A Covid Check-Up

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Transcript

Beth [00:00:00] Well, stay humble is such good advice too, because you've said from the beginning, Sarah, that we're not good at assessing risk, especially when it comes to our kids, and I think that I can pinpoint even now with as much as, I still don't know, moments throughout the past two years when I have both overreacted and under reacted. Oh yeah, for sure. And I am trying very hard to stop doing either of those things and just be where we are with what we know in every moment. And even as I think that probably the risk is low for my children, I also realize more and more, especially with Delta, that how it impacts you often depends on things in our bodies that we don't already know about. 

Sarah [00:00:49] This is Sarah. 

Beth [00:00:50] And Beth. 

Sarah [00:00:51] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:00:53] The home of grace-filled political conversations. 

Beth [00:01:15] Hello, everyone, thank you for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics today. We're going to talk about some frantic hot takes on Donald Trump in 2024. Then we're going to take stock on COVID 19 because as fun as it would be to not talk about it anymore, it remains a pretty significant aspect of our lives. And outside of politics, we're going to discuss the division of labor in our households and the idea that in some relationships, one partner is perhaps pretending to be a lot less competent than they are or one partner is pretending the other partner is less competent than they are. 

Sarah [00:01:47] Before we get started, we are in the middle of our premium content drive where we take, you know, special moments at the beginning of every episode to talk about our premium content, to talk about your support and to ask you to join us in supporting the show. Look, we get such positive feedback about our show, about the premium content, about the community, and it means so much every time. But what I really want to say is that every single time you tell us a show helped you or that you learn something from the Nightly Nuance or that the News Brief made your morning, it matters. And what I really, really want you to understand is that it keeps getting better because you all keep investing in the show. You know, when we started asking for listener support several years ago, it was to afford audio engineering. We wanted the show to sound better and you guys showed up. And now I don't mind saying this. I think we have some of the best sound out there thanks to your support. And of course, Studio D. Now your support enables us to dedicate the time this content deserves it, pays our bills and expands our team. It helps us dedicate resources to series and special episodes, and that is all because of listener support. We need you. You know, it ebbs and flows based on the individual circumstances in people's lives. And so what we're really trying to do this drive is build a higher percentage of the listeners that support the show. You know, these two shows that we make every week are free for everyone, and they will stay that way as long as there's a Pantsuit Politics. And so we really depend on the small percentage of our audience that shows up and supports us financially through our premium content. 

Beth [00:03:25] We're going to close this drive out with a very special event our first live gathering for premium members. This will be available to both Apple subscriptions and Patreon subscribers, and it'll take place on the evening of Thursday, October 28th. And because of the timing, it's going to be a costume party, which will make it even better. We would love for you to join us. And speaking of community, I wanted to take a second, Sarah. We got a question on Instagram that I've been excited to talk to you about. Kate, asked how we think about audience capture. How do we show up and do this for years at a time without having our views shaped by the audience or without showing up in a way that just plays to the audience? 

Sarah [00:04:06] Well, that's easy for me to answer because of my very distinctive personality and my very short attention span. I love you all so much, but if I was just parroting back what you thought, I would get bored so quickly. And this work is fueled by curiosity and interest and passion. And so I just I like I just couldn't. I just couldn't. And that's that's the the long and I guess short answer. 

Beth [00:04:32] I say it's not really my goal to avoid audience influence, at least. I love learning from the audience. I love changing my mind. I love evolving and asking new kinds of questions. So I have changed a lot from the beginning of the show. I try to keep myself grounded, though, in why I'm changing or what's important to me, and I don't ever want to show up here for the purpose of eliciting a love or hate from the people listening. I don't like our thumbs up, thumbs down culture. And so for me, I want to be the best version of myself always, and our audience helps me do that. But I still make lots of people mad with the things I say. There are still people who feel a lot of tension around my viewpoints, and that's OK. I just like the relationship that we have with the audience, and I think that because I feel like it's a relationship, it's a relationship that, much like Roy and Keeley, as we discussed last episode, can handle some stress and can handle some tension and some discomfort. And that's what makes it grow stronger. So thank you, Kate, for asking thank you for all being part of this community. And thank you to everyone who helps us make pantsuit politics by supporting us with your dollars. 

Sarah [00:05:41] And we hope more of you will join us and we are so excited about our costume party on Thursday, October 28th. If you are an Apple Podcasts subscription member, there is a form in our show notes for you to fill out so we can make sure and get the link for the event to you. Here's a here's a little a little preview, Beth and I will be wearing the same costume, but we're not going to tell you what it is. You're just going to have to join our premium subscription community and join us on Thursday, October 28 for our costume party. 

Beth [00:06:22] Sarah, I don't know if you saw this, but on Wednesday, the 45th twice impeached and banned from Twitter President Donald J. Trump in a statement, saying If we don't solve the presidential election fraud of 2020, which we have thoroughly and conclusively documented, Republicans will not be voting in 22 and 24. It is the single most important thing for Republicans to do. 

Sarah [00:06:43] OK. I did see it. Did I clap a little bit with glee? I did. Look, he is who he is. He is not going to change. There's a lot of breathless coverage right now about his participation in 2024. First of all, miss me with the 2024 coverage. Y'all, three years ago, we didn't even know COVID was going to happen. Y'all trying to predict three years out is bold, it's bold. I think it's really, really brave and bold, but I don't want to participate in it. However, I mean, it is. It is indisputable that right now in 2021, he still holds a lot of sway over the Republican Party and this is what he's going to do with it. He's not letting go. He's not going to accept his loss. He's going to take whoever wants to shackle themselves to him down with him as he continues to fight for, as I've argued before, his psychic survival. That's what this is about, his psychic survival, he cannot accept that he lost. He does not have the psychological capacity for that. And so, you know, I kind of shook my head, but I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Of course, he's going to do this. I mean, his rhetoric surrounding 2020 hurt him in 2020. Without a doubt. This rigged election and the mail in voting all that rhetoric. So he doesn't care. And he certainly won't listen to anyone who tells him like this could hurt you. This could hurt Republicans, because what does it matter? That's not what this is about. This is not about the Republican Party. This is about his psychic survival. 

Beth [00:08:16] This statement is probably related to the fact that a Georgia judge dismissed the last major lawsuit over the 2020 election. And I think for people who have had questions about the 2020 election, all I can really say at this point is that court after court after court has reached the same conclusion. People who have been specifically hired to find election fraud on a massive scale have concluded that it wasn't there. Courts don't uniformly reach these conclusions. The reason we have a Supreme Court docket that's as full as it is is because courts disagree all the time. This is just one where we had an election that reached a definitive result. That was a reflection of how people voted, and it's time to move on from that. This sea of editorials about how Democrats are in disarray and Trump is definitely running and oh my gosh, it's going to be Trump versus Biden and a 2020 do over. I have decided, one, I'm not interested in borrowing that anxiety right now, and two, I think that it helps me to think of electoral coverage as honeydew melon hear me out. I like honeydew melon.

Sarah [00:09:19] That's perfect because I don't like honeydew melon.

Beth [00:09:21] I like it. But listen, in most fruit salads, if we're being honest, it's filler. Mm hmm. And there is even for those of us who really enjoy honeydew melon, a very narrow season when it's good and the rest of the time, it's just not good. And I think that that happens with electoral coverage. There is a narrow season when it's really important. You can learn a lot from it about yourself as a citizen and about what's going on around you. But I don't think that time period is in October of 2021, before we have midterms in 2022 and way before we have a presidential election in 2024. 

Sarah [00:09:59] His statement is also a reflection of the increasing pressure, coverage, subpoenas surrounding the Jan. 6th investigation in Congress. Steve Bannon has now defied the subpoena Congress sent him claiming executive privilege, which I think is bold. Bold, considering you no longer worked for the president for nigh on years at this point. But whatever. And that's what, I think that's what's so hard about coverage of 2020/2024. Is everything you said is true. We should move on and the results are indisputable. But it's like tied together with January 6th, which we can't move on from. We shouldn't move on from because there are still investigations. There are still consequences I think that need to be played out. I think we will still continue to learn more, particularly about the administration's participation. And that's what he's trying to avoid, too. I think that's what he's trying to deflect from. That's why he's telling them to defy the subpoenas. But look, I mean that congressional committee is playing for keeps and they don't have a lot of time, which is also relevant to upcoming electoral cycles. So I think that we're going to see even more intensity surrounding those investigations. 

Beth [00:11:20] It's also tied to the topic of free and fair elections, which we should always be working to improve as we form a more perfect union. I asked people on Twitter earlier this week, What's most important to you from Congress right now? What's your top priority? And it was almost unanimously voting rights. And the fact that legislation has not advanced through the Senate on voting rights and making sure that we are holding back state legislatures who are trying to do the bidding of Trump based on the 2020 election results is disappointing and needs it needs to happen. And it was interesting to me that as much as we're talking about infrastructure and reconciliation right now, our folks are saying all of that is important. Yes, climate change is hugely important. But none of that gets done. If we don't protect against gerrymandering, we don't protect against state legislatures trying to just reverse the results of the popular vote in their states if they don't like them. And I think that's correct. I think that's a correct prioritization. 

Sarah [00:12:18] I don't know. I think that prioritization is a reflection of where you asked, which is Twitter, which is not where most Americans are as far as 100 percent and probably not where most Americans are when it comes to their actual congressional priorities. I think that would be a really low on the list answer for the majority of Americans, and I don't and I can make that case too. I can make the case that the voting rights focus is a reflection of some of the coverage as well. And I think that there are things affecting the everyday lives of Americans that are at least just as important as that legislation, particularly the infrastructure bill and the priorities inside the reconciliation package, would have a huge impact. I mean, I think that's what's really hard, right? And I think this is important as we talk about electoral coverage because there's this subtext when we talk about congressional priorities. Will it affect the next election or will it affect Americans? Right? And I think that's hard because there's a lot of things that Congress could do, spend political capital on that would change people's lives. Like the child income tax credit, like the, you know, the the payments that have dang nearly not eliminated poverty but dramatically reduced it. That we know from lots of social science and lots of political science people don't really associate with a party. It doesn't come to play when they vote or it's hitting populations who historically don't vote in higher numbers. And you know what? I'm fine with that. I'm fine with good governance that doesn't play out well electorally. I think we should do everything we can as Democrats to make sure we connect those things. But I don't want it to stop us from doing the right thing because it won't impact us electorally. I don't. You know, and I think that that's what's really hard is that's the give and take between governance while you're running right? Like, I heard on NPR this morning they were talking about President Biden's work to open the Port of Los Angeles for 24 hours. And how hard the supply chain is because it's so much, all of it basically is held by private players. And she was like, well, the risk is tying himself to a problem he can't fix and I thought or liked, and she was saying, like, that's the risk electorally. And I thought, Man, I hope he doesn't make that calculus every time. Man, I hope he just works on problems and says it might hurt me, but it's the right thing to do. I feel our governor doing that. I feel him doing things that like, I know I'm going to take it for this decision politically, but it's the right thing to do. I'm going to do it anyway. 

Beth [00:14:58] Yeah. And that's I mean, honestly, my prioritization of the voting issues is because I prioritize structure because I think the structure is the thing that holds is the thing that endures crisis to crisis, administration, to administration, Congress, to Congress. And so that really aligns with my viewpoints. And I totally understand that most voters can't even have a discussion about that, right? It doesn't make their radar. And I'm not saying it's because they're uneducated or disinterested. I'm saying because they're they're busy living life and you have to study these issues to follow that kind of thing closely. And not everyone does or should. And I hope that they would do it anyway, because I do think it's really important to our structure and to keeping things moving forward. And I think you're right, everything ultimately leads to elections in the analysis because there are people who need to study how everything leads to elections and how it will affect the next cycle. And that's important work, and I'm not mad at people for doing it. What I do get tired of is being invited to a stress party prematurely. 

Sarah [00:15:57] Yep, yep. Because you know, it is important coverage, but it doesn't have to be coverage that's clickbait. It doesn't have to be coverage that feeds this narrative of all is lost. We're going to be right back where we were in 2020. It's just not helpful, like because we know that coverage is not just coverage. That coverage has impact on how people feel about the situation on the ground. And I just wish there was more acknowledgment of that. 

Beth [00:16:26] Well, especially how people feel who pay attention to all the coverage. It's like you take people who are already pretty baked into their views because they pay attention a lot and bake them even more. Yeah, and over bake them right to the point of drying out. 

Sarah [00:16:40] We do not need that in America right now. 

Beth [00:16:42] We're good, we're really, really good. And there are other things to pay attention to. You know, I think it's really interesting that Social Security is doing this big bump to payments in 2022 it's the biggest cost of living adjustment in 40 years. How that will play out with prices going up, you know, will inflation take that or will that make a big difference in people's lives? I don't think we know that yet. And understanding how we're going to fund that through Social Security, like there are so many interesting angles to that story. That's just a harder story to tell and get people interested in. Even though Social Security affects people's real lives so much more than who might be emerging as a big fundraiser for the 2024 presidential election. Right. It's just it's tricky, and it's a cycle that we need to get out of. And I don't know exactly how, but I think it's worth trying. 

Sarah [00:17:32] We've been doing good news on the news brief on Thursday. I had so many good news stories today as we're recording on Thursday that I didn't even get to that one. It was on my list and I missed it. And I've been struck since we've been doing this practice on the news brief of sort of good news. And what I try to describe as good news is progress, right? It's not like I'm not trying to find like, this town rallied around this person who really should have just had good health insurance from the beginning. And what I've noticed is like, there's a lot out there. I don't have to dig for it almost every week. There is progress being made, but they're just not the stories that grab people's attention because, you know, we sort of have a negativity bias anyway. And, you know, conflict and in emotions like anger and fear and anxiety motivate us to click and engage. But there's lots of progress being made. There's lots of good news. Like I said, you don't even have to look that hard. And that practice of doing that every Thursday has really, really shown me that. And I think that's the other reason I've reacted so negatively to the 2024 coverage. 

Beth [00:18:37] And that's a good segue way because as we start to talk about COVID 19 and take stock of where we are, there are lots of good pieces, lots of progress happening in addition to some pieces that are still tough. So. Up next, we'll be talking about where we are with COVID. 

Beth [00:19:07] Sarah, I heard from a listener recently that she feels kind of adrift with COVID 19 whenever it's not in the headlines, and I very much related to that feeling because you're always in this paralyzed Decision-Making state if you're not hearing exactly what we need to be doing. So it seemed like a good time to just take stock of what do we know? What do we not know? What have we learned so far? Where are we with COVID? 

Sarah [00:19:30] So let's go over the numbers first. I mean, it obviously depends on where you live. Alaska is having a difficult time right now, but overall transmission and death rates are trending downward. For the first time since early August, the U.S. is averaging fewer than 90000 new COVID 19 cases per day. That's down more than 40 per cent so especially where the virus had the strongest foothold, like in the south, where we live in the southeast. Those numbers have dropped. 

Beth [00:19:59] Things are still pretty tough in the West and Upper Midwest. And as you said in Alaska, we do still see children's numbers much higher than we want to. About 25 percent of weekly reported cases come from children. But hospitalization and death rates are dropping on a national basis, and that is is good news and it's something to feel hopeful about. And that's happening because people are getting vaccinated. 77 percent of people who are eligible in the United States for a vaccine have gotten at least one dose. 12 percent of people 65 plus have gotten a booster shot already. 35 states have fully vaccinated more than half their residents, and five states have fully vaccinated more than two thirds. 

Sarah [00:20:36] And I just want to add another positivity note that this is happening around the world. India's vaccination since they were hit with a terrible delta wave this summer is incredible. It's like they've vaccinated like 94 million people or something. The number was so, so high. So it's not just in the United States. Now that does not mean that there are still areas of the world that are struggling with  vaccination rates. We all know that to be true, but they went from having so little vaccination to now they're like number two in the world for most people vaccinated. 

Beth [00:21:06] We also know that the Biden administration is under pressure to force Moderna specifically to do more to help with that global vaccine supply. Moderna has been under fire for supplying mostly to wealthy countries, almost exclusively to wealthy countries, and the Biden administration is looking hard at that issue and putting pressure on Moderna and the other global issue that I just wanted to bring up today, as we're being honest about both the struggles and the successes here, is that there is a real gender gap, especially in African countries. Women in African countries are worrying that the vaccines will jeopardize their ability to have children, and in many countries, their marriages and livelihood depend on having lots of children. Some women are breadwinners in African countries and worry that they can't miss any work to deal with side effects from the vaccines. So it's not just in the in the United States where we have bad information out there- rumors, worries about the vaccines. And scholars are starting to say, Hey, everybody, African women are the least vaccinated population in the world and we need to pay attention to that. 

Sarah [00:22:12] But the vaccination mandates seem to have been really successful. We heard from Jessica, who shared an anecdote about two family members who'd been very hesitant in sort of their reasons were amorphous, as many people are. But one of their family members got a new job with a large corporation that had on-site testing requirements for anyone not vaccinated. They could get tested twice a week, and so they both went got vaccinated because they didn't want to deal with the testing requirements. And look, you look at those numbers, and that seems to be what is playing out. Beth, I really wanted to stop and talk about this and emphasize this because I think especially at the, you know, in August, in the midst of the Delta Surge, when we were talking about vaccine mandates, when we were talking about mask requirements at school, you know, it felt like the percentage of the population who was just never going to get a vaccine was really high, just not hesitant, but belligerent. I mean, I feel like on the show, even we described it as like 20 to 30 percent, like they're not going to budge. And what we're seeing from these mandates is just, it's not that high. Like when you look at corporations with thousands and thousands of employees like Delta, like United, you're seeing like one to two percent of their employee population actually quit their job because they refused to get the vaccine. And I, you know, we have such a negativity bias, and it's easy for those moments in time where that particular group seems so loud to get stuck in our memories. And for the fact that the numbers don't support that they were as big of a group as we thought they were. Like, I just I really want us to like put it in our brains permanent memory. That once push comes to shove, that loud minority was just loud and there were not as many truly belligerent people as we thought there were. 

Beth [00:24:14] Well, I hope that we also held space for the people who were not belligerent, but just really had questions. And I think that those numbers have really shifted because you have seen people have time to get the vaccine and be OK because you have seen more companies. You've seen full authorization from the FDA. You've seen the White House just hammering home these messages. And I know people think that doesn't matter. But the federal vaccine mandate hasn't even been implemented yet, and these numbers are shifting because the government asked for one. Again, I don't think that that is good. As a matter of policy, I still have objections to it. I don't have objections to businesses making these decisions for themselves and doing their own risk calculus. But either way, I think it matters that more and more people are saying, No, this really is best for you and it's best for us, and it's best for all of us, and it's best for the economy. And people are coming along even somewhat begrudgingly, and we're seeing hospital and death rates dropping. I mean, listen, that is the most important thing to me. I'm a hard neutral on the method to get to hospitalization and death rate dropping. That's what I want. I want fewer sick people and fewer dead people from COVID 19. And and this is working to get us there. 

Sarah [00:25:32] Now, that's not to say that these aren't still polarizing, we have the governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, issued an executive order on Monday banning all entities in the state from implementing vaccine mandates without including carve outs for reasons of personal conscience or medical reasons, including prior recovery from COVID 19. And it includes private businesses and it supersedes any local orders that conflict with it. So this will put many businesses in the position of either violating the federal or the state order now. Federalism is a thing. Supremacy is a thing. I don't expect this order to stand and you have big corporations in the state like Southwest saying, Yeah, we're still going to do that vaccine mandate.

Beth [00:26:09] Well, because the consequence is like a thousand dollars. So yeah, they're going to they're going to pay the thousand dollars and move on. 

Sarah [00:26:16] So what we're moving into now is not just talk of vaccines, but talk of booster shots. It was really interesting. I read this week that more Americans are getting a booster dose of coronavirus vaccine than are getting their first shot. And the Biden administration has been telling states to prepare for vaccinations for the five to 12 set, which I personally can't wait for. Where are you at with boosters and kid vaccines, Beth? 

Beth [00:26:42] I'm excited for kids vaccines. I'm ready to have that yesterday. With boosters, I'm still in a really neutral place. I'm just waiting to hear what they tell us. You know, I understand that with both boosters and natural immunity, there are still lots of questions out there. I read a really good piece that will link in the show notes from the New York Times about natural immunity. Today we get hammered on this. Sometimes people are like, Why don't you ever talk about this? Because I don't know what to tell you yet. I have read that yes, you probably have some protection after you've been sick, but the level of protection you have is going to depend on a whole lot of things. Some of them that we can ascertain for whole populations and some that are very individual to you. And so again, hard neutral, whatever the information turns out to be I'm with. I wish very much that we could assume that if you have had this once, you're good to go. It is clearly not the case that you are not going to get sick again. And I personally know too many people who've had a very, very difficult second case of COVID 19 to say that I think you are, you are good to go. But I'm not fighting with people about raising this as a topic, and I think that it's interesting to consider, especially in the face of, again, a global vaccine shortage still, what's ethical in terms of getting a booster? What's ethical in terms of considering how having both a vaccination and having had COVID 19 impact your personal immunity? I just think there are a lot of unresolved questions. I don't like being in unresolved question territory, but that's where I'm hanging out until I have a better understanding. 

Sarah [00:28:22] I think that's right. David Leonhardt at The New York Times Morning Brief has been doing some of the best writing on COVID, in my personal opinion. And he did a piece recently where he was just like, We all have to stay humble. You know, I think all the time about how Michelle told us, we're still studying the 1918 pandemic. We're going to be studying this for decades. I mean, we've gained some information. I was excited to see that we have the study saying JNJ recipients who mix and match who go and get an mRNA vaccine booster that seems to show better results. I'm glad we got some information out there for those people. I'm definitely also going to get my kids vaccinated, even though I do not think COVID is a great risk for kids. And that's what the data shows over and over and over again. Everybody gave Emily Oster hard time, but I think she's been right about the whole pandemic. The reason I'm going to get the vaccine, even though I also don't believe it's a great risk to kids, is because I don't want it to continue to spread and become a great risk to kids or anybody else, right? And so I'm here to do my family's part in reducing the spread because, you know, I don't think we're in a downward slide to an endemic, that's for sure. I think things are getting better. I think at this point, so many millions of people either have some sort of natural immunity, are vaccinated or both. I mean, we got a lot of breakthrough cases with Delta or people who've had COVID before they were vaccinated. So I definitely think things are going to get better, but I'm trying to stay humble like he advises. 

Beth [00:29:48] Well, stay humble is such good advice too because you've said from the beginning, Sarah, that we're not good at assessing risk, especially when it comes to our kids. And I think that I can pinpoint even now with as much as, I still don't know, moments throughout the past two years when I have both overreacted and under reacted. 

Sarah [00:30:05] Oh yeah, for sure. 

Beth [00:30:06] And I am trying very hard to stop doing either of those things and just be where we are with what we know in every moment. And even as I think that probably the risk is low for my children, I also realize more and more, especially with Delta, that how it impacts you often depends on things in our bodies that we don't already know about. I really hate the narrative, like any time you're talking about this with people and you hear about someone who's gotten really sick when someone will say, Well, did they have something going on already? Did they have a preexisting condition or when they'll say, like, defensively and this person was really healthy, worked out every day, whatever. Because I think that part of what COVID is accelerating is our trend in understanding that there's still so much we don't know about our bodies that health doesn't look one particular way. That health doesn't mean one particular thing. And so I am trying to avoid those patterns. I'm also excited Sarah, though, about talking about it, moving towards endemic but not being there yet. I think that a lot of people have understandably felt frustrated that we've put so much emphasis on prevention instead of cure. And I love that we're getting such good news about Merck's antiviral pill because it shows that we have been working both tracks. We just haven't had good news to report on the treatment side yet. And so it's really nice to see Merck moving forward with this much cheaper option than monoclonal antibodies or Regeneron. This much cheaper option that would allow people to get a prescription go home instead of be in the hospital for prolonged stays. And see this almost 50 percent decline in serious illness and death once you have contracted COVID. 

Sarah [00:31:54] Look, I'm excited about any semi-successful antiviral treatment. We don't have a lot of those across all viral infections, so any progress in treating viruses, I mean, that's what we hear over and over again, especially as parents. Well, don't take antibodies, antibiotics. We don't really have anything. If it's a virus, you just got to watch it. So I'm here for any medication that helps treat viruses and we'll see other places where what we learned in COVID benefits us in other areas. I am here will be first in line for an mRNA flu vaccine. Do that yesterday. I know they're busy. I am here for an mRNA vaccine that is more effective against the flu. I freaking hate getting the flu. I know nobody loves it. But I had a friend say, Well, why have you decided to start getting the flu vaccine? I was like, Because I hate the flu and I keep getting it. And even if it's a 10 percent reduction in chances, I'm a take it. And so I think there will be other areas. It feels like COVID accelerated medical breakthroughs, medical technologies and those breakthroughs are just going to compound and compound and compound and change the way we deal with not only viral infections, but lots of other things as well. 

Beth [00:33:00] Well, this really has changed my understanding of what vaccines are supposed to do. I got a flu vaccine this year also, even though I have not gotten it consistently in the past. I've gotten it some years and not others, not a lot of rhyme and reason around when I've gotten it and not to be honest with you. I have had years when I've gotten a flu vaccine and I've gotten the flu pretty bad during those years. What COVID has helped me understand is that you don't always get a vaccine just to not get sick. You get it to not get as sick as you possibly could. You get it to try to help keep yourself out of the hospital because that benefits not only you, but other people. That's part of what makes me excited about this pill from Merck, too, because we're seeing such an exodus of people leaving health care and especially leaving nursing homes and other long term care settings. I don't think we will understand for years the impact that COVID has had on people working in and around medicine. Health care employment is down by 524000 jobs since February of 2020, and 80 percent of those losses are in nursing and residential care facilities. So when you think about just the exhaustion, the fatigue, the anger, the frustration that people in health care are feeling, any places where we can relieve some pressure points I'm for. 

Sarah [00:34:19] And that's what I think is the overall story of where we are right now. We're just relieving some pressure points. We have not reached the finish line. But the pressure is easing and it is OK to name that. Say it and celebrate it. That's something I would really like to articulate is it feels like we get stuck in this place where we can't acknowledge successes. We can't acknowledge positive trends because it feels like you are disrespecting the loss of life or the seriousness of this pandemic. And I would just like to abandon that attitude because I don't think it's healthy. I don't think it helps us integrate what we have learned since March 2020 into our lives moving forward. And I think we're going to and I want us to and I, you know, to tie it back to our conversation in the first block, that's part of what drives me crazy about the electoral conversations. This pandemic is going to affect everything. We talk a lot about the great resignation. We have acclimated to this idea that people across our country are reexamining their lives and quitting their jobs to go do something that makes them happier. That's just become the water we swim in. I mean, it's like, I hope everybody takes a moment and thinks, now listen, listen to what they're saying on the news. People are quitting their jobs and changing their lives because they want to do something that makes them happier. And like that's not just a cultural trend, that's going to be something that impacts every single area of American life, including our electoral politics. And I just I I want to keep our eye on that. I want to be able to acknowledge that COVID has changed everything, and it doesn't have to just be a conversation about the increase in suffering that is absolutely has been a part of this pandemic, the increase in loss and grief that has absolutely been a part of this pandemic. But that there's all this complexity tied up when you have a pandemic that changes everything.

Beth [00:36:33] Because people leaving their jobs to do something that they enjoy more from the pandemic will accelerate the use of artificial intelligence. It will accelerate all of these technological trends we are seeing in terms of replacing people with robots in some spaces because people don't want to be in those spaces anymore. And what that leads to, who knows, some of it will be fantastic. Some of it will be terrible. There'll be a whole lot of in-between. I really loved about the Loki series on Disney that they gave us this visual way to think about the timeline and how any deviation from a particular storyline changes all of it. And we're living through that. I think it's going to change the way we think about ourselves in relation to other countries for ever. I'm very happy to see as we think about progress, that non-essential travel from Mexico and Canada into the United States is going to resume in early November with proof of full vaccination. I'm very discouraged that we're still using a Trump era policy around the pandemic to turn away asylum seekers. I'm encouraged that the World Health Organization has named 26 new scientists to an advisory board to study the origins of COVID, but not only to study the origins of COVID, which has been an embarrassing, fraught disaster for the World Health Organization and a lot of ways. So correcting that is important, but also examining the origins of emerging diseases is going to be, I think, really beneficial. Just who knows what comes of all this. And again, not to say, well, silver linings abound because they don't. We have 700000 people who have died and about 200000 of those had access to vaccines, and that is a tragedy. And also, I just want to be able to see it all in context as much as we are able to from our historic vantage point and think about what could come next and what we have control over in what comes next. 

[00:38:30] And in the process, I think that advice that you quoted Sarah is really good. Get vaccinated and stay humble. Like, that's a fantastic place to leave this discussion. We'll keep checking in. We're interested in what you have to add as we take stock on where we are on COVID 19. I also just want to briefly mention, this is not an ad, but if you like this sort of big picture, multifaceted, where are we on COVID, I highly recommend Axios Vitals from Tina Reed. It is a free newsletter on health care issues, and it is so, so good. So get vaccinated, stay humble. We'll keep learning together. 

Beth [00:39:14] Sarah, what's on your mind outside of politics? 

Sarah [00:39:17] Well, Beth, you know, I love Tik Tok and there's been a lot of conversation on Tik Tok about what women are calling weaponized incompetence on the parts of their husband. Like, people are showing videos of grocery lists for their husband, where they're literally like cutting out pictures of the item. From a magazine and pasting them on a piece of paper. So their husbands don't get confused at the grocery store.

Beth [00:39:45] I'm struggling because this is an audio medium, not a visual one, and all I have is like my facial expression in response to this. 

Sarah [00:39:53] And there's just like a lot of rage-filled responses of like this is weaponized incompetence. This is how men get. We teach men to get out of things. Laura Tremaine had a great conversation about this in her Insta stories, where women also fessed up to doing this, where both partners are like, Yes, sometimes I do this to pretend I don't know how to do something because I don't want to do it, but I definitely think men do this a lot with regards to household labor with regards to caregiving. It's taught as a coping mechanism and that can be by their own parents or their partners who want to keep control. I think that's a lot of this too, but it was such an interesting conversation and I wanted to hear what you thought about weaponised incompetence. 

Beth [00:40:33] It's hard for me to speak intelligently about this because this is just so not my relationship and I don't think it ever has been. We can all examine emotional labor over time in the course of our relationships, but Chad and I have never treated one another, I don't think like, well, you're too stupid to do this, so I have to or I'm going to pretend that I can't handle this because I want to shove it off on you. I feel like we've been pretty open and honest about what we do and why we do it. It blows my mind that so many people, I think, feel so undervalued in many places in life that it is crucial to hold on to control over certain like household tasks so that they know that they are making a difference in the world. It makes me sad and I don't feel sorry for people in that situation because I'm sure I've been there in other areas of my life. But that's what I see here. Like the thread is like, where are you not feeling valued and respected enough to have to use this kind of manipulation within the relationship? 

Sarah [00:41:42] Well, I've definitely weaponized incompetence, I'm just going to fess up to that right now, my husband, if he was here, would call me on because I definitely have done this like, Oh, I don't know how to or I definitely do it around cooking because I don't cook. I don't really know how to cook. So I'm like, Well, you just might get it because it'll taste better. Nicholas does not weaponize incompetence because he's generally a very competent person, but what he, I think is more forthright about is just saying, I don't care about that. You care about it, I don't care about it, and I'm not going to do it. And I think that's what's underneath that. Not that these people don't care like men being accused of this behavior, don't care about their kids. But there's just a level of performance, quality control, whatever you want to call it, that is required of the wife that the husband doesn't share that value, right? And I think sometimes it's fair and that sometimes it isn't. It's as diverse as marriages itself. And what I mean by that is, you know, I have fought back a lot and said, Yeah, I care about it because if it doesn't get done this way, I'm the one that has to deal with the fallout. I'll never forget an article I read earlier where it was like, Well, men don't care about how kids look because they don't get judged based on how the kids look when they're out in public. You know, if a kid goes out like a ragamuffin, everybody's like, Look at that dad taking that kid out on an errand. If a mother brings a child out looking like a ragamuffin, they're like, Why couldn't she get her kid dressed? You know? So I think that's there's so much societal pressure on women. And so the control comes out as a manifestation of the expectations placed specifically on women with inside relationships and with regards to parenting. And then sometimes I think the, you know, the control is misplaced, I think the control is just a cry for like, can you not see that I'm doing everything? And so I am sort of crying for help or crying in rage. I'm reading a really great fiction book right now called The Husbands that has a great sort of take on this entire conversation. And it's just it's it's hard and it's not there's not one easy fix for all of it. I mean, besides culturally just value caregiving. If we could get on that, that'd be great. But I do think a lot about this because I have three sons and I don't want to teach them that. I don't want to teach them that there's certain things within a home that just women are better at and that women can do. Let me give you an example. I was with some family members and I said, Has this male family member purchased a gift for this wedding? And the family member responded, Oh, well, his sister told me, men don't really have to do that and don't have to buy gifts for the weddings. And I was like, That's bullshit. Of course he does. Just because he's single doesn't mean he doesn't have to buy a present just like every other person. But it's so gendered. Like that stuff is so gendered. And so, you know, if you're in a partnership, these gendered expectations just feel like such a burden. 

Beth [00:44:42] I think some of what bothers me in this conversation is that it is easy to stay in a framework of committed relationships being transactional or like point scoring, or what's the ledger for you? We're going to link to an article about this that references like even this coming up around women faking it in intimate contexts, which is another thing that just does not happen in my relationship. But I think that that's getting to some of what's underneath this, that that a lot of people are trying to get an a at being a mother, or a father, or a wife, or a spouse. And I just I really want to break out of that mold. I watched such a good video this morning. It was linked in outspoken newsletter, which is a newsletter from the UK that I love about parenting kids around sex. And it was from maybe 2015 YouTube video and it describes sex as like an improvizational jam session with a band and how that's how you want to think of it. It shouldn't be the same every time when you start playing with other people, it's really awkward and weird at first. Sometimes you're going to have on your jam session hat, but you don't feel like playing and that's fine too. It's like it's really great on consent. But I wish that I had seen it much earlier in my life because I thought, this is what every relationship ought to feel like. Like every relationship ought to feel like a jam session all the time, like where we're improvising, we're playing off of each other. So it's about our energy level, not about this is your chore and this is my chore, but what's going on in the context of our lives right now and who needs extra help and who needs extra support and who just needs a dang minute on the couch when it's bedtime, so the other person handles the kids? You know, I that give and take to create something together. I like so much better than the idea of what's the division of labor in your house. 

Sarah [00:46:42] Yeah, it's just hard to get there when you have cultural expectations, media messages, not to mention your family of origin and what your family of origin taught you about gendered expectations inside the household. Let it be said that every day I think about like, how can I raise these boys so their partners thank me and don't hate me later in life? And that's just it's really hard to sort all that out because what they you know, what's hard to improvise is when one person does value a clean house more than the other. When clutter runs, you know, that's the case of my marriage. Clutter runs up one side of me and down the other, and Nicholas doesn't even notice. And that's just that. Like, that's just a different set of values, right? But you know, the saving grace of our marriage is that he likes to cook. So he does the cooking and the grocery shopping. And that just gets you close to a 50-50 division of labor almost under almost any rubric because it's a massive amount of work. And so but it's been hard and there have been I remember one point where we had a little calendar on our refrigerator and I marked every single day I unloaded the dishwasher, and he didn't because I. And it took him like three weeks, four before he was like, What do you mark on this calendar? And I was like, Funny, you should ask? Ha ha, let me tell you. So I've definitely been point scoring at different parts of our relationship, and part of it has gotten better just because my kids can do more now. I don't. Neither of us unload the dishwasher, so there's no need to keep score. But you know, the siblings do. He it last time. But listen, it's better than the alternative and like getting more and more help from them around the house. And of course, you know, as we've talked about on Insta stories and in our gift guide, paying for help, but for help taking care of the house. But it's really hard. I think it's just it's it's a constant juggling act and to me, you know, at least in my experience, a fertile ground for resentment, just a very, very fertile ground for resentment. And you know what I always say to my friends when we have these conversations, like sort of in social settings, like when I hear a female friend say, well, like he doesn't know how to do that. I always want to respond, well, then I'm not going to hire him as my lawyer, because if he can't handle packing your child for a weekend at Grandma's, then I don't trust his competency when it comes to my taxes or my contracts or my surgery. So just putting that out there. 

Beth [00:49:08] Well, we're very interested to continue this conversation with you because relationships are as varied as humanity itself and the combinations people arrive at in their households is an endless source of fascination for me, and I always learn something hearing about how other people handle these topics. Thank you so much for listening today. We again just want to remind you that we would love for you to join us with our premium content, and the show exists because you want it to. So thank you so much to everyone who has already invested, and we hope that more of you will. You can check the links in the show notes to access all of our premium content platforms and enjoy the fun we're having in those spaces and get in on this costume party action. We will be back with you here next Tuesday to talk about multilevel marketing companies, a conversation we've been preparing for for a while and can't wait to have until then have the best weekend available to you. 

Beth [00:50:07] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Alise Napp is our managing director.

Sarah [00:50:12] Megan Hart and Maggie Penton are our community engagement managers. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:50:19] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:50:23] Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, David McWilliams, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, Danny Ozment, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Karin True, Amy Whited, Emily Holladay, Katy Stigers, Nick and Alysa Vilelli. 

Beth [00:50:57] Ashley Thompson, Melinda Johnston, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Michelle Wood, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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