Sarah Experiments with Psychedelics

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Waiting on Final Election Results while Twitter Falls Apart

  • Sarah Experiments with Psychedelics

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EPISODE RESOURCES

CHAOS AT TWITTER

ELECTION RESULTS UPDATE (AS OF MONDAY 11/14)

PSYCHEDELICS
If you or someone in your life is struggling with substance abuse or mental health disorders, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health National Helpline has resources available, you can also call: 1-800-662-HELP

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:26] Hello, thank you so much for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. It's going to be a strange one today. We embrace our strangeness sometimes because as we are recording, we are still awaiting information on the midterm elections. We're going to talk about what we do know in the first segment. And then after that, Sarah is going to share a very personal account of her trip to Colorado to experiment with Cona, which is something that she wanted to do to celebrate her 40th birthday. And then Outside of Politics, we're just going to continue that conversation to see if Sarah has convinced me that this might be something I would like to welcome into my existence.  

Sarah [00:01:06] In our conversation, we talk about times of transition and that's where we are right now. We're transitioning into the holiday season. We have two pieces of content we think you would be interested in. First, we have our holiday gift guide. Sarah and Beth's favorite things throughout the year, including a feature of our partnership with ABLE which is offering all of our listeners 40% off sitewide with the code PANTSUIT40. So you should check out that gift guide. You should check out ABLE. Also, many of us will be heading out of town to spend time with our families next week for Thanksgiving. And we just wanted to share that we have two books that tackle difficult conversations with those in your lives. I Think You're Wrong, but I'm listening. A Guide to Grace-filled Political Conversations. And Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything). So we would love it if you would check out those books or audiobooks to prepare for next week. And we're also going to have some special content surrounding Thanksgiving conversations.  

Beth [00:01:58] Up next, we're going to talk about the midterms and we are going to talk about Sarah's drug use. Now, listen, this is a strange episode and very different from what we often do here, although I hope that it is as interesting and deep as what we usually do. But also we just want to say our hearts are in the right place with these conversations, they will land differently with everyone listening. We appreciate the grace that you show us when something doesn't land exactly right with you. And we look forward to hearing from you about your reactions to this episode. Sarah, We are recording off schedule. It is 6:17 p.m. Eastern time on Saturday night. I cannot remember the last time we recorded on a Saturday night. But we are here because tomorrow morning we leave for Raleigh, North Carolina, to speak at a conference. We're very excited about that. We'll tell you about it when we get back. We wanted to check in, though, on the midterms because we're still waiting around on you Nevada. Love you. Waiting.  

Sarah [00:03:08] Take your time. It's okay. It's really still so weird out there. It snowed here today. It was 80 degrees two days ago. Last night, my children attended a carnival where they went through a haunted house. Today, it snowed. I'm decorating for Christmas, and my husband's making Thanksgiving dinner because we're going to be out of town for Thanksgiving. It's just weird. It's weird politically out there.  

Beth [00:03:33] It's a very transitional moment that we're in.  

Sarah [00:03:35] It's all very transitional. It's a very transitional moment. When my husband has not been cooking, he has been on the bird app breathlessly following counting in Nevada. At one point today, he told me that the Culinary Union carried like 7000 ballots of 14,000 ballots, like just calling people and making sure everything was right and like getting the ballots to count. It's just bananas reporting. But this is also weird (along with the snow) because the bird app is melting down in front of our very eyes. Elon Musk has lost his damn mind and he's taking Twitter with him.  

Beth [00:04:13] Well, I was going to ask, is Nicholas sure that he's following Nevada reporters or is he following people pretending to be Nevada reporters? When we see companies lose billions of dollars because of hilarious spoof tweets, it makes me feel like we're living in an alternate universe.  

Sarah [00:04:36] Exactly.  

Beth [00:04:37] And I lived through the whole Lehman Brothers mess. I remember when paper took the economy down, but this is something else altogether.  

Sarah [00:04:43] Yeah, we're like in the upside down right now. I mean, I am delighted. I am delighted in this particular writing. I don't know if we're writing ourselves. I don't know if we're flipping upside down. I don't know what direction we're in, but I'm delighted with it. I just want to be on the record as saying I'm very happy. I don't know how many like Republican postmortems I can read about how panicked and angry and frustrated they are. I have not reached the limit yet is all I can tell you here on Saturday. I've not reached the limit of how many of those articles I can read. I will read more of them. Whoever wants to write them, I will click them and I will read them. Can't get enough of it. It's just wild out there, man. It's wild.  

Beth [00:05:19] I feel so sorry for the people at Twitter who are employees trying to do their job and work against chaos as Elon Musk goes about writing a one man, how not to manage a large company text book. So I don't feel totally delighted. It all feels very unstable to me. It's almost like this is how the world ends, right? Not with a bang, but with a series of ill advised tweets. Like, what are we doing?  

Sarah [00:05:46] Well, I'm just delighted because it does feel like things are writing themselves. It's a little wacky right now. I'm not telling you I don't feel sort of like you're on one of those shifting floors at a carnival, it feels like we're shifting back in the right direction. It feels like our sliding door moment in 2016 it's warping back to where things should have been. I don't know. There is a none to zero chance that Democrats keep the House of Representatives. What? 

Beth [00:06:18] I know. The carnival floor is an interesting metaphor to me because I kind of feel like I'm on the teacups ride. You know the teacups ride where you spin in the teacup and then your plate spins with all the other plates, and so there are multiple levels of spinning going on. And you tell yourself, I'm supposed to be having fun. Why do I feel like I'm going to throw up every second? That's where I am right now with all of this. We did get some good, solid confirmed news out of Arizona. I think it's good news that Mark Kelly has defeated Blake Master, because I think Blake Masters would not have been a good senator for the great state of Arizona. And I think that Mark Kelly has done a good job. I particularly like how Mark Kelly is always willing to say, "Hello, we do need some better plans on immigration." And I'm glad he's going to be there to continue advocating for that. So that seems good. I'm thrilled that the Democrat won the Secretary of State election in Arizona. Because now however the gubernatorial race turns out, which we don't know as we're recording, Katie Hobbs is still up in the vote as we're recording. And her lead has been expanding throughout the day. But we don't know how that race is going to end. But even if Kerry Lake is to prevail, there will at least be a check on her as we enter into the next federal election cycle. So that feels good. Again, it's the teacups. It's like there's a lot of good things happening around me, but it is very dizzying.  

Sarah [00:07:44] Well, perhaps this shifting reality is a good transition. These shifting reality metaphors are a good transition into the rest of our show, where I'm going to share my journey to Denver to expand my mind. Yeah, to expand my mind.  

Beth [00:08:12] And now for something entirely different.  

Sarah [00:08:14] Entirely different. Or is it? Or is it, I'm just saying.  

Beth [00:08:20] Because we contain multitudes here, we want to share with you an experience Sarah declared on this podcast, several years ago, she intended to have as she turned 40. And you have now had the experience, Sarah. So why don't you tell everybody what you did, and then I want you to sort of pause because I have some questions.  

Sarah [00:08:39] Okay.  

Beth [00:08:39] Before we get to the actual process. Okay?   

Sarah [00:08:44] Okay. Just like every other nice white lady, I read Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind. I read all Michael Pollan's book because I love him, which was about psychedelics. It's a great book. He takes all kinds of psychedelics. He takes LSD. He takes psilocybin-- which is mushrooms. He takes ayahuasca. He kind of writes about the experiences in a part of the book where I was like, okay, I'm in. He goes to get a brain scan and he tells the people, "Hold on a second, let me try something." And all he does is think back on his experience with psilocybin, and it shows up in the brain scan acquired as his default mode network. Okay. And I thought, okay, I'm in. I'm convinced that sounds amazing. So when Denver recently decriminalized psilocybin, I reached out to some friends in Denver and said, "I'd like to have this experience with psychedelics. Could you lead me in the right direction?" Well, where they led me was really great. So what I took is a herb called Kanna. It's legal in the United States. You can go pick it up at GMC. There's no visual hallucinogenics, and it's more equivalent to MDMA, which is another drug that people are experiencing with in sort of psychological settings. It brings on sort of a sense of euphoria. And so that is what I finally-- after many years of trying to get it [Inaudible] since I turned 40. I flew to Denver and experienced.  

Beth [00:10:00] So you've used the word experience quite a bit. And I want to know when you were hoping for that, and anticipating it and planning it, was it more about a physicality? Was there a question you were hoping to answer? Can you narrow in for us on what kind of experience you were looking for?  

Sarah [00:10:21] I was definitely looking for more of a psychological experience. I wasn't discouraged when I found out what I'd be taking wasn't visual hallucinogenics. That wasn't some essential part of the equation, although I would still like to experience that. But I really like the idea of these particular sort of group of substances that can help you quiet your default mode network. Because let me tell you, as you probably understand, as someone who works closely with me, mine is very loud and powerful. Now, that has served me well in life, that has served me well in life in a lots of ways. But because my thinking brain is such a strong muscle, I wanted to quiet it a little bit and I thought a little chemical help couldn't hurt. And so I really wanted to go in and we set this intention and the group I went with, and my intention was to feel not just think. Now you might think, Sarah, we hear you cry on this podcast all the time, surely you feel. And I do, I have big feelings, but it's like I kind of wanted to meet in the middle. There are a lot of things I know intellectually about how I'm connected to other people and the universe and what we're really here to do and how much control we have. And it's like I know it, but I kind of wanted to slow down enough and feel it. That was sort of my intention and goal going in.  

Beth [00:11:44] Now, I am a nice white lady who has not read Michael Pollan's book about this.  

Sarah [00:11:48] Okay.  

Beth [00:11:49] So tell me this, was your intention to find something that would become a part of your life where you might have this experience more than once? Or were you looking to just like check this off your list? I tried it. I felt it and did it. Moving on.  

Sarah [00:12:07] Yeah. No, I was not looking to make this a regular part of my life. And there were people that I had this experience with that this journey is a regular part of their experience. And while I would like to try psilocybin still, I'm not looking to bring this in as a regular habit. No. Not at all.  

Beth [00:12:25] And did you have any fear about that? Like, what if I love this and it becomes a problem in my life?  

Sarah [00:12:32] No. He talks a lot about that in the book, that there's really not a lot of addictive qualities of psychedelics. And so, no, I was not worried about using it to regularly escape my life. First of all, I'm not looking to escape my life. He talks about this a lot too, that when you see the use of these substances in other cultures over long periods of time, they are at a certain stage of life. They're at a certain point. Like you're older. The disruption that happened in the sixties with psychedelics is that it was young people and old people were freaked out. Whereas, if you go and look at other cultures where they regularly use ayahuasca, this is older people introducing it to people reaching middle age to sort of put some more layers and some more understanding as we get further along in life. And I think that's what they're really good at. And so, yeah, I wasn't really worried about that.  

Beth [00:13:23] Okay. So I'm going to back away now. Those are the questions that I wanted to hear about your experience. So why don't you just tell us about what you did and where you did it?  

Sarah [00:13:33] So I went to Denver and I was lovingly welcomed into this community that does this practice pretty regularly, and I was there for two nights. So I took the drug sort of early in the evening on Friday. Now, the big thing for me is my body is very sensitive to stimulants. And this is a stimulant. And so I was up really late. I lost a lot of sleep. And that is another way my brain quiets itself. So the physicality of it was very intense for me because I just keep my physicality or my body pretty tightly controlled. I just feel like as the older I get, the narrower the path to flourishing becomes as far as what I can eat and how late I can stay up and what I can take. And so I think my body was like what are we doing here, friend? But the first night, I definitely felt that euphoric sense of, like, oh my gosh, look at all the people around me who love me and who've loved me my whole life. I felt the presence of my grandfather and my great aunt who cared for me a lot when I was a child and who loved me so deeply. I sent very many loving text messages. You, in fact, got a very loving text message. What did you think when it showed up in your text message?  

Beth [00:14:44] I did. Well, my first thought was, oh, no, she sent this hours ago. Is she going to think I've rejected her? Because I was just sleeping.  

Sarah [00:14:51] You see? That's the beauty? No. See, that's the beauty. It's like you're not out of touch with, like, how late it is. You're not tripping in a way that you are detached from reality. It's just  all that negativity and ego that comes into play, it's just kind of silenced. It's really nice.  

Beth [00:15:08] Yeah. No, I thought it was beautiful. It was so nice to hear from you. And just to know that, like, you allowed me into your headspace while you were doing this very personal thing. Since I am your business partner, to know that I got a little teeny bit of that room was very touching to me.   

Sarah [00:15:24] Yeah. I sent my mom a text message, immediately my dad thought my phone had been hacked. He was, like, I think somebody has taken your phone. I was like, no, just loving on you. And it was funny because when I was telling somebody the next day, like, "Oh, I sent all these love bombs, I sent all of these text messages," and they were like, "Well, how do people react to you reconnecting?" And I was, like, I wasn't reconnecting. I sent 25 text messages because that's how many people I have in my life every day who I just love and who were supporting me and all my girlfriends. But it was I had this ability to sort of name things and just express things that I think would have felt a little vulnerable, a little hard. And also, you just need a moment to do that. And it's like I had this kind of funny way to be, like, I'm here on this self-exploration journey and this is what I need to tell you. We don't have enough time, I think, to just say-- not just I love you. I think a lot of us reflectively say, I love you, I'm grateful for you. But to just like really get in there and say, like, this is what you've brought to my life. This is the very specific thing that I feel flowing from you to me right now, was really powerful. My sweet, sweet, beloved husband who was a little worried I would go take this trip and then move to the mountains and abandon our family. Quite the opposite. Instead, he got stuck on Face Time with me until two in the morning. Just probably being, like, we're so lucky. Do you understand how lucky we are? Like, we love each other, working out some stuff because it's been hard the last few months with Felix's diagnosis of diabetes. It was incredibly stressful. And we're sort of coming up for air right now. And this kind of happened at a nice point where we were coming up from air and we could just say, man, look at this thing we've gotten through and what have we learned and what could we work on a little bit more and what could we just give ourselves a break about. I read Laura Tramaine's email like the next day where she said she got that message Walking the Labyrinth that said you're not doing anything wrong. And I thought, man, I do spend a lot of time worrying about what I'm doing wrong. And to just have that moment and be like, hey, there's so much going right right now, was really, really powerful and beautiful.  

Beth [00:17:21] I love that. So I just want to take away from that power and beauty for a quick second and go back to the fact that you all by yourself went to a house for the purpose of drug use in Denver. And I'm wondering if you had any moment where you thought, oh, was this a good idea.  

Sarah [00:17:39]  I did. Listen. Okay. So you all know my husband is an Enneagram six. He catastrophizes. So he was worried. He was concerned. I talked to this woman who leads these groups on the phone. She was so lovely and I just trusted her immediately and I hadn't really thought about it. But other people's anxiety started to infect me for sure. I had a friend who was definitely convinced I was going to get my kidney sold. So of course I texted her Saturday morning and said I'm here and I have both kidneys and I just wanted you to know that. But it started to get to me and I thought, is this a dangerous thing to do? And then I was just talking about it with Nicholas, and he was concerned. We were kind of walking through it. And I said, "Look, I am going to go into this process and I'm pretty good at reading people. And at the second I walk into this space and I don't feel safe, I will leave." I think it was best that I wasn't doing like a visual psychedelic where I felt like I would be out of touch, like, you know, whatever. And my friend who had recommended this to me, who lives in Denver, we like kind of got on the phone and she was like, "I'm on the ground. I'm here all weekend. If you need anything, you call me." I think that helped Nicholas feel like more safer about the process that there was somebody close by. Because he was, like, "You're so far away. That's what kind of freaks me out." But everybody at the house was like, "You're so brave. This is your first time. You're here by yourself." You sort of see your decision reflected back in other people's eyes and you're like, oh, yeah, okay. Well, I guess this is kind of a wild thing to do. But there's also a part of my personality that the second I feel a little fearful about stuff I kind of lean in. Not in an unsafe way, I don't do dangerous things, but I definitely love vulnerability and sort of leaning into this vulnerability exercise, and that's definitely what this was.  

Beth [00:19:21] So you had that euphoria the first night, lots of loving texts. I was told there was going to be a nourishing soup.  

Sarah [00:19:28] There was.  

Beth [00:19:29] I'd like to hear about the soup.  

Sarah [00:19:31] There was a nourishing soup.  

Beth [00:19:32] I am much more interested in exploring nourishing soups than drugs, so this is where your interest aligns with mine.  

Sarah [00:19:39] Yes. There was a nourishing soup served at midnight. This is why I trusted this woman. Because she was like we serve a nourishing, like, grounding soup at midnight. And I thought, you are my people. And so, yeah, it was a lovely sort of like broth-based ramen situation that was really delicious, as was the breakfast the next day.  

Beth [00:19:58] And then what happens? You have breakfast. How are you feeling at breakfast, by the way? Like, how long do you feel this in your system?  

Sarah [00:20:04] Because I am so hypersensitive to stimulants, I did not sleep well. I slept like I had a coffee way too late in the day, but a little worse. So I felt a little jittery, a little shaky. I had the breakfast, I felt better. I started feeling tired. I took a nap. But before that point, you have an integration time where everybody comes together and they talk about what they felt, what they were working on, what they realized about themselves. And you  just share that in an open circle communication. In much the way right before we did it, we had an intention setting and we talked it through and then afterwards you sort of integrate it, which was really nice to have that. That's what also was appealing to me, is that there's all this time to help you process the experience.  

Beth [00:20:45] Okay, so you eat breakfast, you process.  

Sarah [00:20:48] I took a nap. Yes.  

Beth [00:20:49] You took a nap. What else did you do?  

Sarah [00:20:51] And then I slept for like two hours. And then I woke up and I kind of panicked because the window on which you can eat beforehand was closing. So I went and I ate much food. And then you do it again, and then you set your intention. Everybody kind of talks through and then you-- and it's really interesting. There's many people who come who've done this before, who do not take anything. So there was an energy work, body work woman there. And actually right before the second time I did some energy work, which was really cool. And then you kind of talk through what you want to experience or anything different. Do you like how it went before. And there's a lot of sort of great Asians. She's very experienced as far as what she can offer you. It's not like everybody's taking the exact same thing. So obviously I took a much lower dose because it was my first time.  

Beth [00:21:34] And can you stop right there and tell us how did you physically ingest it?  

Sarah [00:21:39] It was a pill, just a little capsule. Just a teeny tiny little bit of [Inaudible]. That made me feel safer too, that she was like there was an expert here that understood, that was helping you adjust your experience. And so then you take it again. And this time I told her, I was like the other one was like a lot of stimulant. I'd like to take something that's a little less stimulating. And so I took that. The first time I sort of retreated into my space and was texting and talking to Nicholas and did not really engage with the group. But the second night I ended up in really deep conversation, which is sort of the experience everybody else was having. They were very engaged with each other. And they said, like, everybody's a little different. Some people retreat, some people engage-- it just depends. And so the second night, I had a really long-- like three hours probably-- really amazing conversation with a woman who was not partaking taking that night. She was just there to support people, which I think is really nice. They find this experience so incredible that they just show up to support other people having it and just engage with people. It's not what you see with alcohol. It's not like sober people are, like, I'm going to go hang out with some people who've been drinking. I don't think you'll see that a lot. And so that was really great to just talk to her and listen to her and kind of have feedback with her. I also had a conversation with another man that evening and had just sort of in touch with my childhood. And there's not just a lot of time, a lot to think about because, again, my brain is so present in sort of forward momentum that that's a really powerful momentum for me. And so I thought, I don't have a lot of time and space or just sort of my psychological capacity to sit and really think about like me as a little girl and what I felt about being grown up and what's it like now.  

[00:23:27] And I was thinking about how powerful that is in relationship to my boys. And I think it's this weird trap as a parent because you have your babies and you don't remember what it's like to be a baby, that's not available to you. And so you sort of get stuck in thinking about them as only your lens as a parent. And so by the time they're at an age where you do remember how old it was to be that age, to be, say, five or seven or eight or however, you're sort of already in that framework where you're only looking at them as a parent. Do you know what I mean? Like, I find it difficult to remember, like, I was Felix's age. How did I feel when I was seven? What would seven year old Sarah and Felix do if they were playing together? Like, what would that be like? And I find that when I was thinking about that night, and allowing myself in that space as a little girl-- I think also because I'd like to be in control, and so I don't like to think back to the time when I was not in control of my surroundings. And so that was really helpful. And just engaging with people in a way that who don't know you and who can say things that kind of unlock a little bit for you. And I was talking to one of the women there, and I was saying, like, I was an only child and it was really hard. And that's always the lens at which I look through, being an only child. And she said, "Basically, yeah, but you clearly have a great relationship with yourself that allowed you to connect to all these other people in your life. And you did that because you're an only child." And I said, "You are right. That is true." I was an only child. I spent a lot of time by myself and I got really, really, comfortable with myself. I have a really great relationship with myself and that allowed me to connect with Nicholas at such a young age and form all these other relationships. And so just having those moments where you're just a little bit more open to insight and a little bit more vulnerable to say, I don't do this because it's scary, but I can do it right now.   

Beth [00:25:12] So do you see this as a therapy like experience just in fast forward? Is that kind of what you were looking for?  

Sarah [00:25:18] Yeah, for sure. I think that that's how a lot of people describe it. I've heard people describe psychedelics as like five years worth of therapy in one night. And I think that's a pretty good explanation. Like it just sort of break some stuff open and it really does quiet your ego in a way that allows you to sort of explore topics, think through things, feel feelings that maybe are a little too intense when your ego's all the way awake to really process and work through it. And, listen, I think that it's relevant to our work. I had a lot of thoughts and aha moments surrounding politics and how people move through the world through this experience. And all these things that you get stuck in one rut, you know that's what our brains do, right? They form these neural pathways and they get really deep. They get really, really, deep. And in some ways, like, they're either overactive and you have anxiety, they're underactive, you have depression. But our brains are so much more than that default mode network. There's so much more capacity there. That's why you can visually hallucinate. And I think his book is really fair and open and honest about you're not creating anything new. You can really, even with psychedelics, set the expectation and have a certain experience. It's like you're kind of going back to being a toddler. You're allowing more information in, in a way that we categorize and shut it off and learn to do that as adults, or else we'd be walking around like toddlers with our mouths hanging open like, "Oh, my God, what's that?" all the time. And so he does a good job in the book of explaining because he kind of struggles, I think, as a highly intellectual person with like, well, then what's the point? If we're not connecting to something deeper, we're really just in our own brains, then what are we doing? And I think he and why I was ultimately convinced, comes to the point of like, well, because our brains are powerful and there are some other tools in there we can tap if we can just take a moment to quiet that default mode network and step out of those deeply rooted neural pathways.  

Beth [00:27:17] That all make sense to me. And I will also tell you that I have felt anxious about having this conversation on the podcast because the umbrella of drug use contains so much and contains so much suffering.  

Sarah [00:27:31] Yep.  

Beth [00:27:32] And I wonder how you have processed that within yourself and what you would say to people who have not read Michael Pollan and who have not heard something yet that they think, well, it still makes sense to me, given all that we have experienced in this country around drug use. So how are you thinking through that?  

Sarah [00:27:47] No, I understand that. I have family members in recovery. I have addicts close to me. And I think it's really hard.  I would encourage everyone to do as much reading about this as they can because it is coming. There are phase four trials of either microdosing psychedelics or exploring what they can do for people with PTSD or medication resistant depression. So I think it's something that is going to become more and more a part of the conversation around mental health in this country. It already is. And some of the mistake we've made around drugs in the past in this country of lumping them all together and thinking they're all equally bad. I think we have all reached a place in this country where we've decided marijuana is not equally bad to crack. They are different drugs. They do different things. And I think that the more we can understand that and not reflexively just sort of react to anything that sort of falls under the umbrella of drugs, the better off will be. Because when you shut down the conversation, especially around young people who I don't think should be doing some of these drugs, and I think that's the risk and I think that's what people are reacting to, is because it becomes, like, well, if it's okay for older people to do, is it okay for a 16-year-old to do? But there's a nuanced way to talk about that. Of course it's not. We know that there's different risks along your life span and what's happening and what you're engaging with, including alcohol and cigarets and all these different substances. And so I get it and I think it's hard and I would never want to encourage. And I haven't quite found the words for how I'm going to talk to my own kids about this. They know I left town. They don't know why. I'm going to work on that because I know that's a delicate conversation I want to have with them. I don't want them to hear from me that life is to be escaped through substances. We talked to them about that. I mean, we have pretty open conversations about alcohol and other drugs in the community and kids that are experimenting with them. And so I get it. I get it. I think whenever we're sort of approaching this new territory in our culture surrounding a substance, which I think we absolutely are doing right now with this substance and others, it's a delicate balance. And I think just because it's delicate and hard and vulnerable and we're sort of working through some past harm, it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.  

Beth [00:30:18] You mentioned age, but I know that what you mean is something a little bit deeper than age. What kind of scaffolding do you think a person needs to have in place in life to get the most out of an experience like this?  

Sarah [00:30:33] I think that's hard. Being with a group with very diverse life experiences than I do, I think that there are people who have some real trauma that this can help them with. But I think, for me, as  someone who is just in middle age and who's done a lot of work on myself and thought, is there a little bit more I could do here? Is there a little space for a different type of work?  I told my therapist, who was very supportive, my dad, that I knew intellectually that we build all these popsicle stands and that they're just popsicle stands to make ourselves feel better, but I wanted to really feel that and not just think it. But I think so much of it is you have to build the popsicle stands first. You can't skip the popsicle stands.  Richard Ward talks about this, right? We build up our ego and then we break it down. But you got to build the ego first. You got to build the identity first. You have to go out there and do a job. You and I we're not going to graduate Transylvania University at 2003 and start Pantsuit Politics. That was impossible. That was impossible for many, many, different reasons. And it's hard to convey that to people and to especially the young people, because I think we put this pressure to, like, find your passion and escape your trauma and heal yourself. And it's like, man, you just got to live some life to get there. You just have to live some life to get to a space of whatever you want to call it. Religious awakening, enlightenment, connection-- whatever. There has to be some life lived in there first. And, I mean, the truth is that's not always attached to age. Some people have lived a lot of life by 18 years old. Heck, Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein when she was 18 years old. Like, there's a lot there. And I think it depends. But I would be careful. I would be careful because I do think the younger you are, the more there is a risk that you are-- I said I was just trying to get five years of therapy in a night. And that productivity is appealing to me, the efficiency there. But you can't escape some of the stuff when you're younger, you just have to live it. And you have to take some time to make the mistakes, to undo them or learn from them, I guess.  

Beth [00:32:49] So I'm interested in what takeaways you have from this experience that would apply more broadly. What do you feel like aside from sort of your deeply personal insights you want to share with the audience about the things you've uncovered?  

Sarah [00:33:05] I think the first night just feeling profoundly how people in my life, especially family members who are different, who've made different choices, whose politics are different than mine, but just letting that quiet and just see that they loved me and they were loving me the whole time the best they could. And I think there's a lot of people in our lives that are like that, that we just get swept up and it's hard to live with each other. It's hard to live among each other and the living can sometimes distract us from the fact that the loving is there, too. And I think that that was really wonderful and sort of powerful to feel. And I think for me, again, it was just that time frame, that this forward momentum of life. And, look, I think the pandemic in this way was an experience like that for people, just that hard stop to the momentum of everyday life in the status quo that gave us a minute to look around and go, wait, wait, wait. And I don't need to rethink my marriage or my career. So I don't have these big things that some people are exploring. I'm really happy in so many ways. And so to have that moment to think back on that little girl who wanted what I have right now was really powerful. It's hard to think, like, sometimes we look around and we're living lives that our eight-year-old self or our 13-year-old self was so hungry for. And some of is just like being in control as an adult. And some of it is out there getting to try the things you wanted to try and live the life you wanted to live. I liked that I had that real moment to feel, like, she wanted what I have. And that's an incredible thing to think about and to feel and sort of experience. And so that was really lovely. And then I don't have to sort of feel that hustle, feel that that forward momentum of, like, I'm trying to get somewhere. In a lot of places in my life, I'm already there. And that's an incredible gift. I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just living the life. In a lot of ways that is such a blessing and that I've always wanted.  I'm very thankful for my little experience to give me that insight. Beth, now I told you, if I had to do it again, I think it would be a much more profound experience if I could do it in a big group of like you and Nicholas. I think my mom would even be down and like a bunch of my close friends. Do you think you would do it?  

Beth [00:35:52] No, thank you.  I appreciate that compliment. I did not, in my rejection, wish to reject the spirit of that question. So thank you for the question and no, thank you on the invitation. Nothing about mind altering appeals to me at this moment in my life. I'm not going to rule it out forever. But at this moment in my life, you said a couple of words that I was like, nope, I'm still out. Stimulant is one of them.  I do not want that physical sensation in my body, especially having just gone through some weird heart feelings, I don't want any more of that.  

Sarah [00:36:37] I feel you.  

Beth [00:36:38] I like the idea of how do I create more flexibility around my neural pathways? I like that a lot. I would like to do that some other way. Like, I really want a long, silent retreat. I think that might have a similar effect, just like changing my senses pretty dramatically. And not just not talking, but no input, no reading, no listening to anything, no watching anything-- just being. I would really like to try that. That's about as far as I would like to push myself at this particular moment.  

Sarah [00:37:15] Yeah. I mean, I don't think the psilocybin has a stimulant effect. I think that's a different thing. But then, of course, you have visual hallucinations. Now, I will say this. I learned about Konna from a friend actually, who was not with me, that they call it nature's MDMA. And MDMA is different. I don't know if it produces more serotonin or what, but this particular herb just blocks the reabsorption. So whatever serotonin you have just last longer, which I thought was kind of cool. It's like you already had it, you're not really changing your brain chemistry, you're just kind of letting it sit for longer. But I get it. I will not be doing the stimulant again. And it was really funny because there's a lot of, like, listen to your body. And I was, like, if I listen to my body, my body is saying, "Why did you take this stimulant, sister?" So, again, I drink like a cup of coffee in the morning. So I'm super, super, sensitive to that. But I think our brains are just chemistry. I'm trying to think about what people always say about food. Nicholas says this all the time when we talk about processed food. He's like, all food is a process. An apple is processed, it's just processed by a tree. There was a really good article I read about formaldehyde and they're like avoid formaldehyde in your food. Well, there's formaldehyde in an apple. I'm just trying to remember there is so much chemistry going on in our brain and it is delicate and you can mess with it, no doubt about it. There is a long, long, long human history of cultures taking herbs and psychedelics and substances to allow themselves to sort of open up those neural pathways. And so because that's just that's what our brains are, like, this is all this chemistry. That's the question Michael Pollan is playing with. Well,  ifit's our brains are doing it anyway, are we doing anything special? Are we learning or seeing anything new or special or is this just brain chemistry? And so it is it's an interesting conundrum.  

Beth [00:39:08] Yeah, I do think that's fascinating. The other piece of this that I am kind of interested in is the group processing aspect.  

Sarah [00:39:17] Yeah.  

Beth [00:39:18] Which I think would be very hard to get to without some kind of special component inserted.  I was thinking about when I went to Kentucky's Governor Scholar Program between my junior and senior year of high school. You participate in this exercise called seminar. And seminar is a little bit like group therapy. I don't know if the GSP folks would appreciate me characterizing it that way, and it might be that I characterize it that way because I was real broken when I went to Governor Scholar. I had just gone through my car accident and I was very, very, sad. I was just very sad while I was there. But we would do the kind of exercises-- like it was a lot about philosophy and ethics. We would do the kind of exercises like the world's ending. Here are these 15 people. Only seven of them can go on the ship or whatever. Who are you sending and why? And we would kind of get to all of our biases and what had we learned about right and wrong in the world? And I loved that. And I thought that was the most powerful aspect of the experience that I had there. And those are questions much more interestingly answered at this point in my life, I think. I would love to talk with people my age about those kinds of questions and older people especially. And there aren't a lot of spaces to do that. And I do think it's kind of like a bummer to think about that you would need some sort of uncovering of everyone to allow for that sort of conversation. But I also am interested in finding those places where you can kind of sit around a fire and stare at it and think deeply in and walk out of the weird things that our insecurity just causes us to do when we're with other people.  

Sarah [00:41:05] Well, and I think that's what people are trying to capture when they drink together.  There's a lowering of inhibitions. There's also a lowering of, like, consciousness. You're kind of delicate, so we can talk, you know. And so I think that we're all trying to find that. There's a reason that this group exists, that people want to come together and be vulnerable and understand what each other is going through and be able to speak out loud what they're going through without all that editing that we do for each other. That's why therapy is good, because you don't feel like you're editing. You feel like you can just be honest and say what you're thinking and what you're going through. And we absolutely need more space for that. We absolutely need places for vulnerability and for people to say, "I feel broken about this," or what does it mean?" Why do we do all that? I think the only thing I kind of push back in that experience is because I have this amazing community with you and our listeners who are always willing to say, okay, but what does this mean? Not just for me, what does this mean for everybody? And there's a very individualistic undercurrent of some of this. Like, you're just unearthing yourself and your own journey and your own creativity and your own passion. And I think that can be kind of toxic. I think we need each other. Like the way you unearth yourself is in relationship with other people  in good ways and bad. In the middle of the night on Friday night, I was talking to Nicholas and I was talking about my trigger word is abrasive. I don't like it when people call me abrasive. And I was saying, like, I need to let that go and I need to make my peace with that. And he's like, well, it's always funny to me, you say all the time we need to rub each other's rough edges off. And he's, like, what does that but an abrasive? What rubs roughness off but another abrasive. And I was like, oh, man, you're right. And that's what I've learned in this community and with you, is that you have to show up in a way and feel responsibility to the people you're [Inaudible]. I think we want that vulnerability and that connection with no ongoing responsibility to each other. And I think the ongoing responsibility is where the work happens. I think the reason we love each other and we love our listeners is because we feel responsibility to one another. And I think that's where trust is built. That's where we learn and we grow. And we're on this journey and we're going somewhere instead of sort of cycling through the process over and over again. I think that's what's so powerful.  

Beth [00:43:25] Yeah. And I don't want to go out in search of that with a group of strangers. The kind of conversation I am seeking at this point in my life, I want it to be with people to whom I have ongoing responsibilities and who have ongoing responsibilities to me. And that's what makes it even harder to get to, right? Because the stakes are higher. It feels riskier. It feels more vulnerable. But I think that's where so much of the Enneagram conversation comes from. You know, people get annoyed with those of us who enjoy a good personality assessment or other tool. But all that is an announcement to the world of I want to be understood and I want to understand myself the best I'm capable of. And I want to understand other people the best I'm capable of. And we're all looking for that. I think about how many emails and comments we get that begin with the words "As a..." people are constantly announcing what it is about them that they want to be understood as they're about to say their thing. And sometimes I kind of bristle at it because I think you are welcome in this discussion without being a lawyer, ophthalmologists, teacher of English as a second language. Whatever it is that you're telling me, I don't need your credential. I'm still interested in what you have to say. But it is just another way of saying, no, I really want to be known. And I think that there is a lot of wandering through the world feeling unknown. I was incredibly lonely before we started doing this work together. And it's not a surprise to me at all that finding deeper conversation with you has enabled me to have greater friendship in my life. It's just not surprising. And closer connection to some of my family members. And there is a spiraling effect once you start to allow people in. And so I'm interested in ways to accelerate-- I mean, it sounds like this was an acceleration of that sort of therapy process. I'm interested in the acceleration of deepening my understanding of myself and of other people and our relationships. I just would like it to be in a different form for this particular moment.  

Sarah [00:45:43] Yeah, I think there's an idea too, that it just changes everything forever. And when you start to say, like, I think I'd like to explore this, you would be shocked how many people who just you're living a normal everyday life next to you that go, "Yeah, I've done it. It was great. I learned a lot." And then they just went back to their normal lives.  I think there's this idea that's like my husband is afraid I'm going to go then imma drop out. What is the famous phrase from the sixties? Tune in and drop out. But the more you hear from people, the more you realize that none of that was really happening. People are tuning in, they're having their moment and they're going back to raising their kids.  

Beth [00:46:18] Yeah. It doesn't feel like crossing a Rubicon or something to me, it is the physicality of it that scares me.  

Sarah [00:46:24] Yeah. Again, our bodies are tougher than sometimes we give them credit for. It's really funny. I think in some ways you and I are more comfortable with the vulnerability of conversation and less willing to play with any vulnerability around our bodies. I know I am. Like, when we were having the hunch. It freaked me out. And I think other people are the exact opposite. They will push their bodies, that doesn't bother them, but any vulnerability around sort of their heart or their spirit or their conversation psychology really freaks them out. I guess you got to find some steadiness in whatever realm most comfortable with you.  

Beth [00:46:56] Well, isn't that the truth for everything? Find a little steadiness. I hope that we do that here. Thank you all so much for joining us. Thank you, Sarah, for being so open about this part of your life. We'll be back with you here on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.  

[00:47:39] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:47:45] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:47:51] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Sarah [00:47:55] Martha Brinitski. Linda Daniel. Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers. Karen True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Kathryn Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:48:29] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McCue. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  


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