Who’s to Blame for #DeviousLicks?

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Transcript

Sarah [00:00:00] Real change that's going to help our kids is going to happen at the community and societal level as hardworking as me and my circle limits are, There's just a limit of how much I can do as an individual parent. And so I'm really encouraged, even though it's coming from a really negative trend, that there is conversation about this, that everybody is seeing how powerful social media is so we can have a moment ago. Wait, stop. Is this what we want? 

Sarah [00:00:35] This is Sarah. 

Beth [00:00:36] And Beth. 

Sarah [00:00:37] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:00:39] The home of grace-filled political conversations. 

Sarah [00:01:02] Hello, everyone. Welcome to Pantsuit Politics. On today's show, we're going to talk about Mitch McConnell the least favorite subject, but relevant considering the recent development with the debt ceiling. In our main segment, we're going to talk about social media and the effect it has on our kids. From Facebook's internal reports on the damage Instagram does to girls to the Tik Tok challenge wreaking havoc in schools across the country. And finally, we're going to close out today's show talking about what's on our mind outside of politics, which is obviously the Ted Lasso season two finale. 

Beth [00:01:37] Obviously, obviously, tonight is a big day because it is the very first day of our premium subscription drive, so we're going to spend the next two weeks talking about the premium content that we make and what you find on our subscription channels at Patreon and Apple podcast subscriptions. 

Sarah [00:01:55] Now we have not done one of these Beth in two years. It's been a long time. And over these past two years, we have really built out our premium content in a way that we're very proud of, and that's really what we wanted to focus on over the next two weeks. One of the biggest changes, of course, is that in January of this year, we moved the news brief to our premium channels. Look, that was a hard decision for me. It was hard, but the truth is that I spent a huge chunk of my week making the news brief, greeting everybody with that good morning and what I heard from all of you was, Hey, you should get paid for that. That's valuable content. And I appreciated the community of news brief listeners actually giving me that little supportive shove when I brought this up in January. So now it's on our premium channels every morning from Monday through Thursday. You can hear and also see me on Patreon Give my good morning along with the big stories of the day or just the stories that I want to talk about. That's often what it is. It's often what I want to talk about on our premium channels. I really think about the news brief as if I'm sitting down with a girlfriend who's told me, OK, can you just tell me what I need to know? That's how I treat it. I just tell people what they need to know. 

Beth [00:03:10] Well, that's part of what I love about the news brief that I do hear what you want to talk about because I'm getting your curation. Sometimes you'll bring up a story that I'm not seeing across the six or seven outlets that I'm checking regularly every single morning. So you not only follow the big stories getting attention everywhere, but you do bring in those kind of niche perspectives that are important, but maybe not sensational enough to get everyone's attention. And of course, you do it all with like a lot of humor and warmth. And so this is really what we want to do. Give you content that helps you stay informed, be a good citizen and not feel drained and overwhelmed. So for the next two weeks, we really want you to join us so you can sign up and get a feel for all of the news briefs, all of our premium content. There's a two week trial on Apple that you can do for free. And on Patreon for the next two weeks all of our premium content will be available the news brief and the Nightly Nuance and anything else that we post there at all levels on Patreon. We're going to be talking about a special event that will close out this drive on Friday, but you're not going to want to miss that either.  

Sarah [00:04:17] OK.That was fun. We're gonna do more of that over the next two weeks. Now let's get to the episode. 

[00:04:32] OK, Beth, Mitch blinked, Mitch of the he who never blinks, in fact, blinked when it came to the debt ceiling standoff that was not to be dramatic, barreling our country toward default. Now we have postponed said crisis until December. But for those of you who weren't following this closely and I can't blame you, Mitch was holding up the process. He said that Republicans would give not a single vote of support to raising the debt ceiling, despite the fact that the debt we're raising the ceiling for was accrued under the Trump administration. He kept saying, I'm not going to do it, I'm not going to do it. Then I started to talk a little bit about changes to the filibuster, and he said, You know what, nevermind. He found 10 votes in support of letting the Democrats vote on the debt ceiling in regular order. Now again, just postpone till December, but still important. Still important. 

Beth [00:05:27] Very important, and I was interested in the reaction from our premium content members to this whole discussion because one of the biggest things we heard from people as we've been following this more closely in those premium channels is like, I don't have the energy for this. I am not here for any more crises. Aren't there enough crises? Why are they creating one? And I think that's a really good question. And I also think it's part of the problem because the debate going on between Democrats and Republicans about the debt ceiling is a classic example of people talking about different things around one particular issue. Democrats are really focused on the debt ceiling as the debt ceiling, as this limitation on the amount of bonds and other securities that Treasury can issue to bring cash in to the federal government to keep it operating. And Republicans are focusing on the debt ceiling as a symbol of all government spending, and Republicans are frustrated that Democrats are talking about doing a lot of new government spending through reconciliation, so without Republican negotiation and support. And they're saying, Well, if you don't want us involved on lots of new government spending, then we're not going to help you continue the current levels of spending by increasing the debt ceiling. And I think the big gamble by Republicans around this topic is that voters will not understand the specifics enough and that it will work to just say Democrats tax and spend. Be afraid. 

Sarah [00:07:02] I think the description of everything you just said as a debate is very generous. 

Beth [00:07:09] I do my best. 

Sarah [00:07:10] I think that's very generous. There's a part of me that when I look at these machinations, especially on the part of Mitch McConnell, doesn't see a debate. It sees a power play. Dan Pfeiffer, in his Substack newsletter, had some really interesting analysis where he pointed out that, you know, it only takes a single senator to object to a request to waive the filibuster. OK, so let's say we want we have to waive the filibuster in order to raise the debt ceiling. So even if Mitch McConnell said, OK. I'll allow it. He can't control let's say, Ted Cruz or Rand Paul from saying, Well, I won't. You can't keep me in line. I'm going, I'm not going to. I'm going to object to the waiving of the filibuster. And so maybe the budget reconciliation process was the only way for him to really guarantee it being lifted without Republican votes. Basically, he can't control his own caucus. He can't keep everybody in line. There's reporting that he had trouble, you know, scrounging up the 10 votes to do what they did. He's really unpopular. Trump goes after him every chance he gets. That's not to say he's in trouble in our home state of Kentucky electorally, he's not. But that's a different type of power than controlling the Republican caucus. And to me, with Mitch McConnell, it's really never about policy. It might be about electoral strategy and what hits with voters as far as just labeling the Democrats tax and spend. I think that's for sure true. But I also think this is just a reflection of the power within the caucus and what's going on is that still centered on Mitch McConnell? He does not seem as iron fisted as he used to be. He does not seem as in control, particularly of other Republican senators, as he used to be, because they're not dumb. They can see the writing on the wall. They can see Trump go after him. They can see the chinks in his armor, as the case may be. And I mean, I think that's the the situation on the ground for him. And that's why the reporting was sort of unapologetically like Mitch is, you know, Machiavellian, Mitch. He's, you know, he's cynical to the max. He's not going to he's not going to blink and then he blinked because I think that his power, his political power is shifting. 

Beth [00:09:17] And that's true on the democratic side as well. You just don't have the ability and the numbers and the unanimity with the fragile numbers that exist for Democrats to just push through whatever they'd like to have. And in some ways, you could say, well, voters like that, you know, there's a lot of cliche about voters love divided government, but I don't think voters love being in a situation where the fundamentals of government can barely function. A lot of people who analyze voter behavior will tell you this is a process story and voters don't care about process. Calling the debt ceiling a process story, though, is going to get tenuous if we actually run up against the government not having enough cash to operate. And so I think it's worth following this, even though I'm with all of our members who said I don't have the energy for it because this could run up against our ability to make Social Security payments, to pay veterans benefits, to keep government workers employed. This is extremely important and way too important for it to be a reflection of where people stand on the filibuster or on reconciliation or on the build back better agenda. Too many things have gotten tied up in what is foundational to the government being able to do what it needs to do. 

Sarah [00:10:38] Well and foundational to our economy in a period of time where our economy is on very shaky ground. I mean, I think that's the other part of what happened with Mitch McConnell is there's lots of reporting that sort of the business side. The business lobby leaned on him and said, Hey, we can not deal with this instability right now. We have enough on our plates. What I'm worried about is that we didn't solve it. We just punted. And so we're going to be back here again in December with even more at stake, even closer to the midterms. I don't anticipate Mitch McConnell having tighter control of his caucus by December, probably the opposite. And so I'm worried about all the factors that came to play with this debt ceiling crisis will just be heightened by the time we get back around in December. 

Beth [00:11:24] I think that's exactly right. The situation so crystallizes the observation that we heard a couple of years ago now from Ezra Klein. That polarization is very strong, but the parties are very weak, and the weakness of the parties is playing out in ways that feel really arcane but matter tremendously to what we need people doing in Washington, D.C. And I think that again, going back to our members reaction, this idea of like, I just can't I can't think about anything else. I don't have the energy for this. I don't know what impact that has on elections because I think that the worst impact we've seen on elections of that feeling is the sense of like, vote everybody out. We need to start over. We just need somebody to come in and shake it up. The shaking has resulted in it being almost impossible to get the debt ceiling lifted. 

Sarah [00:12:18] Well, because when we say the parties are weak. What we really mean is the process puts a lot of power in party leaders hands. But the reality is that they can't control their caucuses because the polarization has weakened their power on the electoral landscape, I guess there's what I would say, like they don't have control in the way that the governing aspect of our system has placed power in their hands. Right. And I think that's the problem is that, you know, you see the speaker, you see the majority leader, you even see the minority leader hold enormous power within the legislative process. But you see that power weakening when it comes to sort of party politics within both caucuses. 

Beth [00:13:10] And that's why the blame game is so. Unproductive. I also think it's unproductive that the media analysis of this issue is stretching. Into an overall report card on the Biden administration, you know, especially over the long weekend, we have all of these think pieces about how Biden's doing and the risk to the Biden agenda and how voters are, you know, sinking into a malaise about Biden. And while those things might be true, they're always measured at a point in time. And I'm not sure again that any of this is a reflection of Biden, as much as it is a reflection of a process that is just being frayed more and more over time. 

Sarah [00:14:01] Yeah, it's definitely strained. It was strained before he got here. The strain is increasing. Just like everything else that we've talked about, I feel like a million times COVID is accelerating trends, trends that are straining our government, straining our politics, straining our relationships. And that seems like a good transition into the next segment where we're going to talk about kids in social media. Because so many of you commented on our Instagram post on Sunday about the trends in schools across the country and how the last year and a half of the pandemic has made those worse. We're going to dive into that next. 

Sarah [00:14:57] On Friday, the president of the National Education Association, Rebecca Pringle, sent a letter to the CEOs of Facebook, Twitter and TikTok, and she had some choice words. She had some choice words for these guys. Basically, she said that social media and the social media platforms policies are not only driving kids to do crazy challenges like the devious licks, which are to talk about a minute but are really putting teachers in real danger. She said, online trends and false information that have spread like wildfire throughout social media platforms from stealing school property and hitting school staff to conspiracy theories on curriculum and coronavirus protocols have helped create a culture of fear and violence with educators as targets. So we wanted to spend some time because both of us have gotten letters from our school systems about these trends. We have been hearing from all of you in our community. We posted on Instagram on Sunday and heard just story after story after story from those of you on the ground in our school systems dealing with these trends. And it's clearly a national problem. Doesn't seem like any area of the country is untouched by this and I thought her letter calling out the trends, but also the false information was really interesting and important to say, like the things that affect adults on social media, affect kids on social media, and then we all suffer the consequences. 

Beth [00:16:29] And it's almost an endless cycle because you get stressed out letters from the school saying, Here's what's going on. Please help us parents. And at least in my community, that can sometimes translate to someone as a parent posting about this on social media. And then the comment section turning into parents kind of pointing fingers at each other. And how could you let your kids see this? Or why would you let a fifth grader have a cell phone? And we beat each other up, and so we just contribute to the same hamster wheel of destruction instead of coming up with constructive ways to talk both with our kids and with each other, and with our school system on how we can partner together to have a healthier relationship between kids and social media. And Sarah, honestly, if we could just kind of put our cards on the table at the beginning, that's where I am. My kids do not have social media accounts, except for Facebook Messenger kids, which was really important to them throughout the pandemic to stay in touch with friends. And I am aware that I cannot protect them from social media. And so I am trying to think less and less about controls that I can implement and more about, how do I teach them to have a healthy relationship with social media? 

Sarah [00:17:45] Yeah, my kids also do not have social media. My 12-year-old has a cell phone, but with no cell service, I signed the wait until eight Pledge. Dang, I think when he was in fifth grade. I also read a New York Times article in time that said the kid in the class that gets the cell phone last, that parent wins and truly as an enneagram one, that's all I needed to hear. And so he got a new phone last year for his birthday, and I said, if you keep it in one piece until you start eighth grade, then we will put a SIM card in it and you can have service. But we recently had a conversation about social media, and he said, I don't want social media. It sounds like it's awful. So we're going to stay there for the time being. I think that sounds great. I'm hoping that it's a trend. I'm hoping that the generation coming up that haven't had it yet have heard us all complain about it enough that it'll be the cool thing to be like, I'm not on social media. Let's first of all, let's all just say I have a moment of silence and hope that's the trend. Because here's the thing I want to put the focus on trends because I think that's important. I think that we have a narrative in this country that parenting is all about individual choices that is incredibly damaging. You know, not to be the Hillary Clinton acolyte I am, but it takes a village. I don't mean it takes a village. I mean, it happens in a village. I always think about that moment in Supersize Me. You remember the documentary? Oh yeah. Morgan Spurlock.  

Beth [00:19:10] I was profoundly impacted by Supersize Me just to reflect my age.






Sarah [00:19:13]  It's so good where he eats McDonald's, I think, for 30 days. So what does this have to do with kids in social media? Well, there's this moment where they're talking about, in particular, the effect of this diet on kids and how they began advertising towards kids in the 80s. And I remember this expert telling him, Look, you could sit down with your kids at every meal and have an intense conversation about how to have a healthy relationship with food and how to to think about fast food. And you would still be like, I don't remember the number. It was massive, like thirteen thousand messages behind the advertising they're going to see. And I thought, man, that's it, right, that's it, like as parents, we want to think that we're the number one influence in our kids lives and that the decisions we make as a parents, individual parents will be the most important factor in their behavior. And that is not true. It's just not true. They are influenced by marketing and advertising. They are massively influenced by their peers, especially in adolescence. They are influenced by their community, by their religious affiliation or organizations they're a part of, sports teams. And of course, they're influenced by social media that's coming into their lives. And so, I mean, I think that to me is like the very first thing that we should emphasize is like, this is not about making anybody as an individual feel like this is on them to like, figure out the right controls or, you know, make the right call or judge other people's calls. Not because I don't think we should, I don't know, have a cultural conversation about what is actually best for kids, so everybody can sort of get on board and create that social pressure because I think that's where it happens, right? It happens at the community level. Real change that's going to help our kids is going to happen at the community and societal level as hard working as me and my circle limits are. There's just a limit of how much I can do as an individual parent. And so I'm really encouraged, even though it's coming from a really negative trend, that there is conversation about this, that everybody is seeing how powerful social media is so we can have a moment to go. Wait, stop. Is this what we want? Is this OK with us? Because so much of parenting happens like sort of among the peer group and it's the social? Well, my friends have it, and I would like to see that pressure reverse itself where the kid who has it feels like the odd man out. 

Beth [00:21:52] And that's going to take a lot of conversation. And that conversation has to happen without shaming because again, you know, I don't have a philosophy of like, let me protect my kid from everything in the world. I think it is really important that both of my daughters know that if they are hearing about something and they're curious about it, I'm not going to lie to them and I'm not going to keep them from it. I'm going to walk with them through it so that they have some guidance and some support from me. And it's really hard to talk with other parents about what you think is appropriate when the conversation always becomes about control. Well, these are the rules in our house versus these are the rules in your house. And I think the other risk in this discussion, and we're talking about it in these peer groups, in your communities is so helpful, as Sarah saying, is that otherwise it can turn into "kids these days". And I don't have a single ounce of "kids these days" in hearing about these TikTok challenges because I don't think that this is the result of a generation of children going, Hmm, how can we really make life difficult for our teachers? I see no evidence of that anywhere in this generation. I think that a lot of things are happening here. It's just like with adults, when you do stupid things on or because of social media, a need is being met. So the question is, what are those needs? Why is this meeting those needs? What are ways that those needs can be met that are healthier? 

Sarah [00:23:22] Yeah. For those of you who are not in a new school system in your everyday lives, these TikTok challenges, the most famous of which is called devious licks, which you can't find if you go to Tik Tok right now. Tik Tok, if you search that you have to like, misspell it and then sometimes it'll come up because kids are clever, but it's like pulling off the soap dispenser, pulling off the towel dispenser, putting them in the toilet, basically wreaking havoc, right? Especially in restrooms, which our community engagement manager Maggie pointed out is already fraught. Going to the bathroom in elementary school or middle school and high school is already fraught, and now we have these challenges taking place in them, right? So that's what these challenges are, and I think you're 100 percent right. I'm not interested in blaming individual parents, and I'm sure as hell not interested in blaming teenagers because here's another soapbox coming at you quick from this enneagram one. Teenagers are not grown. Let me say that again. Teenagers are not grown. This wears me out. They're not adults. I don't care what they look like. I don't care how tall they are. I don't care how much they look like a linebacker. Their brains that process actions and consequences are not fully developed until around twenty seven years old. And so this idea of like, they're bad, they need to hold full responsibility for this, like not only as a mother of boys as that set me off, but I think there's like systemic racism at play when we act like teenagers are grown, that comes down particularly hard on teenage boys of color. And I'm just I'm not here for it. I'm not going to stand for it. I'm sorry, I cannot with that. It's not the kid's fault, y'all. 

Beth [00:24:52] I think this is what we try to do in so many situations. That is a hard muscle to develop. Of course, an individual kid who pulls a soap dispenser off a wall at school needs to have some accountability around that action, and the parents of that child need to have some accountability in that process. And we have to see the larger environment that everybody's operating in. And a big piece of that larger environment, as we just try to keep zooming out and understanding all the dimensions is this is happening in schools that are stretched beyond their capacities right now. We have a hard time getting enough substitute teachers. We have a hard time getting full time teachers. We have a hard time getting custodians who bear the brunt of so much of the shenanigans that are influenced by social media. We have a hard time with busing. My kids right now are in a situation where some days they sit in the gym for 30, 45 minutes, an hour after school because busses are doing double and triple runs. All of that stress is layered on top of two years where schooling has been dictated by What can we do because of COVID 19? And schools have never been properly prioritized by governments to be funded and supported to manage COVID 19. This year, the pressure is on to give kids a quote normal school experience. So have them in the classroom. Do every extracurricular activity make up for all this lost time in terms of prom and homecoming and fun events. And do it all while managing, testing, contact tracing, possible vaccinations, parents screaming about all of the above at school board meetings and sometimes outside your school doors. This is a mess. And so the solution cannot be well, how could you give your fifth grader a phone? That's not going to do it. 

Sarah [00:26:47] Yeah, it's a chaotic environment. So should we be surprised by chaotic trends taking off? Of course not. When I say I'm not interested in pointing to individual parents or pointing to individual kids. What I mean is I'm not interested in blame. Accountability, sure, but that's that's not what people do. It's blame. And then I'm done. Look, we blame them. We found the culprit. We can all move on. OK, well, if I'm not interested in making individual parents or individual kids the culprit, then who am I interested in making the culprit? Because I believe there is one can. Good news, good news. And that is the social media companies themselves. So this is taking place on top of truly blockbuster revelations from a trove of leaked documents from Facebook in particular. We now know the whistleblower slash leaker that gave all these documents to The Wall Street Journal and it. What these documents show is that the company has had internal research that proves the negative effects of their products on teenagers, specifically, in this case, Instagram on teenage girls for years. For the past three years, Facebook has been conducting internal studies on how Instagram in particular is incredibly harmful for its youngest users. This is a quote, "we make body image issues worse for one in three teen girls", this was from a 2019 slide deck. Teens blame Instagram for increases in the rates of anxiety and depression. This reaction was unprompted and consistent across all groups. Again, this is Facebook's own research. Beth, it reminds me so much of how those tobacco CEOs sat in front of Congress and had to admit that they had the research that smoking gave you cancer for years and years and years and years. 

Beth [00:28:41] You and Senator Blumenthal, right? That's where the Senate is going with all of this too, making that direct comparison between Big Tech and Big Tobacco. And I think a part of that comparison that really sits with me is it kind of orients me in time because we are right now in that awakening phase when people started to go, Oh, cigarettes make you sick, you know, and that was this whole period before that when people just didn't know the harmful effects of smoking. And so we are before every cigarette package coming with a surgeon general's warning on it and after let's all smoke in the airport because it's cool. You know, we're like in that in-between space of, oh, there is a damaging aspect of this, and we're just coming to understand that damage and we don't yet have all of the solutions. And so I think a Senate committee spending time to analyze this makes a lot of sense. The danger? That is a little different to me than what was going on with Big Tobacco. Is this all happens against a backdrop of a technology that changes faster than our Senate can get its arms around. And you have some of these big tech companies and Facebook, in particular, saying, yes, regulate us, please. We would love to be regulated. There are certain podcasts I listen to that always open with an ad about how Facebook believes in reasonable regulation. And I think that there's something to be concerned about when you have industry lobbying for itself to be regulated in particular ways. 

Sarah [00:30:22] I agree with you. The pace of change with regards to technology is hard. It's hard. There's also a part of me that thinks we don't have to regulate the specifics of the algorithm. We can legislatively define social media. I think we can. I think we could define the platform and the type of interaction loosely enough that we could start getting at some simple things like you may not have young users, you may not advertise to young users in much the same way we started chipping away at Big Tobacco's power, which at the time seemed insurmountable. Right? Everybody smoked babies smoked, puppies smoked, everybody smoked. It felt like something we could never change, and we just started to try. Because it was unavoidable and imperative, because the other things that Big Tobacco shares with Big Tech is that our kids are their growth strategy. They got to get them hooked. They have to get them looked just like cigarettes, and they have to do it because their platforms profits depend on it. That's why Facebook is so aggressive. They know young people don't give a s--t about Facebook. That's why they were willing to double down on Instagram, no matter the harm, because that's the product where the young people were. And to me, like as a parent, that's just what I want to stay focused on. Like there is a way to take on this monster, but it's not if we're fighting each other, and it's not if we're shaming other parents, and it's not if we're screaming at school administrators or even our own kids. It's only if we come together and take on the real problem here, which I think is Big Tech, and I'm not saying it's an easy nut to crack, it isn't. But it sure is going to be easier than trying to get at it through our own individual choices. 

Beth [00:32:32] There are aspects of what Big Tech creates that I really value. And I never want to lose sight of that, and I never want to lose sight of the fact that what shows up on social media is a reflection of us and who we are. It is a distorted reflection, for sure, because of what gets shown and amplified because of the presence of bots, because of the intentional manipulation of what is curated through those feeds. And there is an element of who we are reflected in all of it. I struggle with the balance of responsibility on the part of the user, the responsibility on the part of the tech company, the incentives around all of this. We have incentives built in for maximizing profit for shareholders. There is a whole scheme of privacy laws at issue and with an organization like Facebook, and this is true of all the big tech companies. They're not operating in a single jurisdiction. Just operating in the United States as a business offers you a patchwork of laws to navigate because every state has its own schemes in addition to the federal scheme. But these companies are operating all over the world. And so the scale here is almost inconceivable for my brain and that makes it tough. When I think about what we can do to start chipping away because I agree with you, that does not make me want to say, Well, we give up. It's too hard of a problem. We're just all going to sit here as we are today and not make progress. I really like that the Biden administration is working on a draft bill of rights around artificial intelligence because I think if we keep centering the user, that's where we're going to get to a more coherent, articulated set of societal norms. The government can do a lot to regulate tech companies that I think would be helpful, and it is true that if the government is the only tool here, it will constantly be chasing new trails and constantly be a little bit behind the technology and constantly be resource-strapped. If we could articulate a set of expectations that educates everybody because that's part of what was so effective about cigarettes, you can still go buy cigarettes. But we all know now what the harms are, and we are reminded of those harms repeatedly, and we have social norms around where you can and cannot expose other people to the effect of smoke. And so I think if we could get something in that vein and this bill of rights around artificial intelligence feels to me like a meaningful step toward that where you articulate, Hey, when I post something online, what should I expect happens with that data? When I am out moving in the world and cameras are capturing my face what are my rights about who gets to know where I've been and for what purpose? I think that focus on the user is a really valuable road map for how to continue regulating in this space. 

Sarah [00:35:33] Well, and we can follow again the pattern of big tobacco, the pattern of sort of the the labor movement and the beginning of the industrial age, which is we start with kids. We say, OK, well, we're going to start chipping away at the harm this does to kids. We can at least all agree on that. But last week, look, Facebook went down for hours and it had a massive, massive effect. In combination with some reporting, I'd recently read about the SEC complaint filed by the Facebook whistleblower and what a weird dance it was, right that you're saying in pursuit of profits for the stockholders you deceived the stockholders about how much you emphasized stockholder profits at the detriment of kids, right? Like it's like this weird, weird dance they're doing in this complaint, and I thought, well, that's because that's a crappy tool, right? Like. Just saying you lied to the stockholders is basically the only thing you can do about to Facebook right now because it's this big corporation, well, that's problematic, right? You know? Look, Mark Zuckerberg has argued that Facebook is a utility. So after seeing the outage and the effect and then thinking about, well, if we're only going to have to say you're harming the stockholders or the only way right now is to go after them is to say you're holding the stockholders. To me, it's like all of this is leading to this place where I think we do have to start thinking about these as public utilities and that that's where the government will finally have enough tools at its disposal, enough flexibility at its disposal to really start getting at this problem. 

Beth [00:37:10] I'm not there yet on the public utility point, but I am walking through this complaint on tonight's Nightly Nuance for our members, and what really struck me in reading it is that almost every major decision at Facebook is in the hands of Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg. And that is too much for any two people. They could be the best, wisest two people who've ever lived. And that's too much for two people. And that's why I really want us to focus on articulating some norms and I think to get back to the kids conversation. You're right. The the the way that we can most immediately and impactfully articulate those norms are in our communities with other people, and I don't think this is just an issue for parents. The most influential people to my fifth grader are high school and middle school kids, right? And college students. The most influential people in this conversation, the people who understand what's happening, are young people. And so I think the more we as parents can again, like loosen up on some of that feeling of I just got to get in and shut this down and more like ask questions from a position of curiosity and say what would be a constructive, fun Tik Tok challenge for school. I can't design that, but somebody can. Whatever this need is that's being met. This need can be met in ways that are that are good and healthy. We can't regulate Facebook from our houses, but we can get our community talking about this in a more productive way, and we can put pressure on our lawmakers to come up with some solutions for this problem and to articulate some standards that help us get to that surgeon general's warning label about all of this. 

Sarah [00:39:03] Yeah, because I hope the other thing this. Increases in our kids and ourselves in our community is not just curiosity, but empathy. In one of the comments on our Instagram post a listener told a story about her son's teacher who had her new projector stolen out of her room the day after she lost a family member to COVID and she started crying and the listener son said It's funny when it's on Tik Tok, but it's not funny when your teacher is crying. And oh god, that just broke my heart and I thought, Man. As with everything, the harder the issue, the harder it is to talk to our kids about, the harder it is to teach our kids through, the harder it is to shepherd them through. But we got to try because the teachers and the custodians and the bus drivers and the principals and the school board members and the administrators, they need us and they need our kids and, you know, we all have to find a way. In this really chaotic environment. To do what I said at the beginning to parent as a community, to do this together, to realize we're in it together, not just for our kids’ sakes, but for all of our sakes. And you know, I hope that's. What we can find a way to do in the meantime, while we're trying to crack this nut, how to deal with social media companies through regulation. 

Beth [00:40:40] And we need it, too, because I struggle with these issues myself. I'm trying to walk my kids through something that I'm always trying to learn too. Something really crystallized for me the other day how different life is for my daughters than it was for me at their age. I was asking them. We're just outside with my husband and two kids, and I ask everybody if you could take a trip right now, we could just go anywhere in the world right now. Where would you want to go? And both Jane and Ellen, my two daughters, said, I don't really want to go anywhere. Maybe we could go somewhere, but only if it had a creek like the one in our backyard and a playset like our playset, and they end up describing somewhere that could only be here. And that is not even close to how I would have answered that question as a kid, but I started thinking, of course, the world feels and looks different to them after two years of COVID 19. And of course, the world looks and feels different when a lot of their lives are lived digitally. They don't have as much curiosity because they can as they like to say, search up whatever they're interested in and immediately have some information about it. And I've thought a lot about that moment because it's tempting as a parent to be like self-congratulatory how they feel so safe and happy in my home. They're so content like what an A-plus job I'm doing or to get to catastrophizing about it. Oh my gosh, they're so scarred. They're afraid of the world, whatever. And I think the truth is just that the landscape is different right now, and they're juggling a lot and a lot of things are working on them. Just like you said, I have no control over whatsoever. And we all just have to figure that out together. 

Sarah [00:42:30] Beth, what's on your mind outside of politics?

Beth [00:42:31]  Obviously, Ted Lasso, what else is there? Is there anything about Ted Lasso? It is my beautiful escape, and I'm so bummed that the season finale is here and over because I have enjoyed it very, very much, and I hope there will be a season three. I know that's an unpopular hope that a lot of people are like they should call it quits. But in this particular moment when I've just watched the season finale, I'm left wanting more. 

Sarah [00:42:57] First up, this is not a spoiler-free zone. People, we're going to be talking about things that happen if you're behind, that's on you. So I just don't put that out there right now. 

Beth [00:43:05] You can always come back later and jump in. 

Sarah [00:43:08] Yeah, I have some controversial hot takes about Ted Lasso. I think this is mainly a controversial hot take about all television. I think in the era of streaming, when we all don't sit down for appointment television on network or even cable anymore. The idea of like multiple seasons needs to be examined. I just I'm not sure it fits with the way we watch TV anymore. You know, The Office in Britain was like two seasons. They're like, they're kind of known for that like, so that's their thing. They get in, they get out. And I'm kind of wondering if we should adopt that across the board, not because I didn't enjoy this season, not because I don't think it they the characters are lovely and I'm rooting for them and I think their writing is brilliant. But it's because for me, especially by the end of season two, there's some things I see based on these characters. That I think are abundantly clear should happen. But they won't happen because they want to keep doing more seasons first and foremost. I'll just play this out here at the start. Ted Lasso needs to go back to America and his son. I felt like that's where they were heading when he had that first panic attack after getting the call from us about from his son's school, I thought, OK, good because to me, honestly, that's really never made sense. And I thought that scene at the end throws that back at him. And you watch Jason Sudeikis' face like, first of all, the face acting from that man, this season chef's kiss. So good he was killing it. But I thought, Yeah, that's like, I think Nate's been a jerk this whole season. But what he said was true, like, I thought, What are you doing here, friend? Like, especially now that everything we know about his father and how like, what a loving, supportive person he is. And I'm like, Well, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Beth [00:44:46]  I agree with you about that. You know, we suspend reality like by consent with every TV show, and in some degree that has been a major suspension of reality that he is across the world from his son. It's a really interesting question about what kind of parent you can be from a distance and how a loving father can make that call. Because look, a lot of people have to live across the world from their children, and not because they're coaching a professional soccer team because they're defending America. Or, you know, there are lots of reasons that a really loving parent can be separated from a child this way. And so what level of choice is involved there and how your personal history informs that those are interesting and complicated questions that I don't think they deal with enough. I think he either needs to decide he's going back, or they could put more emphasis on that aspect of the storyline. 

Sarah [00:45:40] I agree. Like, you know. People do it for all kinds of reasons, but like as far as I can tell, Ted Lasso doesn't have to. You mean like he's got some other choices available to him. OK, here's my other hot take. Coming at the conclusion of season two that I think they're going to continue to stretch out because they're doing additional seasons, which I'm not necessarily mad at, like at the end I thought like, I don't love all the plot choices, but I still laugh out loud every episode. I still go, Oh, I love these people so much every episode, but I think Roy should dump Keeley. How about them apples? How about them apples? I'm done. How many times do we have to review? Like, Roy's really fallen short? By then I was like, I don't think it's Roy. I'm just saying it. I'm just, I said it. There, I said it. 

Beth [00:46:21] I see this differently. I really like that relationship. I really like that. The two of them are one good example of how difficult it is for two high profile people to be together. I think there, I think that photoshoot was like the best probing of what is this like when you are both famous and then he doesn't get in the magazine pictures and it hurts. I loved it when he said it hurt his feelings. I mean, he's so happy. And I also like how they're exploring. On the flip side, something that every relationship deals with, which is just the question of how much should we be together? And that question is so relevant right now, when many of us have worked at home with our spouses for a long time, we're just in each other's spaces and faces all the time. That episode, where he was constantly interrupting her and she was talking to everybody at work about how she needed some space, we instantly recognized that in our own marriage to the point where now every time we interrupt each other at home, we go, Oi. And it's just and it's become like this delightful shorthand for, Yeah, this is a hard thing that we're working out all the time. And so I don't see a problem with the two of them as much as I see kind of a healthy negotiation of something that is very real and long-lasting in even the best relationships.

Sarah [00:47:43] No, by the end, when he was talking to the teacher and I looked back like every little spot of conflict that happened between the two of them, I thought, I think she just needs to go back to Jamie Tartt 2.0, which I really enjoyed that character development. I would like more of Jamie Tartt in season three for what it's worth. But I thought, you know what she articulates to Nate. Well, he doesn't like to do this with me. Jamie would. How she articulated like, I need to be left alone. Jamie Tartt wouldn't be all up in her face all the time because he's too narcissistic for that. Just like there is all these little parts where I thought, Man, I don't know. I think you just need a little bit more mature Jamie and Roy has, like, outpaced what you actually want from a relationship. I like just chemistry with the teacher. I'm just saying.

Beth [00:48:22] Well, I like that storyline too because you do have chemistry with people outside your relationship sometimes. And I think it's really interesting to show that and explore it. And you don't marry the person who's your best bud who wants to go shopping with you all the time or, you know, have a serious, intimate relationship with that person. Like, I think all those little moments of tension are kind of great. I get where you're coming from, but I see that differently. I really like where that went. 

Sarah [00:48:47] I was with you wholeheartedly up until he said, Are we breaking up? And she said, No, it's fine. Just go away for six weeks. And I thought, No, that's not normal inside a relationship. Like that's to say the person say, wait do you want to be with me? And you say, yeah, but just not for the next six weeks. Like, I'm sorry, that's what I was like. You'll ask me, Kelly, I love you so much. I'm so happy for you and your new PR company. I thought all her moments with Rebecca were brilliant. I love any and all additional entertainment content around female mentor and mentees. See hacks. But by that point I was like, Sister, you're not seeing what's happening right here. He needs more of you. And if you can't give it, that's cool. Let him go. Be with the teacher and you go back to Jamie. 

Beth [00:49:27] I think he needs more time with himself, too, though he's been in the spotlight all this time when she said, you're going to have a well-deserved rest. He talked about eating all that food and not being trying, not rehabbing his knee. Like I just was, I was here for all of that. What you pointed out, there is my absolute favorite thing about the show. I just love the friendships, the male, female friendships, the female, female friendships, like all of the friendships in the show, I think are so much more relatable than past shows that have tried to show us a lot of those kinds of friendships. My favorite moment of the whole season was the funeral episode when Keeley comes up to Rebecca, and they're they're looking at Rebecca's ex-husband and his newborn. And Keeley says, I hate that baby. I just thought I love this so much. I watched that episode 15 times just for that moment. 

Sarah [00:50:16] OK, well, we can't move on before talking about the final big development, which was Nate, the former towel boy elevated to coach position by Ted Lasso, who has now betrayed Ted Lasso and the rest of the team slash company slash. I don't know whatever you call a soccer league by going and coaching for Rebecca's wretched ex-husband and his new silver fox hair. 

Beth [00:50:41] The turn of Nate's cruelty was too quick for me. I really struggled with who Nate was in the first season and who he became in the second season, and I know that they built it for the entire season. But honestly, I struggled more with the Nate, the way that Nate treated the new Towel Boy and his decision to go coach for the other team. That turn of cruelty was so hard and so fast that it is my main complaint about this season. 

Sarah [00:51:09] I like that they sort of bumped up against the limits of Ted Lasso's abilities, both with the team, with Ted himself and with Nate. You know, I loved when Rebecca came in and confessed and he was like, I forgive you. And when he had those great breakthroughs with Dr. Sharon. But I think that it was fair to say, Listen, that only takes you so far. Some people have their own stuff. Some people don't like your approach. Some people feel betrayed by the way you operate. And I don't know. I kind of liked it. I kind of thought like, Well, what if this only takes you so far because it's true? Right? Nobody. As much as we all love Ted Lasso. He is, you know, first of all, he's a fictional character. And second of all, like nobody is is capable of navigating through every single interpersonal conflict. 

Beth [00:52:01] One hundred percent agree with that. And I actually do like that. Nate is kind of a villain now. I think the show needed that. Yeah, it just happened so fast. That towel boy moment just hurt me and felt if that would come later in the season I think it would have felt right. But when it first happened, I thought, What is, what is going on here? This was this is really jarring. Now I feel like the storyline that we have to talk about is Rebecca and Sam. What did you think of Rebecca and Sam? First of all, the cheers reference just. 

Sarah [00:52:34] But well, and you know that Jason Sudeikis is George Wentz's nephew. Did you know that?

Beth [00:52:38] That makes it even better.

Sarah [00:52:39] Yeah, I liked it. Again, I think the romantic relationships on the show are sort of the least interesting thing. They can get together. They can not to get together. I'm not super invested in it either way, honestly. 

Beth [00:52:50] I love the way that resolved. I love the growth of Sam. 

Sarah [00:52:53] Yes, I do. I love it. 

Beth [00:52:55] I love it showing the cracks in Rebecca, all the places where she made horrible decisions around this. So many horrible decisions by Rebecca around this right? And relatable, horrible decisions. You know who hasn't who hasn't made a really bad screw up in that area of life or failed to understand kind of all the power dynamics at play or failed to understand how hurtful they are noncommittal could be, or got so absorbed in their own stuff that they lost track of what's going on with the other person. I mean, I think that she never should have gone there with Sam. I think her first instinct was upon learning who this was. She needed to be out of it. But once she decided to be in it, the way she treated him was terrible and you still loved her and him. But I am. I love his character and I'm so happy we got more of Sam this season, and I'm really excited about him opening this restaurant and where that character could go. That's the thing. That's why I want another season. There's so many of these characters. Ted Lasso, to me, is kind of the least interesting of the cast. I don't want a day of life without Roy Kent in it, but more than that, like, I could go for more Jamie Tartt. I could go for more. Colin, I loved Colin running around repeating that he's like a strong and capable man from Dr. Sharon. I could see Dr. Sharon a lot more, right? Like there. They just built such a good ensemble this season. 

Sarah [00:54:14] I read a really good editorial from Victoria Sepulveda called Ted Lasso on Apple TV Plus actually makes iPhones look terrifying, and I can't stop thinking about it. And she points out, like what heavy rolls iPhones play in the show. Like people, I was on their phones. They're texting. You had the banter thing with Sam and Rebecca. You have people on their laptops every time you have people like and Twitter, Nate and Twitter, which I think was like, That's what made me think about it, because I do think that moment was really good and like, really instructive. And also now I can't unsee it. You know, for a long time, I've I've thought it's so foolish how sort of TV avoids how prominent role phones are in our lives. But I think there's something about this editorial that struck me too that like, well, it's kind of terrifying seeing it play out, like seeing how prominent they are, she says. Like she never watched Black Mirror because it scared her. But this feels like Black Mirror to her. Like, it's this, this this, you know, technology-scape, that's like really upsetting, especially when you see it in your fictional characters and you're like, Man, are we are we on our phones this much? This is a guess, an appropriate tie in to our social media conversation in the previous segment.

Beth [00:55:25] You know, it's a great tie in, and I liked the way they showed kind of the benefits and the risks of that, the whole storyline around Sam and the oil company and the destruction of his home country as he's playing soccer in the UK. Like I thought, the power of social media being helpful and empowering around that was awesome. And then it shows the downsides. Like, I like that it reckons with where we are today because, to your point, that is a distortion that we accept with a lot of TV right now, people just walking around looking at each other and being fully engaged to the present moment. It's just not where we are most of the time. 

Sarah [00:56:07] Well, thank you for joining us for this incredibly extensive conversation surrounding Ted Lasso season two finale. There's just a lot of cover. There's a lot to cover. 

Beth [00:56:14] We haven't even scratched the surface of it. 

Sarah [00:56:16] That's right. So thanks for listening to all of our conversations today and every day. Again, don't forget that our premium content is available to all levels on Patron for the next two weeks, and you can always take advantage of the free two-week trial on Apple podcast subscriptions. You can check the links in our show notes to access either of those platforms and enjoy all the fun that we're having. I'm sure we'll have a really robust conversation about Ted Lasso on Patreon, for sure. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. We will be back in your ears on Friday, and until then, keep it nuanced y’all. 

Beth [00:56:56] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Alise Napp is our managing director.

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