Trump's Health and Practicing Disagreement on Abortion and Guns
Topics Discussed:
President Trump's Health
Federal Leadership Around Covid-19
Breonna Taylor's Case
Moment of Positivity with Celeste Williams
Disagreeing on Abortion
Disagreeing on Guns
Outside of Politics
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Episode Resources
If you want to hear more Pantsuit Politics conversations about abortion, check out this beautiful visual episode guide on our abortion-centric episodes from Ruth Brown.
Question Time! COVID Testing (Emily Oster Substack)
Testing Was Not Enough to Protect the White House (The New York Times)
A door busted open. A chaotic scene. A life taken. What the Breonna Taylor grand jury audio reveals (CNN)
'That should never have happened': Inside Trump's Walter Reed parade (CNN)
Garlic Bread Plaits (Nadia Lim)
Transcript
Beth: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. Thank you for being here with us at Pantsuit Politics in the midst of a 2020 that continues to get stranger. We are going to try to make sense of what is happening today, as well as share two conversations with you that we're really excited about. We talked to two friends of ours, Sarah, with her friend, Elizabeth, about their ongoing discussion on abortion.
They really strongly disagree with each other. They talk about it all the time. They're going to share some reflections on that with you today, listener of Pantsuit Politics and someone who's become a friend of mine through a conversation where we disagree about gun rights, Eric is going to join me to talk about our discussions.
So we know many of you are having hard talks right now. And we hope that this is a way to give you a window into what we gain from practicing conversations with people where we really are on very different ends of the earth on certain topics, and still have a lot of mutual respect and admiration.
Before we dive in, we want to welcome Danny to our executive producer team, Danny, thank you so much for joining this team of people who help us so significantly make Pantsuit Politics. Danny wanted to recommend a podcast to everybody about COVID-19 it's This Week in Virology and I've taken a look at it.
I find it very helpful and it's a good way to continue to get good credible information about where we are in the scope of dealing with this virus that isn't going anywhere anytime soon as the news this week makes clear.
Sarah: [00:01:24] This week in virology, the news is that the president of the United States and basically his entire inner circle has contracted COVID-19 just, as we were beginning to record on Monday, October 5th, we received the news that Kayleigh McEnany the press secretary for the White House has received a positive test result and will be quarantining. This is after Sunday when she walked outside, took her mask off and spoke to a gaggle of White House press reporters about the president's diagnosis.
I don't know why they continue to do these press gaggles because they have not provided one teeny tiny moment of clarity since we got news of his positive test results late in the evening on Thursday. They had clearly an escalation in the events on Friday, resulting in the president being taken to Walter Reed hospital for treatment.
And then press conferences with his doctors that left everyone way more confused and with way more questions than they started, then off the record conversations with Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, that then seem to directly contradict the president's doctors. We've gotten some Twitter videos with the president saying he's okay.
Pictures of him signing blank sheets of papers, I think. And. It's supposed to imply that he's up and working and doing fine. And then of course just continued growing lists of presidential insiders or, you know, people high up in the government who were at Amy Coney Barrett's nomination ceremony. It seems now was a super-spreader event.
Beth: [00:03:00] As we're recording, it's about noon Eastern time on Monday, the president is still at Walter Reed hospital. There are some discussion of him potentially going back to the White House later today or tomorrow. It's important to give you that timestamp, because I do think we're going to continue to have a week of things shifting dramatically. And it is difficult to ground ourselves in what his real health situation is, because we don't have a lot of information about the numbers, you know, the actual data that would give you at least a snapshot in time of how someone's doing just haven't been made available by this administration.
Sarah: [00:03:36] I just think the contrast is so clear, you know, when everything started to go down on Friday, And we know now that the scene inside the White House was escalating, his oxygen levels were dropping. His fever was increasing. He was increasingly panicked. So it was his family didn't want to go to the hospital, but the doctors were basically like, you can go now when you can walk out to the helicopter or it might get to a situation where we have to take you out on a stretcher.
And it was, you know, as an American citizen, it was nerve wracking to watch CNN, which I almost never do to see how he was going to exit the White House, because we are all at risk if the president is incapacitated at some time, if there's some confusion inside the line of succession or who's holding power, who's making decisions, which I think there has been all weekend and it was nerve wracking.
Like why? Like how's he going to come out? So he walked out, he waived, but we know now that his oxygen levels were dropping, we also can tell from the you know, the treatments that they've released since then, that they were giving him treatments for pretty severe cases of COVID. Okay. So during all that, everybody was like, we need transparency, we need transparency, we need transparency.
We need to know what's going on. And that is true. And their response to that, which is to send out doctors to paint rosy pictures and to post silly photo ops. And then yesterday, Sunday, sending the president in a hermetically sealed vehicle with secret service agents as a COVID-19 positive case to wave at the people around his hospital.
It's just like you guys don't, you don't know how to be transparent. You don't know how to make responsible decisions. Like, all you understand is optics and you can't even get that, right? Like, can you not see that this is not the transparency people need it. They don't need to, you know, seeing him was nice.
And I do think that was important, but like just the hamfisted way that they handle the call for transparency and the need for responsible management of a crisis like this, when so much is on the line for him and for everybody, who's come in contact with him and for the nation as a whole is so reflective of their failure of leadership.
Beth: [00:05:45] I think a lot about the torts principle that you have no duty to act, but if you act, you have to act reasonably, and that's really how I felt watching Dr. Conley, speaking about the president. I understand that it's difficult for a physician who is in the United States, Navy, who his commander in chief has probably instructed him to not provide a whole lot of medical details to come out and give a briefing like that.
I think it would have been better to have more silence than to have the fiction and the confusion that was created over the weekend. It's not good to have silence that would have been destabilizing in its own way, but to have conflicting accounts of his health. Is really tricky. And I understand that there are some issues where opinion is involved.
I mean, I experienced during my mom's hospital utilization, she was released from the hospital this week weekend. And I should say that as though it's like great knees and it is in some ways, and she's so much happier sleeping in her bed and being able to take a shower and being able to go to the bathroom when she wants to go to the bathroom.
So she's, I mean, she's much happier at home. It feels to me like my mom is floating in outer space right now because she still has to isolate. She still has symptoms. So she's still contagious and not having eyes on her all the time is making me a nervous wreck. But anyway, I understand during her hospitalization, the picture of how things were going, did feel like it changed with shifts to me.
What nurses and doctors are there and what information are we getting from them? So I get that. There's an element of opinion, but if you're not going to come out and give basic vital signs, I just don't know that it's worth coming out. Because when we are living in this moment where everything feels so precarious, And we can't even trust information about the president's physical condition.
It just made me think about like, what would happen if the electrical grid in a major city went down right now, how many Americans would believe if it were a. As the president likes to say, Democrat run city, how many Americans would believe that our own government might have caused that? And what if this administration told us that it was China, but then there were leaked intelligence reports that it was actually Iran or, you know, they're just.
I am worried that we're in a moment that is primed for a foreign actor to take hostile action against us and rest assured that they won't get tagged with responsibility because the American people won't believe what's told to them about those types of events,
Sarah: [00:08:32] you know, to be fair, which I try to be, this is not the first president or administration to try to hide the reality.
Of a president's health diagnosis or medical treatment from the American people. We got a long history with this FDR and JFK and Eisenhower Wilson during the last pandemic. Okay. So this is, this is not abnormal for a president's health to be in danger. And for the people surrounding him. To feel like this is information that would destabilize the government and convince themselves that the right thing to do is to keep it a secret.
But to be honest, they couldn't even do that. It's not like they're, they're not doing that. I mean, they're sending out a doctor to say everything's fine. And simultaneously the chief of staff is coming out and saying, it's really bad. Two reporters while not communicating with his own staff at all. You know, the, the first lady's chief of staff send an email, the vice president's chief of staff send an email to the staff saying work from home, follow CDC guidelines, Mark Meadows didn't even communicate to the White House staff, you know, and I think the idea that they're like.
Too busy. They're not worried about the destabilization of the American government. They're worried about their own butts. That is indicative of the fact that they don't understand testing. And therefore told everyone at the super spreader event, nomination ceremony, that once you have a negative test, you can take your mask off.
They didn't communicate with people when they understood that hope index was for presenting symptoms and it tested positive. They didn't even prevent the president from traveling when he was exhibiting symptoms, he was exhibiting symptoms and still going out and exposing hundreds of people. I think the, the sort of like shocking things to me were a couple of points on that timeline.
One that he, I think it was indicative of there, like totally not understanding the science and there. Disrespect and lack of concern or value for anyone. Right? I felt like I've always thought that the president's inner circle had a lack of respect for his own supporters, but the lack of respect, they even are concerned that even showed for fundraisers, like powerful people who are giving them lots of money.
Caught me off guard. Honestly, it really did, like, as someone who lived in Washington, D C like these are the power players here, those are the VIP, they're the ones that are usually treated with kid gloves. And I don't know if it was just like, Oh, well we need the money and we have to still do the fundraiser.
Or what, but that caught me off guard. The like, Oh yeah. We'll definitely expose all our VIP people who we might not need more money from. Honestly, the chief of staff coming out and directly contradicting the doctors. I was like, I don't understand the motivation for that. That is like, Totally cross purposes and confusing to me, but then, you know, individual moments like that.
I think that, and then I think to the bigger picture of this is a man who's been lying to us from the beginning, from the birther, from the crowd size. Like he knows no other way than to lie, to cover his own instincts, which are often terrible. And so there's like, I guess it's, it's not necessarily that the overall approach shocked me.
It's just that even with the stakes, this high. There is no tempering of that instinct to shred it all to protect themselves.
Beth: [00:12:05] Yeah. That's where I'm coming from with my power grid hypothetical, because it's not about this one specific incident. I think this one specific incident has reminded me or revealed to me how far along the destabilization path we are.
It is a continuance of a theme. And look, I have no idea. The president may be doing great. I have no idea how he's doing, and that's not a good thing that we don't really know. I don't want to assume, but he is in much worse shape than they are. Told us. I hope he's doing fine. I hope he recovers quickly. I hope he does not suffer in the course of this.
I also am mindful of the fact that everything we've read about Trump's upbringing, there is significant medical trauma throughout his life story. His mother was. So frequently, his father lied so often about his mother's condition and the severity of it. It's widely reported that he's a germaphobe. The more I understand about his biography, the more I understand why.
And so I have a lot of compassion. For what he's going through. I have a lot of compassion for the pressure that must exist when you've convinced a lot of your supporters that this thing, no big deal. And they immediately start tweeting about how you're just going to crush this virus. It is a hard thing to be sick.
It is a very hard thing to be with something that is not well understood. And his whole life is a Testament to the pressure that he feels to try it be adored and. Excepted and deified in some ways. And so, I mean, there's a lot going on here for him and all the people who work with him. And I'm worried for all the people who work with him because the exposure lists that we're getting the people who've tested positive are the names we recognize.
No, there are so many people behind the scenes who have been exposed those and perhaps have contracted the virus and we're not getting that information. It hurts me when somebody tweets out a list that's like, Plus three journalists plus five debate staffers. Like those are people with names too, and they matter, and their risk here matters and we don't know how this is going to impact them.
So there
Sarah: [00:14:14] are
Beth: [00:14:16] so many layers to this whole thing, and I wish for all of us that we could get one calm, steady voice. That could cut through that and just share with us the reality of what we're facing. We have listeners asking us questions, like what happens if he dies before the voting ends or what happens if the 25th amendment kicks in or, you know, I don't know.
And I don't know if it's the right moment to ask, ask those questions because I don't know how serious this is and I don't, and I don't want to, to be, yeah. Alarmist, if there is nothing to be alarmed about, if he is truly. In the hospital to receive a battery of drugs and monitor levels that look pretty stable.
No, I don't think a transition of power is necessary. I just don't know if it's worse than that. I have no idea.
Sarah: [00:15:05] Well, I think honestly, anytime a president has checked into a hospital, there needs to be a serious conversation about transition of power and the 25th amendment. I just do. I think that's the smart, responsible.
Thing to do now. I don't, that doesn't mean I want it to trend on Twitter. I think that there needs to be people high up in the United States government that are prepared to know the answers to those questions and the 16 other different scenarios that could play out immediately. They shouldn't be caught flatfooted.
So like if he goes to the hospital, he's clearly receiving drugs for a severe case of COVID-19 then yeah. These questions need to be answered to me. The other thing I didn't even understand until this morning as I was reading, a lot of reporting is all these people that were exposed. Especially during the debate, which is next to a hospital.
And then we're going like nearby to the hotel without mask walking through the lobby, exposing other members of the public who are perhaps there to see, or be near people in the hospital for other types of treatments. Like it's just the, the level of selfishness and the level of, of either willful ignorance or deliberate disregard for the risk that they were putting other people under.
Is unbelievable. Like, I don't want to use shocking, I guess it's not shocking. They show willful disregard for people through their policies and their statements and their approaches all the time. But to see it play out in such a intense and obvious manner, I mean, this was obvious, right? Like it was clear by the way that they had been reacting to the virus.
They thought daily testing was going to protect everybody. That was, even though every medical expert says that there are holes in the testing, there are problems with the incubation period that like the regular testing is not a strategy in and of itself. So it was entirely predictable that this would unfold in the way that it did and that they would put themselves in other people and members of the public and their staffs.
And God knows who else and the country at large at risk, because they were engaging in risky behavior. The only thing that I pray is that they are held responsible for this. In the election that this district willful disregard for other people and for their own constituents is, you know, something that voters keep in mind as we all fill out our ballots or enter the voting booth.
Beth: [00:17:27] I think it can be hard because we're living this to keep the thread of like what we've learned about COVID-19 throughout the year, and to think about exactly where we are in that process. You know, I worry that a lot of people are still in that mindset of what were the lockdowns for, if we're all I'm going to get it.
And lock downs were for, was to keep people like my mom alive now. Right. We bought enough time. Without hospitals being just completely overrun, some were, but without our entire healthcare system, across the entirety of the country being so bogged down with cases that they could learn something and figure out what helps the president is probably going to recover much faster today than he would have if he had constructed this in March, because we flattening the curve meant something.
It was really important. And the testing. I think people are going to have questions about this. Yes. They had access to a level of testing at the White House that I sincerely wish we had in every, I don't know, public school throughout the country at a minimum, but we don't. So yes, they have really good frequent testing and a test is not a vaccine.
And I think, I think that they were treating the tests like a vaccine and I think pervasive in all of this thought. Is that you really can have like a classist inoculation to disease. That's not new in our history and our thinking either. But when you think about the equivalent of a wedding taking place at the White House to nominate a new Supreme court justice, and everybody thinking that's going to work out differently than a wedding, there is a real classes component to the way they're looking at this.
There's the disregard for science and the disrespect for science and the disrespect for other humans in the world. But there is also I think, a sense of like, well, where are the powerful, important people? We have access to all the good stuff. This won't get us. Same thing with the event at BedMaster that's a wedding, these events that the Trump campaign has been hosting and that the Trump administration has been hosting are the kinds of events that regular people all over the country have canceled or significantly changed or postponed out of concern for the people that they love.
And this administration, I think, has just been. In the mindset that if we have the best test, we have the best doctors and we're the best, most powerful people. It's not coming to our doorstep.
Sarah: [00:20:05] Well, and, you know, even in that mindset, which is wrong and reprehensible, The deliberate, like thumbing of your nose at all those Americans who have made tremendous sacrifices, people who haven't hugged their parents, grandparents who haven't seen, or even met their own grandchildren, people who have canceled weddings or gone to funerals, forget weddings like funerals, where people could not hug, loved ones who were suffering or could not even be in the same room to mourn a parent.
It's a, just such. A complete absence of leadership, of empathy, of compassion, of understanding that like, just because we could, maybe we shouldn't because other people can't people that are depending on us, people that look to us for leadership, but we have this moment to lock up the Supreme court and we want to celebrate that.
It's just so infuriating and it's so ugly. It's just ugly. And here's something else I want to say. With regards to who they're exposing to risk. So when I worked for Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign in 2007, I did advance work, which required close coordination with the secret service. And I got to know and work with many secret service agents.
And it was one of my favorite parts of the job so much so that I still have my secret service buttons. They give you for every event, still framed in my house. I have enormous respect for the secret services. I think many Americans do, and I cannot articulate. How
Elizabeth: [00:21:38] bad
Sarah: [00:21:39] it has to get for secret service agents or leadership to speak, even off the record to journalists about how they feel they're being put at risk.
The fact that he wanted to take a trip around the hospital, that he exposed the agents in the car, and many other people that he continues to, that he was walking around, going to these events, requiring security and exposing the agents themselves. To COVID exposing their family members. Can you even imagine sort of like we don't know, secret service agents with children, recovering from cancer parents with all sorts of, or spouses with all sorts of preexisting conditions and comorbidities that expose them to enormous risk and to do that.
So currently to treat them basically like staff is and to have them speak out because they're so frustrated is. A huge, huge deal.
Beth: [00:22:32] And this is what I would say to all of the comments about virtue signaling with mask, which I can't believe we even have to discuss, but there's a lot of this discussion out there.
I think we need some virtue to be signaled. I think that Joe Biden is right to wear a mask, even when he is quite distanced from people around him. And even when he's outside, because I think. He's just trying to say, like, this is what we're supposed to do and let's do it. Why take the risk? And having lived through this with my mom now, not even suffered it myself, just watch someone.
I really, really love go through this in a hard way. I don't understand why we would take the risk. Especially as flu season is coming. You know, I think about, again, mom's at home now, if she gets exposed to flu or just irregular cold or something else as her lungs are trying to build their way back to breathing without assistance, that would be catastrophic.
Why would we take those risks? It is not easy. Nothing about this year has been easy. But we have learned a lot over the course of the year and to be seven months into this and to watch the spread unfolding from Washington DC, it is really unnerving to me that no one seems to have a handle on this. I think it was Axios that described it over the weekend that there are.
This is a virus it's random, it's indiscriminate, we're smarter than it. And there are countries in the world now that are in control of this virus, but in the United States, the virus is still in control of us.
Sarah: [00:24:10] Well, they're not even the task force hasn't even been meeting. They've been meeting like what, once a week, as we approach a season, we know people will move indoors and that there will be increased risk and they're not even meeting regularly.
It's an unacceptable and. This is just the clearest manifestation. Get that they don't have a plan, have not had a plan, do not respect what Americans are going through. Do not have any desire except to further their own interests. And I was just speaking as the Trump administration as a whole. And it's just, you know, I don't know how much more clearly this could be put on display as we're all making assessments about who to vote for.
Beth: [00:25:04] Can we spend a minute on Brianna Taylor's case before we go on? Yeah, there've been lots of big developments in the Brianna Taylor case. Since we last spoke about it, a grand juror filed a motion. To have a judge make the grand jury proceedings not secret so that the public can understand what prosecutors presented as options to the grand jury.
The grand jury felt that the attorney general who ran for elected office seeking political and public accountability for his decisions hid behind the grand jury in announcing that charges would not be filed. Related to Brianna Taylor's murder, that the only charges would be wanting endangerment related to an officer firing into other apartments.
And so. Separate from that motion. The judge decided to release the records of the grand jury proceedings in the normal course of things. And the attorney general said that that would also result this motion and yeah. And make those records public. There are hours and hours of testimony that had been released.
I've read a number of accounts of those. I have not listened to them, myself, which is something I would love to do in a normal universe where other news weren't breaking every five seconds. But the takeaway to me is that number one, it is really unclear what happened that night and the grand jury received a version from prosecutors that they understood was unclear, but that prosecutors told them led to basically in escapable legal, legal conclusion.
And I think there's a really significant problem with the way Daniel Cameron described what happened to the public in those grand jury proceedings versus what actually happened in those grand jury proceedings that further diminishes public trust. And I also think it's clear from what was presented to the grand jury, that we have a significantly lax approach to narcotics warrants being executed.
Because it startled me to see that the detectives who went basically talked about themselves as an older group of you guys going to do this, because it should have been no big deal. And one guy wasn't even supposed to work that night and he volunteered to go. And there wasn't at least a written plan on how all these warrants were going to be served.
And. It just seems so amateur at every level for something as serious as entering a person's house. And I think that we've talked about a lot of good reforms to come out of this case for a while. But there are many, many more process issues that this case reveals need to be addressed coming, walking way back from the moment that they entered her apartment, it's just, it's really disturbing.
And it continues to make me feel so much for this family because it, this information to me makes her death all the more tragic, just all the more tragic.
Sarah: [00:28:12] Well, I just think there's this idea that grand juries are these sort of. Protected completely objective bodies that really just go through the evidence and make their own call.
And the truth is just like many other parts of the criminal justice process. That prosecutor plays an incredibly powerful role, too powerful. I think the thing I learned from my time studying criminal justice and law school is that prosecutorial discretion is part of the problem. And I think this is just one more representation of that, you know, especially because so many prosecutors are.
Elected. And so there are political ramifications. I think that's what you're seeing in the attorney General's case that instead of seeking justice, we're seeking good political outcomes. And they are often in conflict, not just in the, the individual cases, but in the processes themselves. Like with these warrants, like with drug charges, like with, Oh, I don't know the war on drugs at all, which was popular politically in a disaster, a national tragedy.
Policy-wise. I think there's an aspect for her family, that this has got to be so heartbreaking as they learn more. And also that they have to feel, I would feel if I was them like, well, at least I'm not like, it's like the revelation when you're being, gaslit like, you know, like, Oh, well I'm not crazy. Now we knew something was wrong.
We knew that this process was messed up and that they were basically lying to us. And so at least having a member of the grand jury. Bravely step forward and say like, Oh, what he said is not what happened? And we'll get there this family some sense that like their sense that they weren't being told the whole truth was correct.
Beth: [00:29:48] Before we transition to our conversations with Elizabeth and Eric. We went in to share a moment of hope and positivity. And here we are going to share with you a bit of Celeste Williams, speaking Celeste as a candidate for the United States Congress in Arkansas third congressional district. We had the pleasure of doing a Facebook live event with her.
She is. Very smart. She's a healthcare professional. She has a really focused perspective on COVID-19 as well as other issues. So here is Celeste.
Celeste Williams: [00:30:19] Hi, I'm Celeste Williams. I'm a family nurse practitioner and democratic candidate for us Congress in Arkansas. Third congressional district. I'm running for Congress because as a family, nurse practitioner, every day, I see patients struggling with the cost of healthcare and prescription drugs. And I believe that in a country with so much we can do better. No one should go broke because they get sick. We must invest in a world class education system that goes all the way from pre K two K through 12, and make sure that college is affordable for everyone. And that we have. Good job training opportunities for those who aren't going to college so that everyone can succeed because all workers in America should be, be paid a fair wage.
I hear from people every day about how, how exhausted they are with politics. People are tired and they don't want to hear continued divisive rhetoric. They want solutions to the real problems that they and their family are facing.
People want to make sure that they can get their healthcare needs met, that their kids are going to be able to finish college without starting life, tremendous amount of student debt.
They want to make sure that their kids have the same opportunities that they have had. I don't think that. Anyone's success in life should be determined by the zip code in which they live. I certainly want to make sure that we protect our democracy because I believe that is truly under attack right now.
And we have to have a government that is by the people and for people so that each and every person. Can live their American dream. However, they define that. Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to talk to you. And as an aside, I am such a fan girl of Pantsuit Politics. I love you both. Thank you so much for all the work that you do.
To learn more about my campaign, please visit my website, Celeste Williams for arkansas.com.
You can sign up to help volunteer, to make phone calls. And of course there's a great big donate button that you can contribute to our campaign. Again, I think it is so important to invest in areas that have been historically very conservative. And this district is changing. You can help me speed that change along so that everybody has an opportunity for better.
Sarah: [00:33:30] We are so thrilled to share these conversations with everyone. Today, I spoke with my best friend, Elizabeth, who I have been in conversation with about abortion and reproductive rights for almost the entirety of our 20 year friendship. And Beth spoke with Eric, a listener who she has built a relationship with.
Talking about the second amendment and gun control. Well, we really wanted to share our conversations with them because so many of you. Are either engaging with these conversations for the first time or engaging with these conversations in a more deep and complex way with your family members and what we're always saying on Pantsuit Politics and in our book, I think you're wrong, but I'm listening is that this is a long game, right?
And we often talk about that with Beth and I, that we're having this ongoing conversation, but we do this with other people in our lives. And you know, in such an intense moment, I think the best strategy is always to show don't tell. And so we wanted to show you what that looks like with these two very important people in our lives.
I am so excited to welcome my beloved friend, Elizabeth Farrell to Pantsuit Politics. Elizabeth Farrell , how long have we been friends? Before our names were Elizabeth Farrell and Sarah Holland that's one thing.
Elizabeth: [00:34:42] Well, yeah, for sure.
Since 1999,
Sarah: [00:34:46] 1999,
Elizabeth: [00:34:47] yesterday and a hundred years ago.
Sarah: [00:34:49] Yeah. Yeah. And how long have we been talking about abortion during that friendship friend?
Elizabeth: [00:34:55] Since 1999, we were on the same side. And you were a staunch Baptist.
Sarah: [00:35:04] Yeah, I was a super Baptist when I came to Transy. That is truth. That is truth. That is accurate. We fell in love at the same time. We're the same grade. Um, I do feel like our conversations shifted when we had kids, but let's go back to that. Um, let's go back to our religious background.
So I was a staunch Baptist. Um, you are what I love only call a super Catholic. Do you want to lay out your Catholic bone a few days for people?
Elizabeth: [00:35:32] Sure. So, um, I grew up in a really Catholic city with really Catholic parents church, every single Sunday. And I still do to this day for the most part. And, um, I actually love being Catholic and it's funny, my aunt always tells the story about how, uh, my parent's church shopped for different denominations when I was in like grade school.
And we would go to these churches and I would say it doesn't feel like home, which is really funny, um, because they were, I don't know if I would always say that now, but, um, Anyway. Yeah. I still feel at home in the Catholic church and, um, I just have one, bro. I just have one brother, but I have, um, I'm married it on Catholic who then converted 12 years in 12 years in no nine years in.
And uh, we have five children.
Sarah: [00:36:23] Yeah. Lots of cat. Lots of lots. A big Catholic family. Yeah. Let's get like families. Um, I always tell people that we would drive to the beach and you and your family would be in the car for like six hours. And your butts would drive straight to mass so that you didn't. Yes.
Ma'am
Elizabeth: [00:36:40] so we didn't miss mass. And so we didn't have to get up the next morning because you know, priorities,
Sarah: [00:36:45] you have a little app on your phone that tells you all the mass times around Paducah. When you come visit me, I do, it's
Elizabeth: [00:36:52] got to hit the feast days and everything.
Sarah: [00:36:54] Yeah. Now you told me though, when we, and I asked you if you wanted to do this podcast, that you wouldn't be Catholic enough for other people.
Right.
Elizabeth: [00:37:00] Right. Because you know, it's a competition.
Sarah: [00:37:02] Ah, I didn't know. That will actually cause that happens in every denomination.
Elizabeth: [00:37:07] Yeah, exactly.
Sarah: [00:37:07] Exactly. So, yeah, go ahead.
Elizabeth: [00:37:11] No, in high school, I went to a very, um, conservative, non diocesan. So non diocesan just mean it's not part of the Catholic diocese. We were in, it was an independent Catholic school.
It was so Catholic. It didn't fit in. And, uh, and I wasn't Catholic enough all the time for those people. And sometimes it gave me a real complex.
Sarah: [00:37:31] That's funny. Well, it's just funny to me. Cause I think a lot of people will like try to burn me and they'll they're throughout my life. They'll do a lot of like, Oh, well, You're just so liberal and clean them on father.
You're just so liberal. You won't even hear people. I disagree with you. And I just want to be like, I always want to trot you out is like you don't understand. I have been having this conversation for 20 plus years with someone with very different religious background from me. And I don't have, we don't have these problems.
So it's really not about whether somebody disagrees with you or not. No,
Elizabeth: [00:38:05] no. It's about, I think it's really so much about listening to the other person's perspective and understanding that you're not there to convert each other. That's not what, that's not what friendship is about. It's not about
Sarah: [00:38:16] because cause truly
Elizabeth: [00:38:17] like, can you be friends with someone who you need them to agree with you on everything?
If cause if you do, then you're going to have a really small group of friends. That's the truth of it. And not that a large group of friends is the goal here, but like we all have to live together and it's helpful to learn, to live with lots of different people.
Sarah: [00:38:35] Well, and I think what the paradox is because we.
Well, I won't say that ever. I was not trying to convert you, especially early, before we became mothers in college. I think in college, I was trying to convert everybody else. In fact, I was thinking, I was thinking back to all our conversations and I think the most only time, I really remember you getting like seriously riled at me is that time.
And I think we were still in college, in the car when I said, well, why can't. I just not tell anybody and take community and out of the Catholic church, even though I'm not Catholic, do you remember how mad you got?
Elizabeth: [00:39:06] I was like, why don't you, you know, here, I think that this is funny, cause I just read those four tendencies.
I think part of that though, is that I am very much a, what am I, Sarah obliger. Yeah.
Sarah: [00:39:18] And I'm a rebel. Well, no, I'm a questioner.
Elizabeth: [00:39:23] You're a questioner. So you're questioning. Why is this necessary? And I'm pushing. Why would you ever question it?
Sarah: [00:39:27] Yeah.
Elizabeth: [00:39:30] That is more of like, because what is the priest who married us was like, I prefer, we were just debating whether to have a mass or just a marriage ceremony. Right. And he was like, I don't like first communions at weddings. So like he clearly took it in stride and he was like, nah, there's just no need to put everybody through that.
If most of your people coming to your wedding, aren't Catholic. There's just no need. And. So, yeah, I mean, and that was obviously later then,
Sarah: [00:39:57] and I think that that's also a reflection of what's happened a lot in our conversations and it's true for Beth and us conversation too. I think we sorted out pretty quickly.
Well, I don't know, not, not pretty quickly and not without some strife that our personalities are different and acknowledging like so much of this is about personalities. Like, you know, whenever I say on the show, like, Oh, we have to rub each other's rough edges off. I always think of you in our also Catholic friend, Aaron, um, And my college roommate for three years who have different, very different personalities than me and were like, you know, I just remember so many times where y'all were like, Hey, we get that.
You like to argue. That's cool. We don't, um, it's not like a reflection of anything other than like, that's just not our favorite hobby. Like it is your favorite hobby. And I was like, Oh, Oh, okay. Okay. I can, I think I understand sort of.
Elizabeth: [00:40:46] Yeah, definitely true. And I think over time too, I don't know about if this is true for everyone, but I know it's true for me because I will, I will go into territory that I know is dangerous waters with my family now that I used to never, I would know those waters, but now I will.
And they don't like it. And he was like, I told him what I was doing. And
I said, you were going to interview Elizabeth Warren. He was like,
who would ever interview her? I was like, well, Sarah. And he goes, yeah,
Sarah: [00:41:16] Yeah, cause she's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I just think like, well, and I never felt that from either of you, even at like, when we were in college, like I knew we felt differently, but I never felt in our conversations even before we had kids that.
Yeah, there was like moral judgment. Like there was like, definitely we are not going to agree on this, but not because you're a terrible person and I can not see in any. And I never felt that way about you. Like I understood where you're coming from. I disagree with it, but I understood where you were coming from.
But I do think once we were both mothers, the conversations definitely changed. Don't you.
Elizabeth: [00:41:52] Oh, definitely. I mean, I think what a neighbor asked me, not that long ago, have you changed since you had your first child? And I looked at her and I was like, I am the same person, but I'm a completely different person.
And so I think that changes your perspective on life so much that it can't help change your conversations with your friends.
Sarah: [00:42:09] Yeah. And I, I just think that, I think both of us. You know, from my view, looking back on them, I think both of us just started to see the complexity of both of our sides
Elizabeth: [00:42:19] more clearly,
Sarah: [00:42:20] and that it wasn't simple.
And it's never simple. Once you go through, I think pregnancy and birth and become a parent, like you just realize like, Oh, the idea that this is clear cut is absolutely ludicrous,
Elizabeth: [00:42:32] right? Yes. Well,
Sarah: [00:42:33] and I also think, you know, looking back over sort of how we've the conversation has changed. In the way. And I think this helped me think through it more clearly is you really pushed me to separate like the ethical from.
Laws like, you know, and I think it's funny cause I think your position shifted on that over time too. But I think you really, because you're because I was coming from a perspective of policy primarily, and you were coming from a person active of ethics primarily. And so I think you saw that clear more clearly.
And before I did that, Hey, we're talking on two different playing fields. So we might as well figure out which one we want to talk about.
Elizabeth: [00:43:11] And, you know, I'm such a science nerd. That was another thing that really bugs me about the abortion conversation to start. I mean, even when I was in high school, it bothered me that you have to use really precise language about what you mean, because I think there's arguments
Sarah: [00:43:24] someplace
Elizabeth: [00:43:25] arguing about this.
This is not an argument. Your language for there to be an argument.
Sarah: [00:43:30] I mean, killing babies is not a precise argument or killing, not a precise. You don't, you don't hear the precision of science in that language.
No, cause I think so. I, that to me is like the first part. In fact, I'm not really sure. I remember us having like really strong arguments about abortion in college. My memory start. Like sort of in our mid twenties when we were able to kind of clarify, well, we're, you're talking about this and I'm talking about this and those are two different things.
That's kind of where my, my memories of really good conversations begin.
Elizabeth: [00:44:05] Yeah, I agreed.
Sarah: [00:44:06] Which is probably not an accident.
Elizabeth: [00:44:10] I mean, certainly not, certainly not.
Sarah: [00:44:12] Yeah. And I think, you know, as I look back like kind of where we've gone over time too, I think it's funny. Cause you know, in so many ways, like particularly your mom was such a foil for conversations because she feels so strongly about it.
Did you ever feel pulled, like, did you feel like I was in one ear and she was in the other. Oh,
Elizabeth: [00:44:32] gosh, I still feel that way when we're not on the podcast. Well, and maybe we start out with now, but so I voted yesterday, right? Not in the United States and we have to do. Malin bell ballads. And so we do mail and they say on their, their military ballots.
I don't know if everybody's say that, but, um, anyway, that's, that's our ballot, even though we are not active duty military anymore.
And, um, so I voted yesterday and I, I am a note. I'm a never Trumper.
And, um, my mom has a really hard time with that and I was like, look, mom, I didn't vote for him last time, but you got your, your, uh, Supreme court judges.
And now there's going to be another one and he even might get to do this one. And before he out of office, and so the Supreme court judges are done, I'm never Trumper and I'm going to vote the way I'm going to vote and you don't get to pick. And I think he crazy person. And then that's all I told Shelly that I would, he asked me what I wanted for my birthday.
And I said, I went, I want an inter Corona. And I also want a president who doesn't flippantly say that he's not so sure about the handover of power. If he's going to go with.
I told my mother that, and she was like, he didn't say that you listened to the wrong news.
I'm like, Oh, Christ Almighty,
Sarah: [00:45:43] Oh Lord, Lord,
Elizabeth: [00:45:46] help me now, help me now to handle this.
Sarah: [00:45:48] But I do think, I think talking to each other does help me. Like, I think it helps me understand where people are coming from. And I think, you know, you know, with my dad, cause obviously my dad feels differently than I do. And it's almost like I can, you know, I hope it doesn't make me like cocky, but there is a part of me that feels that like, it feels like, well, I have the wind at my back cause I have somebody.
Who I've been talking about this with the law for a long time. And even though we don't see the world completely the same, we see this the same. Right. I think a lot of women who feel that way right now, like I'm not, I might not be an evangelical Republican, and I might not be, you know, a hardcore Catholic and I might be, but like, there's this like this sort of crowd of women that are like, well, we're all different, but we see this the same.
So we're clearly not crazy.
Elizabeth: [00:46:41] Right. And I think that's very true, you know, when, look at who I want to be the president of the United States. And I want that to be someone who I can call a role model to my children. And obviously there are serious exceptions to that. Nixon stands out, but like, you know, and they're not going to be in a role model in every sense, single way.
Right. But you want somebody who can at least get up and act like an adult in front of a room of adults and who can answer a question coherently on a consistent basis. And I just don't, I don't see that. And so this is this to me, this goes way beyond. Way beyond political parties.
Sarah: [00:47:14] Well, how do you feel about that?
So when you need your children, mom, that's interesting that you said like, well, you got your justices Dyke. How would you feel if they, if the Supreme court overturned Roe V. Wade, what do you think would happen to the abortion debate? If that, if that came to be.
Elizabeth: [00:47:28] What do I think would happen to the abortion debate?
I don't know that the debate would change to be honest. I think that, um, instead of, I think it would, I don't think the abortion debate itself is going to change ever,
Sarah: [00:47:42] but that's depressing. That's so depressing. Why can't they all just follow our lead?
Elizabeth: [00:47:48] I don't know. I don't well, well, I think there's always going to be.
The all the kinds of people that we have in the world right now, I think there will always be all of those kinds of people. So I don't think the debate will change. Um, but I think that. That our legal system will be very close. Like I don't, I just, I see that the problem with abortion is so much deeper than a law, right?
So I mean, my stance on abortion as far as do I think it's right or wrong, it's wrong. I think it's wrong. And I think it's wrong in all cases. And I know that there are lots and lots of people who would disagree with that. That doesn't mean, I think it needs to be illegal. I don't know if that even makes sense, but I don't think that it being illegal makes it so that nobody ever does it.
Right. And I think that that is a false or that we tell ourselves. Um, and I think that reading a lot of history has really taught me that there is never been a time in the history of the universe that women haven't had unwanted pregnancies and that it's never going to change. That's never going to change.
And again, I think a lot of people would have a problem with me saying that I don't think overturning Roe V. Wade is the answer, but it's not. I mean, I feel like we're lying to ourselves. If we say that, I mean, you've, you and Beth have taught me that overturn is not the reason the right terminology, but reversing that decision or making a new decision that makes that moot.
It's not going to change people's minds. It's not going to make all the pro choicers in the world go. Oh, right. No abortion is wrong. Yeah. And so I, because I think that there is, there's so much deeper problems. And then the other, the other issue I have. With this idea of overturn Roe V. Wade. Okay. Overturn.
So every woman now has to have these babies. Okay. And I think all babies are precious. I really deep in my heart believe that. Um, I think that, um, and this is my Catholicism that God creates these souls and puts them into these people who can be amazing. And I think everybody has that in them. I truly do.
Um, But the same party that wants all the women to have all the babies doesn't want to make any change in healthcare to make having those babies easier or give women any additional benefits that allow them to continue to work and take care of those babies. Um,
Sarah: [00:50:11] listen, that's true. For one in pregnancy is much less unwanted pregnancies.
Exactly. Yeah. You don't get support for one in pregnancies either. That's the problem. Right. Well, and I just think it's hard to, and this is what I've learned from listening to you for all these years. When you say it's wrong, what, you're not saying some sort of moral judgment on the woman. It's not like she is wrong.
She is bad. And that's what all those Lang all those laws about. Right. We'll let us preach to you about the heartbeat and let us make you watch ultrasounds. That's the assumption, right? Is that she's a bad moral actor. And if we can just get in front of her, then we can change that.
Elizabeth: [00:50:45] Right. And I think I'm going to say something that might come across as judgmental, but I think sometimes when people say those things, I hear women who've never had a pregnancy.
They felt ambivalent about. Mm. Um, and I think as a mom of five, I have been pregnant and thought, Oh my lands. I don't know.
Sarah: [00:51:04] Yeah,
Elizabeth: [00:51:06] sure. How this is going to change my family. I'm worried. And that doesn't mean, I think I want to kill this baby. Right? Which of course that's the language I use, but I don't want to terminate this pregnancy.
That's not what I want. Um, and I'm willing to make that sacrifice. That's the word, right? Is it a sacrifice? Love is always a sacrifice and you're choosing to love this, which means that you're choosing to not do other things. There are things that aren't going to happen because this is what I'm choosing.
Yeah. Um, and I don't, I think that by, I think that the abortion debate really on both sides sometimes oversimplifies all of it. Oh yeah. Um, and I don't understand the nastiness. I think that's, to me that's the most. Distasteful thing to me about the book is that the nastiness that goes on and on, I mean that for both sides.
Sarah: [00:51:54] Well, yeah, cause it becomes this. I think what the pro choice people feel is like, Oh, well, you know, they hear language about every life is a gift from God. And then this harsh judgment for the women as if the women are not children of God, you know, as if they are not supposed to be cared for and valued.
And I, you know, I think too, like, you know, look, I haven't had a pregnancy. I was ambivalent about. Yeah. I wanted all three of my pregnancies and also I get it because even pregnancies, you want that you're not ambivalent about the child. Like you're planning the child. It's still like, Oh, like you just see it all stretched out in front of you, the carrying the baby, the delivering the baby, the newborns toddlers, toddlers are terrible creatures.
They just are. That's why they make them so cute. They're terrible. They're bad. They're a little terrorists.
Elizabeth: [00:52:42] I want to give my children away at mobility and take them back. I want to get through my mom when they're, when the robot, and then I want to take them back when they're three and a half
Sarah: [00:52:48] and toddler boarding school, this should be a thing I feel very short.
And so like, it's just, if you can't recognize like that, like this is it. And it's not even. Like, it's not even just the pregnancy and birth. And my fact that like, for some women, when they say, well, make the sacrifice, well, that sacrifice might be their job and the ability to feed other children, you know, like that's like we have to really lay that out and deal with that.
And that you have that kid forever. It's not just, even if you give them up for adoption, that's still a part of your life story. Right. And I think that just, you know, women, like, again, like you said, like who can acknowledge the complexity of the impact on your life and the. Sort of ambivalence that even with one did pregnancies, you can kind of face and like, cause that's why I think that's why I first pregnancies and it breaks my heart that nobody gets, not everybody gets this experience, but like, that's why first pregnancies are so precious.
Cause you don't know what's coming and you can never get back to that space
Elizabeth: [00:53:45] is
bliss. Y'all
Sarah: [00:53:46] it? Is it really, really? And I think for my side, like I I've seen you like really like. I think, I don't know if shifts the right word, but just like grow in complexity with re with regards to the, sort of the legal issues.
And I think I've really seen the, the moral complexity of it. And I think, you know, I'll never forget, like when I lost my pregnancy at 20 weeks. Oh my gosh. And then I said, like, I just feel like it's different for somebody with a. Miscarriage. I feel like I would never compare this to somebody who had a stillborn.
I would never compare this to somebody. If I had a stillborn, I wouldn't compare it to somebody who was a child at five. And I remember you saying, yeah, but we can't take like the level of grief as a, as an objective value of human life. And I was like, that's a good point.
Elizabeth: [00:54:33] Here's the thing too. Like, um, My grief
Sarah: [00:54:37] when I
Elizabeth: [00:54:38] lost my pregnancy was different.
And then what I watched a friend of mine go through. Um, and it's so interesting to me cause I've, I'm part of this. Um, it's a, I think it's just Catholic women, but it's a pregnancy loss Facebook group that a friend of mine, um, Had added me too shortly after that. And some women who lose babies at eight weeks are devastated, devastated, and
Sarah: [00:55:05] it's just really
Elizabeth: [00:55:06] hard.
Like I don't, I didn't feel that attached, but honestly he's been dead. He was devastated in a way that I didn't understand, but, and I think too, it was because I kind of, I knew something was not right.
And. And I think I had emotionally detached myself at that point, when I realized I'm not feeling this baby move, something is going on, something's not right.
You know, and I mean, I got, of course you go through all the crazy scenarios in your head, but I mean, he was, he was devastated,
Sarah: [00:55:34] especially when your best friend had lost a baby at exact same moment. I mere, mere months before it was wild
Elizabeth: [00:55:41] and not just you, Sarah. Like I had it. Two other friends who lost babies after I feel like anything after 12 weeks.
So like you, you let your guard down, right. Your heartbeat at 12 weeks. I'm good. And you, you kind of move on. Okay. I'm going to, I'm starting to think about, you know, other things, how is this going to impact my feeling? How's the, you know, what's going to happen next and, and then, and then that's not what's hot.
Anyway. I think people got it gives me people. Yeah, that's, that's how God works in my life is he gives me people to call and he puts them into my head. It just the right moment.
Sarah: [00:56:13] Why not have the same experience? I did not feel it way. I did not impact me the way I could. And when you said that, I was like, she's right.
And I think that's putting that, you know, I think separating the conversation was like separating. What we were talking about was really helpful and then realizing like, because of the complexity of that articulation like that we can't use there's really no objective way. To do this to, to, to draw aligned that will work ethically for everyone within the judicial system.
Right. That's the problem is, you know, you draw because you feel like there's no, like the grief is not a good level. And because you feel like due to your faith, there is a line that needs to be drawn. You draw it at conception. Well, because I'm much more comfortable not drawing a line ethically insane. I don't actually need to know.
I don't, I don't need to have an answer. Right. There is a continuum and I don't need to place a dot on it. It's just not up to me. So to me, like that's what helped me put together. And I don't know about you like the different, the way I articulate my beliefs about being pro-choice legally is like, because there it's impossible to draw the line for everybody, then we should let everybody draw the line for themselves because what do you want a government panel deciding, like, that seems like a bad plan.
Elizabeth: [00:57:26] I always tell people I feel very libertarian about, about abortion. I don't think that we should make laws that judge morals and other people's lives because I don't think that's the role of the government. So I think that's why I'm a little bit more comfortable with leading Roe v. Wade the way it is.
Um, and I liked RBGs stand point of, we need to leave this up to the States.
I like that too, actually, in, in preparation for this, um, I hadn't even told Shelly that, uh, I was doing this.
Sarah: [00:57:53] Shelley's Elisabeth's husband, everyone
Elizabeth: [00:57:55] um, but he had some Apple news story came across. That was about German abortion law. So I looked at, yeah.
Sarah: [00:58:03] Oh, that's interesting. Cause you're living in Germany right now.
Elizabeth: [00:58:05] Yes. Yes. We live in Germany and, um, A friend of mine here actually told me. So this woman has children, my children, my older children's ages. But when she became pregnant with her first child, they had thought that they weren't having children. They weren't able to have children. And then she went into the German doctor and they said, Oh, this is a surprise.
Do we need to do something about it? No, no, I'm, I'm fine. And it was just like she said, it was presented in a very matter of fact way, but it sort of blindsided her because she said, you know, She would never, you'll never hear that. However, when I, when Shelly was talking to me about this article, he came across, he was like, you know, in Germany, you can't have an abortion after 12 weeks.
And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Because I personally, for me, I think that's a good line if you're going to make lines, um, because it's well in advance of viability and vitality, I feel like it's such a moving line, but anyway, is that we are already moving. Right. I looked it up and in fact it is 12 weeks and it's fascinating.
So abortion is actually punishable under German law under section two 18, but then in section two 18, a it provides, um, exemptions to this. And I haven't read the actual. Um, law, but my understanding is that it's like in whatever circumstances you find yourself, you give some sort of reasoning and then you can do this up to 12 weeks.
Well then apparently recently in the last year, I feel like this was fall of 2019. There was another article that talked about section two 19 and two 19 is a Nazi era law that actually, um, has some sort of um, criminal punishment for performers and recipients of abortion. Wow. And the right, um, right wing.
I'm going to say, right. Wing activists in Germany has been sort of, um, bringing this up and there was an abortion doctor. Christine Hemel, I think is her name is H a M L um, was actually five, 6,000 year old. Um, for advertising. Oh no, I guess it's about advertising. I can't remember. Anyway, there's loss. If you want to know Sarah, you can look them up.
Sarah: [01:00:09] Yeah, no, I just looked it up and it said it's illegal under two 18, but Deek simultaneously decriminalized under section two 18 AEs, what's saying it's illegal, but you won't get punished for it. And that is up to the first trimester. And, but there are exemptions for the condition of mandatory counseling and.
Yes. Permitted in later in pregnancy under like certain exceptions. Well, you know what, when you said that, I thought, well, of course they considered it 12 weeks because you walk into a doctor's office and they handle it matter of factly and you don't like you, don't the reason. So many times I think people get pushed past 12 weeks is because they're in States where they can't get somewhere or they're in families are terrified to tell.
It's like, you know, they're in this situation where they're caught in a corner and they wait and wait and wait and wait and wait. It's the same way. How I feel about emergency contraception. Well, first of all, I don't think emergency contraception ever prevents pregnancy. I think science can't prove a negative.
So they can't say definitively never, ever, never, ever will it disrupt the fertilized egg. So they have to say, well, we could, but you know how to keep it from ever baby doing that. P S I don't think it could is to give it sooner, but if you make it harder to get, then you're actually increasing the chances that it would disrupt a fertilized egg versus just disrupt the process.
Like, that's the stuff that wears me out. It's like you said, like, if you want to do stuff that prevents abortion, Then you don't make it harder to get birth control. You don't make it harder to get abortion in the first trimester, right? Yeah.
Elizabeth: [01:01:30] That too, that making it harder to get birth control, which again, as a Catholic, I'm not real pro birth control, but.
I think most Christian denominations are first of all. And then why do we leave it up to our employers to decide our health insurance? I could go off on it.
Sarah: [01:01:43] Well, yeah, that's that's, that is definitely the compromise Beth and I've had to, and that's so funny too, because like, you mean you're like a Catholic I'm meanwhile, over here working at planned Parenthood and we're both like,
Elizabeth: [01:01:53] yeah.
Sarah: [01:01:54] Birth controls, the devil, like we don't need the rest. I get, it's not the devil. I know it's very important for some people's healthcare. And, but, but in our friendship it has been a point of agreement that it does not work well. It definitely doesn't work well for my particular
Elizabeth: [01:02:07] home hormones.
Sarah: [01:02:08] And I think you're the first person that was like your periods.
It's not the big, the end of your cycle. It's the beginning. I don't know why is set up birth control like that. It's like so deliberately, like miseducating people.
Elizabeth: [01:02:19] Yeah, well, and I think it too, in the United States, we make all of women's health about sex. And that is so hugely problematic in so many ways for so true.
Sarah: [01:02:30] That is so true.
Elizabeth: [01:02:32] I hate it. I absolutely hate it. I thought, well, you know, they make this big deal about, you have to teach abstinence only, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, why didn't we not teach this stuff in biology? Yeah, wait, it just wears me out. Like this can be part of a science class and be less ridiculous,
Sarah: [01:02:46] but I need to listen to my friend, um, Erin moon's podcast, she just did one on five to Jason about purity culture.
It was so good. And she just talked about like, you know, There can be sexual ethics. There should be sexual ethics, but that they should not revolve around fear and shame. Like that should not be the motivating value when you're trying to teach your child a sexual ethic, like, or just to articulate your own sexual ethic, you know, like this kind of purity discussed, being tainted, fear, shame, all that stuff.
Like it's so toxic. And it's like, nobody, I don't even know how the most pro-life. Hardcore overturn Roe V. Wade person could look at our culture surrounding birth pregnancy sex, and even, and be like, man, we're killing it. We're doing such a good job.
Elizabeth: [01:03:32] Yeah. I would like to think nobody
Sarah: [01:03:34] mitten. There's probably people that do well.
Here's another fun German statistic. I read yesterday that if America had Germans mortality rate for COVID-19 140,000, fewer Americans would be dead. Oh, wow. Is that not crazy?
Elizabeth: [01:03:49] That is kind of crazy.
Sarah: [01:03:50] Yeah. That's a lot of Americans. Okay. So as you look back over our 20 plus years of conversations about this, this topic that seems to, uh, tear everybody else apart, what's your let's do high and lows like we do with our kids.
What was your low and this conversation or debate and what's your high? Like where do you feel like you're sitting now? I
Elizabeth: [01:04:10] don't know that I will say that in our conversations, I think one of the best conversations we had was in our, we were walking through my neighborhood on the horse trips. And, uh, we were talking about kind of the, like, I think we were stuck.
We were talking past one another and I said, well, when you say alive, I mean, It's a human life. Science is not arguing whether the life inside this woman is a human life or not. And so when you say alive, I don't like that language. If you want to say that the baby doesn't have the unborn human doesn't have moral status.
Okay. I can,
Sarah: [01:04:43] because you were like, cause that's the one where you were like, your liver is alive. Right. Kidneys are alive.
Elizabeth: [01:04:49] Yeah. I really, I struggle with the language because I don't like that language. So we, I really felt like we had a meeting of the minds and sometimes now I hear you a gesture language and I'm like, Oh man, that's totally a part of that conversation.
And so I think that was one of those times where we. We really hurt each other and understand, like I understood where you were coming from and still we were taught. Anyway. I just thought that was a really great one. And then I think I got frustrated with you. Um, we were having dinner in Paducah one night and it was just you and me, Nicholas had gone to get Shelly or something crazy.
We did something crazy and, uh,
Sarah: [01:05:24] we do that from time to time.
Elizabeth: [01:05:27] Yeah,
Sarah: [01:05:28] we make crazy travel plans. It's
Elizabeth: [01:05:29] our waitress. I remember we had golden beets and that's kind of random, but the waitress like walked up and then heard what our conversation was and walked away to know. We know we discussed it, but it was really heated.
We're really heated, but it was the next morning. I think he tried to reintroduce the conversation. I was like, Nope, I'm all done. Me and Erin moments. I was like, Nope, I had that conversation last night. I'm all done with it. So I would say that,
Sarah: [01:05:56] you know, I think for me, what I see over and over again is like, I hear something.
And it, it like, you know, it pushes every button for me. I'm like, it's clicking and I'm clicking and my mind goes, yeah, but you better run it by Elizabeth. Cause if I not click for her and if it doesn't click for her, then we got a problem. This is not universal. So I mean, there's, it's like I have a running list in my head while I'm like, well, I'm gonna have to see what Elizabeth thinks about this one.
Cause this makes a lot of sense to me. But if it doesn't make a lot of sense to her, then there's not something clearly not universal about it. Well, and I think too,
Elizabeth: [01:06:25] I think one of the ways to really. That we've gotten good at talking to one another about, this is realizing that there's a bigger picture here.
Right? And I, I tell I've told a group of girlfriends, um, that's one of the things that I have to realize, and I know you, Beth, you and Beth have talked about this. Like your opinions differ about how to get places, but oftentimes your goals are the same. So like you and I want to raise. Happy healthy kids who are well educated and who have moral boundaries and have a faith, right?
Yeah.
Sarah: [01:06:58] Yeah.
Elizabeth: [01:06:59] And you can fit like a very strongly pro-choice mindset into that framework.
Sarah: [01:07:07] Yeah.
Elizabeth: [01:07:08] I can fit a very strongly pro-life mindset into that framework.
So clearly we
can come at these things from different ways and you are not a terrible person. I know this. And so
Sarah: [01:07:18] I am in fact, not a terrible person,
Elizabeth: [01:07:21] but I think that sometimes we lose sight of that and it isn't vitally important that we remember that that is Mo that is so much bigger than the opinions that we have.
And, yeah. Anyway,
Sarah: [01:07:33] that's why I love that non, I think about that nonviolent communication book. I read recently where he said, if you are disagreeing, it's not about values. It's about strategies because values are universal. Right. And so, you know, everybody wants their kids to be better off. Now. Some people think that's by, uh, you know, securing a white supremacist state.
Clearly we differ on the strategy to get there. Um, and their strategy is in fact dangerous and need some nice boundaries around it. But like, I just think that that's the, you know, when you can find that those universal values, but I think, you know, I think the question is it's like, I just told my mom, we were talking about this.
Who wins when we're all fighting about gay marriage and abortion. Exactly. Who's what who's, that's something we have when we're all turning on each other over these topics who's actually benefiting. Cause I don't think it's, uh, unborn fetuses. I don't think it's a heterosexuality. I don't think it's the Catholic church under really any, any guideline or the church at all.
Any church. So who is, who is benefiting like everybody stop and ask yourself who is actually benefiting. Right when we're fighting each other about this and turning on each other about this.
Elizabeth: [01:08:44] I don't know. I don't know.
Sarah: [01:08:47] I mean, it's the people in power. I can tell you that much.
Elizabeth: [01:08:50] Yeah, no kidding. Well, and I think too, the way that you and Beth talk about "both and".
I love the both, and I have used that so many times recently I've used it with, I mean, Louisville is my hometown and it is burning right. Literally and figured it well figuratively all the time. And literally sometimes, and I'm so sad for it.
And there's so much both and in the air. Yeah. Gosh. I mean, I feel really bad for that attorney general layer.
Um, I think that guy is a guy with a heart, for, he wants to go far and service, and I think he really has a heart for, I want to do this. I want to be, I want to do good work. I see that in him and right now in the situation that he's in, it's not decisions he's even made and he has to put them forth and they've got police around him.
And I, I feel really, really bad for him. Um, and I feel terrible for Brianna Taylor's mom, friend. I mean, Oh my gosh, what a terrible situation for, you know, Someone in my family said, well, she dated a bad guy. And I said, okay, so no, got for dating.
Sarah: [01:09:57] None of our beds in our homes. Yeah. For a drug charge that they didn't even find there.
I think that, that, you know, and I think, you know, you, you have much more grace for Daniel camera than I do because he is a Mitch McConnell acolyte. And so that taint seminar
Elizabeth: [01:10:11] I'm sure. Well, you know, we try to get there any way we
Sarah: [01:10:14] can. That's true. And I think, but I think like, you know, The idea that you have to choose caring about racial justice or, you know, caring about order.
I hate using the word order. See, like, you can't even say law and order. I'm going to say rule of law. Um, because I think Donald Trump is a bigger threat to rule of law than the black lives matter movement. Um, on that, for sure. Like, you know, I think that that. The it's again, it's the, it's the same thing that people who benefits when they tell us it's a bond and we have to choose not right.
When they say like, you have to choose, you're either pro-life or pro choice. And you're at an enemy of the other person like this, just not true. It's just not true. And the idea that like, well, you either still want police in your community or you're a racist, like, no, I don't know. I think that that's, that's a false choice.
That's a definitely a false choice. Like I think that. And putting it to people like that, who benefits when they make that choice stark. And they tell you anybody who disagrees with you is
Elizabeth: [01:11:14] your enemy. Right. And I think, I think maybe that's what, that's the upshot of all of it, of it abortion. I was what's going on is that there's so much gray and we don't want to acknowledge it.
We don't want to know we want it to be easy. We want it to be black and white. Actually. I can hear one of the people on the committee that decides at Transylvania, they have a committee that decides whether you get to be recommended for medical school or not. And I was planning to go to medical school and I ended up deciding not to, but.
Um, that committee, one of the members said you're too black and white. Hm. And I would say, you know, if you were listening to this today, I would think he would say, wow, you've really gone into a shade of gray.
Sarah: [01:11:53] And the thing is like,
Elizabeth: [01:11:54] you can have personal blacks and whites, right? You can, um, until your blacks and whites start MIS you know, blending with those around you,
Sarah: [01:12:06] the reality of the,
Elizabeth: [01:12:07] of the thing is if you want them, that's great American experience, experiment to succeed.
There's going to have to be a lot of gray, you know, I mean, like. You know, read these biographies of our founding fathers. There's going to be a lot of gray y'all there just has to be,
Sarah: [01:12:19] there has to be well, and that's what I tell you know, this, I told you this already, but this guy from my past rolled up into my DMS and Instagram about abortion and was like, it's just unfathomable to me that people would feel this way.
And I want to be like, Well, it shouldn't be because it's literally like half of America disagrees with you on this. So that should give you pause. Like it gives me pause. So many people vote for Donald Trump because it is unfathomable to me that people for him, but they do. And so I need to think about why, and if there's anything I'm missing and not decide that it's just because they're all a moral psychopaths.
I don't believe every person that votes for Donald Trump is an amoral psychopath. Yeah. I believe he has an amoral soak cycle.
Elizabeth: [01:13:02] Right, right. It's like, it's hard, but sometimes I think it's hard
Sarah: [01:13:05] to
Elizabeth: [01:13:06] pull out. And I think this is such a unique time in our history right now because we haven't, I don't feel like we've had something like this before.
You know, I've never voted differently than my parents before. And I've voted differently from my
Beth: [01:13:17] parents the last time.
Sarah: [01:13:19] But,
Elizabeth: [01:13:19] you know, I just don't. I think this is one of those times where we have to really look hard and think hard about what do we, you know, what is our, what are our longterm goals here?
And let's not sacrifice relationships and family and all of these things for this thing. That's going to last for years. Right?
Sarah: [01:13:39] We'll tell you four years of short,
Elizabeth: [01:13:40] because in the military you do everything for four years. It's a short period of time.
Sarah: [01:13:43] Yeah. Anyway, well, friend, thank you for having these conversations with me for so long.
And for being my friend. Oh my God. I was much less agreeable to argue with.
Elizabeth: [01:13:54] Oh my gosh. Yeah. This has been, um, a wonderful 20 years. I'm planning to do it for at least another 20 more.
Sarah: [01:14:00] Agreed, agreed.
Elizabeth: [01:14:02] We get closer to 60. I want to be a hundred. Yeah, let's do it.
Sarah: [01:14:07] Perfect. Perfect. Okay. We did see that was easy.
Beth: [01:14:15] Eric. Thanks for sitting down to talk with me in front of people. I feel like we talk all the time, but it's a different thing when we're in front of an audience. So thank you for being here.
Eric: [01:14:25] Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's totally a pleasure. And I love to hear you, especially on the show and for the little sidebars we have sometimes too.
It's, it's been super wonderful to do that. So thank you.
Beth: [01:14:37] Can you just introduce yourself to the audience?
Eric: [01:14:40] Yeah, absolutely. Uh, my name is Eric and I run a page on social media, that advocates for. Responsible citizens to, uh, stay armed and protected. Um, mostly around the subject of concealed carry. I try to focus on helping people have a good mindset around self defense and encouraging, uh, proper training so that we can have a, uh, Safer less dangerous society.
Beth: [01:15:15] So you reached out to us on Instagram, I think. And we started talking and I found myself really interested in having conversations with you because. One, I could tell that you actually listened to the show like more than once before emailing. Yes. Um, which doesn't often happen. And, um, and so, so I thought like here's somebody who I can tell like really strongly disagrees with where we are on gun regulation.
But is invested enough to talk with us about that in a way that enhances my understanding, meaning of how I feel of how other people feel, feel about this. And so it's really been a great conversation, um, over a pretty long period of time now. And I want to ask you, like when you first reached out kind of what your intention was and how you think our conversations have, have been unfolding.
How's this going for you?
Eric: [01:16:13] Sure. Absolutely. Well, I first caught wind of your show because a friend of mine at work at the time, I think this was just prior to the last election. A friend of mine at work had said, I think you would like these two ladies. One of them is right-leaning and one of them is left leaning.
He knew that I was really trying to understand, uh, other people's points of view a lot more broadly than, than I would if I just let myself hang out in my own social media bubble. Um, and so I started listening to your show and, uh, sure enough, you two have a different point of view on a lot of things than I do.
And sometimes I really appreciate it. And sometimes it drives me a little bananas and I think that's good. We should all listen to other people that think things that we don't sometimes as far as the first time we reached out, I don't really remember. It was probably something done related where there was something that was sad about.
A point of view that that I felt strongly about. And so I just kind of gingerly tried to reach out and said, Hey, I noticed you said this thing. Uh, you're probably much too busy to, to have a dialogue with me, but in case I'm wrong, here's what I think. And ever since then, you've been super gracious and we've had a, uh, a really nice conversation that goes, you know, intermittently here and there.
Um, So it's been wonderful.
Beth: [01:17:34] So I want to be really upfront with everybody listening, because I think sometimes when we're like, Hey, we're talking across some kind of deep dividing line and I don't really think of guns as a super partisan issue. Although I know that it is portrayed that way sometimes, but I know lots of gun owners who are Democrats as well as Republicans.
Um, but when I think when we're talking about like, Hey, we're, we're. We're talking across this chasm. There's an expectation that it gets tied up really neatly with a bow. And we say, here's all this compromise that we've reached and you, and I've been talking for a while in a good amount of depth and we have not reached any compromise.
Um, I think what has happened for me at least, and I'm really interested to hear what you think about this. I feel like I have distilled. Why I am where I am on the second amendment. And I feel like I have a much better understanding of the complexity of gun culture and the different perspectives people bring to their feelings.
It was about the second amendment, and I think that's really worthwhile. And I don't feel like I've learned everything I can learn about those topics. I also don't see myself. Changing my mind and thinking like, yes, we should have a largely unrestricted right. To bear arms in this country, but it's been very helpful and clarifying to me to speak with you about it.
Eric: [01:18:59] Yeah. And I've really appreciated that too. You know, something that I have learned about you over the course of our conversation is you are a very gentle soul. And I think that if everyone in the whole entire world where we're more like Beth in that way, as far as you being thoughtful and considerate of others and so many other things, I think we'd have a much different groove society.
Um, and I say that without reservation and Oh, you're totally welcome. And, um, unfortunately at least from my perspective, I think there are people out there that are willing to take advantage of others to a degree that sometimes includes. Violence and are disrespectful of other people's persons and personal Liberty to a degree that sometimes includes violence.
And unfortunately, I find myself often speaking with people who are very intelligent, that also have somehow decided or begun to believe that the ability to call nine 11 from their cell phone is all of the protection they need against someone who might decide to be a violent attacker. Against them. The problem is, is a lot of times when there's a determined, violent attacker, um, the police sadly play more of a role of a cleanup crew than anything else.
Um, and that's one of the reasons why I think it's a very important human and moral, right. For each of us to be able to decide if we're going to put the time and effort into, uh, being armed. And, uh, protecting our own persons and loved ones. So, um, I think maybe there are some difference in your temperament and my temperament.
That means that, uh, we might not ever agree, Beth, I don't ever see you strapping on a gun and saying. Right.
No,
Beth: [01:20:55] but like, I also think it's helped me to understand that that is first and foremost, how you see it, that it, that you see yourself first as a protector, because I look at guns and, and my bias toward them is to look at them and think often, and you have helped me understand that that probably more people.
Then not look at guns and first see defense.
Eric: [01:21:19] Yeah. And I think that's true. I think that's true. I think a lot of people are motivated. I'll tell you what. I grew up in a household where my dad owned several firearms and I was never really into them. I kind of thought it was the amount of tension that he poured into.
It was maybe a little excessive. Um, but I had an experience as a young man where someone, um, As a young man at my parents' house when it was just my self, my mother and my two very much younger sisters home, or someone broke into our house and was stealing things. Um, and that man, once he saw that there were people home and that my mother was the first person he saw, he started to go after her and.
Luckily, if I can use the word like that, I was able to without, with only a display of force, um, and without firing a single shot, I was able to access a gun that I knew my dad had hidden nearby in a, in a safe place. And just ask him politely to, um, put back our possessions and, and leaves the home. And so that was, that was a wonderful, uh, result from a very bad situation.
And I'm super grateful that it turned out the way that it did.
Beth: [01:22:32] Yeah. And you know, my husband has a similar experience in his background and I, and I think that he views this similarly, he would like us to have a gun in our home. And we talk about this quite a bit and something that our conversations, my conversations, both with him and with you, Eric have, have helped me think about, is like, I'm not sure you can talk about that.
The second amendment and about gun ownership with them out, really probing kind of your fundamental views on human nature and, and like what risks you're willing to take in life. And that gets to some pretty core. Tenants. I mean, I feel like the reason that you talk about me as a gentle soul is because we kind of keep circling around to this point that like, I just don't think if I had a gun, I could pull the trigger.
Like I think I would rather lose my life and take someone's in just about any circumstance. And I'm not saying that's admirable that's, that's just kind of where my life experiences that leads me and. I feel like where you're coming from is looking at yourself less as a self and more as sort of guardian of your family and people that you love and that owning a gun for you as an active generosity toward people like me, who couldn't pull the trigger.
Eric: [01:23:50] Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, the, um, Just, hopefully this isn't too much of an aside, but the concepts that I've built my page around is one, uh, that wasn't, uh, pioneered by myself. It was that actually popularized by, uh, Lieutenant Colonel, Dave Grossman. Who's an excellent, excellent man. A Christian, I believe just a very, um, Heartfelt person.
I really like his take on things. And he wrote a book that I read once upon a time, uh, recommended me, anybody, a friend called on combat. And he talks about the psychological and the physiological effects of combat on people. I read it. I was kind of a little bit outside the sphere of when I read it. So I was interested, friends recommendations and he talks about how in the world, there's three types of people.
Um, the sheep are the gentle people who are nice in a federal one. We're more like that we'd have a better world because people, these kinds of people don't want to be violent to anyone. He talks. Some people are wolves and will gladly take advantage of others, including, uh, using violence. And then other people are sheep docks, which are those who are willing to, uh, protect others, even if it means, uh, doing so violently against those that, you know, that.
Hurt you unwarranted me. And so I really liked that concept and that's kind of what I think of myself as. Um, another thing I wanted to add on to what you said is I hear this from a lot of people that they're really worried about the risks. That come with, you know, you're not so interested in owning a firearm, but your husband is, I'm pretty sure that most years, the total amount of firearm deaths, and we can fight some facts from the FBI and from other things, if we need to, in the show notes, firearm deaths are more or less roughly around the same amount of deaths that are caused by vehicle crashes every year.
And it was gun. Usually when somebody dies. There's very few accidental deaths. Usually when somebody dies, it's intentional with vehicles when somebody dies, um, it's almost always accidental. So I think that if you own a vehicle and drive around it with your family statistics, show that we're just about as likely to have a death in your car than we are as we are with the firearm.
So I think if we can kind of measure those risks together and say, are guns really as scary as, as I feel like they are. I think that's a really good way to take the perspective and maybe, uh, put our minds at ease a little bit.
Beth: [01:26:26] Yeah. And you know, it's, it's interesting that you bring up that comparison because I think my experience with a vehicle crash is.
Informs substantially how I feel about guns and it's, this is a substantial component of why that risk is unaccepted the ball to me, because, you know, having been part of an accident where there was a fatality. There is nothing that I did in that day of driving that was worth this stranger's life to me and all of the grief and heartache, it caused for his family and the trauma that it's caused in my life.
There's just nothing about that. That makes that risk acceptable. To me. I still drive a car because I live in an area where I feel like I have to, to live my life. Uh, but I would happily. Being a place where I never drove a car again, if I could eliminate that risk because is I understand the statistics of it, but I also feel like when it happens, it is so unacceptable and it feels so unnecessary to me.
So I want to like zoom out for a second and say, conceptually, as we talk about how we have these conversations, I think it's been really helpful. And healthy to have this level of discussion with you, because sometimes when we're trying to talk with people about this stuff, we like go immediately to the policy.
And it's never like really about the policy as much as it is starting with that foundation of what are the emotions and the life experiences and just the kind of orientation you bring to the subject. And so I have verbalized in my conversations with you more than I think anywhere else, like what my orientation is and understanding yours has helped me a little better understand where you come out on policy.
Um, So I want to pause there and let you react to that before I like take us into policy.
Eric: [01:28:17] Well, yeah, no, uh, I, I, you and I told a very different on, on policy on that. And I really like speaking about that. I remember listening to one of your episodes after you and I had had a conversation. You said I speak to this guy sometimes, and he's.
He's a big second amendment advocate or however you put it. And he said, and pretty much all of the policies that I want to enact either says it would be ineffective or unconstitutional, or I forget what the third one you gave. But I was like, yeah, that's a pretty fair, that's a pretty fair assessment.
But talk about that.
Beth: [01:28:51] The thing that, um, that I have learned about you with policy is that because you so value this right. I think there is not a restriction on the right, that strikes you as anything other than arbitrary. Is that fair? Um,
Eric: [01:29:10] maybe there, there are some very few restrictions that strike me as not arbitrary, for example.
Um, I don't think violent criminals should have guns. I think their access should be as restricted as, as possible as we know, it's not always very possible. And sometimes you're banging your head against the wall, trying to figure out how to make policies act, uh, have the result that you, that you put them in place for.
Um, but other than that, um, there's not a lot of restrictions, but I think people's tab. When it comes to their constitutional, their natural given constitutionally affirmed right. To defend themselves. Yes, you correct.
Beth: [01:29:48] So when you think violent criminal, I want to talk for a second about red flag laws and domestic violence.
And what you think about that? Red
Eric: [01:29:59] flag laws. Can we just define what we mean when we say red flag laws?
Beth: [01:30:05] Yeah. So, you know, I'm thinking specifically of Senator interest in closing the boyfriend loophole and this idea that domestic violence can happen between people who are not married and there still be a need based on some kind of domestic.
Court order to flag someone as having the potential to do violence
Eric: [01:30:31] and this limits their ability to purchase the firearm. So are we talking about two people in our relationship? Uh, they're not married, just boyfriend, girlfriend kind of thing. And he gets violent with her. I'm going to put it in that direction.
Cause it's almost always the male who's the aggressor. Right? Um, he gets violent with her shove, his. Uh, rights to own a firearm or purchase when he restricted it.
Beth: [01:30:55] That's my question.
Eric: [01:30:57] Yeah. Well, once he's committed a violent act, we have the due process in place to say, you have done this bad thing, therefore.
Lose your rights.
Beth: [01:31:07] And so sometimes when he commits that violent act, he doesn't get convicted of a crime. He gets a restraining order or something entered or a do not contact order. Does that matter to you?
Eric: [01:31:20] Um, yeah, that matters to me. That matters. Uh, do we have, uh, a good outcome situation like that through how our legal system works?
Beth: [01:31:32] Well, I mean, not always, like, I mean, I wonder if that matters in terms of the constitutional right restriction. I mean, there, there are lots of reasons that you end up not getting a criminal conviction. In a, in a case like that, including that the victim decides not to press charges, but we still know that we have a person with propensity toward violence.
And I guess that's what I'm getting at. Like how clear, because this comes up all the time, going back to the values side that your, your view of the world is like sheep, sheep, dog, Wolf. I always want to add a category. Um, Because I don't feel like there are that many people who are clearly wolves, but I feel like there are a lot of people who, um, could be either sheep or sheep, dog, but have been left behind in so many ways.
Um, that and their life feels so precarious. You know, that, that they're there. They are brought to acts of violence that they otherwise would not commit. So, I mean, that's, I think that's where I'm going with this. Like, I always struggle when you and I are talking with categorically, defining people as violent.
And at the same time, I agree with you that once we know a person has capacity to, to illegally do violence, we need to exercise care and allowing them to arm themselves. So I, I just struggle with diff like finding the categories, you know what I mean?
Eric: [01:32:53] And it is a hard category to define because if we, if we do it wrong, we're going to infringe upon the rights of a lot of people who otherwise would have never caused any, any violence.
Um, and if we do it wrong on the opposite side of the spectrum, we're going to allow easy access to people who are very likely to do violence. The thing that I like to compare this to in my mind are other rights that we have the right to freedom of speech is one that I go to under what circumstances.
We say to someone you cannot participate in our political system. The founders put freedom of speech right up there with the right to keep and bear arms, because they knew they were both so, so important. So I lean a lot on due process and there's definitely a lot that happens in our justice system that maybe needs to be fixed.
Um, but at this point I would really hate. To see people be restricted, uh, with their rights to protect themselves, because there's a lack of, because some red flag law gets passed, but provides a lack of due process that results in some way, right. Rights being just taken away. Um, I think that if perhaps there are situations where someone has exhibited.
Really violent behaviors towards others. Maybe we can put them on a temporary hold, maybe legislation like that, wouldn't be completely inappropriate, but there needs to be some due process there. I understand a little bit about like some no fly restrictions can be very, just like, Oh, you're on the list.
We can't tell you why good luck getting yourself off the list. Right. There's not a lot of due process. And I feel like that's a big problem. And I would hate to see. Lack of due process enter into any other phase in life, you know, it's really important to you guys that everyone vote, right?
Beth: [01:34:42] Yes. It's very important to me that, I'm sorry.
I don't know if you're like just taking a breath. Yes. It's very important to me that everyone vote.
Eric: [01:34:49] Yeah. It's very important that everyone votes. Um, and I think that even sometimes some people that have done really horrible things in their life, um, they should have the right to vote. Restorative at some point, if we can be reasonably sure that they're past that point in their life where they're doing terrible things, um, I would hate to see somebody say, well, you have to take this test before you can vote.
Although I do want voters to be informed, but I'd hate to see them say, you have to take this test before you can vote. And if the panel decides you're unfit to vote, You don't get to cast your ballot. I see gun ownership in much that
Beth: [01:35:23] say why. So I want to just call out, like, as an example here, that I always find it more helpful when we're having these policy conversations to do what we're doing now, which is, is not really like overloading each other with like, Here's what I know about the history of the second amendment or here's what I know about the facts and the stats.
I find it more fruitful in our conversations to do this just like personal, back and forth, where neither of us is trying to persuade the other one. And we're not putting every card on the table that we have about like, here's why I'm right. But. There is more of a sense of just help me understand where you are.
Let's try to fill in as many gaps as possible here. Now I know that I frustrate you because I leave a lot of gaps in our conversation. You want to talk about that for a second? When we think about what doesn't work well in our chats, I feel like I frustrate you sometimes because I am not willing to like nail down certain specifics.
I want to own up to that, Eric.
Eric: [01:36:22] Well, no, I don't know that so much. You as usually when we're talking. Um, I'm much more long winded and less concise than you. The listeners will possibly have noticed that by now. Um, and so sometimes I, I feel like I just probably include too much in what I say, and then you don't get to it all and you respond.
So I'm not, I'm not really sure that I get frustrated with you in that regard. More that I just get frustrated with myself for being so long winded.
Beth: [01:36:46] Well, I do also feel like sometimes you're looking for me to articulate more clarity around what I think the second amendment should mean. Than I than I will.
And I think that's a fair ask on your part. And, and the reason bring this up for purposes of like a broader audience is to say, like, there are things that I just am genuinely conflicted about because I am persuaded that it's fine for. For you to have a gun in your house and, and for us to have a gun in our house, if that's where we landed as a family, um, and for most people to have a gun in their houses, if that's where they wanted to be in terms of personal protection.
Um, but I don't think it's fine to have the sheer volume of guns walking around in this country that we have. And I worry about our attitude around violence in the country, and I worry that we're very dismissive of these incredibly painful, painful mass shootings and unwilling to, to explore all of the reasons that they occur, because.
If we're, if we're people who say like, yes, everyone has a right to have a gun, then we just say, well, like, look, it's, that's so rare, honestly, without kind of grappling with the hard, the magnitude of it. And so I, I do feel a lot of conflict about. How do we tackle these issues in a principled way? I don't want to over criminalize, like I think one place that you and I do have a lot of commonality of viewpoint is in a more libertarian perspective on allowing people to have freedom from state overreach.
So I struggle and I can't crisply tell you what I think the second amendment ought to mean. And I, and I think that's. Hard sometimes. And it's a fair ask on your part for me to do that. And I'm sure it's frustrating that I don't,
Eric: [01:38:38] well, you know what? We don't have all the answers. And I think the people that think they have all the answers are unfortunately deceiving ourselves.
So, um, that's okay. That we don't always feel like we know all the answers to everything I want to touch on something you said though, specifically, you said that one of your concerns is the sheer number of guns we have in our country.
Beth: [01:38:57] Yeah. I'm concerned about that. I mean, it's a lot, right. We have a lot of guns in this County.
Eric: [01:39:02] Yeah, we do. Yeah. It's true. It's true. Um, I want to ask you, I wanna make a statement and see if you kind of agree with the statement. Um, even very proficient shooters are only able to accurately operate. One single firearm at a time.
Beth: [01:39:20] I accept that as true. I have no idea. It makes sense to me. I accept. I defer to your expertise on that.
My friend.
Eric: [01:39:29] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes you'll see these guys that are like the old Western cowboy revolver guys that can shoot two of them. But, but those are, you never see that in real life, you don't see people in the military or anything in real life situations or that. So yeah, we can say that's true.
I see it in much the same way as. Somebody might see a pair of shoes or a vehicle. How many cars can you drive? Do you really need that many cars? Jay Leno has. How many cars does he really need that many who cares whether or not he needs that many. This is America. We're free to have as many as we want.
Right? You can only drive one car at a time. So if I have 12 cars parked in my big garage or one car, I guess I don't really understand why that's anyone's business. How do you feel about that analogy?
Beth: [01:40:17] I get it. And I also think that it, um, where I always struggle with, with that kind of pushback from you is just, it feels deliberately detached from the fact that guns have like a purpose, one.
And, and that purpose is to do violence and vehicles do violence, but that is not their singular purpose. And so to me, when I, when I think about the risks again and the volume. I struggle with accepting that argument just on its face, because I feel like, why do you need so many things that have this single purpose to do violence, especially if, if we're purely having them as a protective measure, why.
Why so many when there is, when there is the potential for an accidental shooting, when there is so much concern about suicide and people's access to what, like, I just, I look at that and think, yeah, but like where's the upside of having all of those guns?
Eric: [01:41:26] Well, well, that's true. Um, and I can understand your concern there.
We already kind of touched on this a little bit where, um, vehicles have many purposes. Guns, one purpose, whether it's offense or defense is to do violence. You're right. Um, but yet we have very similar death rates in the United States every year between, uh, gun deaths and vehicle death. So I don't know, um, there's a lot of ways to get around town, but if you need to defend yourself the very best tool for the job.
He has a gun and there are some instances in which no other tool will do the job as well as a gun. A knife can be very, very deadly. In fact, in the United States every year, um, there are more deaths. This is per the FBI's website by knives than there are by all different kinds of firearms together, hand guns, rifles, shotguns, et cetera.
Right. A nicest, plenty deadly. But if someone comes at you with a knife, The best way you can be safe in a situation like that is to respond with a gun. So I think the moral fabric of again, for this comes to me down to me as a gun is the only tool for the job when no other tool will do the job. And I feel like there's a lot of moral strength in that.
Beth: [01:42:49] I get that. I just don't understand why you need more than one. Then, you know, if it's that effective and you can only handle one at a time, like why, why do we have well, and, and, you know, A gun is pretty effective, even if it's not like. A gun that fires exceptionally fast, or that has a silencer on it, like theirs.
And I, and I want to say to you, I want to acknowledge that that sportsmanship around guns is a thing don't, don't email me. I understand that. Um, but again, it takes me to like,
Eric: [01:43:19] don't ask me
Beth: [01:43:21] why, why the volume, what, when along that moral argument, why the volume, you know, and why the range. Because you, you don't like, we should say you don't like restrictions around specific categories of firearms because they seem arbitrary.
Is that a fair summary of your position?
Eric: [01:43:40] Oh, absolutely. I see a lot of things. Um, and that's, if you decide to edit this part out, Joe Biden said he wanted to take away everyone's AR fourteens. There is no such gun. It's an AR 15. And I see a lot of. People making big statements about this, that show by the kinds of words that they use.
A lot of ignorance around the topic. I don't know if you've ever watched a movie with lawyers doing lawyer things in them and you go, Oh my goodness. It's not like that.
Beth: [01:44:09] For sure. They don't even do what your things are. Movies ever. Yeah.
Eric: [01:44:14] Exactly how much paperwork do you see in movies? Not that much. Um, and as far as your question towards, um, how many guns does somebody need in their home?
If I was being strictly someone who was saying, I'm going to buy as many firearms as I need to feel safe in my home and none else, I think the answer to your question there, um, is to consider the layout of your home. And to consider if something, if there's going to be a break in. Where can these break-ins occur and where
can I get a firearm with the best and with, you know, the fastest access that's stored in a safe place in order to protect myself, if you're in your office upstairs.
And somebody breaks in downstairs. You'd better have a firearm within easy access between point a and point B. So I think the architecture and layout of your house is probably the primary concern. If we're saying what's the minimum number of guns, I need to be safe in my own house.
Beth: [01:45:15] Well, I think that's fair.
I think that's a very fair response and that, that will differ for people. And so there's some variability. I just, I still am Eric. I'm just like, why do people need silencers and why do people need AR 15? And why do we increase this risk? But, but this is the thing that I've really learned in our conversations.
That my assessment of the risk is very different than yours. And my assessment of the benefit is exceptionally different than yours, because all I see on the other end of, of using a weapon is, is the trauma and of it. And, and not that protective. And, and so that has really been extraordinarily clarifying for me, even if it hasn't led me to a clear understanding of what I think.
Second amendment policy to look like.
Eric: [01:46:06] And, and I feel that too. Let me just say that. I realized that the cheeseburger that I had for lunch today is way more detrimental is way more likely to end my life than a violent attacker is breaking into my home. Right. We can all read the numbers and statistics.
And I know that, um, I put a lot of focus into something that's a very low probability. Although I feel like one of the beautiful things about firearms is the understanding. How they work and the responsibility behind them. I feel like it's very empowering to a lot of people. That's kind of the message I try to get across on my page is to be empowered by that and to learn first and foremost, that we're here as protectors and to respect others, there are a lot of people.
You and I have discussed that strap on a gun and wear a Punisher skull t-shirt and they try really to intimidate others. I don't think that's the appropriate mindset to have.
Beth: [01:47:01] I think part of what works in our conversations is like that, that we both will acknowledge. Facts like that. Right? Well, like I think we both are pretty good at acknowledging, like here's a, here's where this kind of falls apart for me or here's someone who you might lump with me.
That's not a great representative of my argument. Um, the other thing I want to just touch on, like really briefly is how. We have not, are, are intention in our discussions has been to talk about guns, but it's like impossible to confine the discussion, um, to guns, not just in terms of like our values and life experiences with guns, but, but it just takes us into lots of other areas of politics and faith and family and life.
And that to me is, is a reason. To keep coming back for these conversations. Cause I think a lot of people that write to us about talking politics just view it as like an endless cycle of banging their head against a wall. And it doesn't feel like that to me at all. Well, thank you.
Eric: [01:48:12] I agree. I'm glad that we were able to keep our conversation nuanced enough to continue to be interesting.
And I think we've learned a lot about each another and about, um, other Americans like us over the course of our conversation. We definitely need a lot more unity and understanding in this country. Um, So I feel like you and I have at least between the two of us helping increase our level of being able to do that.
So I really appreciate that.
Beth: [01:48:35] What advice would you leave people with if they want to, like, if, if they are a person like me who wants to talk to a person who feels like you or vice versa,
Eric: [01:48:45] um, what advice would I leave? People who are looking to get into, uh, firearms? Um, I would say that you can get a lot of opinions out there.
From a lot of people that have very different perspectives on the purpose of firearms and how we should behave as, as gun owners. I think ultimately, uh, people should engage with a crowd that fits their own personal moral beliefs about the use of deadly force. Um, I feel like this is at heart, a moral issue about a right to protect oneself in one family, one family, when no other tools will do the job.
So I hope that just like, uh, Beth you've expressed many times that after joining the democratic party, there are a lot of people, um, maybe far to the left of you that you don't quite understand, but you're still happy to be a part of that community. Right. Um, I hope that people that are looking into the second amendment community can kind of filter out the noise of the people that are very, very far in a different direction than them.
And kind of focus on the very good people who will teach them appropriately how to responsibly exercise that. Right.
Beth: [01:50:03] And if you are in that community and you're talking with someone like me, whose primary concern is bringing down the level of violence in the country and, and. Very open to restricting gun rights in order to do that.
What would you say to people who are, um, entering into that discussion from your perspective about how to like deal with me?
Eric: [01:50:27] I think it comes down to people's values. Ultimately you have, um, you and I are able to talk very well about this because we try to really understand each other's values. And at the end of the day, um, I think that, you know, that.
I'm not going to really, really try to push you to go buy a gun. Although sometimes I do want to message you Beth and say, have you, uh, have you let your husband go buy that gun yet? You guys decided to buy the gun yet, but I don't do that. Um, I think it comes down to values and just understanding that, um, As humans, one of our very most important civil rights is the ability to protect oneself.
And I think a lot of people that are very serious gun owners take that perspective. Hopefully your listeners that might be very interested in restricting access to guns can kind of see that from our conversation.
Beth: [01:51:20] Yeah. I appreciate that. And I, I appreciate the discussions that we have and thanks for coming on to, to share a little bit with everybody else.
Eric: [01:51:28] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Beth.
Sarah: [01:51:38] Thank you so much to Elizabeth and Eric for coming on here and being vulnerable and sharing, you know, their journeys on these tough conversations and inside of our relationships with them, it was really, really lovely. And I'm so thankful that they were willing to do that.
Beth: [01:51:54] Sarah what's on your mind outside of politics?
Sarah: [01:51:56] Well, I don't want to confess this cause I think it's embarrassing on a certain level and on another level, I'm just so happy to have my life back, but I definitely watched the entirety of season six of Schitt's Creek yesterday, like in one day, it's the second day in, less than a week that I stayed up till 1230 watching the show because I love it so much.
I wanted to know what happened and I just couldn't stop. And I regret nothing. Cause now I can have my life back. I was happy to share it with the roses, but so there was a lot of time that I was spending on Netflix, which I don't usually do, but I'm so, it was such a delight. The series finale was so lovely and now hopefully I will have something else to talk about because I realized the last few times, including a nightly nuance or two I've been like, well, we'll just have to talk about Schitt's Creek cause it's literally what I'm doing. I'm doing with every moment of my free time.
Beth: [01:52:52] So you're not taking the, treat it like a fine chocolate approach.
Sarah: [01:52:58] More like finish off the entire pint of ice cream in one sitting. That's what I. That's what I did.
Beth: [01:53:05] Well, I watched, I think four episodes from season six, yesterday, which I thought was pretty excessive.
Sarah: [01:53:11] Try six hours. I'm like, I just, I did it and I'm a little bit ashamed, but also just so happy to be done.
Beth: [01:53:20] I was cooking Chad's birthday dinner yesterday, and I had it on my iPad while I was in the kitchen working and it. It brought me a lot of joy cooking. Brought me a lot of joy. Chad's birthday brings me a lot of joy, although I feel bad because here's what happened, last year Chad turned 40 while we were speaking at Evolving Faith and I did a poor job celebrating him. He was on a plane by himself for most of his 40th birthday, which is not how it should be. No. So I have been thinking 41 is going to be my big do over and then came a pandemic and it's really difficult to have like a big birthday do over in the midst of COVID-19.
So I tried to cook him a very nice meal. We had some neighbors over last night who have really been in our sort of bubble throughout this whole thing. Our kids play together every day and it was lovely and nice. My favorite part was that I, for the first time plaited bread.
Elizabeth: [01:54:12] Yeah, it was none until I
Sarah: [01:54:13] sent a picture.
Yes. And I just want to say, you said I tried to cook a very nice meal. I received the pictures and I'm, I've heard the praise from your neighbors. So I'm confident you actually succeeded in cooking a very nice meal.
Beth: [01:54:25] I think so. I really enjoyed working on the spread. I've been working on my bread skills for a couple of years now, and it was so funny because I was following this recipe that gets to cut it into six pieces, roll each piece into.
30 centimeter tube, bring the ends together and then plat the bread. And I was like, Hmm. I'm good. I guess I'm gonna approach this like hair because I don't know another way. And so I did, and it turned out really nicely. And then Chad got home and saw it sitting on the oven and he was like, wow, your plat looks amazing.
Like all these years of watching the great British baking show have totally paid off. He didn't know that word. Complimenting my cooking as my love language. This is what I tell you when somebody is just like, Oh my gosh, that was delicious. I'm like, well, I feel affirmed and good and happy and we can all be done now.
So it really worked out well, but I made like this garlic Parmesan knotted bread that was just delicious. And, and I thought it was beautiful too. Thank you for saying so.
Sarah: [01:55:23] Well, I'm about to fire up my bread making again, you know, I bought like a seven pound bag of bread flour in like March or April during the like sort of peak
baking pandemic fever, but then I'm not, look, I'm not baking in the summer. It's too hot. I know it's good for the starter and that like nice humid temperatures, help the bread rise. I get all that. And also I'm not turning my oven on to 400 degrees when it's 95 and humid outside. I'm just not doing it. But I love the idea of firing it back up now during the fall and winter months.
So I'm going to need that recipe because I think I'm going and you guys as put it in the show notes, cause you know, people are going to ask for it cause I'm ready to, I'm ready to start baking again for sure.
Beth: [01:56:02] I really struggled this weekend with everything with my mom and I scrubbed my house very significantly all day, Saturday, and then all day Sunday I cooked and those two things gave me a little bit more of a sense of control in the universe, which is feeling it was helpful. It was helpful.
Sarah: [01:56:21] Well, we all have to find our ways, like, you know, sometimes when I get overwhelmed, I think that's why I've been binge watching along with much of America is it just gets so intense inside of my own head. I need to, I need to go somewhere different. I need to just go somewhere different. So I spent a lot of time at Schitt's Creek. That's where I went.
Beth: [01:56:35] Yeah. Sometimes it's the right thing to do. We hope that you all are finding this places and those moments of softness or control or whatever it is that you need. We'll be back here Friday with Senator Elizabeth Warren, just a little note there until then keep it nuanced, y'all.