The New Satanic Panic

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Matthew Perry’s Tragic Death

  • All Saints Day

  • The New Satanic Panic

  • Outside of Politics: Happy Halloween

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude  

Sarah [00:00:33] Hello and happy Halloween. Thank you for joining us at Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Often that approach is seasonal. We can chase the headlines every day, but sometimes it's important to take a pause on the daily grind of crisis and look for bigger themes. Since today is Halloween, we wanted to talk about that season, including commemorating the dead. How we all think about the presence of evil. And we're going to let Doja cat lead the way, y'all. We're going to let Doja cat lead the way. And, of course, Outside of Politics, we'll talk about the holiday of Halloween itself and how we're celebrating.  

Beth [00:01:05] I love telling my kids about my job and saying, like, "Today I'm researching Doja cat just for my show. It's for work." And often the work that we get to do is so fun and stimulating and interesting that you can't even believe it's your job. If you are not already a premium member, we hope that you will join us. We have many fascinating conversations there. This week we are speaking with a top content creator on Onlyfans, a listener who does this as her work offered to share her experience with us after Sarah's conversation over the summer about sex work. It was a very illuminating discussion. This listener was so vulnerable and generous in talking about her time and experience. You're not going to want to miss it. It is available to $15 premium members and we hope that you'll come check it out.  

Sarah [00:01:50] And yes, we had a false alarm with my appearance on You and Me Both, Hillary Clinton's podcast. They did what we always do, which is, "Oh, no, the news is requiring a change in the content calendar." So they moved up a podcast, but today is the day I will be on Hillary Clinton's podcast. I've not heard the edit. It might just be me for like 30 seconds. I don't know, but I can't wait to hear either way. Either way, I got to hang out with her for an hour on Zoom. That's actually all that matters to me.  

Beth [00:02:13] Well, I'm very excited for you, and I'm excited to continue to reflect on some strange things with you here today on this show and on our premium channels.  

[00:02:21] Music Interlude 

Sarah [00:02:33] This episode comes out on Halloween. Beth, I love Halloween, but I love the next two holidays in the liturgical calendar even more, which are All Saints Day and All Souls Day, where we commemorate the lives that have been lost over the previous year. And I'm choking up a little bit because we lost a celebrity, an actor, a friend who was very important to a lot of people, Matthew Perry, over the weekend. Really, really heartbreaking loss. He played Chandler on Friends, a blockbuster sitcom that became a part of our culture, became a part of our psyches. Lives on famously with Gen Z, who still watches reruns today. He was very public with his struggle with addiction, and he died over the weekend at the age of 54.  

Beth [00:03:20] We commemorated All Saints Day at my church on Sunday with a candle lighting ceremony for all of our church members who have passed away over the last year. It was a lot. When you see a table full of candles like that, it makes you realize how much a year contains. And then when you think about what a small population is represented on that table of candles, it's hard to think about. And losing Matthew Perry, in one sense, I try to remember his one candle on that table, no less, no more. At the same time, he was a fixture of a certain formative period of my life. I was crazy about Chandler Bing. I loved that sense of humor. I loved that way of being. I had just a random episode of Friends on as I folded laundry the other day, which is something I never do. And I was noticing for the first time how frequently they hugged each other, this group of friends. Not romantically, just hugs. And I said to Chad before we got this news about Matthew Perry, we don't hug enough around here. We hug a lot in our house, but with Friends, it was nice to see. It just felt good to watch them hugging each other. And I think there are lots of little cues like that that made this group so beloved that I've never even parsed out. I have really appreciated his openness about his struggle with disease. It hurts me and it's hard to even talk about him as Chandler, knowing that he couldn't go back and watch it because he just saw his addiction and he saw the horror that he was going through as they filmed these episodes that brought so much joy to so many people, including me. And I really value that he has said, "Because I was Chandler, I can help a lot more people. So I'm trying to do that." And that he really tried to build this legacy of helping people recover. And I will forever think about him saying that the thing that you have to avoid is alone because the disease waits for you. He said something like it does one armed push-ups just waiting for you to be alone because that's when it's going to come in and get you. It's a symbol of something that so many people face in so many different forms across the country. And I think that's part of why lighting that candle for Matthew Perry is even harder.  

Sarah [00:05:37]  I think between being a part of a piece of pop culture that was such a behemoth and sharing the struggle with addiction that has also become quite the behemoth in American life, those two pieces of his life really bonded him in a parasocial way, of course, because we didn't know him in our lives, but bonded him to so many people, even people who weren't big Friends fans. I watched Friends. I loved Friends, but I've never watched a rerun. I'm not a person who is still very devoted to it. But obviously, I knew about his struggle and was rooting for him. I just think that's what's so heartbreaking. I think so many of us were rooting for him, especially after the reunion special and sort of the conversation that arose out of that. And I don't apologize for being heartbroken when celebrities die. I just don't. I don't think that's a fair or kind critique. Artists really become a part of us. Their art becomes a part of us. That connection you feel with someone, the connection people feel with us when we're in their ears all the time. I mean, we talked about that with Deuce [sp]. We talked about that with Rachel Held Evans. When someone creates something that helps you feel seen or helps you feel less alone, that's beautiful and important. And when that person is gone, it should break your heart. And I think I always love All Souls Day because you know that the grief is so acute in the beginning, but having the ability and the ritual once a year to say it's still there, the love is still there and the grief is still there, is so important. And I feel like we don't create enough spaces in life to do that. So I value the ones that we do because I think we hold it in our hearts. But it's such a solitary feeling that when we can come together and say we're all carrying grief and love for people we've lost, all of us all the time, it's just really, really important and really valuable, especially when the world is particularly hard and particularly full of grief at this moment.  

Beth [00:07:57] Yeah, I would not say that. Matthew Perry It made me feel seen or understood or shaped me in the kinds of ways that people like Deuce and Rachel Held Evans. It's a different relationship to me. I still think it's sad. He just entertained me. He just did. And that's beautiful and that's a gift. And when celebrities die, especially celebrities who you think of as your contemporary, it just sheds that light on where you are in life. It makes me think of the chat we had with Jennifer Senior about how as you get into middle age, everything comes just a little bit tinged with sadness because that is just about 30 percent of your life at this point. It's heartbreaking. And that's if you're lucky, that's if everything is going great. And I do think losing someone like Matthew Perry, who was such a gifted entertainer, even in this period of his life that was so hard on him and that took so much from him. As everything else is so heavy and hard, it takes a little bit from an escape valve because I know a lot of people who still watch Friends, who watch the office, who watch Parks and Rec, to go to these spaces and times of life mentally that were less complicated than this one now. And when those folks start passing away, it adds some of that heartbreak to those experiences. And that's tough. That's a loss.  

Sarah [00:09:28] It's so true. Almost Famous is like one of our most favorite movies of all time. And I don't think I watched it for 10 years because I was so heartbroken when Philip Seymour Hoffman died. And the same with The Sopranos. I really want to watch it again. I think it's one of the best TV shows that's ever been made. And I'm still really, really sad that James Gandolfini died. And so it's hard like, do I want to watch it? Because the whole time I'll be thinking, oh, James Gandolfini. It really it's so true. It really does take a piece of it and make it really bittersweet. It just pulls you out of it. It pulls you out of it and reminds you that they were real people. They're not just this incredible character that I connected with. But we did watch Almost Famous recently with my 14-year-old, and it was a beautiful experience because he connected with it. And I'm so happy that he loved it. That's like the best. And that's the thing. It's like when you create something beautiful, it will be sad to watch Friends for a while, but not forever, hopefully. I don't think Matthew Perry would want that.  

Beth [00:10:22] Yeah, I still get choked up when I hear an Amy Winehouse song. I love her music. I think her voice is a marvel, and in some ways the music has always been there from her to be rich and layered. It was tragic as it was being made, but it's just another layer of life added on to these things that people made them.   

Sarah [00:10:44] Well, it's very intense when you realize people will interact with the art and never know them as alive. I feel the same way about Amy Winehouse. I've never watched the documentary about her life, even though I'm a massive fan, because I just can't. I was there. I remember. I don't need to relive her downfall and her crumbling. It was heartbreaking at the time. I don't need more detail to make it even more heartbreaking. And I feel that way about Whitney Houston. Whitney Houston has become something to people, like they just use her music all the time on Peloton. And I think like, oh, that's because you didn't live through it. You didn't watch her and root for her and want her to be okay so desperately and live when she was at her peak when you could listen to that voice and know that she was out there, was going to sing more, just existing in that true perfection. It's so hard because it's like she's just becoming like a--  I guess it's beautiful in a way too she's becoming just this beautiful voice to people. But it's hard to realize the art lives on and the real person really fades into the background.  

Beth [00:11:54]  I've talked before about my love of 60 Songs That Explain the Nineties. And Rob Harvilla has been on our show, and I'm such a fan of his. And often he confronts this issue all the time of a tragic, too soon end of life for someone who was very, very famous and contributed a lot culturally. And often he will say, "I want to just leave this person right here at this shining pinnacle moment." And that gets back to the lighting of candles to me,  that you just have to trust that what you leave here is that flame and hopefully that flame over time gets to be the most beautiful contribution you made and the rest gets to sort of fall away. And I hope that that's what's happening. As I watched my middle school daughter and her friends adore I Want to Dance With Somebody, I hope that's what's happening for Whitney Houston. And I hope as everyone talks about how hard Matthew Perry worked to pull other people out of addiction with him, whatever details emerge about his death, I hope that his flame gets to be that generosity of spirit that he exhibited to people fighting the same difficulties that he was.  

[00:13:11] Music Interlude 

Maggie [00:13:30] Hi, this is Maggie. Before we continue today's episode, I just wanted to let you know that Sarah and Beth talk about the difference between real sexual abuse scandals and the satanic panic in the next segment, and we wanted to give you a heads up, since we know this is a sensitive topic and encourage you to take care as needed. All right. Enjoy the rest of the episode.  

Sarah [00:13:47] Beth, I was driving, I was listening to the radio as I want to do from time to time and I don't want to get out my phone and select something to listen to. Just tell me what to listen to. 96.9. Thank you so much. And Doja Cat's Paint the Town Red came on. Such a bop, such a freakin bop comes on. First I'm like, this should be interesting. There are very many curse words in the song, how is this going to work on radio. Chorus comes on and this is what I hear.  

Music playback (paint the town red) [00:14:17]  I let that get to my head. I don't care I paint the town red. Bitch I said what I said. I'd rather be famous instead. I let that get to my head. I don't care I paint the town red. 

Sarah [00:14:30] And I thought, hold up, wait a second. What did I just hear?  

Music playback (paint the town red) [00:14:38] Mm, she the devil. She a bad lil bitch, she a rebel. She put her foot to the pedal. 

Sarah [00:14:43] Beth, they bleeped out devil. Discuss.  

Beth [00:14:49] When you said this to us in Voxer, I thought, no, they didn't. And I had to go back and listen a couple of times. I was really surprised because-- I don't know. This is no disrespect to Doja Cat and her artistic contributions, okay? But when I see a video of her or a photo or listen to her lyrics, it all strikes me as like it's coming with a wink. Like, it's kind of hilarious. Like, she's just kind of trying to say, like, "All right, let's just keep pushing this, okay?" But I don't know, it never comes across in a menacing way to me. And I'm pretty pearl clutchy. You know what I'm saying? I could interpret menace, I think, if menace were there. But it was shocking to me that devil came out.  

Sarah [00:15:42] I know. And I thought, well, in some ways, look, there have been very many artists, including Doja Cat, who plays a lot with her image, who pushes not only her critics, but her fans. She will straight up get into fights with her fans. She does not care. That have been playing with this imagery. We had little Nas X in his video for Montero where he takes a pole down to the hill. He gives Satan a lap dance and then I think he kills Satan and takes his crown for himself. And, listen, Doja Cat videos, they're kind of scary. The demons in her video are legit. They're not like winky kind of campy like and Lil Nas X videos, they're legit. And then, of course, we have Kim Petros and Sam Smith. They did this big Grammy performance. I watched it live that night. Did you see the performance of Unholy?  

Beth [00:16:29] I did not watch it live, but I have seen it since.  

Sarah [00:16:32] Well, and it's like, of course, you guys the song is called Unholy. Also [inaudible]. But it's like they're dressed in red. There's lots of pole dancing. People have devil ears on. So this is an aesthetic that has gotten a lot of attention. But I thought, what exactly? Even if you have a big problem with this, even if you think this is too far, there's too much satanic imagery, whatever, what do you think bleeping the word devil is going to accomplish exactly?  

Beth [00:17:09] More interest in what they're doing is the answer. I mean, that's the only realistic answer. And that's why I just don't pay much attention to any of this. I do see it as an aesthetic. Even her kind of scary videos still feel like they have a wink behind them to me, I don't feel like there is some kind of underlying message there that is trying to draw people into a cause. I guess maybe because the world is heavy and scary enough, I just don't find any of this worrying on any level.  

Sarah [00:17:40] Well, I think what's interesting to me and what I do think is important, and I don't know if it's worrying, but I think your use of the word menace is correct. I think Doja Cat and Kim Petros, who's a trans artist, and Lil Nas X who took so much heat when he first came out for having a country song and being openly gay, the menace they feel is as LGBTQ artist. And I think they're not the first ones to say, "Oh, you feel menaced? Okay, well then let's play with that a little bit. Let's deal with that menace you feel, because I'm saying things about sexuality and gender that you don't like." I was reading some of the history that we're going to get into with the satanic panic in the eighties when Tipper Gore came out and made her like Filthy 15. So many of them were artists that were playing with gender and sexuality. And so it's like I think that's what's so interesting. It's really not concerned parents who are worried what, that your child is going to turn into a Satanist or are you worried that your child is going to have ideas around sexuality that make you uncomfortable?  

Beth [00:18:44] Yeah, 100 percent. I guess the Satan imagery to me is so unthreatening because this was such a part of our childhood. Because people have been talking about devil worshipers and heavy metal and music and this kind of imagery and the danger of an Ouija board as long as I've been alive. Ellen said to me over the weekend, my third grader, "Did you know that if you play this Billie Eilish song backwards, you hear Satanic lyrics."  

Sarah [00:19:12] Here we go. We're going to play them backwards again.  

Beth [00:19:14] I was like, honey, people have been saying this about everything my entire life. It is so dumb.  

Sarah [00:19:19] I love it.  

Beth [00:19:20] Just roll your eyes and move on. And that's how I feel.  

Sarah [00:19:23] I guess because we're buying records again, so you could actually play them backwards because you couldn't do that on Spotify.  

Beth [00:19:30] I guess so. I wanted to probe where this was coming from, but I thought that would make it more interesting to her so I left it alone. But I think you're absolutely right that the panic everywhere right now is about gender and has been. That was the underlying thread going back to the satanic panic of our childhoods too.  

Sarah [00:19:51] So let's go back to that because history rhymes and there are some consistent threads, I think, around the satanic panic of the 1980s. If you have not heard of this, congrats. It was wild. It was a time in the eighties there was a lot of cultural undercurrents that I think are not as relevant today. Women were going back to work. You see women's labor numbers returning to pre-COVID levels. There was a lack of good daycare. It was hard to find. It was expensive. That also sounds very familiar. And I think the most interesting piece in the eighties is that after decades of pretending that sexual abuse didn't exist, you were starting to get real attention to the issue of sexual abuse, especially involving children. And, again, what have we been dealing with over the last few years? Larry Nassar, Jerry Sandusky, these issues of like-- honestly, like a conspiracy to hide or deny prolific sexual abuse, right?  

Beth [00:20:52] And church scandals.  

Sarah [00:20:54] And church scandals, right?  

Beth [00:20:55] Horrifying church scandals.  

Sarah [00:20:56]  And so you had people freaking out where hundreds of people, particularly this one daycare in Manhattan Beach, they arrested five people, accusing them of satanic rituals and abusing children in the daycare. But you had like hundreds of people swept up in this. I was reading an article this morning, the prosecutor's office in California spent $15 million going after these daycare people that were ultimately completely acquitted.  

Beth [00:21:20] They're still in Texas, as recently as this summer, overturning convictions related to this period of time. There were thousands of people across the country who were charged and arrested and tried and some convicted. And since those convictions have been overturned, people have been exonerated. But this was massive.  

Sarah [00:21:42] Well, Beth, hold on a second. Now, before we get into this even further, I do think we need to take a quick time out and establish some foundational beliefs between you and I. Do you believe in Satan?  

Beth [00:21:55] No.  

Sarah [00:21:56] Same. Do you believe in demons?  

Beth [00:21:59] No.  

Sarah [00:22:00] Same. See that, I think, might be our fundamental problem here.  

Beth [00:22:04] And our inability to articulate this panic well.   

Sarah [00:22:08] Right. To join the panic is because I'm not panicked about Satan because I don't think Satan or the devil exists. It's not that I don't believe in evil acts, but I do not believe in like demonic forces out there working on us. But like--  

Beth [00:22:24] People do. 

Sarah [00:22:24] People do. People really, really do.  

Beth [00:22:28] I believe in darkness. Can I say that? Like, I believe in darkness. And I believe in our inability to fully understand our brains. And I believe in our inability to control large sections of our brains and what they do. And I believe in evil acts, and I believe in selfishness and greed and all forms of elevating your ego over others in very destructive ways. But do I believe in, like, horned beings that are pulling strings in society? I do not.  

Sarah [00:23:03] I think it's the presence of power. It's the presence of something that's organized, strategic and powerful that will take the sort of regular bad behavior of humans and elevate it to something even scarier. And, look, in a lot of these articles I read, there was a researcher and he polled people, 25 percent of Americans polled thought that satanic ritual abuse was widespread across America, 33 percent said that members of satanic cults were regularly abusing thousands of children every year. And 28% said that there was a secret gay agenda to convert children to gay or trans lifestyles. So you put all that together and then Doja Cat comes along and it's like, well, you better bleep out devil because they're out to get our kids.  

Beth [00:23:43] In some senses, I wish that I believed that all the child abuse that happens could be connected to a supernatural being, instead of grappling with the fact that children are most often abused by people who are supposed to rights and protect them.  

Sarah [00:23:58] Exactly.  

Beth [00:24:00] I wish that I believed that we were engaged in this constant good versus evil struggle that seems easier to me than what I believe we are actually immersed in all the time. So I don't mean to be condescending about people who view this differently than I do. And certainly from a theological perspective, I know that I am in a really different place than lots of other Christians. It is just not my perspective that we can attribute the bad things happening to a ritualistic, organized cabal of people who worship some some kind of darkness in the world.  

Sarah [00:24:43] Yeah. I mean, this got some real QAnon. QAnon has revitalized a lot of this. And I don't think that QAnon is unrelated to the anti LGBTQ legislation we see. I don't think QAnon is unrelated to-- like it's easy to say like, well, I can see Doja Cat like a wink and a nod. But you have people out there and not just Marjorie Taylor Greene, but like Ben Shapiro saying-- this is a direct quote from Ben Shapiro. "The elite in our society are fully in line with the ideology of satanic fealty expressed by Smith and Petros." What?   

Beth [00:25:18] Yeah. I mean, The Daily Wire is pouring a ton of money into creating children's Programming because they think that there is a desperate need for a different message to reach your kids. I think all these things do go together. 

Sarah [00:25:32] Listen, I don't think Doja Cat is out there trying to do charity work in the same way that Madonna wasn't doing charity work when she wrote Like a Prayer and filmed that video. They are artists. They are trying to provoke. They are trying to articulate. And they're trying to sell records. So I don't want to put them up on a pedestal. I thought the performance was over the top and kind of ridiculous. But I read one article where they interviewed some head person in a satanic church, and he was like, it was just meh. I did learn that the satanic church doesn't actually worship Satan, nor do they believe in God or the devil. They're opposed to anything supernatural and all spirituality with no belief in the afterlife. One of their key tenets is that individuals are their own gods. Now, I don't agree with that.  

Beth [00:26:29] I don't believe that either. I guess I just kind of am at this place in my life where I am really comfortable with a lot of things not being for me.  

Sarah [00:26:36] Yeah.  

Beth [00:26:37] I think Doja Cat is fascinating. I think her music is catchy. You listen to it, it kind of sticks in there.  I'm not going to seek it out in my life. It's fine. I'm not mad at her. I don't have any particular feelings whatsoever. And that's just kind of how I feel when I hear this is what Satanists do. Okay. People believe a lot of things. I believe a lot of things that sound very weird if you describe them in just clinical terms. Like whatever, we're all just doing our best here.  

Sarah [00:27:03] It does make me sad, though, because I do feel like, like you said, it's a type of worldview that can seem innocuous. But I don't even think it seems innocuous to people who believe it. People who believe in QAnon don't think it's innocuous. They think the world is on the line and it's just a hop, skip, and a jump before you're the moms for liberty and the stakes are so high. It's not just our kids. It's Satan. It's evil. It's the people who want to destroy America. And it's like, this is like the stock of the stew that creates really dangerous political situations.  

Beth [00:27:41] And I just think those dangerous political situations are going to be created in the name of all kinds of things. Like I did not at all appreciate seeing a photo of our new Speaker of the House surrounded by some of his compatriots kneeling in prayer on the House floor. I do not think that's good or healthy or appropriate. And I am a Christian who prays. I prayed in my church this weekend for the congregation. I believe in prayer, but I don't think that that's the right place or way to do it. And a lot of what is done in the name of whether you're talking about moral panic or culture war or save the children or whatever, I find very destructive and harmful. And so any time I am in a place of feeling a righteous sense of certainty, I try to walk myself back from it because but for a pause, go I. And think there are plenty of places where serious consequential things are happening. And if I am relying only on my faith to help me answer those questions, I think I'm missing something. And I think if I am part of a group and I'm finding my identity and belonging through just criticizing someone else's faith or someone else's beliefs about the world, that's not great either. I don't know. I just feel like I need to hold all this very lightly.  

Sarah [00:29:07] Well, I kind of get this in space where I'm like, It doesn't matter. But I also make the argument that advertising and culture does matter and it is important. And we are working out something and they don't spend millions of dollars on these videos and these songs because they don't matter. I think that's the tough part. The tough part is to say to someone, "Hey, can you articulate why you need the word devil bleeped?" And let's talk about what's underneath that. I'm not saying it's irrelevant. I'm not saying that Doja Cat is not trying to poke some people. And it may be in unfair ways. I don't know. Listen, I'm here to defend that that's a bop. Because it is. It's a hell of a good song. I do search it out because it is catchy and good, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything she does. It doesn't mean that I don't think sometimes these videos are over the top in ways that aren't helpful. I'm not going to make it illegal, but I don't also don't want my kids watching it all the time. I don't really want to have my kids watching Lil Nas X give Satan a lap dance. No, that's not like at the top of my list of things I want them taking in right. But we have to be able to calibrate that. I think we have to say-- Even way back in the day with Like A Prayer, which seems so sweet these days. But isn't there something there where something that used to be shocking doesn't get our attention anymore? Like, what's next if eventually even a reference to Satan won't get anyone's attention, which I think it barely did, then what are we going to do next to shock, if that's a part of pop culture, if that's a part of this progression?  

[00:30:47] I think it's worth asking do we like where this is headed? Do we want to keep going in this direction? Not because I think we should shame these artists or bleep the word devil, because I think that's dumb. But I'm willing to engage with people and say, "Hey, I get that you're concerned about what your kids are taking in. We're all concerned about the safety of our kids." It is scary to see these stories about trusted figures who were sexually abusing kids while their parents were in the room. That's terrifying. But I don't think channeling all that into QAnon or Comet Pizza is the way to go. Let's talk about that because what people do not want to hear is I can't promise you that we will prevent this forever in the future. What they want to hear is, yeah, if we get the right person we'll shut this down. Be it Doja Cat, be it whoever is in charge of the Democratic Party. You know what I'm saying? They don't want to hear that. They don't want to hear like, no, there's no way to assure that nothing bad or harmful will ever happen to your kids in a 1980s daycare all the way through to a gymnastics doctor's office. I just think that acknowledging people's fear without promising something you can't promise is really hard.  

Beth [00:31:57] I don't know the answers to any of these questions with the Internet. I don't know how you continue to be shocking with the Internet. It feels to me like we've run out of ways to be shocking, but perhaps not. Perhaps I'm just not creative enough to imagine.  

Sarah [00:32:12] You shouldn't have said that out loud.  

Beth [00:32:14] The next version, you're right. And I don't know. As a parent, we were just having this conversation with friends over dinner last night. To what extent do you try to prevent your kids from hearing, seeing, saying offensive things versus trying to walk them through how to engage with those things in the world? For the most part, that's the choice that Chad and I make. We don't strongly restrict the kinds of movies our girls watch or the kind of music that they listen to. We took them to a Lizzo concert, you know what I mean? We are very free with what they engage with because we try to engage with them and then talk it over. Well, hey, that peace of that word here as lazy, that's rude. This was not a good movie. That was like too much violence for no reason. It didn't even advance the story. You know what I mean? We try to teach them to just think about what they've seen and what it means to them. And where sexual things come up, we just try to use that as an opportunity to do some education. Do you think those were good choices? That seems like not a great choice to me. How did it make you feel? We try to just deal with all of it, not serve them up deliberately with things that are not age appropriate, but we are much less protective than other parents. And for me, that is just because of the Internet. I just feel like I get a limited period of time with them and there is such a barrage now. The best I can do is say, "Let's talk about how you interact with this stuff because you're going to interact with all manner of things. Again, things that I cannot even imagine yet that are to provoke you, to shock you, to frighten you. So let's just work on the you that handles that instead of trying to screen what comes to you."  

Sarah [00:34:04] Yeah, it's hard. I had one of my boys walk out of Five Nights at Freddy's. He found it too scary. We didn't go. I thought it's PG 13. Surely it's okay. That's not usually my choice. I edge more towards protective because I do think media is very powerful. And so we only started watching live action movies like a couple of years ago. We were like a cartoon only family because you watch a couple of eighties movies and you're like, "Lord in heaven, why were they letting us watch this in elementary school?" And so I really do try to kind of watch it. And really what I paid attention to is not sex or cussing or drug and alcohol use. Really what I'm paying attention to a lot with media is just the intensity of what is in the storyline, because I just see that my kids don't have the capacity to handle a lot of that intensity right now, and I don't want them to. I'm not trying to teach them to handle stuff that they don't need to be able to handle right now. But it's such a hard line to walk.  I don't censor music. I don't censor books. I have some stuff that I'm like, whatever. But visually, I think because I was such a visual kid, I do think a lot about that. But it's really hard. It's really hard because they're taking in so much media. And like you said, are we protecting them? Are we teaching them? I think the satanic panic comes up because people are trying to protect. When you are bleeping the word devil, there is a misplaced emphasis on protection. I can say that. Because it's like, what do you think they hear at school? Like, is there any other word they don't hear? I don't understand. But call me a fuddy-duddy. I don't mind that they bleep the word bitch. I cuss a lot, but I don't necessarily want to hear that word all the time, everywhere I go. I even struggled with some of the cussing in Ted Lasso. I'm like, this is just a sitcom man. Can we just have a sitcom without the F word? And I use it prolifically in my own life. And so I can't even explain to you why sometimes I'm like, was that necessary?  

Beth [00:36:04] You know what, that relates to me with your comment about the intensity. As you were saying that my kids opt out as soon as the intensity gets to be too much for them. They will walk away from something if they're not enjoying and they will sometimes say like, oh, too much cussing in this song, that's silly. You know what I mean? And I felt the same way sometimes about Ted Lasso. Just too much. What's the point of this? I always felt like Schitt's Creek got it about right. It wasn't prudish in any way, but the spirit of it always stayed pretty light. It didn't get too heavy handed in any particular dimension. And I get that we each just have a different barometer for that stuff. And I think that's fine. I think when you have someone leaning into the satanist side, when you have a political movement leaning into, hey, Wayfair is probably storing kids in it's furniture boxes, when you see people who are trying to dial it all the way up to take that intensity-- I think that's a great a great framing that you have-- to take that intensity all the way up, I feel like my kids naturally reject that stuff and that feels good to me. And I try to be a person who naturally rejects it too, and practices rejecting it.  

Sarah [00:37:19] Well, and it's just we have an intense media environment, right? That's why I listen to the radio quietly some day just so that I don't have to decide.  

Beth [00:37:26] I think this is related to at least one reported article a week about Americans not engaging with news anymore.  

Sarah [00:37:34] Yeah.  

Beth [00:37:35] The intensity from news and politics is too high and people don't want it and they're rejecting it. And that is extremely consequential for a pluralistic democracy trying to continue to function. But I get it because I turn on a podcast sometimes, or certainly the news on television and think, no, I don't want that.  

Sarah [00:37:57] Well, and that's an important moment as we wrap up this conversation about satanic panic that sometimes comes with a wink and a nod, depending on which side you're talking about, to say, that's why we chose this conversation today. Because it is intense out there and we cannot swim in the intensity 24/7. And that doesn't mean some people aren't forced to. Of course, they are. Of course, they are. But their suffering is not reduced one iota by me saying I must try to coexist with their suffering 24 hours a day. Because I think it reduces our ability to call people to the table when it matters. If we don't take a time out, if we don't give a break, if we don't acknowledge, hey, we can't all do this all day, every day, then when we need people's attention, we don't have it. I've been quoting my husband a lot recently because we were talking about an online writer who we both have a lot of respect for, but the turn that writing has taken is just a lot of intensity all the time. And he said, "Everything can't be about everything." And I thought, that's it. When everything is about everything, everything is about nothing. And that's when I try to walk that balance with our coverage here.  

Beth [00:39:09] And the other piece for me of taking a second to talk about your beliefs about the world and death, I just think there's a current happening right now where people are way, way into Halloween. And that just doesn't surprise me on the other side of COVID where mortality is in your face. And it doesn't surprise me when there are at least two wars that dominate our news coverage. When everything is about everything, or when you set your sights only on the gigantic, on only on the global, you lose people because even the most privileged among us are in the midst of everyday grief and everyday confrontation of their own mortality and everyday meaning making about the world. And I think just remembering that every person is ultimately a candle on that table, navigating their own stuff is helpful.  

[00:40:10] Music Interlude  

Sarah [00:40:28] Well, that's a good transition to Outside of Politics where we are going to talk about Halloween.  

Beth [00:40:33] Happy Halloween, Sarah.  

Sarah [00:40:34] Beth, Happy Halloween.  

Beth [00:40:35] It's a fun one.  

Sarah [00:40:36] I love Halloween. I've always loved Halloween. I was thinking about the Halloween of my childhood before we had the Internet, before you had endless DIY options, before you could Amazon any sort of branded costume you wanted. And some of my more hilarious childhood Halloween costumes one year-- I'm going to put this picture on Instagram because I think you'll enjoy it. One year I dressed up as a rich lady. I was rich for Halloween. [Crosstalk] I wore a little fur. And then one year I was a hobo. I was really playing with issues of class as an elementary school kid on Halloween. Let me tell you that.  

Beth [00:41:10] We have pictures of me as a hobo as well, singing at a talent show with a friend.  

Sarah [00:41:14] Hobo was popular.  

Beth [00:41:17] Yeah. Halloween is much more of an adult celebration for me than when I was a kid because I lived in a really rural area. And trick or treating is a whole different scene when you get in your car and go to like four or five houses. But I do have memories of the costumes that my mom made for me. My mom was a very gifted sewer and she made some incredibly beautiful things for me as a kid. I can get choked up really fast thinking about my mom's hands and the way that she used them and her creativity and her time to give me all these gifts that I wouldn't have had access to otherwise because of money and because of the Internet and just availability and where we lived. And it makes me smile to think about what she did for me, to give me these pretty fantastic costumes for my four or five house trick or treating during Halloween.  

Sarah [00:42:07] Oh, yeah. Lisa shining moment. She threw her back out and she moved her sewing machine into our kitchen and stood up at the kitchen counter and made me the most beautiful Scarlett O'Hara costume. Now, I will not be sharing that picture online because Gone with the Wind is deeply problematic. But this was the eighties and I was obsessed with it. She took hula hoops apart and put together like a big old giant hoop skirt. I thought I was the queen of everything in that costume.  

Beth [00:42:38] And it is kind of a relief to me that I can just order a costume for my kids. But also there are moments when I think, man, I wish we were problem solving this a little bit more. There were some good lessons in trying to put our Halloween costume together. We did get to do that here this morning. Ellen School does a Book Character Day for Halloween, and she has just a very generic detective costume this year. The truth is she found a headband that she liked and designed the rest of her look around the headband, but she couldn't fit it into book character to her satisfaction. So this morning I just said, "Hey, what characters in books do you really like? You just name like a character that you love from a book. Who is it?" And she said, "Charlotte from Charlotte's Web." And so we are very quickly, last minute DIYing a spider, which is fun. It's been great. It doesn't feel pressured. It doesn't feel expensive. I'm not running around buying things today. So we're getting a little bit of that quaint our Halloween of my childhood with book character name.  

Sarah [00:43:41] Well, it's so funny you say that because Griffin, he's participating in our family costume, but him and his friends are then changing into this costume to match this Internet video. Please don't ask me about it. I don't understand it or recognize it. But he's been so into making this costume, they order matching capes. He spent all last night making his mask and putting the lights where they want to go because he likes this part. He likes to pick obscure Internet videos or memes. It's like you can't just pop on Amazon and order that costume. You have to like sort of make it and match it. And then there would be like two or three people out on Halloween who will recognize who he is. And he loves it. And I think it's so fun. I mean, that's the best part of Halloween, is being able to craft a costume or an identity that you haven't tried on but that you love, that maybe some people will recognize or maybe they don't. I mean, I feel like you're doing Halloween right if not everybody recognizes who you are. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the fun part. And it's been so fun to watch him. He spent all last night putting this together, figuring out how to make the mask work and how he could see. And when he came out and it was all together, he's like, doesn't it look great? He was so excited. That's really fun to see in a high school freshman.  

Beth [00:44:47] That is fun. I love that. I can't wait to see pictures of both of his looks.  

Sarah [00:44:52] You won't recognize it, but I will share that with you.  

Beth [00:44:55] It's fine, I don't need to recognize it.  

Sarah [00:44:55] You'll be like, who that? I'll be like, I don't know. But he's so excited.  

Beth [00:44:58] I'm sure that it's a credit to him that an old lady like me will not recognize his costume, right?  

Sarah [00:45:03] Right. Exactly. As he has repeatedly informed me, Ahmed, which I find very insulting. But that is a different Outside of Politics. So, yeah, we are all getting dressed up. We're so excited. We have a Halloween parade in my neighborhood. I have a neighbor who always hosts like lots of food and dinner. It is really one of my most favorite nights of the year. And best part, it just got really cold, Beth, it's like 48 degrees. That's my peak temp out there on Halloween tonight.  

Beth [00:45:31] Good for you not for me. I'm not thrilled about being quite so cold, but it'll be fun.  

Sarah [00:45:37] I mean, when it's 80s, it's so gross. When it is hot Halloween, I got a mosquito bite on Halloween one year, and I was mad the rest of the year.  

Beth [00:45:44] I hear you. I just think that a good 60/55 would be fine.  

Sarah [00:45:48] No, that's too hot. No, it's got to be cold. Remember those Halloweens of your childhood where you were like freezing your butt off the whole time? It's like it's the vibe.  

Beth [00:45:57] I don't love that feeling. It's just not for me. But we are going to have a fire out, which will be nice.  

Sarah [00:46:03] That's a good idea. We should too.  

Beth [00:46:04] And we will be wrapped up in. We're going to grill hot dogs. That was Elise's idea to grill hot dogs for passing by trick or treaters.  

Sarah [00:46:11] Our audience came through with the no candy ideas. Like just so many, so many good ideas.  

Beth [00:46:19] And our neighbors are going to make their very special scone recipe. So we're going to have hot dog and scones. And then I do have some candy and I have some popcorn. So we just have a variety. People can like choose their Halloween adventure with us, and I think it'll be fun.  

Sarah [00:46:31]  Oh, yeah, I definitely have candy. Don't get it backwards. I have candy. I'm trying to save enough money and work on my husband's heart so that one year I can be the full size candy house.  

Beth [00:46:41] I know.  

Sarah [00:46:43] It's my dream. It's just my dream, Beth.  

Beth [00:46:45] I share this dream, but I do not have faith in my husband being on board with the full sized candy at any point in time, and I understand why.  

Sarah [00:46:54] Don't they want to be heroes. Don't we raise men to want to be heroes? I thought that was the whole point of patriarchy.  

Beth [00:47:02] We have two very heroic guys in other ways, and if this is their downfall, I will accept it for sure.  

Sarah [00:47:09] Not me. I might keep chipping away at it. One year I'm going to do it. I'm going to be the house that's going to have the full...  

Beth [00:47:15] You just become legendary when you pass out the full size.  

Sarah [00:47:19] Legends. You're legends. Legends. That's what I want. That's what everybody deserves on Halloween. That's all I'm saying.  

Beth [00:47:26] Happy Halloween.  

Sarah [00:47:27] Well, happy Halloween, everybody.  

Beth [00:47:29] I hope everybody enjoys it.  

Sarah [00:47:30] We hope that you have the best spookiest Halloween available to you. We will be back in your ears on Friday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

[00:47:41] Music Interlude 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement.

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family.

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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