Can Iowa Shake Up the Presidential Primary?

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • NY Times Focus Group Iowa

  • Inside the Iowa Caucuses with Dr. Andy McGuire

  • Outside of Politics: The Crown

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:33] Thank you for joining us today. It is the Friday before the 2024 Iowa caucuses, the first time since the 1960s that Democrats have not had that state first on their primary calendar. But Republicans still do. And while the result seems predictable right now, we would really love for Iowans to shake up the race.  

Sarah [00:00:54] Love it.  

Beth [00:00:55] We were intrigued and given a dose of hope from a focus group conducted by Kristen Soltis Anderson, and we wanted to spend some time on that focus group before we share a conversation with Doctor Andy McGuire, who we had the pleasure of meeting in Iowa during the last cycle. Doctor McGuire has served as the Democratic Party chair during a caucus, so she has lots of expertise and was gracious enough just before the holidays to give us a view from the ground in Iowa, and we're excited to share that conversation with you. Outside of Politics, we're going to talk about the final season of The Crown, because I actually watched it because I had strep this week. That's the only way this would have happened. But I guess you're welcome, Sarah for my disease.  

Sarah [00:01:38] Before we dive into our conversations, we wanted to say surrounding the beginning of this presidential cycle, it's a tough time out there. There's just a lot of big feelings or deflated feelings, as the case may be about this election season. And we know that shows up in a lot of different ways at colleges and at corporations and in different community organizations. If you need some help navigating that, we are here for you. We still have slots open on our 2024 speaking calendar. So if you would like to have us come and talk about communication, tension, how to move through these tough moments in American life, we would love to come speak. So please reach out to Hello@pantsuitpolitics.com and let us know what your needs are and how we can be of help.  

Beth [00:02:20] Next up, we're going to talk about a focus group among Iowa voters about their presidential primary choices.  

[00:02:26] Music Interlude.  

[00:02:38] On Monday night, Iowa Republicans will caucus to weigh in on the GOP's nominating contest for president. And we were intrigued in advance of that by a focus group captured in The New York Times. This was conducted by Kristen Soltis Anderson, who I believe was the very first guest on Pantsuit Politics when we started the podcast.  

Sarah [00:03:00] What she really?  

Beth [00:03:01] I think that's right. Along with Patrick Healy and Adrian Rivera. It's a really graphically interesting way to present the results of a focus group. And Sarah, you sent it around in our group texts and said that you lost track of how many times you said wow. So I'm curious to hear what surprised and engaged you from this small group of Iowa voters.  

Sarah [00:03:24] I clicked it originally because the headline over on the side of the home page was, why would Trump win this election when he lost the last one? And I was like, excellent question. What's the answer? And then I realized there was this focus group and I'm like, okay. So I'm making lots of assumptions. When you're sitting down with a group of seven or eight Iowa Republicans, after we have all been subjected to months and months of reporting about how Donald Trump is just polling at massive numbers and is going to wall up the competition, and then you get to this focus group and they ask them what comes to mind when I say Donald Trump? And here is Elizabeth. President. That's hard. I'm sorry. Against the Constitution of the United States, uncontrolled, little egotistical love, hate, a liar, but I really liked him and I voted for him when he was president. What? How does that get you to 60%? I have questions. Many, many questions.  

Beth [00:04:27] This past weekend, I hosted the last of the Christmas gatherings, and my dad's cousin, on his way out the door of my house said to my dad, "Hey, is Beth still doing her podcast?" And my dad said, "Yeah, she's still doing it." And then I kind of came behind to say goodbye to them. And he said, "We should have talked politics." He said, "You know, this election." And I thought, oh boy, because I had no idea where this was going. And he said, "What do you think about this election, Beth?" And since I didn't know where we were going, and since the last political discussion that I had with this particular family member, who I love very much, was about Brett Kavanaugh. It was rather intense. I just said, "You know what? I am just trying to get through this year. I love this country. I love other people. I just want to get through this year without tearing each other apart. That's my big goal." And he said something like, oh, I'm biting my tongue so hard. And he started to walk out the door. And then he turned around and he said, "The thing is, if we elect the wrong man, this country is done. And these are both the wrong men."  

Sarah [00:05:34] What?  

Beth [00:05:34] And I thought, okie-dokie. And then I said, "I hear you. Thanks so much for coming. It was great."  

Sarah [00:05:42] Merry Christmas. Bye, bye, bye. Happy New year.  

Beth [00:05:42] I actually did kind of want to hear more about that, because that sentiment feels reflective of this focus group, right? That these folks are just very, very dissatisfied with the options that feel inevitable. And the youngest member of this focus group expressed kind of a hopelessness. He too has heard the barrage of coverage that Iowa is just going to go for Trump. And so what's the point of any of this? And people simultaneously seem to hate and reject that, but to reject it passively instead of actively.  

Sarah [00:06:14] We're the committee, guys. We are the committee, especially if you live in Iowa and you're a Republican. I had a similar conversation with my dad where he was like, I haven't decided who I'm going to vote for yet. And I was like, sorry. I guess, again, just from the barrage of coverage, I assume the people who are saying they're going to vote for Trump are still passionately in his camp. And that is not what was reflected in this focus group.  

Beth [00:06:42] I appreciated hearing that some of them just see him as increasingly unhinged.  

Sarah [00:06:47] Yes.  

Beth [00:06:47] No matter what your political views are, I don't think anybody likes hearing things like "Merry Christmas, everybody who's against me should rot in hell." And that's all he's capable of producing at this point. Now, I did see a reaction to his Fox News Town Hall from Megan Kelly, who said he was very on. He was very funny. You watched it and you remembered what you liked about Trump. And I think that that jived a little bit with what Nancy and his focus group had to say; that she really liked the 2016 Trump, but not the 2024 Trump. And maybe that's getting through to him, given that he did a little less of the retribution. He actually said in his Fox Town Hall he wouldn't have time for retribution because he's going to be so busy making this country beautiful and great. So maybe he's taking some notes, finally, since his back is very much up against the wall and he does need to win this election. But it's hard for me to imagine that can stick. You can take a note for a minute.  

Sarah [00:07:49] Beth, for approximately 1.5 minutes, yes, the man is capable of taking a note.  

Beth [00:07:54] And when you have this kind of lead and you have so many people who do want to vote for you, they want to want to vote for you, maybe he'll do it at the right minute and it's enough. But I was kind of encouraged by the fairly transparent disgust that these voters felt for him.  

Sarah [00:08:12] Yeah. Well, and again, this is what I've been saying from the beginning. I don't remember if it was Brittany or Nancy. I thought they had a lot of insight in this focus group (I'm just going to be honest with you) that said, like, he just won't stop. I want to talk about what we're going to do next, and he won't stop with going on and on about 2020. And y'all, he is not psychically capable of letting it go. That is not a neural pathway that he has paved that is available for him to walk. It just doesn't exist. There are not a lot of things that I am confident of in 2024. There are not a lot of things that I will say definitively, this is what I believe will happen. But this is one of them. I know that Donald Trump is incapable of letting go his anger and revenge fantasies and retribution and focus on the past in particular, because he's going to spend so much of the year in court having all that shoved in his face.  

Beth [00:09:09] I want to know then your perspective on what President Biden's campaign should do. There was a lot of fawning coverage of his January 6th commemorative speech at Valley Forge. I agree with President Biden wholeheartedly about January 6th in the last election and what all of that represents. I think the note from Nancy and Brittany that voters want to look forward, not back, is equally true about January 6th. And when I saw that he was speaking at Valley Forge, my thought was that is like the definition of preaching to the choir, taking the choir to revival. I think the people for whom that connection to Valley Forge in particular is going to be meaningful about this day are already on board, that Trump is a danger to our democratic republic. So I wonder if that's how you see it, or if you think that that's a resonant theme that he should continue to campaign on?  

Sarah [00:10:08] No, I think there are people who are tempted to stay home to say it's just the same boring guy. And the more he can get in their face and be like, I am not like him. He is a danger. Because it's not really about looking forward to January 6th. It's about saying he will do it again. He will do it again. He will shred it again. He will call people to violence. He's already doing outside the courthouse two weeks ago. So please don't forget that this is who this man is. And I think that's going to be a lot of what happens in 2024. Is everybody's going to remember who and what Donald Trump is. And it's, I guess, slightly encouraging to me that when you hear a bunch of focus group participants in Iowa who have had Donald Trump in their face for months, they're hearing that. They're hearing it, they're seeing it, they know. He's barely participating. He's not showing up. He's not talking about the future. I just don't understand why that doesn't show up in his poll numbers. That's the nut I cannot crack. If people hear it, they don't like it. They say I voted for him, but this isn't the same guy. Like, I just pray to God because I do think the caucus is so special. We've been there, we've witnessed it that they get there and see I have some other options. It doesn't have to do this. They talked to their neighbors and somebody, and enough caucuses has a convincing argument to say, like, nobody wants this matchup. Literally no one wants this matchup. So can we do something about that here in the great state of Iowa? God, I hope it's true.  

Beth [00:11:40] In her debate against Ron DeSantis, one on one, Nikki Haley said at the very end as her closing argument, "You need to ask yourself what we're actually trying to do. When you look at polling. Ron loses to Joe Biden. Trump is even with Joe Biden, it's a toss up." She said, "I beat Joe Biden by 17 points." And she was like, "That's a mandate. That's not just barely skating by. That's the House. That's the Senate. That is a mandate to do the things that I've been talking about doing. What is it that we actually want?" I thought it was such a strong message. Well delivered. Not how many Iowa caucus goers watched that debate and stayed till the very end. I have no idea, but I would not bet it's a high number. I know she's worked hard there. I also know that she has made some unfortunate slip ups that DeSantis is really trying to capitalize on. I struggle to say this. I would love to see Nikki Haley win this primary, at the same time that Nikki Haley so significantly disappoints me on the things that matter most to me. It's a real conundrum. But here we are.  

Sarah [00:12:51] It's just so weird. We have this moment in my town, Paducah, Kentucky-- maybe you've heard of it-- where there was a judge up for reelection and people were very dissatisfied with him. Very dissatisfied. The legal professionals who interact with him were very unhappy with him. And there were a lot of people running to unseat him. And there was a debate where he didn't bother to show up. And one of the people running was like, "I don't care if you vote for me or not, just don't vote for him." And I keep waiting for that moment from DeSantis or Nikki Haley or Chris Christie, and it never seems to come. I don't care who you vote for-- or really, it does matter. When I see people in these focus groups or in these reporting going, "I'm going to vote for Vivek," I'm like, why? Why would you do that? I don't understand. I don't know if people are just so individualized in their own head about their own vote, that people don't think strategically about their vote. I don't know. And it's not even a vote in a freakin caucus. So it's tough one, but it's encouraging and also maddening to read people say the things I think. He's an egotistical. He's against the Constitution of the United States. That's a Republican voter in Iowa saying that. What the what? Why is he still polling so high? I just don't understand.  

Beth [00:14:13] It will be interesting to see how Iowa caucus goers use their influence with each other. It was very, very cool to me to see people go from that undecided spot in a high school gym, to have their friends and neighbors come convince them to support a particular candidate. I thought it was fascinating. I know that that is a very romanticized view of the process. It's one story out of a big, messy state with lots of big messy dynamics going on. But I will look forward to the caucus coverage and results, and we will certainly dissect them with you here next week. We want to take you, though, deeper into Iowa with an Iowan today, and specifically with an Iowan who has real expertise on the caucus process. When we went to the Iowa caucuses in the last election cycle, we had the absolute pleasure of spending time with Doctor Andy McGuire. She has previously run for governor of Iowa. She has been the chair of the Democratic Party and overseeing the Democrats Iowa caucus process. She is also presently the president and CEO of Doctor Andy McGuire and associates, a consulting service for medical executives and hospitals. And we are so thrilled to share her perspective on the upcoming caucus with all of you. Doctor Andy McGuire. We are so thrilled to be talking with you again. I can't believe that it has been four years already since we last met you, but it's wonderful to see your face and to hear your voice. We want to hear your perspective on what it's like in Iowa right now, because you're in a truly unique situation. So tell us what's going on and how it feels.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:16:06] Well, it certainly is unique. Off your caucuses, what we call them when we have an incumbent, are always different anyhow when Barack was running for a second term. It's certainly much calmer here. And we get an onslaught of the Republican side. I laugh because people came for Thanksgiving and they were just overwhelmed by the number of commercials every minute on our TV. So it's the Republican time, and they're very busy and they're here all the time. But for the Democrats, it's certainly quieter than it is most years in a caucus.  

Sarah [00:16:39] And it's going to be that way moving forward. Now that the Iowa caucus is going-- first, I mean, you have played such an instrumental role. How are you feeling about that?  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:16:47] That's tough. But I will tell you, and maybe I'm just an optimist, I'm not so sure that we're done yet. And for this cycle, certainly we are. But like I said, in an off cycle like this, it's not a big one. Anyhow, they always said they would revisit this. I think Iowa does this extremely well and it's not easy. As you guys were here, it's really an amazing feat to get all those people to 1800 different precincts with three people in each precinct volunteering to get all of those results in. And certainly in the last caucus, which I was not in charge of, did not go as well in mind. That's a very difficult thing to do. And also to have well say 10 or 12 candidates come in and you have to put them up and have greetings for them. People have made up their mind. People are so generous with their time. They go to see them. They listen to them. It's really something that I think people are going to not understand how hard that is. And I wonder if in the future we will still be somehow part of the number one part.  

Beth [00:17:56] When you talk about how it's not easy, I wonder if you would be willing to just personally share what it has required of you to host these. Because when we were in your home, there was evidence everywhere of how much it required of the people of Iowa to host these campaigns.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:18:13] It does. Certainly almost all of us that are involved in politics have had house guests. Howard Dean, we were his first Democratic office in our home. And I didn't realize we could get quite that big, but it did. It takes a certain amount of understanding of where these guys come from. They are people, and they also get tired on the road and they need some support. Howard had a personal problem with one of his kids while we were here, and I can remember it was back in the landline time, and he had to get on the phone and we all scampered. The entire family scampered to the other side of the house so he could have some privacy. So it's an interesting route, but I think what that does by having to get to know those people as we do, I think you have a whole different idea of who they are. That kind of adversity or that kind of closeness really delivers what a person is like. And I think if you want someone to be president, we want someone with that kind of character and morals and just center core. And I think you see that when you get that close to people.  

Sarah [00:19:20] Well, I'm just thinking, as we're mourning the death of Rosalynn Carter and thinking about his sort of resurgence or just surgence at the Iowa caucus, and now Jimmy Carter is recognized as such a person of character, what have you seen over your many years of doing this? Like, what surprises you? Not just meeting them in person and seeing their personality, but how that character plays out. And what is different in order to have surge or a resurgence or the momentum that we talk about so much in politics, what does that take in a place like Iowa with the caucus?  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:19:59] Jimmy Carter certainly what we think of as the first real winner of the Iowa caucus, even though he was a winner, I think [inaudible] actually came in ahead of him, but he was the first person. He started something that I think has stayed tried and true till now is that that moral core. You could see it in Jimmy Carter. We had just come through a time when we didn't have a moral core in our president. And so I think people were really looking for that. And everybody here has a Jimmy Carter story. I don't know anyone who could pick him up from the airport or went to this with him or went to that with him. Rosalyn and even-- was it Amy? They became part of Iowa and that is what we kind of do. Lots of candidates. Vivek right now has a house here. He was right next to me in the turkey [inaudible] advert cracked up. There he is. But you become a part of Iowa, which I think, we're very Midwestern. You guys know, it's a very get to know you kind of place. We'd like to touch a couple of times. I've been seeing you three times. I'm not going to even think about voting for you. So I do think Jimmy Carter was the real idea of what we can do here. And he would not have been president had it not been for Iowa, and I'm sure of that. And Rosalyn was a part of that. And while you see over the years how those two have aged in such an incredible way that now he's this incredible figure which when he left office, he was not quite so much. And so it's lovely to see that happen.  

Beth [00:21:36] Putting the policy aside, are there differences that you observe in how the Republican caucus unfolds in Iowa versus when you have a full Democratic field?  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:21:47] They are really similar. I laugh because we're so opposite on policy, but the actual coming together of people and having people in your homes is the same. We used to send a tracker from the Iowa Democratic Party to all the Republican staff. And so you get a real feel for what they're like. And I remember in Jeb Bush's video, there was one of our tracker hugging him. So, I mean, it's very down to earth people doing what they do. And I got very close to the Republican chair of our state because the two of us were putting together the caucus. And even though we may disagree on almost everything, he's still the chair. And I don't agree with anything on policy. I'll just keep saying that. But, man, he's a good person. And we worked on this and we made it good together. And he is still my friend. Like I said, I don't agree with him on much, but I do agree that we're friends.  

Sarah [00:22:46] Well, what are you seeing that's different though? I can't think of another Iowa caucus where, first of all, there was a former president running who's occupying the field in this way. I mean, it feels very, very different than previous caucuses on either side.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:23:01] It is. And it's really shaking right now. I'm sure you guys feel it with what's happening with the who just endorsed Nikki Haley, the Koch brothers. It's really having my back here. We're having our own rumbling because our governor, Kim Reynolds, a Republican, has endorsed DeSantis. So she's very popular. Her popularity is getting less a lot, but she's I think just under 50% but still very popular. She is running on the airwaves like crazy endorsing him on full throttle. Everything you can do. Our leader, Vander Plaats, I don't like him. He's the head of the family leader. He also endorsed DeSantis. And so I don't know what's happening here because it's too soon. It's been the last ten days-ish. I don't know what will happen, but it's shaken here a little bit. I wonder if Trump will drop. And he is running like an incumbent here. It's a very strange feeling. Almost like some people they don't have a caucus. They already have their pick. And then there's the other ones just trying to figure out Nikki Haley is so personable. When you get into this living room part, she is really personable. And everybody I talked to this matter goes, she would just be an incredible presence. So she's really making those waves. And that's what you do in Iowa. So she has that. You have incumbency and the big endorsements on the other side for DeSantis. And then you have Trump as this incumbent. I'm waiting for Ann Selzer to put out an Iowa poll and tell us how it's shaking.  

Beth [00:24:33] Yeah. I wonder if you're hearing thoughts about the fact that Trump isn't working as hard for this, because when we were there it was clear that the expectation was that you work for it, and that was not an entitlement on the part of Iowa voters. It was like a sense of responsibility that this is an important piece of our vetting process.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:24:54] Yeah, we're like that. He has not been here as much, though. He's been here more than I would have thought he would be. I don't think he really enjoys being in Iowa. I mean, he's hosts his big rallies, that's not Iowa. Iowa is very living room. It's starting with 20 people and then 30 people and seeing people one on one. There are people who will not vote for you if it's not a one on one conversation. Donald Trump doesn't do a lot of those. So it is really interesting how that's playing. Northwest Iowa, we have a place up there and I drive through northwest Iowa all the time. My husband's from there. And it is such Trump country. It's still the flags are all up. Things I can't say on here show up. Always amazes me. It's a very Trump area. And I saw my first DeSantis yard sign yesterday. I have not seen a Nikki Haley yard sign. I have seen a Nikki Haley bumper sticker. I saw the other day. But it's Trump land. And so if they're going to do it, it'll be interesting if they can do it because they'll do it the Jimmy Carter way. They all done it by getting in living rooms. And DeSantis is a little less like that. Nikki Haley is fabulous at it. I will tell you if Vivek is pretty good at it too.  

Sarah [00:26:11] Yeah, he seems to like him. People like him when they're around him.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:26:13] Yeah, the Turkey Trot. That was a large trotting turkeys.  

Sarah [00:26:20] Well, I wonder, as you look back, what other changes you're seeing. We're seeing Trump sort of break the mold coming in and acting like an incumbent. I mean, in other ways, he's broken the mold. As you look back, where do you see the drift? Do you see the sort of nationalization, even in a place like the caucus, where it's supposed to be about living rooms and everything?  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:26:41] Yeah, no, that's exactly where I was going. It's sort of sad. I mean, it used to be a lot of local issues sort of make people have to think about something. I can still remember they asked one of the presidential candidates about the deer issue, and the guy looked at him like, "The deer issue? Well, we have John Deer as one of our biggest employers." We also have those little guys with the horns that get in front of the car. The deer issues actually had to do with the little guys with the horns. Who actually there was one right outside my window. We always laughed about that. Or ethanol things that are very important. Corn prices, soybean prices. And we have a huge insurance financial industry here. You know how that's going to shake out. Those used to be much more forefront. It is now so nationalized. We had a mayor's race that was nationalized. It made no sense at all. The person ran on being pro-choice. That's not a city issue. So the issue is my sidewalk got a problem  

Sarah [00:27:39] Or the deer. The deer also.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:27:41] Exactly. And the deer, that's a problem. But I will say we are also seeing, I think, some angst in the Republican Party. There are a lot of people and I don't know if they will show up in caucuses because of the way it is this year. But I don't know if you know, but we had a Warren County race for auditor that just (kind of use the word again) shook us. So it was a place I think Trump won. And I didn't get the exact number, but 17 points, it's a very red county. And we had an auditor that was put in by the entirely Republican Warren County. Supervisors are all Republicans. They put in this guy who was an election denier as the auditor. And Republicans, Democrats, Independents came out of the woodwork, got 3500 signatures in a matter of days, got a special election and beat him 2 to 1. So there's a lot of people I know who aren't very interested in the Republican primary or from caucus because they're kind of not sure they want to be Republicans anymore. And the Independents are not as enthused for the Republicans as they have been in prior years. So that may be something that comes about. Overall, the turnout for that election in Moore County, it's a little tiny place, but it was huge. So I do hear that a lot. That's where Nikki Haley comes in. I think she draws the independents or people who are having angst with where the Republican Party is going. She draws them the most.  

Beth [00:29:11] There's been a lot of speculation about whether Democrats will show up in the Republican primaries. What's your sense of that on the ground?  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:29:20] Well, they changed a few things to try to stop that. Number one, we are having the Democratic caucus at the same time. It will be the start of our preference cards, which then will actually not come out until Super Tuesday.  

Beth [00:29:36] Interesting.  

Sarah [00:29:35] Okay.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:29:37] So if you're a diehard Democratic you're going to the Democratic caucus. However, there were a lot of people who talked about going over. And people have done this for years, especially I can remember on the Barack Obama the second one. Well, don't tell anyone. I didn't do it, but some people in my family did. I did that because I didn't want to get in that. But I voted for Rick Santorum, and then he won. So that's been happening for years. They also made a new rule. And I don't keep up on the Republican rules very much, but I think it's two weeks before the caucus. You have to be registered as a Republican. It's same day for everything else usually. So they made it two weeks before. I think they're trying to make people not, "Oh, I think I'll go do that. That'd be fun." They have to actually think about it in advance.  

Sarah [00:30:22] Interesting.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:30:22] And it also keeps them from coming to ours if they're registered in advance. Because we would get that and not let them in. I think there's a few things they did to try to stop that, and I've never been impressed that it actually put anyone over the top to have a crossover.  

Beth [00:30:36] When we were last there, there were, it seemed, more journalists in Iowa than Iowans. And I wonder if that's still true? We're talking to you at the end of November. How close does the caucus feel to you today?  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:30:52] Tomorrow? It's funny, they're definitely getting on fire here. Every day, all day long people are here. The journalists are here. I don't see as many of them because they're not calling me that much. But I still talk to a few of them. But yes, they're here. And that part of it, just because I think everybody's looking for some sort of sunshine, some sort of narrowing of the gap so that it's a race. Especially people who don't feel like Trump really represents their party. I don't. At this point, I mean, I'll see what we see in a couple of weeks with the endorsements, but I don't think it's going to be a race. And so I think that's kept a few people from being here and talking to people. If we had three or four people that we're all vying for, kind of like some of our previous primaries, I think we'd have a lot more. But yeah, it's going to be very interesting with the holidays and stuff. January 15th is tomorrow.  

Sarah [00:31:47] Word. That's so true.  

Beth [00:31:48] It's so true.  

Sarah [00:31:49] I felt that when you said that in my bones. Well, thank you so much for joining us here at Pantsuit Politics. I still think back so warmly about our time in your home. You are such a welcoming presence, and just put the big shiny bow on our experience in Iowa which was just fantastic. So thank you so much for joining us and giving us an update from Iowa.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:32:11] Yeah, thanks for what you do. I listen to you guys, I laugh. You guys definitely take a take on some things, that it's so refreshing.  

Sarah [00:32:18] Thank you.  

Beth [00:32:19] Thank you.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:32:20] Yeah, I tell my friends because they like politics but they don't like some of the vitriol-- I guess is the word. Just some messed up things. And you guys have a way of looking at it in a very optimistic-- and let's face it, it's our system. We have to be optimistic about it or what are we going to do? So glad you guys keep that message alive. 

Beth [00:32:38] I think that's why we connected so much with Iowa, because there is a sense on the ground there. If this is our system and we have to keep doing it. And so thank you for being such a big part of that for so many years.  

Dr.  Andy McGuire [00:32:49] You got it.  

[00:32:49] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:33:06] Thank you to Doctor McGuire for spending time with us again and for her expertise. Sarah, I have been very sick this week and unable to do absolutely anything except lie somewhere with the television on. And I was so frustrated because we had some good space in our schedule to really work. This week I was going to read a bunch of books, really catch up with the Supreme Court outside of Trump issues, and I couldn't do it. And I thought, what can I do that feels somewhat productive? And I knew that you at some point we're going to want to talk about The Crown. And so I watched every episode of the last season of The Crown.  

Sarah [00:33:47] Yeah, I was so surprised because have you watched other seasons of The Crown?  

Beth [00:33:51] No, I have watched episodes here and there from other seasons. I've just never gotten into it enough to want to sit and really watch it comprehensively. But the last season was easier to get into because it's things I remember and I didn't really need the other context to be able to jump in.  

Sarah [00:34:08] Well, it's a bummer because when you talk about the actual show itself, I think, and the quality of the episodes, I do think that the season one is probably the best, because it centers so much of the conflict and drama on Elizabeth herself. And Claire Foy's performance just slays. And just sort of figuring out like what her role is. But I think The Crown argues, and history shows that she figured that out pretty quick. I loved the moment in the finale where she said, don't go looking for Elizabeth Windsor, you buried her long ago. Claire Foy shows back up, which I thought was great. So many other seasons were really about her family. I mean, it is a show called The Crown, but it is about the royal family as well as her. And I think Peter Morgan, the creator of show, sort of struggled because he had to go back to her at the end after spending so much time on Diana and Charles. I actually thought the William and Kate portions of the final season were the least interesting.  

[00:35:09] I did too.  

[00:35:10] And so, I liked it. I loved that Olivia Colman and Claire Foy showed back up, and we're making this argument to her about whether or not she should quit or see it through to the end. I loved that portion. But I do think it was kind of difficult because how do you make a show where the protagonist is a steady presence who does not present to her family or the outside world, any manifestation of internal or external conflict? It's a tough one. But I love the show because I think it is a fascinating world. My favorite part was when Claire Foy was like, it's a terrible system. It's a terrible system to the people in it. And I could not agree more. And I think The Crown shows that over and over and over again. Even the final season with Foy Charles in love with this woman for 30 years, having to go ask his mom if he can marry her. Like in what universe? I don't care how much money you have. Does that sound like a fun life to live?  

Beth [00:36:00] I thought this final season was a surprisingly sympathetic portrayal of Charles. Like, extremely generous to him.  

Sarah [00:36:07] Yeah, and I don't think it's unfounded. I have become more sympathetic to Charles over the years as well. You know what it reminds me of? You know how we always talk about United State senators and back in the day they were like half drunk, not smart. We don't love them now, but we've made some progress. And she makes that case basically in her speech at the end. And I thought, that's true. The Prince of Wales was a hot mess for most of British history. Like, it's a crappy gig. It's a crappy gig especially if it's your mom who's the queen for lots of probably sexist reasons. But they were just brats or drunks or some combination of the two. And he is not that thing. I read a lot about the episodes around Princess Diana. The reporting is that he was devastated that there was weeping much like portrayed in the show, that he fought to give her the sort of honor and place in history that she deserved. I think he loves his sons. I don't think he is a perfect person, but I think considering what he has lived through and the system he has had to survive, he could be worse. Generational progress. Let's just take it.  

Beth [00:37:20] Well, the themes that I thought were interesting as someone who doesn't love the monarchy or have a lot of interest in the royal family in general, were parenthood. That her absence, even though they're all together all the time, it seems, there's not any togetherness. And the effect on Charles and the generational effect on William and Harry. I thought that was really interesting. I thought that the whole last episode's focus on planning your own funeral was fascinating. Do you think about your own funeral very often?  

Sarah [00:37:53] Absolutely. I have a note in my phone. Are you kidding me.  

Beth [00:37:55] Me too. All the time. Like when I first heard Lin-Manuel Miranda sing, I imagined death so much it feels more like a memory. I was like, yes, thank you. Does everybody? I thought everybody did. Maybe. So I thought that was really interesting. And then I liked the sort of purposefulness theme, especially as it related to Margaret and Harry. I think my favorite episode was the Margaret episode, The Ritz. But I liked hearing Prince Philip's reflections on Harry needing to have purpose. Kind of everyone in the family saying we worry about Harry because it's so hard to be number two. I thought that was all well done.  

Sarah [00:38:32] Yeah, Margaret's always great. Margaret's been great from the beginning. Listen, that's your girl.  

Beth [00:38:36] Helena Bonham Carter. I know. I'm tempted to watch that season because I love her.  

Sarah [00:38:41] Got to go back and watch it because she's great as Margaret. I thought the pieces where they show William and Queen Elizabeth with a real closeness of relationship and similarity of personality, was great. And again, seems to be founded in reality by all reports. I thought it was good and fair that Peter Morgan did not leave it where I wish we could have left it, where they're closely bonded and have each other's backs after their mother's death. But said, no, this pushes two brothers who have every reason to be bonded through tragedy apart. That's how crappy and inhumane this system is at these two men who went through the fire of their mother's incredibly tragic death still are at each other's throats. That's so heartbreaking to me. Every time they come on screen on The Crown I'm like, I wish they were talking. It just breaks my heart for the two very real people that this show is based on. And it's like we would watch it and I'd say, "I think that's accurate." Nicholas is like, this isn't real. Just remember, this is not real. And it is such a mind bend to watch this show. When we were watching the shows about Princess Diana's death, Nicholas was like, "This is such a bummer." And I'm like, "Yeah, join me. I've been here since 1997." I found it incredibly difficult to watch those episodes. I was devastated when she died. I still think it's so heartbreaking. And now my boys are the age of her boys when she died, which makes it even worse. She was so young. You don't realize it until you're our age and you realize how young 36 is. And it's just, oh God. I was like, why am I doing this to myself? I do not want to relive this moment in my life. It sucked enough the first time. But I thought what he did with the Al-Fayed family was interesting and good and fair. Again, like what happens when you get caught up in the system, even in the periphery. And the whole time I'm just like Nicholas's personal Wikipedia. Did that actually happened? I'm like, yes, yes, no, yes.  

Beth [00:40:44] It was harsh, I thought, as to the Al-Fayed father. And I also thought it was harsh about Kate Middleton's mother. That theme of parenthood, again, was really striking, and I was surprised by how sympathetic it was to Charles when you contrast that with Dodi Fayed, and father and Kate Middleton's mother. And that felt a little off to me. But I understand the dramatic interpretation has to be a dramatic interpretation.  

Sarah [00:41:11] You know, it's so interesting. So many people say that about this portrayal of Al-Fayed.. And, weirdly, I did not feel that. Not because I didn't think some of his machinations were terrible. I don't know how accurate they are. Most of the reporting says they're not far off. I think it was probably more sympathetic to Dodi than it deserved to be, and less sympathetic to Muhammad than it deserved to be. But overall, I thought in the end it was really human. Like maybe he did do this. Did he deserve what happened? You know what I mean? Like maybe he was pulling the strings. Do you think he still wasn't devastated when his son died? He was. He was heartbroken. He was broken in two about it. And I thought that part was really fair and heartbreaking and sad. I was sad for him. I wasn't mad at him at the end. I was like, oh God, it wrecked his life too. And that's heartbreaking.  

Beth [00:42:10] Well, and to the extent that the piece that I felt was like awful and his actions was accurate, it increases the heartbreak. It increases the suffering. The sense of responsibility that he might feel for how they ended up. The parallel that I kept thinking about watching the Diana episodes was Taylor Swift, because she seems to me to be the closest equivalent we have had to that level of fame and obsession. I was thinking about a video I saw on Instagram of her just like getting out of the car to walk into the recording studio and the flashes of camera that you could see, which I don't think about so much anymore because everyone's phone is a camera. That kind of pop, pop, pop is less common than it used to be, and she still is enduring it, and she still is enduring the long lens. And she has the new factor of drones that fly over places where she's been, people tracking her movements with GPS and stuff. And I thought, I personally need to take a lesson here and back off because I enjoy that Taylor's out to dinner with whomever coverage. I have kind of allowed Instagram to become like the tabloid rack at the grocery store for me with her, and that is not fair. It just looks so miserable, even though I think Taylor Swift handles the press really well. And The Crown suggested that Princess Diana was aware of the paparazzi and handling it in her own way too.  

Sarah [00:43:36] Well, as I mentioned, I have been thinking about this a lot since 1997. I would say that Taylor Swift is a little different because she produces something.  

Beth [00:43:47] Sure, different in a million ways, but just the pure level of thing.  

Sarah [00:43:50] Yeah, different. Producer. And I think that the psychic lift is different. When you have fans, you care for them and you're producing something. Now, the loss of privacy, I just think people blow it off so easily. They're rich. Who cares? And that argument makes me so mad because I just don't think you understand until you're in the midst of it. And I think that it is dehumanizing and scary and overwhelming in a way that is just impossible to know until you know. I think that the portrayal of Princess Diana on The Crown is also very sympathetic. I loved her so much. I still love her. I still root for her children. But I think for a lot of reasons, she had a lot of trauma in her childhood. She never had a chance to grow up, to go to college, to go live independently for any real, sustained period of time before she was tossed off the deep end and to this royal system. I think she had a lot of gifts, but I think she struggled mentally a lot of times. If you if you're consumed with Princess Diana coverage in the way that I have been for several years, she was very dramatic. Like this sort of, I think, portrayal we have of Charles rolling his eyes at her is not fair to either of them because I think there was something there, but it was not so simple. It's not just some girl pitch in a fit. She was really struggling and I'm not sure she ever really got the sort of mental health or stability she really needed.  

[00:45:20] I mean, even think about that moment in the Crown where they fly in to see her psychic. Does that strike you as a particularly healthy or stable way to approach that loss of privacy or press scrutiny? Of course not. And, I mean, there's of lots of stories about her like that. And this is not a criticism of her. What else was she supposed to do? I just don't think she ever from her family, definitely not from the royal family or even was allowed to on her own. That's what makes her death so tragic. I think if she'd had some time to just take a breath and figure out who she was and what she wanted and what she cared for-- and I think The Crown was trying to give us that to, give us this hope that maybe she was getting there more than we realized. But I don't know if she ever did. And I think that that's what so hard. And that's what puts the Queen in such stark contrast, because I think what Philip says at the end is 100% correct. Like she was a different breed. She took this role very differently. She was different from Diana, obviously, in a million different ways. But that whole thing about it's never going to be the same like we'll just watch the temples burn and the walls fall from our place of peace, I thought, yeah, that sounds about right. That sounds about right. Unless on the back of Kate Middleton, they can stretch it out a little bit longer. But I don't know.  

Beth [00:46:46] I am not obsessed with Princess Diana and totally got from the Crown everything that you said. That she struggled. That she was impulsive. That she wasn't super grounded, even allowing herself to be derailed on that jet to Paris when she was trying to get back home. Someone of her stature who has their feet on the floor would have said, "No. I said, I'm going home. Take me home."  

Sarah [00:47:11] Yeah.  

Beth [00:47:12] And I agree with you that the suggestion was she was recognizing that toward the end. That she didn't say yes to the proposal because she was recognizing that that she was about to really commit to being with the boys. And that made it so much more sad. And I regret for William and Harry that portrayal is out there. That feels a little cruel to me, to them, in service of the viewer, which I think is tough.  

Sarah [00:47:39] Well, the cruelty is at the end of that investigation where they say if she just put her seatbelt on, she probably would have lived. Well, I've known that for a long time.  

Beth [00:47:47] So many layers of cruelty.  

Sarah [00:47:48] I guess I remember that investigation. I've held that in my head for a long time. Like all this conspiracy theory. If she just put her seatbelt on, she would have survived.  

Beth [00:47:57] Well, it's hard to make a drama about recent history or ancient history or any kind of history and remember what you're watching. And I think that was tough about this, but I enjoyed it. I'm very tempted to talk with you about funeral plans, but it is Friday and that feels a bit unfair to do. So we'll just leave it there for now. Thank you all so much for joining us. We always value and appreciate your time. If you enjoyed our show today, we hope that you'll share it with people in your lives and continue the conversation. We will be back with you next Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.  

[00:48:29] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

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