Trump, Debates, and the Inevitability of 2024

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• The State of the 2024 Republican and Democratic Presidential Primaries

• Outside of Politics: Do we still want purses?

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EPISODE RESOURCES

Get your ticket to the Pantsuit Politics Live show in Paducah, Kentucky on October 21! Get information about our weekend in Paducah here.

• Trump Plans to Skip GOP Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson (The New York Times)

• Trump voters trust him more than their families, religious leaders: poll (Axios)

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:01] Music Interlude.

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude. 

Sarah [00:00:33] Welcome to Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Today we're going old school. There's no big episode roadmap, we're meeting the news cycle where it's at, which is completely consumed with Donald Trump in the Republican primary. And we also have some thoughts on that. So that's what we're going to talk about today.  

And Outside of Politics, I'm going to talk about purses, diaper bags, and cars and strollers, and everyday carry and how we move about in the world with the stuff that we need. 

Beth [00:01:01] And the perfection of the Apple Wallet and the Disney Magic band. It's a wide-ranging conversation. And as this whole thing is, it's very free-flowing. When we decided this morning to just talk about this, I adopted the hashtag Free Sarah and Beth for our outlines and our structure of research that we often do.  

Before we get started, I do want to tell you about Monday's episode of More to Say. So in connection with this conversation, I did an episode of More to Say pretty in the weeds on the Republican nominating process, how are delegates chosen, what were the requirements to get into this debate, and who has met them as of today. So if you would like to check that out, all the information to do that is in our show notes.  

Also, we want to make sure that you know that the clock is ticking on your opportunity to buy tickets to come see us in Paducah for our live show there. Live show is not a strong enough expression of what this weekend is going to be. 

Sarah [00:01:54] You guys, it's such a full schedule. I have articulated I like a schedule of events. And the schedule of events that we are crafting you, it's not even a schedule, it's a menu. You have so many options. There's going to be an October fest with our local breweries that you can attend. My beloved friend Sara Falder, owner of Flower + Furbish, is going to have floral classes for some Pantsuit Politics listeners, if that's what they're interested in. We have the Quilt Museum. We have so many options. 

Because here's what we want. We didn't want to just have a live show in Paducah. We wanted the experience for all of you that we have when we travel, which is we come for an event and our listeners in the area are like, "But we want you to understand our place. So do you want to come to the zoo? Do you also want to come to this museum? And would you like to meet the civic group?" And we're always like, Yes. And it is the best, most life-giving experience. And that is what we are crafting in Paducah, Kentucky, on the weekend of October 20th through 22nd. You'll have to come.  

Beth [00:02:51] If you are coming, take a look on our website because Alise and Maggie had the brilliant idea of making commemorative buttons for everybody who's coming. And that way, as you're walking around experiencing the fullness that Paducah has to offer, you can identify other Pantsuit Politics listeners and meet them and get connected to some of truly the loveliest people from across the nation you can imagine. 

Sarah [00:03:13] Love it. There's already organizing going on social media. Like, I need a carpool. Who wants to stay in an Airbnb together? It just warms my heart so much.  

Beth [00:03:04] And I bet those needs will be met because that is the experience that we have whenever we meet you all in person. 

Sarah [00:03:26] Absolutely. All right. From that heartwarming conversation, now we are going to take a hard turn and talk about Donald Trump and the Republican primary. Not what I describe as heartwarming. 

[00:03:40] Music Interlude. 

Sarah [00:03:54] Beth, I don't know if you heard over the weekend but twice impeached, four times indicted, former President Donald J. Trump will not be participating in the Republican primary debate on Wednesday.  

Beth [00:04:12] I didn't hear this after Fox News and the RNC have practically begged for him to come. 

Sarah [00:04:20] Everybody begged. Brant called, Martha called. Everybody begged.  

Beth [00:04:24] Rana. Rana has been trying.  

Sarah [00:04:26] Rana called. 

Beth [00:04:26] He has dispatched emissaries to go see him, I understand, to try to get him there but he's not doing it. 

Sarah [00:04:31] He's not going to come.  

Beth [00:04:32] I can understand that. If I were his lawyer, I would not advise him to participate in a debate right now.  

Sarah [00:04:37] He will expose himself to equal, if not more, liability in an interview with Tucker Carlson, which is what he's chosen to do instead.  

Beth [00:04:44] I think that's a good point. But for Chris Christie's presence on the stage and Chris Christie as a former prosecutor, I think could create some traps for Donald Trump on the stage intentionally that he would not have any chance of navigating well. 

Sarah [00:04:59] Well, before I was just as interested, and now that you said that, I'm sad.  

Beth [00:05:03] Really sorry. I always want to bring more light into your life, not darkness.  

Sarah [00:05:09] Oh, well, I saw this news and I thought, of course. But I am a little more interested in the Fox News component of this decision. I don't understand how much—I don't mean to be crude—shit Rupert Murdoch is going to eat that Donald Trump serves up to him before he decides to fight back. I thought his whole shtick was fighting back.  

And the fact that Donald Trump is instead going to do an interview with Tucker Carlson, who is engaged in a huge legal battle with Fox News right now, just seems like the biggest of biggest middle fingers. I don't understand why they keep rolling over after he's cost them millions of dollars in legal settlements, continues to lose elections that I believe them to be interested in winning. I don't understand it.  

Beth [00:06:05] I think we'll have more clarity on that question after this debate because the fight-back angle from the Murdochs is going to collide with we love to make money angle around this debate. Right? They want Trump to be there because he's a ratings magnet. The end. How many people are going to watch this without Trump there? Who knows?  

If people do watch it without Trump there and if somebody emerges that they could get behind, then I think they would do it. I think right now they're kind of rolling over on everything because Ron DeSantis isn't performing. If they had a candidate to really embrace, which they were trying to do with DeSantis, right? The New York Post was all in with DeSantis at the beginning of this thing before he had to actually like be out places doing the campaign. When he was just Florida's governor, they had a new horse to get behind. And I think they don't right now.  

So I think if the ratings are there and somebody comes out who looks like a contender, then maybe they fight back more. But it's just been too much of a glide path for Trump so far for them to fight as much as they might otherwise. 

Sarah [00:07:17] What I don't understand about that is your audience just loves the fight, even if it's between you and Trump. Like they love the fight. Isn't that the whole point, that they love the back and forth, they love the challenge of the status quo? Even if you're the foil and he's making statements about you all the time, like they'll probably tune in just for that. I mean, they do love to boycott. They did give up their favorite beer, but I don't know.  

Beth [00:07:41] I just don't know if that's true. I mean, Fox has been pretty public about losing audience share after their call of Arizona in the last election. They've been pretty public about saying that a lot of hardcore Trump supporters are going to OANN and to podcast and YouTube channels, and who knows what's happening. I haven't looked into the ratings since Tucker's departure. But I think Fox has paid a price. So I think they're making plenty of money to do the right thing, but they paid a price for it.  

Sarah [00:08:09] But your strategy around paying that price isn't working.  

Beth [00:08:12] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:08:13] Which is also what I would like to say to the other Republican candidates. The strategy is not working. This "apologize for him, you know, make excuses for him, do not attack him," I don't understand it. I truly, truly cannot comprehend why if you're in an election and you want to win and another person is beating you, you're constantly loving on them. 

Beth [00:08:44] It is bizarre. And I think that him not coming to this debate opens a real door for some of these folks who've been loving on him to this point to stop loving on him. Not coming to a debate is so disrespectful to the party and the process. To decide, I don't even need to share a stage with people who aren't polling as well as I am, I think it's gross, frankly. And I know that people will not like this, I think that President Biden ought to debate with Marianne Williamson and Robert F. Kennedy Jr.. 

I think the process is the process. And at a time when we have had so many significant challenges to the idea of America as a representative democratic republic, everybody ought to be doing everything they can to say, how can we be transparent, how can we all treat ourselves as people who are earning the nomination regardless of whether we've been the president before or are currently the president? We're all marching through this process, doing the work to earn the trust of voters. 

Sarah [00:09:42] Well, the process has always been different when there's an incumbent president. I'd be interested to see the numbers on how many incumbent presidents have engaged in debates during their primary season. I would bet it's very small. The problem is they're treating Donald Trump like an incumbent president. They are pretending like he didn't lose and so he's the incumbent. And what are the rest of you guys doing here?  

I just don't understand why the other candidates are assuming that position as well, because that's not a winning position for them. That's what I don't understand. Where are the strategy sessions? I mean, what are they hoping for? I don't understand what opening they're waiting for. He just got indicted for the fourth time.  

Are you waiting for him to change his mind and not do it? Because that's not going to happen. His freedom is on the line. If that is what this is about, look at his fundraising. Look where his money goes if you want to understand why he's running. He took money back from his presidential campaign to pay his legal bills. So you know where his priorities are. That's what I would say if I was a candidate. 

We know why he's running. He's running to avoid the legal liability he's facing. And whatever you think about the fairness of those investigations, that's what he's spending his money on because that's what he cares about. He doesn't care about you. 

Beth [00:10:59] That's what Will Hurd is out there saying. And Will Hurd has not yet qualified in the polls to make the debate stage on Wednesday. He still has time. Perhaps he'll get there. But as of this morning, as we're recording, he has not qualified. Chris Christie is saying that he's less than 5% in most polls. Asa Hutchinson is saying that.  

I think they just don't see a lane for that and so they are hoping to be the second-place choice, and that something bad happens to Trump. I think the hope is that something forces him out of the process legally. I think that is misapprehension that many Americans are laboring under right now. 

Sarah [00:11:34] Like what?  

Beth [00:11:35] That something happens to him personally. I think so many people believe that he will go to jail before the election. But newsflash, he's not going to. It's going to take forever. If he ever goes to jail, it is not happening before the election. And he can, and he seems like a person who would run from jail. I keep trying to say this as clearly as I possibly can. The legal process does not get us out of the political problem here. 

Sarah [00:12:03] Right. Well, I did see an opinion, I think, in The Washington Post, and that was the headline, the only solution is political.  

Beth [00:12:11] Yes.  

Sarah [00:12:11] And it's like, I don't want to start stinky, like, you know, God Bless America or whatever patriotic song to these people to say, like, this is it. Like, you have to do the right thing, which is also the politically expedient thing. Now, one person can't stand up and say that and have an impact. But if you all stand up and say that.  

I mean, look at the Democratic primary last time. Look at what we did. We got organized, people dropped out so that the politically expedient choice could take the nomination and effectively the White House. Like, you can watch what you guys did the first time, what we did the second time, and just coolly analyze the results. They're right there for you to look at. 

Beth [00:12:55] I just don't know if the voters will have it. I mean, there is a reason why they are all sticking with Trump, and it is because that's what they see in the voting pool. Even if you had the sort of establishment types all band together to try to do what seems like the politically responsible thing. So there's a universe where you could map this out and you say, like, "Tim Scott, Nikki Haley, Asa Hutchinson, Chris Christie, Will Hurd all together join the chorus. This was a mistake, 2020 was a mistake. The party should not have supported him as he challenged the results of this election. And we have since allowed ourselves to follow the lead of a person who does not care about this party and its longevity and who only cares about himself and for whom the stakes of caring about himself continue to get higher. That's been a mistake. And we need to depart from that now and have a real contest that is about ideas to move the country forward."  

Even if they all did that, I think that they all become less relevant to voters and it becomes more about the Vivek Ramaswamy, Perry Johnson side of the party. I think that the voters are not yet ready to move on. Now, the people I just named, the Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Doug Burgum, I forgot, that group of people bears responsibility on creating the situation. 

If everyone had stuck to the script post-January 6 and continued to say that was wrong, that was wrong, that was wrong, I don't think we'd be back here. I think the voters were ready to move on then and could have been kept marching down a path of move on from Trump. But that's not what anybody did. And so here we are, where he's, according to a CBS News poll, more trustworthy to most of his voters than their friends and family are.  

Sarah [00:14:47] And religious leaders by like 2 to 1.  

Beth [00:14:50] Yeah. 

Sarah [00:14:50] I found that poll so disturbing, so disturbing, because that's not even politics. That's like idolatry. That's brainwashing. You know, I just cannot fathom that people would answer that way. I don't know how the question was phrased. I mean, I don't know why I'm surprised. We've all lived this out where we would say that's not true. Well, he said it must be.  

But I'm looking at you in real life as a person you know and trust and I'm telling you, that's not what happened, it doesn't matter. I mean, I live that so many times with my friends and family surrounding Hillary Clinton. I worked for her. I saw her day to day. "This is not who she is" wasn't good enough.  

And I think where I struggle, though, is this is where the voters are, so we meet them. Is no one capable of leadership? Is no one capable of "I believe in my own political viability, my own political communication skills", like literally anything up, down, right, left, you know, fact, fiction that they can lean on that and say, I'm going to try to push this in a new direction, like I'm going to say what I know to be true and let the chips fall where they may like? 

Do I think anybody in the current lineup has the sort of charisma and strength of character to do that? I don't know. I'm not hopeful. But that's what's frustrating is like, if you're going to constantly respond to where people are instead of trying to offer them a vision, the best political candidates, including freaking Donald Trump to a certain extent, offer a vision. They offer something for people to attach themselves to instead of just following them around constantly.  

That's what DeSantis looks like. That's what they all look like. They just look like, you know, busy little bees just following, following, following. Where are you going? Oh, oh, oh, can we do something for you? And you know, look, I'm as guilty as the next person is thinking, Surely something will happen, and wake everyone up from their stupor. 

But what got me this weekend was the article in New York Times that said, Well, they think Joe Biden is such a mess that he's completely unelectable. So it doesn't really matter that people also don't like Donald Trump because Biden tripped over a sandbag and he's old, and so that's enough. It's very reminiscent of Hillary Clinton. 

Like the worse Donald Trump got, the further we got into Access Hollywood in the tapes, like the more she became heinous and now she was killing children and like... well, it had to be because the worse he got, the worse she had to get. So now it's like in the reverse. Like however badly they see Biden, it just opens up this lane for "Will then Trump would be okay because no one's going to vote for Biden. Maybe people voted for Biden and they're going to vote for him again. 

[00:17:37] Music Interlude. 

Beth [00:17:54] It's so distressing that on the Republican side it's like no one can vote for Biden, he's such a mess. And on the Democratic side, it's like we hope Trump's the nominee because no one's going to vote for Trump again. In the meantime, what I hear in my life and what you see reflected in some national polling is that people are just distressed by this election. They're distressed that we're doing this again. They are distressed that these seem to be the options. They're distressed at how inevitable the whole thing feels. And that's really where I sit in it. I'm just bummed about all of it. 

Sarah [00:18:32] Yeah, I think that's really terrible considering the mistrust of our institutions and the growing cynicism people have about our processes. That's what I think is so distressing, is this is not what we need right now. We don't need more people to feel like, you know, not to reference the moment at Rich Men North Of Richmond, don't care, won't care, are not going to care.  

Beth [00:19:01] That's why if I were on Team Biden I would want him to go out there and debate. I think he would do very well in a debate. I do not question his cognitive function. And I think a debate with Marianne Williamson and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. would clearly and crisply highlight what he knows by virtue of his political experience in the past four years in office.  

There's no way he walks out of that without just clearing the field in terms of who has the expertise to actually do this job. And I think that would be good for him. And I think it would be refreshing for people to hear him say, "I've got to earn this job again. I'm doing this job now. I like doing it. I think I've done a really good job. I think my record speaks for itself. But you know what? I still respect the process." And I think at a time when we need to develop more respect for... more trust in our institutions, where we need people to feel that the process is working for them, that the voters are empowered, I'm going to go out and do this.  

Sarah [00:20:02] I don't know. I don't think because of the way the internet works and because I'm no dummy, I've watched Robert Kennedy Jr, he is charismatic, he does have appeal. And so does Marianne Williamson to a certain extent. We've had her on our show before. So I don't think it's an easy, super self-evident conclusion that he would clear the field with them. I just don't. Not because I don't trust him, just because I think debates are longer than most people's attention span.  

So it wouldn't take much to pull a clip. And then we had my nightmare scenario where Robert Kennedy is like, Well, I have enough people supporting me and people really love me and I might not have gotten this nomination, so I'll run as a third party candidate. We already have no labels considering that.  

Let me say this as clearly as I can. That is a terrible idea. That is a destructive idea. We do not need a third-party candidate. And telling ourselves or anybody else that that is the solution is absenting yourself from reality, the reality of our process. And that is a bad, bad idea.  

And I just think that what the Biden campaign is functioning under is how party should work, which is, No, we don't do this. We have an incumbent president. We will not honor you with a platform or with a response. You freeze people out. That's how good, old-fashioned parties are supposed to work. You're supposed to enforce the dang discipline. Like, you're not going to get access to consultants, you're not going to get access to fundraisers. This is not how it works. And if the Republican Party had a similar approach, we might not be here. 

Beth [00:21:37] But the Republican Party is taking that approach just as Donald Trump. I mean, the rules are changing state by state to make it easier for him to amass delegates even as he totally snubs the RNC's processes. The Republican Party is doing... We are in a new landscape. How it used to work doesn't matter this time. 

I agree with you about the clips. You can pull a clip and make something go viral and both Williamson and Roberts can look like they're running for president. They got something going for them. They could both do something well. But I think the breadth of expertise that he could demonstrate on the debate stage with them would be worth doing. 

I also think the more that both of these nominating contests feel inevitable, the more likely it is that there is a serious enough movement around a third-party option that it will happen. I think that the less democratic both contests are, the more hunger and energy that will coalesce around another option. And even though I totally agree with you, our processes are not built for a third-party candidate to get where they need to get in the Electoral College. And not even to like get over the finish line, but to force us to Congress or something like that.  

We're not structured for that right now. I kind of wish we were, but we aren't. So that's a bad idea. And it is an idea that we have seen in the past will influence who wins this election. I don't know in what direction. Candidly, I think it depends on who the third party is. I think it's a bad idea, but I think people are going to want it more if it just feels like all of this is meaningless, my vote doesn't matter. 

Sarah [00:23:13] Well, I don't know. I just really don't like the false equivalency here. This is not the same.  

Beth [00:23:19] I'm not saying it's the same.  

Sarah [00:23:20] He is an incumbent president. This is the process. This is not a new stacked process. This has always been the process. If you're the incumbent president, unless you LBJ it and just opt yourself out, you're the candidate. They're not running for president, they're running for the nomination against an incumbent president. That is not the same thing. That is damaging.  

I understand that people are not super excited about Joe Biden running again. Guess what? People are often not excited about an incumbent president running again. The sheen has worn off. You know, that's just the reality of what it means to have an incumbent candidate. You got a wide-open field on the other side. I just think it's compressing everybody's feelings because it's not wide open on the other side. Again, they're acting like they have an incumbent candidate on the Republican side. And they don't. 

I mean, they kind of do, I guess, I don't know. Since like 70% of them think you won the election. It's bananas. I'm not bothered. I am not bothered by Joe Biden acting like what he is, which is an incumbent president who not only won in 2020, but racked up a historical win in the midterm.  

Beth [00:24:25] Yeah, I get that I'm making you mad, and that's not my intention.  

Sarah [00:24:28] Now, you're not making me mad. I'm just saying.  

Beth [00:24:30] I'm not saying that these are the same, but I am saying that overall, as things flatten out to a country filled with people who mostly are not political hobbyists and in a country where we always have that gravitational pull of oh, politicians are terrible, both of the parties suck, everything is bad, that is our gravitational pull as a country has been for a long time. Increasingly so now. I think you have to do something different if you want different results. And I think that it is a uniquely difficult road this election cycle for so many reasons.  

And I just would like to see some more creativity because I am so concerned that Trump is going to sail to this nomination, refuse to lose an election again, that he could overperform in the election versus my expectations, and that we end up kind of repeating the past.  

I think it'll feel different. I don't think we're going to have another January 6th. But I think something that we have not anticipated yet could happen that keeps us stuck in this place where we aren't talking about an agenda or a vision for the country at all, we are just still saying, what impact on the body politic do we want Donald Trump to have?  

Sarah [00:25:46] But you know what? Let me be the angel of darkness right now. Until that man is dead, that's where we're going to be. He is not going to absent himself from the process willingly ever. He's just not. Even if they all join forces and find some strategy that actually gets him out of the primary, like magic wand waving time, he's still going to use everything to his power to talk and fill the media and try to protect himself from legal liability, especially because the wheels of justice are turning so swiftly in his direction.  

Like, he's just going to become more and more elevated and more and more just like both an energy magnet and an energy sponge. Right? I don't see a way free of him, short of him dying. I hate to say it that way. I know that sounds harsh, but I truly don't. Do you? Do you see a way where he just goes quietly into that dark night? Because I, sure as hell, don't.  

Beth [00:26:49] I think always the greatest threat to Donald Trump is to become boring. I think most people are not willing to follow the intricacies for criminal proceedings against him as they drag on, which they surely will. I think that his show can get old and that's why he doesn't want to do the debates, because it's more exciting to have headlines saying he's not doing it. What's he going to do instead? How is he going to counterprogramming this?  

It is a big deal, though, that his counter-programming is limited to Tucker Carlson somewhere on the internet. As we're recording, we don't even know where that's going to be aired. Maybe it's going to be on X. Maybe it's going to be on Truth Social. But that is a really limited audience for him. That has got to hurt. It's got to hurt so bad that I hear all these strategists talking about maybe how you got a counter program is turning himself in in Fulton County the same day as the debate and just dominate the news cycle.  

His options are shrinking on staying interesting. And if he can't stay interesting, then it is kind of over for him, especially if somebody in the Republican field is talented enough to make themselves more interesting. Because that's kind of what it's about now, right? It's like it is all feelings and all who's the most captivating and who seems like the greatest fighter for us?  

So I think that he could fade away. Not go away. He will be in the news cycle. We will be talking about him. I personally think it's important to follow those legal proceedings and watch how our system manages the fallout from his presidency. But I think as far as the public mind goes, maybe he becomes old news. And I think that would be the greatest punishment for him. You know, I think that would be the hardest thing for him to personally handle happening. 

Sarah [00:28:44] I don't disagree with anything you said. I think his options are shrinking. I do think that makes him more dangerous. I mean, some of his Truth Social posts are truly unhinged. They're unhinged.  

Beth [00:28:55] We've been saying that since 2015 about his social media posting habits.  

Sarah [00:29:00] They're even worse than back then. They are. There is a different tone.  

Beth [00:29:04] I don't trust myself to judge that but I hear you.  

Sarah [00:29:07] It's that same tone, but it's an elevated tone. Because we've been following Donald Trump pretty closely since 2015. And I'll read him sometimes and be like, Should someone go check on him and see if he had a heart attack? Like this is wild.  

But I mean, is there something boring about a former president on criminal trial for trying to overthrow our government, especially if it's televised? I don't know. I sure hope not. I both hope so and hope not. I don't know. It's weird. It's a very difficult position to be.  

And it's frustrating because I feel like he has infected our body politic in a way that encourages people to tune out because they think everything's like that. And I both want to say, Yeah, you're right, because he's infected everything. And please, no, don't because our only hope of moving into a different type of body politic is not giving up because he's infected everything. You know? It's just this weird space.  

And to that vibe, I think that's the other reason I'm sort of resistant to the idea of further platforming or elevating RFK or Marianne Williamson's, because both of their vibes are a little kooky and they believe some truly damaging, dangerous things. And I don't want to say, well, this is where we are now. You know, if it was Bernie Sanders or somebody like him, the debate would be about ideas, about truly economic populism or whatever. But I don't feel like that's what would happen. They would be spouting things that are bananas, especially RFK Jr. I don't want more of that. I want more reasonableness. Do I think that will get people's attention right now? Probably not. But I don't know how we break the pattern.  

Beth [00:31:01] I don't want to use the word "dangerous" about RFK and Marianne Williamson because I want that word to have meaning. And for the purposes of our electoral system, the danger to me is a candidate who won't concede. And that's where I want to kind of limit my use of words like that.  

I think that, yes, both Marianne Williamson and Robert F. Kennedy Jr have promulgated ideas that I think are unwise and damaging. But those ideas exist in the American public. They didn't create them. They're going to be there anyway. And I think that the American public coming around to being a more reasonable voting populace requires us to trust that ideas, you know, just are out there and we all have to assess them on our merits and hope that our prevailing sentiments are more reasonable and hope that our prevailing sentiments are that we elect a president not to express how we feel about COVID, which is mostly in the rearview mirror or vaccines, but that we are electing a president to be the chief executive of the country, to be the commander-in-chief of the military.  

So a presidential nominating contest has for a long time been a place for the expression of lots of different ideas, some of them genuinely strange. But that's kind of part of the greatness of the process too, that some genuinely strange things happen, lots of people get an airing of their ideas, they go on to sell books and make speeches and be on cable television, whatever. But we whittle down and we trust that at the end of the day, the most people will coalesce around someone who we think we can hopefully do the job.  

And now that that decidedly has not happened with respect to Donald Trump, I think we have to trust that most people will look at this field and say, I don't want to do that again. Even if I am not entertained by or excited by my other options, I don't want to do that again. And that's what bothers me so enormously about him sitting this debate out. People like him better when he's not in their faces. And I think that Republican primary voters need to have Trump in their faces right now to make sure that that's really, really what they want to do again.  

Sarah [00:33:25] I think we're scratching at something really interesting here. I'm not trying to convince you about the debate. But I think underneath that is something really interesting, which is are we suffering from sort of the outside edges of political ideas getting too much attention or not enough?  

Beth [00:33:42] Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. 

Sarah [00:33:43] Right. And I, I think I might be leaning on too much attention because of the internet and because it feels like the voices are loud, they're getting lots of media coverage, and so you start to convince yourself that everybody thinks like that, or at least a significant portion of people think like that. But they don't. I don't actually believe that.  

I think that RFK has gained some traction by naming some distrust, particularly within the healthcare industry. But I don't think more media attention or a bigger exposure to people is going to sort of get that in the marketplace of ideas and everybody's going to go like, No. 

You know, they're going to go, Well, I'm also distrustful of X, Y, Z, so maybe because I share 10% of some of his bananas theories, the rest of it's not so bad. I don't know how we break that cycle, how we say, No, this is what this means. Because I think you're right. I think the more people see Trump... Although it seems like what really affects him more than anything is losses, like his polling dipped after the midterms where his candidates lost and the Republican Party suffered defeats. That's what really got people's attention. Because I do believe in marketplace ideas, I don't want to silence people but this is not about free speech.  

This is about the political process and how we build a political process that works and nominates people who are qualified to do the job. We've been falling a little short, guys. We're falling a little short. So how do we do that? I don't know. Maybe candidacies and the political electoral process should not be the center point of this massive free exchange of ideas. This isn't the marketplace of ideas. This is a job. We're hiring someone. This should be policy debate, this should be character debate, but it's turned into, you know, the fullest expression of everything that's present on the internet right now. I don't know.  

Beth [00:35:44] I think that it's so hard to get people to pay attention to any form of politics that the presidential contest feels like the only place to do that. I think that the less people feel their ideas translating off the internet where they're really present and powerful into reality, the more disillusioned they become with the political process, and that whole cycle reinforces itself.  

So that's why in my mind, you just let people debate and you hear them out and you feature the candidates and you see where it shakes out. Because I am concerned that the more the process communicates a sense of powerlessness to voters, the more people will opt out of that process. Now, I could be totally wrong about that and the opposite could happen.  

Sarah [00:36:37] There is also a certain amount of powerlessness in the presidential election built into the process. 

Beth [00:36:45] 100%.  

Sarah [00:36:45] That's the other big issue.  

Beth [00:36:47] It would be so much healthier if we took that powerlessness and said, "Oh, gosh, well, in my county, people get elected with like 7,000 votes. So I have a lot of power here, even if I don't feel it as it gets diluted by all of the people who vote for the president." But we're not doing that.  

I think the possibility that I want to articulate that council's against what I'm saying is that maybe as people see the process becoming less small d democratic, that will be unacceptable. Maybe it will be unacceptable to some primary voters that Trump doesn't debate. Maybe it will be unacceptable that Michigan is going to decide where 70% of its delegates go through party caucus meetings instead of through the public primary that they're holding.  

You know, maybe the more it gets into the stream that the parties are taking more control on this process and your vote doesn't matter that much, maybe that that'll get people invested in coming out. I don't know. The Trump years are such a mixed bag, right? Because, in some ways, they were so disillusioning. And in other ways, they activated all kinds of people to get involved in ways that they never had before, both good and bad.  

"I don't know" is where I end up on most things about this election. I don't know what Trump's future looks like. I don't know how the primaries turn out. I don't know what would be most effective. I'm glad I'm not a strategist this time because I think all of it is really challenging. I do know that if I go back to the lessons that I am trying to learn from the past cycles, personally, I want to take everyone a lot more seriously because dismissing people has not worked well for me. 

Sarah [00:38:29] Well, I am hoping that we know more after Wednesday night. We will be watching the Republican primary debate, we'll be on social sharing our impressions. We're going to talk about it on Friday. I do hope that the beginning of the debate season encourages more personal interaction with the process instead of just consuming media coverage of the process, because I always find that better and more instructive and less disillusioning. So watch along with us tomorrow night, everybody, the Republican primary debate.  

Beth [00:39:04] And we'll talk about it on Friday.  

[00:39:06] Music Interlude. 

Sarah [00:39:15] Outside of Politics today we're going to go in a wildly different direction than electoral politics. We're gonna talk about purses. Beth, you and I had noticed this amongst ourselves. I feel like your purses are getting bigger and my purses are getting smaller. And then we were talking about this and Alise was like, "I stopped carrying a purse. I don't carry purse almost at all post-COVID." And I would abandon my purse. I need the state of Kentucky... Shout out to our Secretary of State, Michael Adams. If you could make this happen, I would be so happy. I need the state of Kentucky to add our license to Apple Wallet.  

Right now, there's only like three states that you can do that. Because if that was the case, I would be living wild and free. I would just need my phone in so many circumstances because you don't have a key with a Tesla. I could just go stick my phone in my backpack and I would have everything I need. I have money, I have my license, I have my car keys. It's amazing.  

Beth [00:40:04] I've been in a real crisis around what to carry because I do like a big bag. I love the look of a big bag. I like having everything everybody needs. But as my kids are getting older, everybody needs less in my bag, which is nice. I did the, you know, cliche Lululemon crossbody for a while. I liked it okay.  

Sarah [00:40:24] Which is my preferred purse. A crossbody is absolutely my preferred bag.  

Beth [00:40:28] I liked it okay. I didn't love feeling like I was in a suburban mom uniform all the time. I have been doing a little backpack purse for the last couple of weeks because I've needed my iPad a lot. Just for some reason I've been going a lot of places and have needed my iPad. And it fits my iPad really well and it is a way to carry my iPad without strain on my shoulders. But nothing is really calling to me in this particular moment. I do think that if I could have everything in my Apple wallet, I would be delighted to mostly just be in the world with my phone.  

Sarah [00:41:01] Yeah. Freedom. Freedom. You know what I'm saying? Like, I loved when we were in Europe this summer that basically everywhere takes a tap. You just tap. You just tap and you're just living your life. Your tap and you're moving through life. I loved it. 

When we went to Disney World because Nicholas is the diabetes management dad, he carries all the stuff. He's an enigma six so that's just... He likes to carry... We've covered this on our premium channels. Nicolas is an everyday carry man. He likes all the things. 

I put my phone on one of those crossbody chains, and that's all I carried. That's not true. I put a lipstick in a pocket because I do like a lipstick. I do have to have a lipstick. But you can carry a cell phone and a lipstick in a pocket. It's plenty. That is fine. They put pockets in all the dresses now. You can just live your life. Even leggings have pockets.  

I have big bags that I love. I think they're beautiful works of art. I love them. But I'm not carrying them because they tear my back up. They hurt my back so badly and I just can't do it anymore. And like you said, it's not like I need diapers or wipes. I can stick a Band-Aid or two in my purse. And even if I don't have a Band-Aid or two, guess what? You can find a Band-Aid most places. So I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it anymore. 

Beth [00:42:14] Yeah. With older kids, the purse really becomes like a shelf in your house. Like it's just a place you want to stick things. So it's nice to not have the place for people to stick things. Now, I will confess something as I continue to be cliché suburban mom. I wanted to not like the Stanley Cup and I genuinely like it.  

Sarah [00:42:32] Really?  

Beth [00:42:33] I really wanted to not like it, but I think it's great. I love the straw, I love the handle, I love the amount of water that it carries. I love how cold it keeps the water. I love it. And Chad likes to tease me about that. And in his teasing, he bought me a holder for my Stanley Cup with a strap on it so now I can carry it crossbodying. 

Sarah [00:42:52] Oh my God.  

Beth [00:42:52] And I can also stick my phone in a pouch on this holder.  

Sarah [00:42:56] No. No. 

Beth [00:42:56] And I hate how much I love this.  

Sarah [00:42:59] I know. 

Beth [00:42:59] I hate how much I love it. But when I'm just going around the house doing laundry or whatever, to always have my phone and my water just attached to my body, it's really lovely.  

Sarah [00:43:08] No, Beth. 

Beth [00:43:09] I know. I know.  

Sarah [00:43:10] Beth, I'm staging an intervention.  

Beth [00:43:11] It's the worst, but it's also the best.  

Sarah [00:43:13] I bought a Stanley when they were kind of hard to get, but I gave it away because I think it's too damn heavy. There's a thing here.  

Beth [00:43:20] If you could carry it on your body. 

Sarah [00:43:23] I don't want a heavy purse. I don't want a heavy water bottle. One of our beloved listeners, Max, several years ago when I got my peloton and was obsessed with it for Christmas, he sent me these two lightweight plastic water bottles. And I have one in the fridge all the time, so I just sub it. It's always cold and they're pretty small, so I drink them pretty quickly and then I just fill it up, put it back at the next one.  

I've also, just speaking to moms and mom problems, solved the glasses issue in my house. Everyone has a water bottle. Which I've tried before, but now when they leave them on the counter, I fill them up with fresh water and put them in the fridge so they're cold so everybody knows where they are. I don't have to keep them on my counter, which was exactly what I didn't want to do. And for months this has been our system and it's working very well, I might add. But I'm not carrying around my house. No. That's insane. What do you do when you sit down? Does it like bump up against you?  

Beth [00:44:17] Keep it on. If I'm going upstairs or downstairs with laundry, I put it on. If I'm walking out to the garden or the pool, I put it on. Because I've got towels and stuff to carry- 

Sarah [00:44:25] Your husband is a force for evil in this debate. He sent me Crocs with all these everyday carry attachments and was like, "Send this to your husband." And I said, "I will not do that, Chad. I absolutely will not do that because I want to stay married. So no. No, no, no." 

Beth [00:44:45] What you have to understand about Chad is that he loves things and he loves to be a little clever and funny. And he loves funny gifts. Loves them. He absolutely loves to buy things for people when there is a little inside joke element about it. I love it.  

Sarah [00:45:03] I love that. But I'm not... And I hope Nicholas skips this episode because he is not allowed to have every day carry Crocs. Absolutely not. But let's be honest and let me put my cards on the table since we're talking about this and husbands. Part of the reason I can make this journey is because the simultaneous journey my husband has been on has been carrying more and more stuff. So as I have stopped carrying a purse, he basically has started carrying a purse. Let's just be honest about this. This is what has happened.  

Beth [00:45:31] Well, another thing that has facilitated my gradual reduction of stuff that I carry in a bag is that I have a little basket in my car of stuff that we need.  

Sarah [00:45:41] The car is a purse. The car is a purse.  

Beth [00:45:43] Yeah. And keeping that organized and just a little space in the back of my car, I put my picnic blanket back there and I put my little basket of things, I have coloring books and crayons and wipes and whatever. Just all right there, then I feel like, okay, I'm good to go. Because I live in a car place, I don't need to have it on me as long as it's with me in the car. 

Sarah [00:46:04] Yep. Yeah, 100%. That's when I stopped being as into purses and carrying purses more regular is when I moved to Paducah. I mean, obviously, the purse discussion is completely different if you don't have a car and you live in an urban area. Although like I said, when we travel, I still just carry a very lightweight crossbody because I know I'm going to be on my feet walking. I don't want heavy bag. I don't want to carry a backpack all day long. But again, do you know what I do? I make my kids carry the backpack with water bottles, a lot of it. And I'm like, "While I have you, you be carrying the backpack with all the stuff." 

Beth [00:46:33] It's totally different based on where you live. It's totally different based on the ages of your children. It's totally different based on how much your spouse carries, if you have a spouse. It's totally different based on what job you do. We work from home, so we don't need to carry big bags in the world because our command center for absolutely everything in our lives is in our houses. Like when I went to work every day, I would have like laptop and files and all the things I might need at the office that I can't grab easily. It's a different scene. 

Sarah [00:47:03] Yeah. It did seem, though, that since Alise, who does work from home but also has a little baby, was still like, "No, I don't carry a purse." I just feel like maybe this is a broader trend or movement. I can't wait to hear from all of you guys. This is one of the places where the ideas are so passionate and also have no stakes that I think are the best types of things to engage about with our listeners on the internet.  

Beth [00:47:23] Do you think that having the small child might be part of it, though? Because I definitely use the diaper bag as my purse sometimes. 

Sarah [00:47:29] Oh yeah. 

Beth [00:47:29] And the stroller can become a purse. Like there's a lot of purse alternatives when you got a baby.  

Sarah [00:47:34] Listen, the stroller is not a purse. The stroller is a car alternative. You could buy so many things in a stroller. It's amazing. It's so helpful. I kind of miss the stroller sometimes. I don't miss the diaper bag, but I do miss the stroller.  

Beth [00:47:47] Yeah. And I wish we could all live in the world as we live at Disney because the magic band is it. Just being able to, like, unlock the door, get on the ride, buy the thing, all of it with the magic band, that's what I aspire to. 

Sarah [00:48:01] Well, we're so close with the phone. Come on. Secretary of State's unite, please put all our driver's license on Apple Wallet so we can all live on with our lives. Please and thank you.  

Beth [00:48:08] And if that could be the real ID so that that's all we need at the airport, too, that would be really terrific.  

Sarah [00:48:14] Yeah. Come on, guys. Let's live in the future. The Jetsons had a vision, let's live it out. All right, everybody, thank you for joining us for this episode of Pantsuit Politics. Again, please check out the show notes for all the information about Paducah. We're gonna have so much fun. And we will be back in your ears on Friday. And until then, keep it nuanced ya’ll. 

[00:48:32] Music interlude. 

Sarah [00:48:49] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth [00:48:52] Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah [00:48:56] Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth [00:49:02] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Danny Ozment. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. The Lebo Family.  

Sarah [00:49:53] Jeff Davis, Joshua Allen, Melinda Johnston, Michelle Wood, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.