Representative Haley Stevens isn’t Messing Around

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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EPISODE RESOURCES

The Baby Formula Shortage

Resources if you’re looking for Formula

If you are unable to readily find formula, please consult the following resources that may be able to assist:

Manufacturer Hotlines

  • Gerber’s MyGerber Baby Expert : reach a certified nutrition or lactation consultant by phone, text, Facebook Messenger, web chat, or video call, who can help you identify a similar formula that may be more readily available

  • Abbott’s Consumer Hotline: call 1-800-986-8540

  • Abbott’s urgent product request line : ask your OBGYN or your infant’s pediatrician to submit an urgent product request by downloading and completing the form - PDF

  • Reckitt’s Customer Service line: call 1-800 BABY-123 (222-9123)

Community Resources

  • Locate your nearest Community Action Agency (CAA) . Your neighborhood CAA may be able to provide you with formula or connect you with local agencies that have formula in stock.

  • United Way’s 2-1-1 : dial 2–1-1 to be connected to a community resource specialist affiliated with United Way who may be able to help you identify food pantries and other charitable sources of local infant formula and baby food.

  • Feeding America : call your local food bank to ask whether they have infant formula and other supplies in stock.

  • Human Milk Banking Association of North America (HMBANA): certain HMBANA-accredited milk banks are distributing donated breast milk to mothers in need; please note that some may require a prescription from a medical professional. Find an HMBANA-accredited milk bank .

WIC-Eligible Families

  • Contact your local WIC office to identify or obtain additional sources of infant formula nearby.

General Guidance

  • Call your OBGYN or pediatrician to see if they have in-office samples or can suggest a similar formula that may be more readily available in stores and is nutritionally similar to your infant’s typical formula.

  • You should not water down formula, try to make formula at home, or use toddler formula to feed infants. Don’t discard formula unless it is expired or is part of the recall. Check your formula’s lot code to see whether or not it was affected by the recall.

  • You can find more guidance from the American Academy of Pediatrics .

Now What? Candidate Series Previous Episodes

Representative Haley Stevens

TRANSCRIPT

Haley [00:00:00] And we can make higher education more affordable by expanding Pell Grants so that middle class families aren't feeling the squeeze or telling their child that they can't achieve their dream because it's not affordable or attainable. We can do these things. Haley Stevens from Michigan.  

Beth [00:00:19] Well, I have to tell you, as someone who is represented in Congress by a deeply unserious person, I sleep better knowing that you're there in the details, that you could go deep on any topic I ask you about. And I so appreciate everything that you do for all of us.  

Sarah [00:00:40] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:42] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:44] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:59] Hello, and thank you so much for joining us for a new episode. This week, Pantsuit Politics has been just so typically meh and more. If you listened to Tuesday's episode, you know that Sarah and her whole family have Covid. I saw her this morning and y'all, she is sick, sick. I hope that she's getting good rest and that she'll be back to herself by next week. I know you're waiting to hear her talk about Madison Cawthorn losing his primary. I promise that she will and that it will be worth the wait. Today, I am very lucky to have with me two women who I know to be brilliant, kind, courageous and compassionate. Our very own Alise Napp generously took a break from her parental leave to talk with me about the infant formula shortage. If you're new to Pantsuit Politics, Alise is our managing director. She's off right now as she and Kevin, welcome one- month-old, Oliver, to the world. And I am so grateful that she brought her perspective to this conversation. And then we are very honored to have Representative Haley Stevens of Michigan with us as part of our midterm election series exploring the distinctive cultures that create these United States.  

[00:02:07] We always end our show talking about what's on our minds outside of politics. And I have been waiting for the moment to share with you how much I love seeing Garth Brooks live last Saturday in Cincinnati. So I will do that at the end of the episode. Before Alise joins me, I want to thank everyone who has read or listened to our new book Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything), and particularly those who've taken time to write to us about how helpful it's been to them. I spoke to a group of women working in STEM fields last night and I was telling them that success for me meant that at the end of our time together, they left with something, a word or phrase, a question, something that they could put into practice this week. And that's how I feel about our book. Sarah and I really tried to fill it with practical takeaways and ideas and words that we use all the time, and it has been really wonderful to hear those takeaways are actually being taken away. So thank you. Next up, Alise will join me to discuss the infant formula shortage. Alise, I'm so happy that you're here. It's just good to see your face. It's good to hear your voice. I'm so happy.  

Alise [00:03:20] It's so nice to feel like I'm doing my work and being an adult human for a hot minute.  

Beth [00:03:26] Well, tell everybody how you are. How's Oliver?  How is the first month with an infant been?  

Alise [00:03:33] This is very difficult. Parenting is hard and exhausting. We've made some some real improvements in the last few days since he turned one month. He kind of hit that developmental upgrade. My husband called him Oliver 2.0, and I said, "No, he's just like a 1.2 version." Maybe we haven't had a full next version, but we adjusted some feeding things which we're going to talk about and some sleeping things, and he's been much better. But the first month was a lot of having a different person scream in my face for most of the day. So I'm happy that we seem to be moving out of that phase. But now, I mean, really, we're doing well. We're so grateful that he's healthy and we're healthy and everyone's good and he's just being a baby. And babies are loud.  

Beth [00:04:19] I think starting with this is hard with someone who's in it. I think that's a good way to kick off a discussion about a formula shortage. Our listener, Elizabeth, puts this really well.  

Elizabeth [00:04:32] I am a new mom with a lot of new mom friends. And we have been watching the baby formula shortage closely for months. Conversations over playdates, chatting at the library, frantic texts when one of the moms in our group had run out of her specialty formula and had trouble finding more. As a newsperson, I have consistently found myself wondering why this shortage was not making the news and wishing that the experience of moms trying to keep their babies fed would break through. Earlier this week, when the shortage became more severe and the media coverage started to pick up, I was both heartbroken and relieved. Reading the stories from moms across the country that are struggling every day to feed their babies was so distressing. My little preemie had to use supplemental formula in the hospital and for the first few weeks of her life because she was so tiny. I continue to think about what it could have been like if she was born today rather than a year ago, and I couldn't find the formula that she needed to live. But my hope was in the belief that with more eyes and ears and the problem of the shortage, the more solutions that could be brought to the table to remedy this supply problem. Surely, when faced with these facts, people in power will all pitch in and do whatever possible to help. Then I saw what my governor, Greg Abbott, had to say about the shortage.  

[00:05:59] I was shocked to my core that he could take an issue like this and use it to sow hate and racial division in our community. I also heard from moms in my circle that with the news coverage of the shortage, some of them have been harassed in-person and online for their feeding choices for their infants. Things like being asked by strangers in the grocery store if the baby is breastfed or needs the formula Joe Biden is hiding. All of these events have led me to a new understanding of something I know you ladies have talked about for a long time. The nationalization, polarization, a tension based system we have in our country does not solve problems as much as it complicates them. I thought the baby formula shortage was a no brainer, a political issue, albeit a complicated one. But, boy, was I wrong. And while it seems like the Biden administration has put into place this week some things that will help. And I'm grateful to have a deeper understanding of the root issues at play here, thanks to some great reporting. I'm left wondering if the baby formula shortage is better off after being in the news this week. I'm wondering if mamas and babies are better off.  

Beth [00:07:16] If we could all just as we talk about this, remember, this is so hard in such an intense way at a time when you are physically and emotionally wrung out. To add to that, the possibility that you might not be able to get everything that you need for this little person that you're just trying to keep alive in the wide world that they're meeting for the first time, I think that is a really important way to begin.  

Alise [00:07:41] Yeah. Before we had him, and still now, so many people have wonderfully said, "As long as you're all alive, it's a success." Like everyone surviving, that's what winning looks like. Like, that is what success looks like. And I have very much come to embrace that of like even on the hardest days we're all alive, we're all healthy. Like, that's as much as we can ask for. And to have a circumstance where any of that is in question, I just understand it so much deeply. Which I will say from the start of this conversation, we are using formula. I am not producing enough, which is fine and normal. And so we're supplementing with formula. And we have since we came home from the hospital and we have been incredibly lucky to be able to find the kind that we need for him. And also, is what we're getting and able to find. It's a more expansive kind. And we can handle that financially. I did a More To Say a few weeks ago about that. I had recorded before I had Oliver about privilege and pregnancy and how this whole process made me see my privilege so much more strongly. And that just continues in this moment where I feel so intensely how lucky we are to be able to have the situation where we do, where we haven't worried too much about is are we going to be able to find formula? We've been fine, but that's not the case for so, so, so many people. And just being in this moment and seeing other people experiencing that is like a level of empathy that's hard to describe when you're not in the moment to. Or have been at some point in the past with your own baby.  

Beth [00:09:22] And I want to say, as we enter this conversation, that I also used formula with Ellen. With Jane, I did not. So Jane is 11 now. And I was really taken in by the idea of breast is best. And I think it was a different time. I honestly think that was being discussed differently 11 years ago than it is today. And I invited suffering into our lives by the way that I pumped and tried to make that work. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. It was not good for us. I think probably the benefits that she got from having only breast milk were outweighed by the anxiety and exhaustion that it created. So with Ellen -- and Sarah, I have to thank for this. She was just like, "Just pump what you pump and then add formula to it. What are you doing?" And she was right. And so that's what I did. And I also cannot really imagine what it would be like to just have in question that what I needed would be available. And I think that the as our listener, Elizabeth, beautifully articulated, it is just surprising that any of that has political dimensions, that we cannot have the fundamental empathy for one another, that there are a huge variety of reasons that are straight out nobody's business why people need formula, and why people of all walks of life need formula.  

Alise [00:10:45] Yeah, I actually texted Sarah like, I don't know, three days into his life and I was like, "Thank you for planting the seed in my mind so many years ago when I didn't know I would need it. That it was totally fine to supplement." And I will say I have friends who have had a whole variety of different experiences that have made them need to use formula. And so I feel very lucky that while I certainly have gotten some of the breast is best messaging, I also have seen enough friends and family experience things it's like, no, fed is best. Whatever it takes to feed your baby is best. I was thinking about this this morning and last night, knowing we were going to have this conversation and specifically about the politicization. I was trying to think why. I have this thought that this should have been a moment, like you said, for us to rally around and we can do this. And this is a thing that brings us together. And it felt to me like the beginning of the pandemic in some ways, of this moment of hope, of, oh, like, this isn't going to get politicized?  

[00:11:46] Like, we're all on the same page about this. We don't want people to die. We don't want babies to not be fed or to die. And yet so quickly, it becomes political and it's just baffling. I was thinking about why that is. Like, okay, so why is this an issue that becomes political? And at least the conclusion that I came to, I'm sure there are many reasons, but I was I was thinking about this I thought so much of effective politics, not ethical politics, but effective politics is driven by fear. And what is a more fearful situation than the not knowing if you're going to be able to feed your baby? And so what a moment to capitalize on fear. And that is like the most cynical, horrible thought. But also that's where I landed. It was like, why are we making this political? Oh, it's because it's easy. Because people are afraid. And that's when it becomes really easy to make things political. Again, not ethical, just effective.  

Beth [00:12:40] I think we're working out so many things through this vehicle, which we have been doing since the beginning of the pandemic and probably before, but in such an obvious way now. So let's back up for a second. If you are not in the world of having little littles or friends with little littles, the situation is this, formula has been disrupted in its supply throughout the pandemic because of logistics issues, because of the kinds of supply chain problems, transportation, fuel backups in ports that we've seen, plants going on and offline that we've seen in a number of industries. The problem has been materially exacerbated because in early 2022, the FDA responded to complaints about a particular formula manufacturing plant. Abbott Nutrition in Michigan. And did an investigation and found contamination in the plant, particular sites of bacteria. And there were reports of sickness. There were reports of two infant deaths. Now, there has not been a court that has adjudicated causation here. And Abbott Nutrition would tell us that there is no evidence that their formula created illness or death for these infants. But we do know that there was enough happening here that the Department of Justice went to court seeking an injunction to close this plant. And the plant went offline and powdered formula from the plant was recalled.  

[00:14:08] And it is important to know that formula comes in a powdered form, in a liquid form and in a ready to use form. We are just talking about the powdered formula. But this plant supplies an awful lot of formula throughout the United States. And it is one of the only ways that certain infants are able to get formula because they make a lot of specialty formula for infants whose stomachs are not able to digest the proteins that are in just regular formula. So if you have an infant with particular allergies or with digestive difficulties, this has really been hard on you. At least when I said we're working out a lot of our feelings about many things here, one of those things is poverty. Clearly. Because the hit this supply has taken through this one plant results from the fact that about half of all infant formula in the United States is purchased through WIC program that assists families living at and around the poverty line. And that program has been enormously successful in getting babies fed. It has also resulted in states doing exclusive deals with formula manufacturers. So a state will decide we are going to do a deal with this particular manufacturer. This is what WIC buys in our state. And that helps drive the prices down.  

[00:15:36] So as taxpayers, we might say, good job. That's the way to do this. And it works really well until it doesn't anymore, like most things, because the effect of states negotiating those exclusive contracts is that we don't have many formula suppliers. The market is really consolidated in a few big players, and that means you take one factory offline and you really have a crisis on your hands. And so we are working out how we feel about poverty, how we feel about motherhood, how we feel about breastfeeding. Somehow we have injected in it because we deal with everything an element of race. And I think we cannot ignore that this is happening against the backdrop of the Supreme Court decision that has made it seem inevitable that Roe versus Wade will be overturned. So here we are in America, where one political party in particular is telling us, well, you must have babies, all of them under all circumstances, and you must breastfeed them. And if you aren't you're just, I don't know, soulless. I think it's just hitting hard.  

Alise [00:16:49] Yeah. There's an episode of The West Wing. Sarah is going to hate that I just referenced The West Wing, but I know you're on my side in this particular love for the West Wing. So it's a great show. Does it hold up? Not entirely. But it's so good. And I just keep rewatching it. But I just watched the episode The Women of Kumar not that long ago. And one of the subplots in that episode is there's a whole thing with a potential outbreak of mad cow disease in the United States. And they're trying to decide, like, do we tell the public? And Martin Sheen's character, President Bartlet, makes this comment that it's when the smallest things, the things that we rely on the most, the things that we just expect to work, go offline that create the most disruption. And he's talking about the beef industry. But I think about that in many circumstances, and this has definitely been one of them. That we have this very tight supply process around this thing that is so essential to so many people and just a little disruption or several little disruptions it can be catastrophic for so many families.  

[00:17:53] And I think you're right. I think that we're trying to bring so many things to this conversation when it should just be how do we get these babies fed? But, yes, I mean, in what world are things like poverty and race and motherhood and abortion? All of these things are already things that create heated conversations. And so to pile all that on top, again, it's easy to see how this becomes a complicated discussion for people. And yet at the same time, when we just go back to the core of it, I'm like, why? Why do we have to layer all these things on? Why is this so difficult? But yet, here we are. I will say it's something that my husband and I have been talking about, too. When we've been able to find the formula that we have been using because we've been needing to get sensitive stuff for Oliver because he's just still so teeny tiny. His little digestive system is still working some things out. The regular formula is not so great for him, certainly not the level of people who have allergies or whatever. It's just a sensitive version. But my husband has been kind of concerned, like, why haven't we been able to find this particular stuff that we're using? Is it bad? Like, should we not be using this if we've been able to find it? Like, why is it still on the shelves?  

[00:19:08] And one is that we're not using powdered formula, which is where the main source of disruption is, which of course trickles down to the people buy the other kinds and whatever. But I told him, I was like, because another issue here is that we are buying the ready made formula that we pour it into a bottle and it's ready to go, and that's the most expensive kind. And for us that's fine. We can afford to buy the most expensive kind if we need to to keep our baby fed. But where we live, that's not true of everyone. I mean, it's not true of everyone in any place. But even the other day, I found some at the store and he was like, "Did you buy it?? And I was like, "No, we have enough." And the American Academy of Pediatrics says, don't buy more than you need for a 10 day, two week period. I was like, if I buy the formulas on the shelf, someone else in our community who does not have the resources that we do is not going to be able to buy that pack of formula. And so I left it there and I was like, okay, that's fine. But it was just, again, there's so many layers and trying to sort through that all in this moment where, as you said earlier in this conversation, you're just swimming in the emotional and physical exhaustion and trying to make rational choices in the midst of that. It's hard. It's really hard.  

Beth [00:20:16] It is really hard. And I appreciate you bringing up that you have had access to some formula. Because to Elizabeth's point at the beginning, about are we better off with people talking about this or not? Certainly information should be powerful. But the trouble is, on an issue like this, a lot of it gets really mundane. Why is there bacteria in some of that formula? It looks like because of water in the plant that hasn't been controlled. The FDA noticed some condensation around drying machines. Like those are banal details, you know, that nobody really wants to get into. But but they make a huge difference. And when we talk about a shortage of some kind of product that is not going to affect the entire country evenly. That's not going to affect every store evenly. So it doesn't mean that what's available to you is bad. It just means your area is doing okay right now for tons of reasons. Population, transportation and logistics price points. Who has the weight contract there? So to what extent does Abbot Nutrition impact North Carolina, perhaps less than another state? There are lots of reasons why formula might be available to you or why it might be drastically in lower supply elsewhere.  

[00:21:30] And the administration has said that it looks like nationwide the supply is at about 80%. And knowing that is important to prevent people from panic buying. As you said, if you are panic buying, you are adding to the problem. Now, that's a hard thing to say to people who have teeny tiny infants, because, of course, panic buying is what you're going to do in a situation like this. And so the information flow has to be careful and deliberate. And that is why, I don't know, state governors wading into this with political talking points is super unhelpful. We need to get people really get information about what's happening and why it's happening and what we need them to do and what our promises to them are as we ask them to do those things. So with that, we just want to make sure that we use our opportunity here to say what we have learned through a lot of research about this topic, emphasizes how important it is not to water your formula down to try to make it last longer. That can really make infants sick. So please don't do that.  

Alise [00:22:37] Don't use cow's milk.  

Beth [00:22:38] Don't use cow's milk unless you are in a really dire situation. Have a child who is almost one years old, have not seen any allergy kinds of issues and do it for a short a period of time as possible. Whole milk if you go that route. But the situation is cow's milk has proteins in it that are really hard for infants to break down. And that's why it is used as a basis for formula. But a lot of chemistry has to be done to make it work for those infants. Don't make homemade formula. Infants have died from that. And I know there are a lot of messages out there saying things have always been fine before we had this newfangled formula. And that is just not correct.  

Alise [00:23:20] Very much not correct.  

Beth [00:23:21] We want you to be careful. If you can't get anything but preemie formula, you could do that for a couple of days. Depending on the age of the infant, toddler formula might be okay for a younger child for a couple of days. When in doubt, talk to your pediatrician. Talk to your pediatrician about where you might be able to find some formula. Please don't buy it from auction sites. This is hard. It is also something that we can get through. We are one of the world's wealthiest nations. We can figure this out. In the long term, we need to think about industry consolidation and diversifying the sources for our formula. We need to think about tariffs. We have a lot of economic protectionism going on in the way this industry is regulated and configured. There are a number of places where government has been both a good solution and created problems, which is always the case for anything. But we need to think through those issues. But for the moment, I just think,  how can we support each other through? This is the question.  

Alise [00:24:19] And if you don't have a little baby that you're trying to feed and you see formula on the shelf in your area and you have friends who maybe have a little baby they're trying to feed, call them or text them and ask if they need it. And this should go without saying, of course, but offer absolutely no judgment about how anyone is feeding their baby, whether by necessity or by choice, because as long as that baby is getting fed, that is the important thing.  

Beth [00:24:44] Alise, thank you so much.  

Alise [00:24:46] Thank you. It's so nice to see you and talk to you and be here for a minute. And I'm so eager to be back with you all once I'm getting more sleep.  

Beth [00:24:54] We are eager to have you back and also no pressure whatsoever. We're so glad that you have this time and want to give you all the space and put no pressure on you whatsoever to do things like this, but are so delighted when you will.  

Alise [00:25:04] No, I'm so happy that it worked.  

Beth [00:25:06] Thank you so much to Alice. Next, it's my distinct privilege to introduce you to Representative Hayley Stevens, the congresswoman representing Michigan's 11th District. She sits on the House Committee on Education and Labor and the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology, where she chairs the Research and Technology Subcommittee. And you will hear her passion for innovation and manufacturing and for serving the people of her district and all of us well in this conversation. Well, it is an honor and a delight to have Representative Haley Stevens with us. Representative Stevens, you know that we have been following Colin Woodard's model to discuss the midterm elections, because we think that he makes a good point. That we are not urban, rural, divided as much as we like to talk about, or even divided as Democrats and Republicans, as much as the cultures of the areas that we have lived in play a role in how we think about the national landscape and who should be representing us. So you are a representative from Michigan, which is in Yankee dam and that surprised me. But as I read more about it, the description of people who sacrifice the individual for the group, who believe that government has a very strong role to play in ensuring that we're all living our best lives and have a focus on excellence, that all made sense to me. I wonder how that lands with you as you think about your district in your constituents?  

Haley [00:26:43] Well, even more broadly, I am such a fan of Colin Woodard's work, his book, the writings that he has produced. And these are points that I have stumbled across in my career as somebody who was working in Democratic politics in the 2008 presidential elections, first for Hillary Clinton and then for Barack Obama, trying to win back the presidency and reckoning with topics like health care, like poverty and running in to what I believed was a regional clash. How do you talk about poverty when it looks different in the industrial Midwest to the Southwest, to Appalachia, to the South and on? And so I recognized and celebrated Mr. Woodard's delineation. And I think very specifically to the sense of being a now sitting congresswoman in a district that I flipped from red to blue, became the first Democrat since before the moon landing to hold a full two year term  in my suburban southeast Michigan area, largest concentration of automotive supplier jobs in the country, home to some of that household name companies like Chrysler, GM and Ford. And and and, look, I really believe that people want to see a responsible, effective government that is doing and delivering for the residents.  

Beth [00:28:33] Well, I'm curious, as you talk about your district, what's really important in this election cycle to the people that you represent?  

Haley [00:28:41] Look, I think that people understand that we have and felt the things that we have done. They understand. We got a rescue act done that cut child poverty in half, made the largest investment ever in public education, fixed pensions, gave communities resources to tackle Covid 19, got an infrastructure bill done. But oftentimes, as we head towards the polls -- and I'm not the first person to say this, people don't vote to say thank you. They vote to make demand. And I believe Democratic voters in particular gained a lot more Democrat voters given redistricting and the  gerrymandering of my district that was truly cut out neighborhood by neighborhood and drawn for an officeholder of a different party. I think that Democratic voters are still very much talking about that during the delivering agenda, but right on the line in terms of voting rights and criminal justice reform. We're seeing choice slip away and that's certainly mobilizing people. We're still seeing and witnessing the ongoing effects and ramifications of Covid 19 and supply chain disruptions. You can measure the economy by job growth and productivity, and you can also measure the economy by your own individual purchasing power, right? This is very much the eye of the beholder. And you're not getting lunch easily for under $10. And if you're a family of four and taking them all out to eat, just even for what's supposed to be a low cost lunch, that's $50, right? The gas pump is high. The grocery store is high. Daycare costs are through the roof. And that has certainly created a sense of agiter. And it's hitting at a very time when trust in trust in government is really at some of its lowest levels.  

[00:30:53] And one of the things that we've seen, certainly with the election of President Biden, is that trying to reclaim trust. They call him Uncle Joe. He'll call your grandmother if you tell him it's your grandmother's birthday and he asks for the phone. He is really comfortable connecting with people one on one, which is in an amazing thing. And yet he's reckoning with the frustration of our electorate. And you certainly see that because there's polling. But if you ask people, do you like President Biden, they say they like President Biden. If you talk to people about  just the things we've done, I'm really enthusiastic about it. And I see the enthusiasm in people. So I believe that we are going to have people come out to the polls. I see it in the community meetings, the stakeholder meetings that we have around the district. There are Democratic clubs that five years ago when I started running for Congress were 30 people big and are now 400 people big and are remaining 400 people big. And much of this, Beth, is the care and concern for the direction of our country. And I'll just conclude by saying it's frustrating that we're coming out of a weekend where there were, I believe, four shootings. One that was racially motivated by a white supremacist, tragically murdered in open daylight 10 people in a grocery store. And we haven't used our legislative channels and abilities to make change. And I made that decision really early on as a Democrat running in a Republican district that I wasn't going to hedge on gun safety. I wasn't going to do it negatively. I just wasn't going to hedge because we do mean safety and responsibility. We don't need mayhem and confusion. And this is something that Mr. Woodard talks about and his plight towards reckoning with individual liberties and also where the government can kind of step in and take on a more group approach promoting the general welfare, which I believe common sense gun safety legislation would get us.  

Beth [00:33:25] And that does seem consistent with that Yankee dime sensibility that sometimes we sacrifice as individuals for the good of the group. Gun safety would seem to be one of those areas, and you see it in the polling. As someone who is in the halls of Congress now understands how the committees work, why is it so difficult to move forward what seem like relatively small and straightforward pieces of legislation?  

Haley [00:33:48] You know, this is something I'm always asking the incredible people who work in my personal office, the staff of Congress [Inaudible]. I keep asking my staff, where are the small wins where we gained even just an inch, a millimeter of ground? And let's make sure we're capturing that because we have. The Violence Against Women Act didn't get the boyfriend loophole, but it got the spouse loophole in there. And so if you have a spouse who's been convicted of domestic violence, you can't just go out and buy a gun. And I keep a portfolio. I watch these fatalities that take place at the hands of a spouse or a domestic partner or a significant other who go and sometimes it's a murder suicide or sometimes it's just a murder. It's absolutely jaw dropping. But I'll say this. George Packer wrote a very brilliant piece at the top of this year, just as we're turning into the new year about the fate of American democracy, how close we came really on January six, and how troubling those events and activities were and what we're up against, but what we can do about it. Something that he said in this piece that was published now months ago that has really stuck with me, was that these moments call for creative thinking. So I could walk you through why we don't have the vote, why we are on gun safety, on just even the very basic background check bill that 90 percent plus of the public want.  

[00:35:37] And Senator Chris Murphy, who got elected a month after the Parkland shooting, has sort of talked about  free and fair democracy. You can't just forever ignore the will of over 80, 90 percent of the population in terms of what they want, with just common sense gun safety legislation, starting with the background checks. But I also really believe that this moment calls for creative thinking and doing things differently. The old adage, the definition of idiocy is just doing the same thing over and over and getting the same result. So I'm one lawmaker and I really campaigned on this and took a risk. I campaigned on this very early on. The Parkland massacre occurred during the time I was running for office, and everything I was espousing really led up to that moment and then the March for Our Lives. And there were students, Beth, who I walked with in a March for Our Lives rally in downtown Detroit who are middle schoolers. Who fast forward to three and a half years later, were at Oxford High School in Oakland County, Michigan, experiencing a shooting. So that a big irony. But I think in terms of the creative thinking, this is something particularly with our president who's got his hands full. No short of challenges from certainly reckoning with Russia's war on Ukraine, to the ongoing effects of Covid and supply chain shortages, particularly one that's really hitting the fore right now and very unfortunate and terrifying with baby formula to gun violence.  

[00:37:24] And I would really encourage this president and say that you have my full backing and support to take every tool within your authority to stop this madness. If it's calling in the National Guard, if it's truly calling for a national emergency, certainly we can't shut down the country again. We  can't go back to where we were in March of 2020. But for the love of God, people out at the Milwaukee Bucks game, I think it was 19 shot. No fatalities, but 19 shot. What's the ongoing impact to that, to what happened in California to Buffalo. And this isn't the first time in a weekend where we've seen multiple shooting. So we've got to implore creative solutions through executive offices. And I don't want to just put all of the pressure on the president. I think governors and mayors you certainly see with Mayor Bloomberg is Everytown for Gun Safety effort and Mayors Against Gun Violence Initiative that has been very pronounced for a long time, certainly also being successful. But I'm introducing a bill today on liability. And I also think we got to be able to hold the gun manufacturers accountable as well. Sick and tired of living like this.  

Beth [00:38:45] I want to change gears and talk about the economy a little bit. I am really excited that Congress has been working for some time on semiconductor chips. And being from Michigan, I would just love to hear your perspective on where that legislation is and how it's understood at home. I think this is so tricky and would be so frustrating for me if I were in your shoes, I think, that you are working on building these long term solutions that are desperately needed. Things like the infrastructure bill, though, I imagine that will greatly benefit Michigan. It's just going to take a while. And any action on semiconductor chips is just going to take a while. So I'd love to hear your perspective on that legislation. And then more generally, how do you talk to people about these long term plays when you're governing in two year cycles?  

Haley [00:39:30] You have hit a sweet spot with me, Beth Silvers. So first, I will tell you, as a lifelong semiconductor enthusiast, so for the listeners at home, chips are these what's sometimes called a microchip, they're devices that go into anything from your phone to your microwave to your automobile to medical devices and on. And they're absolutely essential for our economy, either their storage, the communication devices. And they're tiny and they're complicated. They're produced in fabs that you have to suit up to to go into. You can't even have a hair really exposed because of how sensitive they are to material disruption. And our auto industry in particular is highly reliant on chips for success. So right now you see General Motors selling vehicles that don't have heated seats. Or for Michigan, that's almost a deal breaker in our cold, cold, winters and certainly the luxury of the first world. But the reason that they don't have heated seats is because of chip shortage. And the reason why we have production delays is because of a chip shortage. And it's not just what is the original equipment manufacturer known as General Motors, Chrysler, GM, it's the supply chain. The suppliers that produce the platforms for electric vehicles, the panels for the side of your door to the window, to the seat that you sit on in a car and they're all being impacted and they're really being squeezed.  

[00:41:10] And as somebody who stood up for the auto industry coming out of the 2008 presidential campaign cycle, like, I was working on President Obama's transition and wondering what I could do in his administration. If anything, maybe it was maybe just going back home to Michigan and helping my state that was in a Great Recession. I put up my hand to serve on what became his automotive rescue operation, led by Steve Rattner, Ron Bloom, and that initiative was a managed industrial bankruptcy. It was a rescue of GM and Chrysler. It involved the state of Canada and involved the United Auto Workers, the UAW. And it saved millions of jobs across this country. And in particular, according to our estimates, 200,000 jobs in Michigan. And there's a lot of fear and uncertainty during that auto rescue period. But what we're hearing now, particularly with the supply chain, is that the suppliers are on shakier ground than they were during the rescue. And what that means, Beth, is that a lot of small businesses that are highly capital intensive, not just moneys, but equipment that are worth millions of dollars that form the metal of the steel that go into cars or the different parts components. And if they shut down or consolidate as a result of this chip shortage, that further compounds our supply chain challenges as a nation. One of the president's first actions in this administration, our 46th president, President Biden's action was an executive order and supply chain, supply chain securitization, economic security and national security. And so I'm really excited that we've got legislation. Then in some ways almost seems like a catch up or an emergency reaction to the chip shortage. But it's great legislation. It's a $52 billion for chip manufacturing workforce training, which will be a huge part of this as well. It is bipartisan. I led the Problem Solvers Caucus in endorsing this legislation, 29 Democrats, 29 Republicans. And we're so close to being able to get this done. It's in what is a broader bill, the bipartisan innovation legislation, sometimes known as the COMPETES Act. Bipartisan innovation.  

Beth [00:43:41] I feel like it keeps changing. I can't keep up with the names of this.  

Haley [00:43:44] I do this for a living. It just keeps on changing. So with many, many, different needs. And the speaker called me to participate on what's called the conference committee, the negotiation between the House and the Senate, these and ours to get this done. And yes, let's pass the whole bill, which is also got a lot of my pet projects that directly relate to innovation, scientific research, funding, further efforts for supply chain and technical assistance and on. But let's also start thinking about and going as far as we can for phase two, which is a long term strategy to compete globally. You might recall in 2019, we renegotiate NAFTA. We passed NAFTA 2.0 or the USMCA, which plussed up by American contract was a better deal for American workers. Little known fact, this was passed into law the day after the first impeachment, which was really quite bizarre because the first impeachment was a very polarized political day and USMCA was a very bipartisan congratulatory day.  

[00:44:55] Both sides of the aisle recognizing each other and their efforts. Thank you, Democrats. Thank you, Republicans. And it really created a competitive framework for the US and the North American content to sell internationally and compete internationally. And so in terms of what we need to do with chips here, is we cannot have foreign markets controlling all of the production of chips. We innovated Intel, right? We innovated these companies here in the United States of America in the nineties, we were producing 40 percent of chips. Now, what are we down, 12, 13 percent? And they change with the technology. You get new types of chips that come out with new technologies, and we need access to those. So, yes, I am eager I have certainly been pushing for the success of this industry the whole time I've been in Congress. And although I want to say delighted to hear the president and the speaker of the House talking about the need for chips, I know it's coming from a place of real need. Do I think we should get this done? Absolutely. It's what I'm here for.  

Beth [00:46:07] Well, my last question for you is more about the vibe in your district right now. I frequently find myself saying, like, "What's happening in Michigan?" when I think about the plot to kidnap your governor, the response to Covid, just industry issues. I just want to understand how you think Michigan has reached a couple of times what feels like a boiling point to me, especially because of the pandemic, and what you think is needed to help people move forward and kind of out of this place of scarcity and tension.  

Haley [00:46:41] Look, it can't be done in platitudes. I remember right after January six, one of the stakeholders groups in southeastern Michigan said, "Let's have a symposium on all getting along." Or something along those lines. And I thought, getting along is great, but you can't just say those words. And by the way, you're sort of missing the moment of what actually happened to what we lived through on January six. And that's not just through the selfish lens of the elected member of Congress or even the professional staff, architect staff and janitorial staff that lived January six, it's what our nation lived through. And so I'm one a big believer in talking about the things that bring people together. I'm lucky because I came out of manufacturing. I'm really passionate about that segment of our economy and talking about manufacturing, innovation and workforce training brings people together. Is that the only thing that we need to do as a country? No. I think that there's a lot of pressure on the 435 of us who come into the House. The extra 100 who are in the Senate. And this dysfunction is not all on us, and it's not all just on governors or even state legislatures. There are profiting apparati that benefit from dysfunction and never writing success stories. I can't tell you how many times I've done something amazing done in Congress, certainly against self fulfilled. But first, bills signed into law Christmas Eve of 2019, the building blocks of STEM Act. Of course, that's not earth shattering, but it doesn't get a mention, right?  

[00:48:32] Even that USMCA  never got a mention, never talked about really as part of this complicated story of what transpired in the 116th session of Congress, from an impeachment to a pandemic to threats from Iran. So, one, we have got to compel a better dialog. I am a millennial. I came out of manufacturing technology based economic development. I got on Twitter in the early 2010sand spent a lot of time tweeting about innovation and geeky things and got into politics and never really had a liability tweet previous to running for office. And I realized Twitter is going to exist, social media is going to exist, but the healthiness of the dialog and how much I choose to participate in it may or may not be yielding the best results. We talk about doomscrolling for instance, and the job of lawmakers in particular is not to legislate off of social media and is not to overly rely on social media. And in fact, the compelling charge of lawmakers is to be of our districts. And I have that very profound privilege. Look, it's easy. It's a one hour commute on an airplane from Washington DC, back to Metro Detroit, back to my district. And so I can get home at a ferocious rate to participate in that discourse of our democracy. The dialog of my district. I do a program called Manufacturing Mondays. Sounds really hokey, but what that program is, and I love it, and I've done 175 visits to manufacturing facilities and training centers, and these are mom and pop shops. These are not household names. I don't come with a press podium. I come with a notepad and a listening ear to really understand what these guys are making -- guys and gals. What they're making, what they're working on, what problems they're trying to solve.  

[00:50:46] I mean, this is why I'm so passionate about what's taking place with electric vehicles and autonomous vehicle technology. You talk about getting chips, it's because we're innovating the world right now from the place that I call home. And we have the ability to continue to do that as long as we have champions who want to bring that to the halls of Congress. And I want to win the future. I believe in an American way. I don't know if every other country's going to be able to adopt our way. And I know that they don't think like us. But we have got to succeed. We've got to succeed on the basics of affordable higher education, on gun safety, on affordable health care, and then succeed on the big things like climate change.  And not through fear, not through division, but with through willingness to win together. And I'll just say, Beth, that I have friends on the other side of the aisle who are truly friends. And I'm one of the ones I'm a friendly Midwesterner. I walk through the halls of Congress and people all say hi to me and I say hi back. And sometimes we work together and sometimes it's just a friendship. But this is something that Pantsuit Politics was born around as an idea to have common ground, to find common ground, to have tough conversations. And I believe this -- and this is something I've learned from you, is if you're not understanding why someone is voting a certain way, if they're your colleague in the Congress or your neighbor and truly the community you live in, then you're not on the path to winning. I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but not understanding is a big mistake.  

[00:52:33] And there are those voters who in this new century still that we are living in who voted for Barack Obama, who voted for Donald Trump, and then who maybe voted for Joe Biden. Who are those voters? And what is motivating them? And who is listening to them and acting on their concerns and consideration? So I am doing the friendly piece of this. I am part of this deal called the Reagan O'Neill Society. It's just a friendly, fun thing that we kind of made up in our early days of Congress [Inaudible] coming together, not with an agenda, literally, I mean, just to socialize. But we are trying to do that and get results for people. And I want everyone listening, in conclusion, to know that things are happening that are good. We are coming together. We did do the Cares Act in the face of Covid 19. We did step up to stand up to Russia and support a western democracy in Ukraine. And we can find ways to be united. And I haven't lost hope on the things that frustrate and sometimes even devastate me. I mentioned gun violence a lot today, but also the opioid epidemic.  We can save people's lives by tackling these very fatal drugs, particularly fentanyl, that are getting into the hands of young people. And we can make higher education more affordable by expanding Pell Grants so that middle class families aren't feeling the squeeze or telling their child that they can't achieve their dream because it's not affordable or attainable. We can do these things. Haley Stevens from Michigan.  

Beth [00:54:22] Well, I have to tell you, as someone who is represented in Congress by a deeply unserious person, I sleep better knowing that you're there in the details, that you could go deep on any topic I ask you about. And I so appreciate everything that you do for all of us. And thank you for spending time with us here today.  

Haley [00:54:38] Thank you. Great to be with you.  

Beth [00:54:51] We always end the show talking about what's on our minds outside of politics because we all contain multitudes. And so it is at this special moment that I get to share with you the experience that was attending Garth Brooks live at Paul Brown's Stadium in Cincinnati, Ohio, last Saturday with my beloved husband Chad, and our dear friends Brian and Jen. Now, I was born in 1981 and raised in rural Kentucky. So Garth Brooks was as much a part of my youthful landscape as air and water. I can still see that black and white checkerboard cover of the Chase. One of my very first CDs. And I feel so sorry for my daughters that they're never going to know the joy of opening a compact disc and removing the cover to find it spill open like a holy book of lyrics and credits. It's been years since I've listened to much of this music for one simple and very 2022 reason, it's not on Spotify where I listen to everything. Garth did an exclusive deal with Amazon in 2016, but it really doesn't matter. All of that music is so deeply implanted in my brain. I could go the rest of my life without hearing it, and on my deathbed I'd be able to sing every word of the River. It is as much a part of me as Happy Birthday, and Amazing Grace, and American Pie.  

[00:56:07] So we made our way down to the stadium, home of the Cincinnati Bengals, to grab some truly bad food and spend some time observing the fashion choices of our fellow concertgoers. It's been a while since I've been in an atmosphere like this. I had forgotten about the creativity people employ in turning the American flag into boots, jeans, bags and headwear. There were many T-shirts proclaiming Blame it All on My Roots. Most in that style of calligraphy that has Live Laugh Love as its subtext. And there were, of course, more aggressive shirts featuring a variety of weapons, you know, the Come and Take It variety. One gentleman had a T-shirt that featured a silhouette of an assault rifle next to block letters that read Mandate This. We debated a bit whether that was a Second Amendment reference or a vaccine reference or some combination because why not? Chad graciously offered to go ask him about that, but we decided against it. Just as we were settling in the stadium, announced a severe weather alert and told us to take shelter. At which point it became clear to me that Paul Brown's Stadium was not built for a sellout crowd to take shelter all at once. We packed into the concession and restroom areas and tried to configure ourselves in a way that would minimize the amount of skin to skin contact we'd be having with others in attendance.  

[00:57:23] We ran into an old neighbor whose boyfriend had just been puked on and were able to offer her the one airline sanitizing wipe that I stuck in my jeans pocket at the last minute before we left. Two hours later, in the pouring rain, we got the go ahead to return to our seats and the crew went to work preparing the stage for the opening band. And we all tolerated the opening band just fine. But then at long last, Garth ascended hat, guitar, jeans and a Bangles jersey, and I didn't even care. Pander away, Garth. It didn't matter, because as soon as he started singing, I was 13 years old in my bedroom with the blue carpet and the mauve walls, not thinking at all about why his music suggests that infidelity is a given and its penalty is death. Not wondering why he went to work for her that summer. Not thinking too hard about what her hands of leather said about the future. Not caring one bit that allowing the whiskey to drown in the beer, to chase my blues away bore no resemblance to my life experiences whatsoever. With the exception of one opening song, his set lived in the span of eight years 1989 to 1997, just the way you hoped when you bought the tickets. I love live music. And Chad and I go to concerts as often as we can. I have never attended a concert where it seemed that every single person knew every single word of every single song. But that's what this was. A giant Garth-led sing along with 80,000 people.  

[00:58:52] I'm sure he's played hundreds of shows just like this, but he mirrored my awe at the sound of all these people singing together. The people in the American flag boots and the come and take it garb and the people with the blame it all on my roots calligraphy. All of us together, with this voice that had been omnipresent in a time in my life that I both barely remember and will never be far away from. He sounded amazing. Better than on the CDs. Better than on the radio of my family's minivan. Better than at the school dances. And every time I thought he might be winding down, he fired things right back up more and more and more. An embarrassment of country music riches. We gorged ourselves on Garth Brooks music, and it was an absolute delight. I won't spoil the ending for those of you who have tickets for this tour, but I will tell you that every moment was better than the moment that preceded it. We sat through it all soaked from head to toe and left after midnight. I was both shivering and sweating. I was exhausted and exhilarated. I was ready to fall asleep, but I could have gone another ten songs if anybody else was game. Garth said several times during the concert to the crowd, "People, you've been through hell tonight to see the show." And I guess I would just say back to him that we could have missed the pain, but we'd have had to miss the dance.  

[01:00:15] Thank you so much to you Alise, to Representative Hayley Stevens of Michigan, and to all of you for your grace and patience with me and with our team during a tough week. Thanks to Maggie, who has just been holding it together with me this week. Feel so much better, Sarah. And to all of you who've told us that you also have Covid right now. We'll see you next week. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.  

[01:00:45] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [01:00:51] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [01:00:56] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [01:01:01] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliot. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs.   

[01:01:20] The Kriebs. Lauri LaDow. Lily McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [01:01:37] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  

Haley [01:01:48] I'm seeing we're getting a special guest. [Inaudible]  

Beth [01:01:51] Hey, Sarah.  

Sarah [01:01:52] I'm just popping on to say hi, friend. And I'm sorry I couldn't be here today.  

Haley [01:01:57] Oh, my gosh.  

Beth [01:01:58] You look so sad, Sarah.  

Sarah [01:02:00] I'm so sick, you guys. I'm so sick.  

Haley [01:02:03] It is Covid. I mean, thank God for the vaccine, right?  

Sarah [01:02:06] Oh, my God.  

Haley [01:02:07] Can you imagine?   

Sarah [01:02:10] I can't imagine. We're so sick. We're so coughy. Also, my Internet is not working really well, which is why I'm joining for my phone. It's a real scene around here. Well, I'm sorry I couldn't be on the interview. I just wanted to see your beautiful face. And Sam is your friend. My jaw hit the floor when I -G griffin's 13?  

Sarah [01:02:26] 13 years old.  

Haley [01:02:28] Nope, nope, nope.  Now, I've really known you a long time.  

Sarah [01:02:35] I know. Don't forget to mention that Haley was also at the very first Pantsuit Politics meet up ever.  

Beth [01:02:41] That's right.  

Sarah [01:02:42] Ever, ever, ever.  All right. I'm going to go lay down.  

Beth [01:02:47] Thanks, Sarah. [Crosstalk] 

Sarah [01:02:51] I will. Goodbye. 

Maggie Penton1 Comment