A World-Changing Weekend

Topics Discussed

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Episode Resources

LIGHTNING ROUND

UKRAINE UPDATE

NOW WHAT? CANDIDATE SERIES


Transcript

Beth [00:00:00] Every time I read something about the Ukrainian people putting up this fight, I feel like the next sentence is 'And Russia still has this capacity,' so it's a fragile situation. 

Sarah [00:00:12] That's how I check the news all weekend. I literally would like open my phone, read the headline very quickly to make sure it was still mostly positive, and then shut my phone down. I'd be like, that's it. I was like, that's all I want to know. I just want to know that things are still going mostly well. And I'd just shut my phone and walk away. Like that was literally my energy all weekend. This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:42] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:43] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello, everyone, thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. As we are recording here on Monday, we are five days into the invasion of Ukraine and it feels like the only thing the entire world is thinking and talking about. So we're going to process all of that in the main segment of the show. However, other things are in fact happening. Like, I don't know, Beth, did you hear we have a new Supreme Court Justice nomination? 

Beth [00:01:20] I did hear. 

Sarah [00:01:22] So we're going to do a lightning round of several recent news stories at the start of the show then, because there's too much happening, we're going to skip outside politics this week and share the latest installment of our midterm series. You know, we're working our way around the country through Colin Woodward's book American Nations, so we'll end our episode today by sharing something hopeful. Our conversation with Melody Bray, who is running for state Senate in Georgia and part of the Deep South region of the country. 

Beth [00:01:47] We also have some good news as we get started. You probably remember back in the fall, we had to postpone the only live event we scheduled for the whole year in Waco Texas because of the Delta Surge. And it was the biggest bummer. 

Sarah [00:02:02] So sad. 

Beth [00:02:03] However, sometimes life takes your lemons and turns them into lemonade, and that is what is happening with our Waco event, because now it has become a whole big party coinciding with our book launch. So we're going to be there in Waco, partnering with Clint Harp and Kelly Harp. You probably know Clint and Kelly from their home improvement television fame. They also are extremely thoughtful, active citizens, and we're so excited to get together with them and bring you a very fun night in Waco on Saturday, April 30th. Tickets are on sale now. You can follow the link in our show notes and get ready to join us in Texas for what is going to be the funnest night. 

Sarah [00:02:57] Whoop! Whoop! Okay, so too much has unfolded since the last time we talked, a mere what, 36 hours ago? We're going to check in on three very big stories that would normally get their very own segments, but we're just going to have to go through them quickly. 

Beth [00:03:13] The first story we want to talk about are concerns about civil rights here in the United States. Last Thursday, Florida's House of Representatives passed a bill that is being referred to colloquially as Don't Say Gay. That bill would prohibit classroom discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity in kindergarten through third grade; and thereafter, in ways that are not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate in accordance with state standards. And I really want to emphasize the text of the bill. 

Sarah [00:03:43] Let me ask you, Beth, is there a lot of real specific nature to this very vague prohibition? 

Beth [00:03:50] Well, this is the thing. Classroom instruction is not a defined term in the bill. Age appropriate and developmentally appropriate, in accordance with state standards, does not seem to be defined so clearly that everyone in Florida knows automatically what this means and what it does not mean. And that is the problem. It is extremely broad, and in kind of a riff on Texas's abortion prohibition, it creates this private right of action. It allows parents to sue school districts for violating the law. So you've got really broad language opened up for lawsuits, and the concern here is that it is going to have what we talk about in speech circles as a chilling effect on any conversation about LGBTQ families and people in Florida schools, including some of the really important, often life conversations that students are able to have with school personnel about things that they are personally going through. 

[00:04:52] And there is just a concern that this means teachers who already feel under assault by legislators over issues of what can be taught around social studies are now going to have another fear of a thing that if they talk about, they're going to get in some kind of trouble. And it's really concerning. This language is sandwiched in a bigger bill about parental rights regarding student mental health. And I think there are aspects of the larger bill that aren't great. However, that bigger bill does not contain everything that you might have seen on social media. Schools do not have to notify parents if a student is gay. Schools do not have to notify a parent if a student is expressing their gender identity at school in a way that would be surprising to the parents. That is not in the text of the bill. What passed is just this language about not having instruction on sexual orientation or gender identity. This will not go to the Florida Senate. Governor DeSantis says that he supports it. 

Sarah [00:05:57] If you look at our public school system post COVID 19 and think, you know what we really need here is parental right of action to sue a teacher or a school system you're mad at over how they have merely spoken about LGBTQ issues. Including like the fact, oh, I don't know, that perhaps the teacher is gay and has a gay family. I cannot fathom a universe in which people in power with real issues, the state of Florida has real issues, just like states across the country, and this is what you're coming up with. 

Beth [00:06:43] And there are people who would say -- legislators who would respond to that, Sara, by saying, I never said a teacher can't talk about their family. Right, but you use the word instruction, and it's really unclear to me what becomes instruction versus what is casual classroom conversation. And, you know, just the context matters. I think you're right. The fact that this is being done against a backdrop of schools that desperately need help and resources to deal with the damage COVID 19 has created. The context that it's a midterm election year, and this seems designed to just inflame the culture wars in the context that it's happening at a time when we see anti LGBTQ measures across the country. So let's go to Texas now. Texas's governor, who I keep getting emails from, I have unsubscribed 7000 times to everything that comes in and still I wake up every morning to Texas's governor promising he's going to finish building the wall. 

[00:07:45] Anyway, Greg Abbott has written a letter agreeing with an opinion from his attorney general that gender affirming medical procedures for transgender youth constitutes child abuse. And Abbott purports in this letter to instruct Texas's child welfare agency to investigate any gender affirming medical procedures as abuse. This is not a new law. He can not write a letter and create a law. It is a signal. And it too ask citizens to turn against each other. This letter says If you are a licensed professional or just a member of the general public and you suspect that a minor child has received gender affirming care, you should report that to state authorities to be investigated as child abuse. And all this is happening as we're seeing efforts across the country to ban books, discussing sexual orientation and gender identity. And I just think we need to know that this is probably going to get worse in advance of the midterms, not better, because Greg Abbott probably doesn't want to talk about electricity in Texas, right? 

Sarah [00:08:56] Right. I bet. I bet there's some things Ken Paxton doesn't want to talk about, too. Oh, like, I don't know the fact that he's currently on trial for securities fraud. Maybe he doesn't want to talk about that and they have primaries coming up. It's just so transparent. 

Beth [00:09:11] And it's  wrong. You know, it is wrong. I am so concerned that adults in the United States have decided we cannot handle everything that has happened over the past couple of years. We're not in control of everything. It feels awful. And so let's just train our political attention on schools. It's not good. It's not healthy. We are asking our children to contain way too much for us. I understand that there are a variety of perspectives about particularly medical procedures that are gender affirming for kids. There's a there's a lot to talk about there. It's complicated, but the prioritization of these issues and continuing to advocate for measures that deputize citizens as culture warriors using the long arm of the law, to me, that is scary and it is so problematic, especially as we turn our attention to Ukraine later and talk about what democracy looks like and how fragile it is in the world. This is wrong and it's awful. And it's hurtful to people, and I'm sorry. 

Sarah [00:10:12] Well, and this issue is complicated, and that's why it belongs between parents and their doctors. And the way you can talk out one side of your mouth about empowering parents unless you are the parents of a transgender child, and then we will strip you off all autonomy and ability to make decisions surrounding your child. Again, it's so transparent. It's so political in the basest, most fear mongering way possible. And you're right, it's just one more thing schools have to deal with and teachers have to deal with. We're also right now in the middle of shifting mask guidelines, which is another thing the schools have to deal with right now. 

[00:11:00] The CDC has updated their mitigation strategies and the recommendations surrounding those mitigation strategies based on the risk level of in your community now used to be really focused on case rates, but they're shifting that now to hospital capacity, available hospital beds, hospital admissions, the total number of new COVID 19 cases in an area. So they've changed the way they're assessing community risk. And if your community risk is low, the CDC now says that you can drop the masking. If it's medium and you’re high risk for severe illness, you should consult with the health care provider about precautions. But the community risk level is high, masking indoors in public spaces is still recommended. But they've shifted the way they're assessing that community risk. 

Beth [00:11:45] And, of course, wherever you are, if you have any symptoms or you test positive, the CDC says you should be masking. There are a number of health care professionals who have said this is probably a really good move because it's possible, if not likely, that we will have future waves of COVID outbreaks and we need to be able to ask people to wear their mask then. And we need that ask to make sense. And we need people to understand that it is tied to some kind of discernible metric and that that metric is evolving as we evolve in the protection that vaccination and prior infection offers us the ability that we have to cope with those waves because of therapeutics. So I think this is good news for everyone. That doesn't mean that it will be received as good news across the country. 

[00:12:32] And it also doesn't mean that we need to have a lot of judgment for people who are still masking in different spaces. We do not know everyone's health situation and we do not know what's on the other side of a mask when we see one in a public space. And so I hope that we can all just have a lot of grace right now. It's been encouraging to me to hear the word grace from a lot of public officials about this. I think everybody's realizing this is not a light switch. It is not a moment when we're all going to be on the same page about what we do next. But here is our new guidance. Let's go forward and treat each other well as we figure out what it looks like. 

Sarah [00:13:08] Well, because we do know what's on the other side of that mask, a human being. That's what's on the other side of that mask. And, particularly, after our previous conversation and the conversation about Ukraine, I think centering each other's humanity is a really great first step. And last, as we roll through our somewhat lightning round of new developments, we have a new nominee for the Supreme Court. President Biden nominated Judge Kentaji Brown Jackson for the associate justice position being vacated by Stephen Breyer. Brown Jackson is a former clerk. For Justice Breyer. She was born in D.C., grew up in Miami. 

Beth [00:13:51] She's a historic nominee in many ways. Her parents attended segregated primary schools and historically black colleges and universities. She was a public defender. Should be the first person to ever serve on the Supreme Court who had been a public defender. She's also been part of efforts to look at sentencing in the federal system. She has been confirmed recently by Congress, first to serve as a district court judge under President Obama, and then she serve on the D.C. Circuit Court, which was one of President Biden's first appointments. She was a front runner for this nomination throughout the entire process. She went to Harvard for both undergrad and law school. The point is, she has the resume that every Supreme Court justice who's been confirmed and ever has had. Plus, a lot of personal experience that would add to the court's representation of the United States. 

Sarah [00:14:42] Yeah, she would be the first black woman to sit on the Supreme Court. This was a promise from President Biden during his campaign to make the Supreme Court look more like the United States. It was incredibly powerful to watch her during the press conference and hope that her nomination takes a nice, normal route, the United States Senate and she is confirmed without issue. Next up, we're going to talk about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the developments over the weekend. Russia invaded Ukraine on February 21st. It had amassed almost 200,000 troops along the border of Ukraine, and the expectation was that the Ukrainian military would be far outmatched. Beth, I feel very good about our analysis that that was ahistorical and not something to count on, because now as we sit here five days later, as we're recording on Monday, Russia has failed to take a single major city in Ukraine. And the Ukrainian military and the Ukrainian people have put up an incredible fight. 

Beth [00:16:03] I feel a tenderness here because I don't know what the situation will be by the time you hear this podcast. Every time I read something about the Ukrainian people putting up this fight, I feel like the next sentence is, 'And Russia still has this capacity.' So it's it's a fragile situation. 

Sarah [00:16:23] That's how I check the news all weekend. I literally would like open my phone and very gingerly, like scroll to my little New York Times widget. Read the headline, very quickly, to make sure it was still mostly positive, then shut my phone down. I'd be like, that's it. It was like, that's all I know. I just want to know that things are still going mostly well. I'm terrified of any negative news surrounding Zelinsky, and I would shut my phone and walk away. Like that was literally my energy all weekend. 

Beth [00:16:54] And I had a hard time because I don't want to check in on a war like I'm checking on the world series or something. I don't really know how to process this news in a responsible way. I don't know how to be so moved by a political leader like Zelinsky. And not just him, but all of the high level leaders in Ukraine standing in the street with their cell phones, saying we are here and we are fighting. 

Sarah [00:17:24] We don't need a ride. We need ammunition. 

Beth [00:17:26] This clarity of purpose and resolve that is so unlike what we've witnessed from political leaders across the globe in similar situations and certainly here in the United States, where political courage is frequently in short supply. So I don't know how to applaud that and be moved by it without giving short shrift to the very real danger that they face and the very real sacrifices that they're making and the fear that they have to feel, even as they have this clarity of purpose. So I have found myself also just kind of feeling like if I stand very, very, still, I won't do any harm here. And that's that's the best I can do, right, not doing any harm. 

Sarah [00:18:17] I feel a little bit differently. I have no qualms about rooting openly and passionately and emotionally for the people of Ukraine. I think that war is tragic and it is often complicated. But this particular war is less so than probably any we've experienced in the last 50 years. You know, we often talk on pantsuit politics that there's often not easy narratives with a good guy and a bad guy. But there kind of is here, there is a bad guy and it is Vladimir Putin, and he is wrong. Now, I don't think Zelinsky is a superhero. I think that he's an incredible leader, that he has risen to the moment. And I think, you know, part of his success is those people surrounding him. He clearly has incredible advisors and support around him. I mean, not to go like full Game of Thrones here, but the threat comes often from within, right? People who turn on you when the pressure gets too much or the promise of financial reward gets too much. And he has avoided that so far. And I think much to the Ukrainian people's benefit. 

[00:19:29] And  I think also because it's this weird combination of this particular war being like more, I don't want to say simplistic, but fitting the mold we're used to. Not Afghanistan, not Iraq, not all these other very complicated international conflicts. And also, the fact that it is this very complicated global stage on which it's taking place. And by that, I mean like the best we can do, the most powerful thing the world did was root for the Ukrainian people over the weekend in very public ways, including the Russian people taking to the streets and protesting this conflict. Like, that is a type of weapon in the geopolitical moment we live in, right? Is to get up there and see these amazing Saturday Night Live opens and Twitter threads and these like media moment. Zelensky gets that. That's why he's rising to the moment, right? Like, that's what he has been able to seize and take hold of. Is this moment of this is playing out for the world and I'm going to take every moment I can get. 

[00:20:41] And, of course, the incredible bravery of disdain. Like, we've seen other conflicts where the leaders bailed, right? Recently. And so I just think all that, like, I don't want to watch it like it's a TV show. But in this weird way, like the way you participate in a geopolitical moment like this is to watch it and participate like the pressure a global audience can give, like the global citizenship can give to stand up and say no. There is a part of me that thinks the way we all feel right now is the wind behind the sails of these incredible, really historical sanctions that the West is taking, right? Like if we were not tapped in, if we were not invested, I think it would be different. I really do. 

Beth [00:21:31] It is not that I disagree with any of that. And certainly this is Putin's war, not Russia's war. And I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be in Russia right now and have the economy free falling. I can't imagine what it would be like to have sent a loved one into Ukraine, where the Ukrainian people greet that loved one of yours saying, "What are you doing here? What are you doing here if we share all this history and culture? What are you doing here?" So I think that you're right, that there is a clear aggressor and that it is a singular aggressor, really. And my hope is that all of this public pressure and outcry will encourage both the Ukrainian resistance and the Russian resistance, the people of Russia who are taking enormous risk with their own safety to protest this war. And my other hope is that, just as we continue as a species to live on this planet, that we see war with greater clarity like this all the time. Because I think that part of what's going on right now is that it just feels so senseless. It feels like the most unnecessary suffering that's happening right now. 

[00:22:57] I had a full fall apart this morning. You know, I had been still a lot physically over the weekend. And then I worked out this morning and I came home and I was making my oatmeal, and Chad came in the kitchen and I just lost it. And I was like, I could not put our kids on the train and leave you to fight. Like, I am so mad that families are being asked this in Ukraine. It makes me so angry. So I agree with you on almost everything that you said. I think I still feel that sense of let me be still. Because so rapidly, we are seeing discussion of nuclear weapons in Belarus. So rapidly, we're talking about Switzerland not being neutral in this fight. We're talking about whether Finland now wants to come and be part of the of NATO. Just a years worth of global change culminating in a period of days, Germany taking a much more aggressive posture than it has in decades. 

[00:24:06] And I don't know what will come of any of that. And I am concerned sitting in a country that, like, really screwed Ukraine over time, after time, after time, from the end of the Cold War through our failure to hold President Trump accountable for that inappropriate call with Zelensky. I just am struggling with sort of the, well, it's a clear narrative, and so I have a clear cheerleading spot and I'm going to root for this all the way through and then we'll figure it out on the other side. I just feel too many pieces moving at once to not still have a sense of complexity, even though I do think that this is Putin doing an act of pure evil in the world. And I don't use the word evil very often at all, but I think that's what this is. And understanding that the Ukrainian people are defying a lot of expectations by rising to say, No, we are not aggressors, but we will defend our country." And I am moved by that, to be sure. 

Sarah [00:25:15] Yeah, I mean, he continues to escalate. They are stalled, they are not making the progress that Russia had hoped to make. And so he's escalating, ordering nuclear forces into special combat readiness. You know, the U.S., under the leadership of President Biden, made a very specific choice not to follow suit, not to escalate in the face of that escalation. But I heard Jim Clapper say, "I think personally think he's unhinged. I worry about his acuity and balance." And I thought, oh, that is so scary. Because to me it's how you think about Ukraine and Russia. And then there's also this separate track sort of what you're articulating about the dramatic escalation coming from the West. Again, we have EU sending money. We have Germany just taking a complete 180 on its foreign policy that has sustained for decades. Saying we're not going to spend our military, we're not going to send weapons or military to conflict zones. All these things. 

Beth [00:26:12] Would that feel a little different if it were Merkel. But it's a new leader in Germany. And so it is unsettling to me. I am both happy that it's happening and I am unsettled by it at the same time. 

Sarah [00:26:24] I'm less unsettled because it was so publicly supported both in their legislative body and on the streets of Germany. To me, that seems less unsettling to me. And I think what all this means, you know, the fact that the West really has gone nuclear with its economic sanctions, and that the ruble is in a freefall. It's worth less than one cent right now. It's this sense of this is taking place in this larger conversation about democracy around the globe. And I think there's this sense that we can get in that we've screwed it up post-World War Two, right? We messed it up and that's how we got here. And I think what I'm trying to remind myself is that, no, the post-World War Two approach was not perfect. There were problems and those problems have continued to manifest, and that's what we're re-examining right now. We're saying, okay, NATO and this idea of a Western alliance, and there were things that worked, but they didn't work perfectly because we're back in a space where authoritarianism is on the rise. 

[00:27:36] And I think what I'm encouraged about is that this just feels right to me. The way that the Ukrainian people are defending themselves and the rest of the globe is supporting them, it feels different than what we've done in the past, and it feels right. I know that sounds, like, emotional. I don't know another way to put it. You know, I'm not a foreign policy expert. I'm not a security official, but we got a lot wrong post-World War Two. We got a lot right. And we got a lot wrong. And this feels like a shift to me. It feels if the point is to support national identity and borders, then saying we will support you in your fight feels right to me. It feels like a sturdier foundation to start rebuilding that democratic ideal around the globe. 

Beth [00:28:40] I am encouraged that we seem to be willing to sacrifice something across the world. That private industry is willing to sacrifice something to say what Putin's doing here is unacceptable. I think it is good for us to start to understand that sacrifice can take a lot of different form. That we are able to participate without sending troops into Ukraine. I think it is good and encouraging and needed. I think the American public needs to see a way that the United States can be a leader in the world that doesn't involve us using our military directly in combat. 

[00:29:19] I'm aware that we're using our military in a lot of ways surrounding this fight. Certainly, we have people in those NATO countries right now prepared and at risk. So I don't want to minimize their sacrifice and service either. It's just very complicated. And knowing how early we are into this and how many different directions it could take, I want to be where you are, Sarah, and I just feel still up in knots about it because I think so much can change and there are so many factors here. 

Sarah [00:29:53] Yeah, I mean, I don't want any of this. I don't want any of this for the people of Ukraine that have died, for the people that have been displaced, for the people who have been separated. They don't want this. None of us want this. I am just encouraged at how strong the global reaction has been that said, no. There is another way for us to say absolutely no. Because it felt like for decades we were stuck in this narrative of the only way to defend democracy is to send troops, and putting the global economy at risk is not worth it. That's how democracy got devalued, right? Is because we weren't willing to put the global economy into the fight. And I feel like we paid for that literally and figuratively. And this feels like a shift to me, an important shift that says, no, when we say this is valuable, we mean it in every sense of the word. 

Beth [00:30:56] And I think it's just important for us to all know we are in a world changing moment and the world doesn't ever change only one way at a time. There are going to be ripple effects of this that are impossible to foresee and  we don't even know how this particular chapter resolves. So the other thing that I would like to say is we're talking about processing this is just to be so careful what you take up as an issue around it. We've gotten a lot of questions about various threads that are being sometimes reported, sometimes are just making their way around social media. If you're not hearing us talking about some aspect of this conflict, it's probably because we don't have good enough information to confirm that aspect of the conflict. 

[00:31:42] It's very, very, early in this. It is very hard to get good information in a perfect media environment during a conflict, let alone a space where at least in Russia, the propaganda machine is at constant work and many of the people are shut off from good information? And so I just want to be extremely careful about what we're picking up and deciding to get emotionally attached to as this unfolds. If you're not seeing major journalistic outlets running with something, it's not because they don't care. I think it's because it's hard to confirm that information. 

Sarah [00:32:23] Well, and because this is relevant to us as global citizens, it is not necessarily relevant to us as American citizens. And what I mean by that is let's not push this through the lens of our conflicts and our culture wars. 

Beth [00:32:37] That's right. 

Sarah [00:32:38] That is not only unnecessary and unhelpful, it is unethical. Because, again, it's not that this is not relevant to us as citizens of the world, as citizens of one of the world's major superpowers and democracies. That doesn't mean that it is relevant and neat in tiny ways to all our Partisan divides. 

Beth [00:33:05] I'll tell you, I think that helps me understand another piece of my discomfort, not with expressions of support. I think expressions of support are really important. I love seeing cities light up in Ukraine's colors. I loved the choir at the beginning of Saturday Night Live. Those kinds of expressions of support, I think, are very powerful and very important. On a more personal level, though, I kind of struggle with thinking Zelensky is Ukraine's hero, not mine. And this doesn't belong to me. And I need to hold some healthy space for what doesn't belong to me here. It belongs in my heart because it does affect me as a global citizen and because all of these shifts that are happening are going to resonate forever in some ways. And how do I know that and care about it without taking it on as mine, which is something that I just worry we have, as Americans, been taught is always available to us. That everything is ours. 

[00:34:15] And I don't I don't want to perpetuate that in my personal reaction to all of this. And if that sounds harsh, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to really critically and honestly assess how I'm responding to a pretty unprecedented conflict in my lifetime. It's not that this is the first war. It's not that this is the only instance, even now in the world of the aggressive use of violence in a totally senseless situation. But all of the dials moving around it makes it feel, as you've said, a number of times Sarah,  just different. And centered in my mind, and I want to make sure I'm processing it in a more conscientious way than I might have at another time in my life. 

Sarah [00:35:11] Yeah, because I do feel like there's a way to take on Zelinsky in a way that absolves American responsibility for this conflict.  And I don't want to do that even though I am way past unhealthy when it comes to my emotional attachment to Zelinsky. But I definitely think you're right. And look, the truth is, there's leadership here you can root for. The Biden administration is doing an incredible job, an incredible job of supporting Ukraine, leading the Western response, arguing for, advocating for, enforcing economic sanctions against Russia. So there's things here to root for. And, again, there's plenty. We don't have to turn this into something that's not. And, I mean, in a way, he is. You know, Zelensky belongs to the Ukrainian people. But as global citizens, I think we all feel the sense that they are fighting for something bigger than Ukraine. 

[00:36:16] There is a lot on the line here. We all feel that. But I think you're right. I think taking ownership of something that does not belong to us, that's what led us to the old mess, right? That's what led us to the mistakes that got us in this place where if the United States doesn't send it's military it's not worthwhile, like, it's not something real, nothing's on the line. That's what led us to this point where the imbalance between democracies and authoritarian countries was dangerous, and so I think we need to be careful not to to walk down that same road again. So as we are here now on Monday afternoon recording, the peace talks have ended at the Belarusian border and each party has gone back to consult with their governments. 

[00:37:05] There was tragic bombing of the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. Zelensky has signed an application to apply to NATO. There are lots of developments and there will be lots more. And we appreciate you coming here to Pantsuit Politics to help us process them and to help you process them. Up next, we wanted to end with an incredibly empowering conversation we had with Melody Bray, candidate for state Senate in Georgia. We are thrilled to be here with Melody Bray, first time candidate for Georgia State Senate District 38. 

Melody Bray [00:37:51] That's right. 

Sarah [00:37:52] Melody, welcome to Pantsuit Politics. 

Melody Bray [00:37:54] Thank you for having me. 

Sarah [00:37:56] So as you know, we're using Colin Woodard regional framework, Georgia's in the Deep South as a surprise to absolutely no one. It really represents a lot of the things we think about when we think about the Deep South. It's a slave owning oligarchic history. It's a focus on individual liberty and aversion to government regulation, unless it's to support those oligarchic people in power. You see that even in recent Georgia history, like with SB 202, the voting legislation passed last year. On the other hand, Georgia, and I think as you as a candidate are such a perfect manifestation of this, is changing. 

[00:38:34] Obviously, it went blue in 2020. It has not one, but two Democratic senators. Not a thing I ever thought I'd be saying about Georgia in my lifetime. In the 90s, I remember we used to call it like the new South. I don't really think that label works anymore because I don't know how long you can use new and it's still relevant. But I do think it's changing. And I think that's undeniable because the demographics of the South are changing. And as a candidate and as a Georgian,  where do you see that? What does that look like in District 38? 

Melody Bray [00:39:02] Well, one thing I'd say is that people really are like latching on to that line that Georgia turned blue. Georgia turned blue at the top of the ticket. So when we roll down to the lower like state Senate, for instance, like what I'm running in, our county commissions and our school boards, we're looking at red there. So I'm living in a reality of Georgia still being purple. We've got these kind of blue chips, chocolate chips in our cookie here. But we are not -- I push back on that, we're firmly now all of a sudden we're a blue state because, to me, that means we don't have any work to do, we've arrived. We have not arrived. 

Sarah [00:39:44] Right. And that's the representation of the region too. Like, the South is changing. That doesn't mean it's changed. 

Melody Bray [00:39:49] Correct. Correct. And it doesn't also mean that the pendulum won't swing back and forth when you're walking into such a deep history of how we relate to government from both, whether you're the slave or the slave owner. Both of those people have a very specific relation to government, and that will always be at play here, in my opinion. 

Sarah [00:40:12] And you come from a history of grassroots organizing. So how do you see that in your district? What does that changing look like in some very specific sort of issues? 

Melody Bray [00:40:22] In some ways, what's old is still new again. So that kind of civil rights, do we just burn the whole thing down and start over kind of your Malcolm X type folks vs. do we engage the process because  we've all, whether you like it or not, have bought into a particular system and this is the way the systems run, so you got to get into the system to change it? Obviously, if I'm running for office, we know which party I'm in, you know. But I think there's this healthy dynamic down here because we've had to live in that dynamic for so long. So I'm a grassroots organizer going out, you know, knocking door to door, engaging people, educating them on how they can engage the process. But I also appreciate that there are folks around me who are constantly pushing against whether I should even be doing that. It forces me to keep reevaluating how best to engage to actually make an impact. 

Beth [00:41:25] We had a conversation recently about activism and about how you can share goals and differ on strategies and tactics. And I think that your point about Georgia turning blue at the top in the last election but not all the way down the ballot, really emphasizes that being smart about tactics is important in campaigning because we often think, well, change is easiest to make at that local level first and then it rolls up. So how are you thinking about Georgia as a place where you're hoping that change can roll down the ballot instead? 

Melody Bray [00:41:56] What I'm hoping is that it feels like people are going to vote if they feel like their vote counted. So my biggest worry when we were running through 2020 and through the runoffs for Congress was that if it didn't work, if people didn't get what they perceived as the best outcome, this was our last chance of motivating folks. So being able to point to people at the top and say, "Listen, we said, please get out their vote and your vote will be counted and we will have the outcome that we're working toward," it makes it easier for me to say we can do that on the state level too. Because we were able to do it on the federal level, I just need you to engage on the lower level to get the same results. 

Sarah [00:42:39] The incumbent that you are running against hasn't cast a single vote in two years. When I heard you say that on another interview, I gasped out loud audibly. How does that happen? What do you see systematically that contributes to that? And I'm sure she's not the only one, and I think it speaks to exactly what you're saying when people feel like it doesn't matter. It's harder to motivate and convince them. And looking at a statistic like that, you can see how people end up in a space of it doesn't matter. 

Melody Bray [00:43:05] And I think it's interesting because when I speak to constituents, they say, "Is that allowed? Can she do that? Shouldn't she be fired?" And it's this disconnect that I have to point out. They work for us. We fire them. So there's not this trigger within the system that some sort of, you know, the lieutenant governor comes down and says you got to go. This is how it was all set up, if we don't like someone's vote record or lack a vote record, it's on us to then say we need another person who's actually going to show up for us. So I hope that when I'm out there talking to people to be able to make the connection of these are not people up in an ivory tower somewhere, these are our employees. And that's how we should be engaging with them, setting expectations and then holding them accountable for those expectations that we set. 

Beth [00:43:57] So we're talking to you in this framework of the influence of place on us. I love how your website opens the bio with. I am a first generation Jamaican immigrant born in Canada, bred in Miami and now living and loving Metro Atlanta. And I'm wondering how that background influences the way that you understand your district. How do you connect yourself to this place? 

Melody Bray [00:44:20] My district's very kind of long and narrow, and it cuts through the city of Atlanta and also encompasses some of the suburbs to the north in the South and a bit to the West as well. And because of that, it's extremely diverse. Whether you're talking about ethnicity, you're talking about people who have been born and raised here versus people who've moved into the city of Atlanta, how much people make, the fact that I can call to all of these different backgrounds. I feel kind of like a bit of a chameleon that you throw me into a room or a conversation, and it's easy for me to connect with people wherever they are because I was the person who had to come into a room with people who look different from me or had different backgrounds and figure out a way to make that connection. 

[00:45:12] So I think that it's an a big asset for me. We also have a number of people to the North who are not native. We have a good immigrant population here in the metro area that bring in a lot of their food and their culture and their work ethic and all of those things that kind of created this beautiful tapestry to our Metro Atlanta area. And to be able to be a part of that and also represent that in the Senate, I mean, that's just that's a dream to me. That's a dream. 

Sarah [00:45:46] Well, how do you deal with, you know, that diversity across the district when I know you've worked extensively in housing, you focused on that. So are the housing issues, is it this one that there's a lack of affordable housing and no matter what diverse part of the district you're in that's the same? Or is it playing out in different ways that people might not expect? 

Melody Bray [00:46:08] Hmm. So I would say it is the same regardless of what your background is, how much money you make, it just differs in what you're looking for. So I'm also a real estate agent. I'm working with two income white collar clients who in by all measures have plenty of money. But they're also feeling kind of the strain of finding the housing in the school district that they're wanting their kid to be in or near the work place that they're wanting to be in. Which is a very different concern than the folks that are applying for housing vouchers and are waiting in this long waitlist line and then they finally get their housing voucher, and there aren't landlords offering housing to folks with vouchers, which is a huge issue here in the Metro area. So it looks different, but the psychosis is still the same for both of them of how do I afford what I need to feel comfortable and provide for my family? 

Beth [00:47:10] And where do you see the state legislature having a role there? What  would you like to see done on the housing front? 

Melody Bray [00:47:16] So one of the things that I think people don't think about -- I'd say two. One is that, particularly in the housing voucher area, it really is a women's issue of over 80 percent of our voucher users are female-led households. And so I would love for kind of the women's groups that take up things that are very specific to us, to latch on to housing and put their power behind that. To push for housing because it really will affect women and children distinctly. But secondly, in Georgia, there really is a city rural divide that is felt in the Legislature. There's kind of an anti Atlanta sentiment. If you listen to our governor's state of the state last year, any time you spoke negatively about Atlanta, there were literally like claps and hurrahs from the gallery. 

[00:48:10] And yet still, you have something like housing, which in rural Georgia is also a problem. Affordable housing, housing that's in proximity to amenities like --  I hate, even using the word amenities for things like a hospital right or a school. Like, we're not talking about, you know, the fun stuff, we're talking about the basic things, yes, that people need. That's a problem in rural, just like it is in in the metro area, it looks different. But in the end, again, how people feel about it is the same. So what I would love is for both city and rural legislators to find common ground there that meets both of their constituents that look different but are dealing with the same problem. 

Sarah [00:48:54] So Georgia is a very interesting place. When we talk about voting rights, we mentioned SB 202 at the top of the interview because it's the manifestation of the supposed local issue with massive local impacts and also a representation of this national conversation. The president, the vice president, recently came to Georgia to push for voting rights legislation. We know that legislation didn't go anywhere in the Senate. So I'm wondering, as someone who's worked so hard in voter turnout and is now running for office, where do you see this going next? Both as a local Georgian and someone who's worked on, sort of, the national landscape? 

Melody Bray [00:49:35] So I would say on the local level, we have always had barriers to voting and we always overcome them. I'm not discouraged necessarily by the legislation. You made the mistake of showing us your playbook two years in advance. So I'm not concerned there. 

Beth [00:49:56]  What a beautiful perspective. I just had to sink that for a minute.

Sarah [00:49:58] I know, right? I was like, let me stop there. You all want to keep that. Go ahead. It might just take a minute. That's cool. Okay, now we've all let it soak in. 

Melody Bray [00:50:06] Thank you. But I think it's entirely true. And the folks of the South are extremely resilient people and they will figure it out, and we will do that. On the federal level, help is needed. I don't see there being -- with the current Supreme Court makeup, even if there is somehow some sea change of congressional approval for any level of a Voting Rights Act, I don't know how that stands. I mean, I'm a lawyer as well. 

Sarah [00:50:42] No, melody. See, they want to know what Congress wants to do as soon as Congress passes it. You know, that's what they say in all the opinion. It'll be fine. A hard fact. It'll be fine. 

Melody Bray [00:50:49] It'll be fine. Put a bow on it. We done. I just don't know how that works. In order to even get to the point of Supreme Court, we've got to get through Congress. And I don't see -- I mean, midterms aren't looking good right now. So that means we're talking about a minimum of two to three cycles between now and then. And the latest Supreme Court justices are really young. So if it's not done on the local level, I don't know where it gets done. And that's just the reality of it to me. 

Sarah [00:51:26] And in that hopeful side of that is that's how it's set up to be done on the local level. It's not like we have to fight for power on the local level. So there is that. 

Melody Bray [00:51:34] Correct. And it is easier to maneuver on a local level than it is kind of writing this massive federal cargo ship trying to get it to point another direction. That's where grassroots organizing comes in. That's where they play a role. 

Sarah [00:51:48] You've pivoted from grassroots to running for office. I love how you talk about running for office is not an individual decision. How did you get there? How did you go from point A to point B to being someone on the ballot? 

Melody Bray [00:51:59] So you had mentioned that my opponent having not voted. What really got me here was that I was out trying to educate folks on how to maneuver around all these voting obstacles. And I was curious as to where she landed on SB 202. And when I realized she hadn't voted on it, that's what made me look back at the rest of the voting record and realize, oh my, you haven't voted. So speaking to my community, you know, I'm a single woman. My community are the people who keep me alive on the day to day basis, keep me sane and grounded. 

[00:52:41] And to look at them and say, number one, do you think that I should do this? And also of equal importance, is there someone else who would be better suited? You know, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. And in letting people speak into that for me and being honored by the response overwhelmingly, folks saying, "I can't imagine anyone else doing that, I think you supposed to do that," which is just a gift. I mean, honestly, it's just a gift to hear people who know you and love you to say that. And it also keeps you going when campaigns are tough. 

Beth [00:53:25] I hope everybody in our audience who's listening right now, who's thought I can never run for office parks and listens to what you just said because you can encourage somebody else to run for office if that's not you. And I love that. I want to ask you how COVID 19 has changed your district. You are on the ground as connected as you can be, and very pragmatic clearly about what's going on and clear eyed. So what do you see there? 

Melody Bray [00:53:50] Well, the practical aspect of, you know, hospitalizations and deaths we're -- even though we're in the south, we're not actually not at the top in the rankings on either of those, are kind of middle of the road, if you will, not saying that's good. Just saying that is what it is. I'd say, just like everyone else nationally, hospitality here, the folks are understaffed and overworked. We have a number of plants here. We have a big chicken industry, peanut industry, cotton industry. We've had kind of a rise in workers strikes or folks threatening to strike due to conditions that were there pre-COVID, but were exacerbated by COVID. 

[00:54:35] And this kind of great resignation, giving people a little bit of encouragement to go ahead and say out loud what they've been thinking or talking about around the water cooler. So we've definitely seen that people might not know. But Georgia has. I believe we're 8th in the number of Fortune 500 companies for states. And Atlanta specifically is number three in the nation. And so we've got a lot of white collar remote work that are carrying on as though, you know, nothing's really different other than I don't go into the office. And you can feel that out on the roads and the restaurants and all that kind of thing. 

Sarah [00:55:12] Yeah. When you were talking about the state of the State where you said was based on Atlanta, I thought, well, bet he cashes that tax revenue. No problem. Wihout an issue. 

Melody Bray [00:55:20] There you go. We actually have a massive budget surplus this cycle because we didn't have people having to stop working. They just worked from home. So I believe we've got about a $3 billion with a B surplus from tax revenue year over year. 

Sarah [00:55:39] Wow. Melody, this has been a delight. Thank you so much for coming on here. Tell everybody how they can support your campaign. 

Melody Bray [00:55:44] Absolutely. Head to brayforgasenate.com. And I encourage you to take a look at the policy priorities page there to see what I'm about and the things that I'm pushing toward. And if those things resonate with you, I would ask you to donate. And thanks for listening. 

Beth [00:56:01] Melody, I want to ask you one more question because you are a lawyer, real estate agent and activist, so I know you're going to knock this out of the park. 

Melody Bray [00:56:09] Okay. 

Beth [00:56:09] What is the sales pitch for Atlanta? What is the best reason people should come to Atlanta, move to Atlanta, visit Atlanta? 

Melody Bray [00:56:15] Hmm. So there is a sweatshirt that goes around town that says Atlanta influences everything from your hip hop, to your art, to the clothes that you wear and the food that you eat. So if you want to see where all of those things come from and how Atlanta is in your life, even when you don't know it, well, come on down. Look me up. Let's go get a drink. 

Beth [00:56:38] Well done. I love that. Thank you. My husband's from Decatur, so I spend a lot of time in Atlanta 

Melody Bray [00:56:42] What? Big up to Decatur. 

Beth [00:56:44] Decatur high school graduate. Truth is I don't know what year he graduated.

Melody Bray [00:56:48] Love it. 

Sarah [00:56:50] Thank you to Melody for joining us today. Thank you to all of you for coming here during this historical time and being in conversation with us. We appreciate every single one of your emails and comments on social media. Again, don't forget to mark your calendars for our live show in Waco, Texas, on Saturday, April 30th, so we can be in person and process things face to face. How wonderful will that be? You can get your tickets through the link in our show notes. We will be back in your ears on Friday and until then, keep it nuanced ya'll. 

Beth [00:57:30] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:57:35] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:57:41] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:57:45] Martha Bronitsky, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[00:58:01] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stiggers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Valelli, Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whited. 

Beth [00:58:20] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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