Spheres of Influence: Israel, Gaza, and State Elections

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • The Ground Invasion in Gaza 

  • Upcoming Local and State Elections

  • Outside of Politics: Our Roman Empires

Thank you for being a part of our community! We couldn't do it without you. To support the show, please subscribe to our Premium content on our Patreon page or Apple Podcasts Subscriptions, or share the word about our work in your circles. Sign up for our newsletter or follow us on Instagram to keep up with everything happening in the Pantsuit Politics world. You can find information and links for all our sponsors on our website.

EPISODE RESOURCES

Sarah and Beth are booking speaking engagements for 2024 now. Find out how to bring Sarah and Beth to your organization or learn about upcoming events here.

This podcast and every episode of it are wholly owned by Pantsuit Politics LLC, and are protected by US and international copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. We hope you'll listen to it, love it, and share it with other people, but not with large language models or machines and not for commercial purposes. Thanks for keeping it nuanced with us.

TRANSCRIPT

Beth [00:00:00] Hello friends. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Before it begins, we want to let you know that this episode includes adult themes. So if you're not in a place to hear that right now, we totally understand. Thank you so much for being here.  

Sarah [00:00:21] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:23] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:26] Music Interlude  

[00:00:26] Thank you for joining us for a new episode here at Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. And today, that different approach involves just a lot of processing what's happening in Israel and Gaza and particularly some of the feedback that we've received on previous episodes. We are thinking about how that situation is evolving. We are thinking about what's happening in America in the wake of that situation, and we are just sitting with all that we cannot know or be certain about as we feel the heartbreak and suffering and intense emotion from people all over the world. And then we are going to focus on what is closer to us. There are elections coming up next week for governors and state legislators and mayors and school boards. These off year elections don't ever get as much attention as presidential races do, but they are very important and have big impacts in our daily lives. So we want to talk about some of those key races and what they might mean as we approach elections next week. And then Outside of Politics, we will discuss our personal versions of the Roman Empire and the primary texts in our lives.  

Sarah [00:01:59] We also wanted to say a huge thank you to all of you for listening. Today is the eighth birthday of Pantsuit Politics. Beth, I'm starting to notice that when people ask how long I've been podcasting, I say eight years. That gets their attention. We've reached a point where the amount of time we've been doing this lends some legitimacy to something that is often hard to get people to pay attention to.  

Beth [00:02:25] It is like not a hobby anymore. Eight years in. I also notice in myself that I am drawing on experience as a podcaster in a way that I used to always draw on experience as a lawyer or as an HR professional. I am starting to notice like, well, this kind of dynamic happens about this time of year. Or when we talk about something like this, here's what usually follows. Or ooh I tend to lean too much on this. Like, the body of work behind us is starting to inform me the way that previous professional experience had. And that feels really rewarding. It feels really rewarding.  

Sarah [00:03:08] Well, because it's not just to me the amount of time we've been podcasting, now it's the amount of time we've been in relationship with our listeners and our community. That is incredible. To the point where it's like with some people when I say, "Well, they're a listener," I'm like, that's not really accurate. I mean, they are a listener, but at this point we're friends. At this point, we've hung out. At this point, we've been to events in real life together. And it's so incredible. And especially coming off Paducah where we got to really see it up close and personal and the listeners got to be together over an extended period of time and really just see and feel what we've built here is really, really special. I love to celebrate it every year. I love birthdays generally, so.  

Beth [00:03:56] It's really special. It's also special to me to feel like I have a different relationship with the world because of the work that we do here. And it's nice when we discuss something that it's not the first time we've ever discussed it. It's not the first time we've thought about it. We have a ton of research behind us now. We've just logged the hours to approach this differently. And that deepens the relationship with listeners because I feel like people do know that we've logged those hours, and they trust that when they hear from us, it is a deeply considered opinion. We're not asking anyone to adopt those opinions, but the trust that it is deeply considered and the mutual respect that flows when everyone is deeply considering their opinions is a really special and rare thing.  

Sarah [00:04:43] So during this month of gratitude, we just want to say we're so thankful for all of you who support the show and listen to the show with your dollars, with your time, with your words. Was very good planning on our part, Beth, to start this podcast during the month of November when the emphasis is on gratitude, good job.  

Beth [00:04:59] So with deep appreciation for the strength of connection that exists between us and all the people who listen, we are going to move into a discussion of probably the hardest conflict to process and describe and feel our way through that we've had during our eight years here. And we hope that you will join us as we continue to think about what's happening between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip.  

[00:05:23] Music Interlude  

[00:05:34] We wanted to bring you some updates on what's happening in the Gaza Strip. The second phase of Israel's campaign against Hamas has begun with a ground incursion. That ground incursion has come later and has been more limited than anticipated. It is still very forceful, very deadly. Israeli forces are working from the north of the Gaza Strip primarily, but there is activity throughout the entire Gaza Strip. Again, we're talking about a very small area in terms of land space and an extremely densely populated area. And Israeli forces are contending not only with people living above ground, but this network of tunnels that Hamas has constructed underneath the Gaza Strip. It's reported that Hamas militants in those tunnels have food and water and supplies that will enable them to last for several months. Meanwhile, people living above ground are struggling to get access to food and fresh water and medicine. Lots of reports about Israeli forces disabling all communications in the Gaza Strip for long periods of time. Authorities have started to allow some people to leave Gaza and enter Egypt. It is not a lot of people, but it is some people, especially injured Palestinians, have been allowed to leave.  

[00:06:59] I was listening to a report this morning about people lining up, just hoping that their name is on the approved list to go into Egypt. In addition to the campaign against Hamas in Gaza, we are seeing increased violence in the West Bank. Some from IDF forces, some so extreme that the Israeli army has condemned individual actors within those forces, but some from the forces themselves and others from settler extremists. And then there is violence breaking out between settlers and Palestinian protesters. So the situation in the West Bank is becoming much more fragile. All of this against the background concern that other Iranian proxies in the region and perhaps Iran itself will be provoked. Now, most of the reporting that I have seen as of Thursday morning when we're recording, is that international activity and particularly U.S. activity is holding as a pretty strong deterrent for others in the region to get involved here in a bigger way than they are already involved.  

Sarah [00:08:07] Yeah. I'm incredibly disturbed by the violence in the West Bank. And would expect Israeli leadership, particularly after being advised and understanding the risk of expanded regional conflict, to take a more active role and tamping down that violence and certainly not playing a role in the West Bank. But look, there has also been so much analysis and reporting and calls for Netanyahu to step down, that he has lost faith with the Israeli people. He'd lost faith with a broad section of the Israeli populace before October 7th. But I read a report that the Biden administration is thinking like, well, who will come next nurturing those relationships? Whether he'll even make it through this conflict, because he got in trouble himself for trying to blame it all on the Israeli military and then apologizing, which is something he doesn't often do. And so I think that's what's so difficult, is that the leadership in Israel does not and has not for a long time provoked a lot of faith. And that's what you need in a moment like this, especially when they are carrying out strikes at the level that they are in Gaza.  

Beth [00:09:27] And when those strikes purely from a strategic perspective are so complicated for a country, when you know that you have 200 or more of your citizens being held hostage in this network of tunnels and that every action you take jeopardizes the safety of those people, when you know that so many civilians are at risk and even if you don't care about those civilians-- which I think is an unfair assumption-- but even if you decide callously that people are casualties of war and you don't care about those civilians, Israel is always aware of how it's perceived on the international stage. And Israel is acutely aware of the importance of allies and partners to its defense. And Israel knows and is hearing very clearly from leaders across the world that it needs to take care with civilian lives in this matter. And so if you are an Israeli citizen and you have Netanyahu at the helm here, who you have been disgruntled with perhaps for a long time to matters unrelated to October 7th, and then he lets you down in such a big way by this happening on his watch and the way he has responded to it, and then you think about the complexity of managing it going forward, it's a lot. It is a real strain on a system that was already strained by its efforts to remain democratic.  

Sarah [00:11:06] I don't think it's an unfair assumption to say that the Israeli government, and particularly their Israeli military, does not care about the Palestinian people. I get it. Look, I think right now this particular situation is the hardest and most difficult training in doing what we talk a lot about here at Pantsuit Politics, which is holding two things to be true. This is like the zenith of that exercise. This week I was thinking watching the discussion in our own comments and platforms, watching the way that this debate conversation, whatever you want to call it, has played out across the country and thinking, how would I describe where I come from? I think with regards to the Palestinian people, I do not respond to the shaming critique. Because I know what I've said in the past. I know what I've felt about the Palestinian people in the past. I can probably go back and dig up some of our audio during the Abraham Accords, when I said this message to the Palestinian people is go fuck yourself. And hopeless people are dangerous, so I get that. I understand that. I have no instruction or analysis or even critique of Palestinians using the language of martyrdom in a place like Gaza that is hell on earth. Is a crater of death. I don't know. What am I supposed to offer? I have nothing to offer. I would say nothing to a Palestinian person or a Palestinian American about how they should feel about this.  

[00:12:52] But the other truth I have to hold is I think instructing everyone else to feel that way, instructing everyone else to feel as the Palestinians do, is dangerous for the Jewish people. Not just in Israel, but around the world. And I think that's the two things we have to hold. We can acknowledge the suffering and the reality and understand that everybody can't feel that way. That's dangerous. Because if the answer is everyone, particularly the American military, adopts the posture that this is genocide and Israel is a historical mistake, then help me understand how that changes the situation or reduces this human suffering. Because I don't see that path. In the same way I don't see the path that Israel is taking, particularly in the West Bank, as reducing human suffering. In the same way I don't feel shame when people sort of try to hit us with our stance on Israel. I know how much I've criticized Israel and Netanyahu's record and governance. I don't feel any shame about that. Both of us have been vocal in our criticisms, and we just have to hold both things. We have to hold both things. And not mean that because we may be disagree somewhere along the line that means we don't care about the human suffering. I think there's this sense that when the suffering is this immense, that this is a moment where one thing can be true. And I wish it were. I wish it were true. I wish it were true that the greater the human suffering, the clear the political analysis. I do, I wish that. But it's not true.  

Beth [00:14:48] As I have taken in feedback about our coverage here, I also don't feel angry or defensive. I understand why emotions are high. I understand that people of good faith and big heart can reasonably disagree over the strategy here. Every expert that I read concludes with, I don't know. Some version of I don't know what the path forward is that respects all of the people in this region and their dignity and their interests, their stated interests. Not the interests I'm projecting on to them, not the interests that I wish they had, but their stated intentions. I don't know the path forward, and so I don't feel any pressure to myself have some sense of what should be done here, because I don't know. And I am inclined to rely on the experts and our government because I believe that they care about the Palestinian people as well as the Jewish people, as well as all the other people that are in this conflict. All of the foreign nationals that are being held hostage. I mean, it's not just two things are true. It's 10,000 things are true at one time in this very small space.  

[00:16:06] Now, look, I recognize that my attempts personally at emotional regulation can make me sound cold. In my private life where I am not trying to communicate, I am lost in grief for what is happening. I look at every image that comes out. And, listen, I take those images from newspapers because social media-- a lot of what we're seeing as images coming from Gaza are actually from Syria, which is another place that I get just lost in grief over. So the images of record, the verified images coming out, I look at them and I look at these families-- I saw a couple this morning holding the hands of their kids, and I just thought this could be anyone in my life. I just felt tremendous love for this family who was waiting to see if they would be allowed to leave. This is the problem. Words fail me about the intensity of this tragedy. And I think when words fail us, it is tempting to go to the shelves of our vocabulary and say, well, it must be genocide.  

Sarah [00:17:27] Yeah.  

Beth [00:17:27] And I, I get that the intensity of that word helps us grapple with the feeling of suffering here. I do not think that word in its legal definition applies, and I think it's very important to describe as precisely as possible what's going on here. I think that there may well be a callousness by Israeli forces about the people who are casualties of this war. I think callousness is probably fair. I think there is probably some recklessness in the rage that Israel's leadership feels here. I think that's part of why we hear the Biden administration trying so hard to counsel Israel as a good friend to walk back from some of that rage and be thoughtful. I sense in some of what we are hearing about our own comments on this matter, a sense that people are listening for specific words like genocide, because those are the messages that say, "No, I care about this a lot." And I want to be able to hold several things to be true at once, which is that I care a lot and I want to be cautious about the way I describe what's happening, and I don't know what should happen here. I think people are listening for ceasefire as an indicator of care. And, of course, I want all of the violence to stop. I do. It's not that I am opposed to the idea of a ceasefire.  

[00:19:19] I don't know how a ceasefire occurs here that doesn't lead to a proliferation of more violence. I hope someone smarter than I am has an answer to that. And I have heard the administration beginning to say, "I do think we need a pause. I do think we need to pull back." And I just trust that they are being careful about their words and they have, again, better information than I do. But I guess I just want to reach out to people who are so frustrated with us, to say it is not that I am sitting in my house rooting for Benjamin Netanyahu or the IDF, it is that I see that Hamas has created an enormous level of suffering for both Palestinian people and the people of Israel. That they have taken a situation that was always precarious and made it incredibly dangerous, that riding on to that situation now are very unwise, cruel and I think illegal actions by Israelis in the West Bank, which is a totally different situation than Gaza, but certainly related. It is that a million things are true at one time here. And I am trying to sort through them carefully in largest part because I'm sitting in America, and we can see in America the results here to people here in this country of being less than careful with our language about this.  

Sarah [00:20:48] I am happy for people to be mad at us on social media. Go for it. If that makes you feel better, fine. We are all searching for sources of control. If people find it by being mad at us, I am happy to contribute in that manner. I would like them not to be mean to Maggie, but otherwise it is what it is. I'm just bringing this up because I think we're all there. We're all trying to figure out if I'm a person who cares, if I'm an ethical, moral person and consider myself to be so, what does this mean? The New York Times did a piece about Israelis, and they were just talking it like I've lost empathy. And if you can sit with someone like that and lecture them about genocide and open air prisons and the position of the Israeli military, Godspeed. I'm not up for it. I'm not up for it. And some of them are. We saw a video of a grandfather whose grandchildren are being held hostage and he was like, "I don't care if they release every Palestinian if I get my grandchildren back." This is an Israeli man who security is most definitely affected by the release of Hamas prisoners. And he was like, I don't care. Do it anyway. You want to talk to him? You want to argue in different position with him? I don't. I don't want to argue a different position with Palestinians who use the language of martyrdom and support Hamas. I don't want to do that either. I have no ground to stand on. Several years ago, when I was a commissioner, I went to a police fundraiser and a member of our police department was talking about how there's been a shift in policing to professional policing. And he said, I don't see myself as some white hat out there saving the day. I do my job, I follow the processes set before me. All of them aren't perfect, but they are the ones we've decided on. And then I go home, not thinking that I'm in charge of saving the world." And that conversation has never left me. I think about it all the time.  

[00:22:52] And so I think it is intoxicating to be the white hat on social media when you don't have a lot of control. But what I have to do is trust the processes and trust the people with the expertise inside those processes. And I do right now. I do not think Joe Biden or Antony Blinken would stand idly by if they felt like there was a genocide taking place. I don't think either of these men or the hundreds of people in the State Department in the Foreign Service don't care. Do I think that they are in the impossible position of looking at places across the globe where enormous human suffering is taking place and in doing the excruciating calculus of what could we do? You want to look at it some excruciating calculus? Go check in on Haiti. It's awful. It's awful. The situation was awful before October 7th, and it will remain awful probably for a while. I am encouraged that the two state solution-- which we had Kerry Anderson on our show years ago, who said nobody even talks about it anymore. It's off the table. I'm encouraged it's back on the table. I'm very encouraged by that. And it's hard to find anywhere to be encouraged right now with this situation. But I just have to trust the processes, not because they're perfect, not because there's probably people in the Foreign Service who, if we had a live calling show, would call me in right now and say, "You're wrong. It is genocide." I'm sure that's true. I'm sure that's true. But at the end of the day, I cannot be the white hat. That does nothing that make me feel better. And the reality on the ground is what shifts the situation on the ground. The loss of civilian life in Gaza, particularly around the hospitals and the refugee camps, it doesn't matter how many times they say Hamas is hiding below these places, it still is extracting political capital from the Israeli position on the world stage. And I trust the people and the processes in charge to use that as best they can to change the situation, improve the situation, end the situation. And that's all I can do. That's all I can do.  

Beth [00:25:08] And I think trusting the processes does not mean feeling that the processes produce perfect outcomes. And I think it means accepting a lot of things that are unacceptable. Because every decision is an excruciating decision. I was listening to a report about Ukraine this morning and a commentator for The Economist said it's such a stalemate right now. And it's going to continue to be a stalemate until something equivalent to the invention of gunpowder happens. Because you have, for the Ukrainians, an incredibly motivated force now with Western training and weapons. And you have on the Russian side a whole lot of people. And he said this and I don't know this will ever leave me, he said, "For the Russian government, people's lives are the cheapest resource. And for the Ukrainian government, people's lives are the most expensive resource. And so they're operating from two fundamentally different places. And those places bump up against each other and they just keep bumping. There's no breakthrough." And that is the authoritarian mindset, that people's lives are the cheapest resource. And do I think that there are people in the Israeli government with that mindset? I do think so. I hear none of that mindset from our listeners who are Jewish. I hear only from our listeners who are Jewish unbelievable agony over what has happened in Israel and what will happen to so many innocent people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. I hear our Jewish listeners holding all of this together at one time. And, again, that's why I just want to be very careful here. We got pushback after our last episode covering this because we reference people saying things like, "Well, I know the Holocaust was bad, but." And we heard from several people who said no one's saying that.  

Sarah [00:27:29] Oh, they are.  

Beth [00:27:31] And let me just again tell you how I'm processing this. I was a Republican right when we started this show. And I said all the time about statements like, "We should ban all abortion," no one says that. And what I meant was maybe no one around me says that, or it's an extreme minority of people who say that, or they don't really mean that. And what I had to learn in a super shitty process is that just because I wasn't hearing it doesn't mean it wasn't being said. And just because I thought it was a small number of people didn't make that the case. And actually a lot of people were saying it and they meant it. And over time, it started to happen. And so I understand that some of you who listen and vehemently believe that a ceasefire is necessary right this second and that what's happening in the Gaza Strip is genocide, I understand that you aren't saying, well, the Holocaust was bad, but. That you aren't attempting to discount the suffering of Jews across the world and people in Israel in particular. But it is out there. People are saying it and it doesn't take many people to say it and mean it for that to become dangerous. And that's what we're seeing here in the United States, people becoming dangerous. And we are seeing here in the United States this divide, this break again, this exploitation of existing divisions in our politics. And that is why I am trying to be so cautious about this, because what sounds unreasonable to you and extreme to you, quickly in our country gets written onto this canvas that is so explosive and so dangerous. And I don't want to do harm. I cannot do much good here. I do not want to do harm.  

Sarah [00:29:43] Well, and I think to your point about who uses the lives as cheap resources, I think that can be true with regards to Palestinian lives with the Israeli Defense Force. I think there is a callousness and a disregard. I think it is also fundamentally true about Hamas.  

Beth [00:30:00] Clearly.  

Sarah [00:30:02] They put their own people on top of the tunnels on purpose. They tell their own people not to leave. And so I don't feel any internal conflict when people want the language of free Palestine. To who, Hamas? The leadership of Hamas? That's no freedom. A thing I would not argue to a Palestinian. It's not in my place.  

Beth [00:30:33] That's right.  

Sarah [00:30:34] I understand that call from them. Again, I even understand the language of martyrdom, even though it is so dangerous. And that's why I just have to depend on outside voices: The United States, Britain, France, coming in and exerting any control or influence, which is probably more appropriate. Because I think this idea that like, well, we give them weapons, we control Israel-- no, no. And so this idea that what influence we have, we can exert as best we can, is what I have to depend on. People with more expertise who have more information, who are holding the complexity of all these 10,000 things that are true at one time using a set of very limited tools to influence this as best they can. I know that is a shitty option.  

Beth [00:31:32] It is. And the other thing that I can do sitting here in Kentucky, in the suburbs, it's say to people here in the United States that no one deserves to be threatened the way that some of my Jewish friends are being threatened right now. And I am deeply concerned for the safety of mosques in the United States. I understand that many Palestinians are Christian here in the United States. I do not believe that houses of worship that are Christian are going to have the kind of threat to them that synagogues and mosques will. I am deeply concerned that people who vaguely look like they could be from this part of the world are in danger in the United States right now. And I don't want to do anything that contributes to that. I don't want to do or say anything that adds to the pain that people feel about this. And even that feels unavailable, right? It feels like if you want to not hurt anyone here, you just can't speak. But not speaking also hurts. And so it's terrible. And I feel for everyone. And I agree with you, Sarah. I am glad that we have listeners who trust us enough to reach out and say, "I vehemently disagree with you about this," and I am fine with people being angry about the way we have approached it. And I also just promise to keep paying attention and doing our best to show up here honestly, processing as we can now.  

Sarah [00:33:15] And it's so limited. I don't have a depth of pain available to me to understand what it would be like to lose 45 members of your family. I don't have it. And I think that's the anger and rage you feel. I think people see a level of suffering that they can't even-- I can't contemplate it. I've been through some hard things in my life. I can't contemplate it. And I think that almost surfaces rage as well. This sense that like this is happening and I can't even fathom the depth of pain and suffering to exist in death. To exist in death. That's what it's like on the Gaza Strip right now. As it is also like for the families of these hostages, to exist in this interstitial hell. Like, I don't have that available to me. And I think that sense of existential guilt or frustration, I think that's what we feel bubbling up as well. Maybe something would be broken inside of us if we were all having civil discourse in the face of this hell. I mean, maybe it's just an honest and appropriate outflow. As much as I would love to think the higher the stakes, the more reasonable the debate, we are at the end of the day human beings. And so maybe this is the best we can do. I don't know. I don't think our best is available at any point on Instagram. But that's just my personal opinion.  

Beth [00:34:57] I share that opinion. And, look, I also just always feel this pull to witness the complexity, absurdity, I don't know what, of being so attuned to this hell on earth and not to others. Those images out of Syria are unfolding all of the time. You mentioned Haiti, Sudan, the weaker people in parts of China. There are so many places across the world that we could do this, that we could become on a daily basis, embroiled in the details of absolute unjustified horror. And our brains cannot take it all in. And I think this one is different to us in the United States because again of that process, because of those decisions that have already been made, because of relationships built over time. Same thing with Ukraine. It grabs us because of history and relationship and promises and interests, if not charity. There are many, many reasons that certain conflicts grab us and others don't. And I just kind of have to trust that too. I don't know how you prioritize and rank and sort the allocation of attention or weapons or training or boots on the ground. I don't know. And I am so thankful that those aren't my choices to make. I'm grateful for the people who make those choices. And I just in my heart try to send them wishes for wisdom and discernment and rest, because that's the best I can do. It is very hard to talk about anything else in the same sentence as the discussion that we just had. We are going to do that, though. And as we do it, I'm thinking about a beautiful substack piece from [inaudible] this week where she talked about how when the world feels this overwhelming and is, it is important to focus on your sphere of influence. And we have an opportunity in our sphere of influence as elections approach in the United States to do that local good. So that's what we're going to discuss next.  

[00:37:26] Music Interlude  

[00:37:45] Sarah, as we approach these off cycle elections, it is a big deal for us in Kentucky. Our constitutional officers are elected off cycle, so we have gubernatorial races in both Kentucky and Mississippi coming up that are probably going to be the headlines emerging from these elections. And then we have some ballot initiatives in Ohio, spotlight on Virginia as well. So it wouldn't just kind of go through those. How are you feeling about the governor's race in Kentucky?  

Sarah [00:38:15] Feeling great.  

Beth [00:38:16] Are you?  

Sarah [00:38:17] Yeah.  

Beth [00:38:18] Good.  

Sarah [00:38:18] Are you?  

Beth [00:38:19] I think so.  

Sarah [00:38:21] Yeah. I feel fine.  

Beth [00:38:23] I probably have more respect for our governor, Andy Beshear, than any other politician maybe in my lifetime. I just think he has performed so admirably in that role. And then I get in my head about how difficult the numbers are in Kentucky for a Democrat. But he has a 60% approval rating, and I am flooded here with commercials. I don't even watch a lot of TV with commercials. But when I do, I see many very smart ads, I think, from the Beshear campaign that are like, "I always vote Republican, but I'm voting for Andy Beshear." And so I really hope that he will sail through to re-election.  

Sarah [00:39:10] Yes, I hope it is smooth sailing. I'm sure it will be tighter than we expect it to be. As the lieutenant governor says, people come home, they go home to the party. I get it. But I think Andy Beshear's about to be popular on a whole new level because everybody's going to be obsessed with how to do it. How to get people to split tickets when we say we don't split tickets anymore. That's sort of the accepted political narrative is that people's partisan identities have hardened and people don't vote Democrat and then vote Republican. But I think Andy's about to prove that wrong again. And I think there's some really, really valuable lessons from that.  

Beth [00:39:50] I hope that's true. His opponent is Daniel Cameron, our attorney general in Kentucky. Daniel Cameron is a Mitch McConnell protege. And every time we see one of his signs, which we do quite a bit because there are some deep Republican enthusiasts in northern Kentucky. Every time we see one of his signs, Ellen pipes up and goes, "Daniel Cameron is too extreme for Kentucky." [Crosstalk]. 

Sarah [00:40:15] We have Daniel Cameron ads, but they are obvious like Republican strongholds because they're not a proliferation throughout every neighborhood of the small, easy to get, little plastic yard signs. They're like the big ones that people have made because they have a big intersection. Whereas, Andy's signs are everywhere. They're everywhere in every neighborhood. In places you wouldn't always expect, but you don't see those like little Daniel Cameron signs. You just see the big ones, which I think is reflective. Look, I had a political mentor who told me signs don't vote and it doesn't matter. But I have been through too many elections where the signs really were a bellwether. And so now I pay attention to the signs pretty closely, because I just think in an age where people are frustrated politically and feel sort of cynical about politics, the willingness to put a sign in your yard-- obviously I have an Andy Beshear sign in my yard-- it just it means something.  

Beth [00:41:07] In Mississippi, we have really the inverse of our situation in Kentucky. We have an incumbent Republican governor, Tate Reeves, who is very unpopular. His approval rating is only 46%, only 71% among Trump voters. That's unusual. That Trump block tends to go very high for people they feel are their people. So he is the second least popular governor in the country. His opponent is Democrat Brandon Presley, who is Elvis's second cousin. Super fun fact.  

Sarah [00:41:38] Fascinating.  

Beth [00:41:39] And he is running as a pro-life Democrat on a pledge to expand Medicaid. This election in Mississippi is really different than past gubernatorial elections because it used to be, as recently as the last one in Mississippi, that the governor had to win both the popular vote and a majority of the state's House districts. That is a reconstruction era law.  

Sarah [00:42:06] I was going to say that sounds racist.  

Beth [00:42:06] That's right. That was put into place to minimize the power of black voters. And Attorney General Eric Holder during the Obama administration brought a lawsuit to challenge this, and it brought a lot of attention to it. And eventually Mississippi voters repealed the law. And so this is the first gubernatorial election where just winning the popular vote will win the governor's race.  

Sarah [00:42:27] Seems like that should be enough maybe at the presidential election too, just throwing that out there.  

Beth [00:42:32] So Brandon Presley is very focused on doing voter outreach to say to black voters, I know you feel that your vote has not mattered. It really does this time. It really, really does. Please show up and vote.  

Sarah [00:42:47] Well, that's good. I would think that considering the problems in Jackson and the mismanagement of that entire situation, because even if you don't live in Jackson, even if you're a strong Republican voter, that's embarrassing. You should be embarrassed. And I'm sure lots of people are. And they blame Tate Reeves, as they should.  

Beth [00:43:09] In Virginia, control of Virginia's legislative branch is up for grabs in this election, and there are several layers to how observers are going to be analyzing what happens in Virginia. The first and most obvious layer is what does this say about Glenn Youngkin? He, as the governor, has spent a lot of energy campaigning to have Republican control of the legislature in Virginia so that they can advance his agenda. A big part of that agenda is a 15 week abortion restriction, which would be a very big deal because Virginia is the only southern state that has not significantly restricted abortion after the Dobbs decision. And so people are looking at these elections in Virginia to determine something about whether 15 weeks is sort of the moderate consensus position among Americans. And if this is a winning message for Glenn Youngkin, will Republicans across the country who haven't known what to say about abortion since the Supreme Court overturn Roe versus Wade, glom on to 15 weeks or will this be rejected by voters as too extreme?  

Sarah [00:44:24] Well, listen, Virginia gets a lot of play any time because it's purple. And so people pay a lot of attention to Virginia's elections, particularly with so much interest in Glenn Youngkin and whether or not he will be running in 2024 presidential elections. Getting kind of late in the game, but Godspeed. I think if somebody wanted to show up late and sort of occupy a lot of the media attention, something tells me they'd get a lot of it. And I think this is so interesting when paired with the Ohio referendum on abortion. We talked earlier in the year that Ohio voted down a change to their referendum process through which they would need more than a majority to pass the referendum. They said, "No, we'll stick with the majority." And so what do the Republicans in Ohio do? Well, let's just make this as confusing as humanly possible with regards to the language of this referendum that's trying to assure access to abortion in the state of Ohio. And I think it's another area of the Republican Party where you see this internal fighting. The people that want to win elections know that this is a failing strategy, that this is an issue that is a losing one for Republicans. So the desire to now all of a sudden pull these referendums off the ballot, that's what I thought was so interesting, is now they're like, oh, crap. This turns out people for Democratic candidates sort of like low engaged voters turn out for these abortion amendments. And so now the 2024 efforts in like Florida and Arizona and some other states are like, no, no, no, we don't want to do that. We changed our mind. Pull them off the ballot. In combination all of these issues together, particularly around abortion and not just access, but sort of the anti-democratic tendencies surrounding these referendums, is disturbing.  

Beth [00:46:16] I am so excited to see what turn out looks like in Ohio, because in addition to this abortion initiative, there is a marijuana legalization initiative on the ballot. It is also a lengthy proposal that includes not only legalizing marijuana but also regulating it. And there are lots of layers to that. Taxation layers, there is a program to consider social equity in connection with licenses. There are so many pieces to this marijuana initiative. But it would seem that marijuana and abortion would be two very potent initiatives to bring people out to vote.  

Sarah [00:46:59] Well, it's so funny that marijuana is on the ballot in Ohio because I texted you that I did not have it on my Halloween bingo card to engage with an 11-year-old about Andy Beshear stance on medical marijuana. But that is what happened to me while I was passing out Candy. This group of like 11 and 12 year old boys walked by and one of them said, "Don't go to that house. They have an Andy Beshear sign." You know me, I'm not intimidated by a bunch of 11-year-olds who think they know what they're talking about. I said, "Oh, my candy is not good enough for you because I'm going to vote for Andy Beshear?" And one of the boys up front was like, "Shut up. Her candy is good enough." But then the other guy, he was like, "Well, he supports medical marijuana." And I was like, "Right. Most people do, don't they?" I said, "People are in pain and they need medical marijuana." But I was like so surprised that was what he called up. I'm like, really? Are there people out there just appalled that Andy Beshear supports medical marijuana? But I guess there are. Y'all, we got bigger issues like fentanyl. Who gives a shit about marijuana anymore?  

Beth [00:47:56] And I think it's really interesting. I mean, I get that it's a little bit complicated. I say just a little bit. I am broadly in favor of legalizing marijuana and I wish the federal government would just do it so that it wouldn't be such a mess for states that do it. 

Sarah [00:48:11] We can all just move on.  

Beth [00:48:12] I also understand, though, that living in a place where marijuana has been legalized, there are some drawbacks and we probably need a bunch of social efforts wrapped around the legalization to talk about responsible use, that there is a place and a time, that we don't want this to become our entire identity, that we don't want our entire city to smell like weed constantly. I mean, there are some ramifications of legalization that I think are difficult, but on the whole I am in favor of it.  

Sarah [00:48:41] But Lord, that's like policy stuff we can figure out.  

Beth [00:48:44] That's right. And I just see it in a lot of ways. It's like a workforce issue right now. We just have way too many people with criminal justice barriers because of marijuana usage that are preventing them from living good, productive, responsible contributory lives. And I'm so tired of that and just ready to move on from it.  

Sarah [00:49:03] I mean, I just feel like the productivity of our society would increase on so many levels if we stop voting on it, if we stop testing for it, if we stop interviewing around it. I think we would all just get a lot of time and energy back. Just saying.  

Beth [00:49:16] That's true.  

Sarah [00:49:17] We would more than balance out what we would lose from people being high.  

Beth [00:49:22] I hope that that's correct. I do want to do some of that other work around it. But yes, I hope that's correct. So those are the big races that will be watched by national media. But please go vote even if you are not in any of the states we mentioned. New Jersey's state legislative races are happening. And across the country, there are mayors and school board members and dog catchers, so many elected offices that really do impact your life. And thinking again about Osha's [sp] reflection on our spheres of influence, I know that voting for the constable or the county commissioner doesn't feel like you're doing anything for people who are suffering in drastic ways across the world. We'll link her piece. She very beautifully points out that it does matter when we do our part and this is our part to go vote. So please do that next Tuesday.   

[00:50:18] Music Interlude  

[00:50:35] Okay. We always end our show by talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics. And frequently we describe what we do here at Pantsuit Politics as slow news. This is the slow Outside of Politics. So the men think constantly about the Roman Empire meme has crested and fallen and now we are ready to talk about it.  

Sarah [00:50:54] Yeah, but it was so popular. Now it's just become a part of our lexicon. I see so many captions where people are like, this is my Roman Empire. This is my Roman Empire. So we're not going to talk about whether or not our husbands think about the Roman Empire. We're talking about what's our Roman Empire? What's the prism through which you view so many things?  

Beth [00:51:16] I have thought a lot about this, and I think the answer for me is that swing of a pendulum that I talk about all the time, our tendency to overcorrect, our tendency to say, "Hmm, let's try something new, but let's not try something a little new. Let's try something drastically different than where we were before." And as I think about presidential elections and trends, there are just so many ways that I see that pendulum influencing how I perceive what's happening, that I've decided I think it's my Roman Empire.  

Sarah [00:51:51] My Roman empire is celebrity/celebrity gossip.  

Beth [00:51:54] Okay.  

Sarah [00:51:54] That is the prism through which I view so much of the world. For lots of reasons, I learned this at the feet of Ann Helen Petersen, often what we're doing with celebrity gossip is working out cultural or societal issues or angst. I think all the time about how she compared Brangelina and that whole situation with Jennifer Anniston and how closely it aligns with Debbie Reynolds and Elizabeth Taylor and Eddie Fisher and how we're working out. How do we feel about marriage, how do we feel about commitment, how do we feel about adultery? How do we feel about adoption? Because celebrity is also the ultimate achievement in status and status fuels so many things in our lives. So when you can watch this sort of extreme manifestation of status and what it means as far as mental health or family relationships or addiction, it's applicable is applicable in so many other places, right? Because celebrities are still human beings, despite what some people, I think, think or treat them as. Listen, I'm thinking about celebrity gossip and celebrity itself. Probably 30 to 40% of the time. I absolutely 100% think about celebrity every single day in some way or another.  

Beth [00:53:22] Okay. Closely related question for you. I think this is different than the Roman Empire. But I really like learning about what people consider primary texts of their lives. So for me, Into the Woods is a primary text, and I see it everywhere. I probably do think about it once a day. Like, what happens after Happily Ever After? Nice is different than good. There are so many threads from Into the Woods that I just recall them like Bible verses. So do you have a primary texts like that?  

Sarah [00:53:53] I don't know if I quote them, but I do think Ann Helen's like she used to do celebrity gossip, academic style, and she would go back and you would learn about previous scandals. And I think about those all the time. I'm trying to think if there's another sort of celebrity text, I mean, probably People magazine. Do I still check people.com? I do. I don't really read celebrity gossip rags. I guess my probably new primary text around this subject in particular is the C-Word with Lena Dunham and Alyssa Bennett, which is an excellent podcast that examines like how women are treated through the lens of celebrity and celebrity gossip. And I think it's so good and so interesting. So that's probably like my primary text 2.0 surrounding celebrity gossip right now.  

Beth [00:54:40] We would love to hear what your Roman Empire/ primary texts are, and we so appreciate you spending time with us today. Please do not forget to go vote on Tuesday if you have elections, and please check to make sure that you do. They might not be big sexy ones, but we still want you to go out and show up anyway. We will be back with you next week. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.  

[00:55:02] Music Interlude  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

Alise NappComment