Ceasefire, Biden’s Legacy, and the Backlash Cabinet

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Ceasefire in the Middle East 

  • The Legacy of President Biden

  • The Backlash Cabinet

  • Outside of Politics: Pens vs. Pencils

Episode Resources

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BIDEN’S LEGACY AND TRUMP’S CABINET

PENS AND PENCILS

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.

Sarah [00:00:29] Thank you for joining us today. We have a very long conversation for you because there was a lot to talk about. We talk about the cease fire deal. We talk about the legacy of Joe Biden, which is indelibly caught up with Donald Trump. And so we talk about the incoming Trump administration. The many, many confirmation hearings happening on Capitol Hill this week and continuing into next week. And we talk about how we're thinking about both of those things. What we'd like to see from the Democratic Party as they face a second Trump administration. We talk about America itself and its voters and how we are continuing to interpret the election results and how we think about critiquing or alternatively taking seriously the incoming Trump administration. So settle in. We've got a long conversation for you. I think we hit some really good points. And then, of course, Outside of Politics, which we like to do at the end of the show, as we take a little exhale, we talked about a really important debate that Beth will think be pretty contentious among the community, even though we found lots of agreement inside the conversation, which is pencils versus pens.

Beth [00:01:58] Like many things, I would say keep it nuanced. So I like both. But I think that we really got to some of the features. I think we got to some features.

Sarah [00:02:05] Don't spoil it. We need people to get through like an hour and a half of Trump and Biden first.

Beth [00:02:10] If you hang in for pens versus pencils, I love you so much. Okay. If you like these wide ranging conversations where we look for moments of joy and fun and connection in a tough world, you should come hang out with us in person in Cincinnati on July 19th. That is July 19th, Cincinnati, Ohio. Save the date. Lots more information to come, but the plans are coming together for that and it's going to be a very good time. And speaking of a good time...

Sarah [00:02:37] Speaking of a good time, do you like a slow read? Listen, no, you're having to fall apart, but I'm out of control on the slow reads. I find them such a good time. I'm such a massive dork. I'm literally participating in, like, four slow reads right now. Ya'll, she's lost it. But it's true. I've lost the plot on slow reads because I love him so much. She can't get it together.

Beth [00:03:09] I cannot.

Sarah [00:03:10] Listen, it's true.

Beth [00:03:12] I don't know why that transition strike me as so funny.

Sarah [00:03:16] Pencils and pens and slow reads, whatever could be funny about that?

Beth [00:03:22] Okay. If you enjoyed our slow read of Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America-- I can't do it.

Sarah [00:03:30] All right. I'm going to pick this up for you, guys.

Beth [00:03:32] You do it.

Sarah [00:03:32] We're going to keep the party going.

Beth [00:03:34] This is why I never cry on this show [inaudible] it's just over.

Sarah [00:03:38] Listen, this is good. This is a good opener for the hour and a half conversation we have about some pretty dark trends in America right now. So we're going to read the 1985 book, Habits of the Heart together. It's a political science classic. I don't know if it's an overall classic, but my political science professor, Dr. Dewey, informed me via email that I have, in fact, read portions of Habits of the Heart if I completed assignments given to me back in, I don't know, 2000. So we're going to read it together. We have a reading schedule that you can get all the details on. Habits of the Heart really is in conversation with Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America. The title comes from a phrase Alexis de Tocqueville uses to describe our great country. So if you're interested in that, you can get all the details on our Substack page, which is linked in the notes. And now we are going to talk about the ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas and how that is a part of Joe Biden's legacy and how we're thinking about that legacy overall. Beth, after 15 months, we have a cease fire deal between Israel and Hamas pending approval by the Israeli cabinet. And I found myself having sort of a tamped down reaction. And then as I listened to reporting this morning, it sounded like that was the reaction from both inside Gaza and Israel. That everyone is, of course, happy we're closer, but very hesitant to celebrate openly.

Beth [00:05:22] I saw some videos of celebrations from the Middle East and those celebrations were being shown next to headlines about how there are still disputes. How often a cease fire will mean both sides ramp up their fighting in the final hours to just show, hey, we're strong enough to keep going if we need to. I think because there have been so many fits and starts around these negotiations really since October 7th, it's just hard to trust that a cease fire will hold right now. But I certainly hope that it will.

Sarah [00:05:56] It's a six week phase deal that gives in particular Israel an opportunity to back out at the end of the six weeks if they don't see what they want to see. I was listening to a reporter from the New York Times saying that Hamas wanted a hard and Israel wanted an open end. And so the language is purposely vague so that both parties can feel like they got what they wanted. And I think beyond the fits and starts, I find it difficult to celebrate where we are right now, even if it is encroaching on an end to a temporary end to the conflict. Because we have gotten to a place of such suffering for the hostages, for the people in Gaza. It is hard. It is hard to see this and see where we are and see where we ended up and think who won? That's the analysis. It's we know that Hamas is weaker. Israel is militarily stronger in the region, but reputationally much weaker globally. And I just wanted to talk back and say who's surprised? Who's surprised at this level of violence and suffering left everyone weaker in one way or the other.

Beth [00:07:16] I think the other thing that tempers my enthusiasm here is that the timing of this makes so clear how much of this is just about Benjamin Netanyahu as a human being; that so much destruction has followed because of his ego and because of his priorities.

Sarah [00:07:36] And his alliances with the far right wing of the Israeli political spectrum. That's what I think makes this so tentative.

Beth [00:07:45] Much of the reporting has emphasized that the terms here were not a real breakthrough. These are terms that have been on the table for months and months. And the difference is the pending inauguration of Donald Trump. And that is because of a relationship that Netanyahu and Trump have. And it's great. I want to be pragmatic and celebrate that the outgoing and incoming administrations have worked together well to get this done, because I don't really care how it comes together. I do want this to stop. At the same time, it's just a bitter pill to swallow when you recognize that so much of our foreign policy is instead of being about high minded principles, really about ego and the particular leader at a particular time, and who is willing to support and challenge that leader.

Sarah [00:08:41] Well, and it's about power. And I do celebrate the fact that the two administrations work together. Long time slog that the Biden administration and the diplomatic team within the administration has taken through these negotiations, through the ups and downs and the fact that the incoming Trump administration kind of came in and was the final push. Again, I think that is something worth acknowledging and even celebrating. But it does, like you say, expose what this has always been about, which is power for Benjamin Netanyahu, power for the leadership of Hamas. What remains of it? Security for the Israeli people, some sort of self-determination within Gaza. And it just feels like, particularly with regards to the last two, I think it's so difficult. I think it's so difficult. I think the suffering of the hostages over this amount of time, when you listen to the families, it's an impossibly long period of time to know that your family member is out there. There's just a very specific type of torture.

[00:10:15] it's just you see all the suffering. And even the upending, I was thinking, I wonder how people in Syria think about Israel. They all obviously do not think the same thing about Israel. But it is that there is a line connecting Israel's dominance within this military conflict, Iran's weakening and the ending of the civil war there. And it's just like but how could you even, how would you even sort that out to think about it as complex, as something like this is, with the amount of suffering that is intact? And I think we're still sorting out where the region is now. We know Iran is weaker. We know Israel is militarily stronger and that Hamas is militarily weaker. But I think that's why the cease fire deal is just difficult to take in because who knows how that really plays out within each individual country, much less the larger region.

Beth [00:11:21] Yeah. And we're just always limited by the fact that this is interesting to us, important to us. We care as much as we're able to, but we're just not there. And this part of the world I think you need to be there to really have an emotional reaction worth parsing to a cease fire deal.

Sarah [00:11:46] Yeah. Or to the entire conflict. I just finished Ta-Nehisi Coates's The Message. I read it in about 24 hours. He travels to Africa. He travels to a place, the United States, where his book has been banned. And he travels to the West Bank. And he talks about that. He talks about just being there and understanding what it's like to move inside this area and what it's like to walk through the Holocaust Memorial and to walk to the Western Wall and to move around Tel Aviv and then to move within the West Bank. He is an incredibly gifted writer. So it's very impactful. Impactful enough to know what you don't know because you're not there. And I will say that's why I have not envied the Biden team this entire time. I guess this is always part of the role of the president, right? Being in places, having information that the American public does not have and has never had. I think as we look back over the Biden administration, it is indisputable that so much of his focus was on foreign policy, particularly two places most Americans have never been- Ukraine and the Gaza Strip.

Beth [00:13:09] And it's so tricky. And I think it's a key to understanding his unpopularity because he came into office at a time when the American public really needed a lot of domestic focus because we were trying to get out of the Covid pandemic, because our economy was so significantly changed by the Covid pandemic, because technology was propelling us forward at a rate that most of us still haven't figured out a way to describe. So we really needed domestic focus. And certainly the Biden team did large pieces of legislation to try to give some attention there. But the world was knocking in a way that couldn't be ignored and that spoke to his individual interests and strengths. And so I think that when you look back at the Biden presidency, it's hard for me to imagine that much of us will be domestically focused, that his legacy, to the extent that it exists, is Afghanistan, Ukraine and the war in Gaza.

Sarah [00:14:11] Well, that's what I keep thinking about as I do my own personal assessment of the last four years and think about how his presidency will be remembered. You cannot argue that the withdrawal of Afghanistan was a turning point. His approval ratings tanked and they never quite recovered. I'm trying to put that in through the prism of the Commander-in-Chief Test. This book we read that says Americans really don't vote the way they say they do about foreign policy. Meaning we'll say we don't want conflicts, but we vote for commanders in chief who exhibit strength. I think in some ways you can see that with Donald Trump, except he always says, I'll be strong. Peace through strength. I'll be strong and I'll keep us out of all this. But then I look at Afghanistan and I think this is what everyone said they wanted. They wanted this to end. We didn't want to be at war in Afghanistan any longer. And so why did this hit his approval ratings so hard in a way that it never recovered? And are those rules still true? Jake Sullivan on Ezra Klein is saying no; that domestic policy and foreign policy because of technology, because of our economy, because, because, because are indelibly linked. And I do think that Joe Biden's presidency, as it comes to an end, is an interesting test case for that to ask are they two different things? I don't know anymore.

Beth [00:15:47] I don't know either. And I like that question a lot. I have a bunch of feelings about the Afghanistan withdrawal and more, I think, with time. I think Americans did want us out of Afghanistan, but they didn't want to lose.

Sarah [00:16:03] Yeah.

Beth [00:16:04] And that was just a loser. Almost the second we were gone, Afghanistan reverted to Taliban rule, cruelty, the oppression of women. Once again a place where terrorism can probably be nurtured and based. The entirety of the Middle East continuing to spiral after that didn't help. And at the same time, we bring people home and it focuses your mind on what it cost us to be in Afghanistan. And there wasn't really anything planned by the administration to address that on the other side. I think if you could just go back and of course, hindsight is 2020, I don't mean any of this is criticism as much as I'm trying to learn and think myself about new visions and how to do things going forward. But I wonder what it would have been like if with that withdrawal there had been an announcement of some massive infusion of mental health programing for veterans or some new jobs program or some new education program or something for the spouses of military members or the families. What could we have done to say, hey, this was so hard and so painful and what is going to unfold in Afghanistan next (which was foreseeable, they knew) is going to be really difficult for you to watch given the sacrifices that you've made. Here's what we're going to do for you now.

Sarah [00:17:37] Yeah, there does seem to be an overall approach within the Biden administration of like we're going to barrel through and do the right thing. Consequences be damned. There's a lot of really harsh criticisms and assessments out there at the end of this presidency. Dylan Matthews at Vox has a pretty harsh critique. He talks particularly about domestic policy that he couldn't prioritize, which is something you always call for with leadership. That he just kept adding things in, adding things in, trying to make everybody happy. And then what did he do? He made everybody mad. But there's also that sense of like I'm just going to do what I can do and you’re going to be mad about it, but that's the job of the president. You know what I mean? And persuasion had a really harsh thing. They were basically like maybe you're just not that bright. I thought that was pretty harsh. But I'm like, well, maybe that was an age thing. Maybe that was a sense of you can't win them all as you get older, so just suck it up and do what you think is right. Or subconsciously an idea of like, of course, I'm not going to make it through a second term, so I should do all I can in the first term. Consciously or subconsciously.

[00:18:49] But there does seem to be from Afghanistan and even I think with Ukraine to a certain extent-- although I think there were some really bad calls with regards to Ukraine. I think we should have let them use weapons across the border in Russia earlier, if not from the beginning. We want them to win. We know they're outpowered. Let them do what they can do to win. So I don't know. I go back and forth where I'm like these were bad calls on bad calls on bad calls. What were you doing? And then sometimes I'm like but there are only bad calls when you're president. I don't think they were nefarious, but I do think that his experience was a double edged sword. It makes you wiser. It makes you more cautious. And for better or for worse, you are surrounded by people with less than a fresh perspective is the kindest way I can put it.

Beth [00:19:47] I remember being in a meeting when I was relatively new to a business position in my old job. And I said to the people in charge that one of the things that I think needed to change was that we did nothing in an uncompromised way. Absolutely everything that we did have to pass through so many people that it got watered down in the process and by the end it was just kind of mush. But we still took a lot of hits for it because it's painful to get to the mush. And I feel like that's the issue both with Ukraine. I agree with your critique there. If we are going to support them, we should support them to victory. This is the same frustration with Afghanistan. If you are going to make the sacrifice, make it count.

Sarah [00:20:33] Yeah.

Beth [00:20:33] And it feels with a lot of things, the sacrifice has been there without it counting. I love the bipartisan infrastructure law. I think CHIPS in science has a lot of good in it. I think inflation reduction has a lot of good in it. They didn't see any of that through, though. It's like they were so beaten up by the time it got to the finish line that you signed the thing and had the ceremony and then sort of walked away. And now we have all of these federal programs sitting there ripe for corruption and abuse in the next administration. And Americans won't even know because we haven't seen any big wins on the board from them to have an expectation of how they're supposed to be administered.

Sarah [00:21:15] I think the lack of seeing it through is really naming something that happened with Joe Biden and his presidency. And, again, is it a lack of energy because the man is later in life maybe? Or is it a manifestation of decades within Congress where you're not implementing; you're not seeing it through. That's the point. I don't know. I think it's really heartbreaking to sit back and look at the unmet promise of this administration. I really do. Because I think Joe Biden has sacrificed a lot over his life to the pursuit of public service. And obviously within his family there has been a lot of sacrifice due to lives spent in the public eye. And so it is, it's just deeply sad to see someone who wanted to come in and had a historical moment with some winds at his back kind of falter and leave, like you said, so much vulnerability to an incoming administration that I think he's right in his farewell address is building a type of oligarchy. And so it's sad.

Beth [00:22:45] This is harsh. And I feel tension in saying it, but the phrase that keeps coming to mind for me is pride goes before the fall. I wonder if it's the case that because he is older, because he has so much experience, because he was the vice president, he came in feeling like I know exactly what I'm doing and how to do it. He brought the historians in to talk about making himself the next FDR. and I wonder if it created within the administration an environment where people didn't push on him enough. I wonder if his age created an environment where people didn't push on him enough. I wonder if Jill Biden contributed to an environment where people didn't push on him enough because he had a lot of bright people working for him. He staffed up in a way that you shouldn't have these execution failures. You shouldn't have these prioritization failures. You shouldn't have the communication failures they had. It doesn't matter that he can't give an Obama-like speech. Who cares? He had people who could. He had people who could have explained to America why TikTok is such a national security turn.

[00:23:53] It is a failure that so many of our listeners still think TikTok is being banned because of their personal privacy, not because of a collective problem. People have no clue what's at the root of that. And this administration understood. You could see it in some of the executive orders and some of the work they were doing. They understood that they were in a new communications landscape where the sheer volume of garbage that was going to be pumped out through these apps would have to be met with crystal clarity on their part. And they haven't done it on anything. They haven't done it on anything. You and I did a private event recently where I said I think what happened in this election is that Trump won and Biden lost. And it kind of sounded like I was misspeaking because Harris actually lost. But she didn't actually lose. Biden actually lost. That is what happened here. And I think Biden lost in large part because of these issues that he had a huge bench of people ready to help him on, and I just wonder if he wouldn't let them.

Sarah [00:24:59] What I can't quite make sense of is how a president not that far away in age from his opponent in Donald Trump so misunderstood the communication landscape. Whereas, Donald Trump seems to have really cornered it and is about to be sworn in as the oldest president in American history at the time of his swearing in. I guess it's because one spent their life in public service and one spent their life in media. Because that's really what Donald Trump has been doing for decades, is media, not real estate and certainly not politics. And so that's what I can't quite wrap my arms around, although I can kind of talk my way there. Because it does seem like he should have had enough people around him. I do think about Joe Biden a lot. Look, I like first ladies. I think the choices they make are fascinating. I'm looking at you Michelle Obama right now, who seems to have said I'm done. I'm not going to be a former first lady any more. Guys, I'm retired. Peace. But I always think about what bubbles up and becomes a meme within my own family. And now within my own family we say pretty often you've got all the answers right, Joe. You answered all the questions correctly, Joe. Like that becomes a way that we say to each other you need babying right now, so I'll give it to you. Like that's just become a form of like a shortcut.

Beth [00:26:36] It's like the new please clap.

Sarah [00:26:38] Yeah, right. It is. It really is. And we say it a lot. And every time we say it, I'm like, oh, man. And, listen, there are lots of Trumpisms that we use too as shortcuts, as slang, to indicate things. But I use that moment with her and so does my husband and so do my kids as like a way to baby someone, basically. And that couldn't have been the first time.

Beth [00:27:03] I think that Donald Trump was early to understanding media as a vehicle for sales in a way that people have blown out from there. A lot of podcasts exist to sell an underlying product or service. And Donald Trump was doing that through tabloids and newspapers and television appearances very early. And so he has spent his career selling through media. And when you sell, you have a crystal clear message. Whereas, legislating is a game of inches. Always. You can see the two skill sets and understand how we got here. What I can't understand and why I have to think that some of this is ego, is that Biden should look at himself and say this is a vulnerability. This is a weakness of mine. I must shore it up with someone else because I know the need exists. I don't have to meet the need, but I got to have people on my team who meet the need. And I've got to empower those people to tell me when I am at cross-purposes with what needs to be done. I need to be able to hear, "Hey, don't do that gaggle because you'll say something that is not helpful." And that has to be able to exist in conversation without the pressure of the age question hanging over everybody. I just wonder if everybody here was really constrained by the combination of age and ego.

Sarah [00:28:30] Yeah, but here's my harder question. Was there a way to navigate that in our media environment that puts such a high value on authenticity and off the cuff and the weaving that we were making fun of that was clearly appealing to the American populace? I think that's the harder question, it's was there a way for him to navigate this? Because it was the primary that produced him that produced this inability to prioritize within the Democratic Party? It was the primary that put him in power. Whereas, maybe we should have just let everybody fight it out. And if we got Pete Buttigieg, would we have been worse off? I don't know.

Beth [00:29:17] One thousand percent we would not have been worse off if we got Pete Buttigieg. And I feel confident saying that. And here's the other thing I feel confident saying. I think that's a great question and a hard one. And my answer is I don't know. But if that question was on anyone's mind and it should have been, then he clearly should not have run again.

Sarah [00:29:35] Yes.

Beth [00:29:36] Again, you got to be honest about who you are and what the moment requires. Not what's fair, not what you think you deserve, not what would happen in another timeline, but where we are today.

Sarah [00:29:48] But dang you could have sat down with Donald Trump and had that same conversation. Gotten to know you shouldn't run again and he's going to be the next president. That's the hard one.

Beth [00:29:57] It is a hard one.

Sarah [00:29:58] You certainly can't talk about Joe Biden without Donald Trump. That's hard. That's hard after decades of public service. I'm going to be honest. Maybe that's the heartbreak that I'm really trying to put my finger on. But you just can't. He's going to be a blip in the Trump era. I think that legislatively, domestically, I think when you lose-- and I think you're right, he lost. I'm still glad we replaced him with Kamala Harris.

Beth [00:30:29] Absolutely. And that's not to take anything away from her

Sarah [00:30:32] No. I do not think he would have won. That's delusional.

Beth [00:30:35] Yes.

Sarah [00:30:35] And also indicative of perhaps what you were trying to name here. But I do think when you lose definitively, the loss defines your legacy for a long time. I think this happened with Carter. I think this happened with Johnson-- not that Johnson lost.

Beth [00:30:53] With H.W. Bush.

Sarah [00:30:55] Right. I think that when you lose, that just subsumes everything in the short term. So I think whatever assessment's going on right now and it is pretty harsh, will not be the ultimate assessment of Joe Biden in 30, 40, 50 years from now. That being said, I still don't think he's going to be a transformative figure. I still think he will always be married in analysis with Donald Trump.

Beth [00:31:24] He and lots of other people.

Sarah [00:31:26] Probably us, Beth. God save us.

Beth [00:31:28] The big crowd.

Sarah [00:31:28] Well, it is. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about this big crowd right now. Next up, we're going to talk about the confirmation palooza that's currently happening on Capitol Hill. So we've had an aggressive round of confirmation hearings in the United States Senate this week. I would say the headliner would be Pete Hegseth for secretary of defense. Would you agree, Beth?

Beth [00:32:01] I would. And I would love to hover on the aggressiveness of the timeline for just a second.

Sarah [00:32:05] It's aggressive. It's so many people. It's like 13 people in front of 11 committees in like a week? Two weeks?

Beth [00:32:12] Yes. Take, for example, Wednesday, when six people had hearings for attorney general, the State Department, the CIA, OMB and Energy. Six people in one day. So we know that the strategy is going to continue to beflood the zone. You cannot watch these hearings. You cannot cover these hearings effectively. This was a layer of protection for a bunch of people, many of whom are going to struggle under scrutiny. And the scheduling here is protective of them, and I just think it's important to recognize the strategy.

Sarah [00:32:48] Well, I quibble with the word protective. Is it ultimately protective? Keeping them from the scrutiny they will inevitably face?

Beth [00:33:02] I think that's a fair question and very related to the conversation we were just having about President Biden. Because ultimately the spotlight comes and the moment comes. And if you aren't ready, it sure would be nice to know that at the very beginning.

Sarah [00:33:15] Yep. So let's at least talk about Pete Hegseth. We can't talk about all of them. There's too many. And some of them are going to sail through like Marco Rubio for secretary of state. But Pete Hegseth, I think got a lot of attention because he is historically unqualified for this particular position. He has served in the military, but he has never run an organization the size of the Department of Defense. There were also quite a few concerns about his character. He has been accused of sexual assault, sexual harassment, public drunkenness. He has articulated some pretty radical opinions about the use of torture inside the United States military and the presence of women inside particularly combat units. So I did think that the democratic senators articulated those concerns well. I particularly liked Mark Kelly who came towards the end and was like, look, friend, either this is a smear campaign or you have gotten Jesus in your life and you're a changed man. But it really can't be both. Either you're changed because you were an asshole before and Jesus saved you or everybody's making it up. But which one is it?

Beth [00:34:39] I saw this really differently. I felt that this hearing demonstrated a complete inability on the part of Senate Democrats to learn anything. I felt that it was the same playbook that they have been using since Donald Trump came on the scene, that the posture from Democrats is that it is obviously wrong that this man is before us. He is obviously unqualified. He's a Fox News host about to run the largest organization on the face of the earth. And that's obviously terrible. He obviously has cheated on his spouses. He obviously has abused and degraded women. He obviously is a drunk. That obviousness is clearly not obvious to the public because here we are. And so what I wanted to see was more pragmatism from Senate Democrats. Again, they're flooding the zone here. It is going to be hard to get a message to the American public across. So pick a goal. Is your goal to keep Pete Hegseth from being confirmed? If that's the goal, then isn't your audience Republican colleagues in the Senate? And if your audience is Republican colleagues in the Senate, then you've got to focus on something different than if your goal is just to tell the public, hey, he sucks.

[00:36:03] Maybe that's what they were trying to do. But that's singing to the choir because that message was so diffuse across all of these issues that it's not going to reach the average person. I wanted a coordinated attempt by Senate Democrats to do something, even if it's a goal I don't agree with. I most appreciated Senator Slotkin, Senator Duckworth focusing in on the job itself. Because I think the most effective attack on Pete Hegseth, if you're trying to not have him be confirmed-- and that would be my goal. I understand that elections have consequences. A lot of people are going to be in the cabinet who I don't like, who I disagree with on policy. I think he is uniquely wrong for this particular job. And I don't think qualified works in today's Republican Party. It's like Donald Trump's going to be the president again and a whole bunch of people are going to be in positions that they are not experienced enough to have and the public is going to go, that's right. Because that's how you make change. Fine.

[00:37:07] Then let's focus on him not being prepared, because you can have a radically different set of experiences that you bring to a new context with very good results if you've taken the time to prepare. And I thought what Senator Duckworth in particular showed is that he's not done his homework. So that honestly the Senate Democrats could have taken Project 2025 chapter about the Department of Defense, which is a thoughtful and serious blueprint for the incoming administration, and quizzed him on it and shown the public seven minutes at a time over the course of this hearing that this guy is not trying. This guy is qualified to be a Fox News host and prepared to be a Fox News host. And whatever he might be able to contribute to the Department of Defense, great. But he hasn't equipped himself to be ready to do this job on the first day.

Sarah [00:38:03] No, I totally agree. I think they were organized to get through some of the most heinous things he's done because I don't think you can skip over that. You can't be Kirsten Gillibrand, who's dedicated a large portion of your career to addressing sexual assault in the military and not speak to credible claims of sexual assault against the secretary of defense nominee. And I thought they were organized in a way. They weren't repeating themselves. They weren't stepping all over each other. And I thought they kind of used each other to get to that point that Mark Kelly made, that it cannot be both. You cannot decide that it's anonymous and also you're changed to get to that point. Because I do think they had to address him as a person. Even though, look, I agree. I don't think people care. But the truth is I'm not sure you could do anything in a Senate nomination hearing besides, I don't know, dance on the table that's going to break through to Americans who don't pay attention to the news. Good luck. Godspeed.

[00:38:58] But I totally agree that I wish they'd gotten there and hammer the point down a little bit harder of taking the point that this administration and perhaps a slim majority of Americans want a change agent. I mean, look, the mayor of South Bend to the Department of Transportation is a change agent, I would argue. And fine, but do you know who always does their homework? Pete Buttigieg. You couldn't have embarrassed him, but you certainly could have embarrassed Pete Hegseth. Michael Bloomberg had this privately commissioned report about deindustrialization, how that affects our military readiness. I would have been up there being like, how are you going to address the deindustrialization of the United States military? How are you going to address drones? Just pepper him with things that he cannot answer because he's not ready. Like take him seriously. Say, you're right. We have really huge issues in the United States military and perhaps we do need a change agent. Perhaps we need dramatic change.

[00:40:07] We also have critiques of our military readiness, of our relationship with China, of problems with recruitment. But to stand up here and say that wokeness is the center of, I don't know, two decades of conflict that left troops demoralized, depressed or dead from suicide and that's the cause. Come on, dude. There was not a wokeness virus back in the 1990s and the early aughts in the United States military. Don't come with that crap. I agree. I think there's just all the things even in Project 2025 to just say here are the actual massive challenges. I'll take you seriously that you're a change agent and we need change. Here's where I see the issues. What do you plan to do about it? He wouldn't have an answer.

Beth [00:40:58] Honestly, I think using Project 2025 would have broken through. I think if they had said, "I'm looking at page 75 and I would just love to hear you describe this issue. I would like to know if you see it the way that Christopher Miller, who wrote this, sees it. I'd like to know what aspects of the Department of Defense you think can be mobilized to address this problem," he would have been lost. He would have been lost. And I think that that would have at least spoken to some of the Republican colleagues. And I think that it would have been newsworthy because of the cheap tool of using Project 2025. But shoot, if you put a policy paper out like that, aren't we supposed to use it? You all said this was the blueprint. Aren't we supposed to do it? Here's the question that I have for you about Senator Gillibrand who I thought did a nice job making the point that she made. Why can't you skip that in the Senate confirmation hearing? You can make speeches about it. You can show up on Instagram reels and talk about it. You can issue press releases and write op ed's about it.

[00:42:04] But I just look at the way media has been such a thorn in Democrats side. It has been such a deficiency. We just talked about it with the Biden legacy and the election. I want them to get smarter, which means prioritization. It means they're saying in this hearing, we're here to do one thing because that's all we can get everybody's attention on. And I feel like the fear drives them instead. We're going to hit everything because we want to make sure that everybody here is that we're standing up for women. We want to make sure that we're hitting issues of sexual assault in the military. And I get it. But I just think there are other ways to speak to those groups. When you have one shot, I feel like you have to take it. And I just felt like they didn't take it. And it also harkened back to the Kavanaugh hearings for me. When they take it kind of sort of and it doesn't land, then it backfires. And it prompts all of the Republicans around Pete Hegseth to defend him, to defend the worst of the morality charges. It causes Markwayne Mullin to be like, who among us doesn't show up to vote drunk occasionally? And suddenly the vice becomes the virtue? And so I just I want them to be brave enough to settle on a thing and really go for it.

Sarah [00:43:27] I believe that Kirsten Gillibrand believes, and I agree with her, that sexual assault is a top priority. Not because of the obvious ethical black hole that is sexual assault in women. But because I think you could you could put it together in a way that says we want to talk about your sexual assault and your views of women in combat, not just so we can talk about what a shit person you are and we can talk about what good people we are and you're all bad people, but because we can say recruitment should be a huge priority for the incoming secretary of defense and all of this speaks to recruitment. The woke virus and the diversity, do you think it's because the Department of Defense just wants to be loved by The New York Times, or do you think some of this might speak to the recruitment problem within the United States military? How are you going to solve that if you are either assaulting and having people run away from something they tried to prioritize in their life at great sacrifice. Or keeping them from coming in the first place because they're worried about discrimination, exclusion, assault.

[00:44:54] They could have done that in a way that spoke to the job instead of just-- because I agree, look, the other half of this that's so hard is they just changed their minds. They just go, that thing I said, I don't mean it no more. I mean, that's clearly what he did in meeting after meeting with Joni Ernst. He just said, "I'm just kidding. I don't mean it." Just like Brett Kavanaugh and overturning Roe v Wade. Listen, I don't have an easy answer for what to do when people who just lie straight to your face. That's a tough one. That's a tough nut to crack. What I do think is the solution to a lot of the Democratic Party's strategy around the incoming Trump administration. And what I wish I'd seen more of with Pete Hegseth and Pam Bondi and all these people, and particularly Kash Patel as we get closer to that hearing, is they are the elites now. We don't have to defend anything. They are the elites now. They should be defending things. And when you are the elites and when you have the power, the naming the problem cannot be enough. That's not enough. You don't get to just throw stones anymore. You're in charge. So we want to hear how you're going to solve it. Not just that you think it's a problem. And we all have to think, as critics of the Trump administration, they are the elites. They are the power players. And I really believe in my heart that they don't know what to do with that. They don't have a long term plan for being the people criticized instead of being the people criticizing.

Beth [00:46:35] Nobody has a plan for that, right? I don't disagree with you at all that sexual assault in the military is a massive priority related to national security, not just related to how I feel about existing in this country as a woman. Both things are true. But related to national security, absolutely. And if that's the issue that they picked, great. Go for it. Hammer it away. But make the case. Don't act like this is so obvious that one senator can hit it here and maybe another one hits it there but in between all kinds of things happen and we end up talking about Jesus Christ constantly. I just thought this was such a huge missed opportunity. And to speak about the backlash aspect of this cabinet. Because that's all it is. It's a backlash to me, too. It's a backlash to diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. It's a backlash to all of those billionaires’ tears, coffee mugs that people have been trotting around in the Bernie Sanders kind of Elizabeth Warren universe. It's backlash everywhere. We will do what we want. There's a quote that I'm not going to repeat because it's so crass from a banker floating around everywhere who said, now I can say these words again.

Sarah [00:47:45] Urgh!

Beth [00:47:46] And that's exactly it. Urgh! And honestly I, in my real life, feel that posture shifting from people a little bit.

Sarah [00:47:55] Yeah. I'm telling you I feel like I see more people smoking publicly. And my husband says I'm crazy, but I am telling you it is happening.

Beth [00:48:02] I believe you. And I see a lot of places where there is just a little bit of a middle finger going up with a smirk that I can do it now and dare you to scold me over it. And I agree that we need some correction that we had gotten way too scoldy. I agree. I was remembering thinking about this episode, though, when we were dealing with the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. And I said, "What am I going to tell my daughters?" And now I know I'm going to tell my daughters that this is what backlash looks like. That every time you try to move forward, people come and slap you way, way back. And that some of that will be needed because of our tendency to overcorrect, and then it will also be way too much. And this is way too much. It's awful that someone like Pete Hegseth is going to be in charge of the Department of Defense. It's awful. And those of us who think it's awful, who feel that it is self-evidently bad that this man is going to have this responsibility, especially given his history with women, need to take a second and huddle up and figure out what the new strategy is. We can't just keep trotting out the old one.

[00:49:13] And that's what this hearing felt like to me, just trotting out the old strategy and accepting the defeat of it. Because everyone is saying to everyone with a notepad or a recorder or a phone, the other [inaudible] are going to get confirmed. There's not much we can do. I don't want to stay in that universe. I want a forceful, determined, thoughtful, strategic opposition. And I understand that that's tough for Democrats right now because they don't have a quarterback. But get one. Get one just in your committee. Get a quarterback just for this committee. Call up Liz Cheney, who definitely knows how to prosecute a case. I bet she'd come meet with you and make some suggestions on how to hold a hearing that breaks through in the media. I don't care where you go or what you look for advice on or what priority you choose. Again, they're really going to pick some priorities that I don't agree with, but have one. Make a stand where you're going to make a stand. I just don't want to see any more of this theater that feels to me like not even holy pictures, like, holy video that I put on my X account for 20 people to interact with.

Sarah [00:50:19] And, look, I don't think they're all the same. I think the Democratic senators probably got a little more organized than we think they did. I think some of them are in just different places. Of course, they are. They're different people and so is the Republican Party. As unified as they can seem from time to time, this is still a conglomeration of immensely ambitious people, including these tech billionaires that are throwing parties. Does anybody read a history book around here? Anybody at all? Like this is how this plays out. When you get enormous power and you roll in and make big changes, Donald Trump, you think everybody wants to be your friend now? Start making some calls. See how that ends up. This is not going to stay like this. It just isn't. There will be inevitable infighting and power plays. And thank God we're a big, messy country.

[00:51:20] Look, I listen to these assessments and I try to be as cool headed as I can. Am I missing something? I listen to the academics who talk about Ecuador and Venezuela and Turkey. I do. I listen to all that and I take it as seriously as I can. But we're not Ecuador and we're not Turkey. And I keep watching all this and I keep thinking that same attitude, the sort of middle finger, the sort of I deserve what I deserve, yeah, it's obnoxious and it's ultimately harmful to our democracy. But it will absolutely bite the Trump administration eventually. The idea that I deserve ease and success and comfort at all times. And if you make anything harder for me-- I don't know what to call it except for a little bit of brattiness. It's also difficult to govern. It's not pleasant to be around in public and it's also very difficult to govern. So we'll see. We'll see.

Beth [00:52:41] Which is why what I would just beg of Democrats is don't give up. Don't give up even in this moment, because you're right, it is a fractured Republican caucus underneath the surface, especially in the Senate. And people should be taking the lesson that if you're unpredictable, if you occasionally vote with the other party, you get all the attention. You get all the attention. You hold so much power if you're willing to deviate from the group. So go at that in the most effective way that you have, because we need that. We need an effective opposition party always. And that's what Republicans have done really, really well.

Sarah [00:53:19] I just wonder if their waiting for calls to critique. I think they're a little stuck right now. They're waiting for some mistakes to be made. Whereas, I think what you and I are both saying is fine. Cool, yes, but stop with the character critique. Nobody cares. I don't know what to tell you. I hate it, too. But they are in charge now, so take their critiques seriously. I struggle with Pete Hegseth. The day of his confirmation hearing, I was sitting in a doctor's office listening to a mother tell another person that her son's out of the military and he said, "This world is not built for me. I don't know what I'm doing now." I take all of that critique from him seriously. Do I think he is the person to address that inside the Department of Defense? I do not. But take it seriously. Some things that are coming from the MAGA universe have merit. I know that's difficult to hear. I get it. But go look at the map. Go look at the electoral results. Look at cities as blue as it can be in states, as blue as it can be and watch them turn. Take it seriously. That's what you have to do in politics. You have to suck it up and acknowledge that sometimes your enemies, as morally bankrupt as they may be hit on something that clicks for people. So take it seriously.

Beth [00:54:42] And, look, if you're listening and you agree with none of what Sarah just said, if you can't take it seriously, you refuse to take it seriously, fine. As a raw political matter, force them to take it seriously so you can hold them accountable. So you can show their base voters that they are full of it. That they can't execute either. That they promised you a whole lot of things. And all of those promises are just going to turn into dollar bills for the billionaires that have propping this whole operation up. Take it seriously so that you can expose them for what you believe they are. But to continue to just walk through this being like can you believe they do this? Can you believe that he's been publicly drunk? Can you believe it he was nominated? I mean, Sarah, I think what you said is really fair about being stuck until they're in power and making calls. But I also think that if you can't make Pete Hegseth look unqualified to run the Department of Defense, you have got a problem in your house that somebody has got to address because it is not going to get easier from here.

Sarah [00:55:42] Well, I think it's just the let go of the clown. I know they're clowns. I can see it as clearly as you can, but they won. And so now they're the elite. Treat them as such. Treat them as such. America wants change agents. So the idea that you're going to critique them as not meeting the requirements of previous members of the elite is not going to work. They've changed the requirements of the elite. They are now the elite. Critique them as such. Stop saying we don't need a change agent. That's not what America wants to hear. Stop saying that. Stop making them seem as they don't fit a mold. That is a plus, not a minus in the eyes of most Americans. And that is like the sooner we put that in our blood, the better.

Beth [00:56:35] I can't remember who I heard say this. I think it was Tim Kaine who I felt completely wasted his seven minutes in the Hegseth confirmation hearing, but who I think is generally very smart and insightful. I think it was Tim Kaine who I heard say Donald Trump is about to turn our government into eBay. That's a good message. That's the truth. Start with the inaugural balls exposing that. This is the crypto inauguration. I don't care. Raise the flags. Great. I think it's probably wise to raise the flags from half-mast to say we celebrate the peaceful transition of power. I'm not going to fight about those things. I think that's great. Sure, do it. But then talk to the American people about the parties, about the parties that even millionaires cannot get into because they are so over credentialed with billionaires. Explain. The government is now for sale. You've seen this happening in lots of parts of your lives, and it's happening here in Washington, D.C. And it's not what we want and it's not going to be what benefits you and your family. Just pick a message and hammer away at the message. And that means that you have to let a lot of valid points go. And that's hard, but it is necessary.

Sarah [00:57:48] Well, I don't know. I really struggle with this part. I think that part is harder, actually. Even though I completely agree, I'm just not sure Americans care because they do that. It's always been like that. What's the difference? And so I do think we need a little more time. Not saying you couldn't start that critique, but they're not going to listen to it from Nancy Pelosi, Party of Nancy Pelosi. And even like Tim Kaine is lovely. Do you know who his co-senator is? Mark Warner, who's as rich as rich can be. I think that's the tough one. Again, I totally agree with President Biden. This is an oligarchy. This is a level of power and influence bought and sold. But I have not heard anyone articulate yet. And again maybe we need to start seeing some of it play out. We're seeing it with Jared Kushner already getting real estate deals, but nobody cares if Jared Kushner gets richer. They just don't. I don't think people give a shit. I agree. And so I haven't heard anyone say yet what I think will get people's attention. They voted for the billionaire. They voted for two billionaires. Let's just be honest with ourselves.

Beth [00:59:04] Absolutely.

Sarah [00:59:05] So almost trillionaire and Elon Musk. So I'm not sure yet. I think it will happen. And I think maybe you could have said to Pete Hegseth like, look, you make $6 million a year as a Fox News host. What do you know about your fellow veterans struggling with a lack of mental health care and inability to pay their bills? What do you know about that? You're going to have more meetings with defense contractors than you are with former veterans. You know it and I know it. But I don't know. I can't quite see clearly what will hit because I do think the corruption is going to be bananas. But I'm not sure what will click with people.

Beth [00:59:48] That's super good points and maybe that's the wrong issue. I heard Tim Miller on the Bulwark, one of their shows, saying that he kind of likes the idea of some Democrat like next week announcing their candidacy for president in 2028. And that person just hammering away at the Trump's failures and getting the media because they're already a declared candidate. And in my mind, I thought, I don't hate that either. And I immediately thought, you know who should do it? It's Mark Cuban, because Mark Cuban also has fuck you money.

Sarah [01:00:18] Yeah.

Beth [01:00:18] And he is a very crystal clear communicator. And so maybe you don't attack the wealth at all. Maybe you have somebody like Mark Cuban coming in to say these guys are gold leaf. Crypto is a joke and you know it and I know it and it's not real. Just like all of Trump's wealth. And they're going to promise you all these things. I'm the person who's built things that deliver, that actually create value. He has a great story around making pharmaceuticals more affordable to people. He's going to start manufacturing generic drugs again at a loss to himself because he has the money to do it. So maybe he's a person who could come out and pick a completely different angle. I don't care what the angle is. I just want a quarterback and an angle. Just one. A really defined win that you hammer away at every single day until some Americans start to go, I think this is what Democrats stand for now.

Sarah [01:01:06] Hey, they'll remember what I said about the conglomeration of immensely ambitious people.

Beth [01:01:11] Yes.

Sarah [01:01:12] About the strength and the burden. Sorry.

Beth [01:01:17] It's true. But you know what? That's the key. That's the crux of it, right? Because that's why Democrats never get past the authenticity hurdle, because they speak as though all of this is worth sacrificing your ego over. And people don't see enough folks willing to do it.

Sarah [01:01:34] Well, I don't think no Democrats get past the authenticity hurdle.

Beth [01:01:38] I mean as a party.

Sarah [01:01:39] AOC absolutely gets past the authenticity hurdle. If you want to talk about somebody, I want to put all my communication chips on as a Democrat, it's absolutely her. I don't think anybody does it better than she does. I just don't. I have not seen them, for that matter. But Mark Cuban, AOC, go ahead. Go. [Inaudible] declare she would never run with Mark Cuban.

Beth [01:01:59] But that's the problem, right? Two real different visions. They're two real different visions. But again, and look, I would not follow AOC into battle, but I don't care. Just somebody. Somebody do the thing. Be effective on the national stage. That's my level of frustration.

Sarah [01:02:14] Listen, now, maybe we've wrapped back around to the beginning of our conversation about Joe Biden. Maybe we don't need to pick. What we need is the battle. What we need is for everybody to start trying and failing in places like Pete Hegseth's hearing so we can start to actually test ideas and approaches because I want the absolute strongest candidate in 2020. I want somebody who's been on every stupid podcast and has found their viral moment and articulate. We're just going to have to start. And they are. Look, they are. That's maybe why I feel a little more hopeful coming out of the hearings. I see people, even Tim Kaine, who I felt like was a little on edge. They're trying. We're going to have to throw a lot of stuff at the wall because we are, for better or for worse, with this administration in some uncharted territory, especially with the presence of Elon Musk. And so maybe that's it. Maybe this is just an extensive communications primary time.

Beth [01:03:20] But two parter. I agree with that about the primary 100%. I'd like them to do some of the smart, podcast too. And legislatively, those people have real power right now. Stuff is happening right now. If you are going to seriously challenge one of Trump's Cabinet nominees, I don't know how you convince yourself that it's not Pete Hegseth. Maybe you tell yourself it's Tulsi or Kash Patel. Maybe again they're picking one and they're really going to shoot their shot at that one. And if they do, then my hat's off to them. But where they have actual power right now, I want them to get organized and use it. And I did not see that in this hearing and it really bummed me out. But I agree with you. As to the primary, test the messages, test the people, put everybody through the paces. And that is an unintended consequence of the Biden legacy. He has left the party in a real state of disarray and something hopefully good will emerge from that.

Sarah [01:04:23] Yeah, I do feel as a student of history that when I see an administration roll in with a mirage of momentum, a mirage of a mandate and a minority party decimated and white boarding from scratch, I did have a thought this morning. I was like we'll probably end up with a female president because he'll mess things up so badly over the next four years. It's how we got our first black president after George W Bush messed it up so badly over eight years. I did kind of have that thought this morning. I'm not going to lie to you. So I do think that is a universe of possibility, not the only one, but a universe of possibility.

Beth [01:05:08] You know what convinces me more that it's a mirage of a mandate? Because I had been questioning how real this is. I was getting my haircut yesterday and my hair stylist, who is very young and cool and very addicted to TikTok, asked me what I thought about the UHC shooting. The way she said it was what do you think about Luigi?

Sarah [01:05:33] Luigi. First name.

Beth [01:05:35] And I heard her say, "I am so grateful that Christmas came to disrupt the path that I felt we were going down in the wake of that murder." Because there was momentum in an ugly, ugly direction starting to coalesce. And that direction is super counterculture with the billionaire’s cabinet and the oligarchy that's about to be on display with this inauguration and a lot of what follows it. And that is a tension that makes me think this is a mirage of a mandate, because while a lot of people want something very different, they also feel like they're getting screwed over by rich people in all directions. And Trump is lining up the wealth to govern this country. And I don't know what's going to happen from that. And I pray that it happens peacefully through the political process where great leaders emerge to guide us through it. But the honeymoon is going to be over fast. I agree.

Sarah [01:06:36] I don't want to be the angel of darkness here. And the holiday season, I agree, disrupted some of the momentum, but it is still absolutely bubbling below the surface particularly with regards to that story. Lots of people in my own life still follow him and his legal pursuits and the discussion around him very closely. I don't really think that's gone much of anywhere. It's just not in the news as much. But I bet if your algorithm on TikTok thinks you're still interested in the Luigi, I can't imagine you lack for content on any given day. And I mean new content, fresh content, fresh takes. I totally agree. And maybe that is the tension I always find in that shooting. That people were so angry about health insurance, but it never came up in the election. And I think it is inevitable because that gap is growing. When Elon Musk reaches trillionaire status, which doesn't seem that far away when his wealth is growing by that amount and things get more expensive-- or the crypto crashes or even ebbs, there's a lot of regular people with an enormous amount of money invested in crypto or dependent on the money that crypto is bringing to them and their families. There's just a lot crackling here. There's a lot of fuel for the fire. I totally agree. And I guess a crackling fire is a good metaphor as we wrap up the Biden administration and face Donald Trump's inauguration. Up next, we're going to talk about what's on our mind Outside of Politics.

[01:08:23] Music Interlude.

Sarah [01:08:33] Beth, I have an announcement.

Beth [01:08:35] Okay, I'm ready.

Sarah [01:08:36] I'm 43 years old. I would say for at least 20 years I have been a pen person, and now I'm a pencil person.

Beth [01:08:48] Okay. I want to hear some context. What are you normally writing on and about and for?

Sarah [01:08:53] A journal. I write in my planner. I write in my bullet journal. I write notes. But, yeah, I write a lot.

Beth [01:09:07] I think this is somewhat unique.

Sarah [01:09:10] And I'm writing with a pencil now. I highlight in books, make notes in books.

Beth [01:09:18] I would like to know the economics of the pen and pencil market because I love to have pens and pencils and I do write something daily. But I have a sense that I'm using my pen and pencils a whole lot more than a lot of my peers.

Sarah [01:09:32] Listen, here's what happened. I was always a pen person. I felt the pens were superior. I don't know how to say it any more plainly. I just felt like this was a superior product until I got my hot little hands on a black wing pencil. Have you ever used a black wing pencil? I have not. It's the best pencil I've ever had. There's a lot of pencils in my life. I don't know how to describe it. So they say on the side of the pencil, half the pressure, twice the speed.

Beth [01:10:01] Okay.

Sarah [01:10:02] And I do find that to be true. So it's just a lovely-- I feel like, yeah, I don't have to press as hard, even with the best pen I've ever had. So I'm just gliding with this pencil. And they have the coolest erasers I've ever seen. So they're long and skinny, but they come out of the pencil. So they're in this little metal clip and they clip in the end of the pencil. But if it runs down, you just take out the little metal part. You pull the eraser up. Or if you run out completely, you just replace it because you always ran out of eraser before you ran out of pencil forever and always.

Beth [01:10:44] Yes, 100%. What is the smudging situation?

Sarah [01:10:47] Not. It's not.

Beth [01:10:50] And how have they done that.

Sarah [01:10:50] I don't know. It says it's a firm graphite. Maybe that has something to do with it. Now I'm not a left handed person. God bless the left hand people of which my youngest child is one. I can't speak to the black wing with a left-- although Felix uses them all the time too now that I think about it. It's not like the edge of his hand is black.

Beth [01:11:10] Okay, I'm going to order some and try it.

Sarah [01:11:12] You got to get some. We fight over them. And I'm a real protective of them because they ain't cheap. And so if I see one around somewhere I don't agree with, I'm like, hey, put those back in their containers. But I love them. I pulled out my old pencil holder from my bullet journal I haven't used in years so I can always have one of my black wing pencils with my bullet journal. I'm telling you, it's a really, really good pencil. They are not a sponsor of this podcast, although they should be. I'm just telling you, this is what changed me from a pen person to a pencil person and I like it better. I like being able to erase and correct.

Beth [01:11:44] So I've never been an either or a person. Every writing utensil container I've ever had has both pens and pencils in it because I like them both. I'm very moody about it. I love to sharpen a pencil. I feel like I'm really getting one over on the universe to be able to sharpen my pencil and use it again.

Sarah [01:12:00] With the black wing, you sharpen the wood and then there's a separate hole for the graphite.

Beth [01:12:03] Interesting.

Sarah [01:12:06] It's very interesting.

Beth [01:12:08] I will tell you that for Christmas this year-- Christmas is getting harder for me. The gifts are getting harder. We've talked about overconsumption before. It's getting harder to get gifts. So for a few people that I cared about, but I just didn't know what to get, I decided to do a little Beth's favorite things package.

Sarah [01:12:22] I think that's a great approach.

Beth [01:12:23] Thank you. I thought it was really, really fun. And one of the things that I put in there was my favorite set of pens from this year. And so we can link those if you'd like to see them. They are like fine liner pens; several different weights and I thought they were really fun to use. I think they glide across the page well. Like you said, they don't require a lot of pressure. They're very precise. So they're very fun. They're kind of a pen marker hybrid, which I tend to really like, but I'm definitely going to try your black wing suggestion and add that to my arsenal.

Sarah [01:12:51] Well, the situation with the pens is that I really just don't ever want to write with a black or blue pen again. If I'm using a pen, it's going to be colored. I want to color. I love a color.

Beth [01:13:02] Interesting. So are you a flare pen person?

Sarah [01:13:04] No. I use these Japanese pens. Listen, the Japanese and their stationery, I've been in a Japanese stationery store and let me tell you something, they take it real seriously in a way that I deeply appreciate. I have the set. It's like a rose. It is the prettiest ink. And it's like a teal. They are so beautiful. I will put also the link for these pens. I've been using them for years. I bet I've had them home for five years and I still use them pretty regularly. Again, if I'm writing with a pen, you better bring some creative energy. You know what I mean? I don't want a black or blue. I want a pretty color.

Beth [01:13:43] See, I always use a black or blue because I love to find old letters from family members and see their handwriting. And I worry that the colors are not going to hold up over time.

Sarah [01:13:56] I don't know about this. Is this true? Is this a thing I should be concerned about?

Beth [01:14:00] It's just a thing that I invented to be concerned about. Maybe someone will know the reality of it. But that's always my thought process. The sharpness of black ink on a piece of stationery. I want someone eventually to find like an old note that I wrote and think, well, that was lovely. And I remember her. And I'm worried that that won't happen if I use a rose colored ink.

Sarah [01:14:19] Well, we need to know the answer to that immediately.

Beth [01:14:21] It's important, right?

Sarah [01:14:22] Yeah, for sure. You're not going to pry rose coloring from my hands. I'm not giving them up.

Beth [01:14:28] I'm not trying to take it from you. I'm just telling you what [crosstalk].

Sarah [01:14:30] I don't even care. If I'm writing in my kids’ baby books and they're like, that'll fade in 50 years. I'll be like, whatever, I don't care. I love it so much. I also have highlighters that are Japanese. One side is a highlighter and the other side is more like a pen. So it is more like a marker pen hybrid, which I also enjoy a great deal. I like to align my highlighter color with my pen color. And then we're really woo hoo!

Beth [01:14:54] I just for Christmas gave myself a new pencil case, pencil bag, to keep all of my book related writing utensils. And so my highlighters are in there, my Post-it notes, my pens, my favorite ones. And it has like the very old Sesame Street characters on it. There's a teeny little Prairie Dawn and a little Big Bird, and it makes me so happy. I flew through my book about insurance because I was excited to sit down with my Sesame Street pencil bag as I read it.

Sarah [01:15:23] I have an entire book cart at this point where I keep all the books I'm reading and all my tools. I do. I like to have my tools, to have my reading glasses. I like to have my black wing pen and my new reading journal that you gave me. Like all in a place and I just drag it around wherever I am and I just love it. I can give my book cart a hug. I love books supplies. I love writing supplies. I love it all. See, look, this is why the phone is never going to get it done. It's just not. You got to have some tools. You got to have some tactile experiences and energy in your life.

Beth [01:15:57] I agree. I don't want to lose the analog tools for anything. They're my favorite.

Sarah [01:16:01] I have a feeling that we will maybe stumble upon some additional recommendations once our people listen to this segment.

Beth [01:16:08] It's tough to balance our overconsumption concerns with my love of school supplies.

Sarah [01:16:14] Listen, I don't think so and here's why. Because once you hit on the product that works, you buy less trying to solve the problem. I haven't bought pencils in-- I'm telling you we bought these when we went to shop. That was three years ago. Do you see what I'm saying?

Beth [01:16:31] That's pretty good.

Sarah [01:16:31] Like, once you click then you then you're like I don't got to keep hunting because I found the thing.

Beth [01:16:35] I also honestly, just to be truthful with you, do not feel bad about buying things that make things. If I'm creating something, I'm sending someone a note. Like I never feel bad when I buy stationery because that brings a lot of joy. That's magnificent consumption.

Sarah [01:16:50] There you go.

Beth [01:16:50] You pick up on magnificent giving; this is magnificent consumption.

Sarah [01:16:52] I love it. We can't wait to hear from all of you on this. Thank you for being with us. We will be on our regular schedule with our premium shows. Good Morning and More to Say on Monday because of Inauguration Day. I sort of misspoke and said I'd be off on Monday. That's a lie. I'll be there. Here on the main show we will be back in your ears on Tuesday to share our response to the second inauguration of Donald Trump. Until then, keep it nuanced y’all.

[01:17:14] Music Interlude.

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers:

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