January 6th Hearings: They're Back

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • A Recap of the First Eight January 6th Committee Hearings

  • Developments Since the Last January 6th Hearing

  • Outside of Politics: Piano Lessons

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EPISODE RESOURCES

January 6th Hearings: Pantsuit Politics Resources

New Developments Since the Last January 6th Committee Hearing

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:26] Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. We're gearing up for a big week. We've kind of been in this holding pattern. It has felt like the news was very pregnant maybe, and that eventually it would be born. But we've just kind of been holding and holding and we're getting there. This week, the January six committee of the House of Representatives is holding what is expected to be its last public hearing of the year. And we wanted to spend some time both reviewing their work previously and previewing what might come out of this hearing. We're going to consider what we've learned and how we've been processing in the two months since that last hearing. And then we always end with what's on our minds Outside of Politics. Today, I'm going to tell you about how I'm taking piano lessons again, just feeling like I'm nine-years-old over here. It's really good.  

Sarah [00:01:11] We are so grateful to be hitting the road again this week for in-person speaking. We'll be in Oklahoma City to speak at Oklahoma City Community College and the Oklahoma City Junior League, which you can get tickets to if you're in the area. We're working on our speaking schedule for next year, 2023, and we would love to spend time with your organization, your school, your community. We personalize every talk. These are not canned presentations. We really, really, like to focus on the needs of the particular place at which we are speaking. That's why Q&A is always our favorite part. We like to workshop problems and coach people through them. It's very different. With two speakers, it can be more conversational than professorial, and just talking to the audience. We have seven openings left now for 2023. So if you are interested, please contact Alise@pantsuitpolitics.com or Hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. You can also just visit our website there's an events and speaking page at Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com and check it all out.  

Beth [00:02:12] Next up, we're going to review the work of the January six committee. The January six committee is back. They are holding their next public hearing on Wednesday, September 28th at 1:00 p.m. Eastern. This is expected to be the last public hearing. We had all this talk about season two. No, they're just coming back one more time.  

Sarah [00:02:41] Just a finale.  

Beth [00:02:42] And not even in primetime. I was really interested. I saw a report this morning that Representative Zoe Lofgren said that one scheduling factor is that Fox will show the hearings during the daytime, but not in primetime. And they would like to reach an audience that is not just on CNN.  

Sarah [00:02:58] Hmm. Interesting. Interesting.  

Beth [00:03:01] So they have had eight public hearings so far. We covered those eight hearings in depth. You can find all of our episodes and newsletters and highlight reels and Twitter threads in our January six Study Guide on our website. We'll link that in the show notes today. But we wanted to do a more comprehensive review because I don't know about you, Sarah, but I feel like I've lived several lives since the end of July. And as I was preparing for this episode, there is a lot to hold in your mind going into this last hearing to have the full context and consider where the committee might go next.  

Sarah [00:03:38] I remember at the beginning when we started down this road with the January six hearing, I felt like what are they going to tell us that we don't already know? That was wildly misplaced skepticism. But it felt like such a public event that I did wonder, what are we going to learn? But what they've shown us over the course of this hearing is quite a lot. But you're right. I mean, it's  been so much. And the spacing plus the time of year that we were watching all of it, it is hard to sort of keep in mind everything we've learned, this whole story that they're putting together. Because the story they're telling is not just the actions of the rioters on January 6th. That moment we were all watching where they broke through the barriers, they came into the capital, what they've shown us over time is that was the zenith of the events. But really what we're talking about is weeks and months leading up to that moment. And we're not just talking about the actions of the Americans on the ground in the Capitol that day, but particularly the actions of Donald Trump and his advisers and the people around him and what they were doing-- not only leading up to that day, but causing the events of that day.  

Beth [00:05:02] And that's really where the committee starts. That the goal was an articulated well understood goal. Post election, the goal was to keep Donald Trump in power however it was to happen. And everything was on the table. So that first hearing pushed back on attempts to diminish the riot that day and talked about-- remember we had the Capitol Police officers telling how medieval the violence felt, how gruesome it was for the Capitol Police and members who were hiding there, and really letting go of this idea that people wandered into January 6th. That's where I started. I believed that a lot of people wandered into January six, and I still think some folks did. But what the committee is showing is that a meaningful percentage of the people there had a clear coordinated goal to halt the certification of the Electoral College votes.  

Sarah [00:06:01] I think they've been successful in killing that narrative. I really do. I think we are no longer having this debate of was this a protest that just got out of hand? These are just some tour groups wandering around. I mean, those were ludicrous from the beginning, really. But I think what the committee has done is make that argument just so foolish. It can't even sustain itself in a place like Fox News. I feel like we've stopped hearing that alternative reality and argument. I think that not just the first hearing, but the hearings as they cumulated have really put an end to any, well, this was just a confluence of events that just kind of got out of hand. They've done an excellent job of just saying, no, that's not what happened here.  

Beth [00:06:57] I think for individuals, there were still people who meandered in there. There were people who went to that rally and thought, I'll walk over and check it out. One of the witnesses who testified about being there that day, the guy from Ohio who works in a factory, I think there were people individually who just got caught up in a moment. I don't think that's ludicrous. But the idea that it was this perfect storm and it couldn't be recreated to me is the point. They're showing how easily this could be recreated, how much momentum they had going into January six, and how much momentum the groups and ideas that animated the riot exist and could come together again.  

Sarah [00:07:41] Well, and I think what else they've done successfully is killed this idea that these people were swept up by the behavior of those on the ground that day. I think what they've done is say, no, what they were swept up in was highly orchestrated from the top down.  

Beth [00:08:01] And that really was the second hearing where we learn how everybody around former President Trump understood that he lost the election, explained to him that he lost the election, that courts came to the same conclusion, that state officials came to the same conclusions. And despite that, he persisted in telling the public he won and that he fundraised off that lie. And that's that orchestration from the top. That Donald Trump was incentivized emotionally, intellectually, in terms of power, and financially to lie about this. And he did. And he lied consistently because he's a marketer and he built this marketing campaign around the idea that he actually won the election and it was stolen from him.  

Sarah [00:08:48] Yeah, his psychic survival is really rooted in the idea that he is a winner, not a loser. So losing the presidential campaign was a really intense moment for him. I mean, I think he's still obviously struggling with it. He cannot accept it. He cannot live with it. And I think this hearing really upended for me what I told myself, which is he just doesn't have anybody around him who will tell him the truth. No one will look at him and say, "You lost. It's time to move on," because there is prolific reporting on how-- and we're going to get to that in some later hearings too-- he screams and he yells and he threatens. And so telling him something that he does not want to hear is difficult. He creates an environment that is sort of based around loyalty and fear and groupthink and well-- not even groupthink. His think, Trump think, that's the think. And so that's what I told myself. It's like nobody will tell him. And what we learned from this hearing is like, no, that's not true. Many, many, many, people said you lost. You lost. It's over. Including election night where they were, like, do not go out there and say you've won. You have not won. And I think hearing that so definitively that people articulated to his face repeatedly, you have lost this election, was very impactful.  

Beth [00:10:21] And so then we heard about what he started to do as the results sunk in further and as he was losing in court. And so we hear about this pressure campaign on Mike Pence, that Trump decides that Mike Pence is the guy who can, by hisself, through his role overseeing the counting of the electoral votes, just stop everything in its tracks. And that hearing was really powerful because we learned that Mike Pence's team vetted this very thoroughly. Mike Pence has gone to the ends of the earth to try to do what Donald Trump won since the moment he was tapped as his running mate. And they concluded that he could not do it. And when they concluded that he could not do it, Trump pointed the crowd toward Mike Pence and had seemingly no regrets about that.  

Sarah [00:11:12] This is also where you start to see this pattern that you see over the next couple of hearings. Which is when people tell him what he doesn't want to hear, which is you lost the election, Mike Pence cannot overturn the results of the election, the DOJ can't help you, then he starts to push those people out and find more radical, unhinged people like Rudy Giuliani, like Sidney Powell, who will tell him what he wants to hear. And so that's where you start to see, I think, this pattern really drifting and reach its zenith when we get to the DOJ hearing, that people tell him what he doesn't want to hear, he goes out and find somebody who will. And with Pence, I think the reason this was such an intense moment and you hear him cursing Mike Pence and calling him a pejorative for the female body, is because there's no way to replace him. That's what he wants to do. He wants to just fire somebody and find somebody who will do or tell him what he wants. And so when he couldn't with Mike Pence, when he couldn't replace him, fire him, find somebody to do what he wants to be done, it's like Mike Pence-- if there was a way to do this, which there wasn't because it's illegal, Mike Pence was the only one and Mike Pence said no. And so you see really explosive behavior coming from Trump.  

Beth [00:12:40] So the fourth and fifth hearings were about this efforts to just keep looking for anybody who would do what he wanted. The fourth hearing was really about state and local election officials and how Trump put high level officials and ordinary citizens in danger as he tried to spread these lies around. That's when we heard from the election workers in Georgia and the election stories in Georgia just continue to balloon. We'll talk more about what's happened since these hearings in a second. But wowza, Georgia has a lot going on. But Trump was just it didn't matter who he put in danger, from Mike Pence all the way down to people who just work to count the votes. Anybody in his path was fair game to him.  

Sarah [00:13:23] And you know what struck me around the fourth hearing in these state and local officials, beyond just enormous bravery, I think Rusty Bowers' testimony was something I will remember for the rest of my life.  

Rusty Bowers [00:13:37] And I said, again, "I took an oath." And he said, "Just do it and let the courts sort it out." And I said, "You're asking me to do something that's never been done in history (the history of the United States), that I would put us through that-- my state-- that I swore to uphold, both in constitution and in law? No, sir."  

Sarah [00:14:07] And he suffered the consequences. He lost his primary. He continues to just be threatened and intimidated by Arizona Republicans. But it's just that like there was no one too low in this sort of hierarchy of power for Donald Trump not to mess with or threaten.  I'm surprised he wasn't actually calling up election workers. Maybe we'll find out that he did. But there was just nobody so sort of low on the election totem pole for him not to call and basically threaten or try to intimidate.You would think he would leave it to lieutenants, but he didn't. He was calling up these poor people himself.  

Beth [00:14:45] The fifth hearing was that DOJ hearing that you alluded to, Sarah, and that hearing more than any other, called back to Watergate. For me, just hearing about these efforts to fire people, to gather members of Congress around him and assist him in these efforts to find this environmental lawyer to plug in as the head of the DOJ, it was a really interesting hearing. It was a little bit difficult to follow at points because it was so lawyerly. But a big takeaway for me is that he had these members of the House willing to do just about anything for him, and that those folks ended up requesting pardons in connection with their activities. They knew at the time that they were playing with fire and yet they continue to serve in the House. And many of them will likely win reelection to the House. So that fifth hearing was really chilling for me.  

Sarah [00:15:37] Yeah, I think the scheduling of this hearing after the local officials was particularly impactful, because what you had here is election officials all over the country with not a lot of power.They had a power in the right place when it came to the election of Donald Trump, but not a huge amount of power saying, like, no, I can't. It's illegal. You know, standing up to the president. And then you see these people with a lot of power, a lot of power high up, and the DOJ saying we were dealing with the same bullshit. We were dealing with him listening to whatever lunatic had his ear last, telling him that this is what he could do and this was legal and him trying to, again, fire and replace the people who would not do what he wanted to do. And it was heartening to see DOJ officials (many of which I have enormous disagreement with when it comes to briefs they've written or positions they've argued inside the DOJ and outside the DOJ) banding together and saying this far and no farther. Like, we will not allow this to happen and we will quit in mass. And in some ways as I was watching it, I thought, well, I'm actually surprised. I'm surprised he didn't just say, well, if you're all going to quit, go ahead and quit. I want this bad enough. And then in some ways, I think it's really brilliant of the committee to make that moment so clear. Because the concern has always been, well, if he really believed he won, then he can argue that in court or otherwise to say, you can't hold me responsible because I really believed I won and there was nothing I wouldn't do if I believed I won. But what this moment shows is that there were things he wouldn't do. There were decisions he made where he said, "Oh, well, that's too much. I won't do that." And I think it is brilliant of the committee to put those moments in sharp relief.  

Beth [00:17:35] Yeah, that's a really good point Sarah. There's like no not guilty by reason of mental incompetence here because all of the decisions were calculated. And that's what really came to light with Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony, which I think was significant for two reasons. As to January six, we learned from Cassidy Hutchinson that Trump knew the crowd was armed. He knew the crowd was dangerous. He knew what the crowd might be capable of and that he wanted to point them to the Capitol. In fact, he wanted to go himself to watch what the crowd might do on his behalf at the Capitol. The other thing that I think we got from Cassidy Hutchinson that I keep thinking about is just the character of the man. As you talked about when you were saying that it was maybe hard for people to tell him the truth. Cassidy Hutchinson gave a very granular account of what it was like to be around Donald Trump when he was angry.  

Cassidy Hutchinson [00:18:27] I first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall and there's a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. The valet had articulated that the president was extremely angry at the Attorney General's AP interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall.  

Beth [00:18:50] Just the temper tantrums and the effect that it had on everyone around him. This is a little bit of an aside, but I keep thinking about it. I saw a tweet from Matt Iglesias this morning saying that everyone seems awfully chill about what's obviously a heightened nuclear threat in Russia. And I have just been contemplating danger over the weekend. Saturday morning Chad took a walk and was bitten by a dog on his walk. It was pretty bad, he had to go to urgent care. And I have been kind of sitting with the stories about that nuclear threat and Chad's dog bite and just thinking about the nature of danger, and how constantly there are so many dangers that our brains just cannot process. I have to be chill about the nuclear threat. What else am I to do? There's nothing that I can do to control that. What I think this set of hearings has done so effectively is say to the American public, yes, there's a lot in the world that you can't control, but here's a thing that you can. And they're really homing in on this one person's character because just exercising the one thing we can do, not reelecting Donald Trump, just that one action insulates us from so much harm. It doesn't mean everything in the world is perfect, but it insulates us from so much harm. And I think Cassidy Hutchinson testifying as to the daily reality of this kind of personality in the Oval Office, drives that home.  

Sarah [00:20:24] Her testimony was described at the time as blockbuster. I think that remains true. It was blockbuster testimony because it really put you in the Oval Office, in the car at the rally with him to understand what his state of mind was. And the moment I'll never forget is when she talked about he wanted to remove the metal detectors. Well, they're armed. The easy solution to that is just to not make them pass through metal detectors. And his explosive temper, the moment she describes that he almost got in fisticuffs with a Secret Service agent in an effort to direct his car to the Capitol, because at this point he knew Mike Pence was not going to do what he wanted him to do. And so he was ready to do whatever it took, including showing up with armed protesters at the United States Capitol to try to overthrow the election. I mean, really an armed coup. I mean, he knew they were armed. He wanted to lead them to the Capitol. What else would you call that?  

Beth [00:21:31] Yeah, I will never forget her saying that he told them about taking down the mags. Like, they're not here to hurt me. They won't hurt me. Like, he really understood how he could harness the energy of this crowd. He understood that he was the trigger for these people. Not someone who could be injured by them. The seventh hearing took us down who some of these people were and talked to us about how Oath Keepers, and Proud Boys, and QAnon adjacent groups were working in common cause to disrupt the counting of the electoral votes and that Trump intended that, and that his actions and his statements show that he intended that. And that's also the hearing where we heard about some of the non militia types who got swept up in all of this because of just a relentless campaign through social media, and email, and video, and all the ways that Trump communicated relentlessly with his followers.  

Sarah [00:22:31] Well, and I think it's really important, because if you're a person who does not follow politics closely, if you're a moderate or an independent or just someone who's sort of apolitical, I think it's easy to roll your eyes and blow off the idea that he was harnessing that energy. He was directing people. Until you hear regular people say he clearly wanted us to go there. He told us to go there. So I went. He told me and I went.  

January 6th Hearing [00:22:58] And Trump asked us to come. He personally asked for us to come to DC that day.  

Donald Trump [00:23:03] We're going to walk down to the Capitol!  

January 6th Hearing [00:23:09] [Inaudible] President Trump mentioning going to the Capitol during his speech.  

Sarah [00:23:12] And talking about the psychological need those movements fulfill in people and how someone can join the Oath Keepers and feel like it's fulfilling purpose in their life and how they were very keyed in to his tweets and his words. And so he was directing people. I just thought it was important to remember, like, you might roll your eyes at that and think, how could someone do that? But they do. And I thought the committee did a good job of sort of highlighting people's stories and saying, like, this is what it looks like. Remember, this is a thing that can happen in a normal average American's life.  

Beth [00:23:49] Anything that you binge works on you, right? If I binge a podcast, even if it's a podcast about living a good, grounded life, it affects me. It affects me and I lose a little bit of myself and I find myself leaning a little bit into those ideas. I have never been a YouTube person, but it is not a stretch for me to imagine how you can get into YouTube and just be captivated by something. It doesn't sound any sillier to me, honestly, to hear someone like the witness from Ohio in this hearing say, "I just listened and I got caught up in it. And he said to go and I decided to go."  

Sarah [00:24:30] So I went.  

Beth [00:24:30] It doesn't sound sillier to me than listening to the Texas Tribune interview with Liz Cheney that I was watching this morning, where she talked about how she voted 90 something percent of the time with Donald Trump because she really agrees with him on policy. I laughed out loud when I heard her say that still, because I think the conclusion of these hearings was that it was never about policy. For the vast majority of people who have a real attachment to Donald Trump, it's never been about policy. And I think it's better to just say that out loud, to say it is about him as a media figure who got in the heads and the hearts of the people who he really spoke to. That is okay. That's an experience we can all relate to. The question is, what are we going to do about it now? And the folks who have stood up and said, well, but it's just about policy have prevented us from really doing something about that that's healthy and helpful.  

Sarah [00:25:25] Yeah, I think that Liz has done a lot of work, but she's probably not all the way done with her own internal work. It's okay.  

Beth [00:25:35] We all have miles to go in our own internal work. It's all right.  

Sarah [00:25:38] That's right.  

Beth [00:25:40] I will take Liz's work every day and I'm grateful for it. But I was surprised to hear her still kind of saying that she did say she regretted voting for him at least the second time.  And then the last hearing before the committee took its big break was back to the day itself, and how terrifying and violent that day was and how Trump watched it unfold and never used any of the many, many, tools at his disposal to stop the violence, to assist the people in the Capitol, to bring any kind of order back to the scene. None. And instead, he was interested in continuing to put pressure on his handpicked senators to try to delay certification of the vote to the bitter end. To the bitter end.  

Sarah [00:26:26] Yeah. They were very focused on that 187 minutes. Three hours he sat there and had every piece of information available to him. If you can think back to that day and remember how horrified you are just to watch the little pieces of footage and moments we could watch from CNN, and to think he had all that and more, he had people calling him from the ground, conveying the depth of danger and he did nothing. He did nothing as the Capitol was under attack. It's just so disgusting. It is so clearly a violation of his oath of office and a dereliction of duty. And I think they proved that definitively.  

Beth [00:27:09] So we'll take a quick break now. And when we come back, we're going to talk about things that have happened since the last hearings that might preview where we go next. Sarah, I said to you that I feel like I've lived several lives since July. Members of the committee have to feel that way too. So much has happened since they last held a public hearing. One piece is they requested information from Newt Gingrich. We are going to link the committee's letter to the former speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich. This letter is a sight to behold. They clearly have the goods on Newt Gingrich and all of the ways in which he perpetuated this lie, and perpetuated the fundraising, and continued and continued and continued, even after January six, to press for ways to up the agitation of the American public. So I am just very fascinated to see what the committee says in its final report about Mr. Gingrich.  

Sarah [00:28:19] I would like to see Newt Gingrich be held responsible for the harm he has caused to America in one way or the other. I am not picky about how it comes, I would just like some consequences.  

Beth [00:28:30] Well, this letter indicates that the committee has real specific ideas about what he has done and how he might be held accountable for those actions. They have also been looking at communications among Secret Service agents and security details. If you remember, there was-- this is a bunch-- reports about deleted communications of the Secret Service that the committee has been looking into. There was an attempt by someone off the record at the Secret Service to refute parts of Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony. So a lot of energy of the committee has gone into running some of those pieces down. I don't know how much we'll hear about that in the next hearing, but I am interested in the final report there as well, because what is more critical than ensuring that the Secret Service is functioning in an ethical and effective way?  

Sarah [00:29:26] We also have Ginni Thomas-- just so beloved across America-- wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, coming and agreeing to an interview with the committee. She was very involved, particularly with the organizers of the rally at the mall that day, and I think the committee has some questions for her. I think they have some questions for her. I also have some questions for her beyond the events of January six. But I'm happy to start there.  

Beth [00:29:55] It's interesting because at first her lawyer made all these public statements about failing to see how her testimony could possibly be valuable to the committee, and then suddenly she's agreeing to a voluntary interview with the committee. So I'm wondering what form of specific information might have been shared with her as well to persuade her that cooperation was in her interest? And then as you reported on one of your Thursday Good News Mornings, Sarah, Steve Bannon was convicted on two counts of contempt of Congress. Former Trump adviser, Peter Navarro will also be tried for contempt in November. And the committee is still in litigation with Mark Meadows. I think Mark Meadows is just trying to run out the clock on this committee, and he probably will. And the judge in that case is super duper annoyed that the committee is pushing this in court and asking him to make what he views as a really consequential decision about compelling Mark Meadows to testify. It's not even compelling him to testify. The procedural posture of this is really strange, but I don't think we'll end up hearing from Mark Meadows before the end of the year.  

Sarah [00:31:02] Yeah, he's not the only one that's used that strategy of trying to [Inaudible] round the clock. So it seems a common approach among the Trump advisers and staff.  

Beth [00:31:10] Do you remember John Eastman, the lawyer who got involved with Sidney Powell and Michael Flynn and the Mypillow guy with a theory about how Mike Pence could halt the counting of the Electoral College votes? John Eastman, the committee already had a lot of his email correspondence. It has sought another 3,200 pages of that email correspondence.  

Sarah [00:31:32] And he testified before the committee. They showed him saying the fifth, fifth, fifth, plead the fifth, fifth, fifth over and over again in one of the hearings.  

John Eastman [00:31:40] I assert my Fifth Amendment right against being compelled to be a witness against myself.  

Beth [00:31:44] There is like a kerfuffle right now around Denver Riggleman, who worked for the committee until April. Without being super transparent with everyone, he wrote a book about this. And then he did a 60 Minutes interview that Twitter is all excited about as we're recording today. I think the thing to know is that Denver Riggleman has an incomplete picture of the committee's work, and that's what the committee has really been saying in public. Don't take everything that this guy is saying as gospel because he doesn't know what happened since he left in April. And we have run down some of the things that he is talking about. He's made a lot of noise about a call from the White House switchboard being connected to a Capitol rioter. I'm seeing this morning reports that make that sound like it is much less of a bombshell than he has described it to be. So for what it's worth, he's floating around out there. And I think the committee sooner or later was going to have to deal with something that felt like a leak. It's amazing that they made it this far in the process without that. But for what that's worth, it's out there. The committee has looked for phone records from Kelli Ward, the Republican Party chair in Arizona. Kelli Ward was part of orchestrating a fake slate of electors for Arizona, and she sued to try to block that subpoena but a federal judge last week said no. Undoubtedly, those phone records are going to be valuable to this committee and they may have them. What is going on in Arizona, just by the way? I don't look at those races and think what has happened here?  

Sarah [00:33:22] I don't know. Well, and we didn't really get into the fake electors, but that was a huge part of the hearing from local officials as it wasn't just in Arizona. As we get into consequences outside the committee itself, I think these investigations into the fake elector scheme is going to be a big one.  

Beth [00:33:39] One of the tools the committee used to demonstrate that Donald Trump intended to activate militia groups was the testimony of a Twitter whistleblower. And that Twitter whistleblower's identity was kept anonymous and the voice obscured. But we have since learned who that is through a Washington Post profile. Anika Collier Navaroli, a former policy official on the team designing Twitter's content moderation rules. And I just saw this quote in The Washington Post piece that I thought we should share here. She said, "My fear within the American context is that we have seen our last peaceful transition of power. But the same playbook is being used around the world, teeing up the idea that if an election is not in someone's favor, it's been rigged. And it's a reminder to me that folks working on these large social media platforms have an American context in mind and are seeing this play out across the world." And, to me, that elevates the threat. Once again, it's just another reminder that we can do something about this. We can't do something about global trends, but we can do something about it here. And if a person in the private sector takes the risk that this employee has taken on, it just inspires me to do everything that I can do in my little life to try to prevent this from happening again.  

Sarah [00:35:01] So let's talk about all the things people are doing outside the committee based on the committee's investigation, because it very much feels like and felt like over the course of these hearings that the committee was packaging, and racking, and wrapping up all their investigation in neat little bows and sending it directly to the DOJ and saying, "Would you be interested in this?" And it turns out the answer is yes. So the investigations into some of the higher up coordination surrounding January six, obviously, the DOJ has been doing an enormous amount of criminal prosecution and investigations with regards to the people on the ground that day like actually breaching the Capitol, and engaging in property damage, and domestic terrorism. And that's been ongoing and continues. But there seems to be more investigation at the DOJ surrounding some of the higher level coordination. They seized Mypillow CEO Mike Lindell cell phone.  

Beth [00:35:56] At a Hardee's in the drive through.  

Sarah [00:35:59] At a Hardee's. I would pay for a video of that. There has been FEC complaints surrounding some of the fundraising. There's investigations into that. And listen, y'all, that's all separate from the classified documents in the Mar-a-Lago situation. I think they're just getting started with regards to investigations regarding some of the findings of the January six committee. I think those have just begun and I think there will be many, many, more.  

Beth [00:36:25] And the Georgia prosecutions, I think, are going to end up being very significant because, remember, a federal pardon does not extend to state level crime.  

Sarah [00:36:36] Right.  

Beth [00:36:38] States have a lot of power to secure their own elections and to maintain the integrity around their own elections. And there's a prosecutor in Atlanta who very much understands that. And I think the work of Fani Willis is going to end up being some of their most significant activity that comes out of the past couple of years, because she is pursuing this in a very focused and methodical way. And if you read any profile of her, she doesn't miss very often. Her record is impressive. This is a person who does not mess around. So it seems like there is more and more coming out about activity on election day. People gaining access to voting software who shouldn't have been there in both Georgia and in Colorado. And I think we could see more of that. So it's hard enough to keep your arms around all of the federal work, but the state work is continuing and intensifying, too.  

Sarah [00:37:32] And beyond investigations, we have actual legislation. Zoe Lofgren and Liz Cheney introduced the Presidential Electoral Reform Act-- hallelujah, praise the Lord-- and it passed. All Democrats and non Republicans voted for it. Two hundred and three Republicans voted against it, which I'm furious about. But it makes really important reforms to the Electoral Count Act, which is just a really crappy written piece of legislation that all the people advocating for Mike Pence to take control that day were basing all their arguments on. So this this piece of legislation would reform that and say the VP is just administrative. He's only presiding over the counting. He does not have a role to play. It would raise the threshold to object to electoral votes to at least one third of the House in the Senate that have to sign on to a challenge rather than where it is now which just one member from each chamber, which is too low and easily exploitable, which is what we saw on January 6th. And the objections have to be defined on a constitutional basis. And so there's some reforms within this legislation that are important. We've been advocating for that on this show. So many people have been writing if we do nothing else, please, please let us reform the electoral count act. Now, this is separate from the Senate version that they're working on right now, but I feel very hopeful they're going to get this done, don't you?  

Beth [00:38:47] I do. I saw that Susan Collins is a little miffed that she was not consulted in advance by the House before this proposal draft, because she's she's been working with this bipartisan group in the Senate-- which I appreciate-- to try to get some good work done. But they think they can work these differences out. I want to say about those 203 Republicans who voted against this legislation. The chief complaint that I've heard from those Republicans about this legislation is that it takes control from the state and puts it in the federal government about elections. But if you look at what it actually does, it mostly regulates the behavior of members of Congress.  

Sarah [00:39:26] That's the part they don't like.  

Beth [00:39:27] They don't like that part. And it does say to state legislatures, you may not change the rules if you don't like the outcome of the election. The way that your state will submit its votes to the Electoral College must be defined before the election happens. Now, that is a taking of control from states that I personally like. That you have to tell your citizens what the rules are before they vote so that you can't just change your mind if you don't like the way they voted.  

Sarah [00:39:54] Yeah, I like that.  

Beth [00:39:55] So this is a lot. Sarah, as we go into this final hearing for the year, what are you really looking for? Are there any pieces that you think the dots haven't been connected on or any witnesses you haven't heard from yet that you hope to hear from? What's your expectation and hope going into this last hearing?  

Sarah [00:40:14] Yeah, I wonder if they're just going to put it all together for everyone. I don't know. I've long learned not to underestimate this committee or try to predict this committee. And so I don't know if this is going to be a wrap up. I don't know if they have a final witness that they really think is going to take back control of the narrative and get America's attention again. I think they have succeeded in getting America's attention with this, so I really don't know. I don't know. I look forward to what they have to say.  

Beth [00:40:44] I do, too. And I imagine we'll know more about it even after we hit publish on this episode than we do as we're recording it. But I kind of like going into this a little bit fresh after having a break, having some time to review and digest, because I do think this committee has done really good and important work and I really look forward to reading their report once it's released. So we will certainly cover this hearing next Tuesday after we've had some time to watch it and process it and be back with you. And we really appreciate how many of you have heeded our call to please pay attention to these hearings because they're really important. We always end our episodes by talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics. And, Sarah, I just wanted to share that I've started piano lessons again and it's been a delight.  

Sarah [00:41:39] I saw that. I also saw that your childhood piano teacher recently passed away. This seems like a real poignant confluence of events.  

Beth [00:41:47] It does. I took lessons, I believe, from first to eighth grade with Sister Marie Julie Fletcher at Brescia College in Owensboro, Kentucky. And Sister Mary Julie was just an absolute delight of a human being. Now, when you hear that I took lessons from a nun, you might have a picture. And I bet the reality is nothing like the picture that you have. She had a large laboratory full of computers and synthesizers back in the eighties, and she was using software to teach me theory. She held what was called the Scales Olympics every year. I remember we would come in and we would drink lemonade, and then we would play scales and arpeggios and chord progressions all day long, and there were like winners crowned at the end. So she was an intense teacher. She was so disciplined. She was so kind. I wrote on Instagram she taught me to see the math in music and the music in math, and was just such a wonderful influence on me. And I've always felt kind of bad that I let piano go. I think if Sister Mary Julie had not retired, I would have kept taking piano lessons from her. When I got into high school, I really wanted to sing, so I dropped piano and focused on voice for high school and college. But as I've gotten older, I have a piano that I was given by one of my dad's cousins. It was his parents, and when they passed away, he asked if anyone in the family would like it. So it's an upright piano that they took excellent care of. And I just look at it often and I think about how my mother still loves to play the piano. One of the ways we know that my mom is doing well is if she's sitting at the piano again. And I decided I want this back. I want to show Jane and Ellen what it looks like to practice. They both play instruments, and we struggle a little bit with our instrument practice around here. And it's really been fun. And I'm lucky because I found a teacher locally who let me just walk in and say, "Here are my goals. I'd like to be able to help out at church occasionally, I'd like to show the kids how to practice, and I'd like to sit down and be able to play like a Jewel song or a Brandi Carlile song and sing and just have a nice moment." And she said, "Okay, that's what we're doing. And it's been great.  

Sarah [00:44:02] On Instagram this weekend, I shared Colleen McCullough's author biography. She's the author of The Thorn Birds, which is my mother's favorite book, and I'm reading it currently. In the last line she says she likes anything that uses her hands as well as her brain. And I thought that's so good. And it's so true for piano because it's like driving. Like, you can sort of start playing and then you're thinking, but you're reading the music and playing. It has to be so good for our just stress level and brains to sort of rest that internal dialog or redirect it in a way. That I always found really great. I took piano in elementary and middle school. I'm not really sure exactly when I quit. My piano teacher, Miss Cowad, is still around and awesome. Her son is a famous piano player and actually plays for Brandi Carlile. He played at her concert performing Joni Mitchell's album Blue in New York City. So I never quite learned to be able to play without looking at my hands. And so that's always my struggles. I can't place my fingers on the keys without having to look down and I never quite got there. But I do enjoy playing. I wish I'd learn to play jazz piano. I think I would have really enjoyed that. But I admire you going back and taking lessons. I think that's really awesome.  

Beth [00:45:09] I'm not very good at having leisure time. I kind of look for some piece of productivity around all leisure time, and I think piano lessons has been a really good way to have that structure that I seem to need, but to also do something that doesn't really have a purpose. It's just for me. I'm not trying to play any concertos over here. I'm not doing a recital. I'm just playing because I want to play. And that's been really helpful to me. To sit for 30 minutes of practice or so a day just because I want to has been really great. Well, we hope that you are finding pockets of leisure in your life without a ton of structure. And we really appreciate you spending some of your precious time with us. Before we go, we just want to remind you again that we would love to spend some time in person with you and your organization. So you can go to our Website, Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. For more information about our speaking engagements, you can also reach out to Alise, A-l-i-s-e, our managing director for more information. All of the links that you need for that will be in our show notes, and we can't wait for you to come back on Friday. We know that the January six hearing is going to take place. We'll cover that on Tuesday. But because we'll be in Oklahoma, we are sharing on Friday a very special interview with you with Dr. Becky, who has a whole lot to say about how the way that we are raised impacts the way that we behave civically. So Dr. Becky on Friday and then the January six hearing on Tuesday. We look forward to all of that. And until then, have the best week available to you.  

[00:46:51] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:46:57] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:47:03] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:47:07] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handly. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holliday. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. The Kriebs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson, Tracey Puthoff. Sarah ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karen True. Onica Ulveling Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:47:43] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McCue. Nicole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  

January 6th Hearing [00:47:54] White House attorney Eric Herschmann testified that the next day, January 7th, he received a call from Dr. Eastman. Here is Mr. Herschmann's account of that call.  

Eric Herschmann [00:48:06] The day after he wanted to talk with me when he said he couldn't reach others. And he started to ask me about something dealing with Georgia and preserving something potentially for appeal. And I said to him, "Are you out of your f***ing mind?"  I said, "I only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth for now on-- orderly transition." I said, "I don't want to hear any other f***ing words coming out of your mouth, no matter what, other than 'orderly transition'. Repeat those words to me."  

January 6th Hearing [00:48:52] What did he say?  

Eric Herschmann [00:48:54] Eventually he said orderly transition. I said, "Good John. Now I'm going to give you the best free legal advice you're ever getting in your life. Get a great f***ing criminal defense lawyer. You're going to need it."  


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