Queen Elizabeth II and the Long End of Empires

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Ukraine Regains Lost Territory from Russia

  • The Death of Queen Elizabeth II

  • Outside Politics: Snacking Cake

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EPISODE RESOURCES

UKRAINE REGAINS LOST TERRITORY FROM RUSSIA

QUEEN ELIZABETH II

Snacking Cakes by Yossy Arefi (affiliate link)

Pantsuit Politics Speaking Events

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:26] Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. Today, we are going to think globally, beginning in Ukraine, where we had a real shift in the dynamics over the weekend. Then we're going to talk about the death of Queen Elizabeth II and how it reverberated around the world and what we learned from a lot of the conversation around her death last week. I hope that's where we can add something new to a conversation that's unfolding in lots of places. And then outside of politics, we're just going to have a delightful discussion about snacking cake. And I recommend that you stay all the way to the end to hear.  

Sarah [00:00:58] Yeah. If you don't know what snacking cake is, you're missing out. Before we begin, we're starting to work on our calendar for 2023 because we're sort of in the fall. It's going to be following Thanksgiving and Christmas in approximately 15 minutes. One of our favorite things to do that we haven't been able to do much for the past couple of years is speak live and in person to groups about communication. We love spending time with student groups or businesses or organizations, and every time we're out in the world, we learn something new that makes this podcast better and we hope to do real good for the people that we're meeting with. So we can't do canned presentations. That's not who we are. We really try to understand the needs and goals of the groups that bring us in. And we have eight spots in 2023 for speaking. So if you are interested in learning more, if you're interested in having us come and do a very personalized, very adapted presentation for your group or your organization or your college, please reach out to Alise at Alise@pantsuitpolitics.com. And again, it's A-l-i-s-e y'all, just so you know. I'll spell it again like we do in our advertisements. So if you are interested in having us come speak, reach out to Alise.  

Beth [00:02:08] Up next, we are going to talk about what's unfolding in Ukraine. The last time we talked about Ukraine here, we described what most observers believed would be a stalemate situation. That dynamic changed pretty dramatically over the weekend as Ukraine launched a counter-offensive. Now, we have known for a while that a counter-offensive was being planned. There was lots of information circulating about it, but it seems that that information was very carefully managed in its presentation to the world, and particularly in its presentation to Russia. And what Ukraine ended up doing, just vastly changed the board here and made huge advances in the Kharkiv region, and according to the British military, took Russian forces completely by surprise to the point that Russian forces were like just laying down their arms and stealing a bike and clothes from local citizens and getting out of there as quickly as they could. It is a big shake up in the momentum of this conflict.  

Sarah [00:03:22] Meanwhile, in Moscow, they were throwing a big old party for their 850th birthday, which was a bold choice. That's a bold choice to throw a big, expensive party while you have a war going on. I know you don't want people to know it's a war, but I think at this point it's difficult to hide. I thought the New York Times coverage of the military, pro-Russian bloggers who were criticizing Putin for throwing this party, ignoring the needs, really putting the Russian soldiers in an impossible position to the point where they're just-- I mean, when you are taking a bike to exit a war, I don't even know what's going on. And they abandoned supplies, tanks, ammunition that are now in Ukrainian control. There is a lot of conflicting accounts of how much territory they've reclaimed, but I think it is not under debate that we're no longer talking about stalemate. They have retaken Kharkiv. They have retaken lots of places where the Russian forces were being resupplied. And I think there was conversation that some of the offensives in the South were sort of distractions. And now it's like, well maybe not, we don't really think that was distraction. We just think that they have the capacity to go on the offensive on multiple fronts. And that is clearly what they are doing.  

Beth [00:04:41] And I think that is the piece that I would highlight. If you're listening in the United States, without deep connections to this part of the world, and maybe you're not even sold on Ukraine as a front in the battle for democracy throughout the world. If you think, why do I care about this? To me, the answer is knowing that we have invested so many dollars and so many weapons in this region. And this weekend shows that Ukraine is making the most of what they are receiving from Western partners. This was coordinated. It is competent use of these resources. During the Trump era, there was so much discussion necessarily with his first impeachment about corruption in Ukraine. And I'm not saying that there is no corruption in Ukraine or anywhere else in the world. You can't ever be at zero corruption, right? But when you see this type of coordination and this ability to just dramatically out-strategize Russia, you know that these resources are being used toward the objective for which they were intended. And I find that comforting as an American citizen.  

Sarah [00:05:55] It strikes me that many of the things we've been talking about from the beginning are still true and some things have dramatically changed. It is still true that Ukrainians have more to fight for than Russians. It's just still true. Now, it is also still true that Vladimir Putin still has a lot to fight for. I was really struck by a piece in The Atlantic by Anne Applebaum, who basically argued that Putin's reason for being in Russia is to reunite, rebuild the Soviet Union. And this is showing that to be an impossible task. And that means that his reason for being, his justification for power is shaking, is faulty, and he has no real process for succession. That's another way that he has built power inside Russia. And her argument is like that should be concerning for all of us because it is hard to imagine, although many people said this out loud, including the both of us on our show at the very beginning, that we cannot imagine a way for Russia to leave and Vladimir Putin to stay in power. And so that's a big nuclear power with no process of succession and an authoritarian leader in deep, deep, trouble because of the successes of the Ukrainians. And I think we have to start thinking about that and start talking about that.  

Beth [00:07:25] And what does that look like in a country where the press is not free? I have no idea. But I think that a through line between this conversation and the one that we're about to have about the death of Queen Elizabeth, is this recognition that old empires are no more. And these efforts to continue to reconstruct them are going to fail because people have seen paths toward freedom and want to be free. And I think particularly in Ukraine, President Zelensky has done a masterful job telling that story every single day. Just he is relentless in his use of propaganda, and I don't say that word to criticize it. He is just relentless in creating this national identity for Ukraine, of weaving this war into Ukraine's national story about who it is as a country and who its people are and what their symbols represent. And I don't want to be celebratory about these advances, because I think the reporting has done a really good job of emphasizing the cost of this entire war, that these advances never come without cost, that there are people being held at gunpoint as Russian soldiers take their clothes and their bicycles, that there are power outages everywhere as Russia attacks critical pieces of infrastructure. I don't want to be celebratory, but I am encouraged. For sure.  

Sarah [00:08:54] I would say I lean more towards celebratory, but there is no way to hide the fact that as they advance they are going to reveal horrific human rights violations and the death of civilians where the Russian military has taken place. But that's why I can't help but be celebratory. They got to go. People are suffering because of this war, because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. And they have to go. It's a sovereign nation and they do not belong there. And so the longer they stay and the greater their advances, the worse it is for the Ukrainian people. And the opposite is true. The more territory they lose and the more hits they take, the better it is for the Ukrainian people. And I think the hard part of that is what it means for the Russian people. And I just don't think we have the answer to that and won't for a long time.  

Beth [00:09:42] What it means for the Russian people, including some of those people who were required to go fight this war and lied to, and many steps along the way about what the war represented and what they would be given in order to fight this war. The kind of leadership, the kind of weaponry, the kind of training. This is really sad and it's going to reverberate for years, even after the conflict itself is resolved. And most experts are saying this is a big shift in momentum and also this is far from over. Secretary Blinken here in the United States said we are entering a really critical new phase of this and it is very important that Western allies don't turn their backs on Ukraine now. So don't overinterpret this, but also recognize that what Ukraine has accomplished here is very significant. We're going to turn our attention now to another global event that has captured the attention of-- it seems everyone can't go anywhere without talking about Queen Elizabeth. So we're going to try to add our thoughts to that conversation up next.   

Midlothian Proclamation by Debbie McCall [00:10:58] Whereas it has pleased Almighty God to call to His mercy our late Sovereign Lady Elizabeth II, of blessed and glorious memory, by whose Decease the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is solely and rightfully to come to The Prince Charles Philip Arthur George. We, therefore, the Lords, Spiritual and Temporal of this realm, and members of the House of Commons, together with other members of her late Majesty's Privy Council and Representatives of the Realms and Territories, Aldermen and citizens of London and others do now hereby, with one voice and consent of tongue and heart, publish and proclaim that the Prince Charles Philip Arthur George is now, by the death of our late Sovereign of Happy Memory, become our only lawful and rightful Liege Lord Charles III, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland and of his other realms and territories. King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the faith, to whom we acknowledge all faith and obedience with humble affection; beseeching God by whom kings and queens do reign to bless his Majesty with long and happy years to reign over us. Given at St James's Palace the 10th day of September, in the year of our Lord 2022. God save the King.  

Beth [00:12:49] That was the voice of our listener and longtime listener and supporter Debbie McCall, who happens to be the Midlothian provost, the first female Midlothian provost. And it was very fun to hear her piece, The Proclamation of King Charles III. Queen Elizabeth's funeral has been scheduled for September 19th at Westminster Abbey. President Biden and Dr. Jill Biden will attend. And I know that, Sarah, you have lots and lots of thoughts about the queen. I know that your social media post about her death elicited lots and lots of conversation. So we're going to dig into that now.  

Sarah [00:13:25] I think the first thing is to try as best we can to distinguish her as an individual from the role she held. Now, that is very difficult to do with somebody who served that role for 70 years. But she was a human being, separate from her role as the sovereign. And while I and many other people expected her death to come, she was 96 years old, I think it caught everybody a little off guard because just two days earlier we'd seen her meeting with the new Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and I thought, well, how appropriate that this woman who has dedicated her life to service seemingly got up off her deathbed, did this one last thing, and then left this life.  She as a person and the choices she made as just a human being fulfilling this incredibly huge job, I think deserves a moment of reflection.  

Beth [00:14:24] I didn't feel shocked, I think, because after Prince Philip died, I expected that her death would follow. If I have the good fortune to be with my husband until our nineties, I hope that we pass relatively close in time to each other. And so when she died, I just thought what a life. This woman who's traveled a million miles to over 170 countries, I think I read, and has seen so much change and transition. And while I am not an American who is particularly enchanted by the royals or particularly interested in the royals, it just struck me that like 96 years in a position where you get to see as much as she got to see is extraordinary.  

Sarah [00:15:12] As I was reflecting on her life as an individual, I thought, she's this really interesting combination of something we've all started to understand, right? Because of social media, because a lot of people like us do work that is tied up in a social media persona or a brand. You know, we all have our personal brands now. And I thought, well, man, she was out doing that before anybody else. She from birth, I think that sort of part of the fascination with royals, her life was her job. and her job was her life. And everything everything was available for public consumption way before sort of your average British citizen and much less world citizen could comprehend that. But now that we can comprehend it a little more, I think it is interesting to think about that pressure over the course of a 96-year-long life that everything about you was this weird mix of public and private. But it's the opposite, right, of what we deal with. Because in social media,  when the public and private are mixed, conflict and politics is sort of the fuel for that branding, right? That sort of you want to make a mark by doing something. And she was the opposite, she had to live her life publicly. And then I love the way Andrew Sullivan put it in his newsletter, a job that required her to say or do nothing that could be misconstrued, controversial or even interestingly human for the rest of her life. Like, can you imagine,I even as someone who like the royals and stuff like that, her governess wrote a tell all memoir about her in her twenties. What the heck? Who was basically her mother because their parents weren't around a lot. And just all these touches like that her wedding dress was made from ration vouchers. Like the material for her wedding dress was she used ration vouchers. Like, all these things that we have a language, an understanding of now because of social media, but that she has been living for 96 years on this incredibly, incredibly, public platform. It's just overwhelming to think about.  

Beth [00:17:22] When I read that Andrew Sullivan quote, which I think I saw in a David French piece, I immediately thought of the previews for Roar from Apple TV. Have you seen those previews? It's like the stories of a bunch of different women. And one of them is a woman whose husband builds a shelf for her above the fireplace and just sits up on the shelf. And that is the image that kept coming to mind. Everything I read about her, I just kept thinking of that woman sitting up on the shelf and how much that must have been the reality for Queen Elizabeth, especially as I read about how quickly she wanted to get back to work after having children. That trip where she was gone for months and came home and told Charles not you and went to the dignitaries before her own kids. It's hard for me to imagine making those choices, but I don't know what feels like a choice if your life is being the woman on the shelf.  

Sarah [00:18:17] As an individual, I think that's how she's earned respect, especially over the last couple of decades, is because as the pace of change in the pace of media just got faster and faster and faster, she just had some experience that the rest of us didn't have. She had that experience of being inside a thousand year old institution, having to do TV. Like, her coronation was the first broadcast, as we've all probably read in a million different obituaries. They had a Twitter profile. She, obviously, during the death of Diana, learned a very difficult lesson about what people want as this pace of change and the pace of media change in particular speeds up. But it's like there was something comforting about the steady presence. This person who had lived through so much history had both been in it with us and been filling a very different role inside of it that I think just earned her an enormous amount of respect, especially in the last several decades of her life. And she definitely earned it for me. I read on social media that she was never the one I was beguiled with. It was definitely Diana when I was growing up that she had this authenticity that the queen seemed to lack. But I think there's been this shift in my own life. Definitely, listen, from watching the crown and appreciating some of the things that she went through and had to make really, really, difficult decisions or had no decision to make, which I think is even more difficult and just this enormous respect for somebody who had to sacrifice so much to a public persona.  

Beth [00:19:53] Yeah, I've been thinking about your tribute to her and what connects with me and what doesn't. I thought it was beautifully written and I know it really spoke for a lot of people. I think I feel more neutral about her, even as a person. Because I just cannot connect with any of her circumstances. I just don't know her. Even as I read profiles, she feels unknowable to me. And it feels wrong to me to take my perspective developed over just my 41 years compared to her 96 and impose my 2022 sensibility on her life in a positive or a negative way. It just feels out of reach to me. I think it's interesting to consider the role of the monarchy in Britain. I think it's interesting to talk about the history of that and where it might go next. I think it's really interesting to consider the difference between Charles starting point and her starting point. But as far as personal affection or disdain, I just can't find much of either for her. I respect her life well lived, but I don't have any kind of emotional attachment because she does just feel like she represents another era and a perspective that is so far from mine, I can't plug in to it.  

Sarah [00:21:22] I think I have the respect because I'm so fascinated. Regular listeners of the show know this. And I'm not just fascinated by royalty. I'm very fascinated by fame and what it does to people. And often it doesn't do great things. It's a hard, hard, life to be globally recognized. I don't think I'm being dramatic when I say it kills people pretty regularly. It is an incredibly difficult psychological task. And when I think, wow, she's done it for so long, she did it her whole life. And I think now it's a different kind of fame. It's not a fame that requires the vulnerability of performance in the same way that a musician or an actor or actress. I think musicians have it the hardest because of the vulnerability required to to sing and perform. But at least they have a role to sort of hide behind a creativity to hide behind. I think she had creativity. I think you see it in her in her fashion and her choices. But I think that it's just to survive it. To survive it and to be a person who, again, not completely knowable, but I think that's its own accomplishment in a role like that, and to have clearly provided an enormous amount of steady comfort to millions and millions of people. It's just endlessly fascinating to me what people do in roles like that. Now, as we talk more about the monarchy, which I think there's no way not to talk about this institution, when you have the longest reigning sovereign reign come to an end. When you talk about the monarchy, and this is a question I ask about fame, is it too much? This is the argument I made on our premium channels the day she died, which is if I was an anti-monarchist, anti royalist, I would make the argument that it's too much to ask of these people. It's not fair. It's a trap. I think Harry's right when he described it as a trap. And just because she was able to navigate it so well it doesn't mean anybody else should be asked to just because of who they were born to.  

Beth [00:23:29] I think that's probably true. I also struggle with the cost benefit analysis in the modern era for the citizens of the United Kingdom, especially given how much transition and upheaval happens in and around them. And when I think about Brexit in particular, and the declarative statement that the country seemed to be wanting to make, but also without a lot of reality attached to it, Brexit has felt to me a little bit like the Dobbs decision in the United States. Like, it was a symbolic rallying cry. And then you get it and you think, oh, wait a second, I didn't mean this. I didn't mean this or this or this or actually any of it, except for just the symbolism part. It is hard for me to imagine that the monarchy and everything that it represents-- I'm not talking about the family. I'm just just talking about what that represents and the baggage that it carries from the history of the British Empire and all that it took from people and stole and all of the human dignity that was crushed under the British Empire. It's just hard for me to imagine that it makes sense to continue it.  Even though I don't feel any particular affection for Charles, I do not envy the task of a new king. And king even sounds harder to carry in some ways than queen to me at this moment in history. I do not envy him trying to figure out if there is a healthy place for it and what that healthy place looks like.  

Sarah [00:25:12] I think this is, again, a multilayered, difficult analysis. Because you have the role of the monarchy to the British people. I am talking about Great Britain. I am not talking about Scotland, Ireland. We're going to get to those places. I'm not talking about the Commonwealth. I'm talking about the British people. And you see a lot of questioning among the British people. I thought the polling around the generations was really interesting that you ask 65 plus 74% think the institution of the monarchy is good for Britain, compared to 24% for 18 to 24-year-olds. So that's going to a conversation that's going to continue. I think as soon as Queen Elizabeth is laid to rest, you will see this flare up from the credit from the critics of the monarchy, and the criticisms are fair. Again, for me, I think Matt Iglesias wrote a really interesting thing that constitutional monarchies, they fit a need. And it's not a logical sort of analysis that gets you there. I think that's what Andrew Sullivan's getting at, it's an emotional need and it does seem to fit a need inside even a democracy. I don't think the benefits outweigh the cost to the human beings inside that institution. But, again, if they're going to have this conversation, and that is a conversation for the British people to have. That's fine. I don't I think it is tough. It's a tough nut to crack. I do think that it is doing something. It is meeting a need. She met it exceptionally well. I'm willing to give Charles a chance. I found myself feeling this sort of begrudging sympathy for him, even though he has not always been my favorite. But at this point, to see someone you know come to a role that they've been preparing for their whole life, it's hard not to feel like something for them at the realization of this moment. I and I think this conversation is important for them.  

Beth [00:27:04] I mean, you see some of that need playing out in American politics very clearly.  

Sarah [00:27:09] Absolutely.  

Beth [00:27:11] And I loathe to mention Queen Elizabeth and Donald Trump in the same sentence ever. But you see in the people who love Donald Trump are yearning for some of what the monarchy provides, especially if you watch coverage of like the rallies for him and the aperol and the deification of him. I just saw someone talking about a book that was being passed around at a convention that that basically talked about Trump as a christlike figure. And as you look at that stuff, you can see this desire for a leader who feels like defender of the faith and superhuman in some ways, and a national symbol. He is often depicted in imagery like wrapped in flags. So I think that need exists, at least among some Americans and people throughout the world. She definitely met a need to help establish a healthy national identity for some parts of her life. What do you do next with that? I have no idea.  

Sarah [00:28:18] I like the way the royalist historian David Starkey described it in an article I read called British Shintoism. And I was like, that's it. It's like a secular religion. Now, we can talk about the need for religion, but it's not like religion is always a net positive either. And I think that's what people struggle with. And I think as you move out from the British people specifically into the territorial conflicts, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, you know, the Queen passed away at her Scottish estate in Balmoral. She was known to sort of be relieved when Scotland did not vote for independence in 2014.  But I think that's coming. I think it's coming. I think Scottish independence, Irish independence, those are going to be some pretty dramatic changes that are, to a certain extent, inevitable. And so when we have this break in this moment to really stop and think, wait, what does this mean, especially for the people there? I think that that conversation-- and not just the conversation, those changes are going to come?  

Beth [00:29:30] I will just add that the fact that that drive for Scottish independence began pre Brexit tells me there's something inevitable about Scotland's independence as well and I think Brexit exacerbates the drive there. And I will say for Charles, he was very plain spoken and often attended in Queen Elizabeth's stead ceremonies where the monarchy was declared irrelevant to different places around the world and acknowledged it fairly graciously, and was often straightforward in discussing the stain on history that treatment of British colonies creates. So I think he is well suited to manage that as it inevitably comes. And I wonder what he feels about that.  

Sarah [00:30:28] Well, I will say as as we talk about this, as we talk about the Commonwealth, I was very frustrated by some of the conversations inside our post and other places on social media. First and foremost, I don't think people understand the Commonwealth. I did not understand the Commonwealth until-- I'm embarrassed to admit this-- the Crown. I didn't understand the history. I mean, I knew in a big picture way that the end of her reign is not the beginning of this conversation. Her reign was characterized by these changes and by the shrinking dramatically of the "British Empire". There was an interesting write up where they talked about how the language at her coronation was so different from her father, who was crowned the emperor of India. By the time she was crowned, India was independent. And so she didn't have these roles in some of the language queen of this realm in all of her other realms and territories, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the faith, set up this sort of internal conflict. Because all this conversation around decolonization, there are no more British colonies. The Commonwealth is an organization of sovereign states. These places are independent now. They have her as a sovereign. And is that a symbol of colonization and white supremacy? I think it's hard to argue that it's not. But the Commonwealth itself was problematic for her. She pushed for this. She pushed for this idea that they are sovereign nations, but we are an organization of these states held together. She famously got into conflict with Margaret Thatcher, where Margaret Thatcher said you're loyalties lie to the commonwealth and not to the British people, and that's a problem. Because she was pushing for independence and allowing independence in some of these places and some of these changes that at times the government were opposed to and people saw as too political. I'm not saying that Queen Elizabeth was some sort of advocate for change. She was not. But I do think that there is some real confusion about what the Commonwealth means and what her role inside of it was.  

Beth [00:32:36] So I think where your interest in fame and royalty intersects with me is with my interest in death. And I always am fascinated when someone of stature and notoriety dies and sort of everyone's need to issue a statement about it. Everyone, including people who don't have to issue statements about anything. But we all kind of feel like we need to put our personal tribute out there, use our voice to weigh in on the situation, commemorate in some way what is a personal loss to people who knew them and know shared loss to people who interacted with some form of a person. So I was not surprised by the vehement response to tributes to the queen that she is a representative of kind of everything that's been wrong in the history of the UK. I do just wonder what a healthy response is to that kind of question. I wonder how we can kind of navigate what we call here the chorus of 10,000 voices, where you have everybody weighing in and you understand that we are coming from a lot of different places in our viewpoints, and many of them are very, very, personal and filled with emotion and filled with connection to ancestry. What is a healthy response to that outcry when you feel as you do Sarah, a huge amount of respect for the Queen and a real separation between Elizabeth the person and Elizabeth the monarch?  

Sarah [00:34:14] I had a couple realizations based on those moments. That what's healthy? What are we doing here? What happens? I think it's a couple of things. One, the bigger the event, the more people feel called to respond and the more incendiary your take needs to be in order to get attention.  Because everyone's saying something. So if you want people to pay attention to what you're saying, it needs to pack a punch and. And I think you see that. I also think I'm trying to always keep in mind, which is sort of what I was naming even in my post about Queen Elizabeth, which is the difference between authenticity and a type of wisdom. I think often just because of my own personality, authenticity always sort of packs the most emotional punch for me. And I think that there is truth and an authentic response, and there is no way to argue with someone's experience inside an institution. When I say people are confused about the Commonwealth, well, obviously the people on the ground in these Commonwealth nations are not confused. And I thought some of the best coverage were interviews on the ground in Jamaica and Barbados and these places that have reexamined their relationship and how they felt about the Queen. And I think even in a broader world community, she was a global figure. And so many people are going to have very emotional responses to her, including me. And I think, though, the ones that really hit for me, that sort of pushed past that emotional response, there was a really beautiful post from Marcie Alvis-Walker from Black Coffee with White Friends on Instagram that I thought did that. Like just push past-- you know or named. That's what was so I think affecting about her post and what pushed it to me into that sort of this is a wise take. Is that she named that authentic emotional reaction. She named the problems with the institution. She said this represents harm, and chaos, and oppression to so many. And then kept pushing it, kept pushing it into another space and not stop it. I mean, that's something I try to do in my own life. I don't want to just stop. I don't think there's a way to block an authentic emotional reaction, but I don't want to stop there. And I think in these moments where we're all really experiencing something together, and because she was a global figure for seven decades, that is a global experience. I think being able to name that and to say, okay, well, here's the authentic emotional response, what do we want to take from that? That's what I'm always looking for in those moments. Because I think when we get mired in the more reactive responses, it just becomes a real whirlpool. And everybody's getting spun up, and getting spun up, and getting spun up, and I don't think it takes us anywhere except for in circles.  

Beth [00:37:27] I like the whirlpool metaphor because that is what I always feel myself resisting. I just basically went offline the day the queen died because I don't like that feeling. I don't think it does anything healthy for me. At the same time, I do want to learn from those perspectives. I want to learn from the people who adore the Queen and from people who despise the Queen and everything in between. I want to learn what I can learn. I don't want to get lost in the swirl of the proper take and everyone searching relentlessly for the proper take.  

Sarah [00:38:01] So I will say as a global citizen, even though I acknowledge all the problems with the monarchy, there is something sad to me. Now, Elizabeth Holmes named this in her piece. This is the last queen that most of us will see in our lifetime. We're back to men for at least the next three generations should the institution itself survive. And that makes me sad. I was always sort of struck and encouraged, maybe even a little empowered by this woman who was there throughout so much of history, just there present, being present, not showing up like to fill the role of a man, especially early in her reign, which was a very, very, different time for gender and politics. And it just makes me sad that that has come to an end. As happy as I was for her that her service had closed, I looked at my husband one point and I was like, I already kind of miss her. I think she had become sort of this like global grandmother figure in the best possible use of the term, this sort of elder, this world elder. That was continuity, and duty, and responsibility, and the sense that we will go on. Sort of that British mentality too, that carry on. We'll carry on. And she did. And it is sad a little bit that that's come to an end.  

Beth [00:39:38] I think that's so interesting because we so often talk about the elders in American politics quite differently. And so you can see the uniqueness of the role wrapped up in that sense that, yes, I actually do want a 96-year-old person who has seen a whole lot and whose capacity has changed throughout her time in the role. There's just a lot to think about when it comes to the queen. I'm glad we got a few minutes to think about her here.  

Sarah [00:40:04] Well, and I think you see that with people who surpass that role in American politics. I think Jimmy Carter has filled that role. I think he has passed on into elder. Elder in our sort of national identity and global community too. Not anywhere near the level of the queen, but I think, again, you see that need for that. You see that we are hungry for that. And I will be grateful to her. Even as somebody who was only alive for half of hers for the role that played.  

Beth [00:40:39] Next up, we'll talk about what's on our minds outside of politics. So we always end by going way outside of politics because we're all just people and we want to spend some time being people. And today we are people who love cake. We had a post over the summer asking folks what  their favorite thing of the summer was. And Aubrey, I just happened to see her comment among a sea of comments, said she bought a cookbook called Snacking Cakes and has been making one every week. Aubrey said, "I know this sounds like extra work to some people, but for me it's been my only creative outlet lately and I really look forward to it. So I immediately found Snacking Cake, bought it, started making a snacking cake." And I'm with you, Aubrey. I make a new one every Sunday, and it sits on the counter all week, and it's a joy.  

Sarah [00:41:34] I really respect you and Aubrey's self-control. We are making 3 to 4 snacking cakes over here in the Holland House.  

Beth [00:41:40] No kidding. Well, you have three boys.   

Sarah [00:41:44] I have boys. [Crosstalk] it sits in your corner for a week. What are you even talking about? Okay, so listen, y'all. I also have to cook, but we need to break down because the author of this cookbook, Yossey Arefi has not just created a cookbook, she has created a life philosophy. The snacking cake it's little. It's like eight inch, eight inch square inch round. It's easy. It's one mixing bowl. No mixers, no kitchen aid. You mix it in one bowl, you put it in the pan. Often you do not need icing. There is no icing. You just make the cake. And she says it's a snacking cake because it can be warmed up for breakfast. It can be a little afternoon tea snack.  There's so much there. There's so much there that I think snacking cake is the way I want to live my life. Easy, delightful, but not overwhelmed. Like, we don't have to dive all the way in. It doesn't have to be this overconsumption situation. I mean, I think we've made like probably five or six already. We've had the cookbook like a week.  

Beth [00:42:46] The recipes are simple, but they also are interesting. So I just made a whole wheat strawberry snacking cake. And it's basically a vanilla cake with strawberries, but it has like a big amount of cardamom in it, and it just gives a little something. And my kids like all of them. The chocolate and peanut butter is good. There are a lot of fruit based snacking cakes. The variety is awesome. So you don't feel like you're eating the same thing every week, but it is basically the same method. You're whisking some eggs and some sugar, then you're adding your dry ingredients and sticking it in the oven after you bang it on the counter to release the bubbles. It's just nice. It's delightful to make. It's delightful to eat.  

Sarah [00:43:28] It's all there. It's all there. It's a life philosophy I'm telling you. I love it so much. There's even three sections. There's the fruit section, the like-- what does she call it? Toasty warm and toasty cakes. And then there's the chocolate cakes and they're all great. I'm going to transition from the fruit section to the warm and toasty section too. I feel that coming the advent of fall. I mean, she could write one that's like around the seasons of the year. I would be down for that. I would also purchase that cookbook. I love it. I love it so, so, much. Also so easy to whip up if you're going to a like a book club or a little easy event. Now see Arefi, what a gift you've given the world.  

Beth [00:44:03] Which is your favorite that you've made so far?  

Sarah [00:44:05] I just made the pair cranberry hazelnut. Amos declared that as the best one. He really, really, liked that one. I also really, really, liked the oatmeal chocolate chip because oatmeal chocolate chip cookies are my favorite. And so the oatmeal chocolate chip cake was just checking all the boxes for me.  

Beth [00:44:24] It's lemony olive oil for me. That cake was fantastic. I've liked everyone I've made since then, but that was the first one I made. I served it not to a book club, but to my bachelorette watching club, and everyone went back for seconds. You know if women are getting a second piece of cake in a group of other women that they really like it. It was fantastic. So thank you, Aubrey, for sharing the good gospel of Snacking Cake with us. We will put a link to Snacking Cake in the show notes for all of you who need it in your lives now. And I encourage you to do one of those books.  

Sarah [00:44:57] Which is all of you.  

Beth [00:44:57] Thank you so much for being here with us. We'll be back with you on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.  

[00:45:15] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:45:20] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:45:26] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:45:31] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Heller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs.  

[00:45:49] The Kriebs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Valleli.  Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:46:07] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnson. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  

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