Teen Mental Health

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • The Complexity of Teen Mental Health

Thank you for being a part of our community! We couldn't do it without you. To become a financial supporter of the show, please visit our Patreon page, subscribe to our Premium content on Apple Podcasts Subscriptions, purchase a copy of our books, Now What? How to Move Forward When We’re Divided (About Basically Everything) and I Think You're Wrong (But I'm Listening), or share the word about our work in your own circles.

Sign up for our newsletter to keep up with all our news. Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook for our real time reactions to breaking news, GIF news threads, and personal content. To purchase Pantsuit Politics merchandise, check out our store or visit our merchandise partners: TeePublic, Stealth Steel Designs, and Desert Studio Jewelry. Gift a personalized message from Sarah and Beth through Cameo. You can find information and links for all our sponsors on our website.

EPISODE RESOURCES

PANTSUIT POLITICS RESOURCES

THE TEEN MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08]  And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello, everyone. Welcome to a very special episode of Pantsuit Politics. We are going to dedicate this entire episode to teens. We're going to talk about the current mental health crisis among teens. We're going to talk about positive stories around teens are. We going to talk about parenting teens and all the factors at play inside schools and our health care system and all the institutions that affect teens lives.  

Beth [00:00:53] We've been wanting to talk about this for a while. We've been preparing for a long time. It is easy to let something like this be eclipsed by the demands of the news cycle, and we did not want to do that. We are not intending to communicate by that, that anything else happening is unimportant. And we specifically want to let you know that we are planning an entire episode to discuss Senator Graham's proposed 15 week abortion ban at the federal level, and the ongoing fallout from the Supreme Court's decision overturning Roe V. Wade. Because that is a very big deal. And it, like this topic, deserves a lot of time and care and preparation and attention. We're going to talk with some experts and activists to talk through what is happening in the midst of this fallout. What is empowering in the midst of this fallout. What can you be doing? So all of that will be coming your way next week. But today we're really going to focus in on this topic that deserves special care.  

Sarah [00:01:53] Before we get started, we did want to tell you that we're going to have a Ask Us Anything event on our premium podcast channel, September 22nd at 7.00 Central, 8.00 Eastern. So if you're interested in joining our premium community and being a part of that event, you can find all the links in the show notes. Up next, our conversation about teens and the current mental health crisis. From the U.S. surgeon general to probably your local principal, alarms have been sounding across the country that teens are experiencing a mental health crisis. The public health concerns for teens when we were growing up were drug abuse, drinking, teen pregnancy, and that is no longer the case. Those are not the public health concerns any longer. Right now, we are dealing with reports of major depressive episodes, emergency room visits for self-harm, anxiety, mood disorders. Just self-reported mental health challenges among teens. All of those are rising. And most heartbreaking of all, the suicide rate for people ages 10 to 24, which had been stable for years, increased 60% between 2009 and 2018. And that is a statistic that's easy to forget, that those are all people's children and those are all really, really, young people taking their own lives.  

Beth [00:03:27] And that date, 2018, is pre-pandemic. So we want to have a conversation about this, but we recognize that we're just starting a conversation about this here on the show and in our community. Because Sarah and I are just in this with you. We don't have special expertize about this. We are parents. Sarah has a teenager. I have a tween. And we are just in this with you. So this is a really sensitive topic and we're making grace the word for the show. It's always the case that we are sitting here talking about something generally and someone listening is living it specifically. Today, that is even more the case. And there are very few people who are not concerned about a teen somewhere in their sphere of connection. So we're just trying to get this started. We're not going to cover everything. We're not going to get everything that we do cover right in a way that hits just right for every person who's living the specifics of this, and that's okay. We're just going to do our best and then we're going to continue to listen to you. You all have already weighed in and given us lots of stories. We know that you will after this episode, and we think just continuing that conversation here is really important. So we're going to just do our best.  

Sarah [00:04:43] Yeah. You are going to hear us say something and your reaction might be, "That's not true for me. I didn't mean to do that," or feel attacked. That's inevitable. We are not attacking anyone.  

Beth [00:04:55] Or here's this huge thing that you missed. We will Absolutely.  

Sarah [00:04:59] Yes, inevitably. Inevitably. So just everybody take a deep breath. This is a hard thing. But because it's a hard thing, we have to try to talk about it. Knowing that somebody might get their feelings hurt, knowing that we're going to miss something, knowing that this is just the beginning.  

Beth [00:05:15] And it is particularly hard because this is a topic that I know I have some amount of fear about, and that's not always the case when we sit down to record these episodes. I have felt fear about this for my own children, for their friends. I feel fear about this, approaching it with our audience that we will hurt someone or that we will miss something and contribute to a feeling of being unseen. So I just want to lay it all out on the table and say this is a hard one. I am scared to do it. And I also think that we have to do it.  

Sarah [00:05:49] Well, as we start, here's something that made me less scared to begin the conversation-- and just I think the most important basic reminder-- which is let's just talk about the physiology of being a teenager. We've all been teenagers, and I think we all have memories of how intense it was. But I think it is worthwhile to really remind ourselves of what's going on. We all know the brain grows a tremendous amount over childhood. It reaches its largest size in early adolescence. I did not know that. That's when your brain gets as big as it's going to be. And then it starts pruning. I thought this was an interesting verb to use as I was reading about teenage brain development. It starts prunning. So it's going to start getting rid of a lot of the gray matter from childhood to make room for some gray matter in adult. It's going to start changing. It's a major renovation. This is exciting. We'll just throw this out. We're going to have Dr. Becky on the show, for all the Dr. Becky fans. Her book is so good and I love that she uses the analogy of a house that, like, we have this bottom floor of the house that runs our most basic functions: breathing, eating, all the stuff. And the top floor of the house is our higher order functions: logic, reasoning, impulse control. And that top floor is under construction. It is not built yet when you're in childhood and adolescence. And she said the parents are the stairs. We're carrying the tools up the staircase for them. Would you like a saw? How would you like some sand paper? How would you like this hammer and nails? And I think that is such a good metaphor to think about. Like, that part of the brain, that higher order, because that development happens from back to front of the brain, which I think is so fascinating. So it's going to start pruning and be pretty high order in the back, the stuff that just keeps your body going. But the front, the amygdala that controls emotions and impulses and instincts, that's last in line. We don't get to that part of the brain until our late twenties.  

Beth [00:07:48] And Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside, which is tremendous.  

Sarah [00:07:52] It's so good, guys.  

Beth [00:07:53] It's really, really, good.  

Sarah [00:07:54] So good.  

Beth [00:07:55] She continually talks about how most of what aggravates us in our kids is a function of dysregulation because they don't have the top of the house fully constructed. And that when they are disregulated, they really need us to step in and set some intense boundaries for them to help them through that regulation. So we're the stairs, but we're also like taking them very carefully up the stairs. And really trying to help them see that this is a structural thing, not just a free for all. I think many of us carry them up the stairs, but then say, "You go ahead, you got this. You make your life however you want." And what she's telling us is that however you want contributes to that dysregulation. That is even more terrifying. So that has been very, very, helpful to me.  

Sarah [00:08:52] Yeah, I was reading a part out loud to Nicholas where she says boundaries tell them what we're going to do. It doesn't say, "You seem disregulated. What do you want to do about it?" That's scary to them. And Nicholas was like, "Shut up with your logic, Dr. Becky .I don't want to hear that right now." And I think that that is so important to remember as we begin this conversation around teens, because what I want to say is we're going to start talking about what's happening in teens lives and outside factors like all these parenting, social media, high school. And I think it's really tempting to hear blame. To say, like, you're saying this is the reason or that it's all this outside stuff we have to control when really this is just really fertile ground for dysregulation. This type of brain development, this time in their lives, makes them very physiologically vulnerable to mental health challenges. They are more vulnerable to stress. They are more more vulnerable to all these factors that can disregulate a  human being. That just the way their brain is developing makes them fertile ground for all these outside factors to influence them.  

Beth [00:10:14] On the physiology point, much of the New York Times project about mental health has emphasized that puberty is happening earlier for kids, and that steadily over decades puberty has begun earlier and earlier, which is, I think, fascinating from an evolutionary perspective, given that we're waiting later and later to have children, that our bodies are kind of reversed on that point. But I don't mean to take us down that path.  

Sarah [00:10:39] I mean, I wish it was evolution. I think it might just be plastics, but go ahead.  

Beth [00:10:43] Yeah, I have a lot of questions about why that's happening. Anyway, I just want to chime in as the mother of a girl who started her period at age 10. And say that it really was helpful to me to see The New York Times and all the experts that they talk to, bringing this up as part of this physiological vulnerability. Because you talk about disregulated when you enter puberty and you see this in the graphs too. Like, all the graphs showing self-reported mental health issues, girls are way higher. And it's because I think girls are are entering puberty earlier. And so now you've got this person whose house has that top floor that is under construction and you're bringing a tornado to the house.  

Sarah [00:11:34] Yep.  

Beth [00:11:35] Several times a month with different parts of the cycle. And I'm realizing more and more as a mom that my understanding of that full cycle has not been as robust as I would like it to be. I didn't grow up talking about my period as anything other than once a month.  

Sarah [00:11:54] A physical thing.  

Beth [00:11:55] A physical thing that happens once a month instead of a thing that I'm in all the time. That that cycle is constantly working on me, and that it is really changing my perception of reality, my emotions, my ability to regulate those emotions. And so I just want to uplift that as a challenge that girls are facing right now that is, I think, different than they have faced in previous generations. Information has been really helpful for me as a mom and in trying to carry Jane up that part of the stairs. But it is very hard. I mean, she feels to me like a walking chemistry set right now where things are bubbling and this amount gets poured in and something really changes. And she is a thriving kid. So it's just a reminder that as we take in all this information, it's easy to look for one piece of it that really jumps out at you as like, well, this is what's wrong, but it's a lot.  

Sarah [00:13:00] Well, not for nothing. The environmental factors that are acting on kids and making them start puberty earlier don't stop once puberty has started.  

Beth [00:13:11] Yes. Yeah.  

Sarah [00:13:12] There are still environmental factors out there messing with our hormones and also messing with the maternal hormones that perhaps are going through perimenopause and menopause at the time these children are reaching adolescence. This is very poor design. I don't know who we talk to about this. It's bad timing and it's bad design for what it's worth. And those are all still out there like estrogen mirrors and all these-- not just to mention like caffeine, which we're going to get to my physiological concern next with regards to caffeine. Like, those are all still out there. It's not like they just start puberty earlier and then everything just levels out. All those things that act on your hormones are still out there in the environment. This is a podcast, but Beth it's just nodding. She's sitting over there nodding. 

Beth [00:14:02] It's just because I'm living it. It's hard for me to even capture in words how true that is in my very present experience of life right now. We had a situation this morning. Jane came downstairs all down in the dumps, no energy, didn't feel good. But we've talked about this enough that I said, "Hey, do you know what's going on?" And she said, "Yes, it's just my period." And I said, "Okay, so we know what our tools are that we bring to this. And we also know that it won't last forever." "Yeah, I know."  And we just make it through the day. But, man, two months ago, this would have been a fight to get her to school. And so we're just chipping away at it every day. And you're right, at the same time, things are not great in my body. I would say that my upstairs has had some chairs fall over recently.  

Sarah [00:14:50] We're also going through some renovations. We don't like it. Okay. So here's my physiological thing, that this is both a physiological reality for teens and a concern I have as far as outside factors. I have a friend who teaches in high school, and I've been pulling all my people who work and live with teenagers. She's been working in high school, I think 16 years or 10 years. She said, "I regularly poll the class and I say, 'Who in this room got less than 5 hours of sleep?' And almost every time every teenager in the room raises their hands." Okay, so just science-wise, 8.5 to 10 hours is how much sleep a teenager needs. Now I am arguably extreme when it comes to sleep in my household. I say extreme because I have trained my children so strongly with regards to sleep and the need for sleep and protect your sleep that they don't enjoy regular childhood activities like sleepover and sleepaway camp. That's on me. That's on me that my children come back from sleepaway camp and they're, like, they kept us up till 10:00. That's all my parenting. I accept responsibility for that. But, to me, the fact that they are now getting like half of what they need is huge. Because when you are trying to regulate, when you are trying to integrate what's happened through your day, the stress you've experienced, you cannot underestimate the role of sleep. When I am not getting sleep, I start to get anxiety attacks. It's just my brain is so intense. And if I do not have that time to sleep and my dreams are very intense. My brain is doing some stuff when I'm sleeping. I can tell you from my dreams. Last night I was dreaming about moles. It was weird, you guys. But that's what's happening. I just feel like my brain is literally, like, inside out. They're like, okay, we got some marbles we need to put over here. We might need to discard some marbles. And that's all happening when you're sleeping and if you're not sleeping, oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.  

Beth [00:16:50] Well, anything else that you have going on if you're tired, it's exacerbated. I had the best advice I ever got from a doctor. It was when I was talking about fibromyalgia that I have and how do I want to treat it? He said, "You've got to treat 8 hours of sleep like a prescription." That is how diligent and serious you must be about sleep. And most of the time I need more than 8 hours of sleep to really feel my best. Now, this is a challenge. My middle schooler has to be on the bus so early that she's up at six every day.  

Sarah [00:17:19] School start times make me want to burn it to the ground. And it makes me want to burn it to the ground.  

Beth [00:17:23] And it's dark when she wakes up. Like, there's a lot going on that makes this extremely challenging. Again, this is a judgment-free, blame-free kind of situation. We are all in this together with a whole bunch of factors working on it, but knowing that often the answer is they're tired I think is really helpful-- or part of it in some way.  

Sarah [00:17:42] Yeah, Like California's new law where they're going to move back all high school start times, I hope that is truly as California goes, so goes the nation. I emailed my superintendent about this about once a quarter and say, "Hey, did you know that the science says that this is terrible what we're doing to teenagers by making them wake up so early? Would you like higher test scores? Is that your goal as a superintendent? Because this is a great way to make it happen." And I know there are complicating factors. There are teenagers who take care of younger siblings, parent work schedules. That's all hard. I don't really want to hear it about sports. I know there have been a positive mental health benefits to sports, and I understand that and I'm ready to support sports; although, I just think that that is not a good enough reason to drag a teenager who circadian rhythm-- scientifically we know this; we're not debating it, this is not open for debate-- is so different out of bed at 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning. And my friend is a teacher. She said, I think what's happening is they are so scheduled-- which we're going to get to next. We're going to talk about some other outside factors. But she's, like, these are like AP kids. So they're really involved in school. They're going to extracurriculars, they're going to games, they're getting home late, they have a lot of homework. And then they're doing what we all do, which is like that revenge procrastination, right? They want to have some time on their phones to decompress and chill out. And so that's to like 11:00, 12:00, 1:00 in the morning, and then they're getting up and going to school at 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning. And then we see how we've ended up in this space.  

Beth [00:19:15] I am seeing more this year than I ever have with my two kids that that decompression time is essential. And I'm also realizing something weird in my reaction as a parent. Because I as a parent am sort of like too much TV is terrible. We can't have too much TV. TV is absolutely how I regrouped as a kid.  

Sarah [00:19:36] Oh, yeah.  

Beth [00:19:37] That was the only decompression I really understood as a kid.  

Sarah [00:19:40] I watched so much Mama's Family after school.  

Beth [00:19:43] And so if I think about if my seven-year-old comes in and it's like, boy, I just need a minute, am I really upset that she's watching Blue? I'm not. I got to let some of that go. And then I'll say, like, "Why don't you set a timer? How much time do you think you need?" "I think about 30 minutes." "Perfect. Set the timer, watch 30 minutes and then go outside and play." Fantastic. But that is totally about the era in which I was born, right? Nobody has ever said to me, your kids watch too much TV. It's just baked into my context and I've got to kind of step back and think, what am I trying to accomplish here?  

Sarah [00:20:22]  I had a friend talk about the other day her son was procrastinating doing some work, and it was because he was helping on social media talking to a friend through a breakup. She's like, "Do I really want to tell him that that's a terrible use of his time? I don't. I want him to be there for his friends." And so I think that that is what's so difficult about that. But I do think the school start times would really at least get us a little bit closer. But what we wanted to do first-- again, we are not done with the conversation. We are not implying that later start times or more sleep will sort the teen mental health crisis. We're just talking about that, some of the physiological realities. And up next, we're going to talk through some of those outside factors, some of the all the other issues that you guys wrote in and so lovingly and vulnerably shared your stories about.  

Beth [00:21:09] As we were preparing for this, Sarah, there was a quote from a young person in that New York Times project that really brought some things together for me. They said, "I probably would have been depressive in 2000 B.C. living in the Alps."  I think that there is just something genetic happening here to me that would always have happened. And I think the time in which I live exacerbates it. And I thought that was so wise. Because I struggle when we talk about these outside factors, because I do worry about adding layers of guilt or blame or judgment or a sense that this is an individualized problem or or even a sense that this is just a now problem when we understand that some part of the human population has always experienced some form of neurodivergence, some form of mental health challenge like that is part of being a person. So that quote from a young person saying, yeah, yes. And these external factors are really making it more challenging. Plus the physiology that you start with saying and this is a very vulnerable time in life, that really helped me see this more holistically.  

Sarah [00:22:23] Yeah, I think what always bothers me about that conversation is like we just don't know. Like, our understanding of mental health and genetics, come on you guys, we're just baby stepping out here. Like, we don't understand any of that. Our mental health, our understanding of mental health, and how it presents in the population and what roles, genetics, we're still out here debating nature versus nurture.  I just think that that sometimes it feels like people have that conversation as if we have complete knowledge. And I'm, like, we don't. We don't have complete knowledge. And I mean, look, so one of the first outside factors we were mentioning getting into in that previous conversation was social media. That's a huge component of this conversation. And even with something that we I think instinctually, anecdotally-- depending on the the studies you're looking at-- scientifically, understand as disruptive to teenagers. We don't quite understand the causation. In 2009, when smartphone usage among teenagers passed that 50% mark, you have a lot of like everybody pointing to that moment in time. Oh, well, it passed 50%. And then all of a sudden, these mental health challenges took off. But, I mean, that's a hard thing to pass. Like, is it that they were using their smartphones and the smartphones themselves, the social media, was causing the problem? Or is it that in using social media, it was replacing activities like being outside, like being in person, socially interacting. That was the problem? And I just don't think we know. Is it that it was taking the place of sleep? Like, we just don't know. Even though I'm such a hardcore sleep person, I'm kind of less inclined because I would stay up and play solitaire and listen to Mariah Carey. Like, if a teenager doesn't want to sleep, they're not going to sleep. It doesn't matter what tool is at their disposal. But I do think that there is something to the fact that once you hit adolescence and you are such a finely tuned social creature, social input becomes so important that I don't think it's hard to make the leap that the input of social media can have outsized effect.  

Beth [00:24:29] One hundred percent. And I think even the really positive aspects of having a phone and connecting with your friends that way. Like Jane does get a lot of encouragement and support from her group text also because that social aspect of life is so important and she is in this physiologically precarious time. As a parent, I need to step in and give her a break from that part of her brain, even when it's really positive. And so I will see her at night on that group chat. And I've been thinking about how to have a conversation with her that goes, like, I love your group chat, I'm thrilled for your group chat and we got to let the lights dim in that part of your brain before you sleep to get better sleep. Even though it's been great, there's nothing wrong with it.  

Sarah [00:25:15] Yeah, because that peer influence is so strong and we got breaks from it. It wasn't 24 hours when we were growing up. Like, you could call one at a time. I guess we did group phone calls where you could add lines. I think I had a line towards the end, but there's just three way. I think the only other person you could add was like one additional person.  

Beth [00:25:33] That was so fancy. My family had a party line for most of my childhood with my grandmother.  

Sarah [00:25:38] That's amazing.  

Beth [00:25:39] So she was on the phone. I couldn't be. Like, it was very restricted for me.  

Sarah [00:25:43] I love it. Because I think when when the dynamic changes because additional people are added, the opportunity for misunderstanding and drama are also increased. That happens in my adult group texts. So I can imagine that it happens in teenage group text. And so I don't think that it is the number one cause because I don't think there is a number one cause. But I think the role of technology is absolutely playing a part in this.  

Beth [00:26:15] And to your point about all that we don't know, I read an article this morning that said we don't really know the effect of the light from your phone. We're just at the earliest stages of first understanding anything about our own brains, and second, understanding the effect of this technology that we've created on top of it.  

Sarah [00:26:34] Well, because I think what's interesting is if you want to say, well, this is the point in time where usage surpassed 50%, and it just coincides so well with the mental health crisis, well, what also coincides really well is the increase in student participation in AP classes. It's kind of crazy. When I was doing research for this episode, from 1980 to 2016, there's a 95% increase of student participation in AP programs. So that's going to be a huge impact as far as workload, as far as testing intensity, as far as pressure. Then you add on that along the same period the price of college tuition is dramatically increasing, like almost doubling, then you have another source that you could sort of lay over this timeline and say, "Oh, dang, well, here's something else that was going that's really increasing the stress and the mental load on teenagers at the time that all these mental health challenges were increasing."  

Beth [00:27:34] And think about the message that gets delivered with those AP courses because it's not, like, wow, amazing, you have the skills and the maturity to be able to handle a challenge at this point in your life. It's like, well, thank God, because college is so expensive, we got to knock out as many credits as we can bear where they're free. And oh my gosh, you've got to do really well in these classes so that you can get scholarships to get into the best college. I mean, it is a positive social trend delivered in the most negative messaging possible.  

Sarah [00:28:05] Yeah. The pressure for college admissions, which I think really is a huge part of this; although, I mean, if you're having mental health challenges-- we heard from a lot of people who have mental health challenges in middle school. And I cannot believe that lyou're already feeling that college pressure. Although, I definitely had a conversation about it as Griffin entered eighth grade about how to start thinking about this. And he's overtaken a class at the high school every morning in eighth grade. It's an AP course, but I think that-- you know the word that I hear so many people describe it as-- it's just a game. It's a game. It's a way to make sure you look the best by your junior year and to weight the grades and to do all this. And so it's like what a intense message to send a teenagers that in order to be a success in life, you have to start playing this game at 13 years old so that you can get the outcome you want. I mean, that's tough. And I don't think there's one person to blame for that. Again, I don't think this is parenting or academia. I mean, I'm willing to lay the the blame for increased tuition at a couple of people's feet. But it's just this confluence. It's like this river we all got swept up in.  

Beth [00:29:23] There was a comment in response to our episode about dress codes that I've been sitting. And it was from a teacher saying, "I just want to bring up the fact that in a lot of discussion about dress codes, someone will compare school to work and they'll say, like, school is your job as a child. You are going to work, so you need to dress appropriately for that." And and this teacher was saying you cannot understand how hollow that rings with kids and how disingenuous they feel it is and how insulting they feel it is because they understand that school is something different for them than work. And as I've been reading Dr. Becky's book and reading all of the information to prepare for this episode, developmentally, it seems appropriate to me that school is something different than work and they have to see it differently. And then when you add in that layer of this is not work, we don't really have an analogy for it. It's just school and that is unique and different. But also you're playing this game to try to get you to the next step. No wonder we're all struggling with how to even have a coherent conversation about that. It's like what Dr. Becky says, that we're leaving the kids to figure it out alone instead of stepping in for them and being able to really put it in a context. Here's what you need. Jane was all upset this morning, too, about a friend who got detention. She was talking about detention like it's the worst thing that could ever happen. In the game, it is. In the game, that sounds terrible. In life, you get detention, you serve your time and you move on. We never have to talk about it again, right? You screw up, you deal with the consequence of that. Whether that's a wise consequence or not, we could have a whole other discussion-- but whatever. You deal with it, and then you move on. I struggle to kind of help her navigate this framework where she's getting all these contradictory messages from the game, from her peers, from us about what success in school looks like.  

Sarah [00:31:18] Well, and I thought it was so interesting we found this survey that was very positive. It was talking about that educators are an incredibly positive source of mental support in kids lives. Like, really, really positive that a lot of kids talk to their teachers when they feel like they can't talk to anybody else. And you hear that mental load in among the teachers, among high school and middle school teachers of what they're carrying and what they understand about these kids. And it was so interesting to me, though, because when they pulled the teachers and then they pulled the parents about what were some of the causes of this mental health crisis, they were citing different causes. The teachers were citing family dynamics. The parents were citing increased academic pressure. And I thought, well, isn't that interesting that we're all-- but it makes sense, right? You're looking out. You're looking at what did they come in complaining to me about? Well, of course, at school, they're going to complain about parents and at home they're going to complain about school. And so I thought like, oh, that's so interesting. But, look, this is hard. It's all right. Just take a deep breath. I don't think we can talk about a teen mental health crisis and not talk about parenting. I am not talking about your parenting. I am not talking about individual parenting choices because I believe you. One listener emailed us and said that it is an anguished like no other when your child is suffering, when your teenager is suffering. And I believe that and I think every parent out there who can hear my voice, who has been struggling with this, is doing the best they can. Like, I feel your sorrow. I feel your effort. I know you are doing the absolute best you can for your child. And so I'm not talking about individual choices. I am talking about parenting as a societal institution, which to me is different. How do we talk about parents? How do we talk about parenting teens? How do we support parents of teens? What are our cultural ideas around that? And that, I think, is very problematic.  

Beth [00:33:39] So I had a light bulb moment thinking about this, and it was about what my generational messages were. So you and I are the elder millennials, right? We're the oldest you can be and still be a millennial. I think that because of that and because we're in Kentucky, where the cost of living is lower, where pre-Internet, which is how we lived these years of our lives-- Kentucky was always a little bit behind every other trend-- I think that my growing up was much more Gen X than Millennial. And that is significant to me in thinking about what kind of messages my kids are getting about life. Because what I have absorbed is that the baby boomer generation had this framework of, well, you work really hard at a "good job"-- and there are a variety of meanings for that, but most of them that I absorbed involve going to college. And then you're going to own a house and you're going to build for retirement and you're going to get to retire and take vacations and enjoy the fruits of a life lived with good planning and hard work. And then Gen X kind of takes both the benefits and the burdens of that. There are some real positives. There are some real downsides. A lot of us had parents who worked way too hard, created physical health issues because they worked so hard. And so we kind of took the benefits and the burdens of that. And then along come the millennials who are parenting the kids we're talking about now.  And the millennial story that their kids are learning is so dramatically different from the story that I learned. The millennial story is you can crush yourself working hard and still nothing work out. And that retirement you say it can disappear and seem like it's completely impossible as a goal. And homeownership feels impossible, or at least like something you can't have until much later in life. And just all of the optimism while it came with a lot of pressure that I absorbed about what adulthood could be, I feel like I'm still filtering down those messages about "You got to work really hard and plan smart. And these are the goals. You want to be a person with a good job and a home that you own and all this agency over your own life running," up against what the landscape has become for the millennial generation. And so I get that just the generational story does not convey the kind of hope and optimism that I received as a kid.  

Sarah [00:36:15] Well, and I just think when I consider what are our cultural messages? What is our societal approach to raising teenagers? Well, for one thing, we invented teenagers. Now, I think there is a physiological reality to adolescence. But we made that term of life up in the 20th century. You didn't go to high school in college. You got married at like 14, 15, 16 and started having kids. So I think that we're new at this. That's the first thing. We're just making this up. We're new at this. We've sort of created this way of being and we're we're working it out. And a lot of that messaging about what does it mean to parent a teenager comes from our own parents. And the message I received from my mother was very clear, which is people think teenagers are grown and they're not. And you've probably heard me articulate that on the show before around some criminal justice issues. People think teenagers are adults. People think they're grown. And I don't mean like they think they're mature and smart, but it's like there's a sense of like, what are you going to do? And the message I received from my mother very strongly that I take into my own parenting approaches a hell of a lot. I'm going to do a hell of a lot. My mom's pretty hard edged. Nicholas' mother who was a mother of five, four boys and a girl, was also hard edged. There's a sense of, like, I'm a be up in your business. That's what I'm going to do. But I don't think that that's the cultural messages that we receive around teenagers. I feel like the cultural message is-- and Dr. Becky names this.  

[00:37:59] I think this is some of the intensive parenting that we've brought to all ages, which is we need to do everything we can to make them happy. Well, a teenager's unhappy with boundaries, but actually all kids, for what it's worth, are pretty unhappy in the immediate term with boundaries. But those boundaries are key to the regulation. And I think what we don't do a good job of supporting parents. How are you supposed to do the hard work of parenting without any societal support? If you're struggling with your own stress about that retirement fund and about how to afford a house, and also just not being given the all tools in a society to regulate your own emotions because of factors that we could list for the next hour and a half on the show, then you're supposed to bring that to an incredibly demanding phase of life. Like an adolescent, their brains are changing at the rate of like toddlers. We all know how I feel about toddlers. They are not my favorite because it's so intense. It's such an intense thing. And so if you are depleted and you're struggling with your own college loans or a boss that's quiet firing people. We didn't even get to that. Like all these components, stress about climate change, a lack of support when it comes to maybe childcare for your younger kids. Like, just all these factors. And then you're, like, oh, by the way, be this emotional support and regulation for a 16-year-old who can really make your life miserable if they're miserable. Like, oh, my God, what are we doing?  

Beth [00:39:37] Yeah, it's almost harder than thinking they're grown and they're not. It's like they are grown one minute, and then the next minute they're tiny again, and then there's a lot of in-between. We had this conversation in the car the other day, Jane and I did, and I just said, "Hey, sometimes I'm not sure what approach to take because you are, in one moment, as competent as an adult at a whole variety of things. And then the next moment, you're a lot more like your sister in the way you're reacting to something. And your mostly somewhere in between." And all that's correct. You're not doing anything wrong. That is just what your brain is up to right now. And I've never done this before. I don't know a brain doing this except for my own experience. And I was in that so much I couldn't see what would be helpful. So if I'm approaching you like I'm treating you like you're too old or you're too young, it's probably because I am. Because I'm trying to figure out where you are in any given moment.  

Sarah [00:40:34] Well, think about it this way, too. We give a certain type of support when you are dealing with toddlers. You can find anything and everything. Every book at your pediatrician is an enormous amount of support for those challenges. Potty training, feeding, sleep training, discipline, behavior-- although Dr. Becky has some suggestions when it comes to that. So there's a structure. I don't think it's good enough. I think that still parents of young kids are left out too dry in so many ways. But there is some energy around parenting, toddlers and babies in the same way I feel like there is not that type of energy. I think some of the most positive developments are just like Instagram influencers. My feed is filled with like the most amazing Instagram people who talk about teens. And, honestly, it's because I reached out to our listeners and said, "Okay, parents of teens, who's out there helping? Who's out there supporting and giving good advice and helpful input?" And they sent me this amazing list which we will share in the shownotes. And so I feel like, okay, this is where this-- there is energy out there. But I don't think we even as a culture help people look for that, you know what I mean? Again, it's just like there's not even the energy to say this is an important phase of parenting. It's an intense pace phase of parenting. Here are the supports you are going to need to get through it. I don't even feel like we do that.  

Beth [00:42:03] Well, how would we? Because we treat parenting like everyone just immediately knows how to do it. Like it's instinctive. And like if you need a book, you're doing something wrong. And at the same time, being able to invest in your own education about parenting is a matter of tremendous privilege.  

Sarah [00:42:22] Yeah.  

Beth [00:42:23] Being able to do intensive parenting is a matter of tremendous privilege. I have a feed like that as well. I paid for parent coaching. It was tremendously valuable to me. I could see myself doing it again, but I look at all the factors that enable that. Even the factors that enable me to sit with my daughter on our porch before the bus comes in the morning, it's just layers of luxury in my life that permit that. And that's a tragedy that I don't know how to address.  

Sarah [00:42:51] Yeah, it should not be a luxury.  

Beth [00:42:52] Outrageous. Yeah.  

Sarah [00:42:53] It should not be a luxury.  

Beth [00:42:55] It's how I feel about a Doula. When I had a birthing doula, I thought this should be available to everybody. This is so important. And in addition to that birthing doula, everybody should have the kind of community support that we used to give around birth. But you need that the whole way in different forms, and we're all just kind of trying to patch it together the best that we can.  

Sarah [00:43:17] Well, because here's what we've ended up. So let's talk about this last big component or to last big components of this, which is what people do end up going to in these moments of crisis, is our health care system, which is very poorly suited to this moment. And we heard this over and over again from all of you. So let's say you're at a crisis moment because of a million different things and you have to end up at the emergency room. Or someone hears your child talking about self-harm or suicide, and then the law enforcement gets called in. And so you have these two very intense institutions coming to play at a moment of crisis. I mean, just the fact that people feel like they have to go to the emergency room for this breaks my heart. Because the emergency room is not equipped for this. You're going to get admitted. Maybe, or what we're dealing with right now is just a complete lack of beds and resources. Because either a pediatricians-- I heard a lot of pediatricians talk about like I didn't get training for this. There are some good reporting on NPR about how some pediatricians are pulling the child therapist into their office. But it's difficult to find. And those therapists are burned out because there's a shortage of them. And we have this crisis and they are overworked and underpaid and under supported. And so the health care system as an institution to deal with this is just a mess. A mess.  

Beth [00:44:53] And ending up in the health care system is a vastly superior option to ending up in the criminal system, which is kind of the other route that a lot of people end up in when they have crises going on that are untreated. It's brutal. And I am so glad that you brought up therapist burnout because I think it is such a struggle right now in order to keep programs that provide therapy to children sustainable. It's all about billing, which means that a therapist is monitored as though they were making widgets in a factory instead of dealing with human crises that require them to take a beat before they're able to be present for someone else. I mean, it is just a mess all the way around. And even in that mess, there are are people who are doing extraordinary work. So you don't ever want to dissuade anyone from going into the system because hopefully it will serve you.  And it does it. There is a valiant effort going on and a successful effort. And it also is like it's just happening in a really non-ideal context.  

Sarah [00:46:02] Yeah. And that's not even talking about medication. That's not even talking about medications often not tested on teens that we don't quite understand, particularly when you add multiple medications and you're dealing with side effects or medications that make you sick, and an ever changing hormonal balance and brain development like that is just-- what a confluence of complication and intensity in a moment where what we're saying is they're disregulated because of complication and intensity. That's just so impossibly hard.  

Beth [00:46:43] I think that this is like the discussion we were having about public health in relation to infectious disease recently, where we were citing Doctor Sanjay Gupta's work about the cavarly. That in in American health care, often we wait for people to have a physiological crisis and then we have all the tools. We've got the specialists, we've got the technology, we've got the medications, we're ready and we can work seeming miracles in some of those crisis moments. That approach just doesn't work as well on the mental health side. And I think many of us, instead of bringing the cavalry, because this area has for so long been so stigmatized and so private and left to individuals to manage, we as adults are bringing a freak out to a moment  when you have to still see it in that house model as disregulation and you need to be regulated. I've learned so much. Very recently, two different moms have told me stories of mental health crises with their teenagers. One of the teenagers lived and one did not. Both of these moms talked me through their stories in such straightforward terms. There was no drama about it whatsoever, and you could tell that they had really worked on themselves to be that regulated adult in the midst of this crisis, to be that-- Dr. Becky's word sturdy-- to be that sturdy force that isn't freaking out, that can handle this crisis in you and can make it through. Individuals are doing the work to get there, but our systems don't. Our systems still react like this is an emergency. It's never happened before. And we end up providing all this help that sometimes is not helpful.  

Sarah [00:48:31] Yeah. I think sometimes the regulation is the therapist. Sometimes the regulation is medication. But in an attempt to try to find that source of regulation, some of the stories that people emailed us about what happened when they got institutionalized are horrifying. And that's bigger than just teenagers. The loss of agency once you're inside an institution is something we've tried to address with mixed results-- that's being generous inside the United States-- when we still need institutions. And sometimes the issue is that there's not enough. So I will say that this piece I actually I am holding a lot of hope for our mental health institutions right now because the piece of legislation that we passed for the purpose of gun control, I don't know if it's going to do anything for gun control, but I do know that it is a once in a lifetime amount of investment in our mental health infrastructure. Now, we're not going to see the soon, but I think it is going to be a game changer the amount of money and infrastructure we are going to put into our mental health, our citizens, teenagers and otherwise. This is the one space where I think the wheels are starting to turn and they will turn way too slowly, but they are starting to turn. And I am enormously hopeful about that.  

Beth [00:49:51] That's how I feel about 988 as well. To have this hotline that's available for anything. You don't have to figure out what's going on to decide to use it. You just call. And is it understaffed? Yes. Always, nothing is going to be perfect.  

Sarah [00:50:07] Right now. It's understaffed and underfunded right now.   

Beth [00:50:10] That's right. And I think the more that it's used, the more transformative potential it has. And to separate this from the criminal system, to have a place besides 911 to call, I think is really, really, positive. So I agree. I also find hope in looking at those numbers about the teen public health problems of our generation. There was a concerted focus on teen pregnancy, on drunk driving, and it's not that those still exist and are just eclipsed by mental health, it's that those have decreased dramatically. So once we identify it and start to work on it, we make progress. And I think that's happening around this. Amanda Mull has a great piece in The Atlantic, too, that says teens may be going through mental health issues, but every survey shows that they know that and they know they're not alone in it. And that's really powerful.  

Sarah [00:51:03] Well, and I thought that was really powerful to hear one of The New York Times interview as I was listening to the the guy say, like, well, but they're going to learn these tools. Think about what this will be like to have an entire generation who have sometimes trial by fire have learned emotional regulation, have learned stress management, have learned like, oh, I need to advocate for systemic changes. They're going to be unstoppable in a lot of ways because that's what we're trying to teach them, right? Is that hard things make you stronger. Hard things when supported-- I'm not trying to support some sort of toxic positivity. I think struggle and suffering in the presence of community and connection, not just as individual force of will, can transform people. And so I've definitely experienced that in my own life. And I think that that could be and will be for many people the outcome of that. But the community and the connection and the support part, especially when it comes to the health care. We're not there yet.  

Beth [00:52:14] And I have to uplift here social and emotional learning. Social emotional learning is often talked about as SEL, and it has become a punching bag alongside critical race theory for people criticizing what's going on in schools and sort of the woke agenda. I'm telling you that when you see what the social emotional learning curriculum actually looks like, and what students experience and that the effect over time, it is so overwhelmingly positive and has given my kids a much richer vocabulary to talk about. Not just mental health, but like what is happening among people. It gives them more empathy for their peers, for themselves, for their teachers. And I think as that becomes more baked in to a generation of people, it is going to be a big deal just to have folks walking around in the workplace thinking, oh, I think I'm on blue today. I'm kind of feeling down. I'm kind of feeling stressed. I have some awareness of what's going on with me and that's going to affect how I approach this day. That's really big and we really need it.  

Sarah [00:53:20] Can we talk about the work agenda really quickly?  

Beth [00:53:23] It's our podcast.  

Sarah [00:53:24] It's very scary to me. But here's what I will have to say about the work agenda and teens. I don't think anybody would debate that we are going through a really transformational time as a society with regards to our understanding of gender. I think that we are having a conversation about that. And that's intense. That's intense for me as an adult. And so I would imagine that it's pretty intense for teenagers. And I think all the time about how you say we tend to overcorrect as a society. And what I see a lot with the teenagers in my life, extended family, friends, circles, is that this conversation around gender and identity is another source of enormous pressure in teenagers lives. Griffin and I had this conversation. He said, "Why shouldn't somebody just be able to pick what they're called?" And I said, "Because for most of human history, we didn't. And it seems like a lot of pressure at 13 to decide what you want to be called." I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying I want to make it illegal. I'm just saying the pressure I felt to pick my children's names was enormous. And I was an adult. And I had that prefrontal cortex firing on all cylinders, sort of. And so, to me, I think that when it comes to issues of gender and identity and sexuality and all these things, it's not that I want to shut them down. Make no mistake, we were in desperate need of correction. But I do wonder if that we need to remember that there has to be a sturdiness. There has to be some regulation. There has to be this sense of you don't have to figure everything out right now. No one's asking you to do that. And even the figuring it out, I think changing and going back, that can feel stressful. Like an additional source of pressure when we've just identified all these other sources of pressure. Again, I'm not advocating any dramatic changes or like shutting it down or telling people what they can and cannot do. I just think that's important. I just think it's important to keep in mind and just to be aware of.  

Beth [00:55:49] It feels to me a little bit like the conversation about kids and activities. We did an episode about how a lot of kids are overscheduled. We just talked about sleep. Activities are often a source of everybody getting into bed really late and drag it out the next day pretty exhausted and doing it all over again. And when we don't have enough activities around here, no one is their best selves. It is important for kids and for Chad and I to have things that we're doing where we're involved with other people, working toward common purpose, mastering some skills, developing other aspects of our identities. I don't know where the Goldilocks place is. I know that on the nights in my house when we have too many things going on for us to eat dinner together as a family, there is more fighting. There are shorter tempers. There is generally a malaise that just sets over us. I also know that if the only thing we have to do is to eat dinner together, that doesn't work. And I feel that way about the conversation about gender and identity. I have not figured out the Goldilocks spot. I try with Jane, who talks about this quite a bit because of her peers, to always say, I just am so glad that you love and support whomever we're talking about. And I love that about you. And I love that you care about this and that you're such a good listener. Look at all the things you've told me. Look at all these details you remember. You are such a good listener, and I want you to know that I'll be a good listener for you if you're ready to talk about anything. And also that you have so much time, you don't have to figure anything out right now. You have so much time. And that's all I know to do right now, because this is a frontier that, again, I've not done this before and I find it really challenging.  

Sarah [00:57:30] Well, think about what you just named, even in the exercise with their peers, they're building enormous empathy. We both got that feedback from Griffin and Jane being on the podcast. What empathetic kids. Yes. And empathy is an enormous emotional lift, right? That is an enormous-- and I'm not advocating for less empathy, but that's a lot. It's a lot to put yourself in the shoes of another 13-year-old when you're 13. That's a big, hard thing. It's hard for me. That's why I cry all the time on the podcast, because empathy is intense. It's an intense feeling. And we're teaching them to be empathetic and to put themselves in the shoes of their peers. And also that's hard. What we're asking them to do is not just good, but it's also hard. And I mean, that's it, right? That's what we're asking teenagers to do, is to learn to grow up and be mature. And it's hard. And we've talked for an hour and we haven't even gotten to Covid yet. I mean, what is happening.  

Beth [00:58:44] How do I say, wow, you've exercised a lot of empathy. What does your rest look like from that now? Because it's not just sleep, it's rest and restoration. My vision of that might be practicing your violin today, and that might very much not be Jane's vision. Again, I just find myself saying, "I'm just sitting in it with you because I don't know." I don't have any special answers here.  

Sarah [00:59:12] Well, what I always try to tell Griffin too is, like, hey, we're on the same team. That's what I want us to understand.  

Beth [00:59:18] I am for you.  

Sarah [00:59:19] I am for you. You might be advocating for a different play here, but we are on the same team. And I think with all this conversation now really enlightened why COVID accelerated this. Because if you are an adult and COVID gave you a break from the status quo, an identity that was wearing on you, it gave you a moment to go, ooh, what do I want to do different? I needed a break from this adult identity because I've built it, and it's sturdy. And I needed a moment to think. I needed a moment to think, wait, do I want to do this job? Do I want to be married to this person? Do I want to live here? That could be-- and I think for many, many, people during COVID was-- if not an empowering moment, a moment. But if you're a teenager and that identity is fragile, and your identity is built around your performance at school, or your presence on a team, or your identity as a friend who sees friends often, and then that's shaken, well, that's a whole different ballgame, right? That's a different moment. That's not an empowering moment. That's a terrifying moment because it took me decades of my life to realize that the roles I played were not my identity. And still, it's something that I have to remind myself of often. But as a teenager, like, that's an important part of your development. Like you have to start playing those roles to figure out who you are. And so you don't have the experience to say, well, I'm not just the girl who gets good grades. And I'm not just the guy who plays on the team. You don't have any of those life experiences. So when COVID disrupted all of that, I'm sure it felt like the ground was falling out from underneath your feet.  

Beth [01:01:03] I don't see a lot of adults that I look at and think, wow, your coping skills during COVID were amazing. I mean, it was very hard to be sturdy for a good two years as a full informed adult with a lot of skills. We can't. 

Sarah [01:01:13] Because we can't be sturdy all the time. PSA. Take the moment. Sturdy is not always the goal, and I think that's what's so terrifying. But we're not taught that. We're taught that's terrifying.  

Beth [01:01:25] I'm guilty of thinking that the goal is happiness. I really have over the past couple of years gone from thinking that the goal is happiness to the goal is thinking, I can be okay no matter what's going on. And I've tried to bring that into a lot of our discussions. We were talking about wildfires the other day and Jane said, "It just seems like the world is like the worst it's ever been." And I put my hand on her and I said, "There are a lot of big things going on. And also, we used to burn women alive because we thought they were witches." And she goes, "That is a good point, mom." It's like there has always been and there will always be hard things, but it's not the worst it's ever been. And it's not hopeless and lots of wonderful things are still going on and you can be okay even in the midst of the hard things. And that is just the message I keep trying to get. So when they're mad at me, I can say, like, you're not happy with me right now, but you're okay and you got to learn to be okay in the midst of things that you're unhappy with. And I have not modeled that perfectly during COVID, for sure. And so we all got to work on that together. That resilience is the challenge.  

Sarah [01:02:38] Listen, I will say this. Let me just take this moment, because my mom listens to the podcast and say Lisa is an expert copper. If nothing else, that's the message I got throughout my entire teenage years. It's going to be okay. Nothing is something we can't handle. There is nothing happening right now that we can't figure out. It's going to be okay. And, look, that was a source of conflict for us because I was so political. And what I wanted her to say was, no, it's not okay. We better go do something about this. And I see that playing out to the minute with me and Griffin right now where he'll want me to say, you're right, it's terrible. And I'll say it's not. It's more complicated than that. It's not that simple. It's not that simple that it's terrible. Lord in heaven, that child got in my face about the Queen Diane and use the word Tory propaganda. And I thought I was going to have to leave the room. But it's so clear to me what a gift my mother gave me. Because that's what I learned from my mother and my grandmother, which is we are not a fearful people and we are together and we will get through it. And it is not as bad as you think it is right now. And that's hard because you want to affirm feelings. And I think there were times where I felt I wasn't being affirmed in my feelings. But I think that coping, that this is how we handle hard things was such a gift. And, listen, Lisa could teach a class on teenagers. She really could. She got all of that. She got the sex part right. She got the alcohol and drugs part right. Now I was also just a goody two shoes. So [Inaudible]. I'm out here just trying to get good grades. But I received that message in my teenage years. That's what I heard from her, is that no, it's okay. It's going to be okay. We'll figure it out. We might not know the answer right now, but we'll figure it out.  

Beth [01:04:26] I think my parents are quite different from Lisa. They were excellent at giving me a sense that things are okay in the long run. That right now might not be okay, but in the long run we're okay.  And a lot of it from them came from a sense of faith. But we have faith in a bigger picture and it came from being on a farm. This season was bad. Next season will be better. We'll have to see. We'll have to see. And life throws you a lot, but in the long run are okay. And we didn't get to Covid much. We didn't get to trauma at all, or the impact of racism, or poverty, or all of these factors that exacerbate and that change the complete complexion of everything that we just talked about. So there is a lot here, and I want you to know that we're not unaware of those other factors. We wanted to start with something that feels as close to general as we can. Again, recognizing that everyone is living in the specifics and the specifics are are much harder than [Crosstalk].  

Sarah [01:05:31] Impossibly hard. We didn't want to end the show with impossibly hard. So up next for outside politics, we're going to share some of the positivity coming from the teens and parents of teens that we received in our inboxes. Beth, you have a positive teen story you want to start with.  

Beth [01:06:01] My seven year old, Ellen, auditioned to be in our local high school's production of The Sound of Music, and she received the part of Gretl and has never been as excited about anything in her entire life.  

Sarah [01:06:11] Beth. Beth, is it just Ellen that's excited?  

Beth [01:06:14] It's not just Ellen. I've waited my whole life to be a stage mom. Here I am so pleased. And this is really the positive aspect of activities. It is intense. Her practice schedule is intense. It is a ton of responsibility for her. But you see her maturing at an exponential rate compared to before she was involved in this. But what I wanted to share today is that it is a little bit unnerving as the mom of a seven-year old to say, go off to practice with high schoolers without me there. Because it's a closed practice, I'm not allowed to hang out and watch, which is also a gift, but a little unnerving. I cannot say enough about how these students are treating my seven-year-old. She saw some of them at Starbucks the other day. And across Starbucks, you hear her little voice yell. "There's Liesel!" I mean, she's just so pleased. And then they're very kind to her. In that interaction, during a parent meeting at the program, a young woman came in to me and whispered in my ear, "You're Ellen's mom, right? Can I take her to the playground across the parking lot?" And they're wonderful. Ellen told me about that girl, "She thinks that I am so cool and so fun. And, Mom, she means it." I mean, they're just building her up a,nd also allowing her to be mature. They're not treating her like the tiny one. They talk about her as our friend Ellen. It's such a gift. And again, I believe that social emotional learning has a ton to do with this. The intelligence and empathy and kindness of these teens is remarkable.  

Sarah [01:08:00] I will say this, I think I just had an aha moment. The thing that bugs me about toddlers, I like toddlers when they act like babies and stop trying to act like grownups. But I think teens really shine when they step into that maturity in a beautiful way. I mean, when you see a teenager, you can just watch them. It's like they expand. It's like they literally just like expand by about an inch or two when they realize like, oh, this is where I'm supposed to be. This feels good. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. And it can be an activity. It can be a moment of kindness. Amy wrote in and said that their high school principal called to say she saw footage of her freshman in the cafeteria stepping between a bully and another student. I mean, those moments where you can just see them find their footing, it's so beautiful, just the most beautiful thing.  

Beth [01:09:00] Jennifer told us that in her small Tennessee town, her son's middle school voted in a homecoming queen, who is not gender conforming and wore a suit to homecoming. She said, "We truly never expected to see it. This generation is so open to difference, even when some of their parents are very, very, conservative." And she finds a lot of hope in that. And I definitely see that here. That any type of difference-- I think my kids are especially attuned to disability in a way that I never was as a kid, and I find that extremely helpful. So I'm right there with Jennifer in feeling a lot of optimism in that way.  

Sarah [01:09:39] Griffin it's just like he has sections of his brain I don't have when it comes to allowing for human difference. Honestly, I think that I for a lot of different reasons, was just taught taught to sort, just taught to sort. I think our brains want to do it. Maybe that's what it is they do. They just do it in a totally different way. He just uses they for everybody. Like, that's just the pronoun he uses. Does it still stress me out because of the plural situation that I really need somebody linguistically to solve? That would be great. Yes. But it's like he does sort, but he just does it differently than I was taught to sort. His brain's doing those exercises just in a completely different way.  

Beth [01:10:21] We also read an article from Boise, Idaho, about an 18-year-old who got elected to the school board.  

Sarah [01:10:27] Yes, please.  

Beth [01:10:28] I love that. We have a student representative on our school board. And every time I see her up there at a meeting, I just am thrilled with our district for having that position. I always think maybe we need more of this, maybe they should be like four. But, again, when you see a students step into that maturity and to the wisdom that they can bring to a position like that, it is a beautiful thing. I totally agree with you about even their physiology changing. Because Jane looks taller and more settled and more mature when she comes home from babysitting every single time. Every single time. It is extraordinary to witness.  

Sarah [01:11:05] Yeah.  I'm just thinking about this article I just read about how old our government. It's truly shocking some of these charts about how old Congress is and how old some of our leaders are. And I wonder if it's not a reflection. I mean, I think some of it is a reflection that we're just living longer. It doesn't really feel right to put the 1800s on those charts-- but whatever. This intensive parenting that we've been shifting to over the past several decades, I wonder if there's just this sense of, like, we understand their prefrontal cortex is not developed till their late twenties. And so we just can't them lead. We can't let them step into those moments because sometimes they're too intense and sometimes they're not emotionally regulated enough. And it's a tightrope that I think is really, really, hard. And I think that's why what I want people to take away from this beginning conversation is we're not on that tightrope as individuals. All these individual choices that feel like choices, really aren't. And there's all these other factors at play, all these other headwinds blowing us in these different directions on the tightrope. As long as we can see that we're in it together, that we're all being blown by these headwinds, including our teenagers, then I think we'll start taking positive steps and in a better direction. AndI think we already are.  

Beth [01:12:26] Yeah. I think, again, that's why grace is the word because sometimes together is all we have. That's how I feel every time something just horrible that takes my breath away happens. Just remember, we're not alone here even though it can be extremely lonely. And, again, a generalized awareness is something does not make up for the specific experience of living in it. And even when you are surrounded and supported by the best people who have your back in every way, this can be a very lonely road to walk. And I hope that the more, the larger we all of us talk about this and find resources and develop new systems and invest money and continue to work on ourselves, the less lonely that journey will become.  

Sarah [01:13:11] Again, if something we've said today during this episode has made you feel lonely or frustrated, email us. For one, writing it down will make you feel better. And for two, we want to hear. We know we missed stuff. We want to hear from all of you how this landed, what we missed, what you think is important. This will not be the last conversation we have about this, but we can't contain it in one episode and we can't wait to hear from you.  

[01:13:38] Before we wrap this episode, we did want to say that we are heading to Oklahoma City at the end of this month. We're going to be talking to the Junior League there on Thursday, September 29th at 6 p.m., and it's open to the public. So if you live in Oklahoma City, tickets are $10. We'll put the information in the show notes. Come join us. And with that, thank you for joining us for this episode. We appreciate your time and your energy and your grace. And we will be back in your ears on Tuesday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

Beth [01:14:13] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [01:14:18] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [01:14:24] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

[01:14:30] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sara Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Koufman. Molly Kohrs.  

[01:14:47] The Kriebs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karen True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Valleli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [01:15:05] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  

Alise Napp8 Comments