Political (and Royal) Fashion with Elizabeth Holmes

We are delighted to share this conversation with Elizabeth Holmes of So Many Thoughts. Elizabeth is a former Wall Street Journal style reporter and current fashion commentator who gives political and royal fashion the serious, thoughtful, and fun coverage it deserves.

Thank you for being a part of our community! We couldn't do it without you. To support the show, please subscribe to our Premium content on our Patreon page or Apple Podcasts Subscriptions, or share the word about our work in your circles. Sign up for our newsletter or follow us on Instagram to keep up with everything happening in the world of Pantsuit Politics. You can find information and links for all our sponsors on our website.

EPISODE RESOURCES

Join us on May 30th for The Nuanced Life Live to kick off our summer series with a virtual workshop on work-life balance.

This podcast and every episode of it are wholly owned by Pantsuit Politics LLC and are protected by US and international copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. We hope you'll listen to it, love it, and share it with other people, but not with large language models or machines and not for commercial purposes. Thanks for keeping it nuanced with us.

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] Hi, it's Beth. Thank you so much for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. We're thrilled that you're here. We hope that you enjoyed the Memorial Day holiday. That holiday is why we're in your feed on Wednesday instead of our normal Tuesday/Friday rhythm. It's really important to us to give everyone who works behind the scenes on our show an opportunity to rest and reflect and be with people they love. And we hope that you had that opportunity over the weekend as well. We're really excited today to be joined by Elizabeth Holmes of So Many Thoughts. Sarah sat down with Elizabeth, who is a journalist and commentator on royal and political fashion. Elizabeth provides commentary about the power of fashion choices when you dress for the world stage.  

[00:01:11] You are going to hear Sarah and Elizabeth talk about everyone from Queen Elizabeth to Michelle Obama to Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff, to Travis Kelce. And coincidentally, they will discuss Nikki Haley's fashion choices. This conversation was recorded when Nikki Haley was still a candidate in the Republican nominating contest. Of course, at the end of last week, Nikki Haley announced that she will support Donald Trump for president. And I think their discussion of her wardrobe through and including that Hudson Institute event, really holds up. I am personally still processing her announcement. I let out some visceral reactions on Friday's episode of More to Say, one of our premium shows. I'm certain Sarah and I will continue to discuss it, but it is very interesting to listen to Sarah and Elizabeth talk about her choices and how she presents herself in light of this new information.  

[00:02:03] Before we share that conversation, don't forget that tomorrow, this Thursday night, is our virtual event, The Nuanced Life Live. Even if you can't join us live, if you buy a ticket in advance, you'll be able to get the recording of the event. We've planned some very special conversations. Lots of good questions have come in from all of you about work life balance. That's what we're going to be talking about, because this event is really the kickoff of our Summer, The Nuanced Life series that we've been telling you about for the past couple of weeks. So, we would love to see you live and online tomorrow night at The Nuanced Life Live. All the information that you'll need to get tickets is in the show notes, and we are very, very excited about everything we have planned for you over the summer. Up next, Sarah's conversation with Elizabeth Holmes of So Many Thoughts.  

Sarah [00:03:00] Elizabeth, welcome to Pantsuit Politics.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:03:03] I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.  

Sarah [00:03:05] Now, I am the most excited of the two of us. Listen, I promise you, I am. I have been following your work for so many years. Now you're on Substack, and So Many Thoughts started on Instagram. How did this become your beat? Tell the people what your beat is, if they're not as huge a fan as I am, and how you got started.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:03:23] So I was a Wall Street Journal reporter for 10 years, and I left that job in 2017, and I moved from New York to California, and I had my second kid, and I was hanging out in California. I was freelancing, and I was trying to figure out who I was. Because, let me tell you, when you spent a decade at the Wall Street Journal, that becomes your whole professional identity. And I'm so grateful for the time that I had there. And I adore my colleagues and very much respect all the journalism that comes out of that newspaper. But it was definitely time for a change. And I was sitting there thinking, what am I going to do next? And so, I was freelancing for all different kinds of places. But what I was really interested in was fashion. And it's because at the Wall Street Journal, I covered a lot of different things, including politics (a lifetime ago) but I was a style reporter, and so my eye always goes to what people are wearing. And not just what they're wearing, but what message it sends.  

[00:04:13] Because at the Wall Street Journal, I covered the business of fashion. So, it's not just about beautiful clothes, which they are very beautiful, but it's about the marketing and the branding and the power of fashion and what fashion can say. And my mind went immediately to the royals, who I followed for a very long time. The British royal family. And I got sucked in in 2011 when William and Kate got married. And those women use their fashion so intentionally because they are photographed. Those pictures go around the world in seconds. Before we know what cause they're supporting, what event they're attending, we see what they're wearing and they know that and they use it. They craft a visual brand. They promote their work through their-- like they wear the color of the charity they're attending or something like that. They're very smart in their choices to send a message.  

[00:05:00] And so, back in 2017, when I was hanging out in California nursing my second son in the middle of the night, I saw a picture of Will and Kate on Instagram, and I thought, I have so many thoughts about this. And I screenshotted it, and I added a bunch of little text bubbles, and I posted it. And when I hadn't realized was that there was this very smart and strong community of women and some men too on the internet that wanted to talk about this stuff too, that wanted to talk about what fashion can say. And so, I used all my background as a Wall Street Journal reporter, and talking to these companies and understanding these brands and sort of use it to decode clothing choices. And it was very much about the royals for a long time. And I've since tried to expand a little bit because there's so much good fashion out there, and there's so much that speaks to me. And I love it. I love looking at what someone's wearing and trying to take it to the next step. Not just like, oh, how does it look, but what does it mean?  

Sarah [00:05:52] Yeah. When you expand it into American politics, I was like, the time has come. I'm so excited. Listen, I love the royals. Love. I was in that community where I'm like, thank you. Because you brought a seriousness to it, which I very much appreciated.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:06:08] Because it is serious.  

Sarah [00:06:09] It's very serious.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:06:10] And that's the thing. And people are like, why do you care so much what they wear? I care because they care, because they spend a lot of time. And in the case of the late Queen Elizabeth, she had a team of like 10 people whose jobs it was to get her dressed. And she did it so intentionally and so methodically and so error free for 70 years. People are so quick to dismiss fashion as this frivolous, fun thing. No, it is hard and it is work and it is important. And so, starting with the royals made a lot of sense for me. And now I'm really having fun expanding into all different kinds of fashion.  

Sarah [00:06:45] Well, we did a show on dress codes with our eldest children maybe last year or the year before. And we were trying to kind of work through, why does this matter? What bothers us about it? And we had a listener write in and say, clothing communicates. And I thought, that's it. That's the sentence I needed whenever I have these conversations. That it communicates. And if you're a public figure who doesn't do a lot of interviews, doesn't talk a lot to express how you feel when you're representing an institution, then, of course, it's communicating. Like you said, the pictures speak before anything else and they are speaking. So, you took it seriously. What surprised you the more you did this So Many Thoughts? What did you learn from this diving in- depth that you didn't already realize from your time at the Wall Street Journal?  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:07:36] I think it's how much work it takes and how-- I mean, if you ever try and do this yourself especially, you'll learn that you're not just picking out an outfit that looks nice. You're trying to pick an outfit that means something too, that ties into an event or sends a message in some way.  

Sarah [00:07:51] And that's before you get who made the outfit.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:07:53] Exactly.  

Sarah [00:07:54] That's not even talking about who actually made the coat. We're not even that part yet.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:07:58] Or getting the thing tailored or making sure your pantyhose don't have runs in them. All of that. It's just a tremendous amount of work. There needs to be a broader conversation about the burden of presentation placed on women because it's disproportionate. There's so much more attention placed on women's clothes. But it's also an opportunity. And I think some of the savviest women in power on the global stage right now, they embrace that. They take that as a moment and they use it to their advantage. And I really respect that. And so, when I try and decode or dissect their choices, it's always sort of honoring the effort. Because it's a lot of work.  

Sarah [00:08:37] It's so much work. I remember reading Tom Lorenzo's Mad Men write ups. And I thought, I love this stuff. And I had no idea. Just the color theory or how they would do the roses died as the relationship died. Just the level of things you can subconsciously communicate to people through these layers of clothing choices is available to everyone: storytellers, royalty, politicians. And even us in our own lives. Even when we think we're not communicating with these choices, we are communicating to a certain extent.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:09:10] Yes, costume designers are so good at this. And so, when you're watching your favorite TV show, you can kind of clue into it. And the more you look for it, the more you'll see. But a major unlock for me, do you remember the show, Girls?  

Sarah [00:09:22] Yes.  


Elizabeth Holmes [00:09:22] The show Girls that was on a while back. I remember reading an interview with the costume designer and she's like, "The clothes are not supposed to fit."  

Sarah [00:09:30] Yes, because they're young.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:09:32] They purposely made them not fit. Because, of course, when you're in that season in your life, your clothes don't fit. You look a little off. And that all served the purpose because if they had been in these polished outfits, it wouldn't have made any sense. So, yes, it's all done intentionally.  

Sarah [00:09:47] I love it. Or like with the Mad Men, I got where I would say like, "These people are going to fight," because she would put them in conflicting colors. Like, we got some conflict coming up. Because I had started to decode it before it happens. And I think that is so interesting. So, you're in this royal scene, which is very different. There is a hierarchy of this precision, I would say even higher than fashion figures in the industry. The precision at which they are exercising choices is, like, this is the top of the game. Then you start expanding into American politics. I mean, there are many differences, but what did you notice immediately as far as the difference between the royals and the way they use their clothing to communicate and somebody like Vice President Harris or First Lady Biden.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:10:40] I think the thing that they share is a set of really difficult expectations, right? Because they are supposed to be human. They are supposed to be relatable to a certain extent. In terms of voters, you want to woo voters. And there's this every person idea, you don't want to look lofty or above but you want to be worthy of the position that you hold. And so, with the royal family, they're walking this line of trying to be this accessible royal family, but then also these aspirational figures worthy of living in palaces. And I think there's an element of that in politics here in the US. The big difference, though, is that American politicians speak all the time. That's their job, right? We need to hear from them.  

Sarah [00:11:24] They never stop Elizabeth.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:11:27] Never stop. And royal women don't really. I mean, that is changing and that certainly has been much different in the past couple of years with Harry and Meghan. But in the past, you just saw them. And so, their clothing takes on this very important role, especially like back in Princess Diana's time, she saw that she knew she wasn't-- I mean, she did give a couple great interviews, but for the most part she was just seen. And so, she was crafting her image so carefully and trying to use the clothes to speak for her and work through this really complicated system that she was trapped in. And so, I think here in America, especially when it comes to politicians, you have to consider what they say first and then what they wear, how that fits into it, how that supports it, or sometimes in some cases sort of goes at odds with it.  

[00:12:09] And if you think about Vice President Harris on the campaign trail, she had a couple signature pieces. Her pearls. She got to be known for her pearls or her converse. And then on Inauguration Day, people turned up in their pearls or their converse. And so, it's this opportunity too for all of us that are watching along to sort of support this person in a way that represents them. It's the same with RBG in her statements, who are our callers. It's like there's this visual legacy that people are crafting and then allows everyone else to participate in it, too, which I think is really special.  

Sarah [00:12:41] Well, and I think it's so interesting to watch their journeys- people who have been in the public eye for a long time. I particularly think with Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama, you can see this sort of journey they took, especially when they hit a spot where you're just like, oh, you're free now. You feel free to [inaudible]. I tell this story all the time that when I worked for Hillary Clinton's campaign, I was in this meeting with a bunch of sort of second wave old guard feminists from like NARAL and Planned Parenthood. And I said, as a young intern, I relate the most to her when she talks about her hair or clothes and struggling with that. And they lit into me. "She should not talk about that. That is not serious.".  

[00:13:18] And you can see her fight that I think over the course of her career. And then she hit this spot, I think particularly in 2016, where she was like, no, I love this and it matters to me. And you could see her kind of find her footing and what she was choosing to wear and letting it be a statement, letting people talk about it, talking about it herself. And I think the same thing about Michelle Obama coming out in those pants on Inauguration Day, just like I'm going to do what I want. Because she was really good, I think, at elevating designers and being very focused on who made the clothes. Are we representing a wide range of places, a wide range of identities? She was so good at that, but it did seem like she clicked into place where it was and what she loved and how she wanted to look and how she felt the most empowered and embodied. It's how it felt to me.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:14:04] So I think Hillary, definitely, if you look back, so much of American political fashion for women, for female candidates, has been about the dark suit to kind of blend in with the guys. [Crosstalk] I'm happy with the boys. We're just still the same. It's like, no, no. And then by 2016, Hillary did embrace fashion and she worked with Anna Wintour and she looked fabulous. There was color all of a sudden on the campaign trail, and there was something to talk about. And that was so exciting to me because I do desperately want fashion and power to go together in a way that is celebrated and not open someone up for criticism, because so often it's, again, like I said, it's like, it's frivolous or it's fun. It's like, no, it's important and it's an opportunity. And then with Michelle Obama, her fashion, I think about her before she was on the campaign trail with her husband and then in the white House, and now certainly after, oh my God. I mean, because I feel like once you got to the white House, she was very aware, as you said, of the designers, she wore the price points. That was also new.  

Sarah [00:15:09] Yeah. High-low. She did a lot of high-lows.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:15:11] That was so important. And because suddenly there are fashion blogs that can document everything she's wearing and serve up a link. And that's the same with royal fashion too. And there is such economic power in that. Because people see those choices, then they run to buy it. And then if you carry it one step further, have you've ever bought anything that anybody famous has ever worn? I bought a pair of J. Crew boots that Meghan Markle wore, and I put them on and they were my Meghan boots. And let me tell you, they felt different. It was fun.  

Sarah [00:15:36] I love it.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:15:38] It's just this moment. And so, Michelle, I think was so smart to dress as she did for those eight years. But now, my God, I love-- because she is totally free now.  

Sarah [00:15:49] She is free.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:15:51] She looks fabulous head to toe in her book tour that went on and on and on and the looks that just kept coming. And I was just like, yes, this is who you are, and this is someone who loves fashion.  

Sarah [00:16:02] I'm going to wear what I want. I want when people would be like, "Are you going to run for president?" I'm like, if you are paying attention to her clothes, you would know the answer to that question already. Hell no, is the answer. Look at her.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:16:13] She's not interested.  

Sarah [00:16:14] She is telling you already she is free. And same with Hillary. I even see her clothes change post the election. You see that there's a lot more comfort. She's not killing herself. You could tell she has a lot more comfort, a lot more pattern, a lot more color. Because her favorite color is yellow for Christ’s sake. Of course, she doesn't want to be in a dark suit all the time. When I was working for her way back in 2007, she had this canary yellow suit. I have a picture of her in. She loves yellow.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:16:41] Oh, I love that!  

Sarah [00:16:42] Yes. And it's like you can just see that she wears what she wants now. And that got to be such a piece of this. Because I think that's the thing. I think people get caught up in when you talk about fashion, they think it means you're always dressing for someone else.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:16:58] Yes, I think there's a difference between personal style, which is very important, and then how you dress for public consumption.  

Sarah [00:17:03] And the people who can put those together, that's a powerful weapon to me.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:17:08] That is and it is very hard. It's rare, but every now and then you'll see a grainy photo of Kate with the kids or something. And I never weigh in on that because that is just her personal style. And that is her moment where she is doing her mom thing. I think it's very different when you get dressed because you are stepping out in front of cameras and people will see you and those pictures will go everywhere. And that is hard. It's just hard and it takes time and it takes resources, takes money. It's a lot of work.  

Sarah [00:17:40] Yeah. And it takes staff. I mean, I don't think people understand the level of work. And I think you're right. It's unfair that there is an increased expectation with women. I'd love to hear what you have to say about our Second Gentleman and his fashion choices. Because he's somebody that's not giving a lot of interviews. He's not wielding policy power to a certain extent, but he's got to make those same choices when he steps out. But the staff to find the designer, schedule it, get the tailoring or figure the high-low option, make sure you're not doing something that is going to be out of stock if you really do want it to be accessible. All those pieces, like there's just so many moving parts.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:18:21] And you know who you're wearing. And if that designer has been embroiled in any controversies lately or if they made any statements. It's a lot of work. And so that's why I'm always, like, we need to honor the effort behind it because it takes so much time. And I think if you look at the Second Gentleman, so dear.  

Sarah [00:18:39] So dear. You would give him a hug. 

Elizabeth Holmes [00:18:41] I did. I was at the White House for the Easter egg roll, and I was with my kids and I was like, guys, come here. I was like, it's the second [inaudible]. So sweet. But nobody's expecting him to look pretty. That's hard too. And so, I just feel like there is this double standard. And as much as I want to celebrate fashion, I also just always want to acknowledge the work it takes.  

[00:19:03] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:19:13] I do think that we are seeing more spaces where men are putting in the work. I think that on red carpets you are seeing much, much more expansive choices. I think these NFL looks and the fits. I'm here for the NFL fits. I think it's very exciting.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:19:30] They've turned that little walk into the stadium into a runway.  

Sarah [00:19:32] They have.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:19:34] And brands have noticed and now they're doing deals.  

Sarah [00:19:37] So what do you think about that? Do you feel like that change is coming.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:19:40] Well, so it definitely started on the red carpet and we started seeing men embrace more than just a black or a navy tux. At first it was like a Navy tux [crosstalk].  

Sarah [00:19:49] So exciting.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:19:51] Yeah, exactly. And now it's trickling down from the red carpet where they are taking more risks. We're getting these traditionally-- I hate this-- "macho guys" football players embracing like Travis in his sequins at the Super Bowl. That can be easy to dismiss as an attention move. But I think actually if you think about it, the ripple effect is pretty profound because it's all the people that are watching. I have two boys, and I think about them watching this professional football player in sequins. And my kids love playing dress up, and they love colors and they love art. And I'm like, I hope that this is seeping into you in some capacity. Now, whether that will actually ever translate into men in politics, I don't know? Do you remember when President Obama wore that tan suit and everybody lost their minds?  

Sarah [00:20:38] Everybody lost it.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:20:40] I was like, come on, stop it. 

Sarah [00:20:42] Guys, I think it will. There was that really fascinating piece on younger politicians and the clothing choices they're making. Did you read that?  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:20:50] I did.  

Sarah [00:20:50] I thought that was so interesting. So, I think you're already seeing that they acknowledge-- I thought the most interesting part is like nobody wants to match. They don't want to wear a suit at all.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:20:59] No. Well, also we live in a hyper visual time? It's not just cable news, it's Instagram. It's TikTok. You are what you present to the world now. It's not just a photograph from the cover of a newspaper, right? You're on people's screens. And if you can't catch their attention with your words, then maybe use your clothes.  

Sarah [00:21:18] Yeah. Well, and I think the other aspect of this is what I think is so interesting in that space. And I think you saw it a little bit in that article about the younger politicians, which tells me it's prolific among younger generations. And that means it will spread, it will infect the celebrities, it will infect the politicians- which is they are way more aware and consumed and educated about where the clothing comes from. Is it brand new? Is it fast fashion? Is it thrifted? And the quality of the clothing. I feel like there is an increased conversation, which is why I always like the royal family, because they might be recommending you to buy stuff, but you best believe that it is high quality. I bought one of those, when Kate wore the pink Pharrell sweater. The Campbell sweater. I buy those now. They're such good quality. And I think like that to me is a really interesting place, that it's almost like there's a symbiotic relationship between the consumer and these public figures that are having this conversation about not only how does it look, but how is it made well?  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:22:24] And how many times can you wear it? Because that's so important. I'm guilty of this when I was in my 20s. You buy something at H&M and throw it out kind of thing. I mean, I didn't throw it out, but you don't wear it that often. And so, to see somebody like Kate or Megan pull from their closet something that fashion bloggers have documented they wore many times. It sounds so silly-- 

Sarah [00:22:46] I had to sit down the first time that happened. I grew up in the 90s. That did not happen. Never. 

Elizabeth Holmes [00:22:51] It did not happen. But it reminds you that these are real people with real closets and they have clothes that they love. And, yes, you should wear them many times.  

Sarah [00:22:59] Well, I remember reading that Jackie did that when she was in the White House. She'd worn that pink suit from the assassination, like John's birthday party a few days earlier. I remember reading that.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:23:09] Princess Diana was a famous repeater, but because the internet didn't exist back then, nobody was chronicling it. So, it didn't hit in the same way. And then suddenly we're all, again, in this hyper visual age where we're all shopping for occasions and to put up our album on Facebook or whatever in the late 90s and early 2000s and then suddenly you can't wear something more than once. But I think that this kind of documentation of fashion, suddenly it's come back around. The pendulum has swung where it's like, okay, no, Kate has worn this coat four times or six times or whatever. It's a favorite of hers. And then suddenly that helps the brand, that she was wearing because suddenly it's worthy of all these times. And then it just reminds you to be like a responsible consumer.  

Sarah [00:23:50] Right. Okay. Well, you're not the only one-- since you brought up Megan, you're not the only one who as an American had some interest in the royal family and then came back and has straddled both of these spaces. What do you see in her choices? And I think at this point, she is speaking more than other members of the royal family. Obviously, she has taken troll of her narrative way more than other members. What do you see in her choices from the beginning that you're, like, the signs were always there. And more recently.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:24:18] Well, the thing about Meghan... So, I wrote a book, HRH.  

Sarah [00:24:21] I love it. It's on my shelf.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:24:22] It's about the queen's fashion, Diana's fashion, Kate and then Meghan's fashion. And there's a section on each of them. And the thing that sets Meghan apart from that group is that she came to the royal family into this and then spotlight knowing the language of fashion. She had been on television; she had worked with costume designers. It's out there. She gave interviews about the importance of colors and fit and choices of her characters clothing. So, she knew what clothing could say. And so, you saw her hit the ground running with this very-- it wasn't all that different from how regular women dress, but it was very different for the royal conversation. She did things like wear trousers to daytime engagements, which sounds absurd because of course, every woman everywhere wears pants all the time. And yet we hadn't seen it. And so, it felt new and novel. And it was it was groundbreaking in a lot of ways.  

[00:25:16] And you saw her, though, as her royal tenure went on, also try and match her personal style with the expectations of the royal family and the public and the criticism of the media, which just got totally out of control. And now what I think we're seeing from her, it was interesting after 2020 when they step down as senior working royals, we didn't see a lot of them. And then when we did see her, she was in some very high fashion stuff. Which, listen, she knows fashion. She has relationships with brands. I think she truly loves fashion. But now we've sort of seen the pendulum kind of finding its middle point with the Invictus Games last year. She was back to wearing Banana Republic or J. Crew. And you better believe I bought that cardigan that she was wearing. I add to cart so fast.  

Sarah [00:26:03] She's like, I'm going buy this for myself before I tell you all about it. Best believe that.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:26:05] Exactly. I did. I bought it before I shared it. So, I feel like she's finding her place, the criticism that can come from one's appearance and especially Meghan, a biracial woman in an overwhelmingly white, royal world, it was awful. I mean, her appearance was used against her in the worst ways and driven by a racist tabloid media in Britain that I don't think we as Americans can fully understand because we don't have that same-- I mean, we have awful media [inaudible]. But I think I'm so happy because when I see Meghan now in her appearances, I see her. I see so much of her in them. And the fact that she's able to, like you said, mix personal style and public outings in such a way that feels very authentic. That's when fashion is best. Not when you're trying to wear a costume or play a part, but when you're you with thought and intention behind your choices.  

Sarah [00:27:06] Yeah. You know when you see it, even if you don't care about fashion. You know when somebody is doing it and you're like, oh, okay.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:27:13] So when I moved from New York to California, I moved to Silicon Valley and suddenly I was like surrounded by hoodies. And people were like, it doesn't matter fashion-wise. I was like, you made a choice with that hoodie. That's a choice. Everybody gets dressed every day.  

Sarah [00:27:25] Everybody's doing it. I don't care what it, is if everybody's doing it, something happening?  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:27:29] Yes, and you're doing it for a reason. And you can claim it's comfort or whatever. But, listen, you're doing it for a reason and it's to look laid back and it's to fit in with the crowd and it's to be part of the tech world. And then I moved down to Los Angeles and suddenly everybody's a different vibe. And I was like, this is so fascinating because we all sort of play-- and then I go back and visit DC and I'm like, everybody's back in suits and ties and it's more formal. We all make the choice to get dressed every morning. Nobody's running around naked.  

Sarah [00:27:57] No. And the clothing communicates.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:28:00] It does. It sure does.  

Sarah [00:28:01] So what do you think is the most interesting story, either in fashion generally or the royal family right now? What are you really paying close attention to?  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:28:09] Well, I was hoping to talk quickly about Nikki Haley because I think she has a very interesting approach on the campaign trail. And I wrote a newsletter in my Substack about her recently because we've seen so few viable female presidential candidates. And doing so with a traditionally "feminine esthetic" is really noteworthy to me. And she's out there on the debate stage wearing a skirt or a dress. And it's like, wow, that should not be news. But, again, there--  

Sarah [00:28:38] There are no dark suits for her.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:28:39] No. If you're looking for someone who's not Trump, your eye goes right to her because she's right there and she's wearing pearls. She's wearing soft colors. She's wearing these very traditional silhouettes, and she's not leaning away from color or interesting fabrics and things like that. And part of that makes my heart sing because I'm like, yes, I want to see more women wear clothes that they like when they're reaching for the highest office in the land kind of thing. But it also creates this tension between her policies. Because she's got these very harsh and anti-everything stances, and suddenly she's delivering it in a dress. And so, you as a viewer it's this weird-- suddenly I'm thinking about the trad wife trend on TikTok and you're like, wait, is this a throwback or are you pushing the needle forward? Are we going back a couple steps?  

[00:29:33] So it's been a very interesting thing to watch her on the campaign trail. And then in this last dash with the Iowa caucus in the New Hampshire primary, she started wearing sweaters. Again, not a big deal. I'm wearing a sweater right now. But you're like, oh, when have I seen a woman on the campaign trail wear a statement sweater? And what does that mean? And it's soft and cozy and approachable. And you know what? That's what voters in Iowa are wearing. That's what voters in New Hampshire are wearing. And so, these choices take on these meanings that are just this fascinating play between what they're saying and what they're wearing and how voters then write it in their head to be like, "Do I like her or not? What's going on?" And I hope we see more women experiment with fashion and power and across the entire political spectrum, because there's a lot there and there's a lot of progress that still needs to be made.  

Sarah [00:30:24] A wonder a lot with her is I think she's dressing for herself. I think she's definitely dressing for the voters, knowing that she's going to be looked at and perceived. But I also think she's dressing for Donald Trump.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:30:33] He comments on it.  

Sarah [00:30:34] Yeah, exactly. Lest you forget that I'm a woman, which upsets you. Let me make sure and wear these dresses and these skirts. There's a part of me that thinks she's poking just a little bit at him.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:30:47] Well, what did he say on New Hampshire?  

Sarah [00:30:48] It wasn't a very nice dress, I think?  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:30:50] The fancy dress is probably not that fancy.  

Sarah [00:30:52] Yeah, not that expensive.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:30:53] It's not that expensive. And I looked into it and he's right. So, she tends to wear this label called Teri Jon, and it's got this very Oscar de la Renta esthetic. It's very kind of mother of the bride, it's colorful, but it's not stiff fabric.  

Sarah [00:31:10] Yes, embroidery, applique.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:31:10] She has a full skirt. She has some Jacquard, it's very ladylike.  

Sarah [00:31:14] Yeah.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:31:14] And it's this Oscar esthetic. And it's not cheap. It's several hundred dollars for a dress, but it's not like several thousand dollars for a dress. And so, she's walking this line because she's playing this part. But if anyone's really going to look into it, she's not going to look like she's just spending money on clothes right and left. So, it feels kind of responsible. It's this very interesting mix that she's walking in. She's worn this brand Teri Jon for a long time. And I think that's part of her image. It's just like I'm presenting like a lady who lunches. But it's at a more accessible price point and I'm a lady. It's fascinating. And the fact that Trump comments on it, like he's taken the bait and she's offering it, it's just...  

Sarah [00:31:56] So easy. He's such a chump. I think the in-between price point too is a very important point when you're talking about female politicians, because these are not people who are getting sent clothes for free. And even if they were, they could not accept them because that would be a donation. I think that that's what's really hard to understand. It's one thing if you're the royal family and you have a lot of resources and a lot of staff, but when you're a female politician and you have to decide-- again, if you're Hillary Clinton, you've got the money to figure out and do the suits and the white suits and Anna Wintour’s help. That's great. But Nikki Haley is not independently wealthy. She just isn't. Her husband is deployed. I think that that's the other really difficult part, is just the expense. And if even if you found a brand you loved and you thought we would be a great partnership, you can't partner with them as a-- that's not allowed.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:32:46] In 2008, I covered the presidential campaign, which is like a lifetime ago when I was on the trail with John McCain and then Sarah Palin. And if you remember, that was, again, a lifetime ago. People made a huge fuss over the makeover that she went through and then Neiman Marcus [inaudible] and they were trying to tally up her clothes and things like that. And you're exactly right. The logistics and the expenses of fashion cannot be overstated. And also hauling all these clothes around on the campaign trail, when they're in a suitcase, you need someone to steam that dress. I mean, it's a lot. It was a couple cycles ago suddenly it came out that a bunch of members of Congress were doing Rent the Runway. Do you remember this? And I was like, of course, you should. Because that's like a more financially responsible or accessible way to wear different clothes.  

Sarah [00:33:35] News broadcasters and politicians, that's perfect for them.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:33:39] Yeah. Wear those bright color dresses and then send it back. So, for new it's really the challenge is immense.  

Sarah [00:33:44] Well, I'm so glad you said ladies who lunch, because the fashion I'm obsessed with right now is the Swans Ryan Murphy's new show. Are you watching? 

Elizabeth Holmes [00:33:52] It's so good. It's on my list. But I'm so behind on my TV.  

Sarah [00:33:55] Oh my God, it's so beautiful. I mean, you could watch it on [inaudible] but I love the role fashion plays. They just did the black and white ball last night, so you got to see them come in with their covers and rip them off and their masquerade balls. It's the ladies who lunch style and how the different characters are sort of using those choices. Highly recommend.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:34:17] That's so good. Well, so there's a show coming up. My friend Amy Chozick has a show called Girls on the Bus, which is about female reporters.  

Sarah [00:34:24] Oh, fun!  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:34:24] She covered Hillary for many years, and then she wrote a memoir, and then now has spun off a chapter of that into-- like, made a TV show. [crosstalk]. And I was watching it for the campaign trail style because it's so-- it comes out in March. But it's so interesting to think about the ways in which you can define a character based on what they wear. And, essentially, I would imagine in this [inaudible] too, it's like they're all kind of the same, but they're all very different.  

Sarah [00:34:51] Very different. Their money comes from different places.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:34:53] Exactly. And the ways in which people use-- the costume designers very cleverly sort of craft that. It's an art. Styling is an art. I love it.  

Sarah [00:35:02] And thank you for giving it the seriousness that it deserves. That's why I'm such a big fan of yours. And we love you here on Pantsuit Politics.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:35:09] It's so serious and fun. 

Sarah [00:35:12] And fun! That's why I love it.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:35:13] It can be both.  

Sarah [00:35:13] It's both things, guys. It's both things at the same time.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:35:16] Two things can be true. I believe that so deeply. Yes.  

Sarah [00:35:20] Thank you so much.  

Elizabeth Holmes [00:35:21] Thanks for having me.  

[00:35:22] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:35:31] Thank you so much to Sarah and Elizabeth for that discussion. We will be back in your ears on Friday for our last regular Friday episode before we begin our limited run return of The Nuanced Life. And there is plenty to talk about this week in the realm of politics. Join us tomorrow night, Thursday, May 30th for our kickoff event, The Nuanced Life Live. Or grab a ticket today so you can watch it back later at your convenience. Until Friday, have the best week available to you.  

[00:35:56] Music Interlude. 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling.   Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

Alise NappComment