Processing the Midterms and Prepping for Holiday Conversations

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Congressional Leadership

    • Nancy Pelosi

    • Kevin McCarthy

    • Mitch McConnell v. Rick Scott

  • The Lame Duck Session

  • Trump’s Announcement

  • Handling Political Conversations at the Holidays

  • Outside of Politics: Our Raleigh Trip

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EPISODE RESOURCES

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09]  And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Welcome to Pantsuit Politics. Next week, many of us will head home for the holidays. That means lots of people, lots of small talk-- my own personal worst nightmare. And lots of opportunities for politics to enter the conversation. We know this can be anxiety producing, so we are here to help you navigate those moments around the Thanksgiving table. But before we get to those tips, we're going to take a look at where we stand post midterms, what the next Congress will look like, what this Congress might still get done in a lame-duck session, we can't wait to tackle that. And Outside of Politics, we're going to share about our recent trip to Raleigh.  

Beth [00:00:57] Lots of travel means lots of listening time. And if you are eager to hear more from us, we would love for you to check out the audiobook for Now What How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything). We recorded this book in a different way. We take a different approach to the news here. We took a different approach to recording an audiobook. It was very challenging for everyone who worked with us. Thank you to the many people who navigated this process with us. But we recorded in studio together, so it really was like a continuance of the podcast, a big, broad conversation. There is a lot of storytelling in it. There is a lot of real emotion and personality. I hope that we brought to this product and we're very proud of it. So we hope that if you are looking for something to keep you company, you will check out the audiobook for Now What.  

Sarah [00:01:44] Before we get started, I wanted to say thank you for all the kind feedback that we got about me sharing my journey with psychedelics on the last episode. That was a different type of episode for us, and everybody who commented and shared the episode and reached out, it was really appreciated. I would also like to address some criticism we received, Beth. We've gotten a couple pieces of feedback recently that say, like, "I don't come here for these types of cultural conversations. I come here for the politics." And they've been kind. I'm not mad at these people. No one's said this or given us this feedback in an ugly way. But I do bristle a little bit at the term "that's what I come here for". It makes me feel like a store and we're not a store. We're two people having conversations about very vulnerable topics and not just drug use. But yes, our show has changed since the end of the Trump presidency, and I would be both embarrassed and bored if it had not changed. Politics has changed. It will continue to change, and I always want to change and shift along with it. And I take a pretty expansive view of what politics is. And so I just want to articulate that and not leave that criticism unanswered.  

Beth [00:03:03] What I love about this work that we get to do is that this week I read a Government Accountability Office report about the status of Air Force planes. And I read a bunch of court documents about Donald Trump that I might talk about next week. And we got to talk about the midterm elections and about your psychedelics, that that we are constantly in this enormous variety of subjects and I get to learn something always. Even when we as a team settle on a topic that I am personally not super enthusiastic about, I know that I will have the conversation with you and I will come away with something that sparks something for me, some insight, some learning about myself. The episodes where you are sharing a really personal story challenge me as a conversation partner. How do I show up in those episodes? So it's that stretching and growing that makes me want to keep being here. And that means that, yeah, sometimes we'll talk about something that I am not as excited about or something that's way outside what I had thought politics meant, but I'm so grateful for the freedom to have that container be really expansive. And I view it as a personal challenge to stay open and curious about whatever it is that we might show up here and discuss.  

Sarah [00:04:25] The guiding light for me has always been something you said the very beginning, which is politics is just about how we live together in community. And so under that rubric, those things are relevant. How people handle childcare is relevant, how people handle chronic illness is relevant, how people are using psychedelics in ways to enhance or manage real mental health issues like PTSD and treatment resistant depression is relevant. It's all relevant. Something we established from the beginning, particularly with the results of the 2016 election, is that voters don't come in and do some sort of policy arithmetic. They bring their whole selves to decisions about who they're going to vote for and who they're going to support. And we try to bring our whole selves here at Pantsuit Politics. I think it makes for more interesting conversations. I think it makes for a more impactful influence on each other to our listeners and how our listeners engage. And so I just wanted to articulate that and say that's appreciated. We love all feedback-- maybe not all feedback, but must be back presented kindly, which this was. But that's where we're coming from.  

Beth [00:05:28] Yeah, I hope this doesn't sound defensive at all as much as explanatory about how we think about our process and what we put out.  I understand that we make a lot of episodes and that they aren't all going to hit with every single person who tunes in. We really do respect your time, though, and we really do put a lot of thought into the flow of what we share with you and how much of it is really intellectual versus more personal versus more cultural. And I think that's why we have some people who have been with us since the very beginning. We were able when we were in North Carolina-- where I talk about at the end of the show-- to spend time with Bryn, who has been a listener since the very beginning of this show. And I don't know that he would still be here if we didn't do episodes that just let him and all of you know more about who we are as people instead of just as political analysts. So I appreciate that you hang with us and that you trust us enough to receive the hard feedback. And I hope that we respect that feedback by coming back to you to say here's how we are thinking through these issues.  

Sarah [00:06:36] All that to say now we're just going to do good old fashioned political analysis and talk about the midterm results and leadership elections. The election results are mostly in. We now know the Democrats held the Senate and Republicans have held the House of Representatives. That means leadership elections with a minor amount of intrigue on the side. Lame-duck legislation and John Fetterman in a suit, which is my actual favorite part. Beth, have you been watching the leadership elections? We both watched together. Nancy Pelosi just now announced that she will not be running for Democratic leadership. She will just be serving as a rank in file member of the House of Representatives. It was not a very long speech, but it made me cry.  

Beth [00:07:27] It was a lovely speech. It's amazing to me that they kept that so close that we were all refreshing Twitter constantly to find out what her decision was going to be. Even the reporting that she took two versions of a speech home yesterday, one in which she stepped aside and one in which she didn't. So kind of masterful orchestration of the optics till the very end. I love that she wore the white suit. I love that she's stepping aside. I love that she said everything has its season. I think it's extremely important to show that new leadership can come in and that she's supportive of that. I think it gives President Biden a nudge in a good direction. And I think she's leaving on a real high note, even though she lost the house this time. She didn't lose it by much. And the way that she has been held up by Republicans as a punching bag and even by some in her own caucus as a punching bag and has just rolled with that. It's very admirable. So good. Good for her.  

Sarah [00:08:27] I adore Nancy Pelosi. She's known for her oratory skills, but I love that she had this moment. And I thought the speech was really beautiful. In so many ways in American politics, Nancy Pelosi has become a caricature. From all the commercials, from all the punditry, she becomes a stand in. And she's just so much more. She's made of steel. And to watch her navigate that with such strength, to watch her lead and then particularly in these last few weeks, to see her suffering-- I mean, she teared up at the part of the speech where she talked about her husband-- I cannot imagine what that was like to feel in some way like they were coming for me and they found this beloved man who has stood by my side for decades. I just can't imagine. And I am hopeful that she feels the love and gratitude and appreciation. I think every American should watch that speech. The caricature of her is that she hates America. And the speech was a love letter to the United States Capitol and American democracy and public service and our Constitution. And it was just so beautiful. I don't think we talk enough about that. This is Nancy Pelosi's second act. And her first act was being a stay at home mom. She references that, like, I didn't know when I was a little girl and I came to the capitol for the first time that I would go from a homemaker to the House of Representatives. And I just think it is such an incredible American story. And the way she loves this work and the way she believes in it and has devoted her life to it came across really beautifully in this speech. And I want her to soak up all of that, the standing ovations from Democrats and Republicans, the mini retrospectives-- I'm sure that will come in the next few days about her career in leadership. I just love all of it. I even love that she said, "I've enjoyed working with three presidents," when she served under four. I loved all of it. Give it to me. Give give me all the Nancy Pelosi lookbacks. I think she is incredible and will go down in the history books as an essential, important figure in American history and in American politics.  

Beth [00:10:54] Even if you don't feel that way, if you feel none of that, if you've disagreed with Nancy Pelosi on everything and you mostly view her as a very shrewd political operator, which she definitely is, I think that you can respect in this moment the decision to step down. We have so few examples of people in very prominent positions of power at advanced ages stepping aside from the Supreme Court to the presidency to party leadership. It is a big deal that she's not running again when people wanted her to. Not everyone, but some people definitely wanted her to do this again. It would have been easy to justify, especially with Trump having announced that he's making another run for the presidency. And so I hope that however you have felt about Nancy Pelosi's career, that you can acknowledge anyone willing to surrender power when they don't have to is doing a service to the nation. And how wonderful that she is going to continue to represent her district for this term and also support someone new coming into that minority leader spot.  

Sarah [00:11:57] Well, and I think it's nice that she'll still be there. Also, I don't think it's going to be a difficult task. It'll be a nice on-ramp for the next leadership to navigate Kevin McCarthy's, who also has won his leadership election with the House Republicans, a very thin majority, with a very active and vocal hard right faction. So I think her being there and whoever the next leader will be will have a good intro to being in leadership.  

Beth [00:12:34] I think it's much easier to be in the minority than the majority always. And watching what's happening on Kevin McCarthy's side makes it even easier, I think, because what we've learned in the past few days affirms that Kevin McCarthy just wants to be the speaker. It doesn't matter what it costs. 

Sarah [00:12:56] And why? But why, just for the power?  

Beth [00:13:00] When you read people who have spent a lot of time with him, what comes across is a portrait of a name dropper, a person who just wants to have the pictures with the right people. Wants a  portrait in the hallway.  

Sarah [00:13:14] You're right.  

Beth [00:13:14] And good for him, because I think most people would be really tortured in the position that he's in right now. And I don't think he is tortured by it. All of these articles about how difficult this is going to be for him, I don't think so. I think he just wants the title and whatever else happens happens. He's going to have to beg, steal and borrow to get the additional 30 votes that he needs over the next few weeks to actually be the speaker because he won in the conference, but he didn't have the numbers that he needed to win the seat. A person who really wanted to advance the interests of the country would be thinking right now about who I want to bargain with.  You could maybe see him going to conservative Democrats and saying, "You want me or do you want someone out of the fringier elements of my party?" But there's no way he's going to do that. He's going to bargain with the fringes or elements of his party. And he's won some of the early skirmishes. There were proposals to really limit the power of the speaker and you can see some of those getting through, but not all of them. He's still going to get to appoint the committee chairs that he would still need the whole caucus to support removing him. But I don't know. I just think Kevin McCarthy is not nearly as upset about this as the headlines would have us believe, because I don't think he cares that much about what happens during his speakership as long as he gets to say he was in that role.  

Sarah [00:14:39] Yeah, I wouldn't do that job for love nor money. Pass, hard pass. But it seems like you're right. What matters to him is the title and the access to power and the multiple instances of him having to sacrifice his personal integrity to follow Trump or to follow the hard right seem not to matter to him. And I guess that is one way to move about in the world.  

Beth [00:15:05] It's probably an easier way to move about in the world than some other ways. I wouldn't want the job of the Speaker of the House, even if I had hand-selected every single member of the House of Representatives. You get that many people together with that much responsibility divided in such a deluded way across those members, no, thank you. That is a difficult, difficult task. And I think it's going to just be a circus for the next two years. I really do.  

Sarah [00:15:35] Yeah, I think that's right. We also had a leadership election in the Senate. They tried to delay it, that didn't work. Rick Scott announced that he was going to challenge Mitch McConnell. I'm not sure why because that challenge went down in flames and quickly. And now you just made Mitch McConnell mad, although I think he had already made Mitch McConnell mad.  

Beth [00:15:51] Well, Mitch McConnell was, like, how dare you talk about actual policy ideas when this election could just be us saying "We're not in charge. Everything sucks, but for us." I think it's interesting that Rick Scott mounted that challenge and then he was the only member of the Senate leadership team who lost his responsibility. Steve Daines will now run the Senate campaign arm for the party. Mitch McConnell, whatever else you have to say about him, knows what he's doing. And I got some insight I felt into the whole dynamic listening to Cynthia Loomis this week. Her quote has been everywhere about not wanting Trump to run again, where she said, "I know who the leader of the Republican Party is right now. It's Ron DeSantis, whether he wants to be or not." And I thought, you are a sitting United States Senator telling the press that the governor of Florida is the leader of your entire party. I think that's pathetic. But it's just a window into who everybody is kind of trying to convince right now. And Mitch McConnell has benefited so much by being able to just ride the sideline of that. He's not driving the media sphere. He takes some hits from them, doesn't hit back though. He just gets to kind of float alongside it. And it's gross in the same way that what we just discussed about Kevin McCarthy is gross. It also occasionally has some benefits for the American public that he's there and doing that. And so I don't know what to make of him still. I will never understand him as a human being. And today I just have to be happy that he's the minority leader, not the majority leader.  

Sarah [00:17:35] Well, and it's always important to remember in leadership elections that we're talking about policy and party strategy, but a huge component of that is fundraising. Nancy Pelosi is a prolific fundraiser. Mitch McConnell is a prolific fundraiser. It was his PAC that came in and save the day.  

Beth [00:17:49] And Kevin McCarthy is a prolific fundraiser, absolutely.  

Sarah [00:17:52] Attempted to save the day and did not actually get the terrible candidates he did not select elected. Although it's interesting, I think, to see like that will take you so far and not any further. Like, it doesn't prevent primary challenges. It doesn't permit primary endorsements from former President Trump.  

Beth [00:18:08] I do think it's going to talk about the money for a second and the fact that $16.7 billion went into these midterm elections to produce this really muddled result, to keep a lot of incumbents in their seats, to not give any party a mandate. We put so much money into this and voters basically preserved the status quo. I mean, the House changing to Republican control is a very big deal in terms of what it will produce over the next couple of years. But it's not going to produce legislative achievements because they're going to die in the Senate. So there's just so much money to have everything be sort of like about the same.  

Sarah [00:18:53] That analysis is hard to debate. I mean, you look at the numbers of incumbents who won. And also it feels weird (our new favorite word for the midterms, 2022) because, yes, we maintain the same but there was a real threat, right? There was this real election denying threat that Nancy Pelosi very beautifully cited in her speech. The voters stood at the brink and said, no, we're not doing that. And so it's this weird thing where both things are true. Yeah, the incumbents stood, but it wasn't just more of the same. It was we want to maintain the status quo because there is a real threat to it, like, we held off our real threat to it. And so  it's like you're kind of holding both of those truths at the same time from these election results.  

Beth [00:19:42] Because it's district by district too. Like, that is true and we are also sending some election deniers to Congress. And there are places in the United States where people feel a real rightward shift in their local control. And so it's all happening at the same time. This is something that I have really been wrong about. I have assumed for a long time that higher turnout would yield more moderate results. And it turns out that more people just yields more of everything. I don't think you see any enormous shifts anywhere. You just see more of everything, more people who are far right, more people who are pretty progressive, and more people somewhere in the center. And if you look at it district by district, that seems to be how it turns out and that we're just really close in a lot of places. Even as I look at the Kentucky numbers, where it feels so hopeless sometimes for Democrats to make much progress here, the raw numbers are fairly close, and I don't really know what that means other than maybe we overestimated the Trump effect on the Overton window. There are all these pieces about how he shifted everything and he did, in a way, but you can see it now I think maybe as fad instead of true trajectory change-- at least I hope so. A great example of that is that we just had the Senate, on a fairly bipartisan basis, pass protection for same sex marriage, heavily negotiated to protect religious liberty, but recognition that it should be legal and recognized state by state. It's pretty exciting. And if Trump had really shifted the Overton window, as much as I thought that he had, I don't know that you would have gotten enough Republicans to cross the 60 vote threshold on a piece of legislation like that.  

Sarah [00:21:36] I love the lame-duck session because it does feel like-- with the election heat turned off-- you get this small little moment where especially the people who are leaving can act like they've wanted to act the whole time without any sort of election influence. And so, yeah, I love to see the legislation that comes out here. I think we'll see some more with the same sex marriage protection. We have Gretchen Carlson out there. One woman MeToo legislation show. That's not true, she's part of an organization, but it is incredible that now they have passed the limitations on nondisclosure agreements. You have to sign them before the dispute. But still, that's major, major progress. I think that's so incredible. I hope we'll see the Electoral Count Act reform passed. I think that we will.  I love these sessions because it does feel like they show up and just get to plan no govern without these outside influences,. Although, we do have a major outside influence. Speaking of the Overton Window in Trump, which is that he has announced his third presidential campaign. Here's how I feel about that. I don't care. And I think it's such an important moment for us all to take a beat and remember nigh on three months-- not even maybe two-- everybody, the people at the dispatch, the people at the Bulwark, everybody was like, he's going to be the nominee. That's it. We're done. Like, he still controls the party, all his primary people won. Everyone's like it's still Trump's party. If I read one it's still Trump's party, I read 50.  Now, what do we say over and over again? We're, like, guys, we have got so much time in front of us. What are we doing here?  And now he comes out, it's low energy. Everybody mostly rolls their eyes. The big donors are, like, I'm out. No member of Congress goes. Ivanka doesn't even go. I'm not stupid enough to be like, oh, we're done here completely. But just look in a teeny tiny amount of time how the meta analysis about him shifted so dramatically. And I just want everybody to put that in their cells and remember that the next time we're freaking about him or some other political moment and it seems like it's set in stone and it's not I.e., Ron DeSantis.  

Beth [00:23:48] That's the thing. We're just two years away. So much can happen in two years. There could be a Trump comeback, there could be continued Trump decline. DeSantis could be anointed, but perhaps not. We anointed people two years out in previous elections who ended up fading away quickly. I watched this announcement. It seemed very halfhearted to me. I think you can tell that he is running on defense now instead of offense, and that is a completely different posture. He's older and you can tell, and I don't say that to be disparaging, but it is a big lift to run for president and be the plaintiff and defendant in a gazillion lawsuits. There's just a lot going on right now. I watched his announcement and the fire is not there this time. He really does look like someone who would rather be on the golf course but feels like he has to do this. I no longer trust the Republican Party to stay in any place, to put down a flag and stick with it. I've lost that trust. So all the people saying no to this, I can see turning around and saying yes in two weeks if it looks like the wind is blowing that way.  

Sarah [00:24:56] Mm-hmm.  

Beth [00:24:57] My overall take, though, is that I don't care, in the sense that I'm not panicked because I think it would be a very good thing, in fact, the best thing for the country to have him defeated at the ballot box.  

Sarah [00:25:12] Again.  

Beth [00:25:14] Again. Whatever else happens to have him defeated at the ballot box, especially in a primary, would be exceptionally good for this country and might just be a necessary part of healing, everything that has been broken over the past few years. I don't like the attempts to try to keep him from running because that's just not what we do here in this country. I just think it's important that the voters say this out loud after everything that we've been through.  

Sarah [00:25:44] I love your optimism and would like to remind everybody that Stop the Steal came from the Republican National Convention and was invented by the Trump campaign over concerns that Ted Cruz would try to sway delegates in his favor. He did the same shit in Iowa. It might feel better to the rest of us, but if we think he's going to lose a primary and stop this song and dance about how he was untreated unfairly and it was stolen from him, I'm going channel my inner Maggie Haberman. No, no, he's told us what he's going to do no matter what.  

Beth [00:26:16] Agreed. A hundred percent agreed about him. But I would like the public to say you can sing that song alone this time or you can sing it with your dwindling 30% or whatever it is. But I think that that's the necessary way this story goes next.  

Sarah [00:26:35] And we will be here no matter what twists and turns the story takes. Next up, we're going to talk about how you can talk or not talk about any of this with your family over Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is next week. Based on the air travel alone, it looks like all of us are going somewhere. It's all back to 2019 levels. We're all going somewhere that's not our house, unless everyone that's going somewhere is coming to our house. Visiting family and all its attendant emotional complexity is back at the proverbial Thanksgiving table. But we are here for you. We're here to walk through that.  

Beth [00:27:25] Well, I think a good starting place is that traveling is stressful, especially right now when it seems like everyone is sick from something all the time everywhere. And so we might all think we're going places and those plans might change at the last minute. And I just kind of want to light a candle for everyone in this moment who is holding their Thanksgiving expectations loosely, depending on what virus is circulating around your kids school right now.  

Sarah [00:27:49] Or just what happens with the airlines that day. Who the hell knows?  

Beth [00:27:53] That's right. I would like to say I do think air travel is getting better. I think Secretary Pete has done a really good job leaning on people. I think there's been some decent leadership within the airline industry. I just want to say to everybody out there working in that space, my experiences are showing a marked improvement and I hope that the worker experience is improving as well.  

Sarah [00:28:16] So as we all travel, that's a good intro to just let's unpack and categorize all the emotional complexity present before we ever show up. This is something I learned and I really wish we'd even include in our book Now What. When we did our conversations around Now What with listeners for our summer series, we had an incredible conversation around family. And working through that with those listeners made me realize we spent a lot of time in our book on expectations and they definitely come into play, and they're going to be super charged if this is the first real gathering you've had since the pandemic. Just pour gasoline on that fire. But another thing that could also be super charged if we haven't gathered for a while, is status within the family, which is the thing I think we don't spend enough time talking about. So what do I mean by that? Well, there's status if you're hosting. There's status if you've traveled a long way. There's status at play if you've given up. If you're a married couple and someone's coming and not going to their family, there's going to be some emotion at play there. There's going to be status change if people have gotten married or divorced, widowed, had a baby. Those are all shifting statuses within the family and they're the undercurrent that is present before anything about politics comes to the conversation. So everybody's walking into this gathering with this shifting ground underneath them. Like, I really want to be with these people. I'm happy to be here with these people-- or maybe I'm not, because I'd rather be with my family but this was the bargain I struck with my husband or wife or partner. And just that vulnerability of being a new parent or again like being recently divorced, all of these things put us in a very emotional state. And what we have all learned, and particularly I would like to shout out Dr. Becky who really put words around this for me, is that when we are in that emotional space, when we're in our emotional brains, we are basically incapable of higher level processing in logic. Like, we're just in it. Listen, just small talk alone will put me in that emotional space. I don't like small talk, and there's a lot of small talk at Thanksgiving. And so I think that's so important. You're traveling, you're stressed. You've been sick, you were worried about being sick. There's status changes, expectations. This gathering for the first time in a long time, that's a lot of emotion at play before Trump even comes up.  

Beth [00:30:48] It is a really hard thing that we spend these days that we have so much expectation bound up in with people that we are often not with the rest of the time. That's a hard decision that we have made culturally for those of us who live away from family. It's weird that these days are the days that we pick to be with our people who are not our everyday people. The other thing I've been thinking about a lot, because it's very relevant to us this year, is when someone is really suffering and they are a part of your Thanksgiving mix, that changes the dynamic of everything. It changes everyone's hopes for the day, their expectations, what you can reasonably expect the conversation to be like. As much as we talk about how important it is to engage with other people and influence them, this year I have this profound sense that I just don't want to do any sort of news and politics at Thanksgiving. I just really don't this time. I think that there's enough just in basic human survival happening right now that I hope for a much lighter conversation.  

Sarah [00:32:02] But we all know and we got questions that some people are going to throw it out there as an opening volley. I just want to say, I think what happens a lot of the time is that is a person's attempt to release tension. I know it doesn't feel that way. But when you feel that tension and it might be because it's shifting family dynamics are a million different things, it's like that person's way of just like, well, let's get something out there. Let's just get this energy moving. Some people, I think, the stagnation feels suffocating and so they'd rather be talking about anything, even something intense as politics, as opposed to leaving all this stuff unsaid-- even though politics is going to continue to leave that stuff unsaid. There's a really great moment in Oprah's book about trauma that talks about if you're if your status quo is discomfort, you're going to maintain that no matter what even though to everyone else, it's like, why would you do that? They're comfortable in that discomfort. They're comfortable in conflict ridden conversations. They're comfortable in that tension, and so they're going to create it. And I just think that's a really important thing to remember. You can be, like, "Why would we do that? That's going to make everything worse," but it doesn't feel like that to that person.  

Beth [00:33:22] I love that you say that it's making me smile because I remember some friends of my parents who always made me uncomfortable as a kid. Even though I loved them and they loved me, they argued a lot. And it took so much pressure off for me when I heard my mom say once, "That's just how they relate. They like to argue. That's that's what they do. That's their thing." And that just then I started to enjoy being around them more because I realized, oh, that is just their thing. And it has helped me with some other folks in our lives to just be like, oh, you just like to complain. Okay. This is not something that you want me to fix. There's not really a problem here, you just enjoy complaining. And having that framework of, like, I am not responsible for everyone in the room is a thing that I always have to come back to in my life. But I do think that political bomb throwers, you can just put in that territory. Like, oh, this is what you do and that is not for me to fix today is helpful.  

Sarah [00:34:16] Yeah, I think that's just important to remember overall. Some people are going to run from conflict, some people are going to lean in. You're going to feel like you understand how someone is going to act maybe from social media post, but they might behave completely different in person. And I think there's a lot of generational expectations. That's what we named in Now What. That's what we spend a lot of time on the book, is this generational expectation. And I think the more the media environment leans into generational differences, which they've definitely been doing a lot, that increases the chances it's going to come up and you're going to have some older person say, like, well, young people don't want to work or whatever. That's a really great moment to say, "I value that our family has all these generations and that we can learn from each other and try to understand each other a little better, and I think that's easier to do when we don't talk in really broad stereotypes about generations because people get defensive." Just kind of naming it like I'm not mad about talking about generations, there's lots to be learned and understood, but let's not stereotype each other so everybody gets defensive.  

Beth [00:35:21] And I think those are moments when you can also say, "Hey, that's just not been my experience of people in that generation. I see that just like people of your generation, we're all looking for meaningful work to do, people to love us, things to look forward to. Those ingredients have not changed across generations." And it might come across differently. The jobs might be different. The expectations associated with those jobs might be different, but I don't see a generation of people who don't want to work and to have their work be important in their lives.  

Sarah [00:35:54] Well, and of course, then you have all the way of the other in the spectrum. You have people who are lobbing these grenades into the conversation, and then you have people who just pretend like politics doesn't exist. And I think that's maddening in another way, because what everybody hears, especially if you're a person that cares, is like you're stupid to care about that. It doesn't matter, why do you care? It's super fun when you get both both extremes. You have somebody who thinks everything in politics is like some sort of sign of God's favor or the other end lOL who cares? Nothing matters. You can get a whole buffet of options as far as how people care and think about politics. I have been using Shannon Martin's quote a lot. "Politics is not a dirty word. It's an honest word." I think that is so brilliant. I might trot that out at Thanksgiving because I think it just gets at it the same way you get at it with. It's just how we live in community together. There's a lot at play and it's ever changing. That doesn't mean it doesn't have impact. Also, it doesn't  mean it's a sign of God's favor. It's paradoxically like we say all the time, we got to put it in its place and the stakes are incredibly high.  

Beth [00:37:05] I think that's an interesting conversation to have. Like, if somebody brings it up and anybody is really uncomfortable or someone makes fun of you for caring about it, I would love to know what place people think politics have in our society. If we're talking about our lives as a house, what's the foundation of the house? Is it governance? Is it your faith? Is it some other value system? Is it the planet? Like, what's the foundation? Where would you put politics in the scheme of that layout? How did you get there? I think this is really important as people talk about inflation. I hear that concern and I want to meet it with a prosperous economy depends on a stable government structure.  So they they have to go together. And I think that how we are envisioning those pieces interlocking would be a much more fruitful conversation than what do we think of Trump running for a third time.  

Sarah [00:37:59] Well, and we've also been talking a lot about bringing up sort of politically neutral facts, development headlines, as a way to steer that conversation. If government and participation in politics comes out, high voter turnout is a great thing to talk about. This election was so close and yet we had so many more people participating. Isn't it great that people are voting? That that is a fundamental act of trust and an endorsement of this process that we've been beating up. That we have such high voter turnout.  Listen, Maggie we'll sit down with you if you need like some cliff notes. But there has been so many amazing developments in the space program to talk about and reference. I think that you see a lot of growth in the energy sector. We all can see the growth of electric vehicles and solar panels, people in our lives who are putting solar panels on their roofs. The way that politics is showing up right in front of our faces, I think is a really cool way to have these conversations. You'll learn a lot about your relatives if you ask the way that politics is showing up in their lives instead of just trying to debate campaign commercials.  

Beth [00:39:13] A hundred percent. And I think if you have someone who's just relentless about it, pushing talking points, pushing conspiracy theory, whatever it is, it might help shift that conversation to just say to them, "You seem really passionate about this. How are you getting involved?" You're talking a lot about the schools, have you ever thought about being a substitute teacher and just kind of getting in there and seeing what's really happening on the ground? Or I'd love to go to a school board meeting together so we can really hear what they're wrestling with. Encouraging people to translate all this pent up energy into a contribution, whether you like what that pent up energy consists of or not, can really move the conversation forward.  

Sarah [00:39:52] And then sometimes we just have to exit. Sometimes we just have to exit the conversation. We've talked a lot about this, that articulating what the conversation felt like to you, narrating that conversation, "Hey, I really appreciated this. I don't need to agree with you to want to hear from you and I want you to know that. I'm feeling defensive and I don't want the conversation to take that turn. So let's just take a break. We're not going to never talk again. We're going to have a chance to talk about this again, because I like to hear from you. But right now, I think I'm going go get another slice of pumpkin pie."  

Beth [00:40:23] Yeah, having those words in advance. Just kind of knowing I'm going to be okay however this goes. And I can say out loud, "I'm going to take a break from this conversation. You all can continue without me if you'd like to. I'll just head into the other room for a minute, but this has been interesting and stimulating, and also I'm done for now." That's totally fine. You have that power.  

Sarah [00:40:44] We started this with saying like things are different. There's a lot of accelerants on our holidays right now because of the pandemic and because of increased travel and because of the way our families have shifted. While maybe we weren't gathering for the several years, I want to end by saying that doesn't have to be a negative thing. I think often we frame these conversations and gatherings as just a source of stress, and I want to encourage all of us to allow our family members to surprise us, to allow these moments and conversations and even emotional intensity, to allow good things to happen, to allow curiosity and awe at our family members and what they've survived and what they've gone through or what they're succeeding at right now. Because we are driven by expectations as human beings. And if we go in thinking that this is going to be stressful or that this person is going to bring in this one thing and I don't want to talk about it, our brains are so predictive, we can really foreclose those opportunities for the people who we're gathering with, who we're connected with, who we love to inspire us. And I hope that there are opportunities for that at your family gathering.  

Beth [00:41:54] And I hope for all of you who cannot gather with your families because maybe the political issues have become so personal and such an attack on your identity that it's not okay for you to be there, or whatever the dynamics are, that you are surrounded by people who you love and enjoy this Thanksgiving and that you have a a gentle, graceful opportunity to observe this time in whatever way you choose to observe it.  

Sarah [00:42:18] Next up, we're going to talk about our trip to Raleigh, North Carolina. Our longtime listener, Brent [Sp], invited us to come talk to the Southern Business Administration Association. That sounds opaque, but let me just tell you what it is. It's all these deans that are the nicest, most wonderful people gathering--  even when they move out of the South they still come, y'all. That's how great this conference is. That is a real endorsement for conferences. They were just the loveliest. We had such a good time talking to them about the fragility of higher education, both from the student side, the faculty side, the administration side, and how they're navigating that about how they can communicate and provide steady leadership during these fragile times. We just had the best time. Well, we had the best time [Inaudible] Beth, and then your trip took a turn.  

Beth [00:43:14] Yeah, my trip took a dramatic turn. I got very sick while we were there with whatever stomach bug has been floating around my children's schools. But I want to say before we talk about that piece, to the extent that we do anymore, that it is a very big deal to us to have a listener say, "I know that it sounds weird to bring a political podcast here, but trust me." And we could just feel Brent's trust for us as she brought us into this room of people who I'm sure did think Pantsuit Politics, what is going on here? And I felt good, as good as a person who is in the throes of illness could feel about the conversation that we facilitated. And it was really wonderful how much they participated and how much they trusted us to hear what's really going on in their universities and how difficult their jobs are right now and how much they care about those jobs. There was a palpable sense of care in the room and passion for the work, and I think if you have a student in college right now, you would have felt really comforted hearing this roomful of people expressing the care that they have for students.  

Sarah [00:44:23] I just love to hear from adults in higher education. I mean, we love to go to colleges for the students, but I also just love to kick it with the people that bring us there because the people who just are exposed to a steady flow of young adults and their concerns and their struggles and successes, they are just the best. They have such insight into humanity and also, I think, are the best sources when you're a parent in the midst of parenting struggles to talk too. So I love being with those types of groups. We had such a good time there. And then we met up with the Holderness family. Ya'll probably heard us on their podcast. Well, I met up with the whole Holderness family because you were still so sick. And I felt terrible, and I hate that you missed it because they are the loveliest guys. They are exactly as fun and wonderful as you think they are from watching their delightful videos and Amazing Race win. I mean, they really are. We had the best conversation with them on their podcast. If you have not listened, go listen. It's one of my favorite we've had recently. And so we decided to meet up and they were just the funnest.  

Beth [00:45:27] Yeah. I am so disappointed that I didn't get to meet them. I'm so disappointed that I felt like I wasn't as good a speaker as I usually am. Like, the whole trip is just wrapped in disappointment for me, and I hate feeling disappointed, and I hate dealing with being sick. And I hate all of the emotion that is wrapped up in being sick with me and the history that I bring to it, and the way that all of the loving people in my lives, observations and suggestions and diagnoses just feel like criticism to me makes me want to withdraw from the universe. And I just hope that for those of you who are like me and do not have much of an immune system and have a body that kind of fights with you through any sort of recovery,  that it's not a character flaw. It's easy to feel that, but it's not.  

Sarah [00:46:19] Listen, I told you I would prefer to feel straight up sad and angry, even together, than disappointment. It's the freakin worst. And it get's worser at the older I get. And it's cold and flu season, it's like disappointment season. That's all that is. It's disappointment season. You're missing shit all the time and it's the worst.  

Beth [00:46:44] It is the worst. I think it's because I don't get super excited about a lot of things because I have learned to ride the tide of life better as I've gotten older. So when I do and it falls flat, and it falls flat because of something like in my body that I cannot control, it's just... I have felt for the last four days like I'm just in quicksand, you know what I mean? Like trying so hard to crawl out and just being pulled back down in it. You all are so lovely. I am not looking for anybody to email me like I'm so sorry kind of messages. I'm not trying to have a pity party. I only talk about this because I know that I am not alone in this experience of picking up everything that comes through, being taken down really hard by it and feeling like shit because of it.  I don't wish that for anyone else, but if it helps you to hear that you are not alone today, then let me say that this is going to be my life probably for a few months.  

Sarah [00:47:43] Well, and let me just say, it's so hard to not want to try to fix it for people attached to you. I feel so powerless and that's the worst part. And back to our conversation in the opener, this is why we name these things. This is why I think it's incredibly brave and important that you're talking about this and saying it feels like a character flaw because not for nothing I think that's political and important and even more relevant post-pandemic and as we come into a changing health care environment, because we're all going through that and we feel those undercurrents and we feel those pressures.  I was under the impression that as you got older your body got tougher. I don't know where I got that from. It's the opposite. I don't like it. I don't know who designed this system, but I don't enjoy it. Because I am a person that leans into enthusiasm and anticipation about all things, so I have very, very, little margin for disappointment, including you not being present. And so, man, it's just tough out there. It's just tough out there. And we got to name it because if you carry that toughness alone inside your head, it's a million times worse.  

Beth [00:48:48] Yeah, it really is. And I appreciated all the support from you and Alise. And there were still things about this trip that I enjoyed. It was a very hard time for me and I am so bummed about that. But it makes me look forward to getting out there again because I love to be in a room full of people having interesting conversations.  

Sarah [00:49:08] I do too.  

Beth [00:49:08] Just as much as I love what we do here, man, when we get to be with people in a space and feel their energy and hear their voices, it's wonderful. So we want to let you know that we have some trips coming up in Knoxville, Tennessee, in Abilene in the Dallas area in Texas. We have some trips coming up in Indiana. If you heard a place that is near you and you have suggestions for other places we might speak while we're there or just fun experiences we should have, we are really committed to getting to know places when we are able to spend time there, so we welcome all of that input. You can email: Hello@Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. And trust me when I tell you I'm doing all the things, I'm sleeping, I'm exercising, I'm taking my vitamins, I'm doing my very best to stay healthy. 

Sarah [00:49:54] Don't tell take vitamin C. I tell her to take that enough. She doesn't need more people telling her to take vitamin C or probiotics. So definitely skip that one.  

Beth [00:50:00] I have those tips locked in my memory and have complied. Here are the canvas that I am.  

Sarah [00:50:07] I also want to add we're not only committed to getting to know places better ourselves, but inviting you guys along for the journey. We have some really exciting projects in the works where we can invite you along to these moments where we go to Oklahoma City and get to just soak it all up. We want that for all of you, too. I think it will be incredible and transformative. And we're working on some really exciting events coming up, including one in Orlando, Florida in April. Just a little sneek pick. We're going to be announcing that soon, too. So thank you. Thank you for everybody who's involved in those opportunities. And, again, a friendly reminder that our holiday gift guide is out, including our books. We talked a lot about Now What in this episode and that audio book is very different from our first audio book. I cry on it. I fought for the right to cry in that audiobook, you guys. Like, I went to the [Inaudible] and was like, no, the people need to hear me cry. It's a very important part of the experience and so we're very proud of that product. If you're looking for something to keep you company while you're traveling over the holidays this week, we humbly and highly recommend Now What. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday with a conversation from the team at ABLE. We can't wait to share. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

Beth [00:51:34] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:51:39] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:51:45] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:51:49] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sara Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holliday. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers. Karen True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Kathryn Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:52:24] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McCue. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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