Dr. Becky Has A Lot to Say About Politics
Dr. Becky may be your favorite Instagram parenting expert, but this conversation is about so much more than parenting. We talked to Dr. Becky about human connection, communication, civic engagement, and the effects of being parented - something every one of us has experienced on some level or another. We promise this is a conversation you absolutely don't want to miss.
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EPISODE RESOURCES
Good Inside (Dr. Becky’s Website)
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. We have a special episode of Pantsuit Politics for you today. We are sharing our conversation with Dr. Becky Kennedy, a clinical psychologist who shot to fame on Instagram during the Covid-19 pandemic and now leads an online community of several thousand and has a new book out called Good Inside. And we are so thrilled to have her on our show today.
Beth [00:00:47] We want to make sure to say that author Dr. Becky's expertise is around parenting. This is not an episode that is just for parents. Dr. Becky has something to say about politics here. As you'll hear, this conversation is about human connection and communication, and about how we were raised, and our choices to break cycles and patterns that have been ingrained in us. So everybody doesn't have kids, but everybody was a kid, and our childhoods seriously impact our civic life. And we are so delighted that Dr. Becky is here to talk about that with us.
Sarah [00:01:18] Now, before we get to Dr. Becky, we are currently on the road in Oklahoma City and are so thrilled to be out again speaking at college campuses and organizations. And the conversations we have with all of you and we're in-person doing workshops and Q&A are unlike any we have anywhere else.
Beth [00:01:35] So if you'd like to bring us to your campus or organization or business, just check out our show notes. We'll have links to the events page on our website or you can email Alise at Hello@Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. We only have seven spots left for 2023 and we would love to come see you.
Sarah [00:01:52] Up next, our conversation with Dr. Becky Kennedy.
Beth [00:02:05] We are thrilled to be joined by Dr. Becky Kennedy today. Dr. Becky, welcome to Pantsu Politics.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:02:11] So happy to be here. Thank you.
Beth [00:02:13] We have a lot that we would like to talk with you about because we love your book Good Inside. And I just want to start with the fundamental premise, because your whole book is based on the idea that we are all actually good, that we are good people having feelings that are allowed and experiences that are challenging. And I know this book is not about politics, but that premise says so much about how we orient ourselves in the world. So can you tell us how you decided this would be your foundation? Because there's a worldview represented in people's politics that says we are not good inside and people can't be trusted because they are racist or because they are selfish and greedy or they are immoral. So I would just love to hear how you decided this would be your foundation.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:02:54] I love so much that you're linking that, and I really do think this book is about humans and human relationships, period. And actually just remembering that our kids are human, it sounds obvious, but we're really taught this model of raising kids that's very disrespectful of kids, as if kids don't have thoughts and feelings and things that are very real in them. And often looking at their struggles through the lens of like, "What is wrong with my child? They're so bad." And so we're given this approach, this behavior first approach that's really behavior modification or behavior shaping as our model for raising children as if I can just shape them and mold them. And at the end of the day-- I'm sure the two of you think about this in other contexts-- but I think control and trust are opposites. And I think in all of our relationships, it's really powerful to think about that.
Sarah [00:03:52] I'm going to need a moment with. I'm going to need a moment with control and trust as opposites. Everybody just take a breath and breathe through that because I just had a moment. That is good. That is very good.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:04:03] We only control someone we don't trust. And we don't only don't trust someone because we believe there's an inherent badness or the absence of goodness. And so good inside it's so simple. It's like nobody ever says, like, well, treat your child this way because they're bad inside. If everyone explicitly said that we'd be like, well, that sounds really harsh. But it's kind of radical. I think it's very radical to develop an approach for helping raise kids. That starts with the assumption of goodness. And then people do this thing a lot. They're like, oh, so they're good inside, so it's okay that they hit their brother? Of course not. We don't have to collapse identity into behavior. I think that's collapsed all the time for people, for adults, for kids. No, actually, because I know my kid is good inside and hitting their brother, now I can be curious about why. Now I can embody my own authority with boundaries. But because I know they're good inside, I can ask myself instead of what is wrong with my kid, I can say, what skills does my child need to change this behavior? What are they missing? What are they struggling with? And the questions we ask determine the interventions we use. And so I think the idea of good inside allows us to just start really asking different questions about our kids.
Sarah [00:05:21] Well, as I was reading the book, I thought, in some ways, it felt like you were embracing this idea that sort of fallen out of favor that children are not little adults. Children are not little adults. They're different. But it's almost like you were saying, no, we are the same, but you're flipping it. You're saying they're not like adults, we're like them. We are like them. We are struggling with the same things they're struggling with. We are the same. We are the same. Trying to delineate-- like you said, this book is about humans. They're humans and we're humans and we're struggling with the same thing, we just express them differently.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:05:56] Yes. And I think a great example of this, it's parents more than anything else they're, like, "My kid doesn't listen to me." And then we go into my kids are disrespectful. My kid's never going to listen to anyone. How are they going to ever have a job? We fast forward, they're 30 years and we're just spiraling. But going back to that idea that you just said, Sarah, okay, let me think of what's happened with my kid. How can I put myself in their shoes? So let's go through this. I'm sitting on the couch, my kids are sleeping. I'm sitting on the couch, finally relaxing for the 30 seconds parents have to relax, maybe reading a book. And let's say my husband's also sitting on the couch. And he says to me, "Hey, Becky, can you go get me water?" And if I look at him and I'm like, "Oh, we're both sitting on the couch." Like, no. If he said to me, "You have a listening problem and you don't respect me, and you can't watch TV for a week." I mean, at best that's gaslighting. I'd be like, what? I just don't want to do the thing you asked me to do. And also, I would add, if during the day he was always distracted, if during the day I was trying to talk to about things and he was on his phone, if during the day I felt like he was yelling at me constantly, there's no way I'd get him that water. If during the day I felt close to him, I was like, "Hey, I want to talk to you about something." He's like, "Yeah, let me put my phone away." and he really listens, and I felt close to him. Guess what? When he asked me to get that water, I probably would get it for him. And so when we think about it that way, a lot of us were overwhelmed or stressed. We're yelling at our kids. We're not connecting to them. We're on our phones. We're not joining their world. And then we asked them to do something, they don't want to do. And then we label them as having a problem, and then we get into a spiral of punishment. And, yeah, I think putting ourselves in our kids shoes and just think, wait, they need the same things I need. They need to feel safe. They need to feel respected. They don't need to get everything they want. No way. They need to feel real and seen. And they need that safety. And maybe if I treat them a little bit more from that approach, maybe a lot of things in our house are going to start being a lot more peaceful.
Sarah [00:07:59] And, again, that is universally applicable to all humans. I came to this point in your book because we both have new books and I read this passage. I'm just going to read a little bit of it. "Understanding and convincing are two diametrically opposed ways of approaching other people. So a powerful first step in any interaction is to notice which mode you're in. When you're in one thing is true mode, you're judgmental and reactive to someone else's experience because it feels like an assault on your own truth. As a result, you will seek to prove your own point of view, which in turn makes the other person defensive because they need to uphold the realness of their experience." Now, I could have read that passage, and I think most people probably would have guessed it's from our book about political conversations. And I thought, man, you could lift this paragraph and put it in books about political conversations, and books about marriage, and books about coworkers, and books about our polarized society. That encompasses so much of human interaction. I love the one thing is true versus two things can be true here.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:09:02] And the fact that I'm talking to you two is is really so rewarding because so often our team-- maybe the whole team are going to decide to do a bunch of things. The applications exactly to politics are just right there. Like, this is what happens. It's like we all get into this one thing is true mode where it's, like, I can't put my experience that I know to be true to the side to listen to your experience. It almost feels like, well, if I'm listening, I agree. We collapse these things. Well, if I'm listening and trying to understand how you feel, but it means I'm wrong. What? Why? Like, how did we get to this place? I can feel like blue is my favorite color and Beth you can feel like red is your favorite color, and I could try to understand that and it doesn't mean Red's my favorite color. Period. It means I'm trying to understand what you like about red. And I didn't even mean to choose political colors, it's because I was deep in my psyche.
Sarah [00:09:53] Purple.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:09:53] Yeah, purple and green. Whatever it is, right? You can like soccer, and I can not like soccer. Those can both be true. Neither of us is right. Neither of us is a better person. But if I want to be in a relationship with you and have any progress in any conversation, I better be able to understand and listen to why you like soccer. That's real. And I think about this big idea. I'm going to cry thinking about this.
Sarah [00:10:16] We cry a lot here. It's fine. This is a crying safe space.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:10:20] Good. We are all more attached to feeling seen than we are to holding on to any particular belief we have. The only reason we get so rigid in a belief-- any belief, even if it starts to work against us-- is because we don't feel seen for feeling like a good person with that belief. I mean, it is just insane. This has just happened and polarized, and poralized and now people are defending their specific beliefs to the grave because it's their way of saying, like, I'm a good person because no one on the other side will see that I'm a good person with this belief. So now the belief is more important than anything else. Then we have this nation that cannot communicate with each other and is getting more and more rigid to the detriment of even both parties. Like, to themselves, nobody is winning here. Nobody is winning.
Beth [00:11:12] When you gave that couch example, I was thinking, I wouldn't get mad at my partner for asking for a glass of water while I'm on the couch because we're in a generally good time in our marriage. There are probably times when I would have, and I certainly can translate that to like coworkers that you have toxicity with. You would get mad about the water question. You would say, "How do they not know I'm finally relaxing?" and you would definitely say, like, how dare a Democrat ask me for a glass of water while I'm relaxing? I mean, we definitely collapse that identity and behavior. I think that's so helpful to think about the fact that we're almost starting with our kids the way we would start with the most toxic people and relationships in our lives. And that leads us to behave in a really disconnecting way. And then some of us go to the other extreme. So I loved your introduction to Chapter 10, where you write that you don't want your kids to look back when they're older and see you as someone who was completely self-sacrificing. That really flips the definition of virtuous motherhood that we have absorbed from political messaging, some of us from religious messaging, certainly from social conditioning and cultural conditioning. And I would love to hear you talk about that in a little bit more detail.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:12:24] Oh, my god. This is like my favorite thing to talk about.
Sarah [00:12:30] It reminds me of that moment in the Disney guidebook, and they had this little section where it's like, oh, and by the way, this is how to discipline children. It's kind of funny. And it's like in your book, it's like, oh, by the way, can we talk about the patriarchy in these couple pages just real fast?
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:12:45] Yeah. It always goes back to that. My team-- I've done a lot of these book interviews-- and they're like, "Can you just like stop talking about the patriarchy? Just talk about your book. Just mention the book. Just mention it once." So I'm going to say book and now we can talk about the important things. Yeah. So the definition of being a good woman is being a person without any access to their own desire.
Sarah [00:13:08] Oh, my god.
[00:13:09] Period. Forget even speaking up based on desire. It's like not even having access. The further away that is, the more we fit in to this female and definitely mother role. Martyrdom is the model for good motherhood. And it's bananas. It's bananas for so many reasons. I mean, it's bananas because we can never (as a gender, as a person), feel confident, feel empowered if we don't have access to the very thing that makes us feel like an alive human person, which is our desire and our wants and our needs. Now, for our kids, there is nothing that terrifies me as much as a selfless mother. Like, that literally gives me the heebie-jeebies. Like, as a mother or father, as a parent, you are the leader. You are the pilot of your plane. Think about being on a plane. And like we know, planes have turbulence. Guess what? Families and kids are a lot of turbulence. Think about being on a turbulent plane and basically having a pilot's say this, "It is really turbulent. I'm going to open the cockpit door. Does anyone there know how to deal with this? Because I don't really know what I want or what I need or what to do in this situation." If you're like me, you're not even scared of the turbulence, you're just terrified that you have a pilot who can't take you through with groundedness the difficult air that you're going through." And kids feel selflessness. Kids feel the fact that their parents can't locate themselves. And then it leads to kids-- they fear themselves because they must watch themselves take over. Like, wow, I could overcome the cockpit and take over the pilot's seat. I'm only five, like, why am I making this decisions?
Sarah [00:14:51] Chaotic, man.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:14:53] Chaotic. Right? One of the things for kids I often think about is our kids can only learn to tolerate in themselves what their parents can tolerate in them. Our kids can never learn to tolerate and experience an emotion that their parents can't tolerate in them. Guess what happens in all relationships, you don't get all your needs met. We know this as adults. It's still hard, but we don't and we have to learn to cope with that and realize, okay, there's still something in me and I can get through this. This is what happened before. I'm traveling now for my book tour as I talk to you, and my almost 11-year-old said something really profound the night before, he said, "I liked it a lot better when you work two days a week." All this traveling you're doing... And here's the thing. Of course, he feels that way, right? But one of the things I know-- and I don't need his approval for this-- is this movement, these conversations, they light me up inside. They give me purpose. They make me have a feeling of impact. They make me excited. Those feelings matter in my body. I actually think they make me a better parent because I'm not drowning in emptiness and then trying to fulfill myself through the perfection of my kids. But also separate from that, I just feel like I'm a person who deserves to have purpose and excited feelings. And it's so important for me to own that, for myself, not to need that approval for my kid so I can even just be there. Of course, they want that. I get it. You're going to miss me. I'm going to miss you, too. And I know we're going to get through this. And the selflessness that mothers have been fed for generations is one where we feel like we can fill ourselves up by pouring ourselves out. If I just keep pouring myself out over and over and over, that's how I'll fulfill myself. Like, the math just doesn't work and it's time for us to collectively change this.
Beth [00:16:45] Can I just say that it feels really affirming to hear you say this exact example? Because last night I said to my 11-year-old, who did not want me to go to a concert, "Your feelings are important to me and they're not in charge of my schedule." And it was hard. It was very, very hard. But I think you're right. When she is a mom, I want her to go to the concert, not to be beholden to her 11-year-old. So that is always kind of my guiding light.
Sarah [00:17:11] And it's a trap for what we really want, which is this connected relationship with our kids. I cannot stop thinking about that Atlantic piece about family estrangement. I don't know if you saw it, but it was really good. It was just talking about our expectations of families have changed. There used to be mutual responsibility, mutual obligation. And now there's this mutual fulfillment and this idea that, like, we will make each other happy. We are responsible for each other's happiness in this. Again, it's like this thing that we want so desperately for our kids to be happy, to be connected to them. The story we're told about how to get there is a dang trap because then if they're not happy, they blame you. If they're not happy in adulthood they think, well, you're the one that was supposed to be making me happy this whole time and I'm not happy, so you must be responsible. Or they feel weirdly responsible for our own happiness because what we told them is you are the source of my happiness, which is too much dang pressure for a child or an adult. And it's like it's not just like it's a personal failing. It's this cultural message we're told, it's a trap. We're not even getting what we want, what we so desperately want, from making all these sacrifices.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:18:19] Exactly. And then I think what happens is so many women as moms you have this narrative of give, give, give, and it's just about caretaking of others. And, of course, you have emptiness. And any need or want, of course, they're all still there in our body. And then every once in a while they scream out and you have these moments of mom rage. And then women go into, like, what's wrong with me? I messed up my kids forever. I'm a monster. I'm a horrible person. Versus, wait, maybe that's my body screaming out that I haven't eaten in a long time. Basically, I'm so starving. I'm starving. And it doesn't make it okay that I wait to the point that I'm starving, that I yell at someone. But the answer isn't I'm a bad parent. The answers is, wow, I have needs that that are beyond taking care of others that matter. My wants are there. They're trying to get my attention. I'm not a bad parent. I'm a good parent and needs to pay attention to my wants and needs earlier. And that matters. And I think as soon as women shift from what is wrong with me to what resources and support do I deserve and how can I go get them? I think that's going to be like a major world change.
Beth [00:19:47] How do you suggest to-- what I'm guessing is your primarily female audience on Instagram and for this book, that they engage male partners in the process of like reading the parenting books or getting some information about parenting?
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:20:03] Yes. And I think some of the things we've already talked about here come together there. So a lot of times it is often women will say, "Hey, could you meet with me and my husband? Could you, like, do the thing you do and like convince them that this is the right way and I need them to do more?" And again, I'm like, no, I actually don't do that. And number one, the convincing is just never effective. If you want me to make your partner more distant, I will do that. But that's what will happen, right? So I actually think there's like a big paradox here when you want someone to kind of get on board. The paradox is you have to start with actually understanding what's going on for them first, because when they feel connected to you and when they feel from you, like, you see them as a good person who's not doing something which is still true, right? Then they're going to become much more flexible. So I think even this book, we have this way of approaching people, especially in parenting, because of course we're so frustrated. That that just widens the gap. Hey, you know, I got this book, I'm doing all this work. You do nothing. Like, look, you're not only here to have your other job and we had these kids together. I can say those words because they've come out of my mouth [Inaudible]. So all the other person hears is, you're a bad person, you're a horrible human being, and then their energy has to go to defending that, right? So they're like, well, you don't you don't make money. Someone has to make money around here. Or something like that.
[00:21:19] How did we get here? I'm just trying to get you to read a book. Like, what happened? So I think the start is number one going from criticizing to the sentence structure, which is so hard for women, because, again, we've learned to distance ourselves from our wants and needs. But the sentence structure is, I want and I need or I feel and I need. Like, I feel overwhelmed having a lot of the parenting stuff on me. I know we're both really busy. I know we actually both want the same things for our kids. I know we want that. We want them to grow up and be happy, confident, self-assured, self trusting human beings. And I also know that I need your help in that process. And one of the things I thought we could do is like read a book together. The truth is, I'm going to like some things in the book and you're not. You're going to like some things in the book, and I'm not. But now at least we have a reference, like, a third thing to just use to have a conversation. And it's not a way of saying you're a bad parent, it's not a way of saying you're doing anything wrong. It's actually just a way of saying, we're actually really on the same team. Let's do this together. What do you think we have that book club? Like, most human beings, they're going to hear that and they're going to be like, oh, you want me involved. You want me on your team. It's such a different approach and it's so much more effective.
Sarah [00:22:36] Well, what do you say to the people who are single parents or have a lack of resources who say, I don't even have the bandwidth to get started?
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:22:45] So, number one, I'd say you are a warrior. I am a married parent and I have a partner who's very involved and parenting is so overwhelming to me. So I would say two different things. So, number one, I think as humans, we just have to start recognizing am I in survival mode or am I in skill building mode in my life? Because when we're in survival mode, chastising ourselves for not being of skill building mode, first of all, just makes the survival mode last longer because now we're adding shame and guilt, which is really hard to cope with. And when you're in survival mode, we need survival mode strategies, right? So finding a moment in a day, one, to put your feet on the ground and place your hand on your heart and say, like, "I'm a good parent who's feeling very overwhelmed." Like, those are the type of strategies we need. Like figuring out what friend you have who could just text you something at 5 p.m. when you're a single parent doing bathtime every night, that's like, "Hey, I know this is a hard time. You're doing a great job. I'm thinking about you." Like, I'm probably not during those phases like taking a workshop and that doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me a person who has very limited energy and resources and using them wisely and trying not to add on guilt and shame to my already limited resources. So I think just recognizing that is huge. Now, there's a second thing which you didn't say this exactly, Sarah, but what some parents say to me, it was like, "I don't have the time for this." It takes time to read a book or it takes the time to proactively talk to your kid about their feelings, yes. The thing about time I think is interesting. I've worked with so many families who say this. And what I'll say to them is, "You spend a lot of time in power struggles with your kids, but you even spend a lot of time spiraling, feeling like a bad parent." You told me it literally wakes you up at night. Like, you literally can't sleep. That is time. And sometimes you think it's just a matter of like how we spend our time. We spend our time learning things that make us feel empowered or we spend our time feeling shitty about ourselves. And that bucket is really common and really known for a lot of us because often we didn't get what we needed, and so we spent that time earlier. And I think that's just a powerful way to think about it, that it's not like that takes time. It's just like what bucket of time am I entering into.
Beth [00:24:59] I like how you address this book to people as cycle breakers. I think that is one of the most political ideas in the book too, that you can move out of unconsciously behaving from all the stuff that you have absorbed in your life to consciously looking at that stuff and saying I want to choose differently now, or I want to choose to integrate that stuff in this way. It is very hard to break a cycle in a culture that perpetuates cycles, so I would just love to hear how you address that in your practice and how you think about the political implications of cycle breaking.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:25:36] I mean, cycle breakers to me is anybody who's saying, like kind of the generations before me did things in a certain way and like I have chills. Like I'm the one who's like looking at all of that lineage and at least to some degree, putting my hand up and saying like, no, like this stops with me. And the reason being the cycle breakers so challenging is because if you really think about the imagery of that, you're not just putting a hand up to like the way your parents did things who sure were doing the best they could, even if it wasn't, good enough for you. You're putting your hand up to like, generations. There's like a real weight to that. And you're actually a pivot point for all the generations to come. Like, I'm the first person in my family who recognizes my kid's feelings. That doesn't mean I give in to them. People always claps them. It means, no, I'm not saying sure then we'll get the toy. It just means when they're crying in the toy store. I'm saying it's really hard to see toys and look at them like I'm actually going to say that like no one else would say that to my family. Well, that's epic. That is like epic. That is so hard. And so number one, I would say, if you're listening, you're in that role, just give yourself a moment to really acknowledge, like, the fact that like all the generations after you, like, you'll be the one like all they all write you thank you notes . I was like, wow, like you did a lot for us. You did so much for us. And I think that one of the tricky things about being a cycle breaker is we know in our brain what we want to do. But our body beats our brain every time. And like every time, every time we feel before we think as animals, we do.
[00:27:15] It's actually what makes us survive. Like if you were walking toward oncoming traffic and you were like, I think I'm safe and you were walking, your body would put you back on the curb. Like, thank goodness our body acts first. And so being a cycle breaker, we have to actually think about what our body has learned in terms of circuitry, what were early experiences, and how can I actually start to give myself what I always needed and never got. Cycle breaking actually starts by changing the way you treat yourself, not changing the way you treat your kids. You have to start by rewiring what's inside. And then that's how we give something different. And if I think about the political implications of that, I mean, it's just massive. Like, we grow up in this family home and we internalize it as the truth. Our parents beliefs. The way our parents talk about things. And we have to because that's the environment we have to survive as a kids, you have to, like, figure out how to align yourself. And yet, like, I do think a big part of becoming an adult is like, wait a second, I wasn't born with that belief. Whatever the belief is, I was not born with any political beliefs when I was a baby. I'm pretty sure that's true. No babies are coming out l looking, to take stances on certain things. So becoming an adult was like, wait, all these voices in my head politically probably weren't mine to begin with. How if I put them a little bit outside me, like, what do I think? What do I think? Like do I maybe I'm aligned with some of them, maybe not? And that not only I think it's, how so many things politically could change, but that's how we like live lives that are, like consistent with our values. Rather than this kind of constant, almost like regurgitation of something that wasn't ours in the first place.
Sarah [00:28:57] Well, I know so many of our listeners, though, are going to be dealing with that cycle breaking while the people who perpetuated the cycles are still in their lives. And so how do you hold that? How do you hold that good inside? We talk a lot about this in our book, these different expectations across generations. I think you see a ton of this with COVID, where there were power shifts, where there were these undercurrents of control. You're an adult child and now you're trying to control me and you're trying to break that cycle of we don't control each other, we trust each other, but they're still in that. So how do you hold that there? Your parents or your siblings who maybe chose a different path are still in that cycle, but also still good inside.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:29:38] Yes. So a couple things. I think number one is we have to really think about our relationship with our family as we get older and how much space there is for divergence, like how much space there is for differentiation. And that doesn't mean if there's not space you cut off, I mean, you might do that. But just like to take a take a survey, how much do let's say my parents how much do my siblings tolerate the fact that I'm different from them? And I think, again, in certain family systems, we've learned early on to internalize difference as fault and danger, because early on we might have been different. We got punished or we got yelled out, we got derision, we got mockery. We get these things that like, I'm just joking. Like, that's not joking. You have a joking tone to try to, get away from the fact that you're being extremely aggressive to me and like, I won't take that. So, like, we have to just take an inventory. How much tolerance is there for difference? And I think that also gives us clues to like how much space we need to protect ourselves. Because what can happen, like if everyone visualizes themselves in a tennis court and guard one one baseline and let's say it's your parents and the other baseline. What happens is are their opinions leaves their side of the court and someone comes to our side and like comes into our body is our fault for our wrongdoing as opposed to going back to a two things are true perspective weight. My parents I can't even say my parents are good inside with political beliefs that I don't agree with.
[00:31:09] And I'm I have to figure out how to navigate that. But let me walk for the times when I'm with them where their beliefs seem to like come out of their body and somehow come into my body as something's wrong with me and I'm stupid or something's wrong with me and I don't get it, or something's wrong with me and I have to change my opinion and what we have to really do in that situation. You can see me visually. No one listening can be like, I'm putting my hands up like right around my chest and I'm pushing out. Like I actually find that useful, like with families and thing like, whoa, whoa, I'm giving that back to you. That's your belief. That is your belief on your side of the tennis court. You believe these things? I can believe different things. And actually, if you continue to act in a way where you can't hold your beliefs on your side and my beliefs on my side, it's going to be really, really hard to get together because it feels like my my very being is under attack like you can't go back to the two things are true perspective. It's really hard to be in relationships with people, close relationships where people can't hold the strength of their belief and the strength of someone else's beliefs, both as different, but both as real. Because then we feel eviscerated. We don't feel real to that person. We're an object in their life. They're just trying to convince us they actually don't want to know us. They don't want to know us. And that's sad. That's sad. And there's real loss. I think that's not talked about. Even if your parents are alive, the real grief to be like, well, some some people really do have parents who watch their kids get older and differentiate and maybe they struggle, but then they do get to a place of, hey, we're different. And I kind of accept that. And if I don't, I don't get another set of parents and even from adult and tell myself I don't need them, like I just need to give to my body. That's like, that's hard. That's probably can be hard to the end of time. It is.
Beth [00:32:48] Well, that makes me think about how much you write about repair. And I love your writing about repair. And I love remembering that repair happens following that rupture, where we can't hold both perspectives. We can't deal with the tennis court as it is. I wonder what you think repair requires, especially if we talk about repair beyond to people and think about it in a much broader context.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:33:13] It's such a beautiful question. I think the thing that repair it just to define it for everyone, what is repair? I think it's going back to a person or group or whatever it is and kind of adding human elements that were missing in the first place. So things feel bad because there's judgment, things feel bad because there's a kind of maybe verbal assault on someone. Things feel bad because we're in convincing mode. Things are bad because they're screaming and words they don't want to say. And what elements are missing? There were connection leading with curiosity. I think curiosity and judgment are also two opposites to think about. So leading with curiosity, you can never be judgmental of someone when you're curious about them. It's impossible. Because you look at a difference as something you can learn more about, not something you're trying to take them out of. And an another way, just repair is a way of reconnecting after a moment that you weren't connected. And I think the thing repair requires, whether you're talking about me with my kid or like bigger, more sociological or political issues. Is actually requires me as the repairer to find, my goodness, under the behavior I did that I would prepare for. And this is even true. I'll start small and we can go big you to help me go big. Because then maybe that's like I'm not as used to that week. But let's say with my kid, I yell at my kid, I call them a spoiled brat. I've done both those things often. So. If I'm going to go to my child and say some version of, Hey, I'm really sorry I said those words like, yes, we're in a frustrating situation, but it's never your fault. When I say mean words, it's never your fault that I yelled and I love you. And that was scary. You were right to feel that way and I'm working on it. Some version of that. Before I do that, I have to be willing to face the truth of what I did. You can't prepare for something when people don't apologize. You seem like assholes. And I'm not saying on the surface they're not. It's not inequality. But really what's happening to them underneath is like, I can't tolerate the fact that I did that thing. And so to apologize, I have to face the fact that I did that and that would eviscerate me. And actually, that really shows a collapse, again, of behavior and identity. The difference between I did this awful thing and that means I'm a bad person versus I'm a good person who did something pretty awful. And after I repair, I want to really think about that because I want to act more in line with my own values. So how did I get there? I'm going to bring curiosity to that. So I actually think we have to repair with ourselves before we repair with others and rethink repairing with ourselves involves finding the good person under the bad behavior. I didn't mess my kid up forever, Becky. I'm in that bathroom.
[00:35:39] I didn't mess up my kid forever. That didn't define me. I'm a good mom who yelled at her son. I'm going to do some more thinking about that. Now I can face the behavioral truth because I found my safe, good identity. We need to find that. And so what does that mean in a larger way? Like when people in groups have acted in ways they're not proud of, as long as they're so invested in not facing their own reality about themselves, they will never repair, they can't repair. They're physiologically unable to repair because they're defending their goodness by avoiding that behavior that would threaten that internal goodness. And so it's like we're not repairing nothing to do with that relationship. That person or that group is a pawn in our own psychological game. So you have to be able to say, look, I've done things I'm not proud of. Yeah, and it doesn't make me a horrible devil. Yeah. It doesn't like I'm a good person. We're a good group. And so knowing that I can now go to someone or go to a group and say, hey, that probably felt really bad and that was ineffective for both of us. I think I think another thing I think about a lot is when we're in conflict with someone in the political implications of this are bananas, when we're in conflict with someone meaning like we have a difference, we approach them in two ways. The first way is I'm on one side of the table and you're on the other side of the table, and I'm looking you like you're the problem. The other way is I am on the same side of the table with you. And we are looking together, gazing in the same direction at the other side of the table at the problem. And unless you're in that second mode. Zero impactful, effective things will ever happen, ever. Because we all know when someone's looking at us like we're the problem, we feel an attack of our goodness. And then our energy has to go to defending that. And I actually think apparently one of things I say more than ever to parents is before you intervene with your kid, notice what mode they're in? Because I promise you don't even think of a strategy until you get yourself in the mode. It's not like my kid is being difficult in the morning, not getting ready. It's getting ready is really hard. I wonder how we can figure this out together. And politically the only thing that happens is the first mode. The only thin.
Sarah [00:37:54] I mean, I think one of the most helpful terms I've learned this is was in Mary Trump's book, oddly enough, but it's very helpful to me. And she describes psychic survival. And I think that's like what you're trying to get at. People are in psychic survival. Like they can not admit or be curious because that if you've been doing that for your whole life and decades and decades of compounding behavior like that is a real lift. And I think what you're advocating and what you're talking about is truly revolutionary, because I think one of the places I struggled in the book is, I think we overemphasize individuality in the United States. And I think we we put too much emphasis in this weird way on individuality and identity and not needs is I know we all like sort of ignore our needs in real ways, but consumer needs maybe like these shallow needs. And I think like this what you're calling I think what I would have called community, you're calling connection. And I think it's a brilliant word because I think what we're really trying to work out here is a new way of being. We had the tribal way of being. That didn't work.It's too much. It's our brains go under, can go into really bad places when they're in that tribal mode. And pure individuality is lonely and people need each other. And we are really forging a new path here. And I think for me, like especially in the political context, what I say all the time is we can all agree we want what's best for our kids. So it's like you hear this good inside. We're trying to forge a new path, this Venn diagram of somebody who might have a very different parenting approach from me, whether they're in my family or they're across the political aisle or whatever, like we can all agree we want what's best for our kids. And holding that in, and like finding a space for that connection across maybe just in that one single space. Like we're trying to forge a new path here. We're trying to do something that hasn't quite been done yet, especially in, the United States or even human history. This like new path of connection where we're holding the individual, we're holding that need for connection and we're trying to do it in a different way. And that's hard.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:40:16] So hard. And I think it's like we're, we always have to choose, kind of like I can be connected or I can be right, period. And the more I choose being right there is kind of you're saying this, like, kind of retreat into an individuality. But I think like that there's a paradox that like the way we really connect with others also has to come with like a connection to our good inside self. That's what allows us to see differences. That's what allows us to be curious because we don't feel like our individuality is being threatened in that moment. So it really, I think this like self and community self and connection like they're partners are really partners.
Sarah [00:40:56] And you can't find yourself. You find yourself in more deep ways through connection with other people. Like you find your difference and you find full expression of it. And I think you're so right. And I think that that moment, I mean, I was like conditioned by the end the second I read a point in your book reads, I place your hand on your heart. I don't know how to read what came next. I started crying like it was a surreal situation because it's just that moment of like, I'm here, I matter. I also matter because as this larger connection and contact of those around me helps me feel that I matter and that I have needs, and then I'm left. And you're right. It's such a paradox. And man, does it find the fullest expression in parenting?
Beth [00:41:46] Seems like there's a timeline component to all of this, too, because when you talk about connection capital versus behavior modification, you're saying take the long view. Instead of believing that if I let this one thing slide without a real harshness about it and without real consequence to it, then I'm setting them up for a parade of horribles in their lives. And this is something we talk about politically all the time. If you want to connect with other people, you cannot treat every issue like it is the only issue, the most important issue. If this one time we compromise on this one Bill, all is lost. And I think that parallel if we can practice what you're talking about in our homes, we can practice it in civic spaces so much more effectively.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:42:31] I think so. And I think it's really powerful to note, as I call this, that like fast forward thought or that like we have a moment today, we kind of have an intuition about like what would feel right or like. But then we have the fast forward thought and we're like, Wait, here's what this means 30 years and then and then we end up responding based on the fear rather than the reality inside of us, and then we perpetuate the fear. Exactly. So I have to stick to my beliefs and not compromise, because if I don't, I will never get anything that I want across the line for the next 30 years. But like, where does that fear take over our body? We let fear and honestly the least generous interpretation of someone take over. And we do this with our kids. Yes, we do this with our kids also in a microcosm, we do this with ourselves, too. It's like, okay, I did work out this morning, even though I said I want to doesn't mean I'm like, lazy and I'm like, going to be like, a horrible. Like, I just needed to sleep in today. Like, I can trust myself. It comes from a lack of trust. It comes from the idea that I need to prove a bigger thing today, that I can't trust development and time. And I think there's I'm sure the implications are broader, too, but there's a huge irony with our kids. Because parents like, so my kids said, I hate you and I'm not punishing them. And they'll say, like, because I'm following your approach. But like, my kid is going to say, I hate you now to their boss. Like they can't see that it gets we get so concrete and linear. The reason I'm not punishing my kid when they say is because there was a feeling, there was an urge underneath that my kid did not have the skill to manage. And I think we all know shame and punishment and blame have never motivated anything positive in human history. And so I am not punishing my kid when I hold a boundary. So I'm like, well, if you keep saying that I am going to walk away because I know you're mad and I care, but I also know there's other ways you can communicate with me. But I'm also going to say, you know what? Something led to that. And I care more about how you're feeling than how that feeling happened to come out of your mouth. So let's cool off and figure out what's going on because I'm on your same team. You know what that's going to do? My kid is going to learn the skill to manage the anger because I don't want my kids say, I hate you with their boss. This means when they're mad at their boss, they're going to have the regulation skill to talk to them more effectively. Of course, I know my kid can't say I hate you to their boss when they're very obviously this is the way you get there. We have to pause that moment and realize, actually, people, are you letting your kid off the hook? You want to let someone off the hook for change, add punishment and shame. They literally will never learn a skill and they'll be cast into the bad kid role. Both of things will make it impossible for them to change. If you want to leave someone on the hook for change, sure. Of course. Always set our boundaries and prioritize curiosity and connection because that is how people actually change.
Sarah [00:45:16] Well, and that's what we tell people. It's just the muscle memory. It's just doing it enough and seeing that the bottom didn't fall out and your child didn't become a maniac, or that political conversation happened again and you had another chance. Like and we just tell people, like, I cannot shortcut this for you, you just have to start doing it and realizing this feels different because it is this like weird paradox where to trust ourselves. We have to give that trust away to other people because I think on our cellular level we realize like we are all the same. And so when we that flow of trust flows out of us, it's like it builds and it doesn't feel like it will. I think there's a real scarcity mindset where our brains are in. I don't know where we're taught, where we say if we give it away, we won't get it back.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:46:02] Yes.
Sarah [00:46:03] But it's not true and it's just. But you have to do it to feel it.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:46:06] You do. And I think it goes back to that like is my fundamental belief that people are bad inside or good inside. Am I just looking at everyone like they're just waiting to take advantage of me? And then I also think like naming something even politically and I'm not I'm stepping way out of my expertize, but saying something, hey, look like this compromise I have to be on. This actually makes sense to me. I just have to say something. The thing that would make me not do it is the fear that if I compromise here, I'm not going to be able to get you to compromise. And so I just want to name that because I would hate for that to actually be the thing that gets in our way of going forward. But I want to let you know that's on my mind because I know we'll come to the table again and I will expect a little bit more generosity on your side and like I hope you feel. I hope you see it the same way again. Now we're literally like they're like politically I'm looking at this person who thinks differently as the same side of the table. Like we are both trying to solve the same thing we're both trying to make change or trying to make progress like we're on the same team. We really are. You're almost more on the same team with people who disagree with you then the people who just want to reinforce all your beliefs. Because the only way you're going to make change is by connecting with those other people. So those are your real teammates.
Sarah [00:47:12] And sometimes, look, you're not on the same team. Sometimes you might compromise. And the next time I they, sorry, we're not doing it this time. Like, but that's you still learn something, you still learn something. This isn't sometimes the I think the ways in which we interact politically or civically, like there is no connection, there is an opposition and sometimes we just have to acknowledge that and that's okay. We're not saying that doesn't exist. We're not saying we're always going to be on the same team working towards the same goal. But there's still a role for curiosity because curiosity can also serve you the next time you come to the table.
Dr. Becky Kennedy [00:47:45] Always curiosity. It always helps because even if you don't want to work with someone, being curious at least gives you more information to understand them. If you want to end up using that for other, it's still going to help you.
Sarah [00:47:57] Because you might still have to work with them whether you want to or not.
Beth [00:48:00] Well, that reminds me of the phrase that I've used 100 times, at least since I read it in your book just a few days ago. Just like sometimes we can't make it better right now, and we just have to get through it. And I love that so much. The book is Good Inside, which is descriptive. It is excellent all the way through. And we are so grateful that you spent some time with us, Dr. Becky.
Sarah [00:48:19] Again. Thank you to Dr. Becky and to all of you and to the people of Oklahoma City, both at the Oklahoma City Community College and the Junior League of Oklahoma City, for giving us such an incredibly warm welcome this week. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday with our thoughts on the January 6th hearing. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.
Beth [00:48:47] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.
Sarah [00:48:52] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.
Beth [00:48:58] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.
Executive producers (Read their own names) [00:49:03] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haler. Helen Handly. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holliday, Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. The Kriebs. Lori LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karen True. Anika Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Vilelli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.
Beth [00:49:39] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McCue. Nicole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.
Sarah [00:49:50] I'm going to go get my 'I'm a good parent having a hard time' tattoo now. It's fine. It's really going to really serve me.