The First GOP Presidential Primary Debate

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • The Fox News Republican Presidential Primary Debate

  • Trump and Tucker

  • Outside of Politics: RushTok

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:33] Welcome to Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Today, we are going to discuss the first GOP presidential primary debate, which took place in Milwaukee on Wednesday night. We will also talk a little about Donald Trump's counter-programming to the debate with former Fox News host Tucker Carlson. And stick around. Outside of Politics, because at the request of just about everybody in DMs, we're going to talk about Rush talk.  

Sarah [00:00:54] We received some truly fantastic listener messages this week. There were excellent questions about the Georgia indictment and the legal swirl around Donald Trump. There was a message from someone who gave us some context about one of our current favorite judges. Beth finally learned what the CI. stand for. Are you going to tell the people what Robert McBurney middle initials stand for?  

Beth [00:01:12] It's Charles Iverson. Don't we all feel like we should have a secret handshake now of our own because we know that? It made me so happy.  

Sarah [00:01:18] Amazing. [Inaudible], she's like, I just went and got the yearbook. Amazing. Y'all are amazing. And then there was this completely gorgeous message from a listener who described her life over the past few years as she's listened. And she said that she always feels a few degrees off from average, but that in listening to us she never feels ignored or dismissed in our conversations and how we make her feel less lonely. I want to say it because I know y'all are going to laugh, but it did make me cry.  

Beth [00:01:45] I wrote just a few degrees off average and her name on a post-it note and put it in my studio space. It touched me so much and inspires me to really think about everybody in our audience as we do our work. So thank you for writing to us this week. Please keep the conversations coming.  

Sarah [00:01:59] We're going to cover a lot today, but if you want more assessment of the state of the GOP and its candidates, Beth put out some really great More to Say about Vivek. She did a particularly helpful deep dive. And as always, you can find more about becoming a premium member in our show notes or on our website.  

Beth [00:02:14] Next up, we will explore the details of the first Republican presidential debate.  

[00:02:18] Music Interlude.  

[00:02:34] We watched the debate last night. Eight people came to Milwaukee. I was trying to think of a way to structure this conversation Sarah and wondered if maybe we could just say, like, what do we think everyone was trying to do? And did they do it? What do you think?  

Sarah [00:02:54] Everyone was trying to have a moment. Everybody wants a moment. Everybody wants to capture the moment or have the energy or have the viral clip. And I think the only two people who accomplished that were Nikki Haley and Vivek. I think those are the only two that had any sort of real energy over the course of the debate. Now, if anybody was actually trying to beat Donald Trump, which confusingly I don't think was anyone's goal, no one achieved that.  

Beth [00:03:31] Yeah, I think this is interesting because more than just having a moment, it almost felt like a debate for the number two slot in the field or maybe for the possibly could be Trump versus who's going to be sort of the establishment candidate. It almost felt like we were trying to thin the field to three or something. It seemed like this debate was more about where should the Republican big donor money go next if they don't want it to be Trump. It just made for a weird night.  

Sarah [00:04:03] There were flashes of normality again, often perpetuated by Nikki Haley, where she was honest. She would say, "Look, Republicans were the spenders. Trump administration racked up trillions of dollars in spending."  

Audio Play Back (Nikki Haley) [00:04:18] The truth is that Biden didn't do this to us. Our Republicans did this to us, too. When they passed that $2.2 trillion COVID stimulus bill, they left us with 90 million people on Medicaid, 42 million people on food stamps. No one has told you how to fix. I'll tell you how to fix it.  

Sarah [00:04:36] She owned the fact that the Republican Party's current approach to abortion politics is not winning them any voters, and they can't have a national ban in the Senate, and they should be honest about that.  

Audio Play Back (Nikki Haley) [00:04:48] We need to stop demonizing this issue. This is talking about the fact that unelected justices didn't need to decide something this personal because it's personal for every woman and man. Now it's been put in the hands of the people. That's great. When it comes to a federal ban, let's be honest with the American people and say it will take 60 Senate votes. It will take a majority of the House. So in order to do that, let's find consensus. Can't we all agree that we should ban late term abortions? Can't we all agree that we should encourage adoptions? Can't we all agree that doctors and nurses who don't believe in abortion shouldn't have to perform them? Can't we all agree that contraception should be available? And can't we all agree that we are not going to put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty if she gets an abortion?  

Sarah [00:05:35] There was like a flash where she was talking about Donald Trump as the most unpopular politician in America, where I thought, can't any of you dummies follow her lead? Like, I don't know where Chris Christie was. I don't know why he thought constitutionalism was his winning argument and prosecuting the case against Donald Trump. But when she said that, I was like, yes, why don't all of y'all say he's lost. He lost 2020. He lost 2022, the midterms. Like, we lost that. Does anybody want to win? Anybody here want to win? No, okay. We just want to talk about Biden. It was just bananas. I don't understand the strategy at all.  

Beth [00:06:14] I think it is hard for them to say he lost because once a week you could look at a poll or a focus group where voters say it's more important to feel represented by the candidate than to actually win the election. Like the Republican primary base (and I think this is especially true in Iowa) I don't know that they care that much about winning. Or like you said, the last time we talked about this, I think some of them are convinced that Joe Biden loses no matter what. And Chris Christie really tried to make that electability argument. I won in a blue state. I can govern with a divided legislature. And I just don't think that there's an audience for that at this stage of the primary.  

Sarah [00:06:56] No.  

Beth [00:06:58] About Nikki Haley, I can't judge my reaction to her very fairly because my Instagram DMs I think over represent women who used to be Republicans and are not quite comfortable being Democrats now. So all of the voices that I sort of think about when I watch her, I know that there is this contingent of person out there who really would love for Nikki to pop and really want someone to root for. And I thought she was spectacular in the moment when she just took Vivek apart about foreign policy.  

Audio Play Back (Nikki Haley) [00:07:36] A win for Russia is a win for China. We have to know that Ukraine is the first line of defense for us. And the problem that Vivek doesn't understand is he wants to hand Ukraine to Russia. He wants to let China eat Taiwan. He wants to go and stop funding Israel. You don't do that to friends. What you do instead is you have the backs of your friends. Ukraine, it's a front line of defense. Putin has said once Russia takes Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics are next. That's a world war. We're trying to prevent war. Look at what Putin did today. He killed Prigozhin. When I was at the U.N. the Russian ambassador suddenly died. This guy is a murderer and you are choosing a murderer over a great American country.  

Beth [00:08:23] I loved the abortion moment. I think that was such a smart articulation of how the vast majority of people feel on abortion. That was, to me, right at the center of the American public about abortion and very well done. I loved the conversation about spending. If she were this Nikki Haley all of the time, I would feel really confident saying I'm going to vote for her in this primary and I would feel really confident in saying if she were the president that would be okay, because there are a lot of things that she said that I really liked. The trouble for me is I just think she's very inconsistent and I think she has bad advisers. And I'm curious to see where she goes from here. If this turns out to accomplish what she was trying to accomplish last night and if it opens some money up for her and some of the DeSantis-Tim Scott backers come her way, maybe that positive feedback will keep her in this lane. But I don't know.  

Sarah [00:09:21] I agree we have an over-representation of people who her approach last night appeals to. However, I did watch the debate with my 14 year old son, Griffin, who is definitely not a middle-aged woman who used to be a Republican. And at one point he was like, I don't like her, but I don't like her the least. Even he could see the reasonableness of what she was saying. And I said to him I think if she ran against Joe Biden, she would win.  

Beth [00:09:51] I think that's true too. I agree with that.  

Sarah [00:09:53] Yeah, I do. I think that she would. I had a conversation with my friend Elizabeth, who's like one of my little focus group people. You have those people in your life that aren't political hobbyists that are persuadable, voted for John McCain but voted for Joe Biden or whatever, who I think are super interesting. And I always kind of listened closely to their reactions. And she was just like, I just don't want to do this again. I don't want to do Biden-Trump again, just tell me when it's 2028. I'll just wait for new people to come around the next time. I think they'll vote. But I think if it ends up being Biden Trump again, which I think it will, I think there's an expectation among many people, including many in our audience, that it's just going to be this dark time and it's going to be a terrible, stressful relive. And I think it's going to feel like a deflated balloon. I think everybody's going to be like, ugh. I think we might be surprised by how low energy that election might be just because everybody's over it. And not everybody, obviously, they're going to nominate him. But I think there is a sense of desperate sense that people want a new type of candidate, a new type of debate presented to them. And I think that's why even in a Republican primary where Donald Trump seems to just be dominating every poll that someone like Vivek can surge and take up a lot of energy because he is energetic, he is the youngest person up there and he has a diverse background. And I think he appeals to people for that reason, because I think deep down nobody wants to see that rematch.  

Beth [00:11:38] Yeah, I think Nikki would energize a lot of people who are really deflated by the Biden-Trump rematch possibility. I think it will be much easier to elect a woman Republican president before a woman Democrat. I think that she is smart enough and has a good record that could be talked about in a more bipartisan way in a general election from her time as governor of South Carolina. And I think that she learned a lot from being the ambassador to the United Nations. It comes across so clearly. She sounds to me quite different than she did when she was stumping for Marco Rubio in 2016. I begrudged her the service and the Trump administration, but I can see that she took from it what she came for. And so I'm kind of pulling for her in that way.  

Sarah [00:12:27] I just want to say one more time that the American people elected a woman for president, the Electoral College didn't. Because I just think it becomes self-perpetuating that we are sexist and we don't believe a woman can lead. And it might have to be a conservative woman, but more people voted for Hillary Clinton. That's not how the Electoral College fell out, but it's just so hard because of our system to talk about the electoral reality and have it become this conversation about where people are generally, this sort of 'royal we'. And I just want to like always point out that that's not where the 'royal we' is now electorally. It sucks. Yeah, I would argue that the deck is stacked, but more people voted for Hillary Clinton. They were comfortable with not just any woman, but a very liberal woman being president. It just the Electoral College was unsuccessful. I just feel like it becomes self-perpetuating if we don't remind ourselves of that all the time.  

Beth [00:13:23] Yeah, I'm happy to amend my comment and say it would be easier for a woman to win the Electoral College and actually win the presidency as a Republican. But I also always feel like it's important to say that is the system that we have today. The Electoral College is how you become the president today. And I don't want to get into fantasy land where we're going to change that in advance of the next election. When I think about the difficulty in changing that system, which I would support a conversation about and action toward, but that is like a long way from where we are today. Best case scenario, if we all agreed today (all of us) that that's what we should do, I think it would take 10 years to get there even if we all worked with urgency toward it. So I don't want to be in denial about that either. So, Vivek...  

Sarah [00:14:06] Vivek.  

Beth [00:14:08] Vivek interests me more than most of this field. I think he is an excellent candidate to be Trump successor because his fun is there. This is the problem for Ron DeSantis. He's miserable. You can tell he is not enjoying a bit of this.  

Sarah [00:14:24] And Mike Pence.  

Beth [00:14:25] And they all deeply despise Vivek. It came across so clearly that they are offended by his presence in the race. They are offended that he's polling ahead of most of these folks who've been in public life for a very long time. And that's just fuel for him. It's just like Trump. Beat me up some more. Heads I win. Tails you lose. I just enjoy the fight of it and I enjoy the process. And I think that you constantly prove my point by beating on me. And I was not surprised to see this morning that Trump you know was true thing about him or whatever, and thanking him for acknowledging what a great president he was. I think Vivek did what he came to do.  

Sarah [00:15:03] I do not find Vivek interesting. I find him arrogant and off putting. As it was clear, most of his compatriots up on the stage felt.  

Beth [00:15:13] They don't like him. They just think he's interesting.  

Sarah [00:15:15] Because I don't think that's interesting. There is a paradox here. It is both the cheapest way. I want to say the easiest, but it's not easy because you can't fake charisma. You can't fake the fight. I get all that, but it's just such a shallow way to achieve candidacy. It's what we talk about all the time. That we like overweight charisma and all that. And I do think it is difficult as a political candidate to convey that sense of personality and fun and authenticity. It's a complicated dance, I guess I will say, and not everybody achieves that obviously. But I just found him just so arrogant. And I guess that is if you're running to be the next Donald Trump, the name of the game. But the things he would say-- and again, maybe I shouldn't be shocked. Maybe this is just the truest reflection of where the Republican Party is. But climate change is a hoax. Donald Trump is the best president. It's a dark time in America. I get the strategy. He executes it well. It would never win a general election. I don't think that he would win against Joe Biden, not in the way Nikki Haley would.  

Beth [00:16:35] I agree with that. And I actually think he would underperform Donald Trump in a general election. I don't think he's there. I do get it, though. Chad and I were taking a walk in a section of our neighborhood that is homes mostly built for retirees. And we notice how extremely patriotic most of the porches are in a variety of ways. Lots of wooden signage, lots of flags, lots of red, white and blue wreaths. And then we see a Let's Go Brandon sign. And I'm not kidding; after we saw the Let's Go Brandon sign, we turn a corner and we can hear OAN blaring on a TV. And I was just thinking about how Vivek is so interesting to me to watch because he gets who the audience is. He gets who are sitting and watching a whole lot of TV, a whole lot of conservative media and what speaks to them. And they do believe that climate change is not just a hoax, but a religion. He will use all these words: transgenderism, wokeism. He puts an 'ism' on everything. And that is who he is playing to at the same time as he's saying, "But don't you want a young, fresh face on this? Doesn't it make you feel better for this to come in the form of a child of immigrants?" One of the most interesting things I found as I was reading about him was his wife, Apoorva, saying that her family had always voted for Democrats until Donald Trump because they heard him saying he loves America the way they feel they love America. And I think that taps into something important that gets missed. And to watch Vivek, who is a practicing Hindu, speak evangelical Christian so fluently on the trail and just really take all the lessons from Trump and play with how he can repackage them, I just think it's kind of fascinating to watch.  

Sarah [00:18:29] Well, people try to repackage Donald Trump at all different levels, most of them unsuccessfully. See Ronald DeSantis. And I totally agree with the evangelical language because that's an identity, not a theology anymore. So it shouldn't be hard for someone who is a practicing Hindu to espouse it. And, look, I want to say that is a very diverse field up on the stage. We have a black man, an Indian woman, and a young Indian child of immigrants. So I think it's easy for us to ignore that. It was very easy as progressives to point out all the time when it was a bunch of white men, but you don't hear anybody praising them now that the field is more diverse. But I think some of it is for better or for worse, Donald Trump did diversify the Republican Party. Nobody wants to hear that, but I think it's true.  

Beth [00:19:24] And continues to. The trajectory continues in that direction.  

Sarah [00:19:29] And continues to. And I think we need to acknowledge that honestly. I don't think it's tokenism. I think that these people have sincerely held political beliefs, both the candidates and the voters now within the Republican Party. We should respect that. And we should learn from it. We should not do what they do, which is just ignore uncomfortable realities like the fact that people support abortion rights in large majorities by just pretending that what we're debating is late term abortion. Which is not what we're debating everybody. And so, it's not that I don't see his strength and I don't see his appeal to that particular part of the Republican Party. It does not appeal to me, not in the way that Nikki Haley did. Now, let me be clear. I think she would win. Would I vote for her? I would not. But we've made the mistake so many times of refusing to acknowledge the strengths and the appeal inside the Republican Party. And as much as a circus has happened last night, there were moments where you could say, "Oh, yeah, that'll appeal to people."  

Beth [00:20:33] Yeah, I don't like Tim Scott at all. He probably makes me angrier than anybody else on the stage. I get viscerally frustrated hearing someone like Tim Scott, who I believe to be a smart and kind and decent person start to throw red meat because he knows that's what he needs to do. Like the moment when he said:  

Audio Play Back (Tim Scott) [00:20:52] We should be asking ourselves a bigger question about the weaponization of the Department of Justice. When I'm president, the first thing I'll do is fire Merrick Garland.  

Beth [00:21:02] Of course you would. You would appoint a new cabinet, as every president does. What are you doing? It makes me so mad because I expect better of him. And I also completely understand why his biography is compelling to people. I know lots of people who relate to "I grew up in poverty and I have been able to achieve things beyond my wildest dreams. And I think that's available to everybody. And we should celebrate it in America." That is how more people in my life feel than not. So I understand. I understand that. I don't think he did anything to serve himself in this debate. But while we're acknowledging what resonates with people, I do think that spirit resonates with people.  

Sarah [00:21:45] I feel absolutely nothing about Tim Scott. No anger, no frustration, nothing. I find him so boring. Every time he opened his mouth, I found he was very boring and I thought Doug Burgum was boring. But I do want to say that he tore his Achilles. So everybody was like, he might have just been in a massive amount of pain, and that's why he felt so disjointed.  

Beth [00:22:04] You know what I didn't understand about Doug Burgum? So when I read about him, there is a lot that piques my interest. He's very interested in getting North Dakota to net zero emissions. He's done some really good work on reducing traffic accidents. He has some good ideas. He has some innovative potential. And so, I expected him to come out with something that didn't sound like the rest of the field. I did not expect it to be the 10th Amendment. I loved that part. I totally agree with him about the 10th Amendment. I thought his answer on abortion was about as good as it gets from a Republican candidate. About Nikki Haley was a little better, but he was really good on that too. But that's not what I'm looking for from a Doug Burgum, who I think could say, "Here's an innovative approach to governing that no one's talking about and I would like to talk about it." And I just was scratching my head about why he is spending so much of his personal fortune to talk about energy policy in a room that doesn't care about energy policy and to talk about it in a way that's not really differentiated from anybody else on stage. I thought it was strange.  

Sarah [00:23:08] Here's the hard reality, Beth, that I think we need to accept. Nobody is looking for innovation in a presidential candidate. That is not what people want. I think in the last couple of years have just realized as I'm trying to just make sense about how Donald Trump could be leading in the polls and how the Republican Party has not just been wholeheartedly rejected. They should be decimated and they're not. And I thought, well, I just think the default people are conservative. And I don't mean like conservative in the sort of traditionally political term. I mean they don't like change. Even when they hate everything that's happening right now. They want someone to say, you're right, everything sucks, and we'll try to make it a little bit better for you. But I won't change anything dramatically. I don't think people want innovation. I don't think people want dramatic change, even if they're mad about inflation, even if they're mad about oil prices. They want to someone to say, you're right, it's bad and I'm going to make you feel better about your life. But I promise I won't change anything too dramatically. That's not where I'm at as a person, but I'm just realizing that's where most people are when they're looking at a political candidate.  

Beth [00:24:27] Yeah, I think we're pursuing two different tracks here. I definitely agree with that in terms of who ultimately wins. I think Doug Burgum knows he's not going to win. So why he isn't trying to distinguish himself in the field, that I don't get. I thought that there would be a goal here for him and he would come in and say, "Here's the thing I want you to remember about me, because it connects to some plan I have in the future." And that's what I didn't see. But I totally agree. I think that that's part of what people like about Trump, that he speaks as though he is going to change everything. And I think people mostly believe that he won't change much at all. He'll just talk about it. I think folks know Vivek Ramaswamy could not come in and unilaterally abolish federal agencies, and that's why they feel good about it. They feel okay. That okay,, he doesn't actually mean that. I think we've been doing that since Trump came down the escalator.  

Sarah [00:25:19] Except for sometimes things do change dramatically, like the overturn of Roe v Wade. And I think people are like, oh...  

Beth [00:25:25] We don't like that.  

Sarah [00:25:26] They'll be like, that's just going to reinforce the old ideas. Instead of being like, "No, things are at risk here." Real change is at risk. Even if the person makes you feel like everything's going to stay the same, they're just going to double down on their don't change anything, which is so frustrating. Nobody learns the lesson. But I think that I don't understand why any of them are up there. Innovative ideas, vice presidents, I truly do not understand why any of them went through that last night. It's not fun to prep for a debate. It's a lot of hard work. It's difficult to stand up there. We're watching it like it's a television show-- and it is to a certain extent, but one of our listeners was in the DM and said, "Do you know how hard it is as a woman to speak over a man the way Nikki Haley did?" I can't imagine the adrenaline dump she experienced in that moment where she was like, absolutely not. They were all stressed. Poor Doug Burgum was up there with this sliced Achilles tendon. But why? Why are you going through this? Why are you putting yourself through this? Unless you're Vivek and have a lot of money to blow and you seem like you're having a good time. What's the goal, guys? I thought you wanted to win the nomination. I thought you people want to be president. I'm so very confused.  

Beth [00:26:35] And I think that was most apparent around Chris Christie, who usually seems like he's having fun, like he enjoys these things. And I thought last night he seemed pained by the whole process. I thought the audience was in his head. I think the minute that he did the Chat GPT line.  

Audio Play Back (Chris Christie) [00:26:51] I've had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like Chat GPT stand up here... 

Beth [00:27:00] That was a barb for a different audience than was in the room. And I think he could feel it. And I think he never got out of his head after that. I think he was just such a lukewarm version of himself. And it made me really sad because if there is a lane for Chris Christie to even stay in, he has to look like the only person who could be on a debate stage with Trump. Even if Trump never debates, he has to look like the one person who could really take it to Trump. And he didn't last night. Nikki looked like the only one who had the fuel to actually stand up to Trump.  

Sarah [00:27:31] It had to be more than the audience, though, because he clearly came out with those lines prepped about Donald Trump is not going to defend the Constitution. And I just thought that's the case you think is going to win against Donald Trump? Not like he's a bully. He left me to die. He will leave you too. He doesn't care about our party. That's why we keep losing elections. I can make the case that I think has some impact if you want to talk about fight. But you came out and said he doesn't respect the Constitution and he said he would X, Y, Z. But I was like, this is it? This is what you came prepped to do on this debate stage. I was so disappointed.  

Beth [00:28:06] If I had to guess, that sounds to me like someone who's spending a lot of time with New Hampshire Republicans. That sounds like what will not get him booed in every diner and library and coffee shop that he's doing. I think Chris Christie is so accustomed to the audience being with him when he's on the attack and that he's really deflated by that not happening here and probably in the lead up to it.  

Sarah [00:28:35] But I don't understand. He's a prosecutor. He has to be more comfortable making a case and not knowing if the jury is with you or not. I don't understand that. I thought he had that skill set, but he clearly doesn't. Maybe he's just been in politics too long. Speaking of people who surprised me, who were off the game, I loved it when Asa Hutchinson was like, "When I was the head of the DEA." And I immediately went to his Wikipedia page. That was over 20 years ago. But he was like, "I understand the drug crisis." I was like, "Wait a second, What?" I didn't even know Asa Hutchinson was the head of the DEA. And the reason I didn't know that is because it was 20 years ago. Oh, guys, what are you doing? What are you doing with your one wild and precious life up there on that debate stage? I just don't get it.  

Beth [00:29:15] The Arkansas of it all with Asa was wearing me out, and I just think he is living in a different reality than the rest of the field this when I go back to Reagan days. To me, the most genuine thing that happened on the stage the whole night was when Mike Pence was agreeing with Asa a little bit about how we need to work with Mexico to solve the drug problem. It felt like the most unscripted Mike Pence that we got. And I thought the two of you do ideologically align. You are of a different era. You are of the same era of Republican politics. And neither of you have what the party today wants or what a general election populace is looking for.  

Sarah [00:29:55] I just think Mike Pence should have been a preacher. I think that would have been a better career path for him.  

Beth [00:30:00] Mike Pence bothers me because of how he switches his voice into preacher voice.  

Sarah [00:30:07] So does Tim Scott.  

Beth [00:30:08] Tim Scott does that too. That's right. And I can't stand it. I have a real lack of tolerance for switching into a voice: sincere voice, preacher voice, yoga teacher voice. There are a lot of voices that just really turn me off. And Mike Pence is bad about that. He came out. I think his whole strategy memo was do what the Super PAC told Ron to do and go after Vivek, which I thought was so unbecoming for the former vice president and really kind of elevated Vivek more than he intended it to. And also show people that he is not passive. I think he was really working to interrupt the moderators.  

Sarah [00:30:43] It was annoying.  

Beth [00:30:44] Insert himself into the conversation because he had such a passive reputation as a vice president.  

Sarah [00:30:49]  How do we feel the moderators did?  

Beth [00:30:52] I almost felt sorry for them. So Brett and Martha are the closest Fox has to, like, we're trying to do journalism still. And I think they really wanted to do that. And I felt like you could almost see all of the different things pulling at their attention. That they don't want to make Trump team mad. That they have their marching orders from Rupert Murdoch and the Fox News sort of empire. That they do still want to be journalists. They want to still have a long career. And I just think that they were nowhere because of that.  

Sarah [00:31:26] Yeah, I thought they did a bad job. You can't crack jokes and then expect people to follow the rules. You can't crack jokes about following the rules and then expect people, especially on the stage, to follow the rules. They did not have control almost the entire time. I thought some of the questions were dumb. I thought the question to Tim Scott about how would you make Americans go back to church and respect their faith again in a lightning round was a dumb question. I thought the use of Oliver Anthony song was dumb. They did just enough under that journalistic umbrella to show how badly they were doing that. You know what I mean? They asked just enough questions and tried to emphasize the importance of that, only enough to illustrate what a circus it was the rest of the time.  

Beth [00:32:14] It's extremely transparent when you ask Ron DeSantis about the military and Tim Scott about church, and then you are following up on Chris Christie about the state of bonds in New Jersey when he was the governor. They kept obviously putting softballs at DeSantis and Scott. And I thought, we all understand this. We understand that Fox would like to move on from Trump, but they need someone to move on with. And you're trying to get these guys there. And I felt like some of their frustration was just, we can't get them there. Nobody's doing it. And then when they talked about Trump, it was the most halfhearted, sheepish thing I've ever seen.  

Sarah [00:32:53] She at one point said, like, we have to do this so we can move on. Did you catch her saying that? I was like, what the heck? Say the quiet part out loud there, Martha.  

Beth [00:33:02] So we've been talking for about 30 minutes and we have not really talked about Ron DeSantis. And I think that says everything.  

Sarah [00:33:08] Well, he did bad. He was boring. He barely made an impact at all. He never answered a question.  

Beth [00:33:15] No.  

Sarah [00:33:15] Under my tally, never directly answered a question. He just always redirected. When they asked him about Trump, he was like conservative media. I was like, what? No. Fauci. Fired Fauci back to the school lockdowns every chance he got. His debate prep team did him no favors because he was terrible. But this was predictable. We said this. We said he has not been tested. I don't want to say I told you so to all the messages that were like, "Take him seriously, he could take the whole thing down." But we told y'all so. 

Beth [00:33:52] Should we move on to talking about the counter-programming?  

Sarah [00:33:56] Sure.  

[00:33:56] Music Interlude  

Beth [00:34:07] All right. We both watched Donald Trump's 46-ish minute sit down with Tucker Carlson.  

Sarah [00:34:14] And you couldn't even speed up the speed. It was on x and you had to watch it at regular speed, you guys. So if you would like to send us some sort of treats, flowers. Thank you. For this public service. That's okay with me, because 45 minutes is a long time at regular speed.  

Beth [00:34:31] I took four pages of handwritten notes watching it, and then I dramatically read them to Chad this morning after breakfast. So he might need some treats as well. I snapped a picture from it and posted it in our Instagram stories and someone said, "Why does this look like AI made it?" And I thought, you know what, this sounded like AI made it. This sounded like a machine took bits and pieces of the way these two generally operate and just mashed it all up.  

Sarah [00:35:00] I'm going to start with Tucker Carlson, who was so unhinged and completely divorced from reality. And I guess any journalistic integrity (which has been the situation for a while. I understand that) that he at points made Donald Trump look reasonable. They were like 10 minutes into this interview and he was like, "What about Jeffrey Epstein?" And I thought, are you kidding?  

Beth [00:35:30] And he was not.  

Sarah [00:35:30] Is this a joke? He implied that the Democrats are going to assassinate Donald Trump.  

Audio Play Back (Tucker Carlson) [00:35:36] I'm looking at the trajectory since 2015 when you got into politics for real. And then one, they started with protests against you, massive protests, organized protest by the left. And then it moved to impeachment twice and now indictment. I mean, the next stage is violence. Are you worried that they're going to try and kill you? Why wouldn't they try and kill you, honestly?  

Audio Play Back (Donald Trump) [00:36:00] They're savage animals. They are people that are sick, really sick. You have great people in the Democrat Party. You have great people that are Democrats. Most of the people in our country are fantastic. And I'm representing everybody. I'm not just Republicans, I represent everybody. I'm the president of everybody.  

Sarah [00:36:19] On the most basic human level, who looks at another human and says, "Do you think they're going to try to kill you?" Who does that? Unless you're, oh, I don't know, the Secret Service. And even they wouldn't approach it that way. They're more professional. I just could not believe the things he said. They were in another stratosphere. There is not enough benefit of the doubt in grace contained in the planet Earth to make most of what Tucker Carlson said during this interview make sense.  

Beth [00:36:53] Well, we began this conversation with you saying that the candidates were looking for a moment during the debate and Tucker was looking for a moment in that debate. He wanted to get Trump to say something that Trump has never said before on a topic that Trump doesn't usually speak on. He wanted a clip that would go viral because this thing was hard to find if you didn't know what you were looking for. It was hard to find. He knows that people are not going to watch it. Whatever they say about how many people see it. X is just not a thing anymore, right? It is a different universe from where most people are.  

Sarah [00:37:25] I will say I found it easier than I found the stupid debate. Goodness gracious.  

Beth [00:37:30] So I just think Tucker kept poking at things like Jeffrey Epstein. He went to "do you think they'll kill you" twice.  

Sarah [00:37:37] Twice, you guys.  

Beth [00:37:39] He didn't get much of an answer from it in the beginning. And then about halfway through, he went there again.  

Audio Play Back (Tucker Carlson) [00:37:44] So what's next after trying to put you in prison for the rest of your life? That's not working, so don't they have to kill you now?  

Beth [00:37:50] And then he pushed on. "Are we on the verge of a civil war? Do we think that there's going to be violence? Isn't violence the next stage?" He talked about violence so much, and I think he was just looking for something that made all the headlines this morning.  

Sarah [00:38:04] There was no mention of the fact that he hates Donald Trump, but we have the text messages to prove it. They talked about San Francisco. It's not like he was like, that's my hometown. He was completely disconnected from Donald Trump's answers. A couple of times he'd say, "Wait, what do you mean by that?" But there was barely any follow up. It was just this wild, winding road where you're trying to follow a thread between the conscious and subconscious of Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump. Good luck. We went everywhere from civil war to low flow sinks, you guys, It was wild out there and he still couldn't do which no one is going to be able to do. He could not keep Donald Trump in the present. We still spent, what do you think, probably 30 to 40% of the interview on 2020? I would say.  

Beth [00:38:53] Sure.  

Sarah [00:38:54] I think that's about right.  

Beth [00:38:54] It was still Hillary called him to concede, and we had so much evidence of it being rigged and you're allowed to challenge elections. And Hillary and Stacey Abrams going to be indicted because they've challenged elections too. And by the way, Joe Biden has 25 times more boxes than he has. He is firmly planted in the mode of how he views other people of stature relative to himself. It's all he's got.  

Sarah [00:39:19] Yeah, And it's really interesting. I have not obviously seen him talk for this extended period of time, a very, very long time. And there are a couple moments where I was like, hmm, the inconsistency of Joe Biden is both senile and a corrupt mastermind doesn't seem to concern them. They're not worried about the contrast between that argument at all, the self-assured way and the conclusory way. They're just like, well, he's out of it. Somebody else is doing it. There's no way he can win. And I'm like, well, that's why your voters think that, because you tell them that. Okay, so that makes a little more sense to me now. I thought it was interesting when he said the usual democrats are savage beasts, they're animals, they're nasty. But then he said, well, not everybody, but most Democrats. I'm the president for everybody, Democrats and Republicans. And I thought, oh, that's a new one. That's definitely not what you said when you were president.  

Beth [00:40:14] I tracked that too and thought, I wonder where that's coming from?  

Sarah [00:40:18] Yeah, I was like, that's an interesting little shift. It was so fascinating how often he talked about the good energy. He said the people are great. I didn't really appreciate [inaudible] about how loving the January six crowd was and how it was his biggest crowd. And I was like, that's the crowd you want to claim is your biggest crowd. Okay, because that's not a big crowd. And so that's interesting to me. But he just kept saying there's just so much love and there's so much energy, which to me tells me that his base is just fully down the rabbit hole. And they're so in it with him that that must be what he's feeling at these rallies and stuff. Because he's like, I see people driving along the road on the way here. But I thought, yeah, but there's nobody at your indictments in your arraignments. The streets are empty. So I don't know if he's just so focused in on the campaign rallies and what he's feeling from people. I don't know. It was just as much as his non-sequitur or any sort of insight into his consciousness or subconscious, there were some moments where I thought, you're not as riled up as I thought you would be. You're still completely consumed by the past, but there wasn't a lot of fight. There was just a lot of like, "Well, you know..." And, "Of course, people said..." He was sort of low energy, I thought.  

Beth [00:41:34] I think Tucker bored him.  

Sarah [00:41:36] Lord, yeah.  

Beth [00:41:37] And I think that's probably going to be tough for both of them.  

Sarah [00:41:40] Or maybe he carries the fact that Tucker was texting such nasty things about him.  

Beth [00:41:44] Maybe. He said one thing that I wholeheartedly agree with and I would like to acknowledge it in the spirit of fairness.  

Sarah [00:41:50] Oh, I can't wait to hear what it was.  

Beth [00:41:51] I think he is so odd in his fixation on electric cars. But I do agree with him that California's grid currently cannot handle everyone driving electric cars. That is correct. I think that is under discussed. I think it is important. And I just want to say on that one, Mr. Trump, I see you.  

Sarah [00:42:10] I love how everybody is his friend. Him and Gavin Newsom got along, and I thought, I want to hear Gavin Newsom's take on that. Also, you can keep our friend Amy McGrath's name at your mouth.  

Beth [00:42:21] I couldn't believe he name-checked Amy McGrath.  

Sarah [00:42:23] I was like, leave her alone. She's trying to go about her business. She's not running for office. Don't bring her up.  

Beth [00:42:29] So if you didn't watch this, (and I hope you didn't) he said that he regretted supporting Mitch McConnell. This was sort of connected to the impeachments and that Mitch was down by three points to Amy McGrath, who had $90 million to fight him. And that Mitch would have lost that race, but for his endorsement.  

Sarah [00:42:47]  I was just like, don't drag her into this absolute word salad of an interview. I just feel like it was important that I have now consumed some more recent Donald Trump. I will not be doing that again. I will not be watching any more interview. I don't care how many debates he skips out of. I get it now. I don't want to watch any of that again, it's confusing. It's like being in the upside down. And it affects my mental health.  

Beth [00:43:17] I'm just looking at my notes to make sure that we deliver all of his important insights to everyone, such as someone in the White House thinks Joe Biden looks fabulous on the beach and they should tell him he doesn't. He looks horrible on the beach.  

Sarah [00:43:28] I did like that. Listen, he is most consistent and coherent when he is talking about public relations. That's just the truth. Publicity is his comfort zone.  

Beth [00:43:39] Well, also, you can tell he cares about golf courses because he noted in his discussion of Biden's physical condition that the grass is only two inches at the White House. That's pretty short. And Biden can't even seem to walk in that grass.  

Sarah [00:43:51] I did think it was great when he said you shouldn't be at the beach, you should be working, and I want to be like, friend, do you want us to pull up the numbers about how much time during your presidency that you spend at the golf course? Because I don't think you do.  

Beth [00:44:01] And how much it cost all of us for you to do that. I thought it was interesting to hear that he never gives people the same nickname. He doesn't do two at once. He calls Biden crooked now, so he's retired it as to crooked Hillary.  

Sarah [00:44:12] Mm-hmm.  

Beth [00:44:14] The moment that I was most like, "what is happening" was when they were talking about how Trump saved the Olympics in South Korea. And he called that North Korea and said you should participate. And he said, "They're not big on athletics because..." And he kind of trailed off and Tucker goes:  

Audio Play Back (Tucker Carlson) [00:44:31] Famine.  

Beth [00:44:34] I was like, oh my God, what is happening here?  

Sarah [00:44:38] Famine.  

Beth [00:44:40] Famine.  

Sarah [00:44:40] These two. Tucker. Is Tucker okay?  

Beth [00:44:44] Has Tucker been okay for a long time? I don't know.  

Sarah [00:44:47] Is his soul dead? I don't know what's happened. Is it just like the JD Vance syndrome? Like, you're in a defensive posture for so long and so often that you just convinced yourself of this alternate reality you live in? Because just in case you're wondering, Tucker does think Jeffrey Epstein was murdered. Donald Trump is like, I think he killed himself. Actually, when he was like, "He's in prison. He's away from his mansions," I thought, you thought about this. This is a line of thinking. You've gone down "If I have to give up my beautiful lifestyle and be in prison..." When he said that, I thought, [gasps] you thought about this. You put yourself in his position. And that's the closest I've ever heard him describe something in which he put himself in someone else's position.  

Beth [00:45:35] It was the most reflective I've ever seen him, I think, when he was talking about the empathy maybe that he feels with Jeffrey Epstein. About Tucker, I just kept watching this thinking this exercise is humiliating for both of these people. Tucker doesn't want to have a show that you can only find on the Internet.  

Sarah [00:45:57] Well, he thinks TV is dead though, remember?  

Beth [00:46:00] Donald Trump loves TV. And Donald Trump is sitting with Tucker, who he knows. He read that story in The Times. He knows what Tucker has said about him privately. And Tucker is having to suck up to Trump after what we know he really thinks about him. And they are both clinging to a life raft here and having to pretend that they're really sticking it to everybody by doing it this way. And nothing good can come of that.  

Sarah [00:46:27] Nothing has made me feel as old recently as when they had that exchange about his TV. They're largely talking about cable news when Donald Trump was like, "The golden age is over." And I was like, oh, I'm so old. We went from feeling like cable news was the death of democracy in this new media that was going to ruin everything. And now it's like, oh, the golden age of cable news is over. It made me feel so old.  

Beth [00:46:52] I also just want to mention my other favorite line from this interview, which is when he talked about how water comes from heaven.  

Sarah [00:46:58] Yeah, he does.  

Beth [00:46:58] And it's not that big of a problem, guys. We should be cool about water. 

Sarah [00:47:00] Yeah, it comes from heaven. Well, and then when he was talking about the low flow sinks, he was like, "You turn on the sink and nothing comes out." And Tucker was like, "What do you mean?" And he was like:  

Audio Play Back (Donald Trump) [00:47:09] You want to wash your hands, right?  

Audio Play Back (Tucker Carlson) [00:47:10] Yeah.  

Audio Play Back (Donald Trump) [00:47:11] You've seen this. And you turn on the sink and it's very little. Or you want to wash your beautiful hair, right? And you stand under a shower and the water comes out very slowly. I'm sure you've seen this.  

Sarah [00:47:25] This is how ridiculous this entire interview was. Ridiculous is the only word for it. I hated that Republican debate. I thought there were so few moments of any real policy discussion, and it was on a different planet from this interview. It was on a different planet.  

Beth [00:47:47] That brings me around to the last thing I wanted to ask you about. How do you feel today as major media publications are kind of going with, well, Trump won this debate.  

Sarah [00:47:59] They didn't watch that interview. I think they're making the same mistakes they made last time. They cannot help themselves. They cannot take any clear eyed vision of the role media coverage plays inside politics, inside Donald Trump in particular. Like, the emperor has no clothes and you guys are pretending that he's walking down a Paris runway. And I don't understand it. Look, you and I came on here and said we think he could win. This could be the reality. But something like this debate gives people a real opportunity. My friend was like, I'm going to watch it. She's my little focus group. And she was going to watch it. So give it the credence it deserves. Don't just say he wasn't there, so it doesn't count. Because if the media and the Republican politicians really turned on him, I do honestly believe it would have impact. I really, really do. I think people are more persuadable than we give them credit for, even when it comes to Donald Trump.  

Beth [00:49:10] Yes, I one hundred percent agree with that. I was happy that there wasn't a lot of coverage of the Tucker Carlson talk this morning. But I was sad that no one covered this debate just straight. It was always like with a but does it really matter? And I understand that in some ways the emperor has no clothes, and in another ways the emperor has a 50 point lead in most polls. Both things are true. It is true that the most likely scenario today is that he sails to the nomination. But a lot happens between now and then. And I just want us to have the opportunity for things to happen. I don't want it to be so frozen in this way. That is so disempowering. Even if I thought he were an amazing candidate. Let's say that Nikki Haley was up by 50 points right now. It would not be good to cover it as though it were over when nobody votes for months. That's not how the process is supposed to work.  

Sarah [00:50:05] Well, and what's so frustrating to me is there's nothing ahistorical about this. I was there in 2007. Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was going to win and Barack Obama was a long shot. Trust me, that was the coverage. I was there in 2015 and 2016 when everybody thought Donald Trump was a joke and there was no way he was going to win. I remember my friend Rebecca telling me she thought Scott Walker was definitely going to walk away with the nomination. Remember him? Why do we pretend like this hasn't happened before? You and I went to a rally with Joe Biden and thought, there's no way in hell. And Joe Biden is president right now. So why don't we all act like this is set in stone? And that, of course, this is what's going to happen. And no candidate has had this type of a lead in Iowa and never won. Iowa loves to surprise people. I just am so frustrated because it's not like this is-- in some ways yes, of course, it is a unique situation because it is a former president running again. Although, go knock on Teddy Roosevelt's door, that's also not unheard of. And I'm just so frustrated by the lack of perspective, the lack of ability to lead and educate people through this instead of covering as if polling is indicative of where people are and will be. There is no responsibility when the media reports on polling that things could change. This is one small indicator. You know how I feel about this. I wish they'd stop covering polls. I wish they'd just be like, we're not going to do it anymore. I'm not convinced there is a responsible way to cover polling, to be honest with you.  

Beth [00:51:43] Yeah, I think that's right. I think it's useful to campaigns and it's really damaging to the body politic. And I think that while most of this is not ahistorical, there are some truly unique factors, and I think that's why everybody seems lost. I noticed that nobody mentioned Afghanistan until the closing statements. And if you were really there to beat up on Joe Biden, you would mention Afghanistan. You wouldn't just do inflation. Afghanistan is the moment where his approval rating started to sink and didn't recover, but nobody talked about that until closing statements. It's like they don't know how to run against Trump. They're not really sure how to run against Biden, and they definitely don't know how to run against each other. So the personal animus against Vivek and his willingness to spar kind of won out here. And I'm glad that that is mostly the story that's being written this morning, because I think that that is the story for today. And there will be another one tomorrow. And I just would like to extract ourselves from this universe where nothing matters except Trump. But we probably won't because by the time you listen to this podcast, Trump will have surrendered in Fulton County and we will have a lot of coverage of that.  

Sarah [00:52:52] I think we're going to get a mug shot if the other people who have surrendered are any indication. An actual Trump mug shot.  

Beth [00:52:59] Yeah, the sheriff there has said, "You're just another defendant in my book." There's bail, the whole nine yards. Georgia isn't playing around. We will continue to follow this. And we appreciate you being here with us as we do. And next up, we're going to talk about another Internet controversy of the week, and that is Bama Rush Tok.  

[00:53:19] Music Interlude.  

[00:53:37] Sarah, how closely are you following this? How deep into Rush Tok are you?  

Sarah [00:53:43] Well, first of all, this is not my first year with Rush Tok. I have followed Rush Toks in years past. It was primarily focused on the University of Alabama, but this year expanded. We got Rush Toks from universities all over the country. But there was a watch along, a growing, passionate watch along. It didn't feel controversial to me this year, which I really enjoyed. It just felt like everybody was following along. There were so many great TikToks. There was this one woman where she was like, "Has everybody checked in on their rich girlies today? I just got check on them every day. I want what's best for them. I feel like their auntie. I got to check out my rich girlies every morning." I just loved it. This sense of like, these girls are trying. We want what's best for them. I enjoyed the vibe of Rush Tok this year for sure.  

Beth [00:54:33] I have gotten a lot of have you seen this think piece? What do you think of this take? So the controversy to me seems to be how much do we want to saddle the young women going through this process with all of the world's ills, with classism and racism and sexism? How much do we want to put on these young people? And I think that my perspective by that is necessarily influenced by the fact that we both were in a sorority together.  

Sarah [00:54:58] I still consider myself a member of the sorority.  

Beth [00:55:00] And we do a lot of work with sororities. Some of my favorite speaking engagements we do are with Greek women. And as I read those pieces talking about how sororities are relics of dated and exclusive ideas, I just want to say you don't know how much the women who run these organizations know this and are working on it constantly, how deeply they are thinking about it, how important it is to them to change that. And I know that doesn't come through on TikTok, but there is incredible complexity to these organizations and what they believe they exist to do and how they do it.  

Sarah [00:55:43] Yeah, I felt a lot of acknowledgment of the complexity of these girls in this situation. I thought it was so interesting, the conversation around the University of Alabama in particular, that the recruitment has taken off largely due to Rush Tok. Because people want this very traditional college experience because so many young kids felt like they got robbed of a traditional high school experience due to Covid. And they want the big university and the Greek organizations, which are very dominant of the University of Alabama. And, look, this is also of course informed by my experience. I had a wholly and completely positive experience inside the sorority. Well, absent of one of my sorority sisters cheating with my boyfriend. But, listen, that could happen outside the sorority sisters. There is no judgement there. I thought it was positive. I thought it lent structure, which I think we're all realizing now it's so important to build and sustain friendships as this sort of meeting structure framework. That's what I found in a sorority. Listen to the sound of my voice. There would be no Pantsuit Politics without our sorority. Without a doubt in my mind. That's what kept us connected through our four years of college. That's why we were still acquaintances and could reconnect in our later adulthood. And we were at a tiny liberal university. There was some dancing, and let me assure you, it was not on the level of what you're seeing on Rush Tok. But the sort of like, what do we call it? The dual matching system we used.  

Beth [00:57:13] Mutual preference.  

Sarah [00:57:14] Mutual preference. Yes. Do you know how often that comes up in life? Do you know how often in my life someone will be explaining the process to me and I'll be like, "Oh pref, got it." And just the level of organization and the networking and the small talk and being able to connect with someone quickly and then move on seamlessly. These are skills I have continued to use, much less the just friendships that I've carried throughout my life. And so, of course, that informs my view of these girls and the experience they're having. I understand that there are negative aspects of sorority life. So clear and obvious I don't even know if they need articulating. But I had just a wholly positive experience and I hope these girls are too. And that seemed to be what people were rooting for. I want them to be happy. If this is what makes them happy and they want to find sisterhood and this works out for them, yay!  

Beth [00:58:07] I completely understand why people are drawn to this. Because of social media, there are so many experiences that all feel the same and like you've had them before. You stepped foot on campus at the University of Alabama and you know you're somewhere different.  

Sarah [00:58:20] So true.  

Beth [00:58:21] You just are. And that might not be for you. And that might come with a lot of baggage. And most of the people there will acknowledge that in a hot second.  

Sarah [00:58:29] And they will say roll tide.  

Beth [00:58:31] And they will say roll tide in the next breath. It is hard to find a unique experience like that today, and so I totally get the pull of that. I will say about my time in the sorority. I did a lot of leadership in the sorority, and for me, it was exhausting. It was fun. I felt the most supported there. I felt the most hurt there. I felt the most betrayal there. There are moments that I can just call back in an instant my stomach hurts all over again because I remember how people talked to me or I remember what people were doing. Or I remember a situation that I felt totally ill equipped to address, and the sense of responsibility that I felt for what was happening. It was a lot, and that was good preparation for life. And there are also aspects of it where you think, why did we do that stuff? Because we did. And you know how many professional associations are just self-sustaining like that? Why do we have this meeting? Because we do. We won't be here if we don't keep having this meeting. There's really no other purpose. Like a whole lot of adult life, the sorority is a very good practice round, a good supportive practice round for a whole lot of what you're expected to do and be as an adult. And I think especially as you watch how elaborate Rush is at a place like Alabama, the leadership skills behind that are enormous. It's draining for them, and I think it's been good to see some focus on how draining it is this year. People recognizing this is hard, and it's hard in ways that you don't feel 100 percent good about. And that's life too.  

Sarah [01:00:07] I do think the social media component is interesting. There was a big controversy because Morgan, one of the girls that everybody was rooting for, didn't get a bid. And there was speculation that was because she had too much of a social media presence. But another girl who did that did get a bid. I do think the way the organizations have started to put guardrails around social media is really interesting and good. I loved Morgan too, but can you fathom the arms race that would take off if girls felt like if I can get teletypes to sponsor me and I can get a management company to sponsor me, I'll have a more likelihood of getting a bid from X, Y, Z House. So I like the way that they've sort of just been like you can do your OOTD; otherwise, there will be consequences inconsistently applied because they are always inconsistently applied. And that the houses themselves, even the girls within the house, it's like they pick their one. They're like, you can do it, you can do a little bit more, but otherwise it's going to flow through the house. I just think like all those guardrails, imperfect as they are, are interesting. I just appreciate that because I think there's a growing need and awareness that we're going to have to have some guardrails around this and young people. So I think that's really beneficial. And, yeah, you are in a different place when you're in the University of Alabama. You should feel like you're in a different place when you're in college. Of course, they're trying on femininity and of course the men are trying on masculinity. Just because they're not putting on social media, believe that they are in interesting ways, in ways that you might find weird or upsetting. They're kids. All these people we've been watching for the last few weeks don't have fully formed prefrontal cortexes, you guys. That's what college is about. And so, I just felt like it took a more positive tone for something that was happening mostly on the Internet. Or maybe it's because it was grounded in a real life experience in a way that some people can't access. Maybe it's because it feels so different and it's outside most people's experience. It kept it in this sort of safer space of celebration and support instead of critique. People didn't feel ownership on it because it's so foreign to them that I found encouraging.  

Beth [01:02:20] To make it obvious that I'm one of the olds, I feel so grateful that we did not have social media as part of our experience. So, so grateful. I also just practically don't know how it would work. So coincidentally, I ran into my little sister from the sorority at a baseball game this past weekend. It was so wonderful to see her. And it does have this extra layer. I was more excited to see her than I would have been to see most people that I went to college with. But we were talking about how hard we worked because both of us at some point had to disaffiliate during Rush. So I was a first year R.A., and it was a very big deal that we were not supposed to let anybody know what sorority we were in so that we didn't pressure the women on our halls. And I don't know how that happens with social media. Like, is that a thing any more? Lots of questions?  

Sarah [01:03:09] Yeah, that is interesting. I was also a rookie and had to disaffiliate. And it's one of the moments of my college career I'm most thankful for because as a result, I formed two very close friendships with two guys younger than me because I was also a student orientation leader and they are two of my most beloved friends, Mike and Smith, to this day. And I think if I'd been just consumed with Rush, I probably would have never connected to them. But because I could talk to anybody else, I basically half kidnapped them. I was like, you're my friends now. We hang out all the time. And luckily they went along with it and still do.  

Beth [01:03:40] Yeah. The buying friends has never connected with me. What I felt like I was buying was a shortcut to belonging. That I had a shorthand for who I was. Look, I think that we really did have a diverse chapter while we were on campus.  

Sarah [01:03:58] We did. And it also wasn't that expensive. I don't know what the dues are at University of Alabama, but I don't remember it being very expensive at [inaudible]. 

Beth [01:04:04] I thought it was expensive. It took most of what I made in the summer to pay for it, but I felt like it gave me a shorthand about who I was in terms of values. But that expression came across-- I mean, we had lots of different kinds of people in terms of their interests and backgrounds and everything, and I felt like it gave me a place to go and built-in events. You're not waiting to hopefully somebody invites me to this thing that's happening. You just are invited because you're in the thing.  

Sarah [01:04:30] That's so true.  

Beth [01:04:31] So I felt like it was a shortcut to belonging and that I bought that belonging.  

Sarah [01:04:35] Sure.  

Beth [01:04:35] And then after that I bought access to a whole host of experiences that I couldn't have gotten another way. And sometimes that was awesome. And sometimes it led to a lot of burnout and frustration and heartbreak. But all that's valuable to you, and I wouldn't do it differently if I had to go back. Now, I don't know if you asked me, like, do you want Jane and Ellen to do this? I have a hard time picturing them doing their OOTD. Except that I don't have a hard time, which makes it even harder about.  

Sarah [01:05:02] What are you talking about? I don't have a hard time at all. I thought you'd say that, except that I don't. I don't have a hard time picturing Ellen doing an OOTD. 

Beth [01:05:11] Yeah, and that is what makes it harder. Do I wish that for her? I don't know. But I do wish very much no matter what paths they take in life, that they find a place where they can plug in to belonging quickly. Because I think that transition to college is awfully hard if you don't find some form of that.  

Sarah [01:05:30] Yeah, I hope all my children Rush and participate in a fraternity and I'm assuming my husband feels the same way. He is so very close with his fraternity brothers. We've had wild experiences where he's been in a grocery store and somebody will come up and give him the secret handshake, which is always very exciting. They're not secret anymore. You can learn about every single Greek organizations, secret procedures on the Internet now, which is kind of a bummer.  

Beth [01:05:53] Yeah.  

Sarah [01:05:53] Not that I could remember how to do the secret handshake, maybe if I really thought about it. But yeah, I agree. I thought it was a positive experience. I think it does lend some structure and belonging and support to a difficult transition in the college, so I definitely want that for them. And I think the smartest thing Alabama does is just do it before classes start because it is exhausting to do it while you're also supposed to be going to class.  

Beth [01:06:14] Well, I thought this was an interesting conversation. I know people will have things to say about it, and I look forward to reading each and every one of those comments and emails in detail. If you would like to chat with us about anything, you can email us at Hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. We read every single message and if you don't need us to respond, if you could just put no reply needed in the subject line, we would appreciate that. Thank you so much for being here. If you'd like more election coverage, we will stay with that. Also, legal coverage of the former president's woes, all on our premium shows: Good Morning and More to Say. We will be back in your ears next Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.  

[01:06:51]  Music Interlude 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Danny Ozment. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. The Lebo Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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