Russia Invades Ukraine

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Transcript

Rachel Vindman [00:00:00] My husband is retired Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, who was on the July 25th phone call with President Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelenskiy when President Trump made the infamous request, I need you to do us a favor, though. And immediately after leaving that phone call in the White House Situation Room, he walked to the office across the hall from his in the Eisenhower Executive Building, and he reported the phone call as being inappropriate and wrong. 

Sarah [00:00:38] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:39] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:41] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics, we are here today to help each other, and all of you process the heartbreaking developments in Ukraine. On Wednesday, before the invasion, we had a conversation with Rachel Vindman, wife of Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman and the co-host of The Suburban Women Problem about Russia and Ukraine. And we're going to share a portion of that conversation here today as well. And then we'll end the show talking about how we're discussing this news with our kids. Before we get started, I did want to share that my children are home from school today, and I have some construction going on around my house today of all day. So if you hear some random noises, that's what it is. So after the break, we'll discuss the latest developments and then share our thoughts on Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 

Beth [00:01:47] We woke up Thursday morning to a host of news about Ukraine, and we'll recap that briefly with the knowledge, as we're recording here on Thursday afternoon, that this situation is developing quickly, is extremely fluid, and things might have changed significantly by the time we hear this episode. But we want to tell you what we know now and start to think through it. The first thing to understand is that Ukraine is under strike from land, from air, by sea. Russian troops are coming into the country from Belarus in the north, Russia in the east, and Crimea in the south. I thought this was really helpful perspective from the dispatch, they wrote, "On the ground in Ukrainian cities thus far, the situation might best be summed up with one word -- lines. Lines to get cash out of the ATM. Lines to pick up prescriptions at the pharmacy. Lines to fill up at the gas station." Thousands upon thousands of cars were seen stuck in traffic Thursday morning, attempting to leave Kyiv and head west toward Poland and away from Russia. That perspective on what people in Ukraine are doing and facing right now helped me get a better sense of what an invasion means. 

Sarah [00:02:55] And also lines to sign up and fight. There was a picture in the New York Times, and I'm choking up just thinking about it of a room full of adults sitting there like in coats that look like mine on cell phones that look like mine waiting for instructions on how to go defend their country. The stress and the intensity on their faces, it took my breath away. 

Beth [00:03:18] You can tell that Ukraine is a country that has been dealing with Russia for a very long time and dealing with Russian aggression and violence for a very long time. And there is a real era of defiance that President Volodymyr Zelensky reportedly does not have plans to evacuate. He issued an address in Russian directly to the Russian people. He said he knew that they wouldn't see it on Russian TV, but he hoped it would get to them. And he said, "We don't want this." And what I really appreciated in his appeal to the Russian people is is how he said, "Here's what's going to happen. War is pain, blood, mud and death. It is a grave tragedy, and that tragedy has a great cost in all senses of the word. We know for sure we do not need a war. Not a cold one, not a hot one, not a hybrid one. But if these forces attack us, if you attempt to take away our country, our freedom, our lives, the lives of our children, we will defend ourselves -- not attack, defend. And in attacking you are going to see our faces -- not our backs, our faces." 

Sarah [00:04:22] I thought his speeches, both to the Ukrainian people and to the Russian people, were so intense. And I think about this man who several years ago was a comedian, and now this is the moment that history has found him. I was really struck by a sentence in his speech to the Russian people where he said, "We are different, but we don't have to be enemies." I understand that in an authoritarian country the state media is powerful, but I also have to believe that the internet is powerful, and I hope that his message gets out there. And I believe to a certain extent it will. 

Beth [00:04:57] I hope so, too. We are in a a fraught moment. There are lots of statements coming out from world leaders. There are very courageous statements being made by world leaders of countries that share real proximity with Russia. Estonia. Finland. Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have already triggered NATO's Article 4, which requires member states to consult when the territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened. Of Member States, I'm going to talk next week on More To Say quite a bit about NATO and about what those NATO articles mean in the history of NATO and how things could unfold from here. We do know that we're expecting crushing sanctions. The EU has said these are going to be the harshest sanctions we've ever implemented. I think it's difficult as a citizen to really think through what sanctions mean. But you'll hear Rachel Vindman say in the course of our conversation with her that they are a form of hard power. They're imposing economic consequences. That's real. It is not a statement. There is something real about that. 

Sarah [00:06:07] And they'll be real for everybody. I think we have adopted this expectation that sanctions only work if they are highly targeted, punish the bad guys and nobody else. But the truth is, sometimes they're effective when they make the lives of the people in the country harder and they're going to make our lives harder. They're most certainly going to make the lives of Europeans harder because of the way their energy resources are tied up with Russia. But I do want to say, as we talk about how the sanctions affect the Russian people, I do want to take a moment and make sure that we are delineating and differentiating very clearly and purposely the people of Russia from the leadership of Russia. I sat down with Griffin for the News Brief this morning and we talked about that, that the Russian people are not Vladimir Putin, whether they live here, whether they live in Russia, whether they've chosen to stay or leave. I just think as much as we can, we need to to speak that out loud in our conversations that what Vladimir Putin is doing is a war crime, and is wrong, and dangerous, and is going to cost lives. 

[00:07:21] But that does not mean we saddle every Russian citizen with those actions, and that we, again, as much as we can, as often as we can make that distinction. But, Beth, I am wondering how you're thinking about Vladimir Putin in this moment. I thought The Daily had a really good breakdown of his speech earlier this week. And how, more than we ever have, because he was clearly very emotional and very angry, we got insight to where he's coming from. Because usually he's a black box, like, he is very tight lipped and closed off and it's hard to interpret his actions, but we got a window and it felt different. And the speech felt different, and now the actions feel different. This is not another Crimea or Georgia. This feels different, and I wonder how you're thinking about Putin in particular. 

Beth [00:08:17] I feel a little bit of conflict in myself, similar to some conflict that I have felt about other world leaders and how I constantly feel about former President Trump. How much do I want to try to understand the psychology of this person? How much does that matter? I think it matters a lot for people making decisions about how to engage him or not and how to deal with their diplomatic counterparts in Russia. It makes a lot of sense to me that the groundwork for this has been being laid for years and years. It makes a lot of sense to me that this happened now as opposed to a few years ago, because that groundwork was still being put down. Because in many ways, the 2016 election and the 2020 election in the United States had a ton of upside for Putin in terms of political divisions in the United States that make it safer for him to try something like this in the world. So I think I understand the timing with respect to how he has put all the pieces on the board to prepare for this, and his own age, and what he aspires to accomplish in his lifetime -- and even more pragmatically, the weather, and it being the time of year when he can best move troops in without dealing with lots and lots of mud and conditions on the ground that make military action harder, I think he's learned a lot. 

[00:09:46] The description of how Russian troops are converging on Ukraine reminds me so much of the description of the Taliban forces converging in Afghanistan as soon as the American military was due to start leaving there. So those are the factors that I have been thinking about with respect to Putin. I really strongly agree with you when you talk about differentiating Putin from the Russian people, and I just think it is impossible as an American citizen who has not lived abroad to understand what it's like to live under someone like Putin. And I agree with you, I hope that the power of the internet gets this message to the Russian people. I think the thing that gives me the most hope in this situation is that the Ukrainian people have that media access and have for a long time in the scope of current events. They've had that access and are determined and resolved. And Ukraine is big. It is territorially big. It's the biggest country that has all of its landmass in Europe. And so to talk about this in the defeatist terms that we're hearing from some members of Congress and some members of the media, I find foolish. I find it foolish. 

Sarah [00:11:09] I do not like that. I do not like it at all. It makes me very angry. As if these people don't remember Afghanistan under either Russian occupation or American occupation, or, I don't know, Vietnam. It's not like there aren't examples of when a overpowered nation that had a lot on the line held their ground. And I really dislike the way it's just like, well, Russia can if they want to. And it's not just even for members of Congress, it's members of the media. And I want them to shut up. I don't like that at all. I think it's wrong to talk about it like that and and ahistorical. 

Beth [00:11:47] I think it's both true that the Russian military possesses incredible might, and true that a people that want to govern themselves are formidable. And the Ukrainian people are formidable. And so I don't think we know what's going to happen here. And that's just to connect this back to your question to me, Sarah, I know  took a path around it. But as I think about Putin, I don't want to build him up as a mastermind or reduce him as a thug because I think he has both of those things in a lot of respects. And in some ways it doesn't matter right now. One of the best pieces I've read about this this week came from Jonathan V. Last at Tthe Bulwark, where he said, "You know, the thing about Putin is that he's a realist." There are people who tweet about how he's like a mad man, he's lost touch with reality because he's rewriting history and his statements. And this writer said, "Listen, what Putin understands is that reality is a tank." Like reality is not a treaty, and it's not a United Nations Committee meeting that Russia is chairing, you know. 

Sarah [00:12:52] Oh, my god. 

Beth [00:12:54] Reality is a tank sometimes. And he is willing to bring his tank out now. And I am trying to just kind of back away from everywhere else. The psychology of Putin almost doesn't matter now because we have not deterred him. So what comes next? And how do we face that reality in ways that are thoughtful and reflective as much as we can be about the consequences of every action that's taken from here on out? 

Sarah [00:13:21] Yeah, know the only way I can think about Vladimir Putin is through my perspective as an American citizen. And, you know, the first thing I think about, if I'm being honest, is Donald Trump and his responsibility for this current moment, and I believe he holds a great deal of it as reflected by those statements from those members of Congress and the shift in the right wing media. And, you know, for everybody who was wondering during the impeachment why is this such a big deal? Why are we talking about a phone call with the Ukrainian president? Well, this is why. This is why it was a big deal. This is why he should have been impeached because it was a big deal, and now people are going to die. Now, I am not hyperbolic, although I have that tendency, I understand that Donald Trump is not the sole cause of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And that there were many, many, factors at play far before his presidency. I get that. 

[00:14:23] But let's not fool ourselves, like, this did matter. It did matter. And so I'm thinking about that and thinking about how incredibly grateful I am that Joe Biden is president right now, someone who's been dealing with Vladimir Putin, who thinks, I think, about American involvement in the world through a very clear eyed perspective, not just through the importance of democracy, but the risk of engagement. I'm very thankful for that. There are benefits to having a 78-year-old president and this is one of them. It is impossible, I think, not to consider our past. And, you know, moments, invasions, our past invasions of other countries. I mean, I can make a better statement or use a more careful word, but those were the words we used. And we talked a lot about this on More To Say. And I feel a little less angry now that I've gotten my initial like, how dare you compare these two things and act like they're the same off my chest? But I don't think it's wrong to think about that. I do think it's wrong to act like it's an it's a conversation ender instead of a conversation starter. And so I'm not interested in people trying to shut down any conversation about what America's role is in this conflict by saying, "Well, we've done it too," because I think that's lazy and I think it is insincere. 

[00:15:50] It's a lot. And I think I just have to remind myself that as an American citizen, like you said, this is a role for the government and this is a role for experts, and we do have to trust them to a certain extent. But I think that in some ways, earlier this week, as an American citizen, there was lots of geopolitical conflict that both affected me and didn't. And that has not changed. And in other ways, things have changed. And because of the history of World War One and World War Two, because of our alliances in Europe, this is different. And I think we just have to acknowledge that difficult reality and follow the news and understand it's important and understand, you know, we still live in a democracy. And so it is important to stay informed and watch what's happening and engage with your fellow citizens because it is important, but that there is a limited list of action items available to us. And that is really hard when you see people suffering like you see the Ukrainian people suffering. 

Beth [00:17:03] I have sort of a physical queasiness, and I've had it all morning, about how to talk in realistic and constructive terms about American politics related to what's happening in Ukraine. Because I have always believed that politics ends at the water's edge is the best approach, and I also recognize that that has not been the situation for us for quite some time, maybe it's never been. And so I both think there is truth in your analysis of Donald Trump as a factor and where we are now and what options everybody has right now. And I feel kind of like yucky about talking about that. I think there is real importance in what's going on inside of the Republican Party as far as its approach to foreign policy and its approach to illiberalism. And I feel kind of yucky talking about that. 

[00:18:04] So it's helpful to me to sit down to talk with Rachel Vindman. She is one of the co-host of the Suburban Women Problem Podcast. She also is the spouse of Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, who was a key witness in the impeachment trial of former President Trump related to his call with the president of Ukraine. And she discusses her relationship to Republican politics in this conversation and also her personal understanding, from having spent some time living in Moscow, of what's unfolding. So here is Rachel Vindman. And we're so thrilled to be here with Rachel Vindman of the Suburban Woman Problem from Red Wine & Blue. Rachel, the first line of the description of your podcast strikes a chord with me because it says you thought that you would be forever a card carrying member of the GOP. Me too. And they didn't even come after my husband the way that you have experienced. So we're excited to talk with you today. 

Rachel Vindman [00:19:09] Well, thank you for having me. And we're also going to have you as guest on the Suburban Women Problem. So thank you for joining us. 

Beth [00:19:17] Thank you. We appreciate it. 

Sarah [00:19:18] Well, before we got started, you know, we had all these nice plans, and before we started recording, you're like, "Well, Tucker Carlson attacked my husband last night." Now, Rachel, I don't make it a habit to watch Tucker Carlson. You're going to tell us that in a little bit. 

Rachel Vindman [00:19:30]  That's why I didn't find out until afternoon of the next day because I don't care. You know, I think  it's continuing part of this narrative that they have of we are sending -- you know, or the desire is to send our sons and daughters to fight for Ukraine. And that is a continuation of Vladimir Putin's lies. And when I lived in Moscow, that song, we know you're lying because your lips are moving, and every time it would come on or I would hear it I would dedicate that to Vladimir Vladimirovich. And Putin speech on Monday when he just lied, and then it was amazing that he just made up history. 

[00:20:19] But then the Republican Party and their minions went all in as if, "Yes, this is proof. Didn't you hear what he said? You should read it. You should listen." Okay, that's great. But it's all lies. So maybe you shouldn't listen because you're not verifying what he's saying. I mean, it might sound good, and it might sound like a reason, although I don't think they really want to do this, of giving countries back to their historical provenances because I don't think that is -- we could take this really far because we're talking back to, you know, the 11th century or before for Ukraine. So  I don't think they want to do that with Western Europe and the United States and the rest of the world to take it back to to that. 

Beth [00:21:12] So can we just back up a second for those who don't know, you very casually dropped that you lived in Moscow? Let's hear a little bit about you and your background, especially for folks who are a world away from the moment when your family was really in the spotlight.

Rachel Vindman [00:21:29] My husband is retired Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, who was on the July 20th phone call with President Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelensky, who when President Trump made the infamous request, I need you to do us a favor, though. And immediately after leaving that phone call in the White House Situation Room, he walked to the office across the hall from his in the Eisenhower Executive Building, which was the attorneys for the National Security Council. He was assigned to the National Security Council at the time. And he reported the phone call as being inappropriate and wrong. So he testified later. He was subpoenaed and testified in front of the House Intelligence Committee behind closed doors and then also in a public hearing for the first impeachment process in hearings of President Donald Trump. 

[00:22:26] Prior to that, we are really normal people. I mean, we still are normal people. But we are a very boring, normal people who are just lived in suburban Washington, D.C., and my husband is a Foreign Area Officer. So we lived both in Kiev, Ukraine and Moscow, Russia assigned to the embassies there. So I'm not a national security expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I am pretty well versed in that area of the world and understand what's happening just from a civilian perspective, if you will. And then I listen to my husband talk, so I guess I have some through osmosis, but certainly not an expert, just a well-informed citizen. 

Sarah [00:23:13] Well, and I just think that moment the first impeachment seems forever ago, especially with the pandemic, right? But the truth is the through line, and I'm sure you can speak to this, the through line from that hearing and his concerns on that phone call to where we are right now with the, you know, increasing likelihood of an invasion of Ukraine is a pretty strong one. 

Rachel Vindman [00:23:39] It is. I mean, it definitely, definitely, is. It's hard for people to understand. And you guys do a great job. You know, I listen to your podcast, try to educate people, and that's what we try to do on the Suburban Women Problem as well. We try to educate listeners on topics that they wouldn't maybe encounter in their everyday life and break it down. Not because people aren't intelligent, just because we're busy and we don't have time to understand these really complex issues. But these aren't things that just happen one day, they build up and it happens over time. And when you have someone that's an authoritarian like Vladimir Putin, who can play the long game because he's not going anywhere, he's going to be in power for a very long time. So he doesn't have two years or four years and then face re-election and have to answer to anyone. He doesn't have to do that. 

[00:24:39] So he has been in power for a very long time. I don't know because, again, not a national security expert, I don't have this information off the top of my head. But he is getting older and I think it was like now or never. And why? Because my husband actually wrote this piece in foreign affairs, and it's kind of like this piece is a little bit like an extra. If you remember, we took it on vacation with us to the UK in November and then spent the holidays with this Thanksgiving, New Year's Christmas, Hanukkah, all of it. So it became just a really big part of our lives and our family life. But he addresses all these things and it's definitely worth a read. I'll probably put it in the show notes for the Suburban Women Problem, and you guys can do that too. But kind of trying to understand why now, and the why now is because Ukraine is slipping away from Russia's influence and they're becoming more western, which is something that Ukraine has always wanted to do. Western Ukraine, Lviv, where now most countries have moved their embassies, or at least European countries, United States and other similar European allies have moved to -- they probably had consulates in Lviv, if I were guessing, and they've moved their operations out of Kyiv. 

[00:26:04] And that was a times [Inaudible] for the Polish Empire, part of other Austria-Hungarian empire, so it's always unlike Russia proper. Ukraine has kind of walked this line between east and West. And I mean, they're still very much Slavic, but so are the Hungarians, and they're part of the EU and NATO. So it's not as cut and dry. And it's very difficult for us as Americans to understand because who only have a frame of reference for this sort of thing. It's just very different. And, again, it's not because people are not smart, but it takes some time to understand it. And I mean, I can appreciate it. I just don't have time to delve into, you know, thousands of years of history. And my husband's writing his dissertation now and I edit it, and I learn something every time. You know, each iteration I learn something more about the history of that world. It's a long and deep history. And to get the nuance, I mean, you have to be someone who understands it, and have studied it for a long time knowing. 

Beth [00:27:12] Yeah. Knowing all that you know, what do you make of the GOP's perspective on Ukraine right now, as expressed through someone like Tucker Carlson? 

Rachel Vindman [00:27:23] I don't know what I make of it, except I feel a deep sense of sadness because it seems to me right now that we're closer to our European allies than to some of our fellow countrymen on  where we feel on democracy or where we are on democracy and a country's right to self-determination. A people's right to self-determination. For the ideas and ideals that our great grandparents and generations before us have fought and sacrificed, I tweeted something earlier that we are like victims of our own success because nothing has been on our shores since 9/11, really. We haven't felt that here, and so we don't sense the danger. But also, you've never known the danger here of an authoritarian, of someone with absolute control like Vladimir Putin. It's it's hard to describe. Even me, I mean, I live there. But the chill that goes down your spine when I worked at a school and some of my Russian colleagues, and they would just stop talking and not say anything because they knew the rooms are bugged or their phones are bugged. Someone would hear if they said something. 

[00:28:45] That was during whenever they invaded Crimea. They especially got, you know, pretty sensitive to it then. So they wouldn't say anything against Putin, against his administration. But, you know, they wouldn't say anything bad. I've never felt that way. Never felt that way or hesitated to express displeasure or frustration about my government. And I just think too many Americans can't conceive of that. And so they caught this authoritarian light. If they think they're going to get something out of it, and I think that's what you see with -- I don't even know if they believe that it's right. But they know it will resonate with people because they've primed them to think this. So who knows if they even believe it, they're showmen. And I'm not convinced that they really feel this way, but they know it's like throwing red meat to ravenous lions. 

Sarah [00:29:39] Well, I'm going to shift and ask this question to both you and Beth, because there is a little to me discord within the Republican Party on this stance. Like, not everybody's where Tucker Carlson or J.D. Vance are. And so for both of you and Beth, as people who used to be in the Republican Party, what are the patterns you see that lead people one way? And what are the patterns you see that lead people the other way? Like what is the the source of this discord within the -- I think, particularly the sort of foreign policy stances or establishment within the GOP right now? 

Beth [00:30:19] I think a big part of being a Republican to me was always about love of country and a love of what America represents in the world, and a belief that there is a sense of responsibility attendant to being an American. And I think we have two different versions of how that gets expressed right now that are dividing Republicans. I think that the version of patriotism that still sits in the United States Senate, for the most part with long tenured members of the United States Senate, is that sort of bush era. Being an American means we protect democracy. Being an American means that we lead in the world, that we don't shrink back. That if that means using force, that's what it means and that's what we do. And I think that there is an understandable fatigue with that in the country and a distrust of that motivation. But that's the through line that I see as a former Republican. 

[00:31:23] And Tucker Carlson side, I think, starts with the reasonable question, how has that worked for us and what have the consequences been and how much have we all suffered because of it? Suffered in the American way because you can't compare American suffering to suffering throughout the rest of the world, right? But certainly our country has been led astray, I think, by some of those instincts that I just described. And so their version of patriotism now is defined. I would like to not say this pejoratively, but I feel it, so I'll be honest about that. I think it's defined by a sense of entitlement that American patriotism means that whatever feels the best here, and asks the least of us, is the path we should follow that's putting America first. So I think America First versus America as leader and responsible party might be the fracture that I'm trying to describe. 

Rachel Vindman [00:32:24] I like that. 

Beth [00:32:25] What do you think, Rachel? 

Rachel Vindman [00:32:27] First of all, I like the term of American suffering because I think it is a lot different than suffering that I have seen around the world. I mean, some of it is very real, but I think a lot of the suffering that people claim is just simply not that big of a deal. But I think the fracture it's perhaps a bit more practical. We do have some people that have spoken out, and that's kind of become their brand. Adam Kinzinger, who is retiring. Liz Cheney, it's definitely her brand. But some of the others, while personally -- and I spoke with many, many, Republicans during the impeachment and what was happening with our family, we were still residents. I was still a resident of Oklahoma and [Inaudible] because my husband's in the military. So my senators spoke with us, Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma, who did not say anything bad about President Trump, but he certainly voiced support for our family and concern. As well as he did say he disagreed with a lot of the comments that former President Trump made. 

[00:33:46] So I think he probably still feels the same way, maybe even more so. But it's a numbers game, and they simply cannot win without the vote of the MAGA group and the MAGA people. No enough to be dangerous, and no one is pushing back and trying to educate them and trying to inform them either not say anything, which I think was what most have chosen to do. And the other people that's their brand, is to just sensationalize and to be divisive. That's what they want. They're cheering them on in. The constituents are cheering them on in their hate. You know, there's a lot of anger. And I think we talk about that on our podcast a lot. Like people are just right at the tipping point and like anything, can take you to, you know, a 12 immediately like right out of the bat every day. And we haven't come down from COVID, from so much of what we've experienced over the past several years. And we we also don't recognize that fully and ourselves. 

[00:34:58] So they're praying upon this vulnerability this moment. And some of it, like, with Tucker Carlson Candace Owens, I think they're all just charlatans who are -- they are not important. But the elected officials, you know, I mean, there's this thing when people are elected officials they think, I have to stay. I mean, if I don't stay, no one else can do this. I'm the only person, you know, who can represent people. And I don't think they are bad or they even mean -- they don't have ill intentions. I really believe that most of them don't have ill intentions. But it's a danger that they. Feel like they have to silence and censure themselves so that they can remain in power because I'm not sure what that is, but I just don't think that's effective. I don't know. I can't think of the word for it, but it's dangerous to me. 

Sarah [00:35:53] We really appreciate Rachel joining us, and we had a much more extensive conversation that will be shared on her show, The Suburban Women Problem. So make sure and check that out. 

Beth [00:36:12] As we're wrapping up, Sarah, I wanted to talk more with you. I know that you shared a conversation that we will share in our feed of you discussing the Russian invasion of Ukraine with Griffin, who is 12. We have between us five kids. And certainly it's been a topic of conversation in my house for the last couple of weeks. You know, Ellen, especially, my six-year-old, will bounce into my office, "What are you working on, mom? Still, Ukraine? Okay" And so we've talked quite a bit about it around here. But one of our listeners, Chelsea, ask if we could spend some time really helping people think about the framework to have discussions about war with their children. 

Sarah [00:36:53] I have not discussed it as much with my seven-year-old, now seven-year-old, and 10-year-old, David asked about it and I'm not going to volunteer it until it comes up. But Griffin checks the news in the morning on his phone, so he was immediately talking about it. And so we had just a really open conversation. We talked about what he knew, which ushered what I knew. I gave him some additional information about NATO because, you know, if a 12-year-old's reading a news article, there's a lot in there that they don't understand. There's a lot I don't understand. So we kind of work through that and we talked about how it made us feel. 

[00:37:28] I think that's always my guiding light. Like, I just want to affirm like, yeah, it's scary. It's scary. It's heavy. It's hard. I even teared up a little bit, like I am now, with him, and I'm not afraid to do that because kids are smart. They know when you're feeding them a lie about something being okay when it's not maybe okay. And so I'm always trying to be honest with that. And I think it'll maybe come up with Felix and Amos, but I really let them lead the way. I answer their questions, but the second they're ready to move on, we move on. I don't keep plugging away at it. 

Beth [00:38:03] I totally agree with that. I do not proactively bring these things up with my my kids because I think their capacity to understand is always going to follow their interest. We talk about it because they ask me what I'm working on. Or they see we have an Echo Show in our kitchen, so an Alexa with a screen, and it has news headlines sometimes, and that prompts a lot of conversation in our house. One tip that I have is that if you do not already have a globe in your house, this is a good moment to get a globe. I find it really helpful to just -- we have a small globe here, to pull it off the shelf and trace with my finger. Here is where we are. Here is where this is happening. And most of the time that line that I trace is pretty far away. But even if it weren't, I feel like that is a good, neutral piece of information, and it can take the conversation in a lot of directions. And I try to follow where their mind is. 

[00:39:01] You know, so if we do that trace and they're ready to move on from Ukraine and say, "Oh, what's this? Or Where's that?" Then we go with that. But if they stay with me, the word that I have really focused in on lately that's been helpful to me as we talk about things that are scary, is different. So I think this is going to make things different, it could even make this globe different. A lot of what we're fighting about right now is where should these lines be that separate one country from another and who should be in charge within those lines? I imagine that the people of Ukraine, as they have bombs going off near them, feel very different today than they did yesterday. And that, I think, communicates trust. I'm being very honest about what's happening. But I also am leaving space for them to lead in terms of how do we feel about what's happening? 

Sarah [00:39:57] Yeah. And my conversation with Griffin I try to bring perspective, and then I try to bring as much empathy to say like, well, how would you feel? Or it's important to understand that this is different than how it is in America. We had a conversation -- very much informed by our conversation with Rachel Vindman about when you disagree with Vladimir Putin in Russia, you don't get caught out on Twitter, you go to jail. And that's an important thing to remember. And we talked about the Russian people being different than Vladimir Putin. And he was drawing connections to some of the stuff he's learning in social studies class. And he's trying to put the bigger picture together. And that's what I try to do is just not dove deep into what's happening, but just connected as much as I can to his life and what he's learning and what he understands and his perspective on the world. 

[00:40:47] And I think that's about as much as you can do, not just for kids, but for yourself. Is just gain as much perspective, think about it, you know, to the level that you can from your very limited life experience, and then move forward and hopefully spread as much as that understanding as you can to those around you. And I hope that that's what they do. I hope that when we have these conversations and it brings up -- I know that this has happened before when they have these conversations about other things that kids talk about. North Korea was like a big conversation in sixth grade for like a while. I don't know why, but it was something they were talking about a lot. And Griffin, you know, had talked about it with me. And so he had sort of a different understanding that I thought I was really proud of. And I was really proud of how he talked about it with his friends. And so that's all I'm looking for. Like, I just want him to have a little bit wider understanding, a little bit more empathy, a little bit more connection. 

Beth [00:41:44] Even before this invasion, Jane had heard World War three at school. Are we going to have World War three? And so we talked about the last World War happened before people were really using computers. We have computers a lot because of that World War. 

Sarah [00:42:04] I mean, like cars. I was thinking about watching everybody lined up to leave Kyiv. I was like, well, that's a new one. Lines of headlights trying to get out of somewhere. 

Beth [00:42:13] So I said the idea that we're going to replicate something that happened in a totally different time where everybody had access to completely different things, I think that's off. I think that misses a lot of important context. And I think this is very dangerous. And that we know Russia has spent a lot of energy learning how to manipulate computer networks. And I think that there could be a very different kind of World War that results from this, and we're going to have to watch what that means and learn as we go along. We can't be afraid of it. There's nothing that we can do about it sitting here right now. That fear doesn't lead us to any good action. The best thing we can do is learn and be prepared and then move on, right? And then we're done, that's enough. To your point, Sarah, about relating back to their situations, I think a lot about we had a conversation a long time ago with Kendra Adachi, who makes the Lazy Genius podcast, and I remember her saying dinner is a long game. 

[00:43:13] So you take pressure off every individual dinner because it is the cumulative effect of eating dinners as a family that that is going to kind of write the story of what dinner means for your kids. And I think that's true about these conversations. You know, yesterday, Jane and Ellen said to me -- they came in from school and they said, "It is so dumb that we have to wear our masks on the bus but not in our classrooms." And I said, "Yeah, kind of is. Kind of is damn. But here's why the federal government makes the rule about the school bus and the state government makes the rule about your classroom and the local school board decides what to do after the state government has come in. 

[00:43:50] And so we just get these little bits on who has the power in the situation and then we move on and they've picked that up and collected it. And in the long game of things, I hope that they have some good information and that they're developing as little citizens, you know, in in the best way that they're able to without it overwhelming our lives. So if we can do anything for you today, if you are a person who's influential in the life of young people, I hope it's just take some pressure off. You don't have to know all the answers about all this because they don't know enough to know all the questions about it yet. And that's okay. 

Sarah [00:44:25] I would also say that that is true, as we wrap up here, no matter whether you have little people in your life. This is about all we can ask of ourselves is play the long game, develop as citizens, answer the questions, we can and think of better questions in the meantime, and we hope we help you do that here at Pantsuit Politics. We'll be back in your ears on Tuesday, and until then, keep it nuanced y'all. 

Beth [00:44:58] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:45:03] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:45:09] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:45:13] Martha Bronitsky, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[00:45:29] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katie Stigers, Karin True, Onica Uveling, Nick and Alysa Valelli, Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whited. 

Beth [00:45:48] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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