Winning Isn't Available
TOPICS DISCUSSED
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EPISODE RESOURCES
The World We Had (The Corners by Nadia Bolz-Weber)
Fareed Zakaria Has a Better Way to Handle Russia — and China (The Ezra Klein Show)
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:00] Beth, as we sit here recording on Monday, March 14th, let's just do a vibe check. Can we do a vibe check with ourselves?
Beth [00:00:08] We can do that.
Sarah [00:00:09] And with the world.
[00:00:17] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:18] And this is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:20] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.
[00:00:36] Welcome to Pantsuit Politics, where we try to take a different approach to the news. Today, we're going to do an honest check in on the state of the world and why it feels so impossibly hard to be a human and an American right now. Then we're going to keep our promise to follow the recovery efforts in western Kentucky after the December tornado and share a conversation I had with Jacob Ryan about the frustrating experiences so many are having with FEMA. And then last, we're going to share our thoughts on the very serious and a very, very, long new Batman movie.
Beth [00:01:04] It's a journey today, is what we're telling you. Lots of today's show revolves around our experiences in our home state of Kentucky. But we are excited to pack our bags soon and head to Texas, where we know many of you live and will be joining us on Saturday, April 30th for our big live show with Clint and Kelly Harp of HGTV Fame. It's going to be a super fun night that doubles as a party for our book launch of Now What? How To Move Forward When We're Divided About Basically Everything. You will not want to miss it. You can get tickets for the link in the show notes. They are reserved seats, so make sure that you have there now and get the seats that you want. And, also, thank you to everyone who has started pre-ordering Now What. It means the world to us. We'll have a link in the show notes for you to do that as well.
Sarah [00:01:59] Can we do a vibe check with ourselves and with the world.
Beth [00:02:02] We can do that.
Sarah [00:02:03] My vibe is not great. There is a rampant stomach bug making its way across my community. Daylight Savings Time is terrible. And there are just so many horrific stories in the news today between Russia's expansion of the war in Ukraine. I'm heartbroken about the pregnant woman in the picture that went around the world dying. Not to mention a super sad story about an Indian family dying on the border trying to cross from Canada and the United States. And the psychopath making his way around New York and Washington, D.C., shooting homeless men as they sleep. What is happening? What is happening?
Beth [00:02:44] I have a similar vibe. Everything I clicked this morning was bad for me, even the things that were actually good news. Like I clicked on the CDC, county by county statistics to see where my county fell. And for the first time in the longest time, our transmission risk is low. We were still high when everybody else was low, but now we're low, and I didn't even know how to receive that information. I was happy about it, I guess, but it just felt like one input in this sea of inputs where everything is overwhelming. Mostly out of my reach. Pretty scary, really. In the big picture of things, I was having a conversation on Voxer with one of our executive producers, Katie, about what are the guiding principles about anything right now. And the only one that I could think of as really universal is something like survival. But survival is not universal when there's a war going on and countries are making decisions about how involved to get in that war. So, yeah, my vibe is not great as well.
Sarah [00:03:58] Not great. It's also horrific. I keep thinking about this email about were we living through like the most peaceful, prosperous time and we didn't know it? And I think, maybe. Maybe that's what was happening, but it wasn't the most peaceful and prosperous time for people everywhere. Because I read that email and then I listened to Fareed Zakaria as our clients podcast talking about like the United States has never had to prioritize before. We talked about this a little bit last week on our premium podcast. And I think, well, is that what it was? Was it just peaceful, prosperous for us because we didn't have any real competition on the global stage? Is this what it's felt like for the whole world, the rest of the world where you do feel like powerlessness?
[00:04:43] Like, there's a part of me, like, am I feeling this because there's war or am I feeling this because of a lack of dominance? You know what I mean? Like, do I feel powerless because the events of the time would make anybody feel powerless or is there mixed up in my perspective as an American, the sense of like powerlessness because we weren't always powerless and we got used to the idea of like, we act, things change. And now we're acting and it doesn't feel like anything's changing. It's the opposite. Feels like it's getting worse. And I'm just struggling like that. Is my perspective a global perspective or is it just, you know, infected with the privilege of being an American?
Beth [00:05:24] Probably all of it. I mean, I think that one thing -- and I can only really speak for myself, even, because we have not all experienced everything the same way. I feel an acute awareness of consequences informing everything I read right now. So I read a story about Ukraine. I especially watch any kind of video from Ukraine, and I'm trying to be careful about even clicking those because I know how much bad information is out there. But any time I get into the circumstances on the ground as they are unfolding, I can feel every bit of like 1997 Beth roaring out like, why aren't we fixing this? Why aren't we sending every resource that we have there to say this is wrong and we will not tolerate it? And it will end today. But a lot has happened between now and then where we see how intractable it becomes once you do interfere and you start to wonder who is being helped and who is being harmed by our actions.
[00:06:33] I watch leaders in the United States. I don't know if I should call them leaders or candidates. That's a question I've been struggling with this year. But I watch people in positions of power in the United States. Talk about all of this, and I have such an awareness of the way that they talked about COVID and the very real consequences of how we talked about COVID, which makes me feel even more reticent in talking about Ukraine. I just have this sense that. Any certainty introduced into a climate where people are so polarized and so frayed and motivated by so many different things at levels that are both conscious and unconscious, I just feel stuck because of my awareness of all of the consequences of things. Does that make sense?
Sarah [00:07:22] Yeah, I think that's an excellent way to describe it, because I think that's the sort of torturous aspect of this moment. The consequences keep increasing, and our control over the outcome keeps decreasing. I can't listen to anybody else try to explain Vladimir Putin to me. I cannot. Because we're never going anywhere. Even Fiona Hill, who I think's like incredibly intelligent, smart and the end of her interview, I was like, you didn't tell me anything helpful. But, like, that's not her job, you know. It feels like I want to know the right thing to do. And I think that's the training of our polarization. It's like there's this path in our brain that says we know the right thing to do that would fix this problem. It's our way, not their way. But that doesn't apply right now. Like, there's no our way, not their way with Russia that that's not going to help anything.
[00:08:06] Like, now there are some things we shouldn't be doing like, oh, I don't know, creating content for use by the Russian government. Tucker Carlson. But even if Tucker Carlson shut up tomorrow and, you know, change his stripes, that's not going to fix this. And I think that's the other thing too is like we're in this spot where promises about the future are either nonexistent or sounds so empty, which makes a current moment of like electioneering even more empty. I don't want to hear your promises.Get out of here with that. Like, who are you? How could you even try to say something right now about what you're going to do that's going to fix it. Like it just sounds so hollow.
Beth [00:08:51] I totally agree. I was listening to a podcast over the weekend and someone I really respect said on the podcast, "Let's talk about who's winning in Ukraine." And I picked up my phone and looked at it like right in the face, like my phone was a child.
Sarah [00:09:06] I thought you got to throw it across the room!
Beth [00:09:07] And I said, "No one. That is not a thing. That is not a thing in a war." And that is this shift that I feel in my brain because I very easily could have been in a who is winning in Ukraine space in a different time in my life. But right now, all I see is cascading tragedy for years into the future. I read an analysis this morning. It was a critique of the administration and President Biden saying constantly that we will not go to World War three over Ukraine. And the critique was, you are hurting American leverage in negotiations. You're hurting NATO leverage in negotiations by putting down this list of what you won't do. That negotiations are aided classically and you teach this in first year, you know, seminars about this stuff by maximalist positions that you can then walk back from. And I thought, How's that been working for us? Or are we happy with the classical rules of international order?
[00:10:10] I don't know how to assess some of those public statements from President Biden about this. What I do continue to think is, listen, they're trying a different way that I hope is informed by a lot of experiences that have not gone well. And the only way I know how to make things better is to make them different. And so while this doesn't feel like a winning strategy, perhaps nothing would, because winning is just not available here. It is more akin to like a Chapter 11 bankruptcy where you say something's gone horribly wrong here and everybody who touches this is going to suffer in some way. And the best we can do is trying to minimize the suffering and make the suffering happen in a way that's as fair as possible under the circumstances.
Sarah [00:11:01] Yeah, and it just feel like either thing is happening right now. It doesn't feel like there's any minimize of suffering. It sounds like Vladimir Putin's only strategy is maximize suffering for everyone. And it's just so hard to witnesses it, be in the same moment as it, try to move forward in your life understanding that there's always been suffering and violence in the world. It's just feels torturous in a real way. And in a way like the pandemic felt, yeah, there was really torturous parts of it, and it was hard and and there was a failure of leadership, and you could definitely do that like you do it differently and that's how we fix it. Even though I think deep down now, two years out, we can look back and say, like, there were some flaws in that reasoning because there were parts of the world that wer'e doing it differently. We're not escaping the consequences that we were. It just it was a it was an abstract. It was a virus and it felt like beyond our control in a way that at least eased the psychic burden in some ways, increased them in others, but eased it in some.
[00:12:12] This feels just so different and hard in a way that you're just looking at something that did not have to be. Did not have to be and is continuing when it shouldn't. And I think that sense of powerlessness is not something we're used to here in this country. And this moment in human history, I think, is teaching us like it's probably an emotion we need to get used to. Because we were never really in the driver's seat of global affairs in the way we thought we were. While there are phases of human history and world history, they're never permanent and this one won't be either. That's the only thing I can take. You know, a modicum of comforting is that the only thing permanent is change and this will not stay the same way forever. Might get worse might get better, but it's not going to stay the same.
Beth [00:13:01] How does it affect that feeling that you're exploring, Sarah, to know that some of American powerlessness in Ukraine is a choice? We do have military might that we are not bringing to the table here for reasons. But it is a chosen restraint. It is not akin to what other countries experienced because we could go in and escalate this rapidly and perhaps put it away rapidly. It would be awful for some time and there would be enormous risk. But I don't think there's any question that we have greater military might than Russia does, especially if we engage with our allies.
[00:13:41] And I think that's been the the most positive thing I will say about the Biden administration's approach to this conflict. Is that they have coordinated with partners in a way that I think has been very strategic and very thoughtful and important. So I don't think there's any question that if we brought more to the table, we would see a faster outcome. I don't know that it would be a better outcome, but I think it would be a faster outcome. Does that change anything in your analysis or how are you thinking through that decided restraint that we're living in right now?
Sarah [00:14:18] Yes, we have greater military might. But I think any analysis that says, you know, this would be even a faster outcome like this would change the game, I don't know, I just think that's foolish. Because in the same way, Russia out powered Ukraine, but Ukraine has much more to fight for. We would out power Russia, but they have much more to fight for. And it's not like we don't have lots of historical examples of where we mightily outweighed an opponent in a military conflict and still did not walk away with an outcome that anybody expected and most certainly no one hoped for. So I just think the idea that like we could roll in there and change the game, I mean, how many times do we have to learn that lesson that it doesn't work like that? And not only does it not work like that in any way that sort of assured the risk are enormous, just enormous. And so I am not tempted or persuaded that us entering this conflict would in any way shape or form decrease suffering.
Beth [00:15:32] There are two other things you said that I want to go back to you. One of them was about that abstract sense of the virus versus the more concrete villain in Vladimir Putin. I keep thinking about, especially as I watch polling, and I've said this in several places now, I really do not like polling about this topic. But as I watch the polling and I see the convergence of public opinion for a brief moment in time at least around the idea that we support Ukraine, that we do not support Putin, that Ukraine is an ally, that Putin is an adversary. I wonder why it is that that concrete villain for a conflict that is still remote as to us is bringing people together, when an abstract call it villain in the virus with very direct and immediate consequences for us divided us? Why is it that the thing that was closer to home was harder for us to coalesce around some kind of narrative versus the thing farther away?
Sarah [00:16:45] I don't think they were direct and immediate. I think that's the problem. Not until Omicron. You know, I spent months and months and months in a community that had like less than 100 infections, much less deaths. So I think the the government impact, like, the government's management of public health impacted our lives, but the virus did not for like a year, not where I lived. I'm just being honest. And so I think that that's what was so hard. Is it's still like the actual virus's impact in our lives still felt abstract for a long time. And then by the time it felt real, those identities surrounding the virus were pretty formed, pretty well formed and articulated in people's brains. And so that's a hard thing to undo. Although it did. I mean, I watched it with my father. He had some pretty well-formed political identities around COVID until he lost two friends in a week to Delta and then got vaccinated. So I just think that that's, in some ways, it's everywhere and in practice, and in some ways it didn't. It was this weird, paradoxical experience.
[00:17:51] And I think, you know, as we sit here and think back to how we handle the pandemic and what could happen next with the war in Ukraine, it's just this perpetual sense of, you know, being tossed around by the winds of change, and it's disorienting. I think it's just going to stay disorienting. I do think there was some truth in what Nadia Bolz-Weber said. That there was, for at least Americans, this moment where the world was out there and our lives stayed the same. And, you know, even if it's because of the prices we pay at the pump or at the store, it's just no longer true. Like we feel the impact. We're all tied up so closely together across the globe that we feel the impact of that.
[00:18:46] I do feel good about the next conversation we're going to have coming out of this not terribly encouraging vibe check. Which is I sat down with a local reporter in my community who's been following the recovery and cleanup efforts in western Kentucky. When the tornadoes swept through Mayfield in Princeton and Dawson Springs, we pledged here at Pantsuit Politics to continue to follow that story, and that's what we're going to do. The people in my community have started applying for FEMA grants, which is exposed -- you know, a side of that government process that I had not experience before. I know many of you who have experienced natural disasters across the country have, so we wanted to follow up and check in with how our part of the country is doing and wanted to share that conversation with all of you.
[00:19:48] I am here with Jake Ryan from WKMS, a reporter that I invited on here to talk to me and the Pantsuit Politics community because we are very committed to the Mayfield and Western Kentucky community affected by the tornadoes. And we want to keep following the story because you know there's a lot of national media attention after a natural disaster, but the story is definitely not over. You recently wrote about FEMA applications and how that process is playing out in Kentucky. So tell us about that.
Jacob [00:20:21] So, yeah, like you said, after the tornadoes came through, there was lots of coverage about the damage that was done and the lives that were lost in kind of that process. But then we knew that there would still be lots of stories to tell about the rebuilding process and the recovery process. And so this was a couple of weeks ago. And it was basically two months after the tornadoes had come through. We decided to look at the number of people that had asked FEMA for assistance, the number of people that actually got FEMA assistance because in the past couple of years, there's been a pretty focused attention on FEMA and the low number of people that actually get FEMA assistance with other disasters across the country. The Washington Post has reported on this. NPR has reported on this.
[00:21:09] FEMA has actually been under criticism from some congressional committees because of this. And so we looked at FEMA's data and found pretty much the same thing here in Kentucky. A very, very, small number of people that had applied for FEMA aid had been approved for FEMA aid. We found across the state in the counties that were affected by the tornado that were deemed a disaster. It was 87 percent of the people that had applied were denied FEMA assistance. And it's a big number. And it's important to remember that this is not the end of the road, right? This was just right before, at the time when we were reporting this, the deadline to apply for aid was approaching. The day we published this, I believe they moved the deadline back a month, so there's still time for people to apply. There's still an appeals process. So if you have been denied FEMA aid, you have 60 days from the date of your denial to appeal that decision.
[00:22:09] And so the experts I talked to said these numbers will go up, but they don't expect them to go up very much. Most disasters you look at, it's about a 25 percent approval rate right now. Or when we reported this story, which was earlier this month, it was about a 13 or 14 percent approval rate. And we took out some of the applications when we looked at this, almost two thousand people had their applications withdrawn, either voluntarily they did this or FEMA withdrew their application. So we didn't include that in the analysis. But a number of people, I mean, 4300 people, they were listed as ineligible just because FEMA could not contact them for an inspection or they missed their inspection. And so that's a whole lot other issue too. But, yeah, to the point very few people were getting FEMA aid.
Sarah [00:22:57] Yeah, I had no idea the approval percentage was so low. From your reporting, you're just talking to people on the ground, how many people are really dependent on the FEMA? Like how many people are solely looking to FEMA for aid or is there lots of other sources that people are looking to?
Jacob [00:23:15] It's hard to know just how many people. I talked to several people. Like, a lot of people I have found through Facebook. It's not a Facebook support groups and stuff like that where several thousand people are. And just browsing through there, you see a lot of complaints about FEMA. And I think that one of the issues that we found was a real big breakdown in the expectations compared with the reality of what was being delivered. Because after the tornado came in, you know, President Biden went to Dawson Springs and FEMA came to town. And so there was an expectation that things were going to be okay. FEMA was going to help people rebuild. All you had to do is apply and you would get help. But in reality, it's just not the case, right? I mean, most people are being denied. A lot of people have homeowner's insurance, so they're going to get denied because they have homeowner's insurance. Or people had trouble getting all the documentation that was needed.
[00:24:05] Some people I talked to in Bowling Green that maybe rented an apartment or subletting an apartment, their name wasn't on the lease, so there was complications in proving that you actually lived there. And there is some element of fraud also. I talked to some people who hadn't applied but got a letter saying that they'd been denied. A lot of people I talked to, they thought that FEMA would help make them whole. You know, they weren't looking to get rich or come out ahead of where they were. But even the people I talked to with insurance, they were hoping that FEMA would fill the gap between what insurance would do and then what else they would need. Because insurance is limited, you know, I mean, insurance doesn't do things outside of your house or with trees or with, you know, other things, you're living space.
Sarah [00:24:48] Well, and I've heard around town like people are saying that a lot of people are under-insured because the cost of everything has gone up.
Jacob [00:24:53] Right? Yeah, exactly. And people I've talked to say insurance companies are, you know, just sticklers to some extent. You know what I'm saying? It can be a slog to mess with insurance. But in FEMA so they don't really cover these things either, you know, so you have to get your claim from your insurance and then allow that to be processed and then submit that to FEMA. So if you are under insured, there is a chance that you can get some. But then it's like you have to stick with it, you know, you have to stick with it and you have to appeal. And it's just the process is confusing because luckily in Kentucky, we don't have that many major disasters to this scale where people can really know how to navigate the FEMA system. So it's it's really new for a lot of people, too.
Sarah [00:25:44] Well, I think that's what's so hard. I think you're asking people who've been through something really difficult who are stressed and overwhelmed to navigate this very complicated process. Do you see in the Facebook groups like a group effort? This is what worked for me, let me see if I could help you. Like, is there any sort of like -- it's almost like you need like a FEMA coach or like insurance coach, somebody who can help you navigate this process.
Jacob [00:26:12] Yeah, there's a lot of that. One of the first people I talked to was a woman that lived in Fancy Farm, and she had spent her life working for the Social Security Administration. So she, like, knew how the federal government works. And so she applied for FEMA aid kind of just to see what it was like because she had some damage to a detached well outside of her house. The electrical box on her well had been damaged. And so she didn't have water inside her house, and she applied for FEMA aid. And she was denied because that wasn't her house even though it supplied water to her house. But she did it because she just wanted to see what it was like. It was just a few hundred dollars to fix that. She was going to get, you know, a family friend to do it.
[00:26:54] So after that, after she'd seen how complicated it could be, she decided that, she was like, "I want to set up a shop or something like that to help people." There is a lot of people in the Facebook group saying like, "Here's what works for me. Here's a trick. Here's something you might figure out." And everyone I talked to, like in Bowling Green, everyone was like, "Yeah, it's the community that's helping us." It's like word of mouth or the churches or the donation centers or like Boy Scout troops or something like that. That's like the the big help here; whereas, FEMA is like -- there is a running joke it seems like on some of these pages that, like, it would be a better story if you found someone that actually got help. You know what I'm saying? Because there's just so many people that are frustrated.
Sarah [00:27:43] Yeah. Yeah. Are there any other like sort of stories you're watching or trends you're watching? I'm still wondering what happened to all the mountain of bottle of water I saw outside of the Mayfield Fairgrounds. Like, just the the influx of supplies I know is a big deal at the beginning.
Jacob [00:28:00] Yeah. And I went to Bowling Green, there is the old Cumberland Trace Elementary School is like a donation center now. And, I mean, every room is just full of stuff, you know, they've got it organized by room. And so there's just a lot of stuff. You know, there's rumors on like the Facebook pages about what is going to happen to the supplies or what is happening to the supplies. I don't know if any of these things are true. But, no, I don't know much about the supplies.
Sarah [00:28:30] It does seem like it's gotten a little bit better organized and they've been able to store it, but still you have to distribute it at some point.
Jacob [00:28:36] Yeah, I guess I don't know.
Sarah [00:28:38] So what's your sense of just the community spirit? Like are people like finding a path forward, helping each other? We talked about the lady helping people with FEMA applications. But just like being on the ground in Bowling Green or being in Fancy Farm, being in Mayfield, what's your sense of of how people are coping and how people are moving forward?
Jacob [00:28:59] I mean, the people I talked to had that sense of like, you know, digging in and going to do what they have to do to rebuild. And I guess people are helping a lot of people. I mean, there's been stories of people trying to loot. I mean, a lot of people are like, the looters came right after the storm, but now we're trying to help people. You know what I'm saying? So, I mean, it didn't surprise me that people are trying to help each other. It's such extreme disaster. I mean, it's like you can't explain it, right? And so I think people just felt a sense of like, we have to help out, you know. And that's what has helped a lot of people. I interviewed one woman in Bowling Green and she lived like in the one of the really hard hit areas there. And her roof collapsed the next day. And she's living with her dad now who lives just outside of Bowling Green. And all of a sudden with her two young kids and her husband. And she's very thankful.
[00:30:02] I mean, everyone I talked to was very thankful to be alive and to have the support that they do have. But she was like, you know, just the outpouring of support from like her church. You know what I'm saying? Like, people would pick up groceries for her or give her, you know, some clothes for her kids and stuff like that. Like, she didn't ask for the stuff, it just kind of happened. And she said it in an interesting way that was like it made her question like, "Would I do this?" You know, because there was so much .she was like, I don't know. Like, would I be willing to, you know, go do all this stuff for somebody I didn't know.
[00:30:36] She knew some of the people, but it was just like strangers just helping out. And when I was in the Bremen firehouse, which is like the mayor of Bremen, Muhlenberg County, he just had like a desk set up in the firehouse. It was really like a command center, you know, he had like a big map spread out. But then some guy came in and was just like tossed a couple of gift cards. And he was like, "Here, just for whoever could use it." You know what I'm saying? And I think it was like an Amazon card or something. So it's just like, yeah, the trickle of help is just like not stopping. You know what I'm saying?
Sarah [00:31:10] Because it's going to be long. I mean, this is just the beginning. You know, FEMA, it's just applications. The actual process of rebuilding, especially when building anything, takes so long right now because of supply chain delays and all that. So I think we're just at the very beginning.
Jacob [00:31:24] Yeah. That's like one thing that it's just like, how do you go about it when it's on such a scale that needs to be rebuilt and how long will it actually take? I mean, it's crazy, though. I mean, it's a crazy story. Because, I mean, people I talked to, like, the experts were like, "Oh, yes, that's very unfortunate, but it's not unusual." When the president rolls to town, you're like, "Okay, we're going to get some help." But it's just been... I mean, FEMA is like, this is not our job. And it's not our job to make you whole. You know, we're here to give critical services. And I think that the long term message of FEMA people expected something different. You know, it's like people are just like, I thought it would be different.
Sarah [00:32:09] I don't know. I read some crazy stories after Hurricane Katrina.
Jacob [00:32:12] Yeah, exactly. Yes. And after the fires, there's been some stories about the fires in California.
Sarah [00:32:16] Not a quick process, whether the federal government is involved or not.
Jacob [00:32:19] It's not a quick process. You're right. And, yeah, it's very tough. But, you know, a lot of people point to Katrina because there was apparently a lot of fraud during the Katrina time, right? And so there was an overhaul of the system to really tamp down the fraud. That's what really led to the high denial rates. Because if you look before Katrina, approval rates or up in the 60 percent. You know what I'm saying? And after Katrina, it's really dropped down because there's such a focus on the fraud that it has left people struggling to actually get the help that they that they need.
Sarah [00:33:02] Well, thank you so much for coming on our show. I really appreciate it.
Jacob [00:33:04] No problem.
Sarah [00:33:16] Thank you so much to Jacob Ryan for joining us on the show and having that conversation with me. Now, we're going to take a hard turn because Lord knows we need it. Over the weekend, Beth, Chad, Nicholas and I gathered in Nashville for a little bit of a couples retreat to do some business regarding Pantsuit Politics. But we also took a moment and went and saw Batman. It was not a moment, it was many, many, many, moments of my life with this. I'm sorry, The Batman with Robert Pattinson as the caped crusader.
Beth [00:33:57] Well, I think The Batman is a good starting place because I feel like what happened with this movie is everybody said, okay, team, this franchise has not taken itself seriously enough and we're going to fix that with this movie. We're going to call it The Batman. We're going to make it forever long. We're going to include multiple villains, plus extra mobsters for good measure. We're going to follow the longing, depressive gaze of Robert Pattinson for as many minutes as we possibly can. And it was brutal. Here's what Chad said yesterday when we called our friend Derek, who we process all pop culture things with. He said, "I really liked Robert Pattinson as Batman, and I thought he was terrible as Bruce Wayne." I thought that was a really good point about how this went down.
Sarah [00:34:47] Yeah, he was like evil Bruce Wayne.
Beth [00:34:49] It was joyless. The whole thing was joyless. There wasn't a moment of comic relief.
Sarah [00:34:54] Like, rarely joke. Nothing. And it's so long, you guys. It's three hours. But like the critics like it, and I don't really understand why. People like Robert Pattinson as Batman. And many of the reviews we were listening to and reading, like, they're all excited that he has returned as the world's greatest detective. Let me just, you know, disrespect this canon as much as I possibly can. I think that's dumb. And let me tell you why. The whole point of a detective is that they use their brain and not brawn. That's the point of the archetype of detective, right?
[00:35:32] I'm pretty sure it is. I just read Agatha Christie's murder on the Orient Express, really feel like that's the idea. So I don't know why I need a detective who also beats the crap out of people and has all the fancy gadgets. I think it's stupid. I don't get it. Like spy James Bond, brawn brain, makes sense to me. Get it. I got it. I'm on board. Detective as a big old, brawny, beating the crap out of people, I don't -- why do we need you to use your brain to solve the clues if you're just going to beat the crap out of people?
Beth [00:36:06] I have a different perspective on this. I don't think detective is the right word because he's not really solving the case following clues, building a story the way a detective would. He's playing a game set by the villains. It's like puzzles instead of detective work.
Sarah [00:36:25] Well, the villain is named The Riddler. But I think that's what they call it. Like, I think that was like a tagline, The World's Greatest Detective, like, especially in the TV show.
Beth [00:36:34] And I agree with you. I don't like that. But I do think rich guy who has lots of gadgets as a great puzzle solver makes a lot of sense. What I loved about the old Batman TV show, and I mean way back when, like for Christmas one year, my aunt Liz recorded on a VHS tape many, many, episodes of Old Batman and gave them to me. And I wore those things out. I loved them. My dad and I watched them together. It's pure camp. What's so great about it is that there's a little bit of a joke always, and Batman is kind of in on the joke. Like, his self seriousness is still kind of joyful because he's a little bit in on the joke.
Sarah [00:37:15] I should hope so. He's wearing a bat costume.
Beth [00:37:17] Well, exactly. And that's why I don't like the movies going full darkness and pure seriousness and no joy, because then you can't have the joke anymore. And it is just kind of dumb. It is this like, I'm super powerful, but also I'm going to take a second and stare at this card and work the cipher. I mean, it's a long, hard three hours when Batman takes himself completely seriously and Bruce Wayne is a sad sack. And that's what Bruce Wayne is as batman.
Sarah [00:37:50] Yeah, I like it. Definitely enjoy the more like sexy Bruce Wayne. At least, that gives you some relief when you get, like, playboy Bruce Wayne. I'm here for that. I'm here for, like, I like Christian Bale. I think that was my probably my most favorite Batman. I really liked those Nolan versions of the Batman movies. And felt when he, like, went away to the Batcave and trained, I loved to see how we got from orphan to Batman. Yes, please. I thought that was great. I'm also just maybe running low on patience for superhero origin stories about mean daddies. I got a lot of mean daddy in my life.
[00:38:25] I'm fully into season three of Succession, so I'm probably like full up on the villains and superheroes with daddy issues, to be honest. Or anybody with daddy issues because I'm having to manage all four Roy siblings daddy issues right now. So I don't know. I also think we just get spoiled with Marvel. They do a lot of this really, really, well. They're not flawless. You know, Skarsgard is boring. It's not her fault. But lit's just you come into something like this and you're like, why? And you realize how hard it is, what like Robert Downey Jr. does. That he can bring that joyfulness and the play but also say, like, this guy's struggling with some stuff. Like, that's hard. That's hard to do.
Beth [00:39:04] This really needed some Marvel oomph. That lightness, that we're in on the joke too and we're all ultimately having fun here. But it can be complicated fun and it can stretch across multiple movies kind of fun. To me, the one point of light in this movie was Zoe Kravitz as Catwoman. I thought she was a delight. I would watch a whole movie about her. I did think she had, like, you could see where there was the potential of humor with her because of her sarcasm. She was very sexy and like brought some heat. And I think Nicholas said this, like there was genuine chemistry between her and Robert Pattinson. And so I really, really, liked her and I thought that was by far the best choice made in putting this thing together.
Sarah [00:39:48] Lord, but save your time. You don't get those three hours of your life back.
Beth [00:39:50] And also like our seats were very uncomfortable. The popcorn was kind of stale.
Sarah [00:39:56] People bailed in the movie. People were like laughing because it was just getting so ridiculous at certain points. Like, not in on the joke. Just like, "Are you kidding me?"
Beth [00:40:03] The woman next to Chad, like, took a phone call during the movie, just sat and chatted on her cell phone, and it was fine. We weren't upset.
Sarah [00:40:12] Yeah, go for it, friend.
Beth [00:40:14] On the other side of things, can I tell you really quick that I went to see John Mulaney last night. And on the way in, they took your cell phones and put them in those packs where you cannot access them at all.
Sarah [00:40:24] That's what they did when we saw Ali Wong too.
Beth [00:40:26] It was like a sociological experiment watching people because they ask us to get there almost two hours before the show started. And a lot of us complied. We weren't there a full two hours in advance. But we got there early because they ask us to, and I know some of it was so that they could package the cellphones up so that we wouldn't be stuck in security forever watching people in an arena where they don't have their phones. Nobody knows what time it is. You're waiting for something to start. It was fascinating.
Sarah [00:40:59] That's why. They're priming you to laugh because you're also desperate with awkward energy.
Beth [00:41:03] I think that could be. I do think that they were trying to sell more alcohol too, honestly. Chad and I had a really good time watching this couple like almost in the very front row. I named them Price and Caitlin and decided that they're getting married in July. Price is not so sure about it, but they're in pretty deep now. And Caitlyn owns a little boutique fashion store, like, I had a whole vibe with them and it was really fun. But it was interesting to see what happens. I kind of liked not having my phone, except for not knowing what time it is. That made me feel bananas.
Sarah [00:41:32] Did you have a watch on?
Beth [00:41:33] No, who wears a watch?
Sarah [00:41:35] Me. Everyday.
Beth [00:41:36] I don't wear a watch ever for any reason.
Sarah [00:41:37] I love watches. I have like six.
Beth [00:41:39] It bothers my wrist. It feels like it's something in my way all day. Like, an obstacle to my life to watch.
Sarah [00:41:45] You don't have a well-fitting watch. That's the problem here.
Beth [00:41:48] Maybe.
Sarah [00:41:50] Maybe we'll do another segment someday where I find some watches for you to try on. Maybe Instagram Live is coming your way, everybody. Anything to distract this boy.
Beth [00:42:00] My heart is open to the possibility of a watch after that experience.
Sarah [00:42:04] There we go. There we go. Thanks for joining us today. We hope that you'll join us in Waco, Texas, at the end of April to celebrate the launch of our second book and spend some time with Clint Harp. Don't forget to follow that link in the show notes for tickets. Thanks for hanging with us today. We will be back in your ears on Friday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.
Beth [00:42:34] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.
Sarah [00:42:39] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.
Beth [00:42:45] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producer.
Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:42:49] Martha Bronitsky, Lynda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliott, Sarah Greenup, Julie Heller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.
[00:43:06] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDoW, Lilly McClure, Emily Neesley, The Penttons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katie Stiggers, Karin True, Onice Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Valelli, Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whited.
Beth [00:43:25] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.