The Price of Gas

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Russia’s war with Ukraine 

  • The Price of Gas

  • Outside Politics: Succession (Season 1)

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EPISODE RESOURCES

TRANSCRIPT

Audio Playback [00:00:00] Lawmakers standing behind the US's ban on Russian oil imports, the House overwhelmingly voting to approve that ban late last night, six days after President Biden first announced that move. Since then, though, we have seen gas prices here at home soar higher than we have ever seen them. 

Sarah [00:00:23] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:25] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:26] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:00:42] Hello, everyone, thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics, where we try to take a different approach to the news. Today, we are going to talk about what has developed this week in Russia's war and how we're processing it and what it means to take a different approach to that news, which is honestly something that we're struggling with. And we'll tell you about that. And then we are going to think about one particular aspect of that conflict that we're feeling more directly, which is high gas prices, something that we know that you're feeling as well. Outside of politics, better late than never, we're going to hit season one of Succession. We know it's only four years old. It's fine. 

Sarah [00:01:15] I was like, When did it come out? And you were like, 2018. Needless to say, there will be spoilers because you're on your own if you haven't watched it in the last four years.

Beth [00:01:23] But you all convinced us to watch it and we do have things to say about it. And so we're going to update you as we watch. Before we get started, we would love to invite you to join us in Waco, Texas, will be there on April 30th in conversation with Clint Harp and Kelli Harp who will also be making an appearance. You can get your tickets at the link in the show notes. It's going to be the best time. And if you come, you'll get our new book Now What early. And, Sarah, we wanted to tell people a little bit about Now What today because it's about time. 

Sarah [00:01:49] It doesn't release till May 3rd, but you'll get on April 30 if you come to the event. We love this book, ya'll. We're so proud of it. It's got a lot of stories about our personal lives. It's very different tonally from our first book, but it does feel like a continuation of the conversation. Even the title like, okay, well, I had a grace-filled political conversation and  I still think they're wrong. Now what? It's available for preorder now at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere you like to buy books. You guys know this. I know you know this. 

[00:02:17] There's been lots of conversation from authors over the last few years about how important preorders are. They help the algorithm, they help people find the book. And most importantly, with our supply chain issues, they help us understand how many to order. We don't want to run out. That will be so sad. So we appreciate you guys pre-ordering now. And as a thank you, we will have a special virtual event for anyone who preorders the book. We'll have more details about that soon, but all you have to do is hang onto your receipt with your order number and you'll be able to get that special preorder invitation. 

Beth [00:02:57] We are recording on Thursday morning. We started recording, providing as detailed as we can and update on what's happening in Ukraine, and then we scrapped that because we realized the situation is changing quickly in some ways and it's not changing in other ways. And that lack of momentum as far as what is being reported in the United States makes it easy for a lot of us to sort of tune out. That lack of momentum combined with how much more violent this is becoming, how much more senseless it's becoming. How gruesome some of the reporting is, especially about this bombing of a maternity hospital. 

[00:03:40] So we recognize that it's hard for everyone to hang in with in a way that feels like it's doing anything except creating more anxiety. We also recognize that this is historically important, that it will shift the world, that it is shifting American foreign policy in ways that are going to have long lasting consequences. And so, Sarah, maybe the best thing we can do is talk a little bit about how this is showing up in our personal lives and our personal conversations. 

Sarah [00:04:10] Yeah, I think it's really hard. Look, we're not journalists. We don't need to sit here. We don't have somebody from the Pantsuit Politics team on the ground in Ukraine. There are wonderful sources out there doing incredible reporting on the latest with the number of refugees and what's going on in Poland and what's happening with the fighter pilots. I mean, the only thing I think is important for all of us to remember is that we never know the whole story, even with fantastic reporting, especially with the sort of back and forth with these countries as far as what's going on. And I think you're right, I think gruesome is actually the best word because what is our ethical obligation to pay attention to gruesome, horrific realities in another part of the world that we have almost no control over? Sort of reminds me about our conversation surrounding the Olympics. I just think it's it's really hard. 

[00:05:02] I mean, I feel the attention to the coverage lessening, there's even like reporting on that, that the stories aren't getting as many as interactions. And it is different at the beginning when we were all like, well, wait, what's going to happen and how is that going to affect the rest of the world? Those questions are still relevant, but it feels like the more days we stack up where we know what's going to happen, which is Russia's going to continue to commit war crimes, Ukrainians are going to continue to resist and people are going to die. So now what? At my church last night, the older kids met and they were taking prayer requests. I wasn't there, my friend Diane reported this scene to me. And somebody said, "Well, we should pray for the people of Ukraine." They're like, yes, yes. So that tells me like whether or not we're all engaged in the coverage, if the kids are paying attention enough to to make prayer request, it's still out there in the world, for sure. 

[00:06:02] And then someone said, "Well, should we pray for the people of Russia? I know they're the bad guys." And they had a conversation about, well, sometimes when there's a leader making really terrible choices the people don't have a lot of control over that. And we're still called to love people. And it's still important to pray for people, even people that are hurting others. And then somebody said, "Well, should we pray for Vladimir Putin?" And they had a conversation about, well, you know, we're still called to love and Vladimir Putin is still a human being. And I thought, I mean, maybe that's the best we can do right now is to remind ourselves, especially the person that is in control, the person that is committing these gruesome acts is not a two dimensional character. He is a real human being. 

[00:07:00] With the stories in the news, it starts to become a story we're just watching, and it's hard to have those moments where we like realize now this is this is happening. These aren't just photos. This isn't just video footage. This is happening to someone right now, millions and millions of people. And that's just really hard to hold. I had a conversation with a friend. Everyone is just tapped out. They're struggling. All the stress and anxiety as this last wave fades -- not that we're done with the pandemic, but as the mask mandates go and the life sort of gets back to 'normal' for so many people, it's like, well, then this flood of stuff we were sort of packing away because we could not deal with it bubbling up. And so people are really stressed. And they're stressed about prices and inflation in the war. And it's just a lot. It's a lot right now. 

Beth [00:07:51] I was at the salon last week and the person who I work with there, who I know is very passionate about politics, usually in the opposite direction of me was talking about Ukraine. And she said that she is every day praying for Vladimir Putin, that something will soften his heart, that something will awaken him to the consequences of his actions and cause him to stop. And in some ways, it was a hard conversation to have because you think, like God, I'm getting my eyebrows waxed while people are being bombed and hiding in basements and trying to get on a train to escape this. But in another way, it was the most satisfying conversation I've had with someone about Ukraine because I felt like, you know, even though we have this whole discourse about what good thoughts and prayers are in the country, that was such a meaningful shorthand to me to just say, "Our hearts sincerely desire peace. Our hearts sincerely desire for people to not be senselessly driven out of their country or killed in it. 

[00:09:03] And whatever it takes to get there, we hope that we will get there. And here we are not able to effectuate any of that change, but putting out with our emotions and our minds that we sincerely desire peace, that is unsatisfying. And yet it was the most satisfying discussion I've had of this because I don't know how to feel. I don't know what our ethical obligations are as a country. It makes me really mad to see polling about whether people support a no-fly-zone. We all know what the ramifications of that are. We don't even know what a no-fly-zone would require of the United States versus other NATO countries. I mean, this truly is beyond our reach, even though as a human and as a moral matter, it's one of the most important things that I think has happened in our lifetimes. It's just is really difficult. 

Sarah [00:09:55] Well, the first thing I want to say is, yes, to all that. And I think the fact that it was with someone who you usually disagree with gets to something that I have definitely noticed in my own life, and even in the wider internet reporting world. But, first, I just want to say, yes. And, also, please don't put me in the like -- what's the actress with the viral video? AnnaLynne McCord, where she's like, if I was your mother, I would have loved you more. You have not seen this video, I know. 

Beth [00:10:22] I have not seen this video. 

Sarah [00:10:23] Don't go searching. It's terrible. Because you know what every mother in the world right now needs, is just this added pressure of like, well, we're in this war because the mother failed. Get out of here with that crap. So on that note. I thought David French's piece about like it puts so much things in perspective, including this nationalistic, ideological right that we're at war with the libs. No. No. This is what war looks like. And it's, like, I don't want to make it about like, oh, silver linings. We're understanding our polarization more because these people are dying in horrific ways. And also it is perspective giving. There's no way to avoid that, and what you want to? 

[00:11:09]  Does it lessen the tragedy to not take the important lessons of perspective or to let this affect you and affect how you see things and think about things? Like, I don't want that either because it should affect you. It's affecting our kids. It's affecting our conversations with each other. Now, it's not affecting us on the level that it's affecting Ukrainian people. But it should affect us even if we don't have a lot of control, even if we're not privy to the information. Even if we're not leading our response, it should affect us. 

Beth [00:11:41] Yeah, I was answering questions on Instagram this week, and any time I put out a general call, like, what do you want me to talk about on Instagram? A lot of pain comes across. And someone asks, what can I hold on to right now? And the most honest thing that I could say is that I don't hold on to things anymore. I think the lesson of living through COVID, war -- honestly, the kind of polarization that we have where you look around and you think, did I really know people before all of this? I think the lesson is that I am just part of a flow. It's not that I hold on to something, it's that I try to just be in and out of it and contribute to it the best I can, but know that I am not responsible for the whole thing. It's really challenging because I don't want to say that in a way that absolves me of the responsibility to grapple with big questions. 

[00:12:41] Or that absolves me of the responsibility to look at leaders and hold them accountable for decisions they make that do not align with what I think are our national interests and values. And I just I can't be paralyzed by the grief and the anxiety and the sadness that comes in when I really let all of this end, you know, I was saying to you the other morning, I started listening to the daily where they were on the road with Ukrainian refugees, and I was sobbing so hard in my kitchen I just had to turn it off. I thought, I get it. I understand, and I don't think anything good comes of me just being overwhelmed by this for the rest of the day when there are people here in front of me, around me who need me as well. It is just complicated. 

Sarah [00:13:29] You know, I'm sitting here and the one of me is like, well, should we take to the streets? Is there something we can do? And I'm like, what am I going to do? March for peace as if Joe Biden and Congress don't want peace. Like what? That's going to motivate them some more. Like they don't understand where the American people stand, that they want this to end, that they don't want the suffering of the Ukrainian people to continue. Of course, not. Like, what's that going to do? And I think the only thing that does seem like something we could do is to bear witness and put in our communities and our hearts in our conversations that things are different now. This is different,  our understanding of our place in the world. 

[00:14:12] We all knew it changed, we knew it changed with Iraq, we knew it changed with Afghanistan, but it's different. We have to prioritize in America in a way that we didn't for decades because we were the one world superpower. That's not true anymore. And so you us grappling, I think, with that in this situation. And I think the idea that there is a right thing to do here and if we did it, it would just fix it, like, that is an definitely not accurate understanding of how we move about in the world anymore. And so holding that complexity and understanding like there are no simple answers here, no-fly-zone or not, and that we have to make choices in America. And where are we willing to bear the consequences of those choices and where are we not? 

Beth [00:15:01] I think that's all true. And I especially just want to hover for a second on your point that President Biden and Congress want peace. I actually do believe the people in the United States who have the most opportunity to do good and to influence this situation are aligned with each other and with me and with the majority of American citizens around what we want here. Of course, everybody wishes that we could go in and protect Ukraine with everything we have. But, of course, everybody wishes to not have nuclear war. And, of course, everybody wishes Ukraine could become a NATO member and part of the EU tomorrow sitting here in America. 

[00:15:40] But we don't understand all the ramifications of that, and we don't understand the processes by which that needs to happen in order for it to not escalate the conflict. And so I am comforted by the belief that -- it kind of reminds me of what you say, Sarah, often about gun violence that people who are strident Second Amendment defenders do not love their children less than you love yours, right? And I think in this situation, I am trying to remember a lot of people's hearts and intentions are in the same place. We just have to figure out delicately and carefully what putting that into practice requires. 

Sarah [00:16:22] And, of course, those leaders want lower gas prices. Of course, they want energy pricing to be lower. And so that's what we're going to talk about next. 

Beth [00:16:46] Sarah, I feel a real conflict talking about fuel prices as well, except that when I start to really consider it fuel prices, like violence and war and everything else, most impact the poorest people in our societies. And when we're talking about fuel, we're not just talking about, can I fill up my car to go on vacation? We're talking about heat and the food supply and the supply chain and a whole host of issues that again really affect the most marginalized people in our societies. And in fact, all of us to some extent. And I think as we have some grace for ourselves knowing that we cannot hang with the gruesomeness of war every second of every day, we also can't detach fully from prices that directly impact us all day, every day. So that's the spirit that I'm trying to bring to this conversation. 

Sarah [00:17:45] Yeah, it's going to hurt people. It already is hurting people. Some people are going to have to start making very difficult choices because of the cost of gas. That's just that's the reality. And that is so, so, hard. And I try to remind myself, look, I have an electric car. Like, I have a diversification that makes this less impactful on me, on many, many, levels. But I was able to afford the electric car, but I'm afraid I might not be able to afford charging the electric car. But I know, like, you know, when I worked for our local food bank, they talked about generational situational poverty and then they talked about sort of temporary poverty. And like the number one thing that messes with people's lives and pushes them into really difficult positions are cars. 

[00:18:33] Either like not having one or it breaking down or, right now, I'm sure for a lot of people not being able to afford the gas in it. And so I think it's easy to roll your eyes at conversations about gas prices when there's a war. And  to do that, like, you don't care. You don't care that people are dying. Again, wish we could all stop assuming that anyone, no matter what you're talking about, doesn't care that someone else is dying. The percentage of psychopaths in our population is very low. You're not likely to encounter one in your daily life. So I wish we could let go of that because it is going to hurt people and they have a right to be upset and frustrated and angry 

Beth [00:19:11] And, well, on to your point about cars being a difficult issue for people, another issue that we complain about all the time here in the United States right now is a labor shortage. And reliable transportation is a huge part of people, especially people who have been in poverty for their entire lives and who grew up in poverty. Reliable transportation to a job is a key component to them being able to work and over time build a more stable life and contribute in a more stable way to the labor force. And so there is a lot going on here. 

Sarah [00:19:50] I even think about with mass transit, this is going to raise the ticket prices. Mass transit needs a break. It had a tough time during the pandemic too, and now to roll in with crazy high fuel prices? Or like even the airline industry that's been up and down and up and down with the pandemic and now they have like giant no-fly-zones over a lot of Europe. Adding to the length of the trip and then higher gas prices on these trips that are now longer. Like it stacks up everywhere. And I think that's why it's interesting that you saw this sort of solidifying in Congress despite the difficult issues here. Despite the difficult priorities and choices that need to be made, there has been in the last few days solidifying position around Congress that we got to ban Russian imports. Now, part of that is that we don't import that much oil from Russia. But then we had President Biden signed the executive order issuing the ban. 

Beth [00:20:42] I think the reason that we are able to do this despite the fact that gas has already been creeping up really high, is what you said, we don't import that much oil from Russia. But I think the reason that the administration has waited to do it and has been careful about it, because what we pay at the pump is a factor of the global market. And if the United States bans oil from Russia and that prompts European countries to do the same or any other countries in the world to do the same, it is going to significantly impact the supply of global oil and that price per barrel that influences what we pay at the pump. And we have like a very informational kind of outline for this segment of the show, too. I think the best thing that we can say today is, like, we share your frustration that there's not a lot of transparency around oil pricing. 

[00:21:34] We share your frustration that the gas that is in the pump here today is priced based on what it's going to cost to replace that gas, not what it cost to actually acquire that gas. It's easy, and I have done it, to say, like, is someone taking advantage of the situation? Is someone saying, "Oh, the news is telling us there's a war that's going to reduce the supply of oil. Let's just jack up the prices now like we do during spring break or summer vacation or the holidays." I know that the administration is investigating whether illegal activity has gone on around gas prices. I do think that we are seeing high gas prices for the same reason that we're seeing labor shortages and supply chain issues, that the entire world has been under a level of unusual stress and has not coped well with that stress. 

Sarah [00:22:26] Well, and just think about it. So my dad texted me and was like, we should not talk to Iran or Venezuela. We need to produce oil domestically. Like, we need to be energy independent. I mean, there's lots of issues with that. You know, we have become way more energy independent than we were in the 70s, which I think is where the debate has been defined for so many Americans. 

Beth [00:22:48] We export oil now. Like, we are contributing. 

Sarah [00:22:51] We export oil now. So that should tell you something. But my response to him was, well, just what you said. We're looking at something that will affect it in the short term, but really energy prices and oil prices, this is a long term game. You know, like, it's affected by so many things. It has to play out over time. All true. And, also, what do people see? That's funny that it takes so long for the policy to play out because the prices shoot up on a damn dime. Like, it fluctuates wildly in our lives and we're told,  but it's just these long term consequences we have to let play out. Well, how come? Because you jacked the price up in a day-and-a-half? So how come we all have to wait patiently for the policy to play out? Like, it does seem a little bit like bull***t. 

Beth [00:23:36] Well, it has that stock market vibe where confidence is driving the price more than actual inputs and outputs, where what we think is going to happen is influencing price more than anything else. And, yeah, that's frustrating, especially around something that's so critical to everything that we do. You know, the other thing that frustrates me in conversations about this is, like, I am all about clean energy. I also have an electric car. We are in the process of getting a contract to put solar panels on our house. Like, I am here for clean energy. And, also, the infrastructure to scale that up is not here yet. We're working on it. It's in progress. 

[00:24:16] The infrastructure law that was signed in this past year is going to go a long way in helping us with that. But to just say, well, we shouldn't be using fossil fuels anyway, does not at all meet the people who are really, really, harmed when energy prices go up and when the supply of energy is tight. I mean, there is a reason that Russia is trying to control Ukraine's nuclear plants right now because cutting the energy supply to Ukraine, which is very dependent on nuclear energy. Again, we're talking about people's food, we're talking about medicine, we're talking about transportation, like communications. If you control energy, you control almost everything. 

Sarah [00:25:01] Okay, but straight up we can't have this conversation without talking about the ever present Keystone pipeline. I know you've done a More To Say on this. We'll put the link in the show notes, but for the people out there who are going to have a relative that brings up the Keystone pipeline like me, what do you think is important for people to know? 

Beth [00:25:18] Well, the Keystone XL, which is the one that President Biden decided we are not going to build, has been proposed since 2008 to increase the flow of oil from Canada through the United States into Mexico. 

Sarah [00:25:35] Where we get a lot of our oil from is Canada. 

Beth [00:25:37] Right. The oil that we import, we mostly import from Canada now. It is a different kind of oil than we get from Russia. So all forms of oil are not equal, very qualitative differences. What I want you to know about Keystone XL is that the XL means the pipe is actually bigger. So the question is not if we're bringing in oil from Canada or not. It's how and how efficiently are we bringing in that oil? And, again, it was phase four of a project that had three phases. So that oil is flowing. We have since 2008, without Keystone XL, doubled what we get from Canada. So perhaps if Keystone XL were constructed, which is not going to be now. Not because of President Biden. Like, the company that was going to do it, doesn't want to do it any more. There were so many lawsuits around it. There were issues of land ownership. This is not a simple thing. 

Sarah [00:26:30] Imagine that.

Beth [00:26:30]  I know. I actually really appreciate what President Obama said about Keystone XL at one time. He said, it is not as big a deal, no matter what side you're on. Like, the environmental outrage about it is probably overblown. And the idea that it's going to save our prices is probably overblown. It's just become a symbol for the whole debate over fossil fuels instead of actually about this pipeline. Had it been constructed, it might have some very, very, tiny impact on fuel prices. But if President Biden had said go ahead with it, it would be doing nothing for us today except being tied up in court and more lawsuits. It has absolutely zero to do with the price you're paying at the pump and probably would have for the foreseeable future. 

Sarah [00:27:20] So as we go into these conversations, I'll tell you where I'm at. I'm not going to complain about gas prices. One, because nobody wants to listen to a Tesla owner complain about gas prices. But also because I want to acknowledge that it's not hugely impactful on my life for lots of reasons. However, at the same time, I'm not going to shut down other people's complaining and make them feel like they're bad people because they're complaining about gas prices while there's an invasion of Ukraine. And I'm also not going to pretend like I understand exactly what's happening and I know the answers. I think it's easy to get into a space where, like, the Keystone Pipeline wouldn't have affected that much. 

[00:28:01] We get all our oil from Canada. That just refuses to acknowledge the complexities and refuses to acknowledge what everybody can see, which is like OPEC is a black box that controls a lot of things. As a democratic country, we don't like that. We don't like that this organization that we have very little control over has control over us. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And so I think just holding space for people's frustration and understanding, as I'm sure President Biden does, at the end of the day he's going to take a lot of flak for that, no matter how much control he has over the outcomes. I think that's okay. 

Beth [00:28:36] It's hard not to be for or against something around an issue that directly impacts you. I was thinking about you and I just recorded an episode of More To Say where we just kind of got some feelings out, especially me, about Bill Barr. I don't have a lot of grace for Bill Barr as we'll come across. And I was thinking about why it felt kind of good to just go on a tirade about Bill Barr because it did. Honestly, it felt kind of good to go on a tirade about Bill Barr. And I think for me, I'm not much of a tirade kind of girl, but there aren't things that I have strong feelings about right now because all I can see is how hard these issues are, and how many factors are at work and how if you touch something over here, it is going to have enormous impact over there that maybe you can't even predict. And that thoroughness is exhausting and demoralizing in some ways. And so it feels good to just be like, here's a person I can get mad at work. I can feel real justified in getting mad at this person. 

Sarah [00:29:34] Hey, you know what? Like, I totally understand that. 

Beth [00:29:37] I think that you might. 

Sarah [00:29:38] yeah. Yeah. It's one of my most favorite coping mechanisms. 

Beth [00:29:42] I just want to make sure that I'm not doing that in places where it is truly unhelpful. And around gas prices it is truly unhelpful to just get mad at someone because there isn't one someone. Even the CEO of like Exxon, there is not one someone who can figure this out. I got a lot of sympathy for Shell, who took a beating this week for buying some Russian oil and then came back and said, "We're really sorry. We're also really worried and we've got to figure out how to get power to people who are totally innocent in this conflict and who need their lights to work, and need traffic to go, and their refrigerators to be cool, and their homes to be heated. So I have so much grace through the situation. I'm just trying to look for those pockets of place where an absence of grace might help me relieve some of the frustration that builds up around it. 

Sarah [00:30:30] That seems like an incredibly relevant transition to Succession. 

Beth [00:30:43] So outside of politics, we're going to just walk it back to June of 2018, simpler times. Simpler times. Sarah, here's the thing that I am just fascinated by. I feel like this is the first television show that has ever been described to me consistently by numerous people and accurately by numerous people. I totally agree with the way the show is sold to me. Which is mean and crass. You will not like anybody. And also there is something tender about it and funny about it and Shakespearean, almost. 

Sarah [00:31:20] Definitely Shakespearean. I'm the only outlier. I do not dislike everyone. I am not trustworthy when it comes to anti-heroes. I admit that about myself. I had solid crushes on Don Draper and Tony Soprano. And Tony Soprano was a literal murderer and still love him to this day. Love him. I love him so much. So I'm not average when it comes to this. I am not rooting for their downfall. I want even the meanest of most terrible anti villains to like -- even Logan. I'm like, let's get Logan somewhere healthy. Let's get him to a good place.  I was struggling at the beginning of this show though, not because I didn't like anybody, because I just thought they hadn't found their pace. 

[00:32:00] Like, I wasn't sure what we were doing here. There was a lot of like business machinations, which are fine, but I'm way more interested in the family stuff. And that moment where Logan gets out of the pool and you see all those scars on his back, I thought, okay, now I'm invested. Now I want to know more. How did we get here? Like, I get you're rich and I get that's complicated. And I don't mind like watching rich people struggle. But when that happened and you start to see like their mom comes in, that's when it really took on some texture for me and I was really, really, into it. 

Beth [00:32:37] I agree. I liked the first episode a lot. And then it got to feel a little bit like a chore through a few episodes for me. It turned to me when there was this story about how Roman was treated as a kid. 

Sarah [00:32:51] Yeah. 

Beth [00:32:52] And that's when I started to see the connection among the siblings, these different stories that they were all telling themselves about what their family meant. And I thought, okay, I get this and I really like it. I do want to ask you about an early episode, though, I feel like I have known a lot of big ego, little regard for others, ambitious kind of greedy men. I do not know a man, I think, who would urinate on someone's carpet to make a point. That was in House of Gucci too. There is a moment when a character peed on one of the Gucci scarves. And I thought. is there an epidemic of this going on? 

Sarah [00:33:31] I chalked it up to the stroke, though, that he still was not quite of his right mind. I didn't feel like it was like a real, like, this is my place. I felt like it was still, like, he's not all all the way well yet. That's just where I was on that. 

Beth [00:33:41] Okay. I asked Chad, like, is this a thing that happened? Chad said, " I think I know some people he would do something like that. Yeah, I think so."  

Sarah [00:33:53] They think about it but they wouldn't do it. 

Beth [00:33:54] It's very surprising to me. 

Sarah [00:33:55] You know what I mean? Well, Roman is the one I struggled the most with. Kieran Culkin does an excellent job of making him just truly obnoxious. Obviously, Shiv is redheaded and the only girl in the situation. I'm legally obligated to root for her. I like her. I don't like Tom, so it really doesn't matter how terrible she is to Tom. It doesn't really affect me because I don't like him. What's Tom's excuse? He came from a nice family in the Midwest. What's  his excuse for being  such a jerk to Greg? 

Beth [00:34:23] If you don't watch the show, Tom works in the family business. The family business is basically Fox News. 

Sarah [00:34:30] Yeah, but with theme parks. 

Beth [00:34:32] With theme parks and some other random elements. Tom works in the business and is engaged to Shiv, who is the daughter of Logan, who is the patriarch of this whole situation. And you have, as the title suggest, the siblings kind of jockeying for what's going to happen to this company as Logan is getting older. 

Sarah [00:34:50] Which is like Fox News, because you have Rupert Murdoch and his children jockeying for position within the company as well. 

Beth [00:34:57] Yeah, I agree with you that I don't like Tom at all. 

Sarah [00:34:59] I don't like Tom and I don't like Kindle. I know I'm the only one. I understand I am the only person in the United States of America who likes Kindle and wants good things for him. 

Beth [00:35:07] You're not. I don't dislike Kindle. I see the pain in Kindle and I see the moments. There is a moment when Kindle is really upset about sexual harassment happening at work, even as he doesn't understand how he's contributing to it. 

Sarah [00:35:25] He's like self aware. I get that. 

Beth [00:35:27] Yeah, they do such a good job of adding depth to these characters. For me, this is a refreshing way, I don't know why it's Succession. It's so refreshing. It is refreshing to me to like a prestige television show and to be able to get into it because it is not consumed with gore and violence. And it's watchable. It's crass. It's really, really, crass. 

Sarah [00:35:53] But there are so many pretty sweaters. 

Beth [00:35:55] Oh! My gosh. Especially Shiv, just look like walking dollar bills. Like the fashion. 

Sarah [00:36:00] Oh, I love it so much. 

Beth [00:36:00] And it's not even interesting fashion. Like, somebody made the point that they have all this money and they use it in kind of boring ways. But it's still interesting to see. But I just appreciate even where they're alluding to pretty violent and horrible things, it's an illusion. It's not like they're trying to bring you all the way in to something that is really terrible to watch. And I appreciate that. 

Sarah [00:36:26] Yeah, I think that that's how I felt about Mad Men, like, he was an asshole. And there were some really bad moments, but it's not like Sopranos or Breaking Bad, where you're just, like, people are getting dismembered and stuff. 

Beth [00:36:37] I can't watch that. 

Sarah [00:36:38] I'm excited for like a prestige show. You know I love a prestige show. I don't know why it took me so long to watch succession. Nicholas I did watch the first episode. My husband is -- he watches basically the finale of every season of Succession, and that is it. Have you ever? Have you ever? He, like, wants to know what happened. They’re kind of known for their finale, so he watches that and nothing else. And I'm like, You are missing it. And I think it's just getting better and better. They're also clearly getting more money in their budgets too, because there's a couple of parts in the first episode, like with the big gala, and I was like, no, this is not good enough. For what this level of wealth would we putting on like as a charity event? 

[00:37:14] Like you can see they're just kind of like shattered on that first season. Even her wedding, which I thought was fantastic, there were still parts where I was like, no, this would have been fancier than this. But I think as I'm watching the second season it's getting better and better. Like, clearly, their budgets are increasing, which I'm here for.  I want to see all the expensive things. But, yeah, I do. I can't help myself. I always root for the worst of the worst characters. I just want them to get some good therapy, even though then they would be so boring to watch. But I do like it. I'm speaking through season two, so I'm just giving you a heads up. We're going to be back in 2022 before we know it. 

Beth [00:37:47] Okay, well, I'm excited for that. I mean, people told me do not binge it. And so I watched it very, very, slowly. Now, I think I probably took that advice too far because I think part of my lack of interest in a few episodes is because I spaced it out too much. Chad and I watched the last two episodes of the first season within a week or so, and I was into it. I was ready to know what was going to happen next. Even when not a lot happens, there's almost a soap opera quality too. I get why Nicholas can jump in and watch the season finale. But there are so many little exchanges in the wedding episode. There are all these glances between Tom, who is the groom and Greg, this misplaced cousin who starts working his way into the family. 

Sarah [00:38:33] He's the star of the show. I can't believe it has taken us this long to mention Greg. Greg is a blessing to humanity and to this show. My friend was telling me that, like, people stalk him in New York City. Like, Greg sightings are just like they make people so happy. He's also huge. He's like six foot seven. 

Beth [00:38:49] I don't know where Greg is going as a character, but it looks like Greg is being made worse as the show goes along in terms of morality. And you still really like him because he's just really funny. He's really, really, funny. But there are all these like nonverbals between him and Tom that made those episodes for me around the wedding. So I don't know. I like it. I'm surprised how much I like it. I could talk about these characters forever, and if you're watching it, I would love to hear who you think is actually the worst person. This is a real debate in my house, who we think is actually the worst. 

Sarah [00:39:22] Unless you think it's Shiv, then you're not invited to answer. 

Beth [00:39:25] Yeah. And so my husband thinks it's Shiv. Chad thinks Shiv is the worst. 

Sarah [00:39:28] And this is problematic because we are heading away for a couples weekend together. Time to get that out of the way, first and foremost. Maybe we can arm wrestle about it. I don't know. We'll figure it out. 

Beth [00:39:38] Well, we want to end on a really lovely note, courtesy of Michel, who just had a baby in Saudi Arabia. Michelle told us that when she was writing her birth plan, she decided to use 'Have the best birth available' as her mantra. 

Sarah [00:39:53] That is perfect. 

Beth [00:39:54] That is perfect for all births, especially for Michelle, who knew she's in Saudi Arabia, and she was prepared for a lot of things to be out of her control. But in the end, she found a really supportive doctor, and everything went according to her plan. And her best birth available exceeded her expectations. And what a wonderful wish. We hope that you have the best weekend available and that what's available exceeds your expectations. We will be back here with you next week. Thank you so much for joining us. 

[00:40:35] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:40:41] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:40:46] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers ( Read their own names) [00:40:51] Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[00:41:09] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, Emily Neesley, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stiggers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Valelli, Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whited. 

Beth [00:41:27] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Brimmer and Tim Miller. 

Maggie PentonComment