Friday for hopefully more very good conversations.  

[00:59:09] Music Interlude. 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family. Ashley Rene. Michelle Palacios. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.   

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