The FTC Says No to Noncompetes

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • New Rules from the FTC with Elizabeth Wilkins

  • Outside of Politics: Packing

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:30] Hello, we're so glad that you're here with us for another new episode. Today, we're going to talk about the economy and specifically about employment. The Biden administration has used a bunch of different tools to try to improve the economy in the United States, and a lot of those efforts have been underway behind the scenes, because it takes a long time to do work in government through administrative agencies. And today, we want to talk about the Federal Trade Commission's decision to tell employers they can no longer limit the opportunities available to us when we want to leave them. Non-compete agreements have been a part of many contracts for people who do all kinds of work for a long time, and those non-compete clauses limit what you can do in the same field or in a certain geographic area, or in a certain time frame after you leave an employer.  

[00:01:14] And the Federal Trade Commission has said that really hampers economic opportunity and growth, and we don't want it to happen anymore. To guide us through this conversation, to talk about the policy and where it came from, we are so thrilled to have Elizabeth Wilkins here. She's a former Chief of Staff to the Chair of the Federal Trade Commission. So, she was part of making this change, and it's going to talk us through the arguments and how we got here. Now, we know that this regulation is being challenged in court. We know from the Supreme Court term that just wrapped up, that the courts are fairly hostile to administrative agencies doing big things like this. So, we'll see how that plays out. But either way, the policy argument here is really important. And even if the courts say that this is a step too far for the Federal Trade Commission-- which they may or may not, I don't know. But even if they do, we would like to be thinking about this in case Congress can step in and do this kind of work on behalf of the American people.  

[00:02:06] Before we get started, we're excited to be booking speaking engagements for the Fall. If your workplace or organization is struggling with conflict or wants to work on cohesion and connection, relationship building, emotional intelligence, communication, we would love to come spend time with you. Last year we visited Southeastern Louisiana University and we wanted to share what Doctor Lopez who invited us had to say. She said that we were thought provoking, that we sparked real conversations among faculty, staff and students, and that we offered a powerful reminder that diverse perspectives fuel understanding and growth. And my favorite part of what Doctor Lopez said is that we did it with humor and fun. That is really how we like to roll, and we love to show up in real life and connect with people in communities all over the country. So, if you would like to bring us to your university, school, workplace organization, please reach out Hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. Alise on our team is an absolute joy to work with. That is also part of the feedback we get 100% of the time. So, we would love for you to be in touch with her and let us know how we can come help. Up next, Elizabeth Wilkins.  

[00:03:08] Music Interlude.  

[00:03:17] Elizabeth Wilkins, we are so thrilled to have you here at Pantsuit Politics. I wonder if you could start out really big picture, because making an administrative role sounds really simple-- and is not at all, administrative law was my least favorite class in all of law school.  

Sarah [00:03:32] That's what I was about to say, it's the hardest class I took.  

Beth [00:03:36] It's so hard. So, can you give us just big picture? How does something like this non-compete policy come out? Where are we in the big process?  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:03:47] First of all, you have the right guest on. Because I loved administrative law because I'm a huge nerd. So, you have the right person.  

Beth [00:03:53] We need you. We're so glad you're here.  

Sarah [00:03:55] We are nerds. I think you might just be smarter. Don't get me started  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:03:59] Yeah.  

[00:04:01] To each her own. So how a bill becomes a law except the administrative state version? The idea is that if an administrative agency wants to create a policy that's going to be binding on people, that means it has people's rights and responsibilities change, then they have to use a lot of process. Because our idea in government is that whatever the action, there ought to be due process for people's rights and responsibilities. So, this is actually kind of a long endeavor. First, the agency comes up with an idea for what they want to do from wherever it is they want to do it. And they have expert policymakers in the agency. They might have economists, other kinds of folks, and they work up a policy and they put out a proposal. That proposal has to be pretty detailed. Every statute is different. So, they might have different specific requirements, but generally you have to write the actual thing. Here's what we would like to do. Then you have to do a lot of explanation to say, here's why we want to do it. Here's how it's going to affect people, here's the costs and the benefits to that.  

[00:04:58] And then there's a comment period. So, this is part of this due process here. That if this is going to be a major effect on your rights and responsibilities, you get a chance to comment. So, there's a notice and comment period. I think, generally, in administrative law it has to be about 30 days, but it's often longer. And anybody can submit a comment of whatever kind. And then the agency is required to consider every single one of those comments in deciding whether and how to promulgate a final rule. So, from start to finish, this is usually like a years and years long process. And finally, if the agency decides to finalize something, they put out the final rule. It has to be published so it's clear what it is. And, again, they have to explain themselves. Why did they do what they did? How did they consider all those comments, etc.?  

Sarah [00:05:44] I was struck when you were talking about the process that the policy makers submit this change. But I know that often the changes are being advocated for outside of the policymakers. So where was the impetus for this change? Because I think most Americans have probably heard of a non-compete, been under a non-compete, heard discussions about a non-compete. So, where did this come from?  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:06:10] You're exactly right. Non-compete is an issue that it's like a huge issue for a lot of people. I will just say the FTC received 26,000 comments on this rule, to give you a sense. And a lot of them were from individual workers, doctors, patients, small businesses, people who are directly affected. So, yes, this is an issue that's kind of widely understood, probably more so than a lot of federal government policies. This has been an issue that's been around for a while. Even before the Biden administration, the FTC and the DOJ had started looking at non-compete as an antitrust concern. I can't quite remember now, but probably five or six years ago, the FTC held its first expert convening with panels to just say, what are non-compete? How do they work? What are their effects? Is there something that the agencies should do? And at the same time, actually, we had this really interesting moment in research because at the same time, states were starting to do policymaking for the same reason. Because their constituents were concerned about it.  

[00:07:11] And so, over the last 10 or 15 years, a number of states created different policies to either ban non-competes or partially ban them etc., and this created an amazing kind of natural experiment for economists studying this issue to say, hey, here's two states that were right next to each other, one of them banned non-competes and the others didn't. Now, we can study was there an effect on people's wages? Was there an effect on business formation? Was there an effect on how many patents were filed? And so, at the same time that the agencies were starting to look at this, there was a field of research that started coming out and saying, hey, wait a second. It looks like these have huge economy wide effects rather than what individual people experience. So, I think those two things came together for the FTC to finally say, hey, this is an issue that affects a lot of people, that there's a really good research basis for, and that we've really thought about and think that our law appropriately applies to. Let's explore doing something.  

Beth [00:08:11] So I started out my career straight from law school in a law firm. And lawyers can't have non-competes. And the only non-competes that I worked on were non-competes that got litigated. So usually like C-Suite professionals. But that is a very skewed view of who is affected by non-compete. So, will you talk about some of the professions people might not be aware of, where people are under these obligations and why it has this massive economic impact? 

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:08:40] Yeah. Just to step back-- you're absolutely right. When people think of non-competes, they think of folks in the boardroom. You think, oh, we can see why maybe it would be really bad if the executive vice president or something rather, who knows a lot of stuff about this company goes to a competing business, that could be really bad for the business. Those are probably the people that have these non-competes in their contracts. And just to step back to be really clear about what these are, usually they're clauses that say you can't quit and go work for a competing business, and you can't quit and go start a competing business. And they usually have kind of a duration term and a geographic term. So, you can't go work somewhere else for a year within five miles of where this is or what have you.  

[00:09:28] It turns out-- and this was something that really shocked me when I started looking into this-- that we actually believe that one in five American workers has a non-compete clause. So that's 30 million employees. That's not in any way, shape, or form just the boardroom. I'll give you some examples. So, some really shocking ones are really low wage workers, hairdressers, security guards, sandwich makers, those type of folks. It also affects middle wage workers. So, a lot of journalists have non-compete clauses, tech engineers, those sorts of things. And then actually there's some higher wage workers that you wouldn't think of. They're definitely not boardroom people. There's a recent AMA (American Medical Association) study that says, I think somewhere between 40 and 50% of doctors have had non-compete clauses. So, these are extraordinarily widespread in the workplace.  

[00:10:24] I'll just tell you one story of a specific investigation that the FTC did with a security guard company. These were minimum wage security guards. And they had non-compete clauses that said they couldn't work for another security guard company within 100 miles of where they worked. And it was a company that actually did-- to your point, about where lawyers get involved, this company actually enforced those clauses. So, a minimum wage security guard would go try and get a job, one town over even and would get sued. And this was in Michigan. And one of these cases went to court, and the Michigan state court actually said, you know what? This is unconscionable. This is unenforceable. This is a terrible non-compete clause. And the company continued to put those clauses in their contracts and to threaten employees that they would be enforced.  

[00:11:19] So we really see it in places that you never would have thought. Does a security guard have proprietary information? Do you have extreme training that you've invested in this person? Absolutely not. And you see not only the way in which these clauses can just add to an employer's power, but also where even when the law protects those workers, there's sort of an interim effect to those clauses still staying in even when they shouldn't be there and even when they're unenforceable.  

Sarah [00:11:51] What else did you see during this common period? Like when you said hairdressers, I know I've had family members who were stuck in this buying where they had to gain experience for a licensing process and then got locked into a non-compete, even though they had to get the experience. It's like they had almost no choices. What other sort of interactions like that or other legitimate concerns did you see that came up in the comment period that kind of caught you off guard?  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:12:18] One thing I'll just say about hairdressers, which I think is really interesting because of that business model, there's a lot of hairdressers that we heard from who don't just want to go work for another salon. They gain experience and skills, then they build up a client base, and then they're really entrepreneurial. They want to be able to start a new business. And that was one story we heard over and over. I got good at what I do, and my clients love me, and I've always wanted to own my own thing. I've always wanted to run my salon my way. Or I want to cut hair in a way that works for my family. That's sort of independent, and I can set in my own hours and whatever. I've got into this business so that it can make it work for my lifestyle. And to hear those particular stories where people had developed this really great skill that was really appreciated, and they kind of had this very particular type of dream kind of quashed by the realization that they had a non-compete clause and they couldn't go practice their trade in their talent in this different way.  

[00:13:18] We also heard some things that I had not heard before that are maybe not the most common, but were sort of striking. So, we had at least one comment from somebody who said, my workplace has a Covid vaccine mandate and I don't believe in taking the vaccine. And so, I wanted to quit my job, but I had nowhere else to go because I had a non-compete. And so, I couldn't go get another similar job anywhere in my town. Or my employer was bought by another employer, and I have particular religious beliefs around what I can and can't do in the workplace. And when my employer was bought out, they changed their practices. And I don't believe in this stuff- whatever it was. But I can't go get a job somewhere else, of course, with my religious beliefs because of my non-compete clause.  

[00:14:05] I think that the vast majority of the stories that we heard were the typical, like, I have been working in this company for 10 years, I haven't gotten a raise. There is a job down the street that would pay me more because I have done X, Y, and Z for 10 years and I can't get that raise. Some of them were I work in an environment where I don't feel comfortable because of sexual harassment or other negative impacts of my kind of environment, but I can't go get a job somewhere else. And then some of them, we're three women here who all have families. Some of them were I had to get a new job for A, B or C reason, but I have to drive 100 miles now because I live in a relatively rural area and I need to find a place to work, and that means I don't get to see my kids at morning or at night. This is not a way for me to figure out how to make a living and also be the kind of parent or family member that I want to be.  

[00:14:59] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:15:07] How did we get to this point? Have the comments-- I'm assuming that there's been pushback from businesses. We know the Chamber of Commerce doesn't like this. When you hear that pushback, does it illuminate how we got to this place where even minimum wage security guards are having non-compete clauses put into their employment agreements?  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:15:26] There are two arguments that we hear all the time about why businesses need these clauses, and I think neither of them does a great job of explaining why we see such widespread use of these contracts. So, the first has to do with information. Usually, businesses say I need a non-compete clause because my employees are privy to confidential information of various kinds. And in order to protect that, I need to make sure that they don't go to my competitor and use that information. So, two things about that. One is for any employee, an employer has alternate tools for protecting that information. Nothing about this rule prevents employers for using non-disclosure agreements, which can cover all kinds of confidential information, regardless of whether it would be otherwise protected by law. And then, more fundamentally, there's trade secrets law in which companies can legitimately protect their trade secrets and they can sue an employee who divulges those trade secrets.  

[00:16:30] So, in general, the FTC found that employers had sort of less burdensome ways of protecting their information that didn't cause these really awful implications for employees. More broadly, to your point, the vast majority of the 30 million workers who must be working under these non-compete clauses don't have access to that kind of information. So, it just doesn't make sense, really at all that that would be a justification. The second thing that many employers raise is training, that they invest a lot in training their employees and that they wouldn't invest as much if they knew that their employees could just get up and leave. I also think that that's a real concern, especially where training is specialized and it takes a lot of money. Again, no, there are alternatives. So, this rule at least does not ban the use of training repayment agreements, although they may be of concern. That's an agreement where you say if I get training I'll have to repay my employer.  

[00:17:33] And then, of course, the alternative which I think everyone would agree is the best, is if you really want to keep your workers, then create a working environment where they want to stay. That's the benefit of competition to begin with, is that if you have to compete, then you have to make a better product. In this case, if you have to compete for your workers, then you have to create a better working environment. And that doesn't always mean you have to raise your costs by paying them more; although, obviously, that would be nice. It might also mean doing all the kinds of things that workers appreciate like, positive working environments, like flexibility, like benefits, whatever it is that makes a worker want to stay.  

Sarah [00:18:10] More money.  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:18:12] More money is a big one. Then that's what's going to make your workers stay. 

Sarah [00:18:17] So we do have this litigation though from the Chamber of Commerce. So where do you expect to see in the litigation? What's the timeline on that?  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:18:26] I will say the Chamber of Commerce, I think, filed a lawsuit within 24 hours of the rule being finalized. I was actually sort of amazed. I saw a quote from someone from the Chamber of Commerce saying, "No matter what this rule looks like, before it's finalized, we will sue." Which to me was a little amazing. I understand we can all have differences of opinion, but to me that was sort of mythic. Doesn't matter what analysis they put in doesn't matter how thoughtfully they responded to the comments. Doesn't matter the outpouring of concern about this issue that we have seen over the past year and a half, we're going to sue, when in fact, they did within 24 hours. I don't know the exact timeline, but I will say I expect this to-- my guess would be they're hoping that it gets enjoined, that it's not able to go into effect ever. So that they would look for an injunction before the effective date, which was 120 days after the rule was finalized, and that they would hope to litigate this out before it ever takes effect. So, we could be looking at years of litigation.  

[00:19:31] I've read the chambers complaint. They make a number of arguments. They paint a really different picture of employment than the one we've been discussing here. They talk a lot about, well, these are contracts that work for employers and work for employees. They are bargained for. The employee might get greater compensation, etc. And I think that just doesn't jive with most Americans experience of the employment relationship in the workplace. When you look for a new job and you need your salary, and you leave your old job and you start and you get a stack of HR paperwork, and maybe you know what's in there and you sign it. Maybe you don't. Maybe you know, but you don't have a choice because you already quit your old job and you need this one.  

[00:20:19] And maybe you just don't appreciate what this is going to be like for your life afterwards. Or as I've also heard, maybe you know exactly what this non-compete clause means and you don't want it, but the employer has no reason to take it out for you. And the employer down the street is going to have one, too. So, you don't have a lot of options. So, we'll see how the lawsuit plays out. I think that the FTC has a really strong case that it has the statutory authority to do this, that it has the history and the evidence to be able to do this. And certainly, it has the record of the over 26,000 comments. Over 25,000 of them supported a categorical ban on non-compete clauses. It is something that people really want.  

Beth [00:21:03] That argument that it's negotiated and bargained for, sounds like C-Suite. Again, back to the boardroom. The kind of people who actually negotiate their employment contract and could say you're going to have to put in more salary if you want it to last this long or whatever. Did you hear from those types of professionals in the notice and comment period? And did they also support a categorical ban?  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:21:27] We did hear from both those types of employees and also from lawyers who do that kind of contract work. And there were comments that said, hey, these ones are more complicated. Sometimes for employees of this stature, they're represented by counsel. They get something in return, whether it's more salary or something like that. And also, overall, these compensation packages are a lot more complicated. And so, the final rule actually changed a little bit for senior executives to take that special arrangement into account. For senior executives, which the rule defines, it says, you know what? Those contracts can stay in effect. We're not going to undo them. We understand that they were complex, that they may have been bargained for, that the employee might have gotten something in return. So those non-compete can say in effect, but you can't do any more of them. You can't make any new ones.  

[00:22:21] So the idea was, we get it. Those ones are complicated. They're going to be harder to unwind. The employee might actually like it. The individual employee might actually like it, but we can't do any in the future. And here's one of the reasons. The FTC actually isn't a labor agency, right? It's a competition agency; although, it cares about competition in the labor market, which is most of what we've been talking about. But it also cares about competition in the product or service market. That is, can you make your product cheaper, better? Can you support innovation, etc.? And a lot of the findings were that non-compete clauses actually are bad for the product market and for consumers as well because they dampen new business formation and innovation and might raise prices. And the folks that you might most expect to go start a new business are these kinds of high-level employees.  

[00:23:12] People with business acumen are the ones who are probably most likely to say, hey, I actually have a better way to do whatever. And so, I'm going to do it over here. And we actually see, particularly in tech and biotech, some of the most successful startups are ones that are spin offs of old companies. Because they have some amount of know how. They already have an idea of how they want to do it better. And so, it's really important. Even if those C-Suite execs were able to bargain for their non-compete and feel satisfied that they got a bump in salary, it's still bad for consumers that they're trapped in their workplace and can't go make a new, more innovative product, etc. so we really care about those non-compete as well, but the FTC took those comments to heart and said, all right, we should probably make a slightly different role for these ones, make it less complicated and make it less disruptive. We will get to the place that we want to, which is a more dynamic labor market even for these higher tiers, but we'll go slower for them because the current harm isn't quite as acute.  

Sarah [00:24:14] I love that that you're not a labor organization. You're concerned with competition. And so, what other policies do you think would make the work place more competitive beyond non-compete agreements, which seems like that does seem like low hanging fruit right there in the name for an agency [inaudible]. 

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:24:32] Right there in the name.  

Sarah [00:24:33] The right there in the name for an agency concerned with competition. But what other practices and policies do you think would contribute to a more fair labor market?  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:24:46] I'm just going to go nerd out for a second again. One thing that I find really interesting is that the original Fair Labor Standards Act-- which is the rule that Congress passed like 100 years ago to set a federal minimum wage-- in its statement of policies, it says that-- well, it's sort of like why do we care as a national policy about bad working conditions, i.e. substandard wages? One of them is it's an unfair method of competition. The idea that companies are competing by kind of trapping their workers in with really poor wages and really bad conditions to save money, isn't good for anybody. And that was their justification for setting a minimum wage floor. So, I'm getting to your question. I think it's really important to see the combination of competition agencies and labor agencies working together to make sure that competition in the labor market makes sense.  

[00:25:43] The Labor Department came out with a new misclassification rule to try and make sure that employees are actually being treated as employees and getting all the benefits and wages that they're owed. So that's putting a floor under the competition. And then this non-compete rule kind of says, and let's make sure that all of the benefits of competition, when employers are trying to woo the best employees, accrue, in fact, to the workers. So above minimum wage, you can bid up your wages, you can look for the best workplace to work for, etc. I think the combination of those two things, both setting a floor and making the competition healthy for workers, is really important. We're also seeing both the FTC and the DOJ antitrust division doing a lot more examination of competition in the labor market and mergers. So that's one company acquires another.  

[00:26:36] This can be a huge problem. And if, for example, there's only two companies in town-- often, for example, like hospitals-- only two hospitals in town, they want to merge. If you look at the labor market, that means there's only one employer. That doesn't even matter if they have non-competes anymore. Even if they don't, you'd have to leave town to be able to look for a better job. So, I think more vigorous antitrust enforcement generally in the labor market will help make sure that there are more options for workers that they can bid up their wages, that they can find workplaces that work for their families. So, I think all of these things combined are really good.  

Beth [00:27:14] And it seems important. I mean, I've spent a fair amount of time with people who would make the Chamber of Commerce argument and they would say, you're speaking about extremes. For the vast majority of people, it's not this bad. But I feel like we are living in a very extreme time as it relates to competition and especially competition in the labor market. So, I read a piece this morning from Axios about how the combination of infrastructure and talent and the ability to make semiconductor chips means that big tech will become more like nation states over time. And then on the other side of the spectrum, SNL just did this fantastic spoof of ordering $2 pumps from an overseas manufacturer with all of these abhorrent labor practices. And the tagline was just like, "Don't worry about it." But it really illustrates we are living in a very extreme time as to how people are willing to continue to grow and make money. So, I just appreciate the work that you're doing to keep an eye on all of this.  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:28:21] Well, thank you. I'm going to have to go find that SNL skit now.  

Sarah [00:28:23] It's good.  

Beth [00:28:24] We'll send it to you.  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:28:26] Perfect. I just think that's right. we're living in a time overall where there's growing prosperity, but there's also growing inequality. And some of that is because we're living in a moment where we can squeeze more and more and more out of the people who are trying to do the producing. And so, the thing that I love about the non-compete rule, even for folks who are understandably concerned about overregulation by government, this is a regulation that doesn't require a whole lot of businesses except to delete a clause from their contracts. This is not telling them how to run their business. This is not structuring their workplace. It's just saying this is a bind that you're not allowed to put on your workers. And that one little thing just allows for so much more range of movement and autonomy for so many people who have so little ability to bargain for themselves. To me, that's sort of a no brainer. If you care about liberty of contract, if you care about autonomy, this is actually something that you might really care about, because we know that workers and employers don't usually have the same amount of bargaining power. And this is a very small intervention that can really change that balance.  

Sarah [00:29:40] Well, thank you so much. Thank you for your work on this. Thanks for coming in and explaining and talking to us about it. We really, really appreciate it.  

Elizabeth Wilkins [00:29:47] My pleasure. Thanks so much.  

[00:29:48] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:29:57] On our minds Outside of Politics this summer is travel and specifically packing. And I feel like there are different categories of packing that we need to talk about, Sarah. So, I know you are doing a big international trip this summer. When you think about international travel, what is your packing philosophy? I know you have one.  

Sarah [00:30:18] Listen to this. So, we're going to Japan and they'll ship your suitcase around for you so you don't have to haul it. It's like a big service they provide there. You just go to your hotel front desk and say like, well, I'm going to Hokkaido, and they'll just send your suitcase separately. Discuss. Why don't we do that everywhere?  

Beth [00:30:37] I think that is the most valuable service for if you want more tourism that you could possibly prefer.  

Sarah [00:30:43] Right?  

Beth [00:30:43] Attention towns and states in America that want people to travel more. That would be a great thing for Kentucky to do, because we have all these wonderful sites to visit that are kind of spread out. It would be so great if we could find ways to make it easier to come to our state and hit all those spots.  

Sarah [00:30:58] And I say that only because where you're going matters, and it changes my travel philosophy pretty dramatically. Are you going somewhere hot? Are you going somewhere where I was last summer that was cold. But I will say that, for the most part, we do not check luggage- almost ever. We have five people, so we have plenty of carry-ons capacity. And we have two really awesome Cotopaxi backpacks that zip open and lay flat like a suitcase, which is key, that I will link in the show notes, that we use, that we like. Because whether you're in Japan or France, anywhere outside the United States, anything on wheels is going to be a little difficult. There's a lot of stairs. Not a lot of easy ways to roll things, get things in and out of trains or mass transit.  

[00:31:56] And so, usually we have the two Cotopaxis and one rolling suitcase. I almost always book places that have washer/dryers so that we don't have to pack as many clothes. So, we're doing laundry on the trips. And you know that usually does it. We do use packing cubes. I don't have a great approach. I don't feel like I'm fully hacked or got my system down for the kids and how that works. It's an ever-moving target. But I do believe in laundry. And you and I had a debate because my big thing is I do all the laundry before I come back. I don't bring back any dirty clothes. I don't like to do laundry when I get back. It's the unpacking that is key.  

Beth [00:32:45] And my feeling is it is dirty if it has been in a suitcase.  

Sarah [00:32:49] This is so funny.  

Beth [00:32:50] I do not want to put something from a suitcase into a drawer. I must wash it again when I get home.  

Sarah [00:32:56] Why do you hate suitcases? what is this vision of a suitcase you have?  

Beth [00:33:00] I don't know, but it's unshakable. This is one of those things my feet are planted here and I think they're probably not moving.  

Sarah [00:33:06] Well, maybe it's because the feet-- maybe it's because your shoes are in there.  

Beth [00:33:09] Maybe. Even bags that my shoes are not in, though, I don't want to put anything in the drawer. It really bothers me. I try not to pack things that are dry clean only because I so badly want to take everything out of the suitcase and put it in the washing machine.  

Sarah [00:33:22] That's so funny.  

Beth [00:33:23] Whether I wore it or not, it's just the thing I do. And I think it is kind of a closure point of the trip for me too. I bring the suitcase in; I open it in my laundry room. I don't even bring it to the bedroom. I put everything immediately into the washer. We just line our suitcases up in there and empty into the washer, through the dryer, back into the drawers, fresh and clean. We're starting over again. I love packing cubes. I feel like that changed life for me, because the packing cube also reinforces the helpful internet packing lists that I will deviate from if I don't have some constraints on. I love to say, like, I'm going to be gone this long and get a recommendation. Okay, three pairs of pants, four shirts, whatever. I find that really helpful. But then I totally disregard it if left to my own devices. And the packing cubes impose some discipline on me to keep it at about that size. I think not at all about my kids, though, because I've decided they're big enough to pack themselves. That's a skill that they need in life. I give them suggestions, but I mostly say, you're responsible for this.  

Sarah [00:34:30] No, I don't mean I pack for them. I mean, I haven't quite hacked each of them getting a packing cube or how to fit them, who to put together in what suitcases. That's what I mean. Putting those pieces together hasn't quite worked out because we have an odd number of kids, and Griffin's basically an adult-- at least his stuff is adult-sized. He's not an adult, but his clothes are. And so, that's going to complicate things I think as we pack for Japan. Also, I'm a notoriously over packer. I like to dress up on trips. I like to dress to impress the town I'm in. I want Paris to think I look pretty. That's just the long and short of it. I'm also definitely bringing back clothes because they're my favorite souvenirs, so I usually have my own suitcase because I'll just need space and I want to look cute. So that's a part of it too. But other, I think, important piece of packing is do you unpack when you get there?  

Beth [00:35:23] Yes.  

Sarah [00:35:24] I do, too.  

[00:35:24] I don't care if I'm staying in a hotel for 12 hours. I will put everything in a drawer, in a closet and my toiletries up, and put the suitcase out of the way.  

Beth [00:35:31] My favorite thing about traveling alone, like, for business trips, is being able to roll into a room with double beds and just spread my clothes for the next day out on the extra bed. It feels so luxurious to me.  

Sarah [00:35:43] I don't do that. I don't want to look at it. I want the clutter to be away.  

Beth [00:35:49] I think this is related to my feeling about suitcases, because I feel that spreading out it gets some air and some life and some distance from the suitcase.  

Sarah [00:35:58] You have some real emotions about your clothes experience inside a suitcase that is fascinating to me.  

Beth [00:36:04] I do.  

Sarah [00:36:06] Now, I will say usually when it's just me, I do not use packing cubes. I learned a technique a long time ago that has served me really well where you take-- I guess you could do this in a packing cube, but I take any dresses, anything I don't want to super wrinkle, I lay across the suitcase. I roll up everything else, I place it, and then I fold the stuff over the rolled, belongings. And that's a system I've used for a very long time. I feel like you can pack more. I feel like things don't get as wrinkled. I really like it. I even have one of those really cool bags that was on Oprah's Favorite Things list, where it's like a garment bag, but then it zips up into a carrying bag. I've shown it to you, I love it. Now, I don't use it for flying because I'm not carrying it through the airport, but when I'm driving somewhere, I really love it.  

Beth [00:36:52] It is a really different configuration for me when I'm flying versus when I'm driving. And like you said, like, where am I going? How long am I going to stay there? But I have kind of gotten to the products that I like for each of those kinds of trips. Like this is the bag that I prefer for the plane. This is the bag I prefer when I drive. This is my weekend bag. But I use the packing cubes every time for all of it, doesn't matter how long I'm going to be gone because I find them so helpful. My try to minimize wrinkles technique is using a dry cleaner's plastic bag over anything that I'm worried about wrinkling in the bag. I don't know why that seems to help so much, but it does.  

Sarah [00:37:30] I've also just switched to a new toiletries bag, like, the hanging one. I had just a big bag that I put things in. But the hanging situation where there's like different sections to organize, it has really changed things. And Nicholas got this bag from his coworkers that I stole, where the sections like slide in and out so you can remove a section. Do you know what I'm talking about? They kind of fold up, but they have a big hanger and you hang them on a hook and they fold out. And this one I'll put a link in the show notes to this one too. You can take a section out or move them around and put them in different orders. And so, I have make-up in one, dental stuff in one, face stuff in one. And I really do try to just have duplicates. When I have to remember to put something in the toiletries bag, it ends badly. And so, I really try to have duplicates of everything. So, I just take my toiletry bag and I'm ready to go.  

Beth [00:38:23] Here's an important question. You said you like to buy clothes when you're traveling. Are you a person who takes an extra bag to bring on your way home?  

Sarah [00:38:31] Yeah. I have one that zips down flat and I keep it in my other bag, which I guess I should talk about too, which is my carry-on backpack. So, I have a suitcase, and then I have the you're-- I don't know what would we call that.  

Beth [00:38:46] The personal item.  

Sarah [00:38:47] The personal Item.  

Beth [00:38:48] The one that gets underneath the seat in front of you on the plane. Yeah.  

Sarah [00:38:51] And much like my toiletries bag, the personal item just stays packed. So, my personal item has a zip-up bag with a tied pin and an extra pair of sunglasses and melatonin in case I forget it. Just a bunch of extra stuff, some snacks. It has my little cord organizer with all the cords that I also have duplicates. I don't pack cords anymore. I just have that in there. It has my extra bag. It has my iPad keyboard in case I want to turn my iPad into a laptop and it has my window cady. Have you seen my window caddy in action?  

Beth [00:39:24] I have. Listen, I have not only seen your window caddy, I was with you when a flight attendant saw it and came over and traced it so she could go home and trace herself one.  

Sarah [00:39:34] You guys, this window caddy, it slides into the airplane window. Anyway, way just going to have to click the link and look at just to understand. And it'll hold a drink, it'll hold your cell phone, and hold your glasses, and hold a pen. And the first time I pulled it out, the flight attendants were obsessed. They came over. Every time I've used it, somebody's been, like, what is that? Where did you get it? It's freaking phenomenal. And it folds down flat. And so, I just leave it in that bag. I also have one of those little things you put on the handle of your suitcase. It'll hold your coffee. Listen, I like all this travel stuff. Those BuzzFeed roundups that are, like, 25 travel products you need. I click them every time, and I probably buy something every time. And there's not a lot that are complete duds.  

[00:40:12] Often, they are great and they do make it better. It just depends on how much you actually want to carry. But a travel pillow, all that I have in my personal item bag that stays packed too. Especially when we were traveling a lot for work, I just try to get to a point where it was like I decided what I wanted to wear, because that takes me long enough as it is, because I really like when I pack-- back to our original question-- I want every single piece of clothing I pack to work with more than one thing. You know what I mean? I don't want a single use item. I want a white button up, a chambray shirt. I want a black pair of pants. I want stuff that goes in a million different ways. And so, that takes me long enough to put together every time. I didn't want have to be doing anything else as far as cords or toiletries, etc.  

Beth [00:41:00] For business travel, the first decision I make is black or navy, and then I go from there because I want to do the same thing. I want to have a jacket that I can wear with different tops and one pair of jersey shoes or whatever. I want everything to kind of flow. I take a real capsule approach to business trip packing, and that black or Navy decision is the key.  

Sarah [00:41:23] And it's always so fun because I feel like I put together outfits I wouldn't have put together at home because I'm limited and I have to be creative. And I think it's super fun. Now, I'm not like those ladies on TikTok turning a skirt into a mini dress. I'm like, nobody does that. That is only for TikTok. They did that in the 90s in the women's magazines, but nobody actually pulls the skirt up and makes it a strapless dress, okay?  

Beth [00:41:42] And I am looking for things that feel very, very easy to me. Not that feel like a stretch.  

Sarah [00:41:49] Yeah.  

Beth [00:41:50] That's why I like travel products too. I like things that were designed for the purposes that I'm using them for. I am always in search of a bag. And Instagram has learned this about me, that I love bags. And so, I bought the Foldie. Has Instagram tried to get you to buy the Foldie?  

Sarah [00:42:04] No.  

Beth [00:42:05] It's just a travel bag. But what's nice is that it is buy one, get one. They fold completely flat and it is super easy to put the extra bag inside the one bag, so that if you're out and you get more things, your extra bag is there ready to bring them home.  

Sarah [00:42:21] I'm also known to ship things. Scotland and Ireland had too many 365 day a year sweater stores, and I had to send some home. And I didn't feel bad about it either. I needed those sweaters. They needed me. I needed them. Every time I put them on, I think about Ireland or Scotland. So, sometimes I've been known to ship it home. I'm just going to be honest with you.  

Beth [00:42:41] Well, I think that we have assembled some good recommendations here. I think our show notes are going to be complex because we have a lot to put in them. And we would love all of your travel product recommendations or any packing hacks that you have discovered that are life changing.  

Sarah [00:42:53] It'll definitely be better than any BuzzFeed roundup, I can tell you that much.  

Beth [00:42:58] Thanks so much to Elizabeth Wilkins for being with us today. We hope our conversation was helpful to you as you think about antitrust law and non-competes, and all the ways that our government can work on a better economy. We hope you have the best week available to you. We'll be back with you on Friday for a new episode of The Nuanced Life.  

[00:43:12] Music Interlude. 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family.  

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

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