How Mexico is Trying to Stop U.S. Gun Manufacturers with Jon Lowy
TOPICS DISCUSSED
The Pantsuit Politics Book Club
Global Action on Gun Violence with Jon Lowy
Outside of Politics: Stress with Ellen
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EPISODE RESOURCES
Get your summer book club box from The Bookshelf on Church here!
GAGV’s Work with Mexico (Global Action on Gun Violence)
Can the Government of Mexico Bring the U.S. Gun Industry to Book? (The New Yorker)
Show Your Safety: A New Approach to Gun Violence (Pantsuit Politics)
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TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth Silvers [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.
Beth Silvers [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.
[00:00:14] Music Interlude.
[00:00:30] Hi, thank you so much for joining us. Three quarters of our team spent yesterday staring not directly at the sun. We hope that those of you who were in the path of totality also got to experience that unique event. Sarah is going to be back with you here on Friday, joined by her husband Nicholas. As we continue this period when many members of our team are taking time off with family, we wanted to share today an interesting conversation I had with John Lowy, who is the founder and president of the Global Action on Gun Violence. We are discussing Mexico's lawsuits against several U.S. gun manufacturers. And I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation, because often when we talk about anything touching gun ownership, we hear people saying we don't need new laws, we just need to enforce existing laws. We don't need to do things that punish responsible gun owners. We need to target people who are purchasing, selling and using guns illegally. And I think this conversation opens a window into a new way that we might do just those things. But before we hear from John, we wanted to remind you that it is Book Club Week at Pantsuit Politics, and Alise thought it would be nice for you to hear from our book club partner, Lisa McLaughlin, who runs the bookshelf on Church in Virginia.
[00:01:46] Music Interlude.
Alise Napp [00:01:54] I am so delighted to be joined by Lisa McLaughlin of The Bookshelf on Church, who we partner with to do our book club. Lisa, thank you so much for joining me. We were so excited when you reached out about reviving the physical element of the book club. I thought maybe it would be lovely for you to just tell people a little bit about yourself, about your small business, about kind of how we started partnering up, I guess, like a year and a half ago now.
Lisa McLaughlin [00:02:23] Yeah. Hi, Alise. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you and talk books and the book club. So The Bookshelf on Church is newly renamed. Most of your subscribers who have bought the book club box will know it as The Bookshelf Irvington, which has been the name for the last year and a half or so. It started as a novel model bookstore, and when I reached out to you guys, I had just opened and it was a partnership with a coffee shop in our very, very small town of 400 people in Virginia. And I just had been a follower of yours forever and loved the previous book club box. And so I thought, what better opportunity to pitch a partnership? And you guys were so kind and so receptive. And so we started working together back-- I think we've done 3 or 4 boxes down, and it's been a learning experience for me. It's really helped my business. It's helped me grow financially, but it's also just given me opportunities to connect with publishers and authors and all the elements of being a bookstore owner.
Alise Napp [00:03:28] Amazing. You know we love bookstore owners, but really just anyone who is in the book world, right? Librarians, booksellers, I think probably people who love to read that somewhere deep down in the corner of your soul, there's a part of you that just wants to be a librarian or open a bookstore.
Lisa McLaughlin [00:03:43] It is a dream.
Alise Napp [00:03:45] So we love that we get to partner with you. And basically the way that that looks in real life is that our team decides on a theme and the books, and then we come to you and say, "Hey, Lisa, here's what we're going to do for this next iteration of the book club. This is the themes of the books." So, for instance, this winter our theme was Company Towns. We read The Big Break by Ben Terris. Tell us about insiders in DC. We read Her Country by Marissa Moss about Nashville and Texas and women in country music. This upcoming box, which is on sale to premium members this week (a little plug there) kind of continues that theme of the politics of place. We're reading two novels that were suggested by listeners and members of the book club, The Displacements by Bruce Holsinger, and The Sentence by Louise Erdrich. So when we come to you with those books and our ideas, what does it look like for you from there? What's the process for you to kind of put together the physical version of the book club?
Lisa McLaughlin [00:04:44] So there's a couple steps. And a lot of it is logistical, so it's not super sexy.
Alise Napp [00:04:50] I know I love logistics. Logistics are very sexy. That's my whole job. Yes, please.
Lisa McLaughlin [00:04:54] Not sexy, but very important. So I reached out to my publisher contacts. I have reps at each of the major publishers depending on who the books are published by. And I prep for a large order. So I want to make sure that I have all the elements of the box before I start packing, for efficiency sake and to hopefully get them out the door pretty quickly to people who have purchased them. And the other piece is that I throw in some other fun gift items, and as a small business, I really focus on supporting fellow small business owners. So I work with reps on some of these networking sites. I can get recommendations from other booksellers or products. There's a website called Fair that I use a lot that has small batch, small businesses just making really great items. So I have a lot of fun with that. I think it's really fun to kind of pick a new set of things that we haven't put in the box before, and that I hope are just a fun treat with the books. And I have had custom boxes made. So we had a logo made. That's kind of a joint logo between us and The Bookshelf, Irvington. And that goes on a box that's custom cut for these size of books and gifts. So basically it's a lot of gathering materials and then I line it all up. And currently that's been in my home office, which I've outgrown a little bit, to be honest. But as I'm opening a storefront in May, which is very exciting, I will have a whole area to set up the elements of the box and really get them packaged up, hopefully, more efficiently. I looked back at our initial emails when we started this, and we had our first call in December of 2022. And as you know, that I'll share with your listeners, I was diagnosed with breast cancer just three weeks later, and it was obviously a shock. But it really threw a wrench in my plans to get these boxes out and efficiently organized for us. And so you guys have been so good at just being protective of my time and energy as a small business and a solo business owner. And going through that, I was put back a bit in some of the shipping deadlines that I set for myself. And so I think the storefront will really help me kind of expand that operation, I hope, and provide a good service to you guys clients.
Alise Napp [00:07:20] Yeah, you've been amazing at being so communicative and on top of things in the midst of having this very intense personal journey. So I don't want to not recognize that. But you took on this big new thing and then also life threw a big thing at you.
Lisa McLaughlin [00:07:36] You just never know.
Alise Napp [00:07:37] You never know. And it's so important to us to (as we partner with you) both support and help grow and expand your small business and also put up guardrails to protect your time, protect your profit margins. It's important to us. The way that this partnership is working, is we are not taking any portion of the profit from those physical boxes. So that is all for Lisa and her small business. And then the drive for us is that the content that we create around the book box is for our premium members. So the people who have paid subscriptions to our extra content, that's over there for us. Also, if you are a premium member, you get access to purchase one of the limited run curated book boxes that Lisa puts together. That's part of also protecting Lisa's time and energy. She makes a limited number of these boxes, and when they're sold out, they're sold out. And so premium members get first chance to buy those based on their tier level. So highest tier starts on Monday this week- that was yesterday. Next level tier is Tuesday etc. So by the end of the week, hopefully we'll be sold out of the summer book club boxes and ready to go, and they'll be in people's mailboxes in June. Is that right Lisa?
Lisa McLaughlin [00:08:52] Yeah, that's the goal. We should be on schedule as planned, hopefully sooner.
Alise Napp [00:08:58] We're super excited. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that people should know about the book boxes, the book club, anything that we haven't talked about?
Lisa McLaughlin [00:09:06] Yeah, and I think the other piece I would share just about-- obviously, and these are all different, which is what I think is great about indie bookstores, is no one is the same. We are in a very rural area in Virginia, kind of a collection of small towns, and we don't have an indie or even a big box store within 50 miles of us. So I'm taking over what was our last bookstore here that was open for 50 years, and the owner just retired and sold the building. And I think everyone in town is really excited. So I wanted to share two part of our mission here. Because we are in a rural area, we are considered a book desert in certain parts of our county. And so one of my [inaudible] missions is to get books to kids and those imprisoned. Because it pains me to think of kids not growing up with age and language appropriate books. But my kids grew up with that, and so that was sort of not a question. But to start learning more about book deserts as I got into this job was really important to me to think, how can I create that access? We have a wonderful library, so maybe it's even funding them and partnering with them, doing events with them. And then the other piece is getting books to prisons and those imprisoned in our state, because that is a population that I really feel is often forgotten and has lost a lot of freedom. But I think the freedom to read and to learn and to continue to grow is really important. And I have heard stories of prison book clubs or jail book clubs where the kids at home who are separated from maybe their parent are reading the same book and they get to connect on the phone later about whatever they were reading. It's just one of those things that makes me think this is the power of a book. And as much as it is just paper and print in some ways, there's just so many wonderful things out there to read. And to able to target those populations that maybe really are limited in their access to that stuff is one of my big mission. So I'm really excited to get the store opened and have a section where you can pick from a wall of what they've requested or what we're maybe offering to send them, and you can just throw it in your basket at checkout and continue to support those missions here in Virginia.
Alise Napp [00:11:28] I love that so much. I think there's something so special about the way a bookstore can become not only a third space in a community, but also a community connection point, and bring awareness and resources to programs. Exactly what you're talking about. So we love what you're doing. We're excited that we get to continue to partner with you. Thank you for making the physical aspect of our book club real. We're super excited for this next round. Summer novels that are about the politics of place. I think people are going to love them. We're pumped about it. So make sure if you are interested in getting one of these curated book boxes that Lisa puts together that you head over to patreon ASAP, become a premium member of the Spice Cabinet, and get the link for your opportunity to buy one of these limited run boxes. Thank you so much, Lisa!
[00:12:14] Music Interlude.
Beth Silvers [00:12:22] Jon Lowy is the founder and president of the Global Action on Gun Violence, and has over 25 years of experience advocating against gun violence and for strong gun policies. He is co-counsel representing the Government of Mexico in lawsuits filed in Massachusetts and Arizona against gun manufacturers. Now, as we have discussed here too many times, the United States has a unique gun culture and a despairingly unique epidemic of gun violence. But the world is interconnected and our gun problems don't exist in a vacuum. We are exporting our gun violence to Mexico via the trafficking of over half a million guns from the U.S. to Mexico every year. And Mexico is now coming into our court system claiming that gun manufacturers know about that trafficking and that they profit from it, and that there are things that they could be doing to prevent it. So here is Jon Lowy to share more about these lawsuits. John Lowy, thanks for joining me. And congratulations on a couple of big legal victories that we're going to talk about today. I want to start by asking you about the general field that Congress has created around trying to sue gun manufacturers. So tell us a little bit about the protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.
Jon Lowy [00:13:38] Sure. Well, in 2005, the NRA and the rest of the gun lobby, pushed for this special protection from civil liability, which became the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. And it's a federal law that gives the gun industry protection from lawsuits that no other people, no other industry in America has. So pretty extraordinary that probably the most dangerous product on the consumer market, guns, is in some ways the least protected. But that's been an impediment to a lot of lawsuits against the gun industry in the past 15, 20 years. But there are ways around it, and Mexico's lawsuits are two good examples of that.
Beth Silvers [00:14:33] Tell us a little bit about some of the previous efforts to find ways around that act. So the saying goes that this act makes sense because if a drunk driver hits and kills a person, the car manufacturer is not responsible. I think that analogy is flawed in a lot of ways, but useful as we try to understand this. So I would love to hear about previous attempts to deal with this act in litigation before you started partnering with Mexico.
Jon Lowy [00:15:02] Sure. And going back to the analogy, one of the ways the analogy doesn't work is when you talk about cars or any other sort of product, congress doesn't step in and set the rules. We trust judges and the court system to decide should General Motors be liable? Should someone who makes baseball bats be liable for an attack? And they decide things in a reasonable way. Same thing can happen with guns, but of course, Congress stepped in because of the power of the gun lobby. But there have been a number of cases, and I've been involved in a lot of them that have held that gun companies can be liable under certain exceptions within PLCAA, the Protection of Full Coverage of Arms Act. And probably the most prominent and most used exception is what's called the predicate exception, which essentially says if you're a gun company and you knowingly violate the law and that causes harm, you don't get protected. This law is called the Protection of Lawful Commerce and Arms Act. If you engage in unlawful commerce to arms, we're not protecting you. And a lot of cases come within that, including Mexico's lawsuits. And the Sandy Hook case is another example of using that exception where the court there held that the marketing of assault weapons in this way, that appealed to young people that are sort of in their demographic and type of potential mass shooters, violated a state unfair business practice law. That was in violation of law. So that company did not get protected under PLCAA.
Beth Silvers [00:16:59] Does this kind of put it in line with opioids cases, other manufacture and sale of lawful products, where the manufacturer is aware that they're being used for unlawful purposes and it is complicit in their use and unlawful purposes because it's so profitable?
Jon Lowy [00:17:15] Yeah, there are certainly some similarities. And I think it's important to step back and talk about what the allegations are in Mexico's cases and basically how guns are distributed in the U.S. For over 20 years, U.S. law enforcement, particularly the ATF, has said that most crime guns are sold by very small percentage gun dealers. Okay, about 5% of gun dealers sell about 90% of crime guns. About 90% of gun dealers sell no crime guns. So you have a lot of gun dealers that are selling guns the right way. They're not part of the problem. We have this fairly small group of bad actors that are basically the entire problem, and you got manufacturers who are using those bad gun dealers to sell their products. And the federal government has, over the past 20 years or so, said to manufacturers, "You shouldn't be supplying these bad dealers, and you should be having standards for your dealers." Make sure that they're screening their purchasers so they're not selling to gun traffickers and straw buyers. And, unfortunately, manufacturers have refused to do what the federal government and in fact people in their old industry have told them to do. And that's how guns get to the criminal market. And it's how guns get to the cartels in Mexico and to the gangs in Haiti and Jamaica and elsewhere.
Beth Silvers [00:18:53] So tell us about Mexico and how the idea of Mexico as plaintiff came together.
Jon Lowy [00:18:58] Sure. Well, there's been a huge problem for a number of years of these dangerous practices of the gun industry supplying the cartels in Mexico. It's very hard for cartels or other criminals to get guns in Mexico. There's one gun store in the entire country. It's on a military base. They have very strong laws. So what the cartels do is they work with gun traffickers in the U.S., and those traffickers go to these gun dealers who are the irresponsible ones, are the ones who are more than happy to sell five assault weapons, 10 assault weapons, huge amounts of ammunition where it should be obvious that the buyer is a straw buyer or a gun trafficker. But you have these dealers who sell those guns and ammunition, and that's trafficked across the border to the cartels. So that's the problem. And it's leading to huge violence in Mexico that drives migration. It enables the fentanyl trafficking. So it's a big problem on both sides of the border. And basically what happened is after the mass shooting at the Walmart in El Paso, where you had a man who essentially was trying to kill as many Mexicans as he could, his goal was to then cross the border and kill Mexicans on the southern side of the border. And the Mexican government wanted to do something about this problem. And ultimately it led to litigation that they brought against gun manufacturers and then later a lawsuit against gun dealers.
Beth Silvers [00:20:46] And there are lawsuits in Arizona and Massachusetts. Can you tell us about the selection of those jurisdictions?
Jon Lowy [00:20:53] The first lawsuit that Mexico filed, and I'm privileged to be co-counsel for the government of Mexico in both those cases. The first one was filed in federal court in Massachusetts against a number of gun manufacturers. One of those manufacturers is Smith & Wesson, and they are based in Massachusetts, so that's why the case was filed there. And the other suit is against a few gun dealers, all of them in Arizona. And so that case is in federal court in Tucson.
Beth Silvers [00:21:26] So for listeners who are not in civil court every day, you have crossed a really big hurdle in these cases by surviving a motion to dismiss because of the Protection of Lawful Commerce and Arms Act. So can you tell us a little bit about the court's acceptance of this predicate exception as a possibility, and then what discovery will look like here?
Jon Lowy [00:21:47] You put the two cases together because there's similar rulings. In both cases, one of them was the first Circuit court of appeals in Massachusetts case against manufacturers, the other was a federal judge in Arizona, they both held that Mexico's allegations supported the predicate violation. That is that Mexico had adequately alleged that the defendants knowingly violated gun laws by aiding and abetting illegal gun sales in various respects, and that those violations proximately caused harm to Mexico, according to the allegations. So because of that, both of the courts held this special protection law does not protect these companies against liability. So the cases are now moving forward. Actually in the manufacture case, the defendants have said they are going to seek Supreme Court review and they're going to file a petition in April. I personally think it's very, very unlikely that the Supreme Court is going to take that case. So I think we'll be back down and in trial court in a few months there. And in the Arizona case, we are off to the races in discovery. So that's the stage we're at now where we will be entitled to get evidence, documents, records, emails, live testimony under oath of the defendants and experts. And Mexico will be proving its case to ultimately present to a jury.
Beth Silvers [00:23:28] Why do you think the Supreme Court won't take it?
Jon Lowy [00:23:30] Well, the Supreme Court has rules about what sort of cases it takes, and whether there is a circuit split or issues that have percolated a lot in the lower courts that are ripe for Supreme Court review and a number of other criteria. None of them apply to this case. So it really is not a ripe case for a Supreme Court review, certainly not at this stage.
Beth Silvers [00:23:58] So tell me about discovery and what you expect to uncover. Mexico had to allege with some specificity that the manufacturers really do understand how these guns are getting to cartels and that, in fact, the manufacturers are trying to make products that are attractive to the cartels. So what do you hope to find as you request documents and conduct depositions?
Jon Lowy [00:24:22] Well, I'm not going to open up our whole playbook of how we're going to prove our case. But in both cases, we go into great detail about the practices of the gun industry that we believe should hold them accountable. And also particular examples. That's just samples of the gun trafficking that you see. And those are the sorts of things where you have a gun trafficker going into a gun store, buying multiple assault rifles, buying hundreds of rounds of ammunition, in some cases, buying 50 caliber sniper rifles, which are guns that have a range of about a mile. They can shoot through reinforced concrete. They have been used by the cartels to shoot down military helicopters. They're true military weapons. And you have gun dealers selling them and selling them as part of a bulk sale. And so those transactions, it's obvious that those persons are traffickers. And then on the manufacturer's point, you have this long history of decades of information about there being these problem gun dealers and manufacturers being told you shouldn't deal with these guys, and you should have standards of who you use to sell your guns at retail. And they've refused. So that's set out in our complaints, and I would recommend listeners to go to Action on guns.org, our website. You can download copies of the complaints and see that. And we intend to, one, prove those allegations which are quite compelling, but then also certainly hear from the defendants about what are their defenses, what are their explanations of why they sell guns and distribute guns, market them the way that they do? I think all of that will be extremely interesting for everyone to hear and ultimately, hopefully, in a public trial.
Beth Silvers [00:26:40] One defense that you know you'll have to contend with is causation. This came up in the First Circuit's ruling on the motion to dismiss. So I'm interested in hearing about causation from your perspective, because I think this is an issue that comes up just in Second Amendment conversation, right? Where people like that car analogy, they say, "Yes, it's the responsibility of the person with the gun as to whether they use it lawfully or not." And there's a flavor of that when the defendants say, well, we sell to dealers who then sell to this person, and then it goes here and it's 18 steps down before Mexico suffers any harm. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Jon Lowy [00:27:20] The fact is, under the law, there can be multiple causes to an injury. So the fact that you can point the finger at other people or companies that played a part in causing this injury doesn't, mean that you're off the hook. A criminal or cartel member who pulls the trigger and uses that gun, of course they are at great fault. That does not mean that if you are a gun dealer, selling to an obvious trafficker who you've reason to know is going to be supplying criminals and potentially supplying cartel members, that you're off the hook. In fact, it makes even more responsibility imposed on dealers and manufacturers if they know that there are these cartels and criminals on U.S. side of the border out there. They've got a great obligation to prevent that from happening. So it really is just it's a case of shared responsibility. You bring up the car analogy. Well, there are times, in fact, where somebody drives drunk and drives a car into a tree. Of course, they have responsibility, but there are times where the car manufacturer can be also responsible if there weren't safety features that would have prevented that foreseeable injury. Again, if there's foreseeable risks and you're a manufacturer or seller, you've got to use reasonable care to prevent that from happening.
Beth Silvers [00:29:02] I was trying to think about what would be analogous on the part of a car manufacturer. If you know that drunk driving happens a lot and you decide that there's some kind of profit motive attached to more drunk driving, do you put like a bottle opener in the dashboard or a shot glass sized cup holder? They're taking affirmative steps to facilitate the bad action, the illegal action, not just putting the product into the stream of commerce.
Jon Lowy [00:29:29] Yeah. And you mentioned opioids earlier and there's a old Supreme Court case where the court held a criminal conviction of a drug manufacturer and distributor because the way it was selling drugs in bulk, in that case to a licensed doctor, should have indicated that doctor was actually trafficking some of those drugs on the side. So, to me, that's very similar. You've got a licensed physician who is allowed to buy drugs and does not have any limits on how many he can buy under the law, but there can be circumstances where you've got to realize what's happening downstream.
Beth Silvers [00:30:23] And the seriousness of the drug has been relevant in some of those cases. This isn't Tylenol, it's morphine. And this first circuit seem to find that compelling here too, that the responsibility is heightened by the deadliness of these weapons and some of the features that you mentioned earlier would seem-- we're not talking about someone's granddad's revolver.
Jon Lowy [00:30:43] Absolutely. And if you're selling assault rifles, and certainly if you're selling these sniper rifles or selling guns in bulk, you've got to pay very special attention. And we're not just making this up. Again, the US federal government has said the same things to the gun industry. People within the gun industry over the years have occasionally spoken up and said, "Wait a minute. We're supplying bad gun dealers and we're supplying bad people with our guns. We should clean up our act." And those voices have been shut down.
Beth Silvers [00:31:26] So we've talked about basically duty, breach, and causation. Let's talk about damages. What does Mexico say needs to be redressed here?
Jon Lowy [00:31:34] Well, we're not there yet in the cases. We'll be proving them, but the damage that Mexico has suffered as a result of this crime gun pipeline are extraordinary. There's all sorts of damage to Mexican society economically. People have been killed. As you mentioned, there's a Mexican military helicopter shot out of the sky, that was damage to people, to property and far beyond that. But I'd also note that there is damage on this side of the border as well. This harm comes back to us. I mean, 70,000 Americans are dying from fentanyl overdoses. A lot of that fentanyl is being trafficked because of US guns. That is really enabling the cartels to engage in their criminal enterprises. Migration is spurred by violence, largely cartel violence with US guns. So if you care about migration issues, we care about fentanyl. If you care about-- going beyond Mexico to the crisis in Haiti and elsewhere, you should care about stopping this crime gun pipeline that's enabling all of these crimes and violence.
Beth Silvers [00:33:08] So bigger picture. I know that your organization has come in part from hearing from countries around the world, their reactions to our gun laws to the level of gun ownership that exists in the United States. I would love for you to tell us some of what you've heard that's really striking.
Jon Lowy [00:33:26] First, let me step back and just give a little bit of background on myself, which sort of plays into this story. I spent 25 years at a large U.S. loss prevention organization. And a lot of that was representing victims of gun violence in litigation against the gun industry. And even though we had some success, ultimately, I was frustrated by the lack of progress in the U.S. because there's such political constraints on the gun issue. And that's why I left to create Global Action Gun Violence, which is representing Mexico and working with other countries as well. And I give that background because what I've seen is when you step out of the U.S. where there's this tremendous political constraint, any conversation about guns, and you talk to people in Jamaica and in Trinidad and in Mexico and in Canada, they have a different perspective. They have a perspective of how can you in the US do nothing when there is mass slaughter of children and adults in movie theaters and schools and workplaces? It's inconceivable to them. And so that, to me, leads to bold action like Mexico has taken in its litigation and much bolder action than we see domestically in the US. And that really is sort of why I created Global Action on Gun violence, it's because I saw there was a great potential to impact not just the spread of gun violence throughout the region, but also to reduce gun violence in the United States.
Beth Silvers [00:35:27] You've mentioned a couple of times that there are practices that manufacturers can change, that it sounds like would not materially disrupt gun ownership for the average voter who cares a lot about this topic. Can you unravel that a little bit more for us?
Jon Lowy [00:35:43] Yes. And I've said that most gun dealers are responsible business people who care about guns getting in the right hands and not the wrong hands. They're not selling any crime guns, just as most gun owners are responsible gun owners. We may have disagreements about all sorts of things, but they do take the responsibility of gun ownership seriously. And in fact, I've talked to many of those gun owners over the years and they've said if they're at a gun store and they see two people who are in the store together picking out a whole bunch of guns, they know what's going on. They know those are straw purchasers, and they don't want that sale to happen but it does. So the sorts of best practices are really pretty simple. I mean, there are well known indicators of gun trafficking and straw buying guns in bulk, repeatedly going back to the store to buy more guns, two people coming into the store together, sometimes checking your phone for texts from the actual buyer. And there's others, but the responsible gun dealers have steps to prevent those sorts of sales and that's why they're not selling any crime guns. But it's the irresponsible ones that welcomed these high risk and obvious bad practices.
Beth Silvers [00:37:16] So my last question, as someone who has spent so much of your career working on gun violence, if you could ask Congress for one legislative change that you think would really make a difference, what would it be?
Jon Lowy [00:37:30] Many people in the gun laws prevention movement would say universal background checks. I don't think that is the answer I would give. I would say really comprehensive, strong regulation of the gun industry to prevent the bad actors, to make sure that the bad actors can't get licenses, that they're shut down, that they're prosecuted if they need to be, that manufacturers have standards that they're required to follow, which gun dealers they use, and make sure those gun dealers have safe practices and have employees who are trained. And if that happened, then guns would be sold to law abiding people who want them. But traffickers would have a much harder time getting guns and straw buyers. And that's where virtually all the crime guns come from. So if you had that, you would have crime reduced significantly in the U.S., but also the crime gun pipeline to Mexico would be shut down and the pipeline to Haiti and Jamaica and other countries would also be shut down.
Beth Silvers [00:38:55] Well, Jon, thank you so much for your time and for your work in these lawsuits. We will link the complaints so that people can read them for themselves and see this compelling case that you've laid out. Best of luck. I hope you'll come back and tell us how it went on the other side of this suites.
Jon Lowy [00:39:09] It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Beth Silvers [00:39:11] Thanks so much to Jon. Next up, we will end, as we always do, talking about something Outside of Politics. And today I have a very special guest for that conversation.
[00:39:20] Music Interlude.
[00:39:20] Well, I have a very special guest joining me as we end with what's on our minds Outside of Politics today. Who's here with me?
Ellen Silvers [00:39:36] Hello?
Beth Silvers [00:39:38] It's Ellen. Ellen, how old are you now?
Ellen Silvers [00:39:42] I'm eight and three quarters.
Beth Silvers [00:39:44] Eight and three quarters. And what grade are you in?
Ellen Silvers [00:39:46] Third grade.
Beth Silvers [00:39:47] Very good. And I said to you, "Would you be willing to come chat with me on the podcast?" And you said basically always. And I asked you what was on your mind right now. And what was your idea for our topic?
Ellen Silvers [00:40:01] It was stress.
Beth Silvers [00:40:02] I think that's a good topic because everybody feels stressed sometimes.
Ellen Silvers [00:40:06] Yeah. So at school every week you have a set of things that you're supposed to do, and you have to finish it by Friday at the end of the week. And if you do finish it, then you get to play like fun games on your computer called Free Choice Friday. And I have a lot of stress on me every week that I have to finish that. It's kind of hard to keep up with them because my brain is all like, "Ellen, you're not going to finish it." And it's kind of stressful to deal with that. And there's a whole bunch of other things too, though.
Beth Silvers [00:40:50] Well, you want to start with the big rocks. That's what you're talking about, right?
Ellen Silvers [00:40:53] Yeah.
Beth Silvers [00:40:53] So Ellen's teacher every week has them complete a certain number of lessons on computer programs about reading and math.
Ellen Silvers [00:41:01] And working with a group. We have a journal that we put in journal entries every week, and we have to do two of them. And then we have these little papers that are math. They're called simple solutions. They're kind of like our "morning work".
Beth Silvers [00:41:23] Okay. And why do we call them your big rocks?
Ellen Silvers [00:41:26] Because they're important. When you're learning about them in school, big rocks are important things and little rocks are not as important things like big rocks.
Beth Silvers [00:41:40] Have you all done the exercise with the jar where you have to put the big rocks in first, and then put the little rocks in to fit around the big rocks? You can't go the other way.
Ellen Silvers [00:41:49] Well, not fitting around. There's just two jars and one of them says big rocks and one of them says little rocks. And you draw little rocks in and then you put words on them. And one jar is your big rock and one is your little rock.
Beth Silvers [00:42:07] Okay. So your big important things that you have to get done every week. You're right, I have observed that list of things seems to create stress for you every single week, even though every single week you get it done.
Ellen Silvers [00:42:25] Yeah.
Beth Silvers [00:42:26] So what do you notice about that feeling that you're worried that you're not going to get it done, versus how you feel once you have finished up?
Ellen Silvers [00:42:36] Well, I definitely think that I feel much better once I have gotten at least a majority of them done than having only let's say four, and I'm supposed to finish eight of this math program.
Beth Silvers [00:42:56] Okay.
Ellen Silvers [00:42:57] And I'm scared that I'm not going to get it done.
Beth Silvers [00:43:00] Do you enjoy any parts of your big rocks?
Ellen Silvers [00:43:04] What I really do enjoy is I do enjoy my journal entries because I am a big writer. I love to write. I love to use my imagination with writing; it's one of my favorite things. And I really enjoy journal entries. And my teacher grades them, and she usually puts little comments or a star. And I really like that because I like to know if I'm actually doing well in my journals.
Beth Silvers [00:43:34] Do you have a least favorite part of your big rocks?
Ellen Silvers [00:43:38] Honestly, I actually think that my least favorite part is my computer programs, because I'm mostly worried that I'm not going to get my computer programs done.
Beth Silvers [00:43:48] And why is that, you think?
Ellen Silvers [00:43:50] Well, because of my computer programs one of them is called Reading Plus. So there's a specific amount of reading that you have to do in the specific amount of vocabulary you have to do. And it kind of depends. You take a little placement test to see how many you need to do for each. I need to do six, three reading and three Vocabulary. That's kind of a lot for me. And then in math is a program called Dreambox and you have to do eight lessons. And that's a little tough because in first grade and kindergarten we-- in second grade we only had to do five, and that put much less pressure on me than it does now.
Beth Silvers [00:44:40] Well, I'm asking you about what you enjoy and don't enjoy, because one technique that people use to tackle a big list of tasks (like your big rocks are) is to prioritize based on what they like and don't like. Some people say, okay, I'm going to do the things I love first because I'll probably get through those fast. Other people say, I want to start with what I don't like and knock it out. They'll say, that's like eating the frog. They'll say, the things I don't like are the frogs and I'm just going to get through those.
Ellen Silvers [00:45:08] Yeah, that's what I do usually.
Beth Silvers [00:45:10] What do you do? You usually start with what you don't like?
Ellen Silvers [00:45:12] I usually start with all my things that I think are difficult or I just don't enjoy that much and I do them. And then usually I end up finishing my journals last minute, and then I get those done, and then I turn it in and everything's fine.
Beth Silvers [00:45:31] So another stress management technique that I use sometimes is I think of what I'm worried about, and I close my eyes and I imagine that happening. I say, okay, maybe I get to Friday morning and I have not finished my big rocks, what would that mean?
Ellen Silvers [00:45:52] Well, usually I'm worried about not getting my big box done because I'm worried that all my friends are and I won't get to spend time with my friends, and they'll be done. And it'll be upsetting for me because they get to do fun things. I think it's adding a little bit of jealousy in there. That happens a lot to me- jealousy. It's a hard feeling.
Beth Silvers [00:46:21] Jealousy is a very hard feeling. And I think it's wise that you notice that that's maybe what's causing some of this stress. But you know what? Stress is a feeling, too. And it's also a hard feeling. So I just think you might consider what would really be the worst thing if I don't get my big rocks done? I might feel jealous of my friends, and that's a hard feeling.
Ellen Silvers [00:46:45] I think the worst thing would be that I miss out on doing fun things. But now that I think about it, I guess that isn't so bad. But we also have this thing called a week tracker, where we track what we're doing and if we're getting our computer programs done. It's a Google slideshow, and every week you fill in if you finished both of them. So I have all mine filled in.
Beth Silvers [00:47:12] And you don't want to get behind on that.
Ellen Silvers [00:47:13] Yeah. And I don't want to get behind on that because that's a part of my grade.
Beth Silvers [00:47:17] Is wig wildly important goals? Is that what that stands for?
Ellen Silvers [00:47:22] Yeah.
Beth Silvers [00:47:22] Well, I think it's really great that you want to do your very best. I also want you to know, though, that doing your very best every single time is hard. And it does create that feeling of pressure. And sometimes we have to give ourselves a little bit of grace too.
Ellen Silvers [00:47:39] I think that sometimes I want to be the best at everything, and I know that is possible. Really, it could be. But it's just really, really, really difficult. And I think I should stop trying to do that, because I think that's making me feel more stressed than I usually would.
Beth Silvers [00:48:01] Are there any things you have found that help when you have this worried feeling?
Ellen Silvers [00:48:06] Usually I kind of close my eyes and I count to 10 for a minute, and then I breathe a couple times, and then I think of what will happen when I'm done. And when I'm done, I have fun. So when I think of all those things, I feel more motivated because it's something that I want and I want to achieve my goals.
Beth Silvers [00:48:36] Is there anything that dad and I can do to help you when you are feeling this stress?
Ellen Silvers [00:48:43] Well, usually when I do feel the stress, you guys tell me that every week I do get it done.
Beth Silvers [00:48:54] Is that helpful or not helpful?
Ellen Silvers [00:48:55] That is helpful because it reminds me that I'm smart. I'm good at things. And my big rocks are one of those things that I am good at. So I just remember that.
Beth Silvers [00:49:12] Is there anything that we do that's not helpful to you?
Ellen Silvers [00:49:18] I don't know. I can't really think of any right now because you guys don't really do anything that's not exactly helpful. Dad makes jokes about it a lot of time, that isn't exactly helpful. But I guess it's fine because he's just trying to be funny.
Beth Silvers [00:49:37] Yeah. Well, we just both look at you and think you're really succeeding, and we don't want you to feel an unreasonable level of pressure because you're in the third grade. You know what I mean? And you got a lot of life in front of you. And at every stage, there are going to be more things that create this buildup of pressure where you want to be the best or you think, oh, I've got to get this done. Or if someone does better than I do on this or goes faster, it might make me jealous. So what we would rather see than you getting your big rocks done by Thursday every week, is you being able to manage that feeling of pressure. You know what I mean? What would it mean to give yourself some grace? If you missed it on Thursday one week and had to work on it on Friday while your friends were playing games, how would you know that you are still okay?
Ellen Silvers [00:50:30] Honestly, I think I would still remember what you guys tell me every single week, that I always get it done. Just knowing that I still can get it done. I don't think playing games doesn't matter as much as my grade and how I do in school. And getting done computer programs is part of my grade, and I want my grade to be good. So I kind of just remember that I still can do it, and playing games isn't as important anymore.
Beth Silvers [00:51:10] And Ellen, what if we went to the very worst case? What if you got to the end of the day on Friday and you didn't finish your big rocks for the week?
Ellen Silvers [00:51:20] Honestly, I don't know. Maybe I would go home and feel probably sad, and I would eat some Belvedere cookies and make me feel better.
Beth Silvers [00:51:29] Well, sometimes a snack break is called for, but you would still be okay, right? You would just go back the next week and start again.
Ellen Silvers [00:51:35] Yeah, like a fresh start. That's one of my favorite things.
Beth Silvers [00:51:39] A fresh start. I totally agree.
Ellen Silvers [00:51:40] Think of HelloFresh.
Beth Silvers [00:51:43] Well, Ellen, thank you for talking to me about stress.
Ellen Silvers [00:51:46] It happens a lot. Trust me.
Beth Silvers [00:51:49] It does. Well, I hope that you know that you never have to feel that stress by yourself. We can always talk about it.
Ellen Silvers [00:51:55] Yeah, and that feels good to be able to talk about it.
Beth Silvers [00:51:59] Yeah, I think you're pretty great.
Ellen Silvers [00:52:01] But as a Gemini, I have researched and Geminis usually try to hide their feelings. I think that's true sometimes about me.
Beth Silvers [00:52:11] You do?
Ellen Silvers [00:52:12] Yeah. Sometimes I either do that or I just don't want to talk about it.
Beth Silvers [00:52:18] You often tell me you don't want to talk, but then when you do, what happens?
Ellen Silvers [00:52:21] I feel better.
Beth Silvers [00:52:22] Yeah. All right. Thanks for talking to me today. High five. Love you. Thanks to Jon Lowy. Thanks to Alise and Lisa. Thanks to my daughter, Ellen. And thanks to all of you for spending time with us today. All the information about our book club will be in the show notes. We hope you will join us there. Sarah will be back with you on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.
[00:52:45] Music Interlude.
Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.
Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement.
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