The Nuanced Life: The Nuanced Journey of Early Parenthood
When we put out the call for questions for this revival of The Nuanced Life, we were flooded with questions about parenthood, particularly early parenthood. We are devoting this full episode to talking about the magical and mysterious and maddening early stages of parenthood.
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TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:09] You're listening to The Nuanced Life, a Pantsuit Politics Production.
[00:00:13] Music Interlude.
Sarah [00:00:29] Hello, we are so glad you're joining us today for The Nuanced Life. We have revived a podcast we hosted several years ago, where we commemorated pieces of our listeners lives, where we celebrated, where we talked about what we're working through, where we just really, really found some expansive space for what we think about Outside Politics. We're going to do more of that today and we're going to talk about early parenthood, which was my favorite, Beth. So, I'm more than happy to revisit it.
Beth [00:01:03] Well, we will have some tension in this episode then because I struggled during early parenthood. But before we get to that, we want to tell you about what's going on for our premium listeners. Those of you who help fund all of the work that we do here, make it possible for us to have two free episodes of the podcast in the feed every week, all year. We make lots of other content for all of you, and if you have wondered about joining us there and getting Good Morning and More to Say and the book clubs and live events, July is a great time for you to just come in and explore this enormous library that we've created.
[00:01:44] We have so much work there that we are so proud of. There is such an active community there of people who talk with us about our episodes. Those discussions are always lively. It is not just an amen section. There is a lot of back and forth and contribution to what we've discussed, so we would love for you to join us there in July, and then we'll be back to our regular work in August. So, we'll put all the information for both Patreon and Apple Podcast subscriptions in the notes, and we'd love for you to become part of that community.
Sarah [00:02:19] Next up, we're going to talk about early parenthood. Of course, we are going to talk about pregnancy and birth and breastfeeding. These are intense topics. These are emotional topics depending on where you are in your journey, or if you've chosen not to have kids, or if you're struggling with infertility. And so, we just wanted to acknowledge that, hold space for that and give you a heads up that that's what this conversation is going to entail.
[00:02:40] Music Interlude.
[00:02:50] So, we heard from Hally [sp] and Karen. Hally is pregnant with her first child after being a Pantsuit Politics listener, calling us the big sister voices in most of her 20s.
Beth [00:03:02] I love that.
Sarah [00:03:03] And she reached out to ask us for our advice to help navigate this moment. We also have Karen who is (wait for it) pregnant with twins. That's her second and third. But even like saying it like that--
Beth [00:03:17] For sure.
Sarah [00:03:18] Getting your second and third at the same time. Like, I'll just [inaudible] take a little minute with that. Okay. And she's thinking about that transition, adding another family, dealing with a toddler at the same time, and commemorating this big transition in her life, and wanted our feedback on how that will happen, how that will feel. I didn't get my second and third at the same time, but I can speak to a little bit of that. And so, we thought we would just take a little time to talk about this transformative period in both of our lives and what we learned from it.
Beth [00:03:55] One sentence of Karen's message that really stuck out to me is, how will my body handle this process? Because I think that whether you're expecting for the first time or you are pregnant with twins, I can imagine having a real what's going on in my body moment. And I really struggled with that. Being pregnant was a challenge for me, and it was physically challenging because I was sick the whole time. I tell people I did not glow. I was green the whole time. It was very, very difficult. And it was difficult and still pretty healthy. I didn't have diagnosable issues. It was just hard. On a different level though, it was weird and I think that I got really stuck in how weird it felt to me to be a host for another form of life. And I love that Karen included that. Like, that part of what's on her mind right now is just how her body will handle twins. And I can imagine for Hally just thinking through, like, how will my body handle a pregnancy? It's an important part of the process that sometimes we sort of scoot past.
Sarah [00:05:06] Yeah, I felt like the first time my body was like, I got this girl. You are 28. I'm with you. I've got it. I bounced back. I felt fine. I was sick as a dog the first trimester with Griffin. Make no mistake, I watched TV for like three months. That's how I got through with Amos and Griffin just sort of raised himself by the light of the television. But the first time I kind of felt like I bounced back. And I had Amos and I just felt like my body was like, you know what, too much too soon. I'm out. I'm not going back to the way I was. Like, now this is a new body for you. And so, I can't tell Karen because I definitely haven't had twins. And I felt like every pregnancy was different. And I think if I'd had those three pregnancies at different ages, it would have been even more different. Like, it's just such a wild combo of factors like what your body's been through up to that point. How old you are, how the pregnancy goes, how the birth goes. But I've I loved being pregnant. I didn't like the morning sickness. Obviously not a fan, not my favorite.
[00:06:05] But once that sort of passed, I really enjoyed being pregnant. I enjoyed feeling the baby and I'd grown up with my mother telling me that. Like, I didn't like it. I didn't like sharing my body. But I did not have that sort of psychological struggle with it. I loved it. I was excited to give birth. I had very positive experiences giving birth, especially the first time with Griffin. And so, it felt like I was put in touch with my body. It's the closest I've gotten to understanding athletes, to be honest. Because I was not an athlete. I ran a little bit. I exercised a little bit before I got pregnant, but it wasn't like this big part of my identity. And I never understood that desire to sort of, like, push your body and see what it could do until I gave birth. And then I was like, okay, I get it. I get this connection with your body and that feeling like what is my body capable? I don't really know. Some of this aspect of what I can do is controllable by me. Some of it isn't. Like, I got it. I got athletes and that connection to the physicality of your body, probably for the first time through being pregnant and giving birth.
Beth [00:07:11] I felt totally differently about giving birth than being pregnant. I thought giving birth was a very interesting experience and a very empowering experience and a very raw experience. It's probably the most animalistic I've ever felt, in a good way. I mean all of that in a good way. I hope the takeaway here when we talk about how do we navigate parenthood with grace, nuance and joy, is that there's room for whatever it is that you're dealing with. If you love being pregnant, good for you. You're not alone. If you find it to be the most bizarre, uncomfortable, miserable time of your life, you are also not alone. And that is okay. And don't feel any guilt about how you experienced this. It is an enormous earthquake psychologically and physically. And however you get through that, someone else has journeyed that path and will journey it again and is journeying it at the same time that you are. Because how we handle this is just made up of a million pieces, most of which we do not have much control over.
Sarah [00:08:14] Well, you know what's so interesting to me, is as I look back on it, there were so many aspects of early parenthood that I was consumed with. I'm going to talk about breastfeeding in just a minute or sleep or first solid foods or diapers, all this stuff that felt super high stakes, super impactful. And I look back on it and think it didn't matter. Like it didn't really matter. I don't think about it anymore. It didn't transform how I feel about myself. But I do look back at pregnancy and birth as hugely impactful on how I think about myself. I use sort of-- not the lessons, but the embodied sensations from pregnancy and birth a lot in my life. I couldn't tell you how many times I've said like, “Oh, okay, so it's like giving birth.” Giving birth and sorority rush. I don't know what to tell y'all. I just use the lessons from those a lot. They come up more than I thought they would, is what I'm trying to tell you.
[00:09:10] But there is a sense of a different perspective on physical sensation and pain and even just muscles and how muscles works. There was just a lot of that that I still carry with me, that I put a lot of focus on and I still think about it a lot, if that makes sense. Versus some of the other stuff when they were littles that I feel like I spent-- how many times did I Google my child's age and sleep regression? A million. I googled it a million times because it really doesn't matter what age you put in there. Google will offer up a suggestion sleep regression to that age. It will do it. It will do it for you. Then I'll look back I'm like, it wasn't that-- you should have just gone to bed instead of googling it and trying to figure out if there was some secrets, super special answer or a solution to what you were struggling with.
Beth [00:10:03] Well, I think that's the thing. When you said it didn't matter, I kind of wanted to unpack that because I can hear people saying, but I'm working so hard. It does matter. Of course, it matters. It matters to your experience. It matters to theirs. But I think that the truth of it down the road that you find, is it would have been okay however it had gone. We would have found our way through it. Everyone is more resilient than it feels in the first few years.
Sarah [00:10:33] Well, I think that it's like this trick of early parenthood and babies and toddlers because, I mean, they can't talk. You think it's easier when they start talking, guys, and they can explain themselves? In my experience, that has not been the case. Them talking and expressing their own opinions is an entire new level of complexity to whatever challenges you are facing as a parent. And so, I think there's also-- which I loved. I'm a sherpa. So, there's all this stuff in early parenting, whatever you're talking about birth, breastfeeding, sleep, eating, that's like there's a million products. It's like a consumer paradise. I think we get into this space talking about early parenthood where we think it's all about us or our friends or outside influences, but a huge one of those outside influences is that it's a massive industry. And good Lord, I was doing this before Instagram.
[00:11:27] What would have happened if I'd had all these parenting influencers? You guys, I can't even think about it because I was consumed with finding the right product and hacking the solution. You know what I'm saying? Because it felt like it was available; whereas, it doesn't feel like that with teenagers. It doesn't feel like there's like a right product I can buy that's going to solve this issue for me. But it certainly felt like that with babies and toddlers. Like, you were going to find the right car seat cover or the right toy. You'd go to a friend's house and they would play for hours with the toy and you're like, "I'm going to get that toy. It's going to be great. They're going to entertain themselves." You bring it home, they never play with the toy. You know that kind of thing? It was always this product angle that I felt, like, tilted everything slightly on its head.
Beth [00:12:09] I think that's why we Google all the time looking for sleep regression because it's validating. It's like I'm not doing something wrong. It's normal for them to be awake right now. And so, it's fine. There's nothing wrong with googling and looking for sleep regression, because sometimes you just need affirmation that like, no, this is just hard. This is just really hard. And if it helps you to put some kind of label around what's going on, like, this is the seven-and-a-half-week phase, fine. Good. You got to use whatever tools you have to call your way through that time when nobody's getting enough rest.
Sarah [00:12:49] And it's like a beginning. So, it always feels like you could right the ship. Whereas, now I look back and you guys I have so many regrets as a parent where I think I shouldn't have yelled then, I shouldn't have made that call, I should have put them in school. All these things. And it's too late. Like, I did it. I just have to live with that regret. But when they're a baby, you're always like, well, I can still-- when things are so fresh and new, it's not too late, I can right this ship. And so, the stakes feel so high because it feels like you're setting the path, and you can't change tactics.
[00:13:27] I've told this story a million times on the podcast where I was breastfeeding and I went to my friend's house who I knew was a big breastfeed her and she had formula. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's this? And she was like, for the babysitter. Like, of course you can use both. And it blew my mind, you guys. Why did it blow my mind that I could do both? Who told me I had to pick? But you just get in your head. Like, if I'm a cloth diaper person, I have to be a cloth diaper person. If I'm a sleep training person, they can never get in the bed with me. It feels like you're deciding. It's like the flow chart is being determined with everything you do in early parenthood in this way that it's like the pressure is so intense.
Beth [00:14:05] It blew my mind when you told me that when I was 34 years old with my second child. I mean, it does feel like you have kind of a menu of ways to be a mom for your baby and you have to choose on that menu-- or even a dad. I think that you get really locked in. We use this sleep method. Or we do this thing. And then it's like, well, if I deviate from that then I'm messing up. I think that's the thing I wish I could go back and say to my pregnant self. First of all, you are going to mess up 60,000 times a day. You just are. Because there's not a right way, and if there were a right way it would require a level of super humanness that you don't have. So, you are just going to mess up, be cool about that. And then secondly, most of the path you're setting-- and I'm curious if you think this, Sarah. Because I was trying to think, is there a path that you're setting in those early days? And I do think there's one way in which maybe you are.
[00:15:07] Music Interlude.
[00:15:16] I think in those early days, the most expansive long-term path that you're setting is the place where you can also find some joy, even when it's really hard. And that is just attuning yourself to your kid, just the way that you start to pay attention, the way that you understand communication before they have words. When you start to watch your baby and take cues from teeny tiny movements or sounds, for me, it felt like I opened a new section of my brain. Like, almost somebody took the ropes down and they were, like, this area is now online. And that area just keeps developing and keeps developing as you parent.
Sarah [00:16:07] I think there are a lot of areas in which I set the path, both in ways I am happy with, in ways I regret. With breastfeeding and formula feeding, I look back on that time because we did have this really great message from Jessica, who has been exclusively pumping for seven months. She's so proud of herself, and I really liked how she said this. She said, "And because how to feed a baby is such a thing, I'm not saying I didn't have moments where I anguished over whether I should just switch to formula. We fortified some breast milk bottle with formula. Maybe we'll have to go wholly to formula if something changes in my body. I'm so glad that formula is an option. Breastfeeding is solely my goal and the choice I made, and I'm really glad I've gotten over halfway to my chosen goal. Celebrating the dedication and work and hours that I poured into this task, not the task itself." Because there's a part of me that's, like, I want to sit down and go, hey guys, fed baby is best baby. Everybody chill.
[00:16:58] But then also because it holds such weight. There's a part of me that says, oh, it's a big deal, but not for the reasons we think it is. Not because you're determining your child's health for the rest of their life, because there's a million other inputs that will determine their bodies and how they function or whatever. But because it becomes this stand in, it becomes this manifestation for how we feel about ourselves, our expectations about motherhood, and how that was going to look for us. And so, there's a part of me that's like, it's a big deal. But it's just a big deal because if you can develop the skills to sort of navigate this and to hold both, hold expectations, set a goal, I think that's admirable. Because I think it can easily become like just don't set goals, don't worry about anything, don't be hard on yourself in a way that's not exactly great either.
[00:17:50] So I think the way Jessica talks about it, like, I set this goal for myself, and I'm happy that I've gotten halfway there. So, I think with breastfeeding and with birth, being able to navigate, like, I do have expectations, what are they? Do I have goals? Why? How will I handle it if I reach them? How will I handle it if I don't? Just being able to see all those pieces, if you can see those with birth and breastfeeding, that's a path you've set a good one for. You know what I'm saying? If you can kind of see the Matrix with those two big moments and those two big decision points and how so much comes in and is piled on top of that, and if you can do while sleep deprived, well, then you should join the Avengers. You know what I mean? Because it's not that the decisions themselves predict so much, but it's if you can integrate your decision and see the sort of pressures that come, then I think you have set a path that can be more life giving, more joyful, more delightful as you continue your parenting journey.
Beth [00:18:54] None of that is easy. I struggle when we talk about breastfeeding because I always have in my mind someone who I love very dearly, and I'm very close to you, who has felt an enormous amount of grief over being physically incapable of breastfeeding. Just an enormous amount of grief. And I think all the time what would ease that experience? And I can think of a number of things in terms of how we talk about this and the pressure that surrounds it. And I think if we fixed everything best we could, that still might exist.
Sarah [00:19:33] Yeah.
Beth [00:19:34] And I think that's true about a lot of parts of parenting. It is a heartbreaking process. It strips you all the way down over and over and over again. Even if you have everything kind of swimming in your favor, it is a really raw thing. Even as your kids get to their third-grade bliss, where they can go take a shower on their own and they still love you and are adorable and will still cuddle with you-- there are some wonderful, wonderful moments and there's the asterisks of, like, that's not true for every third grader. It is a hard and individualized thing, even as it is something that bonds us all together because there's so much commonality.
Sarah [00:20:19] And I think there are some just concrete things that I did when they were little that I am happy I did. I am happy that we sleep trained. I'm happy that my kids sleep in their own bed. Not for everybody, but it is for me. I'm an only child, guys. I have a wallerin' limit. Do you use that word waller when they're just on you?
Beth [00:20:38] Yes.
Sarah [00:20:39] And I have a limit, and mine is lower than other people's. I'm just going to be honest with you. And so, I have to have time. And we set that sort of up early in our house. I'm happy with the choices we've made around meal time and food. None of my kids have struggled with sensory issues. My husband is an excellent cook. So, we've made some choices around, like, this is the meal. And my kids are adventurous eaters, which makes travel a lot of fun. And I kind of look back at how we handled it, and it was such a freaking slog at the time. I think my parents were the most traumatized at family dinner. They still talk about, "Remember at family dinner when they were little, and it was always one bite; just try this one bite over and over and over again." But I'm glad we did that. I'm glad that we have kids that will eat all kinds of food.
[00:21:29] And I think about sleep, I think about food. And I do think to a certain extent about discipline. That's probably where I have the most regrets. I think I've struggled mightily with the difference between discipline and control. I think I've struggled with anger with my kids. I say early parenthood was a delight, but y'all know I don't like toddlers. So, what am I even talking about? I'm talking out both sides of my mouth there. I struggled so much with toddlers and reasonable expectations for their age, and feeling frustrated, and feeling disrespected, which is such a silly thing to feel from a baby or a toddler. And I can see that now, but at the time that's probably the area I have the most regrets around. Looking back at when they were little, I think I spent a lot of time feeling frustrated. Whereas, if I had like, I don't know, Doctor Becky earlier in my parenting journey, I might not have felt that so often.
Beth [00:22:21] I think that's right, because you will feel disrespected by a baby or a toddler. It is so silly, but you will feel it with a lot of intensity. And I think some of it is because in that period you are laying everything out for them every single day and nobody gives you gold stars for it.
Sarah [00:22:40] No. The two-year-olds are very unappreciative as a demographic. That's what I found in my parenting journey.
Beth [00:22:46] Well, yes. And even people in your life who you would love to be constantly cheering you on, you're doing a great job, a lot of them just don't for a huge variety of reasons. Sometimes our parents feel judged by the choices they watch us making as we parent our kids, and so they don't have it in them to say, "You're really doing a great job." Same thing with our friends, right? If they see you doing something different than they are, then it just kind of sets you down a psychological path. I don't know why it's so hard for us to be really supportive and encouraging of each other, but it can be.
Sarah [00:23:23] I think one of the hardest things in early parenthood that does not get talked about enough, is when you and your friends are making different choices. It is excruciating. And it's because the stakes feel high and are high, and we put so much effort into it. And, look, this is not just about early parenthood, parenthood or just being a human. I think about all the time how badly we all just want someone to say, "You're doing a really good job. Your choices are correct." I don't know if it's because we're trained when we get grades for 13 years at the bare minimum, I don't know. But it does feel like all the time if someone is not saying, "You're trying so hard and you're doing such a good job," that what we hear is, "I can't believe you're doing it that way. Why are you doing it that way?" It feels like that constantly in early parenthood.
[00:24:15] I feel like it's the zenith of that feeling of I'm trying so hard and I'm tired and I just want to wake up every morning and someone to hold my face and go, "You're doing such a good job." And it took me so long. My oldest child, you guys, is 15 and just recently a friend of mine who maybe she could say it so clearly because she doesn't have children said-- I was like beating myself up about something. She said, "What are you talking about? You love your kids unconditionally and they know that. That's the whole ballgame." And I wept. I wept because I was like, oh my God, she's right. Why don't I think about that more? I'm beating myself up constantly since they were babies about everything. Well, sometimes it was breastfeeding; now it's tech usage, whatever. But I'm missing the big picture here, which is I love my kids and they know I love them and that's what matters.
[00:25:01] Music Interlude.
Beth [00:25:12] I think that there's just a design flaw with humans, where so many of us feel like if we give a compliment, it cost us something. That if we say to somebody else, you're doing great on this, or even if they are led to believe that they're doing well, it must mean that we have a shortcoming.
Sarah [00:25:29] Yes.
Beth [00:25:30] And so, certainly I would encourage all of us, me too, to do a better job telling people with young kids, "Hey, look at you. You are thriving in this. And I know it is so hard and I want you to know it gets easier." There's also a strong current that tells you that you're supposed to just tell people it's hard in a different way at every stage. It's all hard. It's just hard in a different way. And there is truth in that, but man, that is not comforting to people who are not sleeping and dealing with the physical experience of being a new parent and just getting oriented to being a new parent. I think it is easier down the road because at least you have been a parent before. You're not new at absolutely every single piece of it, even where it gets excruciating. And it does. And it gets excruciating for people in ways that I have not experienced yet and may never experience. So, I'm not trying to say that everybody's journey is similar or to make light of anyone's experience. But man, it frustrates me that the constant message to new parents is like, well, actually, you guys don't even know yet. Because it is an intense time.
Sarah [00:26:47] So our message to new parents is not you don't even know yet. It's certainly not offering you any specific advice because we don't know you and your family, and it's different for every child and every parent. But it is, as much as we can across the air, holding your faces in our hands and saying, you are doing the best you can and you are doing a great job. Twins, first born, I don't care, you're killing it. And that's why we really, really wanted to end with this beautiful wisdom from Hannah, who commemorated with us on The Nuanced Life years ago, when she completed her daughter's kindergarten individual education plan and successfully advocated for her to be included in general education.
[00:27:34] And now, she says, four years later, "I have realized while that was important, nothing is, sadly, that black and white. Over many meetings, repeating kindergarten, switching schools, and lots of successes and failures, I have realized that there is no done to be had in this process, but only the celebration that at this moment the plan is working. She is learning, she has friends and is valued at her school for being who she is." There is no done to be had in this process. Oh, Hannah, what a gift. What a gift that sentence is to parents and during their parenting journey.
Beth [00:28:13] And I would take that right back to Hally and say, if you want to have grace, nuance and joy in your parenthood, I think Hannah sets the model. Where you just say, for today, where do I see-- whatever your word is-- God, beauty, truth, the reflection of the love that I'm putting into this for today. Where do I see those things, and how do I just allow this to continue to be a creative process where tomorrow something might have to change for me to keep sustaining and growing and building on that beauty, truth, love, etc.
Sarah [00:28:47] Yeah, because I know we spend a lot of time talking about parenting, but I love it. I love being a parent. I love being a mom. It has been such a gift in my life. It has made me who I am. And so, I'm excited for all of you entering this journey. I always love to learn and listen to everyone in our community further along in that journey. I love that this revival of The Nuanced Life has given us a chance to talk about that just a little bit, just a little bit today with all of you. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday with another episode of Pantsuit Politics. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.
[00:29:20] Music Interlude.
Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.
Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.
Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.
Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.
Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family.
Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.