Harris v. Trump: How We Got Here

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• J.D. Vance as Trump’s VP Pick

• The Path to President Biden Dropping Out

• The Campaign Launch of Kamala Harris

• The Veepstakes

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EPISODE RESOURCES

• Ezra Klein: A Path to Defeat - by Tim Miller (The Bulwark Podcast)

• Opinion | Trump, Biden, 2024: 11 Black Voters Discuss (The New York Times)

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] Hello, we are really glad to be here with you for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. We're back, live, together a week earlier than we planned because July, to put it mildly, was not conducive to taking a break.  

Sarah [00:00:41] I don't think we should have taken July off in a presidential year. Can someone put that in the notes? We won't do that again. We won't do that again.  

Beth [00:00:47] Lesson learned. And also, we don't foresee the new slowing down. So, we thought we better review what's happened so that we can hit August current in time. So, we're here together. We're excited to review everything that's transpired since June 27th, when President Biden and President Trump debated in Atlanta. And everything about this race that has seemed unchangeable changed.  

Sarah [00:01:09] Remember the debate? This is the thing my family and I do when we're-- especially when we're like traveling and we do something fantastic. And then either that evening or the next day, early in the morning, I say, "Remember when we did that? Remember?" Remember the debate, Beth?  

Beth [00:01:24] I do remember. Yes.  

Sarah [00:01:25] Oh, my God.  

Beth [00:01:26] Seared indelibly into my memory.  

Sarah [00:01:30] Also, remember that life will continue through this presidential election cycle. And if you would like help navigating that for your group or school or organization, we would love to help. We know that elections tend to bring up all kinds of conflict, including conflict that seems to have nothing to do with politics. And we've been talking about how to find value in conflict and disagreement for nine years. We've written two books, and we really believe this is a window to strengthen relationships and organizations and communities. And we'd love to come talk with you about that and how your organization or group or community, whatever, specifically can do that. So, reach out to Alise at Hello@pantsuitpolitics.com to learn more about bringing us to your community.  

Beth [00:02:14] Next up, let's process what happened in the presidential race while we were spending time with our families.  

[00:02:18] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:02:26] Beth, I was spending time with my family talking about Joe Biden. That's what I did across the great nation of Japan. I felt like Joe Biden was on the trip with me. That's how I felt.  

Beth [00:02:37] The way that you said, "Remember the debate?" is the way that my 13-year-old daughter said to me several times, "Mom, remember that you're on vacation? Remember you're not working right now, mom." Because I felt the same way. It was very present the entire time we were gone.  

Sarah [00:02:54] Me and Griffin in particular were in it. We were checking Twitter. Griffin was listening to streams of commentary as we were walking through holy shrines. And Nicholas was like, "Can we go one damn day without talking about Joe Biden?" I was like, no, we can't. I'm obsessed. I cannot fathom a path forward with this man as our nominee after the debate. And every day towards the end, there was a tweet that was like. In the morning, Joe's dropping out. In the afternoon, Joe's back. In the evening, things are changing. And that's what it felt like. Except for I was all inside out and upside down because I was 13 hours ahead. So, it just felt like I have never felt anything like this; that it was this up and down where it's going to happen, it's not going to happen. Every single day. It was so intense.  

Beth [00:03:48] So if you are new here, normally, the two of us take the month of July off. So, June 27th, we have the presidential debate, and Sarah and I make an episode about that debate. And both of us are in agreement that something has to change, that this is not going to work, that there has been a material shift with President Biden in terms of his capacity to continue in the race. And we had a lot of feelings come back to us in response to that, as you can imagine. And the whole world is in the midst of that conversation, discussion, argument when we leave for vacations with our family. So, Sarah and her crew go off to Japan. The next week, my family and I left. We did three days in London and the rest of our time in Scotland. As I am waiting to get on the plane to London, the news breaks that there has been an attempt on President Trump's life at his rally in Pennsylvania. So that's July 13th. Sarah is already in Japan at this time.  

Sarah [00:04:56] And we record again.  

Beth [00:04:57] And we record again.  

Sarah [00:04:59] From our vacations.  

Beth [00:05:00] From our vacations, from a bathroom in a London hotel and Sarah's Airbnb, I think, in Japan?  

Sarah [00:05:04] No, I was in the Grand Hotel at Noboribetsu. A famous onsen. I was at a hot spring.  

Beth [00:05:11] Perfect.  

Sarah [00:05:12] Yeah, relaxing.  

Beth [00:05:12] So, we'll record just a little bit about that. And then two days later, former President Trump announces that he has chosen Ohio Senator JD Vance to be his running mate, which we have talked about not at all. So, let's hover right there for a second. Sarah, when you heard JD Vance was the pick, what was your response? How were you thinking about that?  

Sarah [00:05:36] Well, at that point, I was still thinking about everything through the lens of is Joe Biden going to drop out or not? What's the impact of this assassination attempt? And I actually think, looking back on it now, that the convention being held so soon after the assassination attempt was ultimately a net negative for Donald Trump and the Republican Party. I don't know if they could have done anything different. A convention is such a behemoth of an organizational task. I'm sure people were already there. I don't necessarily think they could have just been like, we're going to pause it. Although, maybe I think they would have had the sort of goodwill and understanding on their side because of the security concerns, but they didn't.  

[00:06:23] And what it felt like to me is that it truncated. The analysis, the processing, the focus on the assassination attempt. It got swept into the convention in this very performance way with the ear bandage on him, which I think was very performance driven, and on everybody else, which was such-- again, our new favorite word-- weird. Weird thing to do to put these bandages on your ear. And especially the way that he spoke at the convention, he did that little 20 minutes about the assassination attempt and then went right back into his old way of being this long, drawn out, incomprehensible riffs on weird subjects and extreme views. And I think you kind of look at JD Vance through the lens of all that. Like that they were feeling confident. That they were feeling there's no way they could lose. That they could lean in to a lot of the MAGA base and reward the MAGA base.  

[00:07:33] And. J.D. Vance becomes the pick, which I think will be seen ultimately just as bad a decision as the early debate. Because I think it was a like a confident, performance-driven pick, right? And that is not the decision you make when the race is tight, when you have a opponent that doesn't seem easily defeated. But, I mean, this is time travel to a certain extent. They didn't know what we know now, and they definitely didn't know that they were going to have an assassination attempt a few days before the convention. But now looking back on it-- and it felt that way to me because I remember Griffin saying like, "We won't even be talking about this assassination attempt in a few days." And I was like, that's crazy, Griffin. Of course, we were like this is a big deal, but dang, he was right. We just moved on. And I think the convention pushed that further along.  

Beth [00:08:26] I agree with most of that. Even though they didn't know what we know now, when I heard it was Vance, the only thing that I could think about was what does he get from this? Because JD Vance does not buy him the kind of credibility that everyone said he really wanted when he was searching for his VP the first time. That he wanted a governor because he felt that lent some gravitas to the ticket. And I thought, well, JD Vance doesn't get him that.  

Sarah [00:08:57] Yeah, he has no experience at all.  

Beth [00:08:59] He doesn't need JD Vance to win Ohio. He'll win Ohio anyway by a lot. JD Vance is a great fundraiser, and so I could see it from that angle. But Doug Burgum has his own money, which is even better. And also, is networked into a lot of good fundraising. So I was really perplexed by the analysis. It has made sense to me to read some of the reporting that his sons and Tucker Carlson really pushed him on this. I'm surprised that he gave in to that, honestly. And I think he wouldn't have if he knew what we know now. I also think that's kind of bananas, because it did seem foreseeable that something was going to have to shift on the Democratic side. And why they didn't take that into account in making this pick, I don't know.  

Sarah [00:09:46] This is back to what I always say. He doesn't miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. And I do not think that the people running his campaign, even Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles, his campaign directors, I just don't think that they're the brain trusts some people make them out to be. I think they make bad calls all the time. After the assassination attempt, I texted a friend of mine who's a big Trump supporter, and it's so funny, we were having this conversation and she said, "I really think it's about the last person who talks to him." And I thought, well, ain't that the truth? I think I love that she thinks the same thing I do, which is whoever is in his ear last, whoever makes the most persuasive case last can get what they want.  

[00:10:30] Now, that's true for a lot of us, right? That's the basic human condition in a lot of ways. But I do wonder if it was just Don Jr.-- by all accounts is very close friends with J.D. Vance-- and Tucker Carlson pushing him. If he wanted this sort of champion who will do whatever it takes should he lose to try to upend the election results, I don't know if he was looking for that more than he was looking for legitimacy. I mean, obviously, he doesn't need as much governing legitimacy since he's been president before. Maybe that's what he told himself.  

Beth [00:11:06] Yeah, maybe.  

Sarah [00:11:07] But I think it was just overconfidence. The part that doesn't make sense to me is you knew what he'd said about you previously. You knew enough Donald Trump to know that they're going to put up every weird thing you said, in particular, calling you Hitler. Why would you want that? But maybe it's the I turned him. He hated me so much and look, now he loves me. Maybe he loved that storyline. I try to see it through the circus master reality television angle. And the plot line of that makes sense to me through his lens.  

Beth [00:11:44] I find that strange too, though, in that I don't think JD Vance is good on television. And Donald Trump really is good at recognizing who's good on television. Now, I understand that the campaign blueprint is not to reach out to someone like me. That suburban mom has been struck from the ledger of voters that Donald Trump is trying to appeal to. So maybe the demographics that he wants look at JD Vance on TV and think, rah, rah, I love this guy, but I don't see that at all. So, everything about this was pretty surprising to me, except the money angle and the friendship with his kids.  

Sarah [00:12:23] Now, I will say, since the pick and since the long, bad, weird convention speeches where the highlight was apparently Hulk Hogan. Okay, cool.  

Beth [00:12:34] What a time to be alive.  

Sarah [00:12:36] Listen, I saw Hulk Hogan in Florida in April. That's what my kids kept saying every time. They're like, "Remember that time we saw Hulk Hogan in Saint Pete?" I'm like, "I do." Is that I'm even surprised by how badly this rollout of J.D. Vance has gone. You guys, I'm tired of the couch jokes. I don't even want to hear the couch jokes anymore. It's gone so poorly. That cat lady quote of his is going to be as bad, if not worse, than Hillary's deplorable quote. That is so offensive. When you make Jennifer Aniston mad guys, I think you're in trouble. I just think you're in trouble. He shows no capacity, JD Vance, to clean this up at all. He just makes it worse. And I don't think he can change gears at all.  

Beth [00:13:29] And it is a penetrating quote. So, you don't have to spend all day online to have heard about it now. And then his clean up to be that he doesn't have anything against cats, that penetrates too. Like the mean spiritedness of the initial statement and also the response to the backlash is breakthrough stuff that gets to the average person. I try to remind myself constantly, because the memes have been so good for a couple of weeks, that this is not where the election takes place. Do not be deceived, Beth, by thinking that what you see online translates to what's happening in reality. But I am hearing from my not-absorbed-by-politics online friends the things that are percolating to the top of the online sector too.  

Sarah [00:14:17] Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's really gotten through. And it is so satisfying to me. I've seen a lot of people be like, I'm so glad we locked the when-they-go-low-we-go-high people in the closet. I would like to let them out just a little bit because we have to be careful. I think it is penetrating and impactful to say they are weird and mean. Because that's what's so mind numbing and frustrating in the MAGA era of politics, is that it becomes all consuming. There's no moment where we go timeout. That's weird. The fact that Hulk Hogan is up there tearing his shirt off and saying, "If you're not a Trumper, you're not an American," it's mean. And it's also weird. Guys, remember when politics used to be normal?  

[00:15:04] So I don't want to go so far. And that's why I'm like enough with the couch stuff. Because also, I don't want to have a conversation with my nine-year-old about what it means to have sex with the couch, which I had to and I did not appreciate. So, pump the brakes. We don't want to follow their weirdness on offense so far that then we get sucked into it. I think we're walking the line really well right now, and I just want to be careful because I don't want it to become name calling. Like, that's what's weird and bad about them. I don't want to get into that.  

Beth [00:15:34] Well, and the we and them has to fade in order to win an election. Especially in order to do well in Congress. And so, I've seen so many people posting the proclamation that when you say things about women in power, that woman doesn't see it, but your daughters and granddaughters and nieces, whatever, see it. I think that's true. But I think it's true in every single direction. When you post about people online, they don't see it, but the people who identify with them do. And I do think the couch stuff risks shrinking things back down. I think a lot of the enthusiasm is so exciting, and I don't want to harsh anyone's buzz. But I also think that there does have to be always in your mind the sense of this is an election; how do we create space?  

[00:16:27] How do you more people feel like there's room for them to be a part of this? They're not going to be attacked. That's what Republicans need to do. It's really significant to me that Donald Trump's campaign has so openly said they're not competing for me anymore. Okay, well, if you're announcing that-- I would never have voted for Trump anyway. But if you're announcing that and the whole party is comfortable with that as a strategy, my windows start to close for down ballot candidates who I might have considered voting for. I don't want that mistake to be made by those of us who are enthusiastic about Vice President Harris's campaign.  

Sarah [00:17:07] Well, I think that that's a good entryway back to our timeline at the convention, because I think the other narrative around the convention is that this was going to be a newer, softer Donald Trump. Tucker Carlson is like when a man gets shot in the head, it really changes things. And now here we are, less than a month later, and he's openly saying, "I'm not changing. I'm worse. I'm worse than I was before." Which I would like to put in a commercial immediately, please. Thank you so much. We got lots of money. So, we're back at the convention and there's still some of that is he going to be different? He does that long, meandering speech. Ezra Klein came out immediately and was like this will revive and make it even harder for Joe Biden to stay in the race, because this shows he is beatable. Because there was this sense of like, this is it, it's over. We're going to get a second term of Donald Trump because Joe Biden is not going to step aside. That made it impossible to turn away from this even on vacation, because I was like, no, no, no, no, no.  

[00:18:01] That's why I'm endlessly proud of all of our listeners who called and wrote and got in their representatives faces and their governor's faces, and would not let this go. And said, no, if you can't see past this, we can. And you represent us, and we think there's another option besides just succumbing to the idea of a second Donald Trump presidency. We don't want that. And so, you guys find a way. And I think the Lord Almighty and Nancy Pelosi got involved and said, no, this is unacceptable. This is not going to happen. Because right after the convention, Joe Biden got Covid and that's the day I woke up to the American News and thought, okay, everything feels different. The combo of that long speech and him getting Covid, that's felt like the moment when things shifted. Is that what it felt like to you?  

Beth [00:18:59] I think so. I also want to give Ezra Klein a lot of credit here.  

Sarah [00:19:03] So much credit.  

Beth [00:19:04] I never heard him saying we should just give up. And what felt really risky that he did that I have so much respect for-- you and I aren't journalists. We can just show up here and say, this is what I see. This is what I think. This is what I hope. Ezra Klein has all of the connections of someone who works with the New York Times and has been doing journalists for years. And I thought it was really courageous of him to share that his off the record conversations sounded like Democrats in office saying, well, a second Trump term probably won't be that bad.  

[00:19:43] And that is what was particularly galling to me; that people were sitting around and making the calculation that within the party, it is more important for me to bite my tongue about what I really believe is right in this moment and play the long-term future within the party, and put America through another four years of Donald Trump without giving it everything we've got to prevent that. I thought that was galling, and I would not have known that if Ezra Klein had not started sharing what he was hearing in those private conversations. And that was a risk. And I really value that he took the risk.  

Sarah [00:20:21] I thought that moment that he got on the mic with Tim Miller and they were both like, "This is what we hear anonymously," was really powerful and impactful. I'm tired of hearing people busting on The New York Times. Stop it. Just stop. I don't want to hear it anymore. If you don't like everything that comes out of their opinion page, fine. But stop melding it.  

Beth [00:20:41] Well, nobody does.  

Sarah [00:20:42] Nobody does. That's the point. But stop melding it with the biggest, most well-funded, most well-staffed journalistic organization in the United States, if not the world. These are real journalists on the ground doing incredible work. Now, do I have beef with some of the way The New York Times runs itself, do I have beef with op-ed stories that sometimes look like news stories? Yes, of course I do. But what they did, the way they put themselves out there over and over on that op ed page, through his work and through the editorial board choices to say, "No, Joe Biden can't do this; we're going to say what needs to be said," was incredibly impactful. Like the tip of that spear was The New York Times.  

[00:21:28] And then you get Nancy Pelosi, then you get Chuck Schumer, then you get Hakeem Jeffries, then you get citizens like us who understood things and who felt like, okay, well, if the New York Times can say it, I can start calling. That was impactful. And they're not going to just prop up Kamala Harris. That wouldn't be good for her. So, if you're mad at some of the things they say about her moving forward, that's fine. But she needs that. That will make her a stronger candidate. It would be doing her no favors to just prop her up and never criticize her or her campaign. And it's like that's what people want. And I think that's outrageous. Sorry, I'm getting ahead on our timeline, but it's really been bothering me.  

Beth [00:22:05] I would like to dissect with you a little bit your reaction to the idea that the way the New York Times handled this, the way that a number of politicians, a number of podcasters, that all of that call for Biden to step aside became disrespectful to President Biden. I've been really trying to think through that. I went back and listen to our episodes because I really wanted to think through what have I said about this? How have I said it? What's my posture been? And what is in the range of appropriate around a conversation that does touch on some really sensitive matters?  

Sarah [00:22:47] If you sensed a tone of disrespect coming from me towards Joe Biden, then you were correct because I lost a lot of respect for Joe Biden between June 27th and July 21st. And let me just say that, I did. I did. Nicholas's refrain the whole time was, "It could have been different, Joe. It could have been different, Joe." And now, look, do I think history will remember these three weeks? Not really. I think history will remember him as sacrificing his ego, which he ultimately did, and stepping aside and doing the right thing for the Democratic Party and for America. And that's in the end, what matters. But I'll remember those three weeks and they sucked. And I hated every minute of it. And as I get more space, I'm getting to a place where I'm like, it is such a huge thing he did. To think it was going to happen quickly was not fair.  

[00:23:42] But also, some of the reporting particularly around his family, it was problematic. There's just no other way to say it. And I had this conversation with my two best guy friends, Mike and Smith, and I said, "I had such warmth and affection for him," as I think so many people did. For beating Donald Trump, for coming to our aid. And my friend Smith was like, look, I don't do that with politicians. I don't do that anymore. They don't deserve it. Like, this whole sort of warmth and affection, which we all are doing right now with Kamala 100%. And, look, I would be lying to myself and all of you. Y'all know me well enough to think that I'm not going to do that again. Listen, I'm an enthusiastic convert. Am a zealot; it's just in my blood. And so, it is hard for me not to fall into that like fandom. And I think that's what it was. It was bumping up against pop with the ice cream and the sunglasses, with all the grandkids who he loved and had such affection for.  

[00:24:43] But it is not disrespect. He works for us. And if he's not doing the job that he does for us, then we have every right to say, you're not doing the work that you promised. And that's what was so hard for me, is I felt betrayed. I sat on this podcast and I said I trust Joe Biden. If he says he can do the job, then he can do the job. But he was wrong. And either he was lying to himself or he was lying to me. And that was really, really heartbreaking. And dealing with that heartbreak and articulating that, and articulating that sense of betrayal and frustration is not disrespectful. It's what happens in a relationship. And did we all have too much of a relationship with Joe Biden? Yeah, probably. Are we going to continue to make that mistake with other presidents? Yeah, probably. But when my friend Smith said that, I thought, yeah, he's right. That's exactly what happened.  

Beth [00:25:28] Yeah, I don't do that much with politicians either. And it's because I would say they don't deserve it in a bunch of different directions. I think what is also disrespectful to President Biden is to say he has to stay in because we don't believe there's time or anybody else who can beat Trump. The stakes are so high that he has to do this, even if he's not up for it. I think that's also disrespectful. I've tried to think about the health side of things because the most hurtful things anyone has ever said to me, they almost all go in the bucket of comments about my body.  

[00:26:08] Almost everything is about my health and how it affects other people, how it disappoints them, how it bugs them. When I make a list of the most hurtful experiences I've had with other people, they almost all revolve around health. And so, I've tried to think about that in connection with this conversation, but I don't think it is disrespectful to point out that for a couple of years now the average voter through poll after poll and focus group after focus group and survey after survey has said, "I think this is too old for the job."  

[00:26:42] And so, the idea that it was disrespectful for "elites" to push on the president when ordinary people had voted for him in this primary, felt totally upside down to me. Because I think the elites finally caught up. I think the elites pushed him through that primary and pushed out anybody else who could make a difference in that primary. To act like Dean Phillips made a real run for it, and that that opportunity was really there for that discussion is false. And so, I don't think this would have happened without people pushing as hard as they did, especially because there was a push from the other side as well. He has to do it. I think his family probably felt like a sense of duty around this. Now, how duty gets tied up with ego, I don't know.  

[00:27:36] And that's a case study that's as old as people in governing positions, right? And I don't begrudge anybody that. I was prepared to say I'm sorry if I felt like I had said anything that was truly out of bounds about this, but I went back and looked at it and I feel pretty comfortable. I just think this is how it had to be, and I'm sorry about that. But that was also his decision. He had more information at all times than any of us did, and his team had more information at all times than any of us did about the acceleration of any issues that he might be experiencing that would prevent him from campaigning vigorously.  

Sarah [00:28:16] The ride with Biden response was maddening. It was maddening to me. I thought, do I live on a different planet? And my desperate hope because I have seen lots of people (Gabrielle Blair) say, "I was wrong, and I'm so happy that I was wrong," that it's sort of cleared the cobwebs, let some sunlight in to some really jacked up responses we have inside the Democratic Party on the progressive left. First of all, any criticism is it's racist. The way that Pod Save America and these guys were really putting themselves out there and pushing, were being accused of being racist was ridiculous. And I hope that we've exposed that knee jerk reaction if someone with some platform and some privilege says something that you disagree with, then all of a sudden, they're racist. And we can just stop doing that because it was ridiculous. Like, that was a ridiculous moment.  

[00:29:15] We got it. I got it in my DMs. I don't want to do that anymore. It just so happened to come out at a time where the New York Times had done this profile of black male voters, where they were, like, we're tired of being treated like victims and we're being treated like a monolith. And that's why I'm turning to Trump. That's why this is appealing to me, is because I don't want to be treated like a victim. I don't want to be treated like just I participated in the system that oppresses me at all times. I hate that narrative coming from the Democratic Party. And so, I hope we can be honest about that. And I think part of that is having Kamala at the top of the ticket and seeing that it's not about victimhood, that being a black woman in America can mean that you're at the most powerful position. That you have an incredible perspective that isn't all about being a part of systemic oppression.  

[00:30:13] So, I'm hoping that that moment swept some cobwebs out so we could say, does this make sense? Not just that response, but this cynicism that people thought that this meant that the party elite-- I don't even know who they're talking about, truly I don't. I guess Nancy Pelosi. That they were going to push in some tech guy. I was like, where is this coming from? And I'm just going to be honest. And it's going to sound mean, and I apologize for that in advance. Some of the responses online, Twitter, the sort of ride with Biden people, were people who had obviously never actually worked in Democratic politics. Who had no experience with campaigns, primaries or the party processes themselves, because if they did, they would know that it's not how it works.  

[00:31:10] Like it's just the idea that she would be pushed aside. I mean, we said it immediately after the debate. We were like, if it has to be Kamala, fine. Great. That sounds great with us. And I honestly have not been surprised by the way people coalesced around her, because it's basic human psychology, right? Changing the status quo is scary; and so, if someone exhibits leadership, you will follow them. I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned here, and I hope that one of them is this sort of like cynical, conspiracy corporate-laden narrative that we also often have inside the Democratic Party, is not right. It's just not right. When people would articulate after the fact what their fears were about this, I'm like, what are you talking about? That's what you were afraid of? That's crazy to me.  

Beth [00:32:01] I think it came from a whole bunch of different angles, and that ultimately there was a tinge of fear for everybody. I was afraid that if President Biden stayed in, he would lose badly and that the House and the Senate would also be lost. I was afraid of that. I was also afraid of him having a truly traumatic health event in front of the entire world. I had many fears. And I understand that people who saw it differently than I did had many fears too, and that's why it could have been a really hard thing to move past. But it seems to have not been a really hard thing to move past for the vast majority of people. So, let's take a short break and come back and talk about Harris for president.  

[00:32:45] Music Interlude.  

[00:32:53] Sarah, when you and I recorded the second time from our various locations around the world unexpectedly.  

Sarah [00:32:59] I was at a shrine.  

Beth [00:33:01] Yes. You were outside, I remember, at a shrine.  

Sarah [00:33:03] I was outside at a shrine.  

Beth [00:33:05] I was in an Airbnb in the Highlands of Scotland, and we both said let's just have it be Vice President Harris.  

Sarah [00:33:14] Yeah, it's fine. It's great. Let's do it.  

Beth [00:33:16] And I wonder if you were surprised in any way by the way that her campaign came together or the way that the delegates said, yeah, sure, let's do it.  

Sarah [00:33:26] No. Again, I really wasn't. And everybody's like, oh, it's a coronation. I'm like, no, it's just party politics. This is a party. The whole thing of like-- I love Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I really do. I think she's one of the smartest people in politics right now. But that hour-long thing she did where she was like, they'll sue, they'll keep us off the ballot. I'm like, what are you talking about? The Democratic Party is not a country. There are no laws involving how we pick our nominee. This is just how we decide to do it, and we can decide to do it any way we want. Beth, as you know, I have been advocating for a return to the smoke-filled room for a while. I love a smoke-filled room-- not really because it makes my throat itch, but the proverbial smoke-filled room. I think that's great. I think we need to go back to a party process where people who understand elections, what wins and what loses them, instead of incredibly low turnout primaries where people maybe a little bit know who's running, but mostly don't, and it's just a popularity contest. Like, pass.  

[00:34:32] I want to go back to where people, hardcore party players like Nancy Pelosi, you're like, but what did the polls say? Bring it to me. Give it to me. So, this whole "coronation", no, that's what a party process was for most of American history. That's okay with me. And I think the delegates, the people in state parties, in elections, on the ground, organizing, looking around, going, okay, well, we got about a week. She's the vice president. We're going to figure this out. And I think what was surprising to most people-- but I want to hear what you think, if it was actually surprising to you. Because it wasn't to me. That this sort of hope and change just groundswell has been so overwhelming. Because we've been saying forever Americans like elections about the future. They don't want to talk about the past. They want to talk about the future. And so, I'm in this paradoxical, like, is this the moment where we finally moved into a new era of politics, or is this where we're going back to some of the old rules we kept saying, like, are they the same rules? Are there new rules now? Honestly, I can make the argument for both. So, I want to hear what you think.  

Beth [00:35:53] I think they've bent the rules the whole time. I think something that Republicans have always understood-- and I've said this in a million HR workshops, you have the power that you take. And I think Republicans have known that for a long time. It's part of the reason the Republican Party has been really effective in campaigning and in building durable state legislatures, and sometimes disenfranchising certain populations through gerrymandering. Republicans take power when they have it. That's what project 2025 is about, and we're going to talk more about in the coming weeks. But it is about saying we have power, let's take it. And I think that's been true in the parties. Remember the super delegate conversation when it looked like it might be very tight between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders? The party would have decided, because it is ultimately the party's process, getting Donald Trump across the finish line this year was the result of lots of rules changes, party by party, across the country. You could also call that a coronation if you wanted to.  

Sarah [00:36:55] Absolutely.  

Beth [00:36:55] There are places where people went to vote in a primary that did not determine the allocation of delegates to the Republican National Convention. What bothers me in the use of the coronation language around the vice president is that once again, you have the power you take. She did not sit on her hands. The second this door opened she walked all the way through it very decisively. She could have said, "Well, we need to see what the party says, and they'll probably be a process. And I welcome others to the race." And she did none of that. She showed up and said, "I intend to win this." And that was perfect because it had respect. If there was going to be a process, a mini primary or whatever, she said, "I'm going to win it." But she announced to everyone her intention. The two women that got us through this situation, that made this a happy time instead of a very dark one for most Democrats are Nancy Pelosi and the Vice president. And that's why the coronation language bothers me, because she left open all possibilities. The party could do whatever it was going to do, and it's the parties to decide. But she definitively announced that she was going to be a leader in the process, and that it could have gone very differently.  

Sarah [00:38:08] Well, listen, I don't mind coronation because I don't mind being a queen, and I don't think Kamala Harris does either. But it's just, to me, it's not even that moment where she picked up the phone and called a hundred people in like ten hours; it was the way that she had been walking the line since the debate. Forcefully defending him in a way that showed she could do it. Doing speeches in a way that's like showed like, would you like this instead? But never going at him. Like, owning the record. I mean, it was hard.  

Beth [00:38:41] It was so hard.  

Sarah [00:38:42] I don't think we should move so quickly into how well she's launched this presidential campaign after he withdrew without recognizing what she did in those three weeks was also exceptionally difficult. And she did it very well. You never got any anonymous reporting from the Biden campaign that Kamala Harris was gunning for them, and they felt betrayed by her. I didn't see any that did. Did you?  

Beth [00:39:08] No. And her team wasn't leaking their actual concerns about the president. There were a ton of ways this could have gone, and it didn't. And that's pretty amazing.  

Sarah [00:39:18] Back in the day when she was in the primary, I have some close friends who are in the same social circle as many of her sort of big fundraisers and close consultants and stuff. And they kept saying she's exceptional, she's strategic, she's so good. And I thought, well, man, I'm not seeing it in this primary. And I just think, I wonder if some of it is she really is not this hardcore California liberal; she is this moderate and this pragmatist and this former attorney general and law enforcement. And I don't know if she couldn't find the path when we had this post George Floyd moment and she was mismatched to the moment and that's why we couldn't see the skill bubble up. But, man, when she's matched to the moment, like right now, I'm seeing everything I was being told back in 2020.  

[00:40:11] You could not craft a better campaign rollout than what we have witnessed over the last week. You could not do it. It would be impossible. And I think the one thing that really bugs me about the coverage is that the media has adopted the Trump campaign's framework, that this is a "honeymoon period" which really bothers me. Stop using their framework for that, because I don't think that's what this is. I think so much of the way people are like, oh, she might get a little bump, but then it's going to be really hard. And I think it's smart that she's out there saying we're underdogs, because to a certain extent we are. Let me just put it this way, Beth. I don't think we're done being surprised by this campaign for this election.  

Beth [00:40:57] I agree with that. I think you're right that she struggled in the 2020 campaign because 2020 was a struggle. No one was the best version of themselves in 2020, I certainly wasn't. You had the Trump administration, which broke all of our brains in a bunch of different respects. It certainly broke mine. I look back-- I've said this before, I'll say it again-- with a lot of regret about much of what I said and how I said it during that time because it was hard. You had Covid. You had this very crowded Democratic primary field and you had the post George Floyd racial reckoning that's going on. Also, she wasn't all that experienced on the national stage at that point. She hadn't been a senator very long. And being a senator is really different from being an attorney general and really different from being a presidential candidate. And so, for all the raw talent that she had-- I don't know what a Barack Obama would have looked like in 2020. It was a different landscape for somebody to try that path of I'm a pretty new senator, but I'm making a splash. Let me go for it.  

Sarah [00:42:06] And it's not like he didn't make any mistakes along the way. It was like two years before he was the presidential candidate. Remember arugula? I do.  

Beth [00:42:13] Now, look, I am on the record as someone who has been very impressed by the vice president and has followed her closely and felt she's been dealt a bogus hand in the coverage of her. I have also heard from sources that I think are quite credible that she is hell on earth to work for. And I think that that matters and is important, and I'm not going to lie about that or sugarcoat it in any respect. I also think that she is well matched to this moment. I think that she is a very good age. I think 59 is a very good age to run for president. I think she's learned a ton being the vice president. I think she's learned a ton being the vice president in the three years since people stopped paying attention to her as the vice president. Now, I place a lot of blame on Team Biden for not highlighting her work throughout the entire term. I think that was calculated, and I think it was wrong, and I think it's a problem now. But I also think that she had a chance to just learn stuff. And she is first and foremost a lawyer. And lawyers are good learners.  

[00:43:24] You got to go to school on something new with every matter you take on as a lawyer, and you just see that with her. That she's internalized a lot. She's listened. She's honed her public speaking even more than she had before. She can speak in a variety of different ways. She's warm and there has been no warmth for at least 10 years in our politics. I admire President Biden. I've never called him pops. I don't feel that warmth from him. She's very warm. I think people were thirsty and she is a drink of water. It doesn't make her the perfect candidate, but it doesn't surprise me that this enthusiasm exists. And I agree with you, I don't think this is a honeymoon. I think it is a real shift in where we are and what people are looking for. There's a reason everybody keeps sharing the memes of her practically running down the steps of a plane in her heels, because the subtext of that is she's not going to fall. You know what I mean? There is a new day here, and I think it's healthy and good and I'm excited about it.  

Sarah [00:44:30] Well, and I can see it with Griffin. He is like, well, people haven't had anything to vote for in 10 years. And I'm like, well, I quibble with that because I was voting for Hillary Clinton and not just against Donald Trump, but I understand a lot of people weren't. Put a pin in that, because I also did not like the way people were like the best part about Kamala Harris is it'll really stick it to Hillary Clinton. You know nothing about Hillary Clinton if you think that's her perception of this. You do not understand that woman for one minute if you think her reaction to this is going to be sour grapes. You can walk all the way off stage with that bullshit. So let me just get that off my chest. People want this. People like elections that are exciting and empowering and give a vision for the future. I think the way she in the moment recognized that we're not going back, it gave me chills. Because that's what people want.  

[00:45:25] We all know that there's challenges in front of us with AI and climate change and all these generational challenges for all generations, not just younger generations. And to see someone who recognizes that and who, oh, I don't know, will be alive in 20 years, hopefully, is so exciting. But I think the way that they've navigated that is not always easy to navigate that energy. The way that they've done the Kamala Is Brat Charli XCX, left it online and not let her lean into it has been so expert. And don't forget she's dealing with the Biden staff. It's not like she got all new campaign staff. It's not like these are all Kamala loyalists, but these are good staffers. Our team has worked with this team several times. And Maggie and Alise are always like, they're professionals. They're so good. They're so, so, so good. And so, to watch the way that they've shifted-- because let's be honest, they're probably excited too.  

[00:46:28] I feel so bad for what the staff must have gone through over those three weeks. And now to be in this position, to have a candidate that so many people are excited for-- and I don't think it's just the Democratic base. My mom is giving monthly, like we hear all the time from listeners. You see it online places you wouldn't think to see this groundswell of support and excitement. Out in BFE Texas and other places. People are excited. And that is not just a honeymoon. For months people had this dread about a presidential race that was going to be Biden and Trump. And I think, ultimately, Nikki Haley was right. The first party that blinks and says, we listened-- just like Jason Kanter's take that was so good immediately after the debate. The first part of it says, we hear you, we're going to do something different, is going to be rewarded. And I don't think that's a honeymoon.  

Beth [00:47:20] I agree with all of that. I also really like how she's finding that this tone that is confident but not cocky and not hyperbolic. So, when she was asked about Trump backpedaling on the debate schedule, I thought she handled that perfectly. I'm ready. Let's do it. Good. That's enough. Fantastic. I like the way she's talked about project 2025. I think "Can you believe they wrote that down?" is perfect. That's plenty. You know what I mean? Because it really puts it in its place, but it does not do the end of the world if Trump gets elected. What we've learned over the last 18 months of consistent vibes in this race, seemingly unshakable vibes in this race, is that the people who believe the world will end or some version of that, that it will be incredibly damaging if Trump is president again, have decided.  

[00:48:18] People have decided on that question, that doesn't get you over the finish line. So continuing to double and triple down on that and do it in even more extreme terms, I think we're running out of words, that's not going to get it done. It is going to take a fresh tone to shift the persuadable people. And I think this vibe of like, they're kind of silly, aren't they? They're weird. They're mean. And we can do better than that. And I'm ready to do it. Let's just do it. That's right to me. That feels so good.  

Sarah [00:48:52] I wonder what would have happened in 2020 if she'd had the opportunity to get on a stage with him and go, you're being weird. Like, stop being weird. You're being weird. Even the project 2025 stuff, I know that people have dramatic concerns about that. I get it. Even the stuff you said yesterday about you'll never have to vote again, and the way people freak out about that, again, I get it. However, to me, where I sit and watching low information voters, I think it makes him look more powerful than he is. I think it lends a lens of power and legitimacy and seriousness that Donald Trump does not deserve. He just doesn't. I think for low information voters, it is about vibes. That's why this moment is so powerful. Because honestly, let us get back to vibes.  

[00:49:45] Because I don't think she's going to have to litigate the border and inflation the way people think she is. I just don't. I'm sorry. It's a short amount of time. It's going to be a lot of vibes. To keep the vibe of, like, he's weird. Do you not remember that he's just a weird, unserious man who talks about Hannibal Lecter and electrifying sharks and is nasty and mean to women? Do you not remember all that? Because I think people go, oh, ugh, yeah, I do. And I think the other side of the vibes is okay because I am the esthetics correspondent at Pantsuit Politics, I know people are not going to like me talking about Kamala Harris's appearance, and they're going to think it's sexist, but it's important, and I'm sorry. I think that Kamala Harris is pretty, for one thing. 

That's a first, I think, privilege she has. I saw somebody in twitter call it pretty privilege and I think that's true. Tell me if you think I'm crazy. And I will listen if you say, Sarah, that's too much. That's crazy. But I also think like Hollywood for probably 10 or 15 years has been doing like female person of color president casting in all our big films. You know what I mean? I don't think we've had a white guy as a president in a movie since Harrison Ford did. You know what I'm saying? And she just feels that vibe. To me, she feels to me like if I was casting a Hollywood film, I would cast Kamala Harris as president. I think she has the esthetic. I would do it. I think she'd do great at it. And I'm sorry, I don't think that's irrelevant. We're a visually driven people. We watch a lot of TikToks and a lot of reels and a lot of TV, and I think it matters. I'm sorry. I just need to get that off my chest, too.  

Beth [00:51:34] Look, I think it would be interesting to hear Donald Trump weigh in on that question, because he knows that he cares a lot about that. He cares a lot about that central casting vibe. You read it in every account of his presidency. I agree with you that she's a beautiful woman. She's put together in the way that we want female politicians to be put together esthetically. I think that's the Hollywood thing that resonates with me, that you would style her the way that she dresses. Like she with.  

Sarah [00:51:59] The swoop blouse [crosstalk]. I loved it.  

Beth [00:52:01] The swoop blouses. The silk look. There's a lot of richness there. It's luxurious, but not in your face. It's not risky. She's not trying to be too feminine, but it's not boring. It looks authentic to her. I do think there's a lot esthetically that works. I want to talk about vibes for a second though on the other side. So, what you were saying about the legitimacy granted to Trump when you talked about [inaudible] fascist and all of that, here's what I see in it. I think that it's less about him and more about it reinforcing an existing view of Democrats as hyperbolic, fearful people. And I think that's extremely damaging.  

Sarah [00:52:47] Would you say snowflakes?  

Beth [00:52:48] Something like snowflakes, perhaps. Yes, I think that's really damaging. It has bothered me to see all the posting about Republicans trying to sue to prevent a new candidate from being on the ballot. Because I think that reinforces the sense of, like, we're fearful. You know what I say, if Mike Johnson wants to tell the American people that they should only have one choice on their ballot for president, good. Put that in every headline. Announced from the rooftops that Republicans are going to sue to try to block the Democratic Party from having a nominee on your ballot. That's bananas. That's crazy town. Nobody wants that. And I think that's great news for Democrats. File the lawsuits. Look, they are going to sue about lots of things. Everybody sues about things. You're not right because you filed a lawsuit. You're not going to win because you filed a lawsuit. And I think that her posture hard won from being a prosecutor. Hard won is bring it on. A little lawsuit doesn't scare me. I'd be happy to litigate this with you. And I think that's a posture that I always want to inhabit. Okay, make your best argument, but I'm confident in where I stand and I'll meet it when it comes to me.  

Sarah [00:54:05] So true. As you're saying that I'm like, yeah, how is she doing this? I'm going to need some doctoral thesis. How is she navigating so perfectly this seriousness in combination with the coconut memes? I don't know how she's doing it. I don't know how she's doing it, Beth.  

Beth [00:54:32] I think I have a few answers to that. Number one, I do think having spent a lot of time in a courtroom is showing on her right now. Number two, think about some of the things that she's had to do as vice president. When President Biden completely pissed off Emmanuel Macron about the submarines in Australia. You remember this? She's the one that had to go over there and meet with Macron.  

Sarah [00:54:59] Interesting.  

Beth [00:55:00] She has been in so many thorny situations. If truly the ambassadors have been whispering about his health for months, you know that she's had to back clean up on that. She's been in the peace summits about Ukraine. She's been at the table about Israel. She's had a lot of practice that nobody was watching. And practice is way better when nobody's watching, right? I just think she's figured this out. And she's been watching and thinking, what would I do? What would I say? How will I handle this if this comes to pass? And I think all of that shows, and I also think she has a very healthy marriage with a very supportive spouse. It seems like her whole family situation is extremely grounded. And I took from reading Michael Coppins excellent book about Mitt Romney, how much that matters. That you can really be a different type of politician if what's happening at home is extremely solid and supportive, and I think she has that.  

Sarah [00:56:01] I think beyond just the more recent pieces of her history, I mean, she has a complicated identity where she has had to navigate different worlds and different identities between her Indian mother and her black father and growing up in America, going to a historically black college, all these different aspects of herself. And, to me, back to what I said about the sweep in the corners, exposing some light, I think that's what she allows us to do. To put the narrative back on. When we as Democrats focus on people of color and diversity, it is because we want to do it from a sense of strength, from a sense that this offers so much perspective. Because the identity of a South Asian black woman is powerful, but not because we're the worst and she survived this system of oppression. Even though I'm not arguing that we don't have systemic oppression. Of course, we do. But you have to pair that with a narrative for Americans that is empowering and focused on the future.  

[00:57:16] Because the truth is, Donald Trump is not the only party. The Republican Party is not the only party that spent a lot of time talking about the past. And I just think Americans need a narrative that acknowledges that and says, we have a lot of work to do, and we've made mistakes and then says, and this is the path forward. And I just think she is uniquely qualified to do that. Uniquely qualified. Because I think Barack Obama, because of the timing, we thought electing him was all we needed to do to address the past. We weren't really ready, I think, until 2020. And even then, it was hard to say, what happened? What are we facing? What are we dealing with? What's the suffering? I mean, we have a horrific police shooting right now of a black woman, Sonya Massey. That is just heartbreaking. It's horrific. And it's not like any of us think that racism is fixed and we've done all the work and we're just ready to move forward. I don't think really anybody thinks-- it's a big country. I'm sure some people think that.  

[00:58:27] But the way that she navigates that and the way it seems to have opened up a narrative to say we're just going to operate from places of strength and that's going to look different from different populations. And that's okay, because we all bring something to the table and that's what makes it strong, and that's what makes us able to solve our challenges, and that's what makes us able to see different solutions from different angles. And I just think she does that so well. And I hope that the party can continue down that path. I think the organizing calls on zoom are exciting. But there's been a little bubbling up, I think, because if you're not careful, saying it's a white woman call to a swing voter with low information could sound weird. I don't want that.  

[00:59:17] It's not because I think anything that happened on the call is terrible. I think the excitement but cordoning them off in that way, I think, could look weird to low information voters. And so, I'm not saying don't do them. I'm just saying we have to think about that. We have to keep our eye on that. We have to remember that we're not going to create this. We're not going to revisit. We're not going back. That's the chant that we all felt so good about. We're not going back. We're not forgetting the past. We're acknowledging our mistakes. We're acknowledging that we have huge systemic challenges in front of us. But Americans want elections about the future. Kamala Harris is a candidate about the future, about how we're going to move forward together.  

Beth [01:00:00] And I think she's probably very motivated. I mean, I don't know her. I don't know how she feels about this. If I were her, I would be very motivated. Every time a Republican calls me a DEI pick. To go back a little, I do think it was a misstep by the Biden campaign to announce that they were only vetting black women for VP. I mean, that was unfair to the women in that process. And I think it's unfair to her now, and it's going to continue to show up. And so, if I were her, I would be very motivated to demonstrate that, actually, I was the best candidate for this job, putting everything demographically about me aside. And I'm the best person to be the next president, putting everything demographically about me aside. Thank goodness we're at a place where we can look at all the people who could be the best presidents, instead of having it only be about white men. But it should still be the best person. And I'm that best person. And I think that's her posture always.  

[01:00:53] I wanted to say one thing about the border czar situation, and then we've got to talk about the vice president. I know people are, like, get to the vice president. I think the border can be a strength for her if she will come out and explain it to people? Because she sat in a meeting early in the Biden administration and said to everyone-- these are my words, not hers. We can't solve this through more police at the border. We have to address why people are coming here from countries that are close to us. We have to address our geography. What you and I have said every time we've talked about immigration. People are going to come here if we don't figure out how to make their countries places that they can live. 

And that's the angle she's been working on this. And it takes a long time to work that angle, but you're starting to see it in the numbers that it is bearing fruit. Her specific work on this has not been about building walls and razor fences and separating families and all the draconian things where we keep trying to get closer and closer to basically the Tower of London on our southern border. She said from the beginning, that will not do it. I have an idea for what will do it. Let's go into these countries. Let's get more American investment. Let's make this a win-win. Let's have people in the U.S. make money in partnership with people in Central America. I think she has a great story to tell about that. She just has to get out and tell it.  

[01:02:17] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [01:02:26] Well, to the VP, we're recording on Monday, July 29th, and she's the picked one. So, I think our easiest and best take, Beth, is let's just keep the veepstakes going, because I think it's great. I think everybody going on cable news and giving it to JD Vance is endlessly entertaining. I love the articulation of democratic values coming from all these white guys. Great. Let's just keep it going. I don't think she should pick any time soon. Let's take it to the convention. Don't bother me a bit.  

Beth [01:02:51] I agree with that. The one thing I'd like to add is that it doesn't have to be a straight white guy. I think the memes about that have been funny too. All of the wine parallels to the crispy whites or whatever that she's looking at. But to me, she could pick Gretchen Whitmer. She could pick Pete Buttigieg who's white, but not straight. She could pick Raphael Warnock. I don't care who she picks demographically. I think the idea that it has to be a midwestern white male governor who is straight and married and with children and has a white fence and a dog like, I think that's really silly. And I think that, again, looks like it's in that sort of fearful posture. And I think she should pick whoever she wants to pick. Who she thinks can do the job and be a good partner to her, and who could step in if anything happened to her. That's it. I just want her to make that choice courageously.  

Sarah [01:03:43] Yeah, it's so frustrating to me because I feel like the people who organize these calls are the same people who say it has to be a straight white guy. And that's why the Republicans are so capable of turning this attack on us. Because it does sound like we both hate racism and also think it will never end. And I think it's really so impossibly hard to talk about this because you also don't want-- I don't want to be a white woman lecturing people of color about their cynicism towards the system. No one needs that, hears that, and that's definitely bullshit. And that's not what I'm saying. I think it's deserved. I both at the same time want us to make more blatantly political calculations, because it's politics and that's what you should do. And also, at the same time, acknowledge that politics is about the future. And sometimes you have to take that power, and sometimes you have to say, this is the world we want, not just the world we live in. And I think voters of color understand that. I think that that's how we elected Barack Hussein Obama twice. It's both things.  

[01:05:02] But, I mean, that's what's so hard, is that when you talk about electoral politics or when you just talk about America generally, you got to hold a lot of things at once. And that's really hard to do in a horse race. But one of the most positive things I feel that is coming out of this candidacy, that's coming out of the veepstakes, is this sense that particularly as Democrats, we can be patriotic again? Like, you could hope scroll. That you can be proud. And one of my friends in the group text sent this study from this guy that was like, Democrats have ceded patriotism to Republicans. And not only is that a losing political strategy, it's not right. And I said, well, not me, because I have to argue with my 15-year-old about America all the time. So, I got all my arguments, National parks, Americans Disability Act at the ready.  

[01:05:49] I love this country and I am proud to be an American. I am particularly proud to be an American as I watch Kamala Harris bound down those airplane steps, or speak to the ability for a woman to control her own body, or to hear Governor Waltz talk about feeding children at school, or hear Andy Beshear talk about the people of Appalachia and what they give in to the United States and what they deserve in return. Like, those things make me enormously proud. And I don't have to ignore racism or sexism or any of that to hold that pride. I just don't. And I think the more that we can articulate that, to say we can be proud of this country and acknowledge that it's not a perfect country is really, really important. And you can feel that people want that and need that. They don't want to just fight against something. They don't want to just hate something. They want to believe in something. And there is plenty of things to believe in in America, in particular that we right now have Kamala Harris as the Democratic nominee.  

Beth [01:06:55] When I hear people say America isn't ready, it's probably not. Like 100% of America is never going to be ready for anything.  

Sarah [01:07:03] Like having kids. You're never ready. That's okay.  

Beth [01:07:06] Exactly. That's exactly what I was going to say actually. You're not ever really ready to get married. You're not really ready to have kids. You're not really ready to, like, update your software platform. Like, on a whole range of issues we're never ready until we just do it. And then some people will come along and some people will backlash. And that's just always going to be. And that's why I want her to make this choice however she makes it. And I think there is evidence that Americans are ready for a lot more than anybody thinks. We have gay governors, men and women serving. We have more diversity in the US Congress than we've had before. I just don't want to reduce each other this way.  

[01:07:46] I'm going to be really honest in a way that will upset people. I'm not going to hop on a call for white women only. If that makes you excited, if you love those speakers and you love that energy and you're looking for a way to channel what you want to do to help be part of this effort and that was for you, great. I have no judgment whatsoever. That's not for me. It's just not where I am. I'm looking for ways to be involved, too. That's not going to be my path, because that does feel less forward looking than where I want to be right now. I may be wrong about that. Again, not trying to harsh anyone's buzz. It's just that's not how I am looking at this race and thinking about where I might fit into it and what I might do here to bring about the greatest result that I hope for in my heart.  

Sarah [01:08:32] Because I think the way you win is you say, I need you here as an American. And I think as long as we put forth that identity first to people, like, really what matters the most about you is that you're a white woman, not that you're an American, it's not going to win over people. It's like I don't want to just talk about it in this pragmatic political calculus in that way, because it's what we talk about all the time. There are activists and then there are non-activists, right? There are people in the system. There are people outside the system. And I'm thrilled that the activist class is on board.  

The commentary on Twitter where people try to come at her for not being progressive enough on something and how they kind of get pretty quickly shut down has been life giving to me because I'm not looking for a purity test right now. Nobody wants that. That's not a way you win. Haven't we learned that enough over and over and over again that sucks. And it just zaps the life out of everybody, and it breaks people into factions. And it doesn't give people something to believe in. It just gives them something to fight about. And I don't want to do that anymore. That's what we talked about after the assassination attempt. I really do want to put this to rest. I want politics to be about ideas again, not identities. I want it to be about ideas.  

Beth [01:09:54] And specifically, the office of the president has to be the president for everyone. It has to be a very pragmatic, big picture kind of role. One of the reasons that I think Governor Bashir's name is surfacing in the VP process despite him being the governor of a state that you can write off in the Electoral College, is that he's good at making room for people. A lot of folks have cited that he vetoed anti-trans legislation in Kentucky. And what he has done on that is say that legislation is mean. And that's it. He isn't insisting that you feel any particular way about all of the issues that surround health care for transgender people or bathrooms or anything. He's just saying, don't be mean. And you can have a range of views or concerns or discomfort or awkwardness, whatever, and hear the truth in that and be on board with him. And to me, that's what elections are about, especially big national race. It's one person for the whole country. You got to make as much room to fit under that umbrella as you can.  

[01:11:07] Now, a lot of people have asked me in DMs about the idea of a unity ticket. Should Kamala Harris appoint a Republican as the vice president? Because I'm a good target for a question like that, right? And my answer has been no, because I think that is unrealistic about the reality that a president has to look at the vice president and say, if something happens to me, I want you to step into this role, and I want us to be on the same page about our agenda and our policies and our approaches to these things. So, I think that that's unrealistic. I don't think a unity cabinet is unrealistic. I would love to see a huge variety of views expressed in the cabinet.  

[01:11:45] I think the cabinet should be the place where the president says, we've got to govern for everybody. So how can we have someone who's a lot more progressive than I am here and someone who's a lot more conservative than I am here? I think that would be fantastic, and I hope that she'll consider something like that. But I'm not invested in the idea of a Republican or a former Republican or a never Trumper as the vice president, because I just think that denies the central task of a vice president, which is to be ready to step in for the president if they need to.  

Sarah [01:12:18] I think to these next steps as we all grapple with the VP pick and these organizing calls even, I just hope it becomes an organizing call for pro-choice voters, or an organizing call for swing state voters who want to get out and knock doors. I hope we can pivot, because I do think there was a sense that in the very early days of Joe Biden dropping out and even to those conversations when people would call for him to drop out and people would say it's racist, there was some hesitation at least as reflected in polling in the black community around Kamala Harris. And so, I think those first few calls, like black women for Harris and black men for Harris, was the sense that we're not a monolith. We are on board for her-- or some of us are on board for her. And this sort of encouraging, empowering situation. But I just don't want us to keep following that down. And I hope the VP pick-- because this will be her first decision making that Americans really get to witness.  

[01:13:26] The good news is I don't think that she can make a bad pick. I think that we have such a deep, great bench. But I hope that when we have a ticket of like a combination of people and we see her decision making, that then the organizing calls-- because I think that is a powerful tool. The zoom where everybody can come together and see speakers and you don't have to get-- as a person used to do campaign events, well, this is great. She can start coming on the calls. He or she can start coming on the calls- the VP pick. We can start seeing this as a really powerful fundraising tool, a way to get volunteers. So that's what's so encouraging right now about everything, is just the flow of small dollar donors, the flow of first-time donors, the massive sign up of volunteers. That's so exciting.  

[01:14:11] And I hope the campaign can pivot and channel that into issues people care about. That we can start getting calls for universal childcare. That people who care about that, how do we organize around that? How do we organize around other issues that are important to Americans? I think that would be such a positive path for that to take, because I don't want it to just be calls where there are just white women. I want to be on calls with men. I want to be on zoom calls with people of color. That's the power that a truly diverse Democratic Party offers. Is not to say that we're all in our silos, but that we come together and we move forward in a way that really reflects the beauty and diversity and power of the American populous.  

Beth [01:14:58] Yeah, and I'm really interested in talking to people who aren't Democrats because that's really important in this election. It's important for the Democratic Party to be united. That's looking good. It is really important for the uncomfortable with Trump contingency to be on board here. And so, thinking about how do I use my voice to help invite people to coalesce around her who are uncomfortable with it, I think matters a lot. Okay. To just wrap up because it's been a very expansive conversation, but I know people are going to hear this. If you were making your best pitch to her today for who she should pick, give it to us real quick. Your elevator pitch for your VP choice.  

Sarah [01:15:38] Well, I think what's so hard about this is that I don't know Kamala Harris. And my advice to her would be pick who you will work well with.  

Beth [01:15:45] Same. Agreed.  

Sarah [01:15:47] Because you were the vice president, you know what the job is like. I would imagine that you have some very strong opinions on the type of personality who would do it well. And so, to me, what I would tell her is not who to pick but how to pick. Don't just do a political calculus. Nate Silver's did a really great write up. You get maybe point four in the state of the person you pick. Maybe that could turn the tide in Pennsylvania because it's probably going to be close. Actually, I say that, but I'm tired of that narrative because I actually think it's not going to be close, but whatever. Just pick who you think you will work well with, who you have a good relationship with, who you think your personality is well suited to, and theirs to you. I think that is really what I hope that she's doing, especially as a vice president. She knows. She gets it. This is a tough gig. And so, I hope she's not just making a political calculus, but that she's making a personal calculus as well. What about you?  

Beth [01:16:45] I was with Governor Shapiro for a long time, and I still would be thrilled because I think he's excellent. I think he's politically talented. I think he's pragmatic. I think his record has been good. I think his polling is great. He also seems to calibrate his speech off the cuff to that posture that is not fearful. It's not hyperbolic. It's just straightforward. I think constantly about how after the assassination, when he gave his press conference, he said about the gentleman who was killed in his state that he asked his wife for permission to talk about it. And that to me is the symbol of a message that we need more and more often, which is that things can be both decent and good and politically smart. I think so often we talk about politics as though you have to do what's politically savvy or what's good. And to me he shows often that they are one and the same. And so, I really like that.  

Sarah [01:17:40] But he's not your pick.  

Beth [01:17:42] No.  

Sarah [01:17:42] You're making a play for him, but he's not your pick.  

Beth [01:17:44] I'm making a play for him, so I would be thrilled if it were him. But I come back to Secretary Buttigieg because he is so practiced now at going to places, Fox News, town halls anywhere, America. Coming from Indiana, I think he is the person who expertly, respectfully expands that tent; who says to everyone, you have a place here. We don't have to agree on everything, but you have a place here. And look at how small the tent is. Look at what you have to believe to be with Donald Trump. I think he's so good at that and that's what this election needs more than anything else.  

Sarah [01:18:25] I'll make a case for Governor Beshear since we are Kentuckians (and also selfishly because my friend is lieutenant governor and I'd love to see her be governor) that I think for the low information vibe voter, they see California and Kentucky and they go, okay, that sounds good. That sounds balanced to me. That sounds like he gets it, that he's from a deeply red state, that he was elected twice, that they like him there, that he was good on natural disasters. And it just checked some boxes and balances maybe any concerns they have about her being too liberal or too progressive, which I don't really think she is, but whatever. Just on the pure vibes, there is something I think that just clicks for people when they go California and Kentucky.  

Beth [01:19:10] I think that would be great also. I mean, I have a ton of respect for Governor Beshear.  

Sarah [01:19:14] We don't have bad choices here, there's just really no bad choices.  

Beth [01:19:16] Yeah, no bad choices. Selfishly, if it's not Governor Beshear, I hope that all this attention on him enables him to become our next senator from Kentucky. I think that would be excellent.  

Sarah [01:19:25] That'd be exciting.  

Beth [01:19:26] Okay, we usually end our show talking about what's in our minds Outside of Politics, but we are making an episode today that we promised our teams we wouldn't. We had a pre-recorded episode. And so, they're going to have to work on this and scramble. And we are at an hour and 23 minutes as I bring these words to you. So, we are going to talk a lot about our travel on our next episode together next Tuesday. Between now and then, we'll have The Nuanced Life, but next Tuesday we'll get back together and bring you a lot.  

Sarah [01:19:50] The Nuanced Life is nothing but Outside of Politics. You have a whole episode on Friday, guys. Don't worry.  

Beth [01:19:54] That's right. Thank you so much for being with us here today. That is our tentative plan. We will hold it loosely. We will adjust as needed based on what the universe delivers to us. Thank you again for giving us your time and attention and all your thoughts after the episode. Everybody, have the best week available to you.  

[01:20:09] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family.  

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.