FAFSA and the Brokenness of College Admissions

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Tentative Ceasefire Negotiations in Gaza

  • FAFSA Complications with Sara Bittner

  • Outside of Politics: Summer Aspirations.

CORRECTION: The Pell Grant does not run out. There are lifetime limits per student on the Pell Grant and basically every other grant that exists is first-come, first-served, but not Pell. Pell is always available. We are in the process of omitting this statement from the episode and will also correct it on Friday's episode.

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:00:29] Thank you so much for joining us today. We are officially in graduation season, which means a lot of high schoolers are making big decisions about where to spend the next chapter of their lives. But the gantlet of college admissions has become more complicated and pressure-filled in recent years. And this year it got even worse because of what our listener Susan called, "The absolute debacle that is FAFSA for this year" FAFSA is the Free Application for the Federal Student Aid, and it's what nearly every college student fills out to determine their eligibility for financial aid and what their final sticker price will be at the school of their choice. And we have called Sara Bittner, a longtime listener and co-founder of Launch Education Advisors, to talk us through all of this. And so you'll be hearing from her in the main segment of the show. But before we get started, we're going to check in on the news, particularly the conflict in Gaza, protests surrounding the conflict of Gaza, and the Trump trial. And as always, we will end the show with what's on our mind Outside of Politics. I'm going to talk about summer aspirations.  

Beth [00:01:23] Before we do that, if you missed it, our newsletter has officially made its move over to Substack. We really have appreciated seeing so many of you joining us there. The first post is linked in the show notes, so you can check it out. Now that we're on Substack, it is easy to access the archive of old newsletters. So far we have everything from 2024 there. We'll be moving the last several years over there in time, and we are just so happy to have more of a community element around the newsletter. That there's more space for you to discuss the things that we're chatting about on the show and in the newsletter. Plus, this is a great way to support the work we do here if you're not interested in our premium audio shows. Substack does have a paid option. Our most recent newsletters will always be available for free, but you can upgrade to paid to get access to some additional community engagement features and more of our archive as we move it over there. Means the world to us that some of you have already signed up to support us there, especially during this time when the business of podcasting is very, very tough. So thank you so much for your support.  

Sarah [00:02:23] Up next, we're going to catch up with the news.  

[00:02:24] Music Interlude.  

[00:02:33] Beth, as we are recording on Monday, it is a very fluid situation with regards to the war in Gaza. Hamas is announcing publicly that it has agreed to a cease fire negotiation. Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu's administration is saying this is not the negotiation we agreed upon. So by the time you're listening to this episode, we have no idea what will have happened with regards to this cease fire negotiation. Either the agreed upon one, or a new one, or some combination of the two.  

Beth [00:03:12] Yeah. My understanding is that Hamas has a framework from Egypt and Qatar that they are saying that they would be acceptable to them, and Israel had put a separate offer on the table. And so everyone is reviewing right now. The United States is reviewing, Israel is reviewing. But it remains a precarious situation because this happens against the backdrop of morning headlines where Israel was telling 100,000 people to evacuate from Rafah to prepare for an invasion.  

Sarah [00:03:44] And increasing international pressure to reach a ceasefire. The intense conversations. I feel like that's downplaying what's happening between the United States and Israel, including pauses on ammunition orders. But this intensity in this will change our relationship if you move forward with this invasion in Rafah, then the public announcement of Rafah, then the Hamas seemingly being motivated somehow with this public announcement, their public announcement. And, again, this is only what we know publicly. This is only what has surfaced to the level that we are all reading about it in the paper, online. So Lord only knows what's happening under the surface. Of course, this is happening the same day that former President Donald Trump is back on trial. He's been found in contempt of court for a 10th time. But this is what I wanted to talk to you about, because this combination of the two stories is so frustrating to me. Because at the same time that he seems to be evading any responsibility for his administration's role in this conflict for even taking a position-- it's like he doesn't even force to talk about it. Which is frustrating to me because it feels like so many of these pro-Palestinian protests that have been happening for months-- I don't just mean the campus protests, I mean the protests at DNC events and the protest in front of Anthony Blinken's house. The articulated line is we don't want to have to choose between the lesser of two evils. But I don't understand why he is not put under any pressure to make a stance, to say how he feels, to do anything around this conflict. And the conflict and the protest surrounding them seem to be pushing this very important trial and his behavior inside the trial (not to mention his behavior that is on trial) out of the news cycle. And it's driving me insane.  

Beth [00:05:56] I think however you feel about the protests related to Gaza, it's almost indisputable that Donald Trump benefits from them. It is also just a fact that we have more control over the next presidential election than we have over what Israel and Hamas come to terms on. And I agree with you, I find it frustrating that Trump is never asked a very hard question because he refuses to give any kind of real answers. So it's like he always gets to define the terms of the debate. But the truth is that much of the world that the Biden administration has inherited was formed during the Trump years. You can make that connection to Ukraine, you can make it to Israel, and we just aren't making it because it's complicated and because Trump is so unwilling to contend seriously with policy. Yeah. And because there's so much volume around the accusations against him, not just in this trial, but in the other jurisdictions where he's been charged with crime, it's like we give up on trying to stay with the details of that.  

Sarah [00:07:08] And the two more amorphous components that really fill me with rage, if I'm being honest, it is the first part is that he-- Ezra Klein has this great conversation about shamelessness in American culture, and how once you apologize then it's like you've admitted wrongdoing. Which is a terrible because this is not what we want for people. That's not a path to redemption or to any sort of conversation. But he has monopolized that shamelessness. And so he's never forced to reckon with his role. Meanwhile, people in other aspects of the American government try and act in good faith. And then that just tightens the constriction. Like it just makes them more responsible, more guilty in people's eyes. So he benefits from this shamelessness. And he benefits from these protests because any sort of protest, any sort of action that feels like disorder, disquiet to people, feeds his image of like a strongman that's going to come in and enforce law and order. Even though I don't even think that's true. It doesn't matter. He's built that brand. And it's also attached to the Republican Party generally. That this sense of, like I said, disorder benefits him as well. It's like heads he wins, tails we lose. I know it's so incredibly frustrating when the stakes are this high when you are talking about a massively impactful conflict, and the suffering of thousands and thousands of people in a hugely important part of the world. And it's infuriating.  

Beth [00:09:07] A theme, I think, around some of that we don't have to choose the lesser of two evils, we're tired of all of it, is a sense. But as to American foreign policy, it doesn't matter if Trump or Biden is the president. And I just fundamentally reject that. And I think that what's unfolding in Gaza right now is heartbreaking. I don't think there was a scenario post October 7th or even before where what was unfolding in Gaza wasn't going to be heartbreaking. And I think that's something that if America alone had the power to solve it, we would have already. The difference between an administration that has been very careful and measured in all of its public statements, that has tried to exert pressure on Israel while also giving Israel the pressure release of support, while also helping Israel defend itself against a direct attack from Iran, is oceans from a Donald Trump presidency. Where if he had been in office on October 7th, we would have heard a constant drumbeat about radical Islamic terrorism. Netanyahu would feel no pressure to do anything to in any way to temper his response. And so as bad as things are, they absolutely could be a lot worse. And a change in administration as dramatic as the one that former President Trump is proposing when the world is in a precarious place, it matters a lot. And I just really reject the notion that it doesn't.  

Sarah [00:10:45] Yeah. I don't say any of that to just say, oh, well, that means everybody needs to sit down and be quiet. I think these protests are holding so much at one time. They are holding how people feel about college. They're holding how people feel about Covid. They're holding how people feel about their grief and anxiety about the state of the world they're inheriting. And that includes this conflict in the Middle East and among many other things. And so I think that just seeing that, though, in the way it is playing out to his benefit is so hard. And I think when you're having a political protest, that has to be part of the calculus. How does this play out in a presidential year? And I think that especially we have conversations with our friends and family about these protests, I think we have to keep all that in mind to keep acknowledging what's happening and the valid emotions included in that. And some assessment of the political reality and a hold all that intention is really, really hard.  

Beth [00:11:53] Well, and being clear-eyed about what our options are in the thing that we can vote on, because I think that Donald Trump would not have hesitated where he in office right now to send the National Guard to Columbia. So if you're uncomfortable with the responses colleges have had so far, dial that up to a thousand with Trump in office. And we don't have to guess at that, he's telling us. He recently did an interview with time magazine. He said one of the lessons he learned was that he waited too long for permission for things like using the National Guard in local matter. He said, you're supposed to wait for governors or mayors or whatever, but next time I'm not going to. I mean, he's telling us how he will handle this. So if it feels chaotic right now, he will only increase the chaos.  

Sarah [00:12:39] We want to talk about another chaotic situation regarding college. Up next, we're going to talk with Sarah Bittner, a college admissions counselor, about the very, very broken college admissions process and how a crisis with the FAFsA application has contributed to that.  

[00:12:57] Music Interlude.  

[00:13:05] Sara, thank you so much for coming to the Pantsuit Politics. Will you please introduce yourself to the audience?  

Sara Bittner [00:13:10] My name is Sarah Bittner, and I am an independent education consultant based in the Netherlands. And basically what that means is I help high school students on their journey onwards after high school either at college, junior college, something else. So we try to just help kids along the way because that next step can be kind of scary and stressful.  

Sarah [00:13:34] In a normal year. We'll get to that. In the spirit of disclosure, the last time we had a conversation about college admissions, Sara emailed us and said, oh my gosh, this is what I do for a living. Let me tell you even more about what's going on. And I was like, wait, tell me what you do? And she was like, oh, well, I help families with college admissions. And I was like because I've seen a lot of my friends with older children in the college admissions process and thought, this does not look pleasurable. Could I do something different? And you were like, well, yeah. I mean, you can hire a consultant and you pay me the same whether you hire me Griffin's freshman year or junior year. And I was like, oh, well, sold. So Sara is consulting for our family and it has been a phenomenal experience so far. I saw my friends and their kids, and it just creates so much stress inside the relationship. And you just read something-- and again, this is a normal year. This is before this year where you just read colleges admissions is a pressure cooker. It's so stressful, blah, blah, blah.  

Sara Bittner [00:14:37] Normal year? I haven't had one of those yet.  

Sarah [00:14:38] I know, right? So, yeah, this is what I was thinking about before Covid, which really upset the process. And every year I think, okay, we've gotten through some of the Covid disruption. This is going to start to level out. I'm sure you were also telling yourself a very similar narrative.  

Sara Bittner [00:14:57] A hundred percent.  

Sarah [00:14:58] So this was not the year that proved to be true. Things have not-- how do we say? Leveled out. I mean we are getting emails from listeners are like, this is a horror. Everything is broken.  

Sara Bittner [00:15:10] The counselors are also having similar message boards.  

Sarah [00:15:15] I bet. And, again, this is not just about the families. This is going to impact everything. This isn't just about this is stressful. I mean, we just mentioned in a previous segment--   

Sara Bittner [00:15:25] [Crosstalk] previous year either. 

Sarah [00:15:25] Yeah, this previous segment how the biggest division in American voters is college education and non-college education. So when you're talking about a broken college admissions process, this is going to have repercussions. So tell us what is happening right now.  

Sara Bittner [00:15:40] Okay, a few years ago there was legislation passed to redo FAFSA. So it's the Free Application for Federal Student Aid, FAFSA. Before they redid the system, before this year, the application was so complicated it would take people literal days to fill out the form. And the FAFSA form had become a graduation requirement in certain states. So there are some states that do not allow you to graduate high school unless you have filled out the FAFSA.  

Sarah [00:16:17] What? Okay.  

Sara Bittner [00:16:19] Yeah. And there is also scholarship money attached. So there are several colleges who say we will give you $1,000 a year if you fill out FAFSA, which is easy money, you just fill out the form and you get $1,000. Great. And the good thing was, it's free. It was supposed to be accessible for everybody, but what it was turning into was that it was just another really complicated tax form. People didn't want to fill it out. It was a real barrier to access. And the thing about the FAFSA is you also needed to fill that out to get the Pell Grants. So Pell grants are a government program to help the most needy families who are typically least informed on these forms. So there are public schools, there are community outreach programs to help these families through the form because it was so complicated. Normally, FAFSA opens in October. This year we already knew it was going to be delayed until December. They said December 1st, we'll have it ready. It's a two month delay, but trust us, it'll be worth it. And everybody said, okay, what other choice do we have? So December 1st comes and goes. They said, we're doing our best. It will be on shortly. Okay. So everybody is wondering when is it coming, when is it ready? When is it coming? Finally at the end of December-- so this is your Christmas New Year's week. Obviously, at the time you want to be filling out complicated tax forms. At the end of the year when you've already spent a lot of money on Christmas. And then you have to go look at your finances again and the system would be on for 30 minutes and then shut down for hours at a time.  

Sarah [00:18:49] Oh, no. And I'm assuming you would lose everything you've done up until that point. Or did it depend?  

Sara Bittner [00:18:53] Some people would, some people wouldn't. It was really inconsistent. And at the beginning, it also required both Social Security numbers for your parents. So if you are a dreamer, for example, and your parents are undocumented, they don't have documents, so they do not have a Social Security number, and you could not get past that step in the form, so they had to go back. They did fix it eventually. But, again, we're talking about the most needy students and time is of the essence. While they're waiting for this correction, there's more people filling out the FAFSA. So then in January, it becomes more or less functional for families to fill it out. But once the families fill it out, that information needs to be sent to the colleges. Because not only does the federal government award you aid based on that number that form creates, the colleges also get that number and then they also provide you with aid in theory.  

Sarah [00:20:03] And then I'm assuming the most needy students need a combination of both.  

Sara Bittner [00:20:07] Yeah. Most of the time. So colleges are still waiting. Colleges do not have complete FAFSA information for their incoming class. Traditionally, the deadline to make your decision for where you're going to college is May 1st. Many colleges have extended that deadline. A lot of them have extended it to either May 15th, June 1st, June 15th. So they're pushing it back and back and back. But some colleges, the most selective, they're saying, tough nuggies!  

Sarah [00:20:40] Oh, my gosh.  

Sara Bittner [00:20:41] We have enough people. And if you don't want to come, that's fine. We'll just enter people off the waitlist and they will come.  

Beth [00:20:48] Can I just recap for a second to make sure I'm tracking all of this as a person who's not in this morass at all yet. So tell me if I've got it. Department of education in an attempt to make the FAFSA saner, redoes it.  

Sara Bittner [00:21:02] Yes.  

Beth [00:21:06] But because technology is involved, there are delays and problems and private contractors, and this is a huge program. We're talking what 90% of college students are getting financial aid of some variety.  

Sara Bittner [00:21:23] Yeah, most of them.  

Beth [00:21:24] So tens of millions. So huge program. So they roll out a new form. It doesn't work on time. They say, hang with us. When it finally launches, it has all kinds of launch problems as every new technological endeavor ever has.  

Sara Bittner [00:21:41] Do you want to know a fun fact, though?  

Beth [00:21:43] Yeah. 

Sara Bittner [00:21:43] Do you remember how the ACA rolled out the Obamacare?  

Sarah [00:21:48] Yeah.  

Sara Bittner [00:21:49] It's the same contractor.  

Sarah [00:21:51] No! Well, we should have hired the IRS, because, remember, they just did the e-file, and that's gone great. So we should hire that company and not this other.  

Beth [00:21:58] So we have another batch rollout. And all of that is playing against a background of the colleges that are most desired and most competitive saying, well, if you really want to come here, then you need to commit without knowing how much it's actually going to cost you to come here, because we cannot tell you what the aid package looks like yet.  

Sara Bittner [00:22:23] The very, very most selective, they actually can package theirs because they have a private financial aid form called the CSS profile. That's from College Board, so the same company who administers the S.A.T. and also all of the AP tests. It's the same company. They also have a financial aid form, which is much more invasive. It takes into account the value of your home, your home equity. Because if you can remortgage your home, you can also use that to pay for college.  

Sarah [00:22:57] No one's concerned with that monopoly? Which that's fine. That's not-- we know. 

Sara Bittner [00:23:00]  I'm very concerned.  

Sarah [00:23:01] Okay.  

Sara Bittner [00:23:02] Well, I am. Because that's one of my big things about this, is that the FAFSA is supposed to be free for everybody to have access to it. It does work really wonderfully with the IRS system. So people are filling it out now and they're, like, that took me literally two minutes. So the form changing overall is good. I don't want to lose sight of that because it will result eventually in more people filling it in faster. That doesn't help the families this year, and also current students.  

Sarah [00:23:42] Well, and also I want to add to Beth's summary. I heard that the Supreme Court also made a major decision about affirmative action that affected college admissions as well. So we'll pile that right on top of everything else we've talked about so far.  

Sara Bittner [00:24:01] Yeah, that was last year's cycle.  

Beth [00:24:05] And then we have standardized testing as not ,yes again.  

Sara Bittner [00:24:12] Well, this year is still not anymore a lot of the time, but now that they've gotten all their applications in for this year, they're coming out and saying open next year we are going to want that just by the way. So there are also a lot of high school juniors who are freaking out (for lack of a better word) about they thought they didn't need to take these tests, but now they do, because those test scores are also tied to financial aid a lot of the time. So the higher your test score is, the more financial aid you'll get from a college.  

Sarah [00:24:49] Can we just take a time out and say college should not be so expensive that they need this level of financial information? I mean, Vanderbilt officially surpassed $100,000 a year. Now, most kids are not going to pay that. But that's not the point. That's insane. That's an insane amount. Yeah, but you know what I mean? We're doing this process. This process is broken. It's to do something that we've all assumed we have to do. We had an interview that when it was over they were saying a lot of families and their social circle are starting to send their kids to Europe for college because it's cheaper.  

Sara Bittner [00:25:26] It's good for my business.  

Sarah [00:25:28] Yes, it's good for your business because you specialize in that. But I can't imagine how this not just, "A hello anybody home? This is too much money." We're going to lose all these people who just gave up on FAFSA, this population of students who we have spent so much time and energy trying to get to apply to college. And maybe it'll be better next year when the form is fully online. But this year we're going to lose so many students who just don't go.  

Beth [00:26:02] Yeah. So, Sara, if you had a magic wand and you could change one piece of the college admissions process that would really make a difference to the issues we've been talking about, what would you do?  

Sara Bittner [00:26:12] Shut down the U.S. News and World Report rankings.  

Sarah [00:26:15] Yeah.  

Beth [00:26:16] Would that help with evening out? It is bananas that you have so much competition for so few seats and then it doesn't trickle down, that you have the small liberal arts schools closing. So is that the factor? Like, if we didn't look at them ranked that we would we would have a smoother, more even spread of students across schools?  

Sara Bittner [00:26:38] I think, yes, and I think colleges would be more particular about who they're recruiting. Because I was just listening to another podcast called like the college admissions lunch room or something, and they were talking about-- it's run by an IEC and someone from admissions at Knox College. So a smaller liberal arts college. They were saying that colleges right now are so focused on attracting as many students, as many applicants as possible, that they're just trying to appeal to everybody. So you're getting this just like monolith. And people aren't recognizing that, like, there's strength in your uniqueness. So they're just trying to act like everybody can succeed at their school. And the fact is that's not true. Not everybody can go to Ohio State where it's like enormous and have a successful time there. It's just false. It's just not true. But Ohio State is not saying to anybody, you know what, I think this might actually be too big for you. I think maybe you should check out Miami University of Ohio. Nobody from Ohio State is saying that. So I think if you didn't have the rankings from U.S. News and World Report and everybody focusing on that because they're applying based on the rankings-- and so it all just reinforces itself. Because Northeastern did that. Northeastern used to have like a 70% or something acceptance rate not all that long ago. And the president of northeastern at the time even lobbied U.S. News and World Report about the weight of the average graduation time in the algorithm that U.S. News World Report uses for their rankings because they're a co-op school. So their optimal graduation time, is five years. So he lobbied the ranking organization to say that shouldn't matter because our students don't do that. So they did that? They really invested a lot of money in recruiting a lot of students, and you even still see it today. So there's a lot of essays that students have to write to apply to college. Northeastern doesn't require any extra essays because their strategy is still get as many applications as possible.  

Sarah [00:29:18] So we can get that admission rate down.  

Sara Bittner [00:29:19] Down so we can get the admissions rate as low as possible. Tulane does that as well. Tulane early decision acceptance rate is about 68% or so. Their regular decision acceptance rate is about three or four percent. And that's being encouraged by the rankings. So I think if we could just get those rankings off and how about let's talk about what are the campuses with the happiest students? Like, that's where I want my kids to go. I want them to be happy because happy kids do the best work anyway. And they lived the most fulfilling lives later. It's all turned into this just race to the top for these couple spots at these couple schools and I'm like, what are we doing? We have something so unique in this country and it's just being neglected. Like the whole thing. Like it's unreal how many opportunities people are just like leaving on the table. So I would get rid of the rankings. And if anyone listens to anything I have to say, just please don't look at the rankings. Just don't even look, don't even start. Just Google for the best things in your area. I tell people to Google based on the regions you want to go to, because you'll get more interesting results. Because the rankings, you'll see the same 10 names 50 times.  

Sarah [00:30:49] Sympathy for the families this year, for the families next year, for myself, and several years for Beth. And a few years after that. College is important. It's not just important for the kid. It's not just important for the family. It is important for democracy. I do want an educated populace that can analyze disinformation and artificial intelligence. I want smart people asking the artificial intelligence the right questions. And it's so intense. And I really thank you for coming here and doing your level best to put this mess in front of us and go, see, it's a mess.  

Sara Bittner [00:31:28] Yeah. So my sympathies go out to all of you parents who are dealing with the FAFSA right now. And to students, because it's grad students, it's med students. There are so many users of FAFSA. So my heart goes out to all of you, and I hope that everybody has something they can afford in August.  

Sarah [00:31:51] So true. Well, thank you, Sara. Thank you so much.  

[00:31:53] Music Interlude.  

[00:32:03] Beth, summer is upon us, breathing down our neck. I can feel it. I can feel the hot, steamy breath right behind me.  

Beth [00:32:12] Best time of the year.  

Sarah [00:32:14] Not so sure. I don't know why. And I do get that sort of new year, beginning of school year energy. Like we're clearing the deck here. It's a different way to be- June and July. It's a different way of being. So I'm making some goals. I'm sorting out what it's going to look like. What are you aspiring to in the summer 2024?  

Beth [00:32:35] I have two things that are important to me. The first one is that this is the summer that I want to learn to grill really well. I'm a pretty good cook, but I've never been good with the grill. And I do not like being like Chad. Obviously you're going to man the grill. I don't like it. 

Sarah [00:32:52] You don't like the stereotype.  

Beth [00:32:53] I don't like the stereotype. It's hot over there by the grill. Chad is hot always. And I can handle the heat better than he can, it just feels like I should alleviate some of that for him. He doesn't mind. He's great at it, but I just want to learn to be great at it too. And so that's important to me. I also want to grill more vegetables and peaches for dessert and things like that. 

Sarah [00:33:11] Well, I've told you my anxiety around raw meat. So the grilling is just that the raw meat situation is disqualifying for me from the beginning.  

Beth [00:33:22] I don't enjoy it either. But that's part of why I want to learn to grill better, because I'd like to grill more things that aren't meat. I think there's so many possibilities here.  

Sarah [00:33:31] Okay. I'm with you here. I'm with you here. I'm with you here. Okay. I see what you're saying.  

Beth [00:33:35] So that's number one. And number two is, after the smashing success of my holiday murder mystery party, I want to do a murder mystery party at the pool, I think that would be so super far.  

Sarah [00:33:44] Oh, that sounds fun. Somebody's going to drown? I guess somebody's going to drown.  

Beth [00:33:48] Probably.  

Sarah [00:33:48]  Well, I just have an exciting announcement for our audience. I don't remember when we had this conversation, but I expressed that I'm not a music festival person. I used to say that I've never been to a music festival. I don't remember if I said that on the episode, but that's not true. I went to Lilith Fair. The real one, the first one, the original.  

Beth [00:34:07] That's a big one.  

Sarah [00:34:08] That's a big one. Maybe that's why I stopped. Maybe I was like, I did it... 

Beth [00:34:12] Can't get better after that.  

Sarah [00:34:13] Can't get better after that. But all of you made your case and I thought, okay, I want to explore this music festival situation further. Now, I'm not going to go all in first time on Brandi Carlile's festival in Mexico, because that just feels like a big commit. You see what I'm saying? Like, I wanted to start out a little slower than that, and I really want to see Noah Kahan in concert. We were talking about it. I was like, I would love to see him because we love that album, we listen to it all time. And I was looking at his tour page, he's sold out. All his individual appearances are sold out, but he was going to be at Railbird in Lexington with Chris Stapleton, who I also love. 

Beth [00:34:53] Very fun.  

Sarah [00:34:54] Dwight Yoakam, Wynonna Judd. So I'm going. I bought a two day ticket to Railbird in Lexington. I'm going to be a festival person.  

Beth [00:35:01] I'm so excited for you about this. I think this is the best news.  

Sarah [00:35:04] I'm excited too. I think I'm getting a real big hat.  

Beth [00:35:07] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:35:09] They're going to be up way past my bedtime, but this summer I'm just aspiring to really thrive in the face of a lot of activity right now. And I can't explain exactly how this happened. It just did. But I am looking at our summer, and I think that I am going to be home for perhaps two weekends. The whole summer, Beth.  

Beth [00:35:36] I think that is both exciting and daunting.  

Sarah [00:35:38] It is daunting. I am daunted. That is the right word. And here's the thing, it's all thrilling. It's all exciting. But, boy, [inaudible]. I'm going to LA. I'm going to Nashville. I'm going to Japan. I'm going to Chicago. I'm going to this festival. I got to pick my kids up at camp. And you're even doing me a solid, you're going to transfer my kids for a week of camp, so I don't have to drive all the way to Cincinnati and back. So it's just a lot. It's a lot.  

Beth [00:36:07] But this is what I love about summer. When you said July and June are a different way of being, that's probably why I like it so much, because I feel like everything in summer is immersive. You just can't really multitask in the summer.  

Sarah [00:36:23] There's no weekly schedule in the summer. There's no routine. That's why by the time school starts, we're like, "Please God, give us a routine."  

Beth [00:36:32] Well, and it's also, like, you just can't be at a music festival and read the New York Times.  

Sarah [00:36:39] No.  

Beth [00:36:40] You're at the pool, you're just at the pool. Your device gets too hot to even be distracted.  

Sarah [00:36:45] That's true.  

Beth [00:36:46] And I think there's a gift in that where it's just like, look, in the summer, just be where you are. Don't try to juggle 15 things. Just be where you are and let that be enough. And I need and appreciate that vibe very much.  

Sarah [00:37:00] Well, and I told you I think some of my angst around summer is that apparently people persist in wanting me to be an adult and fulfill my adult obligations in the midst of all this, which is really the rub for me. I mean, I don't love the heat, but I do like all the summer fun. But then people want you to like, I don't know, do your job and continue to exercise and keep your house clean. And I don't think that's reasonable. That's the rub. Whereas, in the winter-- man, let me just tell you something. You can perfect a routine in January, in February because you ain't doing shit else.  

Beth [00:37:38] But I do feel that some things can go in the summer. I think housework is easier in the summer because you're mostly living outside.  

Sarah [00:37:45] But the dark comes in.  

Beth [00:37:48] When kids are coming to play inside during the winter, things are never picked up. Never, ever. It is a constant battle to be picking things up. In the summer, it's just like we're just outside all the time. It's great. I think the eating is a little easier in the summer, because you got all this fresh food that doesn't need to be cooked to be delicious. The exercise is happening because you're out moving your body, doing the things. It just feels to me like, yes, you have to still be a functioning adult, but parts of that is quite a bit in the summer. The only thing for me is the towels. The laundry with the towels in the summer is a lot.  

Sarah [00:38:25] Have you considered putting a washer and dryer in your pool house?  

Beth [00:38:28] I have not.  

Sarah [00:38:29] I think you should.  

Beth [00:38:30] What I have mostly considered is just using fewer towels. Just saying everybody you come in when you're dry naturally instead of drying off.  

Sarah [00:38:39] Yeah, let me think on it because this is where I shine with a problem like this.  

Beth [00:38:47] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:38:47] And I do think probably the answer is just no towels. I mean, because your pool is far enough away from your house. Like, even if they went right out of the pool, you just need to get a super absorbent mat when they step in. But when we used to live across the street from a pool we had access to all the time, we never took towels. We walked across the street-- which is probably about as far from your pool to your back door. We walked across the street, we swam, we got out, we sat, we picked up all our stuff, we walked back into the laundry room, took off our swimsuits and got right in the shower. That's why we never took towels.  

Beth [00:39:21] That might be the answer.  

Sarah [00:39:22] I think it's the answer.  

Beth [00:39:23] But that's the thing. You got to look at summer and say, where can I find some ease? Because I have all these immersive experiences to be involved in.  

Sarah [00:39:30] Well, we want to hear about what your summer aspirations are, because I do like a summer bucket list. The summer Check offs, the summer goals. I love a summer reading goal. Put all that directly into my veins, I love it. So we want to hear from all of you about that. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. Thanks to Sara so much for coming and having the conversation with us. We'll be back in your ears on Friday. Please make sure and join us on Substack if you're not already subscribed to our newsletter. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

[00:40:16] Music Interlude. 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

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