Talking to Kids About the Election
TOPICS DISCUSSED
Talking to Your Kids About Politics
Beth and Ellen Discuss the Presidential Debate
Outside of Politics: Screen Time
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EPISODE RESOURCES
We are thrilled to announce a joint live show this November with one of our favorites, Vanessa Zoltan of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text! Join us in Boston vis live stream on November 7 - for a fun night among friends.
CNN gets it half right - by Chris Cillizza (So What - Substack)
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TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.
Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.
[00:00:14] Music Interlude
[00:00:29] We're so happy you're here with us. If you are new to Pantsuit Politics, welcome. Thank you for checking us out and giving us some of your precious time. We try to take a different approach to the news here. By which we mean we are not journalists, we're not pundits, and we are not stumping for one party or the other or for any particular politician. We're just people. And we try to bring the whole of our life experiences to every conversation that we have together. Sarah and I have been making pantsuit politics since November 2015, so we are pretty practiced in showing up with our whole selves, with our different personalities and thoughts and questions. And we hope that we start conversations that our audience can then continue with the people in your lives.
[00:01:11] Today, that different approach to the news is going to take us deep into our parenting, because we often are asked how we talk to our kids about politics. So we're going to share some tips that have served us well with our kids. And we're going to begin with a conversation that I had with my daughter, Ellen, who is nine, after the presidential debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris as just one example. And then on Friday, you'll get to hear Sarah talking with her teenage son, Griffin and Brian Tyler Cohen about progressive politics. What happens when your kids get to a place where they have their own opinions and thoughts about the world and how do you navigate that? So we hope both of these episodes are valuable to you.
Sarah [00:01:49] Before we dive in, don't forget that we have a live show in Boston coming up on Thursday, November 7th. We will be there with the lovely Vanessa Zoltan of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. If you can't join us in person, don't worry, there's a livestream ticket option. You can check out both the tickets for Boston and the tickets for the livestream are on sale now, and you can get more information in the show notes of this episode.
Beth [00:02:13] Next up, we'll talk about our general approach to chatting with our kids about politics. Sarah, for people who don't know us, let's just talk about our families for a second. So I have two daughters. One is nine and one is 13. They are both pretty interested in talking to me about politics. The conversations go in different directions, but they both like to discuss the stuff.
Sarah [00:02:45] I have three sons, a 15-year-old, a 13-year-old and a nine-year-old. The 15-year-old is very politically engaged and interested in politics. The 13-year-old is incredibly conflict adverse and so does not enjoy any of our conversations about politics. And the baby, as is often the case, just wants to be in it. So he does a pretty mean Trump impression. He likes to hear what we're arguing about. He wants to know more. He has lots of questions and he just wants to be all up in it if we're talking about politics.
Beth [00:03:26] I think one of the really different dynamics between my two girls is that my 13-year-old often starts these conversations now based on what her friends are saying at school. This is what I heard about today. Here's what someone said. Can you believe this person thinks this mom? Whereas, my nine year old is exposed more in our home. She'll see a headline come up on our Amazon echo screen in the kitchen, or she'll just peek around my shoulder. What are you working on? What's that about? Tell me more. And I think the way it comes up really influences where we go with those conversations.
Sarah [00:04:00] Yeah, it's really funny. My oldest son, Griffin, the 15-year-old, is like the politico of his little friend group. So he gets a lot of questions. He's answering their questions. And he does a lot here at Pantsuit Politics. He was on the chat for the vice presidential debate with me. He has been on the show a couple of times. Obviously, he's going to be on the episode next. So he is really in particular engaged online. So it's not just that he is the primary political person in his friend group, it's that he exists in a lot of very online communities and discords and spaces on the Internet. I would call him extremely online. And so that informs an enormous amount of what he's engaging with. I think my middle son and my youngest they're getting a lot of it from us. But still things will bubble up at school, even at the elementary school level. I remember when Griffin was little they were all obsessed with North Korea. He would come home asking me about North Korea, like third grade. I'm like, why are you all talking about North Korea? And so it's just so funny and weird what bubbles up in the different spaces and what they show up asking about.
Beth [00:05:12] I feel like World War Three comes up every time there's any conflict in the world. That's what my girls hear at school and come home and want to talk about. When we talked about political conversations with your kids last, we sort of gravitated to four principles. Trust them. Trust yourself. Say what you know. Say what you don't. I'm really curious as we're talking now and you have an older kid who is very online, as you described, how do you think about that trust them idea and how do you deal with the fact that you aren't his main or only source of information now?
Sarah [00:05:49] I don't know if I would say I totally trust him. It's not that I don't totally trust him. I don't totally trust his sources. And so we do a lot of media education. If he likes a take from a source that's really hard on the times, let's say-- listen, because people love to beat up The New York Times online; it's like the Internet's number one hobby. I'll say, well, look at this video that you're watching. They're presenting some strong critiques. They're still depending on links to stories and actual journalism from legacy media. They can't do this shtick if they don't have the actual stories to base the shtick on. And so we kind of talk about that. And I've got him logged on, he has the app. He can read the stories themselves. He can click through the links. And I think part of it right now in our current media environment is if you want your kids to engage, they're going to have to be behind a paywall.
[00:06:44] You're going to have to get them somewhere where they can get the links. Because if you're barely getting them to engage with primary sources and they're hitting a paywall every time, that's not going to work. So that was a big thing that changed recently, is I had to get him logged in. I had to get him access to these sources so that he could go deeper and read the links and think about the perspectives and start to sort out the difference between opinion and news, which is the thing I'm not sure a lot of adults do regularly, but I'm really, really trying to teach him that.
Beth [00:07:19] Chris Cillizza had in his Substack this week a chart about how many people pay for their news. And last year, one in five Americans paid for any kind of online news, which is pretty low among our peer countries in the world. In Norway you have the height of it, about 39 percent of people paying for some kind of online news. But even that is a little bit scary when you think about how much garbage is out there for free, and the quality work is so often behind a paywall.
Sarah [00:07:55] Well, listen, it's not free. It's paid for by advertising. Which means they need clicks, which means they need conflict, which means they need a lot of opinions to get people fired up and engaging with the content. And that's what I'm really trying to teach my kids to recognize.
Beth [00:08:13] That's right. They're taking from you, just not your dollars. And your dollars end up being a lot cheaper in the full ledger of how this evens out. I think when I say trust them, I mean a little bit. Something like trust them to lead the conversation. Trust that they're going to ask you a question that lets you know something about what they're really after. My daughter, Ellen, who you'll hear from in a minute, her favorite thing while we are waiting in the car or taking a walk, she loves to do conversation questions. Last night on a walk, I said, "Ellen, if you could invent a holiday, what holiday would you invent and what would be its traditions?" That's her jam. She wants to do that all the time. And so often when she is asking me about something in the news, she really doesn't want to know sort of that the surface level headline. She wants to connect it to something relevant to her life that's a little bit deeper. And so I try to just listen for what I'm being asked. My daughter, Jane, who is in middle school, often wants to know are her friends on the level or not? Do they have good information or not? So it's a really different posture for the conversation and you lose them fast if you go out of their frame. So I try to really stay in their frame.
Sarah [00:09:34] Well, I think that the difficulty is the older they get, especially I have found with older teenagers, is that the framing is not question oriented at all. It is black and white, right and wrong, very reductive, very what kind of person am I? I'm a good person. They're bad person. I wouldn't find a lot of nuance or curiosity inside a lot of these conversations. And that's what I'm trying to push at, even though I know that's just developmentally appropriate. They've got to build up some ideas so they can tear them down and get to a better place. So it's hard to trust just that they're where they need to be, which is not where you are. Of course it's not. That to me is that the hardest part of trusting the process, in trusting them and trusting myself and understanding that they're not going to come to an adult perspective on this because they're not adults. And that part is really hard.
Beth [00:10:36] So I wonder if a slight adjustment here is just trusting the relationship. Trusting that your relationship with Griffin can handle when you say the source is relying on legacy media to do this schtick and it is a schtick, and here's why they're doing it. With my girls trusting that if I say, "Your friends are wrong," which I did, I got a little bit heated about this conversation I heard happening in the eighth grade about Kamala banning TikTok. I was like pump the brakes. We do not want it out there that vice president Harris has banned TikTok. That is an action of Congress. And I start explaining the whole thing. And I have to trust that sometimes I can challenge pretty hard what's being said and that our relationship can withstand that.
Sarah [00:11:22] Yeah, because it is hard on the relationship- it really is. Especially with really intense topics like the conflict in the Middle East or sort of big systemic problems like climate change, because the investment, the perspective, the stakes are just different generationally. And you want to, as a parent, say I'm invested in you as you are because I love you with my whole heart. But that is more complicated. That is true. We want the world for them, and also we are not going to go through life, we're not going to go through the same planet or country or politics that they are in the same way they are. And that's really hard to remember that the stakes are different from them. And if you don't acknowledge that and you don't as best you can own the limitation of that, I think it can be hard in the relationship.
[00:12:22] Because I think what happens so often is just, well, you don't understand. You don't care about it because you already have a house or you don't have to worry about student loans or whatever the case may be. That can be really difficult. I feel like so often if you scratch it, what kids are asking is just are we going to be okay? Are we going to be okay? And the most difficult answer is I don't know. And that's always true as a parent. It doesn't matter what you're talking about. And that part is really hard inside these particularly big political issues like climate change, like gun violence, like international conflict. I think so often even the older kids are really just saying either are we going to be okay or we're not going to be okay. And I'm mad about that. And if you try to talk me out of being mad about that, it's just going to make it worse.
Beth [00:13:13] Well, I think this is not that different from conversations with adults in that most people just want a sense that we're going to be okay. And most of us realize that we don't know. And it can be very hard on a relationship to challenge where someone is or to have where you are challenged. It is also very connecting when you have those moments where you say, look, I don't know. I want so badly to say, yes, but I actually don't know. And I think that especially with your kids modeling, our relationship can withstand this, our relationship can be stronger on the other side of this discussion, and I will always be honest with you. I will tell you how I understand things. I will tell you that other people see it differently than I do. And I will tell you what I absolutely do not understand. I think that's how we are bringing up citizens in our houses, bringing up people who are going to be able to continue to have conversations throughout their lives that are healthy and good.
Sarah [00:14:11] And I would say I think the important addition to this idea of talking with your kids, is don't be the only one they're talking to about politics. I see a lot that when it skips a generation, that when my kids talk to their grandparents, even when their politics are very, very, very far apart, it goes more smoothly from both sides. Where there would be more conflict if I was talking to my dad or if I'm talking to Griffin, if I just remove myself and Griffin and my dad are talking, it goes a lot better. It's not as intense. I think that intergenerational perspective can be really powerful. I think when they're talking to teachers or mentors or coaches or either their friends’ parents I think it's really important that they get a lot of adult perspectives.
[00:15:12] So I think one of the most important things is not to feel like, as is often the case in parenting, that we're solely responsible for shepherding them through this. It does take a village. It takes a village to teach them about politics and media just as much as it takes a village to teach them how to live a life. And so easing the pressure on ourselves to be the ones they're talking to, to be the ones answering all their questions, to say [inaudible] answer this. Let's call up my friend so-and-so who works in health care and hear their perspective on this or whatever the case. But phone a friend. Phone a friend. It doesn't have to be us every single time.
Beth [00:15:48] Absolutely. And I really try to prime them for the fact that they're going to hear lots of different things. Every time we have a political discussion that is more than just an easy question with an answer. What is this office that's on the ballot? When it gets into an area where people have really strong and very different feelings, I try to say this is how I see it. A lot of people see it differently. Here are some people we love who I know see this differently. And if you get a chance to talk to them about that, I think you should listen because it's hard. None of these things have easy answers. I was so happy to hear that one of Jane's teachers has been talking to them pretty openly about the presidential election. I worry that we've scared our teachers. Yes. And we've made it way too hard for them to be part of this team of adults who are helping us create new citizens.
[00:16:40] And so it's on my to do list today to send her a thank you note for being willing to wade into that because she needs that voice. Her dad and I cannot be the sum total of making up her political views. So in broad strokes, we believe in talking to our kids, often mostly on their terms, but with a lot of care for how the relationship is developing as we have those conversations. It's probably more useful to hear us do this than to talk about doing it. So next up, you're going to hear from my daughter, Ellen. We recorded this conversation right after Kamala Harris and Donald Trump debated back in September. And then I convinced Ellen to stick around for Outside of Politics. Convince is a strong word. Ellen loves a microphone. As you'll hear our hilarious chat about screen time after we discuss the debate.
[00:17:29] Music Interlude.
[00:17:39] I'm here with a very special guest. Will you please introduce yourself and say how old you are?
Ellen [00:17:43] Hi, I'm Ellen and I am nine.
Beth [00:17:46] Ellen, you wanted to watch the presidential debate between Vice President Harris and former President Trump. And I see in your hands a stack of Post-it notes where you've written some questions down. I don't know what they say, but I'm excited to hear them. You want to talk through them?
Ellen [00:18:01] So the first one is, will the winner of the presidential race only be president through January 1st, 2025 to January 1st, 2029?
Beth [00:18:13] That's correct, Ellen. Yes. A president serves a four year term and then a president can run again. So you can have two four year terms or eight years total, but you have to win that second election.
Ellen [00:18:24] Yeah. Okay. What is Project 2025?
Beth [00:18:28] Project 2025 is something that a group called the Heritage Foundation put together. The Heritage Foundation is what's called a think tank. Do you know what that means?
Ellen [00:18:39] No.
Beth [00:18:39] It's kind of like an organization whose job is to do ideas and to put forward proposals that Congress can consider and leaders can consider. So this think tank that has a bunch of people who've worked in government before, people who work in colleges and study issues, they put together their ideas for what President Trump should do or the next Republican president should do after being elected. Because at the very beginning of the president's job, one of the first things that has to be done is like hiring people to work in the executive branch. So you've heard of the FBI or the CDC?
Ellen [00:19:22] Yes, I have.
Beth [00:19:22] So all of those agencies have tons of positions that the president appoints. And so Project 2025 is about getting those people in place, giving them lots of power to do what the president wants and then saying, here's what the president wants.
Ellen [00:19:40] The next one is just I'm scared.
Beth [00:19:44] What are you scared of?
Ellen [00:19:46] I don't know. It just is I'm scared.
Beth [00:19:49] Do you remember what you were watching when you wrote down that you were scared.
Ellen [00:19:51] I think it was the one about the abortion.
Beth [00:19:54] Abortion?
Ellen [00:19:55] Yeah, that's scaring me.
Beth [00:19:56] What makes you feel scared about that?
Ellen [00:19:59] I don't know.
Beth [00:20:00] Do you feel scared this morning?
Ellen [00:20:02] No.
Beth [00:20:02] Okay. Well, then why don't we talk about that again when that feeling comes up?
Ellen [00:20:05] Yeah. How old is Kamala Harris and Donald Trump?
Beth [00:20:11] So Kamala Harris is 59. She will be 60 in October.
Ellen [00:20:15] I thought she was in her late 40s.
Beth [00:20:18] I think she does have a very youthful vibe, doesn't she?
Ellen [00:20:22] Definitely.
Beth [00:20:23] And Donald Trump.
Ellen [00:20:24] He's like 80 something, right?
Beth [00:20:27] He is 78. His birthday was in June.
Ellen [00:20:31] I thought he was like 80. Why do they shake hands?
Beth [00:20:35] At the beginning of a debate, usually the two candidates will shake hands because it is a sign of respect. And it's a way of saying even though we see this really differently and we're running against each other, we're doing something really important right now. These are two people running to be the president of 330 million Americans. That's a really big deal. And there are little things like handshakes that occasionally we build into processes just to remind us this is about more than me and my feelings. I'm here to be part of something that's bigger than me. And I think a handshake is a really easy way to say I want to do this with respect for how big of a deal this is. Does that make sense?
Ellen [00:21:19] But they do end up like yelling at each other.
Beth [00:21:22] They go hard at each other, for sure, but that also kind of respects what a big deal it is. Is there anything you can think of, like a handshake that you do at school or at church to remind you this is bigger than me?
Ellen [00:21:33] Not really.
Beth [00:21:35] What I was thinking about, Ellen, is how you all say the Pledge of Allegiance at school.
Ellen [00:21:39] Yeah.
Beth [00:21:39] And you light the candles before church services. There are lots of little places where we just build in habits that are kind of rituals.
Ellen [00:21:48] And the Longbranch Pledge.
Beth [00:21:49] Yes. Ways to say this is bigger than me. Okay. What's your next question?
Ellen [00:21:54] What does he mean by her boss spends so much time at the beach?
Beth [00:21:59] So that is a slam that Donald Trump has used to talk about Joe Biden. He doesn't want to say Vice President Harris's name. And I don't really understand that. I guess it's just a way of disrespecting her. And he doesn't use Joe Biden's name a whole lot either. And so he said "her boss" which is a way to sort of put them both down.
Ellen [00:22:24] He did say Joe Biden a lot of times in this.
Beth [00:22:28] That's true. He uses Joe Biden's name more than hers. Joe Biden has a beach house in Delaware where he's from. And he goes there on the weekends sometimes.
Ellen [00:22:40] That's nice.
Beth [00:22:41] Yeah, it's nice. And so that's what he means by your boss is at the beach. Donald Trump also went to his houses a lot while he was the president, so it's a little bit of a hypocritical thing to say. Do you know what that means?
Ellen [00:22:54] Like a touché thing?
Beth [00:22:55] Yeah, a little bit, I guess. I just think it's kind of rich from Donald Trump to say that. It's like saying it's fine for me to vacation when I'm the president, but not for you to take a break.
Ellen [00:23:08] Okay. This next one says, I'd like to point out that Donald Trump kept interrupting the host of this.
Beth [00:23:14] How did you feel about that?
Ellen [00:23:16] I kind of felt annoyed because it's not like he gets to talk every single second of the show.
Beth [00:23:26] I think some people look at that and think that that's what a leader does, that he just takes the time he wants, that he sort of dominates the space.
Ellen [00:23:35] I can understand that.
Beth [00:23:37] Yeah. And I think other people view it more like you and that's how I feel, too. I think it's disrespectful. I think when you say you're going to do a debate, then you need to agree to the rules and the format and respect the fact that people want to hear everyone.
Ellen [00:23:51] And he is timed. He has a certain amount of time to speak and he is talking out of that time.
Beth [00:23:58] And how do you feel about that?
Ellen [00:24:00] I also feel kind of annoyed about that.
Beth [00:24:03] I can understand that.
Ellen [00:24:05] This one says, why are we talking about abortion?
Beth [00:24:11] Why are we talking about abortion? You know what abortion means?
Ellen [00:24:15] Yes.
Beth [00:24:17] You said that with a question in your voice. Are you sure? Do you feel confident?
Ellen [00:24:22] Doesn't it mean like they get rid of the baby before it's out?
Beth [00:24:28] Yes. So if you are pregnant and for any number of reasons decide that you cannot carry that baby for nine months and let it develop in your body and then give birth to it and raise it, there are medical ways to stop that development and end that beginning of life before it becomes a person. So we are talking about abortion because for the last 50 years in America, the Supreme Court said there is some right for women to make that decision with their doctors. There is some right for people early in a pregnancy to decide that they cannot have the baby. It was always a little fuzzy about how long that right lasted or how big that right was or what restrictions could be put on it. But we had some protection. Last year the Supreme Court changed its mind about that and said, no, there's not a right anymore.
[00:25:30] And so states have different rules. In Kentucky you cannot get an abortion. And in states where you cannot get an abortion, there are women who have suffered. There are women who have died because they couldn't get that care that they need. And it's just a really big deal. There are women who have to travel really far to get an abortion if they need one. And even though every state has its own laws and that's what the Supreme Court has said, that there is no federal protection anymore, the states can decide, Congress for the whole United States could make a law that gives that right back to women. It could also make a law that takes it no matter what their own state. Some states you can get an abortion with no problem and Congress could stop that, too. And so that is a very big issue in this election. Does that help?
Ellen [00:26:23] Yeah. But what does Donald Trump have to do with this?
Beth [00:26:29] One of the president's jobs-- you know how I told you when the president starts, he has to appoint a bunch of people to jobs in the executive branch?
Ellen [00:26:36] Yeah.
Beth [00:26:37] One of the president's jobs is that when a Supreme Court justice dies or retires, the president nominates someone to take that justice's place. We have nine justices on the Supreme Court. And when something happens to one of them or they leave the job, the president gets to nominate the next justice. And Donald Trump got to nominate three justices to the Supreme Court: Brett Kavanaugh, Neil Gorsuch and Amy Coney Barrett. And when he nominated them, he was explicitly looking for justices he thought would overturn Roe versus Wade.
Ellen [00:27:13] What's that?
Beth [00:27:16] I'm sorry, that's the court decision that gave us that right to have an abortion-- some right to have an abortion. So he said when he ran for election the first time, I will nominate justices who will overturn this case. And then he did. And they did. And so sometimes you'll hear Kamala Harris talk about the Trump abortion ban, because that was a real focus for him. And had he chosen different justices, it might not have happened. Does that make sense?
Ellen [00:27:48] Yeah.
Beth [00:27:48] And the other reason it's relevant is because we know how the president also has to sign laws after Congress passes them.
Ellen [00:27:58] I learned about that in second grade.
Beth [00:28:00] And the president also has what's called the power of veto.
Ellen [00:28:04] That's what you used on game day.
Beth [00:28:06] Yes. What did that mean on game day?
Ellen [00:28:08] So there were a bunch of games and everybody got one veto if they don't want to play a game. So they got to say veto. So that means they don't play that game and you choose a different game.
Beth [00:28:22] So that's kind of what happens with the president. If Congress passes a law that the president thinks is wrong for the country, the president can veto that law. Now, Congress then can pass it over the veto, but that's complicated and harder. So in this election, people are trying to figure out if Congress passed a national abortion ban and said nowhere in the country can you get an abortion, would President Trump veto it? And he hasn't been really clear on that. That's what you heard some questions about.
Ellen [00:28:53] Okay. What happened on January 6th?
Beth [00:28:58] Okay. When we talk about January 6th, we're talking about 2021.
Ellen [00:29:02] Okay.
Beth [00:29:03] So the last election was in 2020 in November. And in the last election that was Donald Trump and Joe Biden, Joe Biden won. But Donald Trump spent a lot of weeks and months--
Ellen [00:29:17] Did he say that he won by a landslide.
Beth [00:29:22] Yes. He did say that. He said that he won and he tried to take that to court and he lost in court. And on January 6th, there is a process where Congress does what's called certifying the election. Okay. So we live in Kentucky, right?
Ellen [00:29:39] Yes.
Beth [00:29:40] We vote in Kentucky.
Ellen [00:29:41] Yes.
Beth [00:29:42] The Kentucky secretary of state is in charge of running our election in Kentucky.
Ellen [00:29:47] Yes.
Beth [00:29:48] And then in Kentucky we have a group of people that go to what's called the Electoral College, where they take all of our votes that we cast individually and then they say for the state of Kentucky, we have a certain number of electoral college votes that goes to the national election. So all the states have a certain number of votes that they cast after their election. So when we all vote, that's called the popular vote. And then the Electoral College is where the states go and say, here is what our popular vote decided.
Ellen [00:30:20] So if most of our state voted for Kamala Harris, does that mean that's our popular vote?
Beth [00:30:27] That's our popular vote. And then the Electoral College vote would reflect that. So our number of electoral college votes would all go for Kamala Harris. Okay? So all the states do that process, and then they send those results from each state to Congress for Congress to certify the election, which means Congress just says we got your votes. We see what the result is. It's all done now. Donald Trump didn't want that to happen. He wanted Congress to say no, we think there was a problem in this election. You states need to go back and think about what you've done and figure out a different way. And so he had a rally and a whole bunch of people came and he talked to the crowd about how unfair it had all been and told them to go over to the Capitol and tell Congress how unfair it had all been.
Ellen [00:31:22] How can they do that?
Beth [00:31:23] Well, they can't really, but they did. So you are allowed to go over and be outside and have a rally. People do that all the time. You've seen a protest where people hold signs?
Ellen [00:31:33] Yeah, there was one in a book where they all go to I think in front of the White House, I think. And then they raised like signs. It's like women's rights stuff.
Beth [00:31:47] Exactly. So you're allowed to do that. But these people took it one other step and they got really violent and they broke into the Capitol and they hurt police officers and they vandalized the Capitol and it delayed Congress being able to count those votes. And it was a really sad day for our country. So that's what people mean when they say January 6th.
Ellen [00:32:11] That's terrifying. Is he delusional?
Beth [00:32:15] Is Donald Trump delusional?
Ellen [00:32:17] Yes.
Beth [00:32:17] What makes you say that?
Ellen [00:32:19] Well, I mean, like he kept saying, "I won by a landslide." There was also something about I lost by a whisker, but I don't know what that meant either.
Beth [00:32:30] Well, he recently said that he lost by a whisker, and so the moderator, David Muir, said, "Are you admitting now that you lost?" And he said, "No, I was being sarcastic." Ellen, the truth is, I don't know if he is delusional. I don't know if he believes what he says. I don't know if he just says things because he thinks other people will believe them. I don't know what's in his heart or his brain. So as a voter, I just have to look at what he says and what he has done. And we have a long history now of seeing what he's done. And that's how I have to make my decisions.
Ellen [00:33:03] Okay.
Beth [00:33:04] You have any other questions or things you want to talk about?
Ellen [00:33:08] No, not really. But I have this drawing.
Beth [00:33:11] You are such a great artist. And you did a little illustration of the debate. So we'll take a photo of that and maybe put it on Instagram or somewhere, if that's okay with you. Did you enjoy watching the debate?
Ellen [00:33:23] I did, because it was kind of fun to hear them kind of yell at each other and then see all of Kamala Harris's facial expressions like her just shaking her head and laughing a little bit when Donald Trump was talking.
Beth [00:33:41] There are just a lot of feelings in politics because they're just two people. So you're going to make facial expressions, you're going to laugh, you're going to say things wrong sometimes, or you're going to walk away and think I wish I had said this instead of that. I think it's helpful to remember they're just people.
Ellen [00:33:55] But I liked also hearing about when Kamala Harris was talking about how she wanted to support small businesses.
Beth [00:34:03] You liked that?
Ellen [00:34:04] Would my lemonade stand count?
Beth [00:34:07] I don't know what the program will look like. We'll have to get some more specifics on that.
[00:34:10] Music Interlude.
[00:34:21] Ellen, Sarah and I always end the show talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics. So Ellen Silvers, what's on your mind outside of politics?
Ellen [00:34:30] I've been thinking about how a lot people are always on devices for work or for watching like TV or stuff like that. And I just think that it's not good for you, really. I sometimes struggle with that problem, too. But it's not good for you. But even with people knowing that it's not good for you, they still do it.
Beth [00:35:04] Isn't it the worst when we know something is bad for us and we're just drawn to it anyway?
Ellen [00:35:11] Yeah.
Beth [00:35:11] I feel that a lot. I feel that a lot with my phone. I know I'm on my phone too much.
Ellen [00:35:15] Yeah. Same thing with, like, the TV and my iPad. Like it's hard to get off of it when you're already on it.
Beth [00:35:25] It is hard. So because it's hard to get off of it once you've picked it up, we've been trying a new strategy with your iPad. Do you want to tell people what it is and then how you feel it's working?
Ellen [00:35:37] Basically, I used to be on my iPad like every single day for a very long time. And so then I took kind of a break from it. We put sticky notes on my iPad that say like don't touch it. And mom even wrote a note on it. What does the note say mom?
Beth [00:35:58] Well, I wrote a note as though the iPad were talking to you. So it says, like, "Dear Ellen, your family and friends love you so much. I do not. Please go live your life." Go play. Practice your harp. Read a book. Do some coloring.
Ellen [00:36:12] Do yoga.
Beth [00:36:13] Do yoga. Anything else.
Ellen [00:36:16] And it says like "from iPad". We put those on and it helped me. And I thought of other activities for me to do during the day like playing. I like to make collages, reading, and occasionally maybe I watch a little show on my iPad.
Beth [00:36:43] Yeah, this is the problem because we just can't get rid of the devices completely. I guess we could, but it would be hard. Dad and I work and we work from home, which means there's not a big separation between work and home life. And so you're kind of always thinking, I'll just look at this email or I'll just get this last thing done. Or, for me, I'll read this article about this breaking news. And then, like you said, I think this is such an important insight, once you pick it up, it's really hard to put it down.
Ellen [00:37:15] Yeah. Like when you go up, you can't go back down.
Beth [00:37:20] The one screen that I never regret being on is my Kindle.
Ellen [00:37:24] Yeah, because Kindle is a book-- books. It's like your own personal library. And it doesn't exactly rot your brain as much as other stuff does. Like mom right now your phone is laying right there, but with the Kindle it stays in your room and every night you use it to read. Usually at night you have your hand massager and your Kindle or your phone in hand, but usually your Kindle and you're just reading your book. Also, you don't have to turn pages. You just press the screen and flips pages, which is really nice.
Beth [00:38:09] Yeah, It's very well designed. But I feel like with my Kindle, if you want to come talk to me while I'm reading my Kindle, it is easy for me to put it down and look up and give you my full attention. And I don't know why because I get really absorbed in my books. I love them, but it just feels easier to bring my attention back to now from the Kindle than it does from my phone. And I don't know what it is about that. But I notice with you too, you love to read and you get absorbed in a story; but if I talk to you after you've been reading, it's fine. If I talk to you and I've interrupted you when you're on your iPad, it's like, "Hello, Hello? Anybody there?" Am dancing and snapping and yelling, trying to get your attention back.
Ellen [00:38:51] Because usually I would have my headphones on and watching a show and my mom's like, "Ellen, Ellen!" You have to yell.
Beth [00:39:01] But even when you know that I'm trying to talk to you, it's still hard to get your attention back.
Ellen [00:39:05] Yeah. And I'm kind of mad that you're talking to me. I'm just like, "What?"
Beth [00:39:13] I never want to be mad that you're talking to me.
Ellen [00:39:17] And I never want to be mad that you're talking to me.
Beth [00:39:19] Yeah. And I do feel like it's something about the devices, other than Kindle, it makes everything else feel like an interruption to life when it's really the interruption to life.
Ellen [00:39:33] Even if you're-- let's say you're really happy about something and let's say you're going to Florida in a couple hours and you want to kill some time and then you get on a screen for like an hour, somebody comes and talks to you, your attitude is completely flipped. It's like you're kind of mad and upset about whatever is happening.
Beth [00:40:02] Yeah, because it feels like you've been pulled away from the thing that's most deserving of your attention, but it's the opposite. So you feel like putting the sticky notes on your iPad just as a visual reminder that this is not going to be good for you is working well?
Ellen [00:40:18] Yeah. Like today I got home from school, I was about to grab my iPad, I see a sticky note from Jane that says, "Not right now."
Beth [00:40:26] That was me.
Ellen [00:40:27] I thought it was Jane, because Jane has really weird handwriting. But yeah, it said not right now. And I was just like, okay. Okay. Not right now.
Beth [00:40:37] Because it's much easier to walk away from it when you haven't picked it up.
Ellen [00:40:40] Yeah.
Beth [00:40:41] Yeah.
Ellen [00:40:42] But the only thing I did, I just pulled up the cover to see any notifications. I didn't have any, put it back up, walked away.
Beth [00:40:50] So you said you like making collages. Do you have a different feeling when you make a collage versus when you've watched a show on your iPad?
Ellen [00:40:57] When I'm making a collage, I feel relaxed because-- so I have a collage book. It's not like cutting things out of magazines. It's like you can color stuff on it and then it's like stickers and you can put pictures in it. It's kind of relaxing to just peel the stickers off and press them on the paper. And then I usually make collages for myself or other people, and it's fun to see people's reaction when they get the collage. And I like putting them up on walls because I like decorating my walls with paper and things I've made and posters. And I like putting my own work on there because it just feels special and personal. And it's nice to put on collages on the wall because they look fun. They look pretty on the wall.
Beth [00:41:54] So, Ellen, as I was listening to you, I noticed a bunch of things. When you do a collage versus when you're on your iPad, you are often thinking about other people because you like to make them for other people. You're feeling a sense of accomplishment. You create something that you're then proud of and want to display. And you get to be sort of absorbed in something that's real, right? You're touching and coloring and sticking. And for me that's part of what I love about cooking, that I'm touching things. It's real. It's tangible.
Ellen [00:42:28] Yeah. I like cooking, too
Beth [00:42:29] But I noticed it jumped out at me that you named all these things that are special to you about making a collage that are not part of being on an iPad.
Ellen [00:42:37] Like when you walk into my room, it's like my own little personal museum. There are bunch of pictures of things I've made at school, things I've drew, things I've just made at home, things that my friends have made for me. And then posters of things I like. There's multiple Taylor Swift things. There's a Reds poster. There's a bunch of swim ribbons on the wall from things I've won.
Beth [00:43:10] And that's really neat. I know that you love on the iPad to do sort of interior design.
Ellen [00:43:17] On Toco Boca.
Beth [00:43:18] I find it so much more fun to see how you've created this museum of Ellen in your space.
Ellen [00:43:23] To do it in real life, not in a world that doesn't exist.
Beth [00:43:30] Yeah. And it's not that, again, I want to throw all our devices in the sea. Although, sometimes I do have that feeling.
Ellen [00:43:36] You said you wanted to throw my iPad in the sun.
Beth [00:43:39] Yeah, one time I did. But it is that I just want to find their place in our lives. I love my work. And my work involves being on a computer a lot. So it's not that I hate the computer; it is more just that I want to find those containers where I zip it up and I say, I'm done with this for now. And my attention is going to be on my favorite people. And you are one of them.
Ellen [00:44:02] I love talking to my friends on Messenger Kids and on text and texting my friends, but it's just nicer to live life in person.
Beth [00:44:14] Well, thanks for chatting with me about this, Ellen.
Ellen [00:44:16] Is it already over?
Beth [00:44:18] Do you have more you want to say?
Ellen [00:44:19] No, but I just didn't know it would be already over.
Beth [00:44:22] Well, it's at the end of the show. It's a short segment.
Ellen [00:44:24] Yeah, it's been 10 minutes.
Beth [00:44:25] But if there is something else on your mind, we can definitely talk about it.
Ellen [00:44:29] This segment has not been sponsored by Toca Boca.
Beth [00:44:33] That's the truth. Okay, Ellen, do you have any final thoughts? One final thought about your devices.
Ellen [00:44:39] Let's not throw them in the sun, but not always be on them every single second, every single minute, every single hour, every single day, every single week, every single month, every single year, every single decade, every single-- what's 100 years?
Beth [00:45:00] Century.
Ellen [00:45:02] Every single century. Yeah. Let's just not be on devices that much. It's okay to be on them once in a while for, like, a couple minutes each day or a little bit every week, but let's not be on them for two hours every day. Because my screen time used to be four hours and now it's like eight minutes.
Beth [00:45:28] And I think you're happier and healthier.
Ellen [00:45:29] I am.
Beth [00:45:30] All right. Thank you, Ellen.
Ellen [00:45:32] You're welcome. Except for yesterday, because I was watching Bluey yesterday for like an hour. Bye.
Beth [00:45:41] Thanks to Ellen for joining me. And thanks to all of you for spending time with us. We really hope this was helpful. We're going to show you again on Friday how we do this when Sarah sits down with her teenage son, Griffin, as well as YouTuber Brian Tyler Cohen for a conversation about those sources that are online and what teenagers are taking in as they become the politicos of their friend groups. In the meantime, don't forget to check out our show notes for information on our Boston Life show and the live stream ticket. And we will see you back here on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.
[00:46:13] Music Interlude.
Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.
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Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family. Ashley Rene. Michelle Palacios.
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