Campus Protests and The Trump Trial

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Campus Protests

  • Donald Trump’s Trial and Legal Morass

  • Outside of Politics: Busy Weekends

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Campus Protests

Donald Trump on Trial

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] Thank you so much for joining us today. Sarah, you just got back from New York City, which was timely.  

Sarah [00:00:36] Yeah. It's the center of so many things in the news right now.  

Beth [00:00:39] And the center of so many things we're going to talk about today. So first we are going to, at the request of many of you, spend a few minutes on the protests breaking out of college campuses across the country in connection with the Israel-Hamas conflict. Then we're going to talk about what's going on with the former president and current Republican frontrunner as he journeys through the legal system. And Outside of Politics, we're just going to catch up on our weekends because we both had big, full and very different weekends. Before we get started, we have lots of announcements. Sarah, you want to tell the people about some of the things we have planned?  

Sarah [00:01:16] We're making a move. We're making a move, everybody. We're moving from Mailchimp to Substack with our weekly newsletter. We send a newsletter every Friday. And there's a smorgasbord. Sometimes it's a note from me. Sometimes it's note from Beth. Sometimes it's a note from listeners. Sometimes it's an insight from Maggie or Alise, or it's a roundup of links from our listeners. Sometimes it's just a playlist. It's a place where we put the things that we can't fit on the show or in our premium content. And what we've learned over the last couple of years is that we really love places where our listeners can comment. We love places where listeners can comment that aren't Instagram, where we used to have a prolific and robust conversation platform. But that's not really what Instagram's for anymore. That's what we've learned. And so Substack is awesome because you can comment on these newsletters. They become posts that are easy to share with your friends and family. They're easy to go back and find old ones instead of searching in your inbox. It's a better layout and a better system, and we think it's going to be a really great place for our newsletter. So if you aren't already subscribed to our newsletter, please subscribe. If you're already subscribed, don't worry. You're going to get an email from us that we have moved to Substack on Friday for your weekly email. Beth gave everybody a little heads up last Friday, talked about why we're moving. Because this is also another place if you're not into premium content, you can't bring in more audio into your life, but you want to support the show. This is another way you can do that because Substack also has a financial component- totally by choice. Everybody will get the newsletter no matter what, but if you would just like to contribute to the show so we can continue to provide it for you on this feed, that would be a good way to do that. So we're very excited. We're very excited for this big move happening on Friday.  

Beth [00:02:59] We are. Our second announcement is just that we love for you to mark your calendars for next week, May 9th at 8 p.m. Eastern will be our next Spicy Live. Spicy Live means a chatty, chaotic virtual event for our premium members. Okay, we just really let loose in these environments. We talk about whatever everybody wants to talk about. It is a lot of fun. If you subscribe on Patreon, you'll get a link to join us there. If you subscribe via Apple Podcast and have not shared your email address with us before, please make sure that you fill out the short form in our show notes so that we can get the details to you, but mark your calendar May 9th at 8 p.m. eastern. Okay, next up, let's talk about these protest.  

[00:03:38] Music Interlude.  

[00:03:47] It has been helpful to me, Sarah, as I have taken in a lot of journalism about campus protests to begin by picturing a pie chart. I wish someone would actually make this, but I think about the pie chart of all college students. And I try to remember that the number of students involved in these protests would be the tiniest slice of that pie chart. And the big slice, the vast majority of that circle would look like students who are getting ready for final exams, and-- I don't know-- getting drunk at parties and doing community service work and working jobs so that they can pay for books and things like that. I just try to remember that we get outsized coverage from elite colleges, and we get outsized coverage of students who are active in protests, but that does not represent all college students at every university across the country.  

Sarah [00:04:42] Or all young people. Not everybody between the ages of 18 and 21 is in college. Matt Iglesias had a really great write up about what do young people actually care about? They're traditionally pretty disengaged. They're traditionally not regular voters. They're not dependable voters the way that people are as they age. And that's usually the reason you see any voter not being a regular voter is because they're not particularly engaged with politics. So we're definitely talking about a subset of this demographic in America that is abnormal in a way. I mean, anybody that's super engaged with politics, we are abnormal for our age group. But particularly for this age group. And I do think the reason that this has received an enormous amount of press coverage is that it did expand. It went beyond these elite universities. We're seeing it across the country. We're not just talking about the Ivies. You're seeing it at colleges that don't traditionally have these types of protests, that don't have a strong history of protests the way that Columbia University does. And so in a way, I understand when something is spreading and expanding that way, it makes sense to ask why? To ask what's going on there. But I do think it's important to always keep it into perspective, because I think it can become analysis about the presidential. And what does this mean for voters and all that. I think it's best to pump the brakes on that and to remember that this is a very small, particularly vocal subset of young voters.  

Beth [00:06:14] And then within that small, particularly vocal subset, you have a huge diversity of people involved and of things going on. So when you think about the protest groups themselves, you do have your kind of traditional undergrad, but you have older students as well. You have graduate students, you have faculty members, you occasionally have outside groups latching on to those protests. You have within pro-Palestinian groups, Jewish students ,as well as Muslim students, as well as people of no faith. You just see a huge diversity of people who have very different motives and different critiques of Israel's operations in Gaza, and different perspectives on how that situation ought to resolve and some of them, I think, have no perspective on how it should resolve. They just think what's happening now is unacceptable and want it to stop. And then you have protests about the response to protests, people who would not have gotten involved in protesting, but for universities that they believe have overreacted to the protests or unnecessarily brought in outside police. So a bunch of different things going on.  

Sarah [00:07:20] Well, and there's something about even the talking about it that I think is difficult. Because we're talking about protest. Upstaging the coverage of the actual conflict being protested. So you have actual progress being made in negotiations. You have Israel entertaining, putting on the table for the first time, ending the war. But that's not been on the table from their perspective this entire time. You have a call between Biden and Benjamin Netanyahu about an invasion of Rafah for which the Biden administration is opposed to. So you have all these pieces. And then the protests become the story when you still have enormous suffering in Gaza. So we're talking about arrest or people missing their graduation. But because we're protesting this enormous amount of human suffering, so it gets very complicated, very fast, and it just gets so incredibly difficult to talk about.  

Beth [00:08:22] It's easy for anything in higher education to become a raging fight in such an insular community. And when that raging fight intersects with world events but still maintains some features unique to higher education, it's just tough. I think that that is seen pretty clearly in some of the protesters demands. You have students-- and again there is a diversity of viewpoint in these groups. So I'm going to necessarily flatten some things out here. But the themes that are coming through in the journalism about these protests is that students want a permanent ceasefire in Gaza, which is something that their university administrators have absolutely no power to implement in any way. But that's a demand. They want an end to U.S. military assistance to Israel. The thing that most of them are demanding, that their university officials may be in a position to respond to, is divestment from arms suppliers or other companies that are in any way supportive of Israel. Now, that is complicated. And I think the word divestment sounds like it's a really concrete ask when I'm not sure that it is a really concrete ask. Universities are funded differently depending on whether their public or private. Assets are held differently by private universities. If you started to look at a mix of assets that support, say, an endowment, you would probably have disagreement among the protesters about how deep that connection needs to be in order for it to count. And researchers have said divestment campaigns don't really affect behavior the way that people who call for divestment believe they do. There's some holy pictures going on here. It feels really good to call for divestment, but it actually has pretty perverse consequences. Because when you sell stock, for example, in a company, because you care about an issue related to that company, you've lost your voice as to that company's behavior and given your voice over to someone who doesn't care as much about it as you do.  

Sarah [00:10:33] Well, I think most of us have the story of divestment with regards to South Africa and apartheid, that there was this big call from the international community and increased pressure and ended apartheid in South Africa. I'm not a South African historian. I have read a couple books about the truth and reconciliation process, but I am willing to say that it is more complicated than that, even though I am not a historian from South Africa. I think the story we tell ourselves in this weird way completely ignores South Africans and their fight to end apartheid, and makes it about the international community showing up and doing this one thing. And then the dominoes fell and it was all over. And I just think that's a very simplistic story about what happened around apartheid. And I think that divestment generally-- Columbia in particular, they have like a whole divestment committee where they've divested from private prisons and they've divested from some fossil fuel industries. But they have repeatedly said, we will not divest from Israel because we consider that anti-Semitic. Because I think that is a weird standard that one country would want to divest from. We're not going to divest from China over the treatment of the Uyghurs. We're not going to divest from Rwanda or Sudan or any other place that there's conflict. I think that we have created a narrative around divestment that is probably detached from history and definitely detached from the current reality of our geopolitical relationships.  

Beth [00:12:11] That is so related to a thing that just keeps coming to mind for me as I see this coverage. I find myself wishing that there could be a little privacy around these campuses to have those kinds of conversations, to talk about the history of divestment and what are we really asking for here, to talk about the parallels to Vietnam protests on college campuses. What is similar? What is different? What did we learn from that? What's effective today? Universities should be the perfect places for these conversations to be really layered and nuanced and to think about not only what are we trying to achieve today, but what do we want to take from this as we continue to be active people around different causes? You would hope in a university setting you could get everyone to agree that for the rest of your lives, students, there will be things in the world that are horrific and that you want to take a stand on. This is not the first or the last. That doesn't make it less important. I don't mean to be dismissive about it at all, but this is not the first or the last. So there has to be some learning around this as we go through it here on our campus. And I'm worried that all of the coverage, and especially the involvement of members of Congress, raised the stakes so much that there can't be any learning. The incentives, I think, have gotten really out of whack. Everyone is incentivized to just double down in their current position so they can keep talking to reporters, instead of being able to do some of that learning.  

Sarah [00:13:44] Yeah, I'm reading a biography of Hubert Humphrey right now. We're about to the 1968 convention. We're in the thick of it with Vietnam protesters. He was a prolific speaker as vice president, he traveled all over the country talking and defending the Johnson administration stance on the Vietnam War. And so I'm I'm thinking about those historical parallels, and I'm thinking a lot about, like, what did that student protest movement accomplish? I think the differences are very easy to identify. There was a draft, and we were actively engaged with the other country in a war. But I think even with those very easily identifiable differences, again, kind of flatten the story of what those protests accomplished. Some of those protests were violent. Some of those protests splintered the progressive movement and really long lasting ways. They splintered the Democratic Party in long and lasting ways. And in some ways, I think there's not an engagement with students. Even when I was protesting in college about sweatshop labor, there was no real examination. There was always sort of a glamorization of the '60s student protest movement. There wasn't a lot of historical analysis. Did it work? What did it help? Did it just raise the stakes? Did it just create college students as easy villains, as easy targets for an administration that wanted to defend their policy? I certainly believe that the college administrations are not looking at those lessons either, because a lot of what happened recently is they engaged with the protesters in very aggressive ways. The calling for the police in Columbia, there are some really horrific videos. And Atlanta, with the police departments engaging with the students. And what did that do? It raised the tip. Then the student protesters have another long list of demands. They want amnesty for anybody involved. It builds on this villainization of the administration, right? It just makes them an easy villain. It's doing both. It's making the students easy villains. It's making the administration easy villains. And no one's learning or engaging with each other.  

[00:15:52] I was talking to Griffin about this weekend. I said, if I could go back, if this was me but me now, if I was a college student but I had the memory of my 42-year-old self, I would just say, like, it's what we say here at Pantsuit Politics. What's actually going to be contributive? What is my job as a college student? Because I do think that the press coverage builds this perspective where it's like they are the center of the world and they're the only ones paying attention, and they're the only ones that care, and they're the only ones willing to do what it takes. And I understand that passion, and I understand that commitment and that feeling like I'm a young person and I see it clearly and no one else does. But there was a part of me that's like, well then, then go help because you are 20 years old and you do have low stakes, and you could in a lot of ways. You have the freedom to go to work for relief organizations. And I don't want to say like shut up and go do something about it. That's not what I mean. But I was just really trying to think like, if this was me and I was a college senior and I felt as passionately as I do now about this conflict and the human suffering and didn't have three kids and a full time job. I think that's what I would do. I think I would say, okay, I have the freedom within my career right now to say I can go somewhere instead of just feeling powerless. What action could I take to make me feel empowered? And I think that's what they're doing. I get it. I protested myself in college, but it's like looking back on it now and thinking back on past protest movements, I don't know the answer. Did it affect anything except for just push people further into their corners?  

Beth [00:17:33] I do think there are going to be long lasting political implications from these protests. I think about how many of the students who are not interested in these protests are affected by them, and what their story is going to be about political coalitions coming out of this? I think about Jewish students, even Jewish students who are extremely sympathetic to some of what the protesters want and the radicalizing impact of being afraid to go to your own college campus. I mean, there will be a long tale here. And I think in some ways all of the coverage tries to fast forward through that and say today what that's going to mean in 20 years for people. And that's where I think we get out over our skis. What does this mean for the election is out over our skis. The other thing that I've been considering in these protests is how important sturdy adults are around it. And I don't mean to say adult like the people involved aren't adults, of course they are. But people with some outside perspective. Bring in some of the Vietnam protesters to talk to these students. How do I view this now? Another real distinction from Vietnam is the effect of social media. You have people on these campuses right now who will change their minds about these issues as they get older, both about the substance of the issues and about the tactics. You'll have people who think they went way too far a few years from now. You'll have people who think they didn't do enough. I wish I had used my voice at that time in my life when I could. But people will change their minds. The internet and outsized coverage and social media makes it extremely hard to change your mind later on.  

Sarah [00:19:19] Well, they know that. That's why they're wearing masks.  

Beth [00:19:22] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:19:23] That's why they're all covering their faces up.  

Beth [00:19:25] Yeah. And that's the conversation I was having with my daughters about this over the weekend as they ask some questions. I think you just have to be really measured and considered about what kinds of activities you want to be involved in college, because you want to hold respect for your future self as well, and give yourself a little bit of space. It doesn't mean don't get passionate, don't get involved. I'm not critical of people who are peacefully protesting on these campuses, even if I totally disagree with how they see this conflict. But hold a little space for your future self in the process.  

Sarah [00:19:59] Well, and that's the thing. I mean, I think the other major distinguishing factor is the anti-Semitism presence within these protests. And I think these are very difficult question. Is anti-Semitic to call someone a Zionist? Is it anti-Semitic to call for the dissolution of Israel as a nation state? Is it peaceful to call for violence but not be violent? I read a really great Washington Post piece where they interviewed Jewish students and one had spent her gap year in Israel, and she talked about how "I got to campus ready to engage, and people shut me out." And she said very clearly, no, it's not a peaceful protest because they are calling for violence. And I thought, I hear that. I understand it. I understand that there was an escalation at Columbia and the calling of police, but all of this taking place during Passover feels like a lot to me. You know what I mean? It feels like a big ask to argue it's not anti-Semitic. It's taking place during Passover. One of the rules of the Columbia encampment was don't talk to Zionists. Like, what the heck? And I think that these are difficult questions. To me, I think the hard reality, particularly when I look to the sturdy adults around these people, when I look to the perspective of faculty members, what I see is something we've talked about on the show before, which is getting increased attention, which is that there is not a lot of diversity of thought, particularly at elite college campuses in America right now. So what happens when you have group think among faculty members and students, when the adults and the children-- because I don't think college students are adults. I'm just going to put that hot take out there real fast. But it's like you have this situation where everyone thinks and agrees, both the faculty and the students, that this is a moral outrage, that this is the end of the world.  

[00:21:56] There's no other faculty to say, hold up, wait a minute, I disagree with this. I feel differently about this topic. And so it's this fueling fire to where you get-- I don't know if you saw this, Beth, about the dean of UC Berkeley Law School, Erwin Chemerinsky, famous legal scholar, and was hosting these events at his private home for students. And the protesters would come to his house during this dinner in his backyard. And I'm like, to do what? Because he's Jewish and you want him to do what with regards to a cease fire? And he wrote a great piece in The Atlantic that was like, you don't have a First Amendment right to protest in my private backyard. And these are students. And I'm not saying that they don't have a right to protest, but you don't have a right to protest everywhere all the time in people's private lives. I don't know. I don't feel like any of these conversations can happen because there's a lack of diversity of thought, because there's this escalation fed by the national media, because there is an incredibly intense complicating factor of the anti-Semitism, because there is a lot of violent rhetoric. And there's some violence, like one of the students got stabbed in the eye with one of the flags. And then the presence of the police forces, it's just this completely self-perpetuating, self fueling fire.  

Beth [00:23:32] Well, I'm trying to hold a little space here on the adult question, just to remember that I went to a college where most people were 18 to 22, and that is not the situation. Increasingly, on campuses there are much older people, nontraditional students, and campuses are more diverse than when we were there. To the point about the First Amendment, I think it's important to hold the tension that public and private universities have different obligations around student protest and free speech. Private universities are in a better position to take a pretty sturdy adult posture about how and when and under what circumstances protests are going to happen and what the guidelines are, and to articulate some values about what language crosses in to hate speech and what language crosses into incitement to violence. It's a harder calculation for public universities because they get public money and Supreme Court precedent around speech rights of students in public schools, it's a mess, okay? It's very murky. It's very, very challenging.  

Sarah [00:24:39]  Look, I think all of this is important. I think conversations about free speech and public and private responsibilities and students right to approach all this. But is that what's breaking your heart about what's going on in Gaza, the role of the administration and the police on campus and college graduations? Because it does make me sad that the same kids that missed their high school graduation in 2020 are going to miss their college graduation in 2024. And also all of this, is this what we're all broken about with regards to the situation in Gaza? Because I don't think it is. And so it starts to feel like a distraction. I'm just going to be honest. It starts to feel like this isn't bringing needed attention, that this is distracting attention from what's happening and what we can actually do or contribute to that situation.  

Beth [00:25:37] I was listening to a report about the hostage videos that Hamas released and thinking something similar. We can get really insular. And another thing that I talk to you about in my family this weekend was my sense that peace begins with us. I try to live by the motto, let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me. And so bringing escalatory conflict into our spaces-- where we are lucky to be safe right now-- as a means of trying to bring peace elsewhere, doesn't resonate with me. I think that it is important for us to have vigorous debate in the United States over our military commitments all over the world and over our foreign policy posture all over the world. But I also hold in me a sincere desire to keep that vigorous disagreement confined and surrounded by a sense of gratitude for our relative peace and safety here. And I think that's another distinction between this conflict in Vietnam. Those activists were calling explicitly for peace, for us to withdraw and end that war. If you think about the next steps with Hamas, with Israel, with the entirety of that region, and the threats that Israel faces beyond Hamas and the longevity of different governing bodies for Palestinians, it's a much more complicated situation. It cannot be captured on a sign. And it is really hard for me to understand bringing this level of fire and disruption and potential for violence to a situation that is this complex and this far away.  

Sarah [00:27:36] Back to what I would be doing. There are some real ethical concerns about a $51 billion endowment. I'm not sure if how much of that is invested in Israel is the top one. If you want to have an ethical conversation as college students about billion dollar endowments, please do that. You are the constituency for that, and I would love to have some hard questions asked about whether or not an elite university needs a multi-billion dollar endowment. That'd be great. That would be great. Let's do that. Let's have that conversation. Let's protest around that. I think that's a great idea. I would be interested in that and I think that would be a really great application. I would be interested in universities that lead the way, that are doing the most groundbreaking instruction on artificial intelligence to have instruction, public forums, conversations about the fact that the IDF is using artificial intelligence to pick targets with very little human interaction. That's what I want to hear from MIT, because I don't understand what all that means. But I bet there are students there, 18 year olds even, who get that and could expound and share some insight in really, really helpful ways about what it means that we have a military picking targets using artificial intelligence. Please, I would like to hear from you on that. But it's like what can you put in? What is effective, what is related? As opposed to you're screwing it up and no one's listening. I don't know, I think that it's not moving anything forward. It's just raising the heat in a way that nothing can be said and nothing can be heard.  

Beth [00:29:32] And, look, if we are talking about 18 to 22-year-olds, I understand why that's their posture because they saw a lot of adults behaving that way during Covid. Their formative years saw an absence of sturdy adults. Their formative years have been surrounded by chaos and by a sense that no one is listening and no one can hear anything, and no one can sit down and have a reasonable conversation about how to solve a problem here at home. And so I get why we're here. And there are some cool headed and beautiful responses from students coming out about this too. And one that I thought might be nice to wrap up with today is from a Jewish student at Barnard College, Dalia Susan [sp] who was quoted in the Washington Post talking about how she worries about anti-Semitism in the protests but also worries about overreaction by police coming to campus to respond. And she just said, "Every value that I hold in my heart is in tension with another principle I hold deeply right now." And that's it to me. And I'm so appreciative of her willingness to articulate that, and appreciative of all of you who've reached out about this issue. And I'm sure this is a conversation that we will continue as we hold alongside it hope for all of the diplomatic efforts that are ramping up to bring some forward momentum in a positive direction in the actual region that is affected.  

[00:31:01] Music Interlude.  

[00:31:09] Hard turn, Sarah. Also in New York this week, you walked over to see for yourself what was going on around the courthouse, where Donald Trump is the first former U.S. president to be criminally charged and tried. So what was the scene like? What did you see?  

Sarah [00:31:25] Yes, I felt it was important to go down and get a vibe check. There's a public park across the street from the courthouse. We were able to walk right into the middle of the public park. There was so, so many barriers. I tried to walk around to the other side and the NYPD at every level was like, no, no, ma'am, you may not go that way. So it's very highly barricaded. But it was pretty boring. There were like six or seven pro-Trump people with giant Trump or Die flags, which I don't really understand the sentiment. Trump or Die-- like I don't...  

Beth [00:32:00] That's not how I feel about anything.  

Sarah [00:32:01] And it's not how I feel about it. I'm not really. I don't understand what that has to do with the trial. That flag would make a lot of sense to me at a rally. A little confused by it at a trial. Anyway, the most exciting thing that happened is that an NYPD community relations officer told me that my blazer was beautiful. That's it. That's what happened from the vibe check. That was the most exciting development.  

Beth [00:32:21] I think that's very nice and I'm glad for you and your blazer.  

Sarah [00:32:24] It's a very cute blazer.  

Beth [00:32:25] I'm sure it is. I've know that. I know that you like to dress to impress when you travel. Here's what I think is really good in that, trials are supposed to be boring.That's that's how it should be. This is a trial about false business records. There's going to be a lot of testimony that's real dry. There going to be some boring exhibits.  

Sarah [00:32:45] I mean, there's also a porn star [crosstalk].  

Beth [00:32:48] I'm getting there. I'm getting to the porn star.  

Sarah [00:32:50] Well, it was just funny because what was the most encouraging to me is that he keeps calling for protesters. He's like, come down, protest. My friend Dan was like, "I could get more than seven people there. Like me, myself personally, just among my family and friends." Because his family and friends are also not coming to this trial. So it was just kind of a little sad, but also encouraging because it was sad because he's calling up arms and nobody's coming.  

Beth [00:33:16] And I think that's good. I think a lot of things here are moving in a direction that is very normal, even though this is one of the most abnormal scenes you can possibly imagine. That we have a president on trial for a crime, that the story beneath those false business records charges involves such a gossip fest about the National Enquirer and hush money in an affair with an adult film star. There are layers to this for sure. And you can tell from reporters who are in the room that it's a real roller coaster, because there are these moments where like, wait, are we talking about Mark Wahlberg all of a sudden? But then the former executive assistant comes in to say, yes, Karen McDougal was in his contacts. And that's kind of boring, right? And that's just how it goes, because all of this has to get in front of the jury. This group of people who we know far more about than we would in most trials. But they have a range of knowledge about what went down here. And everything has to be submitted officially into evidence in front of them for them to make some decisions. Beth, I know that we are both serious people with law degrees, and this is a ahistorical important event. But are we going to talk about the farting?  

Beth [00:34:42] About the what?  

Sarah [00:34:43] The farting. Have you heard this?  

Beth [00:34:44] I hadn't planned to talk about it. No.  

Sarah [00:34:47] I need to talk about it.  

Beth [00:34:49] Okay.  

Sarah [00:34:49] Commenter on the news brief said, according to reports, he has been prolifically farting during these court days. And I have not been able to stop thinking about it. I'm sorry.  

Beth [00:35:01] You don't need to apologize. I think that he does most of what he does with some intention.  

Sarah [00:35:07] You think he's farting on purpose?  

Beth [00:35:10] A hundred percent, yes.  

Sarah [00:35:10] No. Why would he do that?  

[00:35:12] This is a person who there are reported stories about how, at the end of depositions, he will look at women who are opposing counsel and say, "See you next Tuesday," no matter what day of the week it is. He's gross. He's adolescent in the way that he interacts with people. So, yes, I think in a courtroom where he is not allowed to speak and he's pissed off about absolutely everything that's happening, that he would very much intentionally pollute the room. That's what I think.  

Sarah [00:35:38] That's so gross. That's so interesting because my perspective was just like, it's so deeply humanizing. To me, it's been kind of a positive thing because it just-- and I think it has to have impact. All this falling asleep, him just being in the trial, it just takes all the wind out of the sails that makes him Donald Trump politically. All the political strong man, sticking up the middle finger outsider, and here he is, silenced, sleepy and farting in a criminal court. And I am sorry if this does not have impact on his polling and the presidential election, then I don't understand anything not only about American politics, but about basic human psychology.  

Beth [00:36:25] Well, I think that's fair, and I hear all of that. I just also still think that he might be doing this on purpose.  

Sarah [00:36:30] I mean, that's true. It's not like he's wouldn't understand. It's not like he didn't think carefully about how this could impact him. I mean, he never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I guess that includes farting.  

Beth [00:36:38] I could imagine that occasionally he scratches his ear with his middle finger in the direction of the prosecutors. Like, this is the level at which he operates.  

Sarah [00:36:49] No, you're right. You're right. 

Beth [00:36:52] And it is the level at which a lot of this story occurs. I thought when you said we're serious people, are we going to talk about that, you were going to fill in the rest of that sentence with the fact that the first witness is named David Pecker, and he was the person who was making a lot of payments to kill stories on Trump's behalf.  

Sarah [00:37:10] It's like the [inaudible], did you not see? I don't remember who it was, but somebody was like Trump concerned about leaking Pecker. I mean, guys, what are we doing here? But, listen, can I just add-- Beth's head is falling in a very dramatic way. And so I just want to say here though, again, I'm kind of in it with this trial now. I've really put myself in a situation, especially things the Supreme Court, clearly we're not going to get to anything related January 6th before the election. It ain't happening, y'all let it go. Everybody move on with your lives. But I'm like, you know what? I'm not even mad about it because I think there's something about the Letitia James case and this one. First of all, it's just chronological. This is the bad shit he did first. He falsified his tax records for neon decades. He did this when he was still running as a presidential candidate. And there's something about that. It's like, okay, well, you weren't even president yet. So this isn't really about they're coming to get your policies or they're out to get you. This is just how you behave. And there's something deeply satisfying about like an orderly march through all the bad things he's done. It's just orderly walk through as we learned about them. I would like to get to eventually that he-- remember at the very beginning he said Obama was bugging him. Maybe we'll get to that eventually. I don't know if there's something about that. Maybe it's the Enneagram One in me that's like, yeah, let's just deal with this stuff in order.  

Beth [00:38:29] I do think that it was always unlikely that we were going to have any kind of resolution of the biggest issues surrounding his conduct, especially after the 2020 election, in advance of the November election this year. And I do think that's okay, because we have ample information as voters to make an intelligent decision on whether he should be president again. There is not ample information yet on whether he should retain his liberty, and that is going to go through a process. And that process will have implications for the long haul. In this case, I think what we are learning about Donald Trump is, one, every single person attached to him understood how transactional he was. Every single person attached to him understood that they were always dancing on the edges of legality in their dealings with him. David Pecker, this first witness who used to be in charge of the media company that runs the National Enquirer, understood from his experience working with Arnold Schwarzenegger 20 years ago when he ran for governor, knew that he had exposure for campaign finance violations by helping Trump and checked on it. Michael Cohen knew that he couldn't explicitly commit to repay the Enquirer for some of the stories that they bought. But he said phrases like the boss will take care of it. The boss is a friend. The people who were closest to and liked Donald Trump best in the world, including David Pecker, who still says," He was a mentor to me." Can you imagine you're on the witness stand in a criminal trial after your company has had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines related to things that you did for this person, but you're still like, "He's a mentor." So it's not just a bunch of liberals who hate Trump involved in these trials. There are people who are close to him, but even those closest to him understood that always it was a shady deal with Donald Trump. And I think that's enough for the voting public to understand as we decide-- I don't know-- should he have access to the most top secret national security information in the country?  

Sarah [00:40:47] Look, speaking of vibe checks, presidential voting is a vibe check. It just is. That's a lot of what happens, okay? I'm sorry. I wish it were different. It's not. And I just think the vibe of an actual president traveling on Air Force One doing literal campaigning while the other dude is in a criminal proceeding, sitting there silently getting yelled at by the judge-- I just can't. Because I think the more this goes on and the longer the present perception of him is as a criminal defendant, it'll raise some of that Trump nostalgia. It'll erase the last visuals they had of him as president. Some of it is just like the last person that talked to you. It's like the last predominant story that filled in the holes around Donald Trump for you. Like in 2016, so much of it was the apprentice. And then in 2020, so much of it was Covid and telling you to inject bleach. And I think that even with these delays, a lot of it is going to be this. This story that he's been sitting in trial for months. Now, it's still pretty early, but if he's found guilty, when would the sentencing be? I don't even know. What if he's actually in jail? The more this goes on I'm like, oh my God, that could happen. Like, that could actually happen. That is a thing that could happen. It's a little bit blowing my mind, and if it's disrupting my perception of him, I have to imagine it's breaking through to people who aren't as engaged, who are independent voters, who are waiting to remember that there's going to be a presidential election in November.  

Beth [00:42:33] I think it could happen. I think is unlikely to happen. Not that I think he's unlikely to be convicted here, but I just don't know the pace that this process will move and the appellate component of it. I'm just prepared for there to be no criminal resolution whatsoever in advance of November. And if there is, then that will be so weird and we will have to deal with that. But I also think it's important to just set your expectations with kind of the universe that we have now. There are a lot of really big issues surrounding Donald Trump. He is, in one sense, racing against the clock to try to get to the election so that he can hopefully win and hopefully make them all go away. And that is his motivation for running for president. Donald, why are you running for president? Well, I'd like to stay out of jail. That's what this race is about for him. Also, I'd like to not be poor at the end of it. I'd like to be able to continue to raise money, because if I have to finance my defenses on my own dime, I cannot do it. That's where we are with him.  

Sarah [00:43:40] And can I just take a moment at camera two and say, Ron DeSantis, if you, as a prolific fundraiser, make peace with this man so that you can pay his legal fees--  

Beth [00:43:49] I don't even know.  

Sarah [00:43:50] You need better friends. You need some friends in your life who care about you. That's all I have to say.  

Beth [00:43:56] Well, it's a weird situation, but we will continue to follow. But right now, the trial is just bumping along. Witness witnesses one, two and three have been on, and they'll continue. But the level of detail that we need to follow it in is going to vary based on the issues that the judge thinks are important. A criminal trial is really hard to follow, because here we have not only the testimony of the witnesses, but we have evidentiary issues and we have the gag order out there.  

Sarah [00:44:23] Yeah. [Inaudible] that's like a whole other thing.  

Beth [00:44:26] It's like alongside this proceeding, prosecutors are coming in and saying, you need to hold Trump in contempt because four times since a few days ago, he has violated a really explicit order of the court.  

Sarah [00:44:38] When you told him not to. Yeah. I wonder what's going to happen there. I do think it's time to put up or shut up. I don't necessarily think he's completely without consequences. He has clearly calibrated himself some. But if I was a judge, it would not be enough for me.  

Beth [00:44:56] I agree. I don't have any particular stake in Donald Trump landing in jail at any point. I just don't. That that is not my definition of justice. I don't want him to be the president again, but my really only interest in his criminal proceedings is trying to uphold the integrity of the process. I do not want him to break absolutely everything. And I think that being able to protect witnesses and jurors and court staff and the family members of people who work for court staff, that is paramount to me in this trial, whatever else happens. So I do hope that the judge will (as he has so far) be courageous in figuring out how to balance all the interests at stake here.  

[00:45:43] Music Interlude.  

[00:45:51] It is time now for what one of our listeners brilliantly nicknamed the exhale of the episode, Outside of Politics section, because we all exist beyond what we think about headline news. And, Sarah, I thought today we could just talk about our weekend. So I would love to hear about your trip to New York City.  

Sarah [00:46:06] Yes, we were in New York this weekend. It was a beautiful spring weekend. Tulips a bloom, cherry blossoms everywhere. I feel like I got a little additional spring because all the flowering things have stopped flowering where I live. So it was fun to go to New York City and see them again. And we went to the MoMA, we went to see The Wiz, which was amazing, such incredible vocal performances. I made everybody pick their favorite song, but I was like, but you can't pick Ease on Down the Road because it's a bop and that's going to be everybody's favorite. So one favorite song except for Ease On Down the Road.  

Beth [00:46:42] What were some of those elections?  

Sarah [00:46:44] Everybody liked the Tin Man song. I liked Brand New Day. I thought it was really, really beautiful. It's just a joyful show, but that song is like the culmination. The performances are just insane. Nichelle Lewis, who plays Dorothy, I was like, she's not very old and she just slayed every single song. It was so good. We all really, really enjoyed it. And Nicholas and I went to see Appropriate with Sarah Paulson with some of my friends. I hadn't been to a play-- like not ever, but in a very long time. We were like a big musical family. And Norma [sp] had convinced me it's time to branch out. Sarah Paulson's performance is riveting. She's not exactly likable, but you can't look anywhere else, let's put it that way. It's very much about siblings and family and sort of inter-generational dynamics. We had great food. I love it there. I really love it there. I had such a good time.  

Beth [00:47:41]  Can I confess to you that every time in this episode I've said New York City, I feel like I'm in a baked beans commercial or something. "In New York City." 

Sarah [00:47:48] Or you can do a Hamilton, "New York City."  

Beth [00:47:51] Yeah, if you don't know who Norma is, who Sarah just related to, she is a long time listener of the show and a really active and just wonderful member of our premium community. So, Sarah, you got to meet Norma and another listener, right?  

Sarah [00:48:05] I got to meet Norma in real life and Mary Margaret. Yes, we had coffee. It was so fun to get to see and hug Norma in real life. Yeah, because eventually it's like you enter the echelon, you become a brand, you become a Dante, you talk to us enough, we become friends, and then I just start talking about you like you're one of my kids or my husband.  

Beth [00:48:27] Can I tell you that one of the joys of my weekend was hearing from Bren, one of those long listeners. He texted me while I was at a garden center with pictures of him getting engaged. So big congratulations to Brennan Stephanie [sp].  

Sarah [00:48:42] Congratulations, Bren. I'm going try not to get mad that I didn't get a direct text, Bren, but that's okay. I'm still happy for you.  

Beth [00:48:49] I am like a nosy aunt to, Bren. I just text him frequently. How are we doing? What's going on in your life? Are you happy and well? So I really was excited to see you there in Italy. I just hope they're having the time of their lives. I'm so happy for him. And it was his birthday this weekend, so lots of celebrating of Bren there.  

Sarah [00:49:06] What did you do this weekend?  

Beth [00:49:07] Oh, man, it's just Maycember already. Even though it's still April, it's Maycember  

Sarah [00:49:11] Maycember. I really I don't know how we magically squeezed the strip. I was thinking like, man, it was like we slid into base. And I was looking this weekend, there was like a middle school orchestra concert, and we would have been at that last year, it's just Griffin's in high school. We just found a little teeny tiny window that was available to us.  

Beth [00:49:28] I don't know how you did it either, I guess because Easter was so early. Yeah, that Maycember has just creeped. But we are 18 days from the last day of school and our calendar feels like it. So we had competing concerts on Saturday, Jane had a violin concert, and Ellen had a choir concert nowhere near each other And, so my parents came up and helped us. We could be sure that we had two loving adults at each of those performances. We were able to yank Jane before the last ensemble performed. As soon as she was off stage, we took her to the parking lot. I have not driven so hard in a while to get from one to the other, and we did make it. I did get to see both of them do their performances, but it was like that stress all day. Am I going to make all these things? Can I do it? Yes, it's possible so I must. You know what I mean? I spoke to a book club about our first book I Think You're Wrong but I'm Listening. A group of local physicians that one of our sorority sisters is part of. So that was a lot of fun. My parents were here. They spent the night. We took them out to dinner. We had all kinds of things going on at church yesterday. Chad is trying to get our garden started. Like, you can just feel all of the things. So I stayed in that sort of worrying mode all weekend, and I'm kind of thinking when can we just get to summer? I'm ready to get out of this school year and take a beat and reassess our commitments and figure out what we want our family dynamic to be next.  

Sarah [00:51:02] Yeah, we had a conversation in the car on the way to New York. I'm like, who's still committed to their music lessons? Because I want to have a conversation about that before next school year. And Nicholas is doing the Boy Scout? In the year. Where are we who can move up a rank? What else do we need to finish up? That's why I like beginning of the school year and end of the school year, because it's that chance to be like, what's working, what's not working, before we move into the summer. I told you I'm realizing that maybe that's why I have a stressful situation with summer, is because I don't want to do anything because it's sunny outside. So it feels like we shouldn't be doing things. You know what I'm saying? Sound like the weather turns nice, and I think that we should probably just be sitting on the porch talking.  

Beth [00:51:47]  I did sit on the porch for a couple of hours yesterday, and I did many things while I was sitting on the porch, but they were all made better by the fact that I was sitting on the porch.  

Sarah [00:51:57] There you go.  

Beth [00:51:58]  I was a much happier person. I do really want to focus on something like an after action review with my kids about this school year.  

Sarah [00:52:06] I like it.  

Beth [00:52:06] I'm trying to figure out what questions I want to ask, and how I can frame that, where it is appropriate for an almost nine and 13-year-old. But there are some places where I really felt tension in this school year that was new. And then there were some things that I thought we did really well that I want to build on. So as much as my family rolls their eyes when I get out the post-it notes and Sharpies, I think they should just prepare themselves because I'm getting in that mode right now.  

Sarah [00:52:31] That's right. Well, and that's what I think I'm going to do with my school system. I legitimately am going to go to the next board meeting and discuss the tech usage in our school system and bring up my concerns. Because I think it's easy when we're all peak frustration with infinite campus and xyz math curriculum to be like, okay, we're done. We can just think about it next school year. But these administrators are going to be thinking about it all summer. That's when they're going to be making the decisions. They're not going to make them in August. They're going to make them now. At the end, they're going to do and end of the school year review. And I just think if you are like us and you felt a lot of frustrations-- obviously our comment sections indicate that other people share these concerns that we talked about on Friday's episode-- then, man, don't wait until the new school year. Send an email, go to the board, say I have concerns about this tech usage. I mean, you guys, you can't write this stuff. Griffin is in in-school detention today because he was on his computer after we had this conversation on Friday. And guess what the administrator told me when I called? I hate him, too. So I'm going to the board meeting. That's going to be my end of the year action review.  

Beth [00:53:36] Well, one of the things that I love about making this show is that we talk about something and we do hear from lots of people. So I would love it if you are a school administrator to tell us what are the most effective things to do in this window of the year? When is it helpful to start hearing from us? What's the most constructive way that you can hear from parents who have these concerns? Because we want to be effective advocates-- not just loud ones, but effective ones. Kind of a call back to the beginning of the show here, and we'd love to hear from those of you-- I know there are many of you out there with expertise. So thank you all so much for being here today. We know that we hit on some hot topics, and we hope our conversation can add to the discussions that are going on in your group text and among your friends. You can always share our episodes by copying the link in your podcast player or going to our website Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. You can stream our episodes there. You can find full transcripts if you have people who are like, I don't do podcasts. Our website is the place to direct them to get them looped into these conversations. And don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter this week as we make the journey over to Substack. We're really excited to see you there. We'll be back with you here on Friday and on our premium shows Good Morning and More to Say. Between now and then, everybody have the best day available to you.  

[00:54:48] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

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