Processing the Presidential Debate Debacle

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We share our reactions to the first presidential debate which was....um...messy, to say the least. We talk about why we think it went down the way it did, the moments that stood out to us, what it can tell us about the state of the race, and what is giving us hope in the face of it all.

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Episode Resources

Transcript

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. We are here. We are surviving. We are post debate, even though it was so traumatizing. It feels like it happened mere moments ago, but it didn't, we've got one under our belt and we're going to process that here with you today. And of course we will have a vice presidential debate next week where we will also be on Instagram live during the debate.

And that is much more respectful of our recording schedule. So we'll be recording on Thursday and processing that next week. We're just happy that y'all are hanging in with us, although so many of you send us messages and are like so glad you're watching so I don't have to. That's okay. That's okay.

We love y'all enough to do this. We love y'all enough to take the hits and witness the trauma and then come here to process it with all of you. 

Beth: [00:00:48] You know, I was thinking about who I want to be in this moment, because I think that the debates kick off the stage of the campaign that really brings out the worst in all of us or worse doesn't even mean like aggressor, although that, that's happened for lots and lots of people, but I think it also just brings out all this stress, all this stuff that we've been holding on, especially this year when we've been holding onto so much stuff. And so I kind of set an intention for myself to be as reflective as possible throughout the rest of the campaign.

And what that brought up for me with this debate was the clearest understanding of my own privilege that I've ever had. Because this truly is the first time I've ever watched a presidential debate with an issue that directly is harming my family right now. I've never watched a debate through that lens.

Here is an issue that's directly harming my family right now. And I just thought about all the people I love for whom that has never been true, who've never been able to watch a debate without an issue directly harming them in their family right now. And I feel like I owe everyone who's had that experience an apology because voting has been such a theoretical kind of academic exercise for me for most of my life.

Because I am white, because I am middle-class, because I have had every advantage in life in a number of ways and I just am really sitting with that in a hard way right now. And I'm grateful for that experience, even though I wish very much that there was not an issue directly harming my family right now.

Sarah: [00:02:33] Yeah. I think, you know, the truth of the matter is when it comes to COVID-19, I feel like it's harming all of us. Like the impact is real in a way for so many Americans, you know, it's affecting our entire country whether you agree with the risk assessment of COVID, whether you have friends and family members who think it's all a hoax.

 It doesn't matter. It's changed their lives. Right. It's changed all of our lives. And, you know, I think the intensity, the high stakes of that situation regarding school and the economy, you know, I think the recession felt really real, but still again, depending on your privilege and resources, not directly affected all of us the same way that COVID-19 is.

And I think it did it, his lens, some. Intensity to our, I don't know, I got an election that didn't need any more intensity. That's for dang sure. 

Beth: [00:03:33] That is for dang sure. Yeah. I I've gotten so many messages from people that are like, I'm so grateful that you've been so open about your mom's health and to give you a tiny update there, it's been a really hard couple of days.

Her trajectory continues to be good. This is going to be a very slow process. Her lungs are so damaged that they're causing her a lot of pain in her back and shoulders, her temperature is back up. And so watching that fever has become a high priority. There's something new all the time. She's had a ton of nausea and actual sickness.

I don't know if that's from the medicine or if it's part of COVID, they've told her it could be a symptom. Some people get that with COVID-19. It's really rough and she's sitting there. We are almost two weeks out from when she went into the hospital by herself still. She hasn't seen anyone. She's not gotten to hold my dad's hand, you know, and that's awful.

And the way in which COVID-19 is present for all of us is different because I'm so grateful that we're here instead of where 206,000 plus families have been with this. And it really puts a different lens on this. And I think I have especially been at fault trying to be that person who keeps kind of a cool distance from politics, uh, even with what we do, I try to keep, you know, a cool head and be very common.

That's important to me is as part of my personality, but it's really been unfair in the way that I've assessed people with a more direct interest in the issues at stake, and in this election, that is so many people. In addition to the people for whom it's always been true. If you are, or love someone who is gay or transgender, if you have any experience with poverty or immigration, if you are a Black or a Brown person in this country, I mean, it's just, it's just really hitting me hard. And I'm glad that it's hitting me hard because I needed, I needed this wake up call. I just, I wish I could have gotten it a different way. 

Sarah: [00:05:36] Well, and let's be real. I mean, I think one of the biggest takeaways from this election is not just that the results will impact all of our daily lives because of the, we are living through a global pandemic, but because the president of the United States very clearly articulated during the debate that he does not believe that he will win the popular vote. 

That's a really fair assessment because he has been behind in the polls and consistently from the beginning that he, I don't think either based on internal polling or what people are telling him, believes that he will even went under the electoral college.

And so he will contest the election, refuse to concede in order to take it to either the House of Representatives or the Supreme Court, where he believes that he could win. He articulated that strategy very clearly during the debate. Oh. And that he wants his followers, including far white wing militia groups to intimidate people at the polls in order to suppress the vote and to wreak chaos.

So therefore throwing the process to either the house of representatives to the end of the Supreme court. And, you know, I feel like as a voter, as a citizen, Those are pretty high stakes. I think all of us now feel that investment in the process. And I had an aha moment yesterday. I cried like four times about the debate yesterday.

It's fine. And the election, I already cried this morning that, you know, talking with a lot of our friends, watching Shauna Niequist, who's a really popular Christian writer and influencer publicly say she didn't vote for Donald Trump in 2016. She will not vote for him this time and watching the response. I think in the same way that I had like a come to Jesus with, Oh, there are people in this country who believe you should own as many and whatever guns that you want.

Period. I think that's a radical position, but there are lots of people who hold it. I think there are people in this country who would choose to live in a dictatorship that Outlaws and punishes abortion over a democracy that allows abortion. Like that issue has taken on such an intensity for those people and their positions on it are so radical.

That's what that is. That is a radical position that they would walk away from democracy in order to outlaw abortion. 

Beth: [00:08:02] I think it's good to plainly put that question to people. We're getting so many messages that are like, I don't know how to have these conversations. I want to, I'm willing, when I start, they don't go well.

And I think it's, it's good to ask really plain direct questions in advance of this election. Oh, you don't like him, but you like his policy. What policy. No, I need to hear it more specifically than he cares about abortion. What policy? The appointment of judges. Okay. He's done that. Like, that's not going to go on forever.

These are lifetime appointments that he's put really young people in those seats. So what is it in the next four years that you think he's going to do around abortion that's important? Okay. Tell me about whether you think that his potential appointment of more pro-life judges is worth risking a democratic election.

Does that make sense to you? Is that how you would prioritize these issues? Would you be willing to live in a dictatorship with a social prescription that matches your moral views versus a country where you have to contend with the moral views of other people? I mean, not to be ugly or mean, but to have a real conversation.

I think the problem, you know, this reflection that I'm sharing about myself has just helped me understand how for lots and lots of us elections have always been an academic exercise. Yep. And I think it's good to bring some of our law school Socratic method training to asking people to get real about the consequences of this election.

Do you feel good about voting for a person who wants people to go to the polls and intimidate voters? He's asking for that, is that acceptable in your point of view? Well, I don't want to hear about the left. I want to hear about the present threat to the election process that you think is presented on the other side if you think there is one, like let's, let's get real about what we're talking about. 

Sarah: [00:09:57] Yeah. Because we're not talking about an academic exercise. We're talking about a democratic exercise. And I think the other sort of realization I had, because the intensity is increasing and I think, you know, all the input in the emotion, particularly through the debate, illuminated some things for me.

And I think what I realized is that often our friends and family here as criticized president Trump and because of his manipulation of his own platform, what they believe we are asking them to do is to say: by criticizing Donald Trump or even better by not to voting for Donald Trump, what we are asking you to do is become a Democrat, sign on to every democratic policy that has ever existed or will ever exist.

 Say you agree with everything a democratic politician has ever done say you agree with every position of any protest associated or protest movement associated with the democratic party because of the polarization and the partisanship.

And because of the way Donald Trump has manipulated that. We say he is dangerous. He is cruel. He is mean and hateful. They hear, okay, well now I'm a Democrat and I have to be a Democrat and I have to reject everything I've ever thought and everything I've ever identified with and sign on and condone all these things that scare me.

And literally no one is asking them to do that. Like especially friends and family members. How it becomes criticism of him is an all out embracing of the democratic party is a false dichotomy. That is a false choice presented to no one you can vote against Donald Trump, never vote for a Democrat again, as long as you live, that is a thing.

People can and will do. I just, I think that's another thing it's like, we're talking around this and we needed to really clearly articulate, Hey, when I'm saying, I want you to see what a threat he is to our democratic process. I'm not asking you to change your party identification. 

Beth: [00:12:13] Yeah. And I'm not talking about abortion and gun rights.

I am talking about having an election. I'm talking about a department of justice that prosecutes people because they committed crime. And that releases information because it's in the public interest, not a department of justice that works in favor of a president. When I am saying, I think you need to vote for Joe Biden this time, I'm not endorsing Joe Biden. I'm saying you need to vote against Donald Trump. 

And I do think that we're all having really different conversations, especially in the heat of a debate where our model is to just personally bash. And I will say, I think for the first few minutes of the debate, I was not impressed with how Joe Biden handled himself, but I hung in for all 90 and it changed really significantly as the debate went on and he kind of got his feet under him and got oriented in what is a debate that I think even people close to the president did not anticipate eight would be so chaotic and rowdy.

 You know, I was reading that the Trump team is really angry with Chris Christie who helped prepare Trump for the debate, for saying on air, I think he was a commentator on ABC, he thought the president needed to go a little easier and they felt so betrayed by that because he had agreed that Trump's style needed to be aggressive. I think Trump took this to a level that even his people were surprised by.

And so of course, Joe Biden was surprised by it. As he got oriented, he stopped engaging Donald Trump the man. He stopped engaging the office of the president and started just talking to the American people. And that's what I thought really worked about the debate. Listen, I'm not looking for a perfect human being to be in this office.

There isn't one that exists, but I am looking for someone with some emotional maturity who can calibrate, who can just to the circumstances, calm down and lock in on a path that is about something other than himself.

Sarah: [00:14:18] Well, I'm also looking for someone who does not embrace white supremacists and, or shred our democratic norms, including the peaceful transfer of power. These are non negotiables for me. And what really bothers me about the way this like criticism came out is, Oh, well, you know, I feel this undercurrent of, well, you think Joe, Biden's perfect.

And I just want to be like, what internet are you reading? I read article after article from what other people would identify as quote unquote left-leaning news sources, 

Beth: [00:14:47] radical left 

Sarah: [00:14:48] leaning

radical, like, Oh, I don't know, the New York times that are saying he's not always been. I mean, I read a beautiful piece in the Atlantic about this really illuminating moment where Joe Biden was talking about Bo and Donald Trump attacked Hunter.

And he took that moment to like, look into the camera and say, I'm still proud of Hunter. Like didn't, you know, the son that has to carry all this weight, that's struggled with addiction and said he has an addiction. He faced it, worked on it and yeah. Even in that article that was saying like, look at this beautiful humanity displayed by this father and how starkly it stands in contrast to how Donald Trump thinks of his own children. 

He said, the writer said he's a bad politician. He's supported. He's like not great in debates. He supported policies in his past and his long Senate career that were awful. Like this article that was like, Look at this beautiful humanity.

And also man, Joe Biden has issues. Like I just, but the refusal of even Senate Republicans to still say upfront that on the record, like there's all this background. Oh, the GOP operatives that didn't want to be named, but they won't come out and say he did terrible. Like he did terrible. That was awful. He shouldn't have treated him that way.

Like I don't see the same treatment on the both sides. I don't see this idea of like, Oh, Democrats never criticize Obama or Biden or anybody on their side. And so we're not gonna do on our side. Like to me, that is just a false reality that I see no reflection of when I listened to left-leaning journalists at all.

Beth: [00:16:21] If you are a new listener, welcome, we're glad that you're here. We talked a lot during the impeachment hearings about the Hunter Biden issue and this sense that he capitalized personally on Joe Biden's position in government and how yes, that makes me really uncomfortable. And also. There's a lot of that happening and we don't have good rules around it.

And what we need right now are good rules around that. And that's something that's gonna take some study and it's going to take members of Congress, who aren't thinking about Hunter Biden or Ivanka Trump, but who are thinking about their own family members and the large universe of people who trade in some way on access to it.

Power. It's a really large universe. So it's not that we think there is just nothing at all wrong or uncomfortable or awkward or icky about Hunter Biden's service on the board of a Ukrainian energy company while his father is the vice presiden. The choice that I was impressed with in the debate, and I don't think I've said this anywhere yet, but it's really been sticking with, with me, is that Joe Biden could have said you want to talk about children trading on their access to power?

 Because it's not even close. If you think about how much money the Trump children have made because of their access to Donald Trump directly from the government, not just indirectly through a variety of channels that have been well-documented by other outlets, but he chose not to do that.

You know, he could have said you're going to attack my family, I'll attack yours right back. And he didn't and there was something big in that. And that's the kind of moral filter that matters to me. It matters to me that it's okay for me to let Jane and Ellen watched Joe Biden speak. And it's not okay for me to let them watch Donald Trump speak.

I mean, Jane would have in 30 seconds flat called out Donald Trump as a bully on the stage. I want as a 39 year old to have the clarity of a nine year old watching that behavior. 

Sarah: [00:18:22] Well, I will say that my 11 year old Griffin watched with me and he immediately was like, why don't they have a mute button, which apparently they're going to get for the next round.

It was so chaotic that the commission on presidential debates to announce like that day, then the next day they were going to submit some changes to the processes. And apparently from people who are familiar with the process,a mute button's going to be one of them. 

Beth: [00:18:44] I have something to say about that.

Can we talk about that for a second? 

Sarah: [00:18:46] Yes, please. 

Beth: [00:18:47] Here is what concerns me about the mute button. And I think this concerns me about all the commentary about Chris Wallace, from people who support both Trump and Biden. However, they changed the rules here. And I am in favor of trying different things, experiment with the mute button all day.

However, they change the roles here. I think this is again where we need to put some hard questions to the people in our lives, because the notion that if Trump gets muted more than Biden, this was bias is absurd if you watch the 90 minutes that unfolded in that debate. Especially absurd if you watch the democratic debates where Biden was constantly saying, I think my time's up, I've never seen the level of rule following. 

For whatever reason he was constantly like trying to abide by the rules. And I just feel like we are in this universe now where, if there is any consequence of Donald Trump's behaviors, people have decided that's political bias against them personally, not just against Trump. And I don't think because either of those things, I said this when we recorded our instant reactions, This debate by the end did feel like Chris Wallace and Joe Biden were in one universe and Donald Trump was in another, but that's not because Chris Wallace came into this debate from a bias perspective.

It's because there were two serious people in the room trying to take the process seriously, and one unserious person. And that's how it's going to be no matter what the rules are.

Sarah: [00:20:22] Because here's the thing too. I think we have to talk about, it's not just people who are going to crow about bias. There is a group, and I believe they are growing, of Americans who believe that Donald Trump is calling them to violence over this election.

I think these people wanted violence anyway, and the dog whistling and implications, or sometimes just outright go to the polls. I'm calling people to go to the polls and watch which means suppress and intimidate because there are official processes in every state about who can come in. You can't just walk in, present yourself and say, I want to watch. That's outrageous.

And surely the, uh, president of the United States should know that. I think he probably does and he doesn't care. And what he's doing is dangerous. There are people, and because of our lack of gun control, like who have lots and lots of weapons, who are arming up believing that there will be civil unrest and violence, and we should all vote.

Be aware of that. If we have any control over our local law enforcement, our local judicial processes, we have the ability or are already signed up to be poll workers. Like I am legitimately worried about that. I think that there are people out there who were just waiting for their moment. And, you know, I believe that our system is decentralized enough and that local law enforcement are capable across the country of watching for this, preparing for this. I think there's something at least to be said that it's being telegraphed so clearly that this is what's going to happen, that people can prepare and not get caught off guard, but it doesn't make it any less scary. And it certainly doesn't make it any less reprehensible that he is so openly and irresponsibly pushing people to violence.

Beth: [00:22:13] Yeah. I read that story this morning and my heart sank for the people that work our polls here. Like I just think about the people who every election for years have shown up to work our polls and what it would be like if there were a bunch of folks like armed, trying to intimidate people outside the elementary school where we all go vote. 

And my heart sank again. I had this super visceral reaction to stories about the airline layoffs and how many people are losing their jobs right now, not just in that industry, but many others, but you know, specific faces in the airport came to mind for me. We're just sitting in such a real moment and it's infuriating. There's no reason to think that anybody is a savior in all of this.

And I get accused of that a lot. You act like Biden's a savior. No, I am very confident that he will not be. And I don't think a savior is available in politics. So thank you. But it's frustrating to read about Democrats and Republicans in Congress and trying to get a COVID relief bill. And it's like, my number is 1.6.

Well, my number is 2.4. Like it's the price is right or something. Like this dance back and forth when, when people are losing their jobs and their homes and their sense of security. At the same time, the only way that we get to work on those kinds of issues with a representative government is ensuring that the process is protected.

And so when you talk Sarah about people feeling called to violence over the process, that is a, that is a panic button moment for me. I don't know what the path forward looks like if a strong percentage, you know, more than 50 people here and there start to think that way.

Sarah: [00:24:21] So I think there's a lot of fear and anxiety and it is well placed around that. And I also want to say, on a much more individualistic level, I see so many people in my life who have personal experience with a narcissist, either through family relationships, um, romantic relationships, work relationships, and Donald Trump's behavior during the debate and Donald Trump's continued behavior is so triggering and so traumatizing to those people.

 And I just kind of wanted to take a moment and say like, we see you. And I'm so sorry. I'm just so sorry, because I know if you've had experiences is with being gaslit and being in arguments with someone who just interrupts you and interrupt you and interrupt you and talks over you and twist your words and tries to push you in a corner the way he did to Joe Biden during that debate, it's really, really hard to witness.

Even if you're not watching the debate, just watching it in the news and hearing people constantly talking about it, it's really, really triggering. And I'm just, sorry. I'm just really, really sorry that that's the state where we are in America.

 Or I think people are trying to engage with their friends and family members and they're having that experience with some friends and family members who they thought we're going to listen and be respectful and they're screaming and they're calling names and they're saying really, really, really hurtful things. And I think that, you know, just understanding all the pain and the, like, you just don't know.

 When you are arguing with someone about Donald Trump, like you just don't know their experiences. Like you don't know their history. And so much of what might be coming up for them is because they've had someone like Donald Trump in their lives before. 

Beth: [00:26:08] And I think it is a special actually brutal for those of you who are having those arguments in your partnerships.

Because you do know a lot of each other's history and you think, you know, a lot of each other's hearts and values and influences to feel like you're living in an alternate universe, as it relates to politics, which I feel like politics has even become such a weird word because all of these issues are infiltrating every aspect of our lives, they always have, but in such a visible way now. 

It cannot be compartmentalized and it's painful and we hear you. We are flooded with messages of people experiencing this, and we hear you and get it. And I'm so sorry that this is that there are so many compounding layers of suffering this year for so many people.

And instead of finding the, the gentle support of the people who are supposed to love us best, we're often running up against a wall that we cannot even fathom how that wall was built. It's just really tough and I wish I could make it better. 

Sarah: [00:27:22] Well, and I also just want to say, like, my heart is heavy for first time voters, that this is your experience that it's so heavy and so intense.

And, you know, our first presidential election was Bush V Gore. So we aren't familiar with the experience of a protracted fight over the election, but even Bush V Gore, the level of trauma, I don't know any other word for, it was not as strong. But I do feel like for all the first time voters out there, like you're going to be forged in the fire. Like you're never going to have that experience where voting is an academic exercise.

 You are building muscles that some people don't build their entire lives, like facing this, feeling the pressure, being brave, being courageous, reaching out saying when you don't know, asking questions. Like I am hopeful for a future filled with the first time voters, the young people, and sometimes not so young, some people that are stepping into this environment for the first time, like watching all of you and watching the bravery with which you're like, I don't know, but you're reaching out and you're asking, and you're struggling with this. Like that gives me great hope knowing that these are going to be the citizens for the next decades, participating in our elections and steering the process. That is powerful to me. 

Beth: [00:28:41] I think part of what is so difficult in this election is that. You meet this sense of Joe Biden must be perfect to overcome some like built in resistance to voting for a Democrat or to voting for Joe Biden personally or whatever it is. Right. We all have these layers of like, not all of us, but those of us who struggle in these conversations often have things to get past.

And so you hear from people that you're talking with, like, this is my nitpicky thing. And it's really frustrating to have that nitpicking on the other side of Donald's Trump, who I do think just poses a threat to our system of government. And so it feels like the conversation has already uneven. And I bring that up to say to those of you who are doing this, who are having these conversations, you don't have to have the perfect words.

You don't have to get everything right. You can get things wrong. You can say, you don't know, you can get emotional. I see your tears and your anger as signs of love of your country, not of weakness. And so just know that like, Just entering into the space makes a difference. You don't have to get it a hundred percent and don't let somebody who is using fake news as their best argument tell you that you are not equipped to discuss this with them. 

Sarah: [00:30:04] You know, yesterday. I had a really intense conversation, text thread with some friends, I was upset. You know, if we sound super calm right now and really centered it's because we had some really raw emotions on our Patreon analysis yesterday.

So if you, if you're looking for a little more anger at people who said, Oh, both sides were bad, I would suggest you head over to Patreon and take that in because we got a lot out there. But, and then when I sat down to look through our listener email, and I cried and cried and cried and not out of frustration or fear and anxiety, but just out of enormous hope, what all of you are doing out there. 

You know, listening to Ben Shapiro podcasts, cause your friend asks you to and you do that because, you know, that's the work of making sure people feel heard and respected, of giving gift cards to neighbors whose Biden signs get tore down over and over again. And then forming a relationship with them, because you reach out and say, I see you and your son gives me hope, hard conversations with parents because you know, it's called upon and they're breaking your heart and you're articulating that to them.

And you're being vulnerable and authentic. And you're out there like participating for the first time and such a fraught scenario. And I just sat there and cried and I felt such enormous hope because here's the truth. When Donald Trump feels afraid, the flip side of that is because we all feel hopeful because we all see things shifting and we all see things moving in the direction we want them to move and he will get louder and we have to see that as a sign that what we are doing is working.

 The louder he gets, the angrier he gets it's because he knows he's losing. Because all of us are out there doing the work of citizenship, of being good neighbors, of sharing our hearts with our friends and family members, instead of just running from conflict.

I'm so proud of us. I'm so hopeful when I read your messages. And when I speak to all the people in my life who are out there pushing and advocating and asking people to vote. Not to mention that every time I step out of my house with a Biden sign or a Biden shirt or a Biden mask.

 I went to old Navy last night and I had my Biden mask on and the two young female cashiers stepped over themselves to come tell me how much they love my mask. And that's not about Joe Biden. That is not about Joe Biden. When they look at me when those two young girls looked at me and said, I like your mask, it's not because they love every policy that Joe Biden stands for.

It's because they see that as a representation of a different and better way. And that's, what's giving them hope. That's what's giving me hope. I hope that's what's giving all of you hope is the way we see each other and we say, okay, we can do this. We can do this. 

Beth: [00:32:58] We can do this. We're so proud of you. Have the best weekend available to you. We'll be here with you again next Tuesday, with some more conversations that I hope inspire a lot of hope with our friends, Elizabeth and Eric about abortion and gun regulation. Until then, keep it nuanced y'all.

Alise NappComment