The Impending Trump Verdict and a Path Forward for Mental Health

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • The Criminal Trial of Former President Donald J. Trump

  • Mental Health as Content with Jacey Verdicchio

  • Outside of Politics: Alexa Etiquette

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EPISODE RESOURCES

Join us on May 30th for The Nuanced Life Live to kick off our summer series with a virtual workshop on work-life balance.

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] Thank you for joining us today. This week, both the prosecution and defense wrapped up in the Trump trial in New York. Next week they will make closing arguments and the jury will get the case. So today we're going to talk about the potential outcomes here and just how we're thinking about them and preparing for them every time we discuss this. Sarah, you say, "I think we're not ready."  

Sarah [00:00:51] No one's ready.  

Beth [00:00:51] And so, we're going to try to get ready today best we can. Then we're going to continue our conversation about mental health that we've been having over a period of years now. Since the pandemic, as more research comes out about social media and teens and mental health, we've been trying to understand what's going on here and think about what we can learn from it. After our last episode, we received a very insightful email from our listener, Jesse, who is a therapist and someone we've known for a long time. And we thought, okay, Jesse can help us take the next step here. So, she joins us today for what was, for me, a very therapeutic conversation about social media and mental health and parenting and just personing. And when we need to phone a friend for help and when we need to phone a professional for help. So really looking forward to sharing that with you. And then Outside of Politics, the two of us, like many of you, have Amazon Alexa in our homes. And while the use of an Amazon Alexa is kind of a new frontier in the long arc of history, we've had them long enough now that we're recognizing there's some etiquette that we need to discuss. So today Outside of Politics, Alexa etiquette is coming your way.  

Sarah [00:02:07] But, first, we've been telling you all about the revival of our old podcast, The Nuanced Life. This summer, every Friday, you will get a special episode of The Nuanced Life here in the Pantsuit Politics feed. We've already recorded several of the episodes. We've talked about breastfeeding. We've talked about church and family and conflicts around faith. We've talked about transitioning to a new career. I'm going to interview my grandmother. There's lots of exciting content coming up inside this revival of The Nuanced Life. And to get a taste of what we'll be doing over there, we're going to have a special live ticketed event on May 30th. It'll be The Nuanced Life live. We're going to talk about work life balance and take your questions in real time. And we hope all of you will join us over at that live event on May 30th.  

Beth [00:02:55] Next up, we're going to talk about the criminal trial of the former president and how it might end.  

[00:03:01] Music Interlude.  

[00:03:11] Okay, Sarah, we had a very spirited discussion with former ambassador Norm Eisen about what the courtroom feels like in New York. I have been following him on X. He continues to provide very spirited commentary about what's happened. And this week the prosecution rested its case, turned it over to the defense. The defense called two witnesses. One was basically to get a document in. The other was an attorney meant to damage the credibility of Michael Cohen. And he was a very provocative witness who upset the judge very, very much. And then that was it.  

Sarah [00:03:52] Yeah. He was giving side eye. I don't think the judge liked it. I think he sighed, maybe rolled his eyes- not acceptable. 

Beth [00:03:56] He said Jesus at one point when the judge sustained an objection.  

Sarah [00:04:00] This is not a happy, fun time. This is the court of law. My father came up to me with a little league game. And he was like it's going to be a hung jury. They really, really massacred Michael Cohen. Now, we're not going to get into that conversation. I exercised that demon. And had some very raw reflections and emotions over on our More to Say. If you would like to hear me cuss about this conversation I had with my father at the little league game, you're can head to our premium channel. But that is definitely what conservative media is saying, that this guy came on, that they cut Michael Cohen down to size, and they are selling a hung jury as a victory. I can tell you that is what's happening over with Sean Hannity and France.  

Beth [00:04:44] And, look, the prosecution told the jury from the beginning, you're not going to like Michael Cohen. You're not going to want Michael Cohen to be your neighbor. This man has been convicted of federal crimes and has served time. He is out on his podcast every day, making money off this whole ordeal. He's not a good guy. There are no good guys here. This is not a hero-villain kind of trial. I think every time I think about Michael Cohen of The Last Midnight from Into the Woods, where she sings, "You're all liars and thieves like his father. Like his son will be, too. Oh, why bother? You'll just do what you do." That's what I think about when I think about everybody surrounding Donald Trump.  

Sarah [00:05:25] I don't know, I have a real redemptive arc in my head for Michael Cohen. Thanks largely to this piece in The New York Times wrote about his friendship with Rosie O'Donnell that I talked about on The Good News Brief. Like, I do think that he did a good job of just owning it. It wasn't just the prosecution that said Michael Cohen did terrible things. Michael Cohen said, "I did terrible things." And I just think there's an integrity to that. That he kept his cool, that he said, "Yeah, I stole money. Yep, that's what I did," and owned it and sat there and faced it. I don't know, I got some respect for that. And not just because he's friends with Rosie O'Donnell right now, who I love. And we will put the link to that story in the show notes, because it is quite a journey through the human heart.  

Beth [00:06:09] I'm glad that he has seemed to testify truthfully, but I understand why it's difficult to accept that it's truthful testimony, especially depending on where you start in this whole matter. His track record is not good. And it is undermining to the integrity of the process for him to be ripping Trump constantly, publicly, while he is a witness. No one here has acted as I wish them to behave. And I want to say about Judge Marshawn getting very angry with Castelo. That is not an ego maniacal complaint that the judge has. When a witness, especially a witness who is a lawyer, behaves that way on the stand, it disrespects the jury, it disrespects the proceeding, it increases the likelihood of a mistrial, which would mean that a whole lot of people's time was wasted and a whole lot of money was wasted. A whole lot of taxpayer dollars were wasted. The judge is trying to make sure that this trial actually wraps up, that this is the one trial of this matter that is conducted as fairly as possible, in compliance with all of the rules, so that at the end of the day, whatever happens-- and that can be protective of the defendant too. Whatever happens, the appellate court has a clean record to look at, and everybody can move on with their lives. So that's why I think some of the reporting on this has made the judge sound a little unhinged when he was correctly saying to this witness, your conduct is contemptuous and you must stop it.  

Sarah [00:07:46] Yeah, I have no problem with that. And even to your point about Michael Cohen doing his podcast, I don't know, I felt like there was a little bit of a Pantsuit Politics vibe to both him and Stormy Daniels being like, "No, I don't like him. You wouldn't either." I do think that we have a perception that no one really believes that everybody's supposed to be perfectly neutral. Whereas, I do appreciate--this is what we try to do on the show-- this is where I'm at, I'm just going to be honest with you. When she was like, ""Yeah, I wanted him to be punished for what he did to me, wouldn't you?" I don't know. I think that there's something about just owning that and being transparent about it. I'm not always a fan of transparency. I've made my case against C-Span at different points in this podcast. But I just think that with the legal system and where we're at, this felt like an evolution and a really interesting way.  

[00:08:34] And what I think people aren't ready for is that it could work. I think we just have this perception that Donald Trump is bigger than everything, bigger than every process and every institution, and that he's still not a citizen under the rule of law. And so just him sitting in court, while also supposed to be running for president, being subjected to testimony he doesn't want to hear, and being effectively forced to behave, he does seem to have adjusted his behavior ever so slightly because the judge was like, I will put you in jail. I don't know if people aren't watching, because there aren't cameras in the courtroom, that's part of it that's kept people sort of unplugged. But we're going to have a verdict, like a real enforceable verdict. It's going to happen in like the next week or two. I just don't know if everybody knows that or realizes that or understands that.  

Beth [00:09:35] I think something has to be shifting in Donald Trump for him to not have testified here. Because he always believes that he is the best advocate for his cause. Always. He has-- I'm sure, against the advice of lawyers-- testified in the Eugene Carroll matter because he thinks that he tells his story better than anyone else. So, to me, it was a very big deal that he did not take the stand. It tells me that he recognizes that there is a gravity to this case as much as he wants to say there isn't.  

Sarah [00:10:06] Well, and I think the whole how he sits silently and closes his eyes and not testifying, to me, he's understanding that he needs to absorb and dissipate as much of the energy around this, which is not his instinct. His instinct is always to grab attention, make it bigger. And it is interesting to me that he sits there, sometimes nods off because he's closing his eyes. It's almost like he's trying to project, this is nothing. This is nothing to me. I didn't do it. This is not a big deal. I don't know if it will work, but it is interesting that he's taken that different approach.  

Beth [00:10:46] So next week, the prosecution defense will make their closing arguments. There'll be jury instructions. There has been a motion from the defense for the judge to take this out of the hands of the jury and just decide the case as a matter of law. I think that is extremely unlikely, but the judge will dispose of that motion. There will probably be other motions, and then the jury will take it. And there are three potential outcomes. There is an acquittal. As your dad anticipates, a hung jury. And the conviction. And that's it. We're going to get one of those three decisions very soon.  

Sarah [00:11:19] What's so funny to me is the hung jury is not an acquittal. I don't understand why they are passing it off as a victory. He would have to go to trial again.  

Beth [00:11:29] If the prosecution decided to retry it.  

Sarah [00:11:32] Right. If the prosecution decided to retry it, which I would imagine they would, but maybe not. When I was talking to my dad, I said, "But he did it." And his response was, "Yeah, but it was 11 years ago." Like, what? That's an interesting defense. That isn't an actual legal defense, but that was it. It was like, well, maybe he did, but who cares at this point? And I do wonder if that's the spin. So, what if I paid off a porn star not to tell her story? I cannot stop thinking about Ezra Klein saying apologizing is weakness. Apologizing is admitting you've done something wrong. Like, that's the new post-Trump reality. And so, always you have to just say, yeah, I did it. So what? Yeah, I did it. So what?  

Beth [00:12:24] But here's the thing. The context for which he is criminally charged was not 11 years ago. And he will not be convicted for paying off a porn star. If he is convicted, it will be for violating election law. It will be for deceiving voters. It will be for having lied about that, and covered it up so that the voting public could not understand what was happening. It's not the sex that he is on trial for here. It is what happened around the 2016 election, specifically after the Access Hollywood tape, where he decided he could not afford one more of these. The election was on the line and he could not have one more of these come out.  

Sarah [00:13:05] Yeah, and I hope they play that tape. I hope that in the closing arguments they're, like, put yourself back and remember what an earthquake this recording was. Because he told us who he was the whole time. And then we had him saying it out loud. I will never as long as I live forget Lin-Manuel Miranda, who is hosting Saturday Night Live, walking down that hallway and stopping next to the picture of Donald Trump from when he hosted and singing-  

SNL Clip: Lin-Manuel Miranda [00:13:33] [Singing] Never going to be president, no. Never going to be president, no. 

Sarah [00:13:39] After the Access Hollywood tape. I will never as long as I live forget that moment, because that's what it felt like. It felt like we're done. I mean, people were so close to turning on him. But, again, the Republican Party never takes its moment to to be done with this man. But it was such an earthquake. Of course, he thought, I cannot handle one more.  

Beth [00:14:07] I think it's interesting to present a hung jury as a victory. I think it's really sad in reflecting the fact that conservative media from the beginning has been preparing people for the potential outcomes here by saying because this is in New York, he cannot get a fair trial. And I think that is so damaging to our sense of national identity, to the justice system, to everything that the jury system is supposed to represent. If we fundamentally believe there are places in this country where you cannot get a fair jury, we're lost, we're absolutely lost. So, I think that is the most destructive approach. And then as a person who cares a lot about the rights of criminal defendants and spends a lot of my life energy thinking about how to improve that system, a hung jury is important. It's important that we have a mechanism to say, if every single person is not convinced beyond reasonable doubt, we don't rob someone of their liberty. And the stakes here are just too high to play with it the way that the Sean Hannitys of the world are playing with it. You know what I mean?  

Sarah [00:15:17] Well, it's never stopped him before, Beth.  

Beth [00:15:19] It's true that he will not be exonerated if it's a hung jury, because that means that some people were convinced and some were not. But it does mean that we say as a society, it's not good enough to intrude on your liberty if anybody remained unconvinced. So, it's just really important that this is handled with some maturity. And we're kind of striking out there right now.  

Sarah [00:15:46] Yeah, I don't. Don’t hold your breath.  

Beth [00:15:49] So you have said several times that you think he will be convicted and that we're not ready for that.  

Sarah [00:15:54] I definitely think that is the scenario of the three that we are least prepared for. I think most people just tell themselves he's never going to be held responsible for anything. And expect either an acquittal or a hung jury, and they are not prepared for a court saying you are guilty and we are going to sentence you to punishment. I just don't think people are. I'm not ready. I'm not ready for what that will mean. I think that in the back of my head, this is what I've always thought. I've always thought this will happen and people will be shaken out of their stupor and remember who this man is before the presidential election. We will get hard input into our brains this could be it. Because I told Nicholas, sometimes I think all that polling that puts him up, I think a lot of times the polling is people's opportunity to just express their frustration. And they do that through Donald Trump. They just go, "I want to I want to convey right now that I'm unhappy." We talk about this a lot in that more to say from yesterday. I don't like the vibe and I want to express my distaste with the vibe. And he is a great vehicle for that. But at a certain point, rubber has to hit the road and we are all going to have to accept that we are voting for who will be president for the next four years in the face of war in Europe, war in the Middle East, billions of dollars being rolled out across the country in infrastructure investment, demographic change, migrant crisis. All these things.  

Beth [00:17:29] Weather events that require federal aid.  

Sarah [00:17:32] Yeah, we're just going to have to face that. And we're going to have to face that one of the choices is the guy that just got found guilty for election finance violations. So, I don't know. 

Beth [00:17:42] When the judge in this case was explaining to Donald Trump that he did not want to put him in jail for contempt of court but would if he had to, and you started seeing pieces about like the Secret Service making preparations to deal with him in a cell. I thought, I don't know what we're doing here. How is this happening?  

Sarah [00:18:07] How did we get here?  

Beth [00:18:10] That's one of two moments that have really been gripping for me. The other is the way that congressional Republicans, including the speaker of the House, have spent days at this trial with him. That it has been a campaign event. That they're making cameos the way they would on the trail. And I thought what brought this home better than anything else was Saturday Night Live. Again, they have a way when big things happen of crystallizing them and it's so memorable. James Austin Johnson, who plays Donald Trump for SNL, who I think is incredible, talked about these Republicans coming to the trial in a way that crystallized it better than I think anyone else can.  

SNL Clip: James Austin Johnson [00:18:55] But I have invited a few names from my short bus-- I mean, my short list-- to come to court and do a little dance for me. They're supposed to be running the country, but instead they're sitting in porn court hoping I'll smile at them. It's really sad. It's very sad.  

Sarah [00:19:10] Yeah, that is the most infuriating part to me because I thought, oh, here we go. This is the same pattern. He pushes us into new territory where everybody looks around and says, how did we get here? And they have 30 seconds of "Ugh," and then they rush to his defense and legitimize everything. It happens every time. It happened with the Access Hollywood tape. It happened with the election denial. It happened with the racist comments around Charleston. It happened with the telling people to inject bleach. It happened with both impeachments. Every single time they do this. They come in and they say, it's okay, he's not that bad. See, we're here. And it's so infuriating. And if it works again, it's so hard to stomach. It is so hard to stomach, to watch them legitimize his norm-shredding, undemocratic behavior.  

Beth [00:20:13] And in the process, so degrade the Republican Party that you have no comfort that if Donald Trump exits the scene, we'll get back on track. We'll have a party filled with people who maybe we disagree with about a lot of things, but who we trust to be partners; who we trust to say, like, we are all here working to make the country better. We all believe in a better future for this country. We all believe in what this country is supposed to be about, the vision of this country. And I know that a lot of Republicans don't trust Democrats as that governing partner. And that is a lot of how we got here. I hope that what feels like we are really circling the drain around with this case can inspire all of us to do some soul searching about how did this happen? How is this where we are right now?  

Sarah [00:21:05] With Secret Service analyzing how to protect a presidential candidate from jail. Because I think that might be the reality. He might have to run from prison. I mean, am I wrong here? Is that not a reality we could face, depending on the length of the appeal?  

Beth [00:21:25] It is on the table, for sure.  

Sarah [00:21:27] It is on the table that we will face a candidate in prison in November. I don't think people are ready for that.  

Beth [00:21:36] Yeah. It takes my breath away. It hurts. It's sad. It's so sad.  

Sarah [00:21:40] It's so sad. I think a lot as he's running again about when he was sworn in in 2016. And I've never watched it and I never will. And I tear up just thinking about it because I cared a great deal about the presidency. It's been a fascination for my entire life. And I had to go stand in the grass in January and put my feet on the ground and just take a minute, just because I didn't want to face the reality that this person who doesn't care about our country and doesn't care about the job and has no sense of the honor it is to be president of the United States. And it's like I kind of keep that in a box because I still really can't think about it.  

Beth [00:22:22] And what is triply quadruple sad, is that there are people who will stand for some of his ideas, who do care about the country. There are people who think we should cut corporate tax rates even more, who care about the Constitution, and about running with integrity and holding the office as a role model for the country and as a partner to other nations on the world stage. There are people who are very, very conservative, who can ethically hold this office. And it still comes back to this one. And that makes me sick. I'm certain this is not the last conversation we'll have about this. We will come back next week and process whatever the outcomes are. And for today, we are going to shift gears to talking about mental health, which feels just like a two-degree gear shift maybe. We are thrilled to be joined by Jacey Verdicchio, a psychotherapist from Charleston, South Carolina. She specializes in supporting people through the perinatal period, which turns out to be extremely relevant to the conversation that we wanted to have. She also is a writer, a former podcaster. She is just a really lovely person, and I think you'll find her insights valuable. I know that I have, I've been thinking about this conversation since we recorded it. So delighted to share Jacey Verdicchio's insights with all of you.  

[00:23:53] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:24:04] Jacey Verdicchio, thank you so much for coming on Pantsuit Politics.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:24:07] Thank you so much for having me.  

Sarah [00:24:09] I was so excited when you emailed us. Well, excited is probably not the right word-- relieved. When we did an episode a while back about mental health and teenagers and the influence of social media. And you were not the only therapist or mental health professional, but we've known you for a long time. So, it meant a lot when you emailed and said, yes, this is what's happening. There is a lot of identification. I'm going to read your own words back to you. I hope that's okay, because I thought this was really just like the most beautiful way to put it. You said, "A person may have some OCD behaviors or low moods or difficulty focusing, but are these symptoms significantly interfering with that person's work, relationships, and daily living? To suggest that a higher than zero level of distress is abnormal, is to pathologize the human experience and undermine psychological resilience." That's good. I had to sit with that email for a minute.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:25:10] Yeah, I love talking about this topic in particular, because as much as the growing awareness of mental health concerns and attention for treatment for mental health conditions is wonderful and important and we love to see that, we also don't want to pathologize things that are just part of being human.  

Sarah [00:25:33] And that's why we emailed you back immediately, because there seems to be gaining some understanding and some language. The New York Times did this big piece and they called it Prevalence Inflation. That our society has become so saturated with discussions of mental health that young people may interpret mild, transient suffering as symptoms of a medical disorder. And I thought, well, that's what Jacey was talking about. So, we need to email her and say, "Can you come back and talk about this with us in a more sort of expansive way?" Because I also don't think it's just young people doing this.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:26:04] No, you're right about that. I would agree. We've probably all been in situations or conversations like that or even done it ourselves, where you've been hearing snippets of something or like you've read a list of symptoms somewhere, and then you start to either get in your own head about it or it becomes part of the dialog where it feels like, oh, is that named thing that I'm hearing about all the time what I'm experiencing?  

Beth [00:26:30] It seems hard because this to me is not like a light switch question. Like a, yes, we have content about mental health or no we don't. But more like what is a healthy way to engage with all this conversation about mental health in the zeitgeist? The study that kicked off that prevalence inflation article in the New York Times, a piece in The Atlantic, a piece in Forbes-- it's everywhere right now. I looked at the abstract for it today. And it starts off by saying there's been a benefit here because some people who never would have received care for legitimately diagnosable, treatable, sometimes quite serious disorders are getting that now. And we are seeing some over identification, some self-diagnosis that's not particularly healthy. And I wanted to ask you about how you interact with people on the topic of using social media to feel a sense of community around their mental health.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:27:33] Yeah, that's a great question. So, I work with women who are either pregnant, postpartum somewhere in that kind of perinatal period. So, I'm often telling them if they can, to avoid social media as much as possible for all of the kind of new mom reasons. And there's just a whole another layer of things there. But as far as just kind of more general population, if you're able to find that sense of being seen, like, look, me too. And that feels validating for you in a way that maybe you aren't getting that in your local community or you've just never been able to have that experience. So that is a valuable experience. However, you probably don't want to stop there. Because being if you're just putting a magnifying glass on the problem, so to speak, if you're just putting a magnifying glass on this cluster of symptoms that I identify with, then that's where you are. You're identifying with symptoms and you're not moving further beyond that. Now, I know that there can also be benefit in social media for finding ways to alleviate some of those symptoms too. And that can be helpful as well.  

[00:28:56] But I think that it is important to understand where you're putting that magnifying glass. And are you finding community around the suffering, or are you taking that one step further and trying to also find a source of support, community, whatever it is around how to maybe find some relief from some of those symptoms or how to move beyond that. And, also, I think that's why it's important too to really be careful about what information you're taking as like, yes, this is what I should do next. This should be my next step. Because there can be-- as you all have talked about many times before, the quality of information on social media has. There's a wide range, right? So, if you're taking something as important as mental health condition and you're using something that may or may not be like evidence-based or you don't know the source of it, that's something to be just really kind of eyes wide open and proceed with caution about.  

Sarah [00:29:57] Well, and it's so interesting to me because it feels like we wanted to destigmatize mental health. We wanted to destigmatize therapy and getting treatment. We always use this language of, like, we want to treat it just like any other health condition, right? That you're comfortable explaining your symptoms, that you're comfortable reaching out to a professional. And we didn't keep all the lessons we learned from the internet and physical problems. We don't go to Doctor Google because the search results re-word older results. They re-word popular results. That we have people who create content around health that might not be health experts. I feel like we did learn some of that with regards to just physical conditions. And then when we decided to start pushing ourselves in directions with mental health, it's like we didn't keep any of those lessons that the algorithm is going to say, "You're magnifying glass is on symptoms. Great. Let's just stay there. That's what you like. That's what you engaged with. So, I will just feed you a mountain of that." And the Atlantic piece Beth was describing, I love they call it therapy medium. Non-expert 1 to 1 million broadcast about mental health for the benefit of an audience of strangers. And I just feel like we didn't bridge the gap that we were trying to bridge in a lot of ways between physical problems and mental problems.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:31:20] Yes, that's absolutely right. It would be great to be able to have that same sense of not going to Doctor Google. Same thing for mental health. I also wanted to just say-- and this is a problem without a solution. But I understand also that accessing care is really challenging. So even if you would love to be in individual therapy or find a therapist that was right for you, it could be really hard to do that. You might be hitting a long wait list. You might not be able to find someone that takes your insurance. There are a lot of barriers too. So, I think that's part of what we're seeing as far as so many people looking for that help online, because there may be a gap in what they can get as far as like an expert level of care personalized to them, versus if you're looking to fill that gap somehow. Then if you can find that online in some way, then I understand. That makes sense. And there are some good things out there that people can find too. I don't mean to say that there's not quality information out there as well.  

Beth [00:32:28] So it seems like some of where the prevalence inflation critique is coming from are programs intended to address that issue. So, schools doing mindfulness programs, social emotional learning, talking to the broad audience about learning to name your emotions, learning to cope with your emotions, strategies for managing stress. And the study out of the UK indicates that the results of those programs are pretty mixed and, in some cases, harmful. Now reading about it, I have a lot of questions about how you isolate variables when you're studying the effects of programs like these. I think it's really tricky. I had a group of five 13-year-old girls at my house today, and I told them that I was talking with you and what we were talking about, and I said, "I wonder what you all think about this. Do you think that with all of the SEL that you've had and all of the social media influence around mental health, that people your age are quick to diagnose themselves?".  

[00:33:32] And immediately they're all like, "Yes, it's ridiculous. It's so annoying. People who have no problems at all except a hard day say they have such and such." Anxiety and depression came up a lot in this conversation. But then I said, "Do you think that the SEL programs, the social emotional learning that you've done at school has been valuable to you? Did you like being part of the Leader in Me? Do you think that the sessions you all have with your counselors are helpful?" And they all said, "Yes, I love that. Very positive." So, again, it just feels like, how do we find the sweet spot on providing this education? Destigmatizing giving them vocabulary without (for some students) it pushing them into places that maybe they wouldn't have gone that aren't particularly constructive.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:34:21] That is the sweet spot, isn't it? Trying to find that balance. And I don't know a lot about the ins and outs of what some of the social emotional learning programs are teaching per se. But I think what I try to do, even just in my own work with individual clients sometimes is, like Sarah mentioned before, destigmatizing mental health conditions and mental health disorders. I think there's also a level of psychoeducation that needs to happen around maybe not destigmatizing, but demystifying what the range of human experience is. If I feel sad and I have a hard day, is that depression? Even if I feel depressed for a day or a few days, is that depression? Well, no it's not. And being able to tolerate and cope with the whole range of emotions, I think-- and that's what I'm hoping, is that the benefits of some of those programs, the social emotional learning programs, that's what we want to teach. There's a lot of things that are going to come up in your life. There's a lot of hard situations that are going to come up. There's going to be challenges. You're going to have emotional reactions to those. Some of those emotions are going to be distressing.  

[00:35:44] And how do we cope with those emotions in a way that's helpful, productive, functional. But the presence of those emotions is not, like I said in the email, pathology. The presence of those difficult experiences or even having a hard time or having a difficult time with something, that in itself is not pathology. It's how do we then cope with that and be resilient through that and grow from that? And I think that might be where the distinction is. We've destigmatized mental health disorders and conditions, and that is wonderful. And it's, I think, helping more people identify when they might need support and care and go get that care. But we also don't want it to be so de-stigmatized that it's almost like a special thing, like, "Oh, I have that. Me too. Me too." No, you might just have had a hard day. Let's look at what are the skills that we need to be able to get through those hard times rather than make them into something bigger than what they are.  

Sarah [00:36:46] Well, I just feel like perinatal women and teenagers have a lot in common. There's a lot of hormones. You're transitioning to a new phase of life. You're building a new identity. You feel very vulnerable about your failures. The stakes feel very high. The messages coming in online that are making that moment of transition worse; what do you see as far as the skills people are adapting to help them not only navigate that transition, but navigate a culture that does have a very, very loud narrative right now about mental health?  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:37:31] I agree with you completely that there's a lot of similarities between those two groups.  

Sarah [00:37:35] And there are so many other phases of life that there are similarities, right? Any transition, any time you're aging and your body's changing. Perimenopause comes to mind. That's why I was saying, like, this is not just about teenagers, that you are in a vulnerable space to this chatter.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:37:51] Yeah, absolutely. Well, and something that came to mind when you were saying that too, is you're entering something new, and in a lot of ways there can be a lot that's uncomfortable about it. And part of that's hormonal, but also part of that's just, like, this is new and hard and scary. And whether that's puberty, or having a new baby or going through perimenopause, or lots of other things in between, having a new job, or so many changes. And I think there can be you're experiencing this heightened level of experience and emotion and it can feel like this is hard and difficult and that something must be wrong. There could be something wrong here because it's very challenging. And so, I think that again the normalizing of what you're going through as, yes, this is hard and a lot of it is new to you, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's a pathology here.  

[00:38:49] There doesn't necessarily mean that there's something that you can't learn the skills to then cope with and get through and grow from, and grow into. As you know, we've all experienced when we've gone through these transitions ourselves. And then you look back and you remember how hard and challenging that was. And oh my gosh, I didn't know how I was going to get through the day sometimes, but I did. So, I think that these are kind of vulnerable. There are these vulnerable points of life where definitely there can be this feeling like something must be wrong with me. And that's why I think sometimes that normalization of this feels hard because it is hard and that this is new and scary in some ways but you can get through it, is helpful.  

Sarah [00:39:38] I know that in a previous life you did some content creation yourself. So, I'm wondering, in your new role, do you see creators use words, or do you run across a reel where you go, "No, ma'am. Unfollow. Do block. Do not. That is not helpful."  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:39:55] Yeah, definitely. I think you see both for sure. I think probably what I see is pretty tailored personally. Right. So, I probably don't run across as much of that. Well, just think about too in those phases where you do feel really vulnerable and you kind of are looking for answers in some ways. Maybe not everybody, but I think a lot of times you're looking for confirmation, like, is this normal? And I think sometimes what I see women do that I work with, is they will look at something that they see online and think like, oh, well, it's not hard for them, or they're doing it easier, or I'm the only one that's struggling with this. It's almost the opposite of what we were talking about before. That look at me too. I can identify with this. It's almost, like, feels like I'm the only one that's struggling. It is not necessarily that the content is the problem, is that you're in a vulnerable place and you're just kind of looking for some sort of confirmation that, like, I'm okay and this is okay. I do see really great content from creators that are saying, like, here's some of the symptoms of postpartum anxiety or something. And to recognize there are people that are struggling with some of the same things that I am. And that's why I was talking before about the magnifying glass of wanting to make sure that you're looking beyond just the symptom cluster and going beyond that.  

Sarah [00:41:33] But do you see things where you're like, no, that's not helpful. That's where we've crossed into territory that's going to feed people sort of pathologizing.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:41:43] Yeah, I think the things that I find unhelpful are flippantly referring to a diagnosis without really explaining what that actually means. Or if people are like, "Oh, well, that was just my OCD brain," but they don't explain it or maybe they don't have the qualifications to explain it. I think that's the stuff that kind of makes me feel like a little anxious. Because I'm there thinking if you're looking at that and you're just sort of gathering these like tidbits of like, oh, that's what OCD is, but it's not actually rooted in any sort of like contextualization. There's no education being done. It's just sort of this flippant-- so I definitely see that. I think when people are flippantly talking about things and they're naming diagnoses or they're using psychological language but they're not really defining it or explaining it, that's the stuff that I sometimes see. Or they're saying it, but that's not what that is. They're using a word, but that's actually not what that is.  

Sarah [00:42:51] See, that's also tough. It's almost like you need to be a mental health professional to even distinguish whether this content is helpful or not. You need a mental health professional to navigate some of this stuff.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:43:01] Yeah, I know. And I don't I don't want to come across like to disempower people that you have to have some sort of degree to be able to evaluate this stuff. Because I think there is also some benefit. I think if you're seeing a diagnosis just kind of like tossed out there, take that with a grain of salt. It's all I would say. Not that you have to have specific training in that thing to take in any content about it. And understand if they're not being clear about what their credentials are, you just want to take it with a grain of salt.  

Beth [00:43:38] I'm kind of stuck on, Jacey, how you said people are looking for some kind of confirmation that what I'm experiencing is in the range of normal or outside the range of normal. And then, Sarah, what you said at the beginning about what we've learned in terms of internet usage and physical health. Because I think the place that we're still bad at using the internet with physical health and really where we struggle with physical health in general, is identifying what level of distress do we tolerate? At what level of pain should I be using something external for relief? At what level of symptom should I go to the doctor? Even around a cold I struggle with, like, when is it time to call a doctor? Because I'm out of the range of an experience that I should just be tolerating on my own? And I can see why that is so much harder when we get to the realm of emotion and behavior and mental health and things that are even more ephemeral than physical pain, sometimes even more difficult to describe. So, are there any pointers that you have for us when we're experiencing some kind of emotional distress, that there would be a healthy way of trying to figure out am I in the range of what I should be able to tolerate, or am I beyond it?  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:45:02] That's such a great question. I really like that connection too. It's like, when I call in the extra help?  

Sarah [00:45:11] How long should I have the fever? What's the equivalent?  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:45:14] Yeah, exactly. And that is such a great question. And I think that does come back to kind of what I mentioned in the email, functional impairment. So, everything that we would classify it in the DSM, which is kind of the classification system that we use to diagnose major depressive disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, whatever these things are, there is a qualifier about functional impairment. And so, it's things like how long has this been going on, how often in some cases, and how intense is it? And so that's from a professional perspective. We're always going to be assessing for those things. To me, that criteria, kind of that diagnostic criteria, we're going to be assessing for those things. And if you in your own life are doing a little self-assessment, you are going to want to ask yourself questions like, is this getting in the way of how I function? Is this getting in the way of my relationships with other people, if I'm able to do my work, whatever that is, if I'm able to get through my day?  

[00:46:24] And if you're noticing some functional impairment, how much and has that been going on for? Because there are people that suffer for a long time and much longer than they need to because they're kind of like waiting for it to go away. Just like you could do with a physical condition, waiting for it to just kind of get better on its own. And so, I think those are the questions to be asking yourself if you're kind of looking at I've been really struggling, is it actually getting in the way of things that I'm wanting to do in my life or needing to do in my life? Functional impairment, basically. And on the flip side of that, when we're talking about tolerating distress, the framework that I use a lot with people that I find just super valuable and helpful is, yes, we may have some distress, we may have some things that we're struggling with, some difficult emotions. Can we still live a life that's according to our values?  

[00:47:24] Can we as act in spite of that distress? So, I might have some anxiety about social situations. Which is the social anxiety isn't actual diagnosable condition. I have some anxiety about social situations, but also relationships are really important to me. So, am I able to kind of push through that and feel that discomfort, but still try to form meaningful relationships? Because that's a value of mine and I know that's what I want in my life long term. And so, I'm always talking to people about that. Like, can we still live according to our values despite the distress we may feel? And so that's kind of the flip side of that, where you're talking about not being functionally impaired, being able to kind of continue to live a life that you want, even though you might have some distress. And if you're not able to do that, that might be the time to seek some support.  

Sarah [00:48:16] Well, and I think what's so hard when you take this back, this mental health prevalence to kids and teenagers is that, first of all, any sort of individual assessment bumps up against, like, when are they old enough to assess, when are they old enough to consent? I was reading this article and they were talking about the age of consent. They've lowered it to 12 in California and Colorado. I'm just going to be honest, that makes me uncomfortable knowing some 12-year-olds in my own life personally making some interesting decisions. That we could say, you can make that assessment and come in for treatment. And I think that that's where we really, I think, struggle with this prevalence inflation and the input of social media.  

[00:48:57] Because it's one thing to ask an adult-- even an adult in a tough situation, even an adult struggling with stuff-- to go through and think about can I still live according to my values? But a 12-year-old doesn't know their values. A 12-year-old doesn't know what they're capable of. A 12-year-old doesn't know in the same way that a 32-year-old or a 42-year-old would what they "normally" or in the past been capable of navigating. They just have a lot less life experience to take that assessment step or to see this content and then go, okay, well, this is what I should do with this content. And I think that's the really scary part.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:49:38] Yeah. And I think that's where loved ones can be helpful. Parents, if we're talking about younger teenagers, adolescents we're talking about, or even if as adults, if there are people in your life that can kind of maybe have a little bit of a lens on that, because sometimes we aren't seeing things clearly if we're in that kind of difficult period. But even some of the things are not-- it's like appetite disturbance, sleep disturbance. Some of the symptoms that we're talking about, especially for anxiety and depression, if there's a lot of frequent stomach aches for kids and adolescents-- which is not my area of expertise at all. But there can be things when we're saying functional impairment and being able to do your daily life, it's like, is this a kid who used to ask for a lot of playdates and now they're acting really withdrawn? Or our teenager who used to be out with their friends a lot and now they're not and they're on their phone. So, there can also be some things to look for that are more not totally just introspective like looking in and thinking about my own--  

Sarah [00:50:42] Yeah, objective indicators.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:50:44] Yeah.  

Beth [00:50:45] I feel really competent as a parent at teaching my kids about algorithms. Right? It's saying if you start watching reels or TikToks about mental health, the algorithm is going to decide that that's your interest and you're going to get fed that over and over. And there's something unhealthy about that. I thought the Atlantic piece by Derek Thompson that we've referenced a couple times spoke to that really well, because he said maybe a couple of these are helpful, but then when it becomes your constant stream, you don't get to move on. That's where it becomes pretty destructive. So, I feel capable of talking to my kids about that. I struggle a little bit with how to meet my kids in a place where I take their feelings seriously, and I still bring that adult perspective of I don't quite think this is interfering with your daily functions or your ability to live our family values. I'll give you an example, and I would just love for your feedback on how I handled this. Several years ago, Ellen, my younger daughter, she was maybe seven when this happened, came to me and said that she felt like she needed to see a therapist. And it was very surprising to me because I saw no changes in her behavior. She was talkative, outgoing, thriving at school, great feedback from teachers. There was just nothing that indicated to me that something was wrong.  

[00:52:11] But I also wanted to take seriously what she was telling me, and so I asked her if she might like to meet a couple of times with our children's pastor at church who she is very close to. I said, some people do seek pastoral counseling. So, I wonder if starting with the person you already know and having some conversation might be helpful. And so, our pastor was wonderful about it. She took her out for frozen yogurt. They went swimming once. They had a couple of chats and then Ellen came back to me and said, "Okay, I'm good. I don't need therapy anymore. And she was satisfied." And to me, I hope what she took from that is there are always lots of people who love you and can support you in different ways, and I will take seriously when you ask for help. But I didn't want to say, oh, there probably is something really wrong. I did want to pathologize. And so, I struggle with finding the right range. I still think about that sometimes. Like was that a good response? What can I learn from that? What could I have done better? If that happens again as they get older and I similarly feel like I don't see what's happening here, how do I respond in a healthy, constructive way?  

Sarah [00:53:22] And can I just pile on, Jacey, while you have this very difficult question that Beth has given you and say, I had this conversation with my husband this morning, that exact thing, about my son. And we had a listener email us once and said a lot of behavior among boys is pathologized if they're doing something that is sort of normal, developmentally appropriate behavior. We take them to a therapist and we pathologize this experience of being a boy inside of a school system or whatever the case might be. So, I have the same exact-- I literally had that conversation this morning about how do we affirm feelings, affirm challenges without pathologizing normal child development? I think that's tough.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:54:06] Yeah. Well, I love how you handled that. Did she give you any indication about what she was looking for from a therapist, or where she was coming from?  

Beth [00:54:17] She didn't. And I tried to ask without prying, and that's tough, too, because I want my children to feel that they can have interior lives where I'll respect their privacy and what they're comfortable saying and not. But I also want them to tell me literally everything at all times. And so, I said to her, do you feel like you're struggling with your friendships? Do you feel like something's wrong at school? And she said, "I just have things I feel like I need to talk to someone about." And so, she did. And I never ask either of them what they discussed. And I told them both that they could they could figure out the boundaries of these conversations and let me know because I'm learning here, too. But that was all really hard. It was really hard to not-- I wanted a full debrief, if I'm being honest, and I never got it. And so, that's just been kind of tricky. And I still don't know if that was the appropriate way to deal with it.  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:55:13] Yeah. Well, it sounds like it was. I mean, she was satisfied. And she said, "I have some things I want to talk to someone about." So, you kind of bridged that gap for her. And I think probably to this conversation, she's aware of what a therapist is because we're all aware. It's just become such a [inaudible]. So, in her mind, maybe she had some things she wanted to talk to someone about that wasn't mom and dad. And so, in her mind, she knew about, okay, therapist. That's who you talk to if you need to talk to somebody. And I think if you had taken her to a therapist, it also would have probably been fine. But it doesn't sound like she needed necessarily a paid professional. And there's just so much value to and just kids having other adults that aren't their parents that they're comfortable talking to.  

[00:56:08] And the fact that she got to have that one-on-one time with a trusted adult in your community, but without you having to get the full debrief, because that could definitely be a problem. That can be problematic if you're like, well, you can talk to this person that's going to tell me everything that you said. But then she got to have this one-on-one time with a trusted adult. That relationship can continue. And she can she can [inaudible] out on her own when she's 14, 17. That's something that I think in this situation with her at her age and kind of what the presenting concerns were, that's almost I think more beneficial than if she had seen a therapist. Just to kind of deepened a bond with another adult in the community.  

Sarah [00:56:54] Well, that was my next question. What I little bit worry about with this mental health conversation is that we're going to get to where we were with teachers, where we've asked teachers to solve everything, and now we're asking therapists to solve everything. Things that aren't individual pathologies that need professional care, but that are societal things. Even when you're talking about the debrief, I thought about Betty Draper psychologist, Colin Don Draper, and telling him everything she said on Mad Men. Betty Draper didn't need a therapist. She needed to not be married to Don Draper and live in the 1960s. You know what I mean? Like, that was it. It wasn't something the therapist could solve for her. I think that that's what's really tough. It's like, yes, we still have a problem with access. More people need care they can access it. And at the same time, I think that we don't want to walk down a road where it's just the answer to every problem is a therapist, especially if they're societal problems, if they're institutional problems. If they're just a difference in sort of ethics and approaches. I mean, there's a big racial divide when you talk about the consenting age of a child to be treated as far as when people think that's acceptable and when they don't. And I think that all these components, not even before we get to social media and the algorithm, say, we're dealing with a lot here and we can't all just put it in therapist’s laps and say, "Fix it for us, please."  

Jacey Verdicchio [00:58:21] No, I know, and God bless you if you're a school counselor and then you're about that. 

Beth [00:58:27] Yeah. You're teacher in a campus. 

Jacey Verdicchio [00:58:33] Yeah, I totally agree with you that we can't outsource all of this. And that is a danger, I think, that we're kind of asking what may be idealistically used to have been or should be the role of a community and support in that we're trying to outsource that to like, well, everyone just needs to have a therapist. And I have these conversations all the time in theory with people where I'm trying to help them. Like, how can we access more social support in your life? How can we build out more relationships? Because I am not that and I cannot be that. I'm in one hour every couple of weeks or maybe weekly. And when we look at what we know about psychological health, it isn't that you're in therapy forever and ever; it's that you are in a community and that you have social support, that you have meaningful relationships, that you have a sense of purpose. And so, when I'm working with people in therapy, I'm trying to help them build these things in their lives. Because therapy is I think sometimes that-- you're right-- we're trying to outsource all of this into these one-hour appointments when it's much bigger than that. And so, that's why I was thinking, with Ellen, building that social support is actually going to be so much more beneficial to her long term. And you did validate her feelings. I didn't address that part of it, but you did validate her feelings. She said, "I want to talk to someone," you helped her get someone to talk to. And I think that all those things are really important.  

Beth [01:00:23] Well, some of that comes from my experience in therapy. When I was seeing a therapist, part of what he would say to me kind of regularly was like, "Why isn't there anyone in your life that you're trusting with this conversation except me?" And it was hard to hear, and it was true and important. And it's something that I've worked really hard on and that I want to instill in my children. I hope that you always have a community around you to help you with the things in life that are in the range of what we can handle without phoning a professional. So that when you need a professional, as is normal and fine and appropriate, it has a different impact. It's building on top of the structure instead of you having, like me, to go to the professional to help you build the structure.  

Jacey Verdicchio [01:01:16] Yes, absolutely. I was working with a woman that had been through a very traumatic experience with her baby and came to me. And I was kind of getting the initial assessment and figuring out, and it was kind of like, well, everyone has told me that I should be here. She'd never been in therapy before. Everyone's told me I need a therapist. And I met with her for several sessions and was able to kind of say, look, you are coping really well with this. You have a support system. You have other people in your life that you're talking to about this. You don't have any symptomology that's like out of the range of normal that needs treatment. Trauma doesn't mean PTSD. Most people that go through a trauma recover. Most people recover naturally on their own. I think we've made trauma and PTSD like synonyms and they're not. And I was able to just kind of empower her to say, I don't know that you actually do need to be here, because you are coping with this beautifully on your own. You have the skill set, you have the support, you have the people. I'm really enjoying talking with you and getting to know you, but I don't know that you need this conversation. I don't know that there's a value add here for you.  

Sarah [01:02:45] Well, that reminds me of when Jason Kander came on our show and was, like, "I'd never heard post-traumatic growth. I just had post-traumatic stress disorder. I just had a description of the problem. I hadn't even heard articulated that there was light on the other side of the tunnel." And I think that's so true. And I do this myself. I have somebody experience a trauma and I'm like, you need to talk to somebody about it. Again, we've destigmatized to the point of that we are losing the complexity of the individual situation. Therapy in its best iteration, you get treated as the individual that you are. And instead, we've like shrunk it down to this dimension where we've made it this plug and play, because that's what we want as humans. Just tell me what to do and how to fix it, and then I'll move on. And we sort of shortcut to you if just go to a therapist, then that'll fix everything. And that's not necessarily true. It's not necessarily required. I want to get to tell this woman, "Hey, you're coping beautifully. Look at you go." I'm glad she went to you just so she could hear that. But I do think-- again, I just do it myself. Somebody experiences something hard, and you go, "You really should go talk to somebody about that." It's like automatic.  

Jacey Verdicchio [01:03:56] And to bring that back to what do we want these Social Emotional Learning programs to do? What do we want this prevalence awareness to do? I think maybe it's that we want all of us collectively to be more comfortable with the fact of difficult and painful emotions as a part of life. Because I think part of why we're, like, "Go talk to someone," is because we're like, "I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to hold that with you. I don't know how to sit with you in that. I'm uncomfortable. I don't feel like I'm equipped to help you through that. So, you should go talk to a professional." Whereas, really, we are all equipped in having your friend and your family and your community be there with you in that is actually probably what you need more and is going to lend to that long term healing and growth more than seeing a therapist. So maybe that's kind of the goal, is that we're putting these things in the right perspective. That we are helping each other cope when we have these kinds of challenges, painful experiences, difficult emotions.  

Sarah [01:05:02] Well, and I think you can see where social media comes in when we don't know what to say, when we don't know what to feel, when we don't know how to sit in this difficulty. Be it a real pathology or just a difficult time, social media says you don't have to do anything but watch this video. You don't have to do anything but look at this content. The consumption of the content will fix it. And I think that's the danger to me. That's danger area. It's because we are vulnerable. In a difficult time or in a difficult disorder, we're vulnerable. And in my experience, content consumption is not often a value add in a vulnerable moment in your life. It's pretty rare. Even where social media I have found a community to support me, that was not content consumption. That was a Facebook group with real humans going, "Yep, I can help you with that." And so, I just think that whenever it becomes a consumption model, like when people are vulnerable, there's exploitation and risk and harm on the table.  

Beth [01:06:05] Yeah. Well, I feel really convicted to watch myself because I do the same thing, Sarah. I'll say, "Maybe you should talk to someone about that." So, I'm a therapy evangelist. I loved my experience in therapy. I wouldn't trade it for anything. And so, I do recommend it all the time. 

Sarah [01:06:22] I still go to therapy. Full disclosure. I go every other week.  

Beth [01:06:27] But I think what I hear in this conversation is part of what I need to communicate is I'm willing to be your trusted support system through this, or a part of whatever your support system is through this, hard thing. I'm going to be more careful, I think, about saying, "Hey, why don't you outsource this? Because this is a lot for me."  

Jacey Verdicchio [01:06:51] Yeah. And sometimes it's both. Of course, there's still value. And therapy can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, you know? So, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be drowning to find value in getting a therapist either.  

Sarah [01:07:06] Allow me to say that's the value I find for therapy in my life. I just have a lot. Just on baseline, I have a lot. I have three kids, one is disabled. I have a full-time job and a lot of very close relationships in my life. I just am comfortable saying it's a lot and so I'm going to add this extra layer of support. I really do just see it as support. I don't think I will need it forever. I do anticipate having fewer children in my home and less stress in my life and not going to therapy regularly. But right now, that's how it feels to me. And it helps move me forward in a lot of ways as opposed to feeling overwhelmed and stuck, which I think I have felt at other points in my life. And so, thank you to all the therapists. Thank you to you for helping women in particularly in a very vulnerable moment in life. And thank you for joining us for this conversation.  

Jacey Verdicchio [01:08:04] Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.  

[01:08:06] Music Interlude.  

Beth [01:08:16] Thank you so much to Jacey for joining us. Sarah, you mentioned to me that Alexa etiquette is on your mind. And as soon as you put those two words together, everything in me said, yes, let's talk about that.  

Sarah [01:08:29] So we're Alexa-d up here. We have the Alexa screen in the kitchen, and then we have Alexa in several bedrooms and places, including the bonus room where often my children are. My first piece of Alexa etiquette that really bothers me-- and I don't care if you just have one Alexa. I do not like it when people cancel Alexa timers. So, the timer goes off and you, a person who just walked into the room and who has no idea what the Alexa timer is for, tells Alexa to stop. I need everyone to quit it, because that's how things get burned and forgotten. If you don't know what the timer is for, better yet, if you did not set the timer, then you need to let it go off. I know it's annoying. I am very auditory sensitive. I carry earplugs everywhere I go. I get it. It's annoying. And it's not just kids who do it. My parents do it sometimes and I'm like, "Hey, hey, you don't know what that's for. You cannot tell Alexa to stop." But it's like this reflex. She goes off and everybody goes, "Alexa, stop." And I'm like, "Whoa, you don't know what that was for. Don't do that."  

Beth [01:09:37] Do you name your timers?  

Sarah [01:09:40] No. And that would probably be helpful.  

Beth [01:09:41] That's what I've started doing for this very reason. And also, I sometimes have multiple cooking timers going at once. So, it's super helpful to say this one is the potatoes or whatever. But I think that helps because then at least if somebody stops the timer, they can say, "Hey, the potato timer just went off."  

Sarah [01:09:58] Yeah that's true. That's good. That's a hard one. It's hard to build in new habits when your old habits are so ingrained. But I'll try to remember to do that. But it just feels like there needs to be some etiquette around when you're using the Alexa and then someone else comes in and use the Alexa. There's was a battle for a long time in my house around music because we didn't pay for the Alexa Prime so that everybody could play their own music. So now we use Spotify on Alexa, and my kids have the free Spotify accounts and have the absolute gull to request paid account so they don't have to listen to ads. I'm like, do you understand how I used to listen to music? Do you understand I used to hold a jam box up to CMT so that I could record Achy Breaky Heart and have it for myself? No, you can listen to the commercials.  

Beth [01:10:53] We have a lot of Spotify thievery that goes on here, because we do have a paid account that Jane, Ellen and I share. And so, if Jane is listening and then Ellen wants to listen, it's like Spotify has been stolen from you. Suddenly your song stops and the new thing starts.  

Sarah [01:11:11] Do you have this thing where you'll be listening to Spotify in your car and it will just switch to the Tesla?  

Beth [01:11:17] I don't think so.  

Sarah [01:11:18] This is something that happens all the time. I'm listening in my car; Nicholas is on the other end of town and it will just decide to start playing whatever I'm listening to in the Tesla. It's so weird.  

Beth [01:11:28] What happens to me is I'm in my car listening to music, and Jane is at home getting ready to do her skincare or whatever, and it just stops.  

Sarah [01:11:35] And she says, "Alexa, play Lizzo," and then all of a sudden, you're not listening anymore. And that really makes me angry when that happens.  

Beth [01:11:43] I don't like the Spotify thievery one bit. The thing that bugs me the most is I've made dinner and I have some resentment about the fact that I've made the dinner probably, and I announce on Alexa that dinner is ready because everyone is scattered here, they're in yonder, and it makes the cute little bell sound. And then someone under the age of 18 announces back, "Just a minute."  

Sarah [01:12:18] No. No Just a minute. Right now. That's what I meant. Dinner's ready right now.  

Beth [01:12:22] And you know what? Even if it is just a minute, fine. But telling me on an intercom system in my own house, it just upsets me very, very much. Occasionally, someone will have the gall to announce, "I'm not really hungry right now."  

Sarah [01:12:42] [Gasps.]  

[01:12:42] Thank you for that reaction. That was very affirming.  

Sarah [01:12:44] No, ma'am! I have not raised my children to be good little soldiers, and so I really would like them to be good little soldiers when I'm tired and in a bad mood. I don't think that's a big ask. I'll let you off the hook every other time. So why when I ask you and I mean it can't you just do it?  

Beth [01:13:08] And I'm not going to force anybody to eat who doesn't want to eat, but walk yourself down the stairs and look at my face and look at what I've made for you before you tell me that you're not feeling hungry right now.  

Sarah [01:13:19] Yeah. I don't really want any communication between the floors. I don't want you talking back to me through the Alexa. Amos does this all the time. "Amos." "Yeah." "Come here." "What for?" No, I don't want to have a conversation through the floors of our home. Come downstairs and we'll talk about it. Drives me crazy.  

Beth [01:13:38] And I just feel when I've made the dinner like I've put in a lot of effort here. So, I guess they could say, well, you should just walk upstairs and get us. And I think but I'm making the dinner. 

Sarah [01:13:50] But I pay the mortgage.  

Beth [01:13:50] I did all these things. It would be really cool of you to just come down the stairs and then look in my face and tell me that you don't want what I made. That's fine.  

Sarah [01:13:59] Well, and the other Alexa issue we have is I got the Alexa Show because I loved it so much in your home because it shows the calendar of events. That's what I really like. I like that it shows the weather and it shows the calendar, and the kids can see what's coming up that day. And they do. They'll say, "Oh, I have a haircut this afternoon." I think it's really great. Except for inevitably they figured out it plays. It's basically TV. So, then I come downstairs to the MLB highlights and them both standing there watching YouTube. So, then I have to put the Alexa Show on the circle and block YouTube, and then it's like another screen I'm battling. So, I've been very close the last few months to just pulling it off the wall and putting a regular Alexa back there. But I really like being able to drop in and see them, even though we haven't been traveling as much. I don't know. It's always a challenge.  

Beth [01:14:48] It's interesting. My kids have not really figured out that it's a TV, so they've never pulled up YouTube on the air. Now, they do like to play games on it. There's a trivia game that they love to play. So, they'll get enamored with that.  

Sarah [01:15:01] Poll of the day. We always have to do the poll of the day.  

Beth [01:15:04] Yes, they like the poll of the day. But I don't really mind any of that because sometimes we have kind of interesting conversations around it, so that's fine. But they have not started just staring at it like a television.  

Sarah [01:15:14] Yeah, well hope they never figure it out.  

Beth [01:15:16] Fingers crossed. Yeah, we'll not let them listen to this episode.  

Sarah [01:15:18] Listen, they will find a way. They're like water and technology. So, Felix has a cell phone because it sends his blood glucose levels to us via CGM. And about four months ago, I thought, hold up. Wait a second. He didn't need the code to this phone. I just need the phone to be on his person to send me the readings. He didn't need to be on the phone because the phone was-- I didn't want my nine-year-old to have cell phone for numerous reasons. And so, I changed the code. He wasn't happy about it. He got over it. But the things he can do through Siri without ever unlocking the phone is shocking. She will give him all the scores. She will do all kinds of things without him knowing the code of the phone.  

Beth [01:15:59] And I feel that that kind of problem is going to get a lot harder. Like, exponentially harder in a very, very short amount of time.  

Sarah [01:16:09] And that's probably why we need to join these moms against tech, man, like the new mad. But they're just for screens and just be, like, forget it. Lock them up, take them away, put them in an envelope at school. I think what we're learning is like the policing is futile. It needs to just be taken away.  

Beth [01:16:26] Yeah, the policing is futile.  

Sarah [01:16:27] That's another episode of Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [01:16:30] And at the same time, last night Ellen was like, "I think we should be against AI." And I said, "Well, Ellen, it's not really a for or against kind of thing. It's a how do we use it? How do we use it thoughtfully? Where does it make sense? Where does it not. What are the risks and benefits look like?" But in my head, I was kind of, like, maybe I am a little bit. Maybe I would give up the GPS that is guiding us on the most efficient path to the baseball game right now, to not have to deal with some of the things that are coming our way. I don't know. It's tricky. Well, thank you all for being here. We'd love to hear your Alexa etiquette tips. What are you struggling with in your households and how have you fixed it? We will be back in your ears on Wednesday because there's a holiday weekend. Sarah has a very fun conversation to share with Elizabeth Holmes. I have so many thoughts about political fashion. You're going to love it. Until then, make sure you head to the link in our show notes to get tickets for The Nuance Life Live on May 30th, and everybody have the best holiday weekend available to you.  

[01:17:28] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.   Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.
 

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