Vice President Harris Steps Up and Governor Shapiro Gets Sh*t Done

We’re delighted to be joined by Governor Josh Shapiro today. Governor Shapiro is focused on practical, impactful work in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and we so enjoyed chatting with him about how and why that work matters.

Sarah and Beth also weigh in from their vacations about President Biden’s decision to step down and the path for Vice President Harris to accept the nomination.

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] Thank you so much for joining us today for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. If you have been with us as a listener for long at all, you know how much we love governors. Some of the most interesting, effective political work in our country is being done at the state level. And that is absolutely true in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, where our guest today, Governor Josh Shapiro, serves. Governor Shapiro has taken an approach to governing that prioritizes efficiency and enacting real, practical change for citizens, meeting people exactly where they are, thinking about how government can really go to work for us. We were honored to talk with him at the end of June, right before the state budget was passed, about that work, and cannot wait to share that conversation with you.  

[00:01:17] Before we do, just want to say that we love seeing all of the good work that unfolds across the country. You can really only be depressed about politics if you confine your politics to sort of national headline news. When you see what's happening in communities all over the country, there are some challenging stuff there too. But there are so many people who are so inspiring in their leadership and their vision. And Sarah and I love connecting in real life. So, if you would like to have us come to your school, your workplace, your organization to talk about hard conversations, navigating disagreement, harnessing disagreement as a strength, we would love to do that. You can reach out to Alise, Hello@Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com, and we will have conversation about how we might come to your community.  

Alise [00:02:09] We are thrilled to be sharing our conversation with Governor Shapiro today. It is a great one that we know you're going to appreciate, especially considering you might be seeing his name on the new short list of potential VP candidates. While we can't speak to that, and we may even have that question resolved by the time you hear this tomorrow morning at the pace things are going, we knew we couldn't release this episode without some thoughts from Sarah and Beth about the huge shift in the presidential race over the weekend. Joe Biden has chosen to suspend his run for re-election and has fully endorsed his vice president, Kamala Harris, as his successor. Many, many prominent Democrats, including Governor Shapiro, have already expressed their support and endorsement of Vice President Harris, so it looks almost certain that she will be the nominee. There was also a massive swell of grassroots support and donating on Sunday evening after the news broke.  

[00:02:56] We will, of course, have lots more to say about all of this in the weeks and months ahead. We will be back to more regular programing in August. For today, though, you are going to hear Sarah and Beth share their early reactions. They recorded overnight from Japan and Scotland respectively. Then after that conversation, you'll hear our wonderful chat with Governor Shapiro. If you want to learn more about Vice President Harris, I have linked two of our previous episodes in the show notes. One is Five Things You Need to Know About Kamala Harris episode that we did in 2020, when Joe Biden selected her as his vice president. The other is an episode of our premium show, More to Say, that Beth did last year about Harris's accomplishments as VP. I've made that episode free to everyone through our Patreon page, so you can find both of those linked in the show notes of this episode.  

[00:03:41] Thank you all for understanding the limits of our audio abilities during all these breaking news moments that have occurred while Sarah and Beth are out of the country. Huge, huge thanks to the team at Studio D for making them sound as good as possible and working with us while we have just continually changed up our plans on them. Next up, Sarah and Beth on the fresh look of the 2024 presidential race.  

[00:04:01] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:04:11] Hi again, Sarah.  

Sarah [00:04:13] Hi.  

Beth [00:04:13] I'm wondering, how you are and where you were when you received the latest history making news that has occurred while we are supposed to be on vacation.  

Sarah [00:04:24] Yeah, this vacation is news-filled. Well, that's how I would politely put it. So, I woke up in Osaka, Japan on Monday morning to 130 text messages and I thought, oh my God, it happened! He dropped out of the race. I knew the second I saw my text messages. And you know what's so funny, though? I did not have a visceral reaction to that as I did to the moment I read on Twitter that Nancy Pelosi didn't believe he could win, and she was working to get him to step aside. In that moment when I read that, I started to cry and it washed over my body so intensely. And this I just thought, okay, finally. It was really getting to drag on as I'm concerned. So, this didn't happen a moment too soon, as far as Joe Biden stepping out.  

Beth [00:05:12] Well, I was in Inverness. We just came back from a day on Isle of Skye, and we had had dinner and had gotten back into our flat here, and we were talking with Ellen. She was kind of having a little bit of a meltdown. Everybody's getting tired. And in the middle of it, the news popped up and I was like, okay, well, I'll get back to this in a second, which is kind of deal with where we are right now. I agree, I have not felt very emotional about this since the debate, really. And I think it's because I have for a long time felt that it was wrong for him to run again and wrong to continue the campaign. And what has been especially clarifying to me are all the people who are mad at those of us who believed he needed to step back, saying constantly, "When are you going to put this to bed?" Because the answer to me, is it's not going to bed, ever. If he won in a landslide, if he had cleared the Electoral College, had a huge mandate from the country, he still would be the president and there would still be scrutiny of his ability to do the job.  

[00:06:23] Every single time he came to the microphone, there was never going to be a day when people stepped back from this because it's real and you can think about it being real in a matter of degrees. But I think our nation would have spent four years-- assuming he could have won, which seemed increasingly unlikely to me. I think our nation would have spent those four years on the edge of our seats every time something really monumental was taking place and we needed him to show up for it. And that is not fair to him. It's not fair to his family. It's not fair to the country. So, I haven't felt emotionally tied up in it as much as just feeling a sense of relief that we're finally going to get to move on here.  

Sarah [00:07:06] Yeah, because there was no plan. There's no argument to win against the march of time. There's no strategy to undo aging despite what the billion-dollar anti-aging beauty [inaudible] to try to tell you. It's a one-way direction. I've been following this more closely than I wanted to on my vacation, more closely than I want to admit to on my vacation. And it was just exhausting- that up down every day. Okay, he's considering. No, he's dug in. This like Lion of Winter King Lear at Rehoboth Beach. I was not here for it. I'm so, so delighted that he has stepped aside. And I know it was easy for me to sit here and say, "What's the big deal? The writings on the wall," and I have no idea what it would be like to see the 50 years in public service come to end this way. Like, I can see all that and also it didn't need to be like this over the last two weeks.  

[00:08:04] I'm glad it's over. I think we will unify even quicker. But I guess I was frustrated with it. But also, it's true what I've been telling Griffin about Kamala Harris [inaudible]. Like, she's a human. This is a very human reaction. These people are just human beings. The journalists, the representatives, the senators, the podcasters, the whatever. We're all just human beings. And this was an emotionally exhausting human interaction. But I am just enormously relieved that he finally decided to step aside. And I am willing to praise him for this patriotic act now that he has done it, and to look back on his years in public service and give him all the praise that he deserves. I think that it has been understandably fraught for him and for everyone.  

Beth [00:09:06] I cannot imagine how difficult it must have been for him over the last couple of weeks to have people he's been close to, allied with, publicly saying that it's time for him to step back. I'm sure it's been hurtful. I'm sure it's been a reckoning of the sense of self. I'm sure he has all kinds of feelings tied up in how his son views this, how his family members view it. And I think it's been so emotional for the public, because this doesn't happen in a vacuum, it calls to mind situations that everyone has navigated in their lives, just on a different scale, with different sets of considerations and different responsibilities. And so, I constantly try to remember, even when I think about my experiences with aging, yes, that's relevant, and you have no concept what it's like to be the president of the United States and the immense stress and the immense demands and the immense responsibilities. I read about it all day, every day for a living and I still can't put my body in that space and know what that takes, and what it takes from you and what it exacts on you. And so, I try to step back from imposing of my own experiences onto this because of that. But it's hard. It's been hard on everybody. You can tell.  

Sarah [00:10:20] I mean, remember when Donald Trump ran for president for a month and then sat in that meeting with Barack Obama and just watched it wash over his face? [Inaudible]. You just don't know until you know. Now, Beth, I don't want to get into this because I want to talk about it for three hours. But I do need you to commit now that we will do an entire episode, perhaps with Susan Page on Nancy Pelosi's role inside this entire situation.  

Beth [00:10:47] I think that is probably the most important thing we can dissect on the other side of this.  

Sarah [00:10:52] Oh my God, yes!  

Beth [00:10:54] Because we have not seen someone so clearly answer that call for leadership in such a dramatic way. And I want to do kind of the what ifs. If that had happened sooner for Democrats. If someone had done it for Republicans back in 2016. There are so many break glass moments where no one would break the glass. And it's incredible to me that she chose to do it here and that she did it in such a calculated way. I mean, I thought the memes were great. Yes, I commit to a long conversation on Nancy Pelosi.  

Sarah [00:11:29] Oh, my God. Imma be talking about it for the rest of my life-- Nancy Patricia Pelosi for the rest of my life. Okay, so now I guess as we do this quick processing, we got to talk about your girl who you've been standing for this whole time, Kamala Harris. I mean, are we even pretending like she's not going to be the nominee? We're not doing that. We're all just [inaudible]. I feel like we've decided.  

Beth [00:11:52] I hope that we can just decide, because this has taken a few weeks. I might have felt differently about that a few weeks ago, I wouldn't have, but I could have made a better argument a few weeks ago. But now, with the compressed time that we have, I think it is really important to just let the-- they've raised like $47 million since he announced. So, I think the enthusiasm is there. She has the experience. Can you think of how she could have better handled this weird interregnum that she's navigated? I mean, she's been very graceful through a very, very hard time.  

Sarah [00:12:33] No, 100%. I mean, also Charlie [inaudible] and so I think that probably all we need to know. I can tell you that my 15-year-old has already added coconut to his new profile name, which I think is [inaudible] or some version. And that's the most exciting part to me, is to see him-- I'm going to tear up. To see him excited and not being cool about a candidate. He even said we've all forgotten what it's like not to just run against someone, but to run for someone you're excited for. I mean, it's adorable seeing we've all forgotten he's only 15, but it's just so wonderful to see your own child and there's just all these other young people, excited to say, like, okay-- and it's not just about young people. All our listeners who called their reps and called their senators and called their governors and said, "No, we don't want this. Please, please, we don't want this. Listen to our voices," and are messaging me and saying, "I feel like my voice was heard. I felt like something made a difference. We wanted something different; we got it." It's just the most amazing thing to watch and feel and witness and experience. I cannot express how exciting it is for me, for everyone, and especially to see my kids excited about a presidential race.  

Beth [00:13:59] I hear some of our listeners saying, I'm excited, but I'm also nervous because I'm just afraid America won't elect a black woman. And here's what I have been thinking about. We went to Edinburgh Castle a few days ago and we happened to be there on Camilla's birthday. And so, at this castle in Scotland, where the Scots and the English battled it out over and over brutally throughout history, there is a celebration of Queen Consort Camilla's birthday. There's so many historical improbabilities in that, right? There's just so many things that had to line up exactly right to get there. And I look at Kamala Harris and think about the fact that the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade, that Trump has been criminally charged, like there's so many historical improbabilities that seem to be lining up to say, yes, it's time for a woman.  

[00:14:56] And yes, it's time for a woman who is black, who has Indian heritage, who in so many ways represent the way that America is a grab bag of culture and identity and skill sets and interests and passions. She's a fantastic representation of the very best that America can be. And I also love that the best insult Trump has for her is that she laughs too much. Perfect, bring it. Laughing, Kamala. She exudes too much joy. Great. Love it. I feel so good about how this is shaping up, and I can't seem to tap into any of that anxiety right now, because it seems to me that history is pointing us into a very improbable place, I admit it, but a lot of what's happened is very improbable.  

Sarah [00:15:52] I mean, we've elected a black man and we elected a woman by the popular vote. It was just the electoral college and a million other very specific situations that aligned against Hillary Clinton. And we are the committee. Don't talk like that. Like, just don't. Don't talk like people aren't ready. Not to sound completely woo woo. And I believe in electoral strategy. And Griffin and I are already plotting which [inaudible] we want to go knock doors in for Kamala. But just don't do that. That feeds on an energy. Like anxiety lies. Don't let this-- it's almost like this caricature of America takes a place in people's brain and they decide what we're capable or what we're not capable of. And especially after electing Barack Hussein Obama twice. Donald Trump won. Obviously, we can surprise ourselves in different ways. I don't have any doubt about that. I think that we have plenty of time to define her positively. And I really think Nikki Haley was right the whole time. Whoever decided not to go with the eighty-year-old is going to win, people said literally anything different will be great.  

[00:17:00] And so, I think she has some questions to answer. She's not perfect. There will be stuff that will come out that will stick with some people and it'll be negative. That's inevitable in a presidential race. But a few weeks ago, I was sort of in my head, I think, before the debate, thinking, "Here we are again with another Biden-Trump election." And I thought, "I'm I going to see a female president in my lifetime?" And I thought, "Well, if I do, it'll probably be in my 50s. I still have to wait a bunch longer." And so, to have this turn of event and see her here ready, like, oh my God, I'm just so excited! My heart is so full with the possibility of finally having a female president. It's just, oh, God, I'm so, so proud of us. I'm proud of the Democratic Party for acting like a party, for doing what the Republicans couldn't do, for uniting around her so quickly. I think her team looks strong. I think the way they're sort of answering and pivoting and the way she's dealt with all this is incredible. And now we just get the excitement of picking a VP candidate. And at best, I'm just going to say it right now, I think it's going to be our governor. I'm putting it on the record.  

Beth [00:18:14] You think so? She has a good roster of choices. I haven't seen a name that I would be unhappy about in that slot. But I am partial to Governor Beshear and Shapiro, and I could make a good case for either of them. I think I'd probably lean slightly more Shapiro right now, but I'm always for Andy. I do want to say about seeing a woman president; I don't know if there is a way to capture how deeply American women need that in the fallout of Roe being overturned. I think the Dobbs decision has steeped in and stewed, and the wake of it has been so ugly and painful and created so much suffering.  

[00:19:05] And that is a dynamic that's so hard to capture when we're still talking inflation and the economy and President Biden's capability. You can't really get to that with Biden versus Trump the way you could get to that with Harris versus Trump. And for my daughters, I hope that we can say, you know what, this right was stripped away and states went in very, very cruel directions. And on the other side of it, the American people said over and over and over again, and then in the most dramatic way possible, this is still a great country to live in as a woman. I think that's really important.  

Sarah [00:19:46] Yeah. And I think there's just so many levels that she is uniquely suited [inaudible]. I mean, obviously we don't have time to get into that total disaster of a convention speech, but he's such a weak candidate. She can, as a prosecutor, go after the felony conviction. As a former prosecutor, this rising crime hellscape, he's very weak on. Obviously, Dobbs. And honestly, I don't even think the fact that she was the border Czar is such a strong attack they think it is. One, because border crossings are down and I think they've taken a lot of steps. And I think she's been out there; she's been in these places. She can talk about it and rightfully point out that we had a deal that they walked away from because they wanted to attack President Biden, who is no longer the candidate on this.  

[00:20:40] I just think the way that she can run on the record, but also as a vice president distance herself from other people sort of weaknesses, Biden in particular brought as a candidate, it's going to be a really great race. And you know what else? I'm not sad about it being such a short run. This is how long it should be all the time; 100 days sounds about right. Now, I would appreciate [inaudible] if this phenomenon did not happen in historical proportions while we're both on vacation. But other than that, no notes.  

Beth [00:21:14] Yeah. Because I would like to also spend-- so maybe ask for your commitment to three hours on what Kamala has done as vice president. You know I have strong feelings about this and people need to know. And even some of the more recent profiles of her have just pissed me off because they stay so focused on how she handles media, and so focused on her psyche instead of what she's been out there doing. And I want to talk about what she's been out there doing. All of that put into our future. And then we need to talk about the JD Vance pick. So many things that we need to talk about. For today, the thing that I keep thinking about is the importance of civic grace, which is what we've built our whole ethos around here. Because I have watched as we all, over this long period of weeks since the debate, really dug in on what we think needed to happen next.  

[00:22:10] And I think this is the moment for civic grace with ourselves, with each other, to just say what's happened has happened. And probably all of us would rewrite some part of it if we could, but what's happened has happened, and there's a next step to take and will disagree about what the next step should look like vigorously. And there's something good in that. But it is a really important thing to be able to keep moving forward and keep putting one foot in front of the other. And look, if she loses, I still believe this was the right thing to do. And other people are not going to feel that way. And so, on the other side of this, we're going to have to have a measure of civic grace, because there isn't a battle plan that is circumstance proof or that is voter proof. I just hope that we can all look at each other and say, you know what, we really disagreed about this. And that's okay. That's good. That's healthy. And now we get to go on to the next step. And I'm excited to take that step with you because we're together for it.  

Sarah [00:23:17] Yes, definitely excited. And this isn't anything I've ever said on a Pantsuit Politics podcast before, but I got to wrap up because I'm getting rained on.  

Beth [00:23:25]  All right, well, enjoy your day in Kyoto. And we're going to Loch Ness today to see one of the world's great mysteries. And I'm excited to be back with you where we can really sort through all the things that need to be sorted through.  

Sarah [00:23:39] Same.  

Beth [00:23:41] Next up, Governor Josh Shapiro.  

[00:23:43] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:23:53] Governor, I'm sure I learned about you along with the rest of the country with the I-95 overpass collapse. This big fiery headline. It's going to take months, everybody was panicking, and then like six weeks later, Gritty and the mascots rolling across the overpass. And it just feels like your very unique approach to government, this idea that whatever you expect government to be and to do or not do, I'm here to disrupt that. Is that how you think about it?  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:24:24] Yeah, it is. But I got to just first off tell you, I'm so psyched to be on this podcast with you guys. So, thank you for having me. And one respectful correction, it wasn't six weeks, it was 12 days it took us to get that road done.  

Sarah [00:24:39] You and this gracious humble brag.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:24:42] Did you see what I did there? It was so good. Yeah. But listen, Sarah, in all sincerity, I believe government should be a force for good in people's lives. And I know we live in these super polarized times, but one thing everybody kind of generally agrees on is that they tend to feel let down at times from their government. The government doesn't solve problems. And so, the way I look at it every day is I got a job to do for the good people of Pennsylvania, and my job is to put points on the board for them every day. We literally live by three letters: GSD, Get Stuff Done.  

Sarah [00:25:17] You can say it, this is a safe space. Yes.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:25:19] Okay. Get Shit Done. That is what we focus on every day. And I understand, people are going to agree with me on every issue. We're not going to always see the same views on policies or politics, but if I can help restore people's faith in government, that we can actually get shit done and we can put those points on the board and we can move the ball forward, I think that's really, really important. And that's what I focus on every single day. I think that's what some other governors like yours, Andy Beshear in Kentucky, are focused on every day. Just putting points on the board, making things happen for people. And I-95 is a great example of that. When that road collapsed and my chief of staff called me early in the morning, she said to me, "Hey, I-95 collapsed," and I was like, "Oh, it's collapsed like some technical term that doesn't actually mean collapse?" She's like, no, it literally collapsed. But instead of fretting about it, instead of letting the bureaucracy just grind things for a halt, we went to work and we got that road reopened in just 12 days and hopefully restored people's faith in government a little bit as well.  

Beth [00:26:20] We have talked to hear a lot about the expression, like, we want government to work more like a business, and how that's not exactly it because the government is different than a business. But I like your evolution that government should move at the speed of business and be a place where you come through any door, you get your questions answered. So, will you talk to us a little bit about some of the just really practical things you've done to try to make sure people in Pennsylvania get their shit done?  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:26:46] Yeah. Well, Beth, first of all, I think you're right to kind of point that out about we got too many politicians say we're going to run it like a business. Well, government, small business. We're not trying to turn a profit here. But what we're actually trying to do is service people to help them to solve problems in their life. And it's not something you can always find the ROI on the way maybe a shareholder would demand of their corporation. Now you got to be fiscally responsible. You got to be careful not to waste people's money. And we certainly are. When I do this work, I focus on moving at the speed of business because government is just too damn slow. And so, we have sped everything up. We reformed our permitting process. I'm going to really nerd out on you here. And just to give you a sense, you need a business license to do business in Pennsylvania- every business. Some big business, some small storefront business. And that permit the day I took office took eight weeks to get; now it takes two days. Just two days. That's an example of moving at the speed of business.  

[00:27:44] We also think there should be no wrong door. So, if you call, if you go online, if you stop in the office, you should get a quick answer and it should be the same throughout. And, listen, folks are busy right now. Lori and I are blessed with four kids. We got four kids living crazy busy lives. We each have our own responsibilities. We don't really have time to go sit in a waiting room for an hour to get an answer. But if we can go online and get a quick answer and know that it's the right answer and it can service the needs that we have, that's a win. And it gives people faith in their government again. And that's the focus. No wrong door, speed things up, get shit done.  

Sarah [00:28:26] Well, and here's the thing. I was just listening to a podcast where they were talking about a study where they found--  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:28:30] Wait, you make podcasts and--  

Sarah [00:28:33] And I listen to them too at the same time. Crazy, right?  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:28:36] It's very impressive.  

Sarah [00:28:36] I'm very in on podcasting.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:28:39] Okay.  

Sarah [00:28:39] And they were talking about a study where people said that to show that you sort of understand government in the news and what's going on, cynicism is the way you do that. Cynicism has become like a stand in for knowledge. So, I think when you do that, when you're disrupting this cynical idea about government, the impact is so huge. But you're still running up against not just how government functions, but the reality of our lives. And I think what is so interesting is some of these programs that you're doing in Pennsylvania to deal with not just the way government functions, but the realities of which government has to deal with, housing costs, childcare costs. So, talk to us about that. How it's not just about how government shows up in people's lives, but how it's showing up to deal with these bigger economic realities.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:29:34] Yeah. Look, there are a lot of economic challenges. And I hear that directly from Pennsylvanians every single day. I'm here in this beautiful office in the state Capitol and I'm privileged to be here, but I kind of have an informal rule for myself. I try to only be in here about three days a week so I can be on the road about four days a week. Why do I like to be on the road? I'm still being governor. I'm still doing stuff. I'm still getting shit done. But I'm also able to listen to people in these unscripted moments and hear what's on their mind. And look, they're obviously concerned about rising costs and seniors in particular, and families about the rising costs we're dealing with. And from those conversations, I brought that back to the Capitol here, and we passed the largest targeted tax cut for seniors to be able to help them stay in their homes. And we passed an incredibly large targeted tax cut for families with kids in childcare tripling our childcare tax credit and effectively tripling it.  

[00:30:29] And by the way, we did that and got that done even though I'm literally the only governor in the entire nation with a divided legislature. I've got a House led by Democrats; the Senate led by Republicans. So, it's hard work to do that. But that work, those two examples, are things that we were able to get done because I heard directly from people. I listen to their struggles, and I brought it back to this building and we made real change. I want to come back to something you said at the beginning of your question about the reality that we live in, people getting information. I think for too long politicians have tried to say to people, if you want to know what I'm doing, if you want to know what your government is doing for you, you better head on over to the local news at 9 p.m., or you better head on over to your newspaper or whatever that you read.  

[00:31:16] And by the way, local news is great. Local papers are great; I'm not dissing them in any way. But if you have someone who's only getting their information from a podcast, you have someone only getting their information from TikTok, you name it, it's not their responsibility to bend to me to figure out what's going on. It's my responsibility to meet them where they are. And so, as we do this work, it all fits together, right? I travel around and listen to people, bring their ideas back here to the Capitol, pass things that matter to them, and then try and meet them where they are online in their communities, whatever, on a medium that is important to them. There are a lot of people that listen to your awesome podcast who feel comfortable getting news here. Well, it's my job to find you, not your job to try to find me. And so, that's why I'm grateful for this conversation.  

Beth [00:32:04] I spent some time on the new website today for the state of Pennsylvania; and looking specifically at these programs, I was impressed that there are like YouTube-able videos, short videos to say, here's how you apply. Let me just walk you through this entire process. So that kind of self-service has to make it easier on your end, but also for the citizen to think like, oh my gosh, I don't have to call and stay on hold forever and hope I get somebody who's in a good mood today who can walk me through this.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:32:30] Right. No wrong door. And head on over to Pa.gov. And you don't just get a bunch of press releases about stuff we've done; you actually get the forms you got to fill out to get the services for your kid. You actually get the ability to register to vote. We have a great new way to do that. You have the ability to sign up for a place to park your RV at our state park so you can stay over. By the way, our state parks are free. Come visit us in Pennsylvania. And so, we just want this to be service oriented. And that's why under the leadership of Andy Newman and Bree Pardo, we have totally revamped our website, Pa.gov. We got work to do and we got ways to go, we're kind of still in our beta phase, but we think we're light years ahead of where we were. And I think we're ahead of where a lot of other states are right now.  

Sarah [00:33:18] Well, I want to talk about how you think about not just the way government runs, but the type of people you surround yourself to fill those government positions. We saw that you signed an executive order saying that 92% of state government jobs open to people who do not have college degrees. I mean, that's like, what, 65,000 jobs?  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:33:38] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:33:38] And so, I love that order and thinking about the requirements. So how did you think about not just the actual employment requirements, but the type of person you want building that website and the type of person you want answering that phone if there's no wrong door.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:33:54] Well, for me, it really starts with treating everybody with respect. And I think for too long-- and not just here in Pennsylvania, but I'll just speak about Pennsylvania in particular-- we sort of established these artificial barriers to entry. We said, if you don't have a college degree, which is not attainable for some people, whether for economic reasons or others, then you need not apply. And as a result, we were shutting people out who could really contribute to the Commonwealth. People with incredible skills, whether in the military or at a union hall, you name it. And we basically kind of gave them the back of the hand and said, don't show up here. I signed that executive order because it was about respect and it was also about competitiveness. You see, I think if we have a bigger tent that we're pulling in from, we're going to have a more skilled workforce, a more diverse workforce, and we're going to be stronger when it comes to solving people's problems.  

[00:34:53] And by the way, in the year or so since it has been in effect, just over 60% of our new hires do not have a college degree. Think about that. That's huge. And so, we're just saying, everybody, we respect you and our doors are open. Relative to kind of broader decisions on who occupies these positions of authority, it is very important to me to have diversity in our ranks. I want to be clear; diversity is not just apparent diversity, it's also how you grew up, what your political affiliation is. Were you from a rural community or an urban community? I like having people around me who have different views than me, who have different political philosophies than me, who challenge me when we're sitting around the table trying to make big decisions. And in taking that approach to filling out my cabinet, my senior staff, we've achieved not only I think the most gifted and talented staff around, certainly in the nation, I believe, but we also have extraordinary what I call that apparent diversity. We have more women in positions of leadership than men. We have a more diverse cabinet than ever before.  

[00:36:03] I've got a Republican that I appointed to the Department of State which oversees our elections. Think about that. In these polarized times, I'm a Democratic governor. We've got a Republican leading our Department of State which oversees elections, because I think the administration of elections shouldn't be a partisan issue. Obviously, we can have our partisan opinions on who we ultimately go vote for, but the administration of it should be above politics. That's an example of diversity as well. So, I think it is really important that you have no artificial barriers to entry, and that I surround myself with people from all different walks of life who have different talents, different perspectives, different approaches. And as a result, I think I can be a better governor because of them.  

Beth [00:36:47] I think what's really exciting especially about the college requirement, but all of this cultural change that you're bringing about, we are accustomed to hearing from government officials we could do everything so much better if we had more money. Everything needs more money. And a lot of things do need more money, that's true. But I love hearing some things it's not just about money, it's about the attitude that we bring to it, the posture and the types of people that we bring into these roles.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:37:17] You could not be more right, Beth. Let me go back-- remember I said before business license took about eight weeks the day I got sworn in now it takes about two days; you know what we did? We actually went and listened to the people who were processing business licenses and said, hey, what do you need? And they needed a little bit more technology that cost a little bit of money. Relatively speaking, it's very little. They wanted more flexibility to be able to do some of this work from home, because they were spending so much time commuting that it was actually chewing into their workday and their ability to be as effective as they thought they could be. And in some cases, that required us to hire a few more people to do this work. So, kind of more hands-on deck.  

[00:37:58] And so, yeah, in some cases it cost a little bit more money. Again, relatively speaking, very little. But because we focused their attention on this, because they knew they had the support of the governor and because we actually listened to them and what they needed to do their jobs more effectively, we were able to make real strides there. And I think that's what government needs to do more often. Listen to your employees. What do they need? Where can technology help them? I'm the first governor in the nation to sign an executive order incorporating AI into the work tools that we have. That's allowing people to be more efficient-- not displacing any workers, but allowing them to be more efficient. So, I think just listening to your workforce, meeting them where they are, getting them the tools they need. In many cases, it's not about more money, as you said, Beth, it's just about actually being more efficient, effective with your time and the resources that you have.  

Sarah [00:38:51] So you mentioned your divided legislator. You also have the full-time state legislator. Now, I have some Commonwealth envy about that. I wish we had a full time. Am I right to wish we had a full time?  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:39:02] I don't know.  

Sarah [00:39:02] That's just there. It feels like the work of state government is so important to do it part time; although, I'm sure the divided aspect makes it more complicated.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:39:12] Yeah, I mean, the divide aspect certainly makes it complicated. And in many cases, my job is to help the parties figure out how to talk to one another, right? Because we're not that far apart on a number of things. I think it depends. I would like to see our legislature maybe have more focus in their sessions so that we don't have these long gaps where they're not here and then there's kind of a rush to do things.  

Sarah [00:39:40] Like Congress.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:39:42] Yeah, right. But like everything, they're going to work on their own timetable and do things the way they're going to do. But we got to solve these problems. And I think more and more problems aren't being solved in D.C., they're being solved right in our states. And at the risk of really nerding out on you as a lawyer here, it was Justice Brandeis who famously said states are the laboratories of democracy. This really is where things are tried and where we do big things, and then they become models for the rest of the nation. And that's what we're trying to do in Pennsylvania.  

Sarah [00:40:15] I love that.  

Beth [00:40:16] I heard you interviewed recently, and someone was asking about the Biden administration getting credit for certain policies; and you kind of interrupted the questioner and said, "You just used three acronyms that people who don't pay attention to the news don't know." It has to be frustrating, as a governor, for everyone to know your name and more people to turn out to vote in your race, but then a lot of what you can do depends on legislative races. And if your state is like Kentucky, we have very low turnout for our state legislative races. Many of them are not competitive at all. And I just would love to hear how you think we can get more people excited about who they send to their state capitals to do this important work.  

Sarah [00:41:03] Especially if they're there full time.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:41:05] Yeah, exactly. Look, I think helping folks understand what their state lawmakers do and why it's critically important that they have them there-- I think people get very turned off by D.C., and they sort of feel like that is what government is everywhere. And that's not the case. It's not the case in Kentucky under Andy Beshear's leadership. It's not the case I think here in Pennsylvania under my leadership. I think folks need to understand that if you care about your kids’ school, if you care about public safety, if you care about your fundamental freedoms, these are all issues that are being decided in the states. And let's talk about freedom for a minute. I mean, under Donald Trump, millions of women, including our daughter, lost freedoms that they had when they were born in this nation. They had the freedom to govern the medical decisions over their own body, and now they don't. And now it matters what state you live in to determine whether or not you have that autonomy. You have that agency.  

[00:42:05] Well, here in Pennsylvania, if a bill to restrict abortion rights reached my desk, I would veto it. But there's a lot of work that happens before anything can reach my desk, and that work is done by state lawmakers. So I would say to anybody in Pennsylvania or any other state, when you go vote this year, obviously everybody's focused on President Biden and Trump, but understand that your state lawmakers, the people running for office, they're the ones who are going to decide if your freedoms are restricted, if you can marry who you love, if your kid's school is going to have the resources it needs, if we're going to have enough mental health counselors in our communities to deal with the big challenges that we face, if we're going to have enough police on the beat to keep our communities safe.  

[00:42:49] These are all issues being decided in state legislatures across the country. And today, we have more than a third of women in this nation who live in states where they've lost their freedom to be able to make a decision over their own body. And those decisions have largely been made by state representatives and state senators in this post Dobbs world. And so, it is really, really important when people go to vote this year that they pay attention to their state senators and their state reps.  

Sarah [00:43:22] I want to shift a little bit from talking about state issues and legislative issues and government efficiency issues that don't get a lot of attention, that people don't engage with a lot, maybe have some high order ideas about, but don't engage to. Issue that you've talked a lot about that I think people have very strong opinions about and engage a lot, which is the war in Gaza. So, you've spoken a lot about this. We don't want to ask you to rehash everything, but I think it is interesting to watch you shift between not just topic matters that get a lot of engagement and that don't get a lot of engagement, but actual constituencies that are deeply engaged in political issues and global issues and constituencies that maybe know what's going on but this isn't top of mind. How do you think about that when you're talking about this complete, huge, broader range of things that leave people engaged, angry, disconnected, cynical, the whole spectrum.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:44:20] That's a great question. I think first and foremost, you got to be really true to yourself. You got to know where your core is. You got to know what you believe. And that doesn't mean that you should ever be inflexible to other opinions or to changing your mind. I've changed my mind on issues over time, and I've been very outspoken about that. But I think, first and foremost, you got to be true to yourself. And then second, you've got to be true to your constituents. In my case, the good people of Pennsylvania. What do I mean by that second point? You can't say one thing in one room, something else in another room. And while people may disagree with my view on what's happening in the Middle East or agree with my view, they're going to always get the same answer. I think it is very, very important that leaders speak and act with moral clarity always. But in particular, when you're dealing with issues like what we're seeing in the Middle East, where on October 7th, 1200 people were murdered and women were brutally raped and kidnaped and sexually violated.  

[00:45:28] And then where you have seen in Gaza, in the midst of this war, tens of thousands of people killed, many of them innocent women and children. And I think it is possible to carry both pains at the same time, and to understand that there is a lot of nuance when it comes to the Middle East. And it is clearly not an easy issue; otherwise, it would have been resolved thousands of years ago. This is something that lives with us today. And to be clear, I've got strong opinions on that. But one thing I always try and leave space for is a lot of thoughtful, nuanced answers. Now, where I leave no space and where there is no nuance is where people try to use the current events of the Middle East to justify their anti-Semitism, or to justify their Islamophobia. That is not okay.  

[00:46:23] And so I have been very clear to politicians on the right and the left, and to people from all different walks of life, that you are entitled to your views on the Middle East. We don't have to agree on that. And you're entitled to protest if you don't like something or speak in favor of something if you do, but do not use that to foment hate against others. That's where we have to draw a line, and that is what I've spent a great deal of time focusing my public comments on, is trying to keep everybody here in Pennsylvania safe and speak out against all forms of hatred and bigotry.  

Beth [00:47:00] Well, governor, we know that when you speak about this issue, someone is always going to find it offensive, harmful, off base. And it's refreshing to hear you say that the first thing is just to know who you are and to be consistent in these spaces. And so, in the spirit of knowing who you are, we always end our show with something outside of politics.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:47:21] Oh, good.  

Beth [00:47:21] Because we want people to know who we are, and we want people to know who our guests are. So, I was reading about how you met your wife in the ninth grade, and I would love to hear in a few minutes here everything that you two have learned about being in a long, successful partnership where both of you have changed a lot over time.  

Sarah [00:47:41] I thought you were going to ask him about Taylor and Travis, but I guess this is a good--  

Beth [00:47:46] Well, look, it's tangential. It's very cool now to gush about the people that you love. So, you can Travis Kelce out here if you'd like to. 

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:47:55] We can do a little Taylor after, she's a Pennsylvania girl. So, we're very proud of her. 

Sarah [00:48:00] You knew he was going to take that tie-in.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:48:03] Yeah, the one and missing girl right there. And by the way, we like the other Kelce Jason. We don't like Travis Kelce [crosstalk].  

Sarah [00:48:08] That's a good point. Good point.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:48:11] Now, listen, I met this girl in the ninth grade and I flirted with her like crazy and, I guess, wore her down by the end of the ninth grade and she finally agreed to go out with me. Which in the ninth grade literally meant that we were going to go to a Goodnoe Farm and get ice cream together. I mean, that literally was what we did. It was across the street from her house, and I was just madly in love with her. And I don't know, you knew it. Now, we had a little bit of a break in college, and then right after college we ended up back in the same city together for the first time in a few years. And six weeks, literally, after we sort of ended up back in this city together, I proposed to her. I just knew. And she said, yes. And we've been blessed to be married for 27 years, and we are incredibly blessed with four amazing children. Now, what I would say to answer your question, and far be it from me to give marriage advice to others, but I'll just say this--  

Sarah [00:49:13] I think 27 years you've logged in some hours. You're good. 

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:49:17] Yeah, she put up with me a long time. I will tell you, it's not like I knew I wanted to be governor. Hell, I didn't even know I wanted to go into politics. But I think even though our lives have changed so much and we're doing so many different things than we ever imagined, we focused on getting the fundamentals right and knowing that life would change. But if we had those fundamentals right when we started this-- not ninth grade, but when we started and got married, then we were going to be okay. So, for example, faith plays a very central role in our lives. We were locked in on that. We agreed on that. We knew we wanted to have a family. We wanted to have kids. I don't know that we knew we wanted four, three or two whatever. But we knew we wanted to have a family. We knew we wanted to center our lives around our kids. We knew, I think, generally speaking, Lori wanted to be home with them.  

[00:50:09] And we kind of had the basics. So that has life took these crazy turns for us-- and we've been privileged to be in these roles as governor and first lady now-- that we could sustain those changes in our lives. And I would also say that through it all, we have always focused on communicating. Like even when we're annoyed with each other in a fight or whatever, we would always communicate. And the way we do that-- and we're not together every single day, just given how crazy our lives are. Sometimes she in our family home, sometimes we're at the governor's residence, so it may not happen every single day, but darn near every single day we take a walk. And when we take that walk, we're not on our phones, we're not on whatever, we are talking.  

[00:50:57] And typically not about politics or work-- sometimes it comes up, but it's mainly like about us or about the kids, about what's going on. How are you doing? And I have found that over time having the basics set right when we started and then just constantly talking and communicating, that's been the key. And I feel really blessed. Lori's an amazing woman and an incredible first lady. I'll tell you something else. She is an incredibly private person. And so, for her now to be in this public role and be out front speaking directly to Pennsylvanians, that was super uncomfortable for her. But she is doing an amazing job, and she has found her way of doing that. And she's pretty amazing. I think she's got 100% approval rating.  

Sarah [00:51:44] I thought you said every day and I thought you're going to say we exchanged Taylor Swift memes. But I think a walk is nice, too, if that's the other way that you use to communicate.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:51:53] No. We do love Taylor, though. She's great.  

Sarah [00:51:55] Who doesn't?  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:51:57] She's pretty unbelievable- like, next level unbelievable. And it's really cool. It's very cool to see how she makes people feel. And not just young women and girls, everybody. Grown ass men feel good when they hear Taylor Swift. And I'll tell you something else I thought was really cool. When the bad Kelce Travis-- because we love Jason Kelce.  

Sarah [00:52:24] The bad Kelce.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:52:25] When Travis carried her across the stage in the London, I think there's something-- maybe I'm over reading this, but there's something to that. Look, he's a celebrity, he's a famous guy, but she's light years more famous than him. And yet, I think he's showing a lot of dudes out there that I think it's cool to have your wife, your girlfriend, your fiancé, your special someone, it's cool if she's more powerful than you. It's cool that she might have more followers than you or more or whatever than you. That's okay. We don't have to be threatened by that. And I think that's a really important lesson for a lot of men out there, too. And so, for as much as I hate Travis Kelsey for beating us in the Super Bowl, I do admire-- at least superficially, what I've been able to see. I don't I don't know them personally. They seem to have a really healthy relationship.  

Sarah [00:53:20] Yeah, it's really great.  

Beth [00:53:22] They both seem to be people who get shit done, too. They're very committed to excellence and making things happen. So, I feel like there's alignment all around here.  

Sarah [00:53:30] All around.  

Beth [00:53:31] Well, governor, it is such an honor to have you here. Thank you so much for spending time with us. Our audio engineers who will work the sound from this episode are in Pennsylvania. I know they'll be super excited to hear from you.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:53:42] Love that.  

Beth [00:53:42] And we hope you come back sometime!  

Sarah [00:53:44] Yes. What a delight! Thank you so much.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:53:46] Thank you. I got one more thing to say, and that is it was great being here with y'all.  

Sarah [00:53:51] There you go [crosstalk].  

Beth [00:53:52] Very well done. Excellent.  

Sarah [00:53:53] I know you have some Commonwealth group chat with Andy, so you just tell him you got that in there.  

Gov. Josh Shapiro [00:53:59] Well, I'll tell Andy I dropped the y'all. You guys are awesome. You got a super important platform. Keep at it. I admire what you're doing. And don't be strangers. We'll see you soon.  

Beth [00:54:08] Thank you.  

Sarah [00:54:08] Thank you so much.  

[00:54:09] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:54:20] Thank you so much to Governor Shapiro for joining us today. He mentioned a couple of programs, the property tax and rent abatement, child care program. We will put links to that brand new Pennsylvania website in our show notes, so that if you are a resident of Pennsylvania and think you might qualify, you can easily access that information and get connected to your government. We'll be back in your ears on Friday with another episode of The Nuanced Life. Until then, have the best week available to you.  

[00:54:46] Music Interlude. 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family.  

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

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