Did the EPA Just Ban Gas Vehicles? (Spoiler: No)

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Trump’s ‘God Bless the USA Bible’

  • EPA Emission Standards and the Future of Cars

  • Outside of Politics: Headlice is No Fun

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EPISODE RESOURCES

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] We are so glad that you're here today. We know there's a lot going on in the world. We have been learning about the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse, grieving the loss of life there, marveling at the courage and resilience on display from so many people who are involved. I love the posture of the people on scene investigating, who are saying, "We aren't going to make any conclusions until we're done gathering the evidence." I think that's the right way to be in the world, so we will respect that today and just say we are so sad for the loss of life there. We're also learning more about the horrific act of terrorism that killed so many people in Moscow. And we have been keeping up with the news surrounding the former president. Today, we are going to spend a minute with the former president, current Republican frontrunner Donald Trump.  

Sarah [00:01:12] And new Bible salesman.  

Beth [00:01:14] New bible salesman. We're going just going to talk about his latest business venture. And then we want to pull back from the most recent headlines to discuss the EPA's new role on emissions from cars. We're excited to dive into the details and the pros and cons of that new role, and kind of the vision behind it as we see it. And then Outside of Politics, Sarah is going to share some very valuable parenting advice with everyone. Very practical, valuable parenting advice.  

Sarah [00:01:40] I'm a head lice expert. It's not who I wanted to be, but it is who I am. We're also getting ready to launch sales for our Summer Book Club box. This includes two works of fiction that came highly recommended by our premium members, who are already in the book club. They carry on the conversations we've been having this semester about the politics of place, and we are so excited to share those with you. As always, our premium members get that information first, and will have the opportunity to buy one of the limited run boxes with the books and some treats curated by Lisa at The Bookshelf, Irvington. If you're not a premium member already, this is a great time to join.  

Beth [00:02:09] Next up, We're going to talk about that weird video where Donald Trump is selling Bibles.  

[00:02:13] Music Interlude.  

[00:02:23] Sarah as we are recording on Thursday, it is opening day here in Cincinnati, which is basically a holiday opening day for the Reds. Very excited for baseball season to return. And so earlier this week, Chad and I were out getting some Reds gear just to be ready to really embrace the season. And he was trying on a variety of different baseball hats. I don't know if you've ever shopped with a man for a baseball hat, but it's art form. So I'm kind of scrolling my phone while he is trying on baseball hats, and I keep seeing this video of Trump holding a Bible. And we get to the parking lot. And I said, "Chad, have you seen this video of Trump with a Bible?" He said, "No." I was like, "Let's just watch this together. I think this is going to be interesting." So we start watching it and he says, hi everybody, it's your favorite president here with Lee Greenwood. God bless the USA Bible." And Chad's like, this cannot be real. And I said, "I know, it kind of has like a weird deep fake feel to it, doesn't it?" I said, "But look at the people who are posting it." He's like, "I don't know, you should check that." Well, over a period of days, I see AP report on it and realize I think that was a real thing. I think he actually is selling a Bible branded by Lee Greenwood, containing a copy of the Declaration of Independence in the Constitution, and that's a lot to take in.  

Sarah [00:03:46] I think the tagline was 'Make America pray again.'  

Beth [00:03:52] What do you think Trump's personal prayer life looks like? That's not fair. I take it back.  

Sarah [00:03:57] That's fair. This man is not a Christian. I know that he says that he is. And I know we're not supposed to posit on other people's religion or faith, but I feel comfortable with that. I just do. I feel real comfortable saying that's a no. Christian nationalism is nothing but a branding opportunity to him.  

Beth [00:04:17] I feel like this video was created in a lab for the specific purpose of upsetting our audience.  

Sarah [00:04:24] True.  

Beth [00:04:25] Because we have so many listeners who grew up in pretty conservative communities of faith who are struggling with who and how they want to be in the world now, on the other side of an experience that was for many of them ranging somewhere from hurtful to devastatingly toxic. And so this really pokes at all of those dynamics from the past, as well as dynamics from the present, where you love and are in relationship with people who think that Trump is chosen by God to lead this country. And so it's not just this video and the deep fake feel of it; it's this video as symbol of this really painful thing a lot of people are struggling with.  

Sarah [00:05:21] Well, it has some real tax collectors in the temple vibes, you know what I'm saying?  

Beth [00:05:26] It does indeed.  

Sarah [00:05:27] And in the middle of Holy Week leading up to Easter, I'm sure it was not an accident to come out and basically thumb your nose at people's faith who disagree with you, to say there is only one way to be a Christian and it is to support Donald Trump. Which falls in a long line of experiences many of our listeners had inside the church. So there's only one way to be a Christian is to be a Republican. And that argument has only become more intense that not only is there only one way to go be a Christian, but there's only one way to go to heaven. That he is like the second coming of Christ sent here to save America. That he is chosen by God. That he is God's warrior. I mean, it's easy to roll your eyes and laugh at. So easy. But it is real to people out there living it. On both sides, there are people who are swept up in this, who believe this, who believe that all is lost if Trump is not elected. This week, I don't even know how it came up, maybe we were talking about this Trump Bible, I don't remember, but I said to my dad, "Do you remember when you told me that Obama was going to institute Sharia law?" I never said that. I said, "You did say that. That's what you believed. You thought he was going to institute Sharia law and take all our guns away. That was a thing." And he was like, "I don't remember that.".  

[00:07:03] I'm like, well, it was real because I sent myself a reminder once he was out of office, to just point out to you. Look, see, it didn't all happen. And I'm honestly at this point with people. Like, what are we going to do? We just don't have a lot of options except for saying, "Well, you told me that Joe Biden was going to win and then immediately put Kamala Harris in office, and that didn't happen. Now you're telling me if Joe Biden wins, America is going to cease to exist." So you also told me x, y, z about Obama. You also told me x, y, z about the election of Joe Biden. None of these happened. None of these things happen. So at what point do we get to say, "Hey, maybe this enmeshment of fear somewhere between prediction and prophecy and Donald Trump is perhaps not a healthy mix." Now, I think the Bible is the least of this, to be honest with you. The merchandising, I can not reserve energy for that. I have to direct that at other places. I just can't get upset about the tennis shoes or the Bible or any of his desperate attempts to fundraise, because I think we have bigger fish to fry. But this merchandising is a manifestation of a real sickness. I don't know what else to call it.  

Beth [00:08:25] The Bible does hit me differently than the shoes. I take your point. I think you're right. But it does hit me differently than the shoes, mostly because in both directions this is not what we're supposed to be doing. Like in America, we started with the idea that we don't have a national religion. And so putting our founding documents with the Bible really bugs me. And then in the other direction, as people of faith, we are not supposed to be about a political kingdom on earth. It's all the things. So it hits me differently. But I think that you're right; we have to compartmentalize and prioritize. And in that vein, what you're saying to your dad is a good note. For me when I talk about what I think would happen if Trump were reelected, I want to be as specific as possible about that. Not the world will end, America will be over, we will all have to move to another country. These are the things that I think are likely to happen, and here's why I think they're likely to happen. I think that's the work of persuasion that we have to do. I'm also sympathetic, though, to what another thing this video symbolizes, which is can you even do the work of persuasion with people who believe that he is a messenger from another realm? It's dispiriting, to say the least.  

Sarah [00:09:52] Yeah. I don't think that you can shame them out of it. That's just going to cause people to double down. So there's got to be some real jujitsu where you're leaning in when they expect you to come at them hard. And, for me, with the Bible, I think all sort of merchandising of the Bible is gross. I don't like to be in a LifeWay Christian store, okay? I think it's weird. I don't like to eat a chocolate cross on Easter Sunday. I think it's weird. But that ship sailed way before Donald Trump. So do I think that him getting on this gravy train is surprising? Absolutely not. But it's no more or less upsetting to me than a lot of the other merchandising. I was watching that trailer for the new Alex Jones documentary, and there's this great line where they say it's not infowars, it's infomercial. And I thought, yeah, that's it. That's it for a lot of this movement. Like these traveling circuses where basically it's just one big fair where they sell you either prepping material, which is also a growing industry on the left. Make no mistake, lots of money to be made making people afraid on both ends of the political spectrum. And all of it, it's just gross. But it's also not new. There's always been money to be made in politics and not just in donations. And so I just try to kind of be aware of it, but also not feel despondent in the face of it. I think there's a balance to be found in lots of ways with Donald Trump. Because I think you're right, the specificity is key. Not it's going to be the end of the world and he's a monster. Because making him a monster is no better or worse than making him a savior. He's just a guy. Just a guy with some really intense personal psychosis that just happened to find a moment in American history and took his shot, okay? But I do think saying like, well, he said he'll place all these tariffs that's going to raise everybody's prices. Are you okay with that? I just want to be clear. This will take us back to the problems of shutting down immigration and having no labor and placing tariffs on everything out of some sort of personal beef with Europe and therefore raising prices on everything. So if you want to have no workers and high prices again, that's fine. I didn't love it. I don't want that again. But that level of specificity I think is important. And you can't get to that if you're saying he's the devil because he's selling a Bible.  

Beth [00:12:31] The specificity is key to our next topic as well. If you have seen headlines about the EPA's new tailpipe emissions regulation as harshest standards ever, government bans all cars but electric vehicles, we need to check in on that. We need to read the fine print. So that's what we're going to do next.  

[00:12:52] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:13:01] Beth, I would say reading the fine print of administrative rulings is not our strong suit as Americans.  

Beth [00:13:06] It is not. But I would say this entire topic is exhibit A for read the whole article before you comment. Based on the headlines I saw, I thought I was going to have some real disagreement with what the EPA did here. When I actually went and read the rule, I was like, I think they did a pretty good job. So let's discuss headline writing for a second. You saw in lots of places that these are the harshest standards ever. That has been true of every new standards set since the 1970s, because we aren't going to go backwards in what we expect in terms of pollutants. We're only going to go forward. I was talking to Chad about this and he said, it's kind of like the new iPhone is the best one. Well, we hope so.  

Sarah [00:13:55] The camera is better. It's faster.  

Beth [00:13:57] Exactly. What are we what are we doing if we're not making it better every time? So, yes, it is the harshest standard ever, but that is to be expected. This is the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency exercising its authority under the Clean Air Act. This is not their Cafe standards. So some of you might know that we get federal standards on the miles per gallon of fuel economy, but those come from a different government agency. They will probably be announced this summer. This is about what your vehicle can actually put into the environment through its tailpipe. And it has two components. And I think this is really getting lost too. Yes, it is about climate and greenhouse gas emissions, but it is also just about like clean air now and our health now.  

Sarah [00:14:43] This feels to me like the real opportunity. Where are all my people concerned with the chemicals? Where are my friends worried about the lead in the Stanley cups? Because I feel like they'll be excited about this. It feels to me-- and I got to say, we're reading Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, in our premium community, and it's really helping me.  

Beth [00:15:04] Me too.  

Sarah [00:15:05] Because this is what we do in America. We just individualize. We are such individualists. It's a real kitsch and has been for hundreds of years. And so, to me, instead of focusing on our individual concerns about chemicals and pollutants that we all talk about constantly on Instagram, we say, you're restricting my freedom. But you guys, we cannot have both things. If you are constantly concerned about corporate America and the health care industry lying to you and pumping toxins into your bloodstream, cool. We are going to have to have regulation to address that. Unless you really think we're going to get at it with reels, which I don't personally think we're going to get at it with reels. We are going to have regulations, and we have shown a capacity to do that. I've said this before, I'll say it again. Everybody used to smoke- puppies, babies, everybody smoked. And now people don't smoke. As a general rule, when I see someone smoking, it catches me off guard because I'm like, oh right, people still smoke. That's wild. This is what we're going to have to get to, and we have. It must be some sort of psychological trick that we do that when something just becomes normal, we forget that it did. It used to be normal and then it was a giant lift to get here. And so then we talk about that sort of lift in other areas of our lives we're like, well, that could never happen. It could and it does. Because they used to just put toxic sludge in our water sources and still we're not great on that. Did you read that article about the rise of colorectal cancers and how it is primarily along the Mississippi Delta that they see a lot of this geographic concentration? I have some thoughts and concerns about that. So I would like the EPA to do anything and everything to get pollutants before we even talk about climate change. And I feel like everybody else would too, if they could just see it like that, as opposed to some sort of restriction on their individual freedom.  

Beth [00:17:08] I think that's right. I know we love cars. Cars still create air pollution that is linked to serious health problems, respiratory illnesses, cardiovascular issues, cancer, for people all over the country. We can address that and we have the technology to address it. Our manufacturing has gotten sophisticated enough to handle these rolls, and the cars that we just drive are the largest contributor within transportation to greenhouse gas emissions. So we're targeting a problem that is both linked to the help of present people today and future people. And that seems like a net positive.  

Sarah [00:17:53] And also could save you money. Why are people mad? I don't understand why people are mad.  

Beth [00:17:58] I think people are mad mostly because electric cars are so weirdly controversial. So the big thing I want people to know, if you just think electric vehicles are the dumbest and you hate everything about it, and you're posting things on Facebook about how they're heavy and all the things that they can't do and how charging sucks, that's okay. Because these rules are tech neutral. They do not require everyone to have an electric car for evermore. The way these rules are written, they are about an average across a product line. They don't care if it's an electric car, if it's a hybrid, if it's about greater fuel efficiency. If you're just improving your tailpipe controls, if you're adding more electrification to the power train but not going full electric, the EPA doesn't care. Manufacturers get to make those decisions. They can decide how they meet that average across their portfolio of vehicles. And the EPA has done some research and said it would be feasible to meet these standards without adding any new electric vehicles. Wouldn't be the most cost effective way to do it, probably wouldn't be the smartest, definitely wouldn't be the most efficient, but it can be done. So this is not forcing electric vehicles down everyone's throats.  

Sarah [00:19:17] Well, and if it was, don't you think the car manufacturer would be mad about that? And they're not. Why are you mad if they're not mad? They got a lot more on the line than you do. With all love. I had this conversation with someone about the eclipse because people are concerned about gas shortages. I have a friend whose mother is stockpiling gas.  

Beth [00:19:42] For the eclipse?  

Sarah [00:19:44] Yes.  

Beth [00:19:44] Why?  

Sarah [00:19:45] I don't know. Because I said, "Do you think that you are more concerned about this than the people who make and sell gas for a living? Do you not think that they want to make as much money as humanly possible during this time period, and that there are people who figure out how much gas is going to be needed when everyone's driving to the eclipse?" I don't know. I struggle when people think that they're the center of the argument always, that there's no these big, massive players. Even in my state [inaudible] and the real estate agents. He was like, it's not that big of a deal. It's not going to change anything or do anything wrong. And I'm like, that's what you think? They paid $450 million to say we weren't doing anything wrong and everything's fine, nothing's going to change? Come on. Does that sound right to you? Does that sound right to you?  

Beth [00:20:37] Well, the vision of the rules would be that we would get to a little over half of new vehicles being electric within the window of this rule. Because if we did that, we would avoid more than 7 billion tons of carbon dioxide emissions in the next 30 years, which would be like removing an entire year of all greenhouse gases emitted in the United States. That would result in a whole bunch of things, one of them being $13 billion (with a B) of public health benefits, because we would improve our air quality so significantly. So that seems like a really desirable future. Fifty six percent of new vehicles being electric by 2032, that sounds right to me.  

Sarah [00:21:22] Yeah. And I just think maybe shrinking the timeline helps people see it. We're not asking you to make giant sacrifices, so maybe in 20, 40, 50 years, you'll see some benefit. I guess that's what it feels like when people talk about electric cars. You're asking me to shoulder all this sacrifice, and maybe it'll help, and maybe it won't. Or maybe I don't even think it's a problem. I don't know how anybody still thinks climate change isn't a problem, but clearly people have some real weird compartmentalization, because I don't understand why everybody keeps moving south. That's very confusing to me. How is Phoenix still growing? I don't understand. So there's clearly some sociological research or principles that I'm not quite wrapping my head all the way around. But either way, I don't feel like anybody is like, yes, more gas. People complain about gas prices all the time, and I'm not going to sit here as a Tesla owner and tell you that it's always a paradise. It's not. It's frustrating sometimes. The infrastructure is getting better every single time I take a long trip, but it's not as easy to take a long trip with an electric car as it is with a gas powered car. Let me just be honest about that. It's not you. There's a little more thinking involved. Often less money, but a little more thinking involved and planning. And that's fine. And it's weird. Paradoxically, you would think the people who have long drives would hate electric vehicles, but really they seem to be figuring out the most. I read an article about how all these super commuters are like, get me an electric car right now. I'm not really sure who has the logistical problem or if it even is a logistical problem, or if it's just an emotional political problem.  

Beth [00:23:03] I think back to a conversation we had in the very early days of this podcast with Bob Inglis, who is a Republican who started an organization to talk about conservative solutions to climate change; and one of the smartest things he said, I thought, was that climate change is hard to contend with as a problem because it feels like redemption is not available. It feels like you just have to sit and say, "Whoa, we have caused a lot of problems as a species, and there's really not a way to get out of it." Now, I think we're doing a lot better on finding that redemption, because we see every shift that's made on a big scale really does matter. But I think that some of us are still in the space of like, well, I just cannot individually recycle everything, use a paper straw, like, all the things that used to be like the litmus test of whether you care about this planet or not. I think people fairly said, "I can't personally shoulder responsibility for global climate change." That's totally fair. That's why rules like this help, because they shift the burden of you individually caring. You don't have to care about your personal tailpipe emissions. If manufacturers are held to a standard imposed by a government that has a whole department of scientists that figure out what shift in your tailpipe emissions will actually make a difference, okay.  

[00:24:33] And this is what I think is really nice in this rule, you can see that it was a compromise process. You can see that EPA proposed the rule last May of 2023, took in all of this public comments, like 250,000 comments, had a meeting where lots of people spoke with their thoughts, and now the comments about the rule that came out, which is significantly less in terms of the expectations on manufacturers than the original rule; the manufacturers are saying this is a stretch goal, but we can live with it and we're on board. The United Auto Workers, the labor union for auto workers, are saying we're on board. The EPA took our concerns seriously. It came a long way to help protect the workers who build internal combustion engines, and so we're on board. Everyone's being very careful in how they talk about this, who was at the table, and I think that's a sign that it was a really productive and fruitful negotiation. And then people who weren't at the table are big mad. And that happens. There are lots of people in the environmental movement who think that this was a cave to Big Auto, and Big Oil doesn't go far enough. You have ethanol people who are very, very mad that ethanol was not pushed in this process. Kind of made me want to go watch the West Wing Ethanol episode again.  

Sarah [00:25:52] We've been talking about ethanol for so long. I'm ready to move on. I'm just going to be honest, I'm sorry Iowa.  

Beth [00:25:56] Yeah. And the ethanol people are saying that because the EPA did not highlight ethanol as a path forward here, the price of corn could drop, which would cause farmland to drop and a whole parade of horrible(s). But that has been the ethanol industry's game for a long time.  

Sarah [00:26:14] Yes, for so long. You have not presented your solution. All you've done is present 'we could be'. Well, the expiration on 'could' is far past. Sorry. 

Beth [00:26:24]  And let me say, if you know more about this than I do, which is highly possible, and I'm missing something, I would love for you to email me. I care about agriculture very much. My dad still grows and sells corn. The price of corn matters to me. So I get the concern, but I think what I'm hearing in terms of objections to the rule from ethanol is more you should be pushing us and subsidizing us and helping make this happen and you're not, and so we don't like it. And if there's more to it than that, I want to learn that and I will correct myself.  

Sarah [00:26:57] Yeah, I think there's some tension though between it doesn't have to be your individual burden, but the big solution could be a burden on you individually. That's the hard part. That's the bridge to cross. And Helen Petersen wrote a really good thing about individualism. But there was a part of me that's like, yeah, but you have to give people something. You can't just say it's all systems and it's a lie of racist privilege that anything is an individual action. Because there's a reason that Jordan Peterson is appealing to people because he says you still have control over your life. And I think you rub up against that and you can tap that same source of tension when you say they're restricting your freedom. People want to feel agency. And it is both true that our individual actions can't fix it, and also that our individual actions are a part of the solution, or that the solution, like I said, might individually burden us. And we have to be okay with that. And, look, Alexis de Tocqueville calls that tension out a lot. And it was the 1700s. So this is not a new thing we're dealing with, but I think you see it so much with climate change that we have to have big solutions that will affect you as an individual. Because I hear this from Griffin all the time, I feel like this is sort of a narrative inside young climate activists. That they have rightfully called out this idea of like-- you see it with littering and recycling. Well, this was just a corporate lie that said it was up to us. And, yes, there is real history there, especially with recycling, that instead of going after in a regulatory way, individual use plastic, we were sold this lie that we could recycle it. And you see some really big solutions like California where they're like, stop labeling it recyclable when it's not. That's a lie. I'm excited about that regulation. I hope it changes things nationally as often happens in California.  

[00:28:59] There's a lot of work to do around some of the individual choices. And we need big solutions, particularly when it comes to plastics, especially if you want to get at this chemical toxicity undercurrent running right through the middle of my Instagram Reels. But we have to say it's going to change the way we function. We cannot have solutions to all these things we're concerned about, whether climate change is on your list or not, and not be individually affected or burdened. Where was that somewhere that we were talking about gas prices and I said, "Yeah, well, I'm okay paying more. I think it should cost more. It costs a lot to produce gas." It costs a lot to run a car. There was even some interesting things I read about car insurance. We don't pay enough for car insurance in America. And then on the next day I read an article where someone was complaining about rising car insurance costs. So we don't have to come to Jesus if we have real concerns about big problems in health care, in the climate. Because I think the hard part with climate change is, yes, we are addressing some of these big, huge concerns, and often because we're talking about something as big and complex as the climate of our planet, that does not play out always in the way we expected it to. Like we got at some of these particulates in the air, and it warmed up the ocean because the air was cleaner in really, really concerning ways. That's why they think some of that surface temperature has risen so dramatically because it's discouraging. You're like, but we're trying so hard and we're doing so many things and it still keeps getting hotter and the ocean still keeps getting hotter. Well, yeah, we're trying to turn a big ship, and it's not always going to happen the way we expect it to, even with a rule like this one. So we have to just build some of that in. We can't get spooked and abandoned course the second something doesn't play out the way we thought it would or maybe the individual burden is higher than we anticipated.  

Beth [00:30:52] I think it's true that there could be individual burden here; although, if just over half of cars are electric vehicles and you don't want one, you will have just under half to choose from that are not electric. So it's not like all freedom and liberty is being taken away. You can also just buy a used car. This is about new cars. No one's going to prison for driving an old car. Manufacturers are not being shut down. Used car sales aren't ending. So we got to kind of take a breath about what this actually would look like. We also have an electric vehicle. I agree that charging is going to have to get faster. If we want more people driving electric cars, we are going to have to have more charging stations and you are going to have to be able to charge faster. My big concern about this rule, is that if we have a change in administration and we don't have a new administration that will fully implement the bipartisan infrastructure bill and the provisions of the Inflation Reduction Act that are there to help build those charging stations and help with grid resiliency-- which is another thing I worry a lot about right now. I don't want everybody to have an electric car because we don't have a grid that will support that. We need a lot of work to be done. Expensive long term projects. Projects that will get delayed by environmental tradeoffs in building those things.  

[00:32:19] There is no perfect solution to any of this. So I am of the mind that we shouldn't be purist about it, because we are going to consume resources and emit pollutants as a species pretty much always. The question is, what's the smart way to get better at it all the time? And I think we have a plan for that. But this regulation will hurt a lot more if those pieces of legislation don't get implemented. If all the money that was put together to build charging stations doesn't get spent on charging stations, if all the money that is there to update our grids isn't used that way, that's a big problem. If you are thinking to yourself, why would they do this right before an election? I get it. They're doing it now because administrative agency done in the last 60 days of a legislative term can be undone by a new Congress really easily. So they're trying to get this done in time where it can't just be waved away if the administration changes or if Congress changes dramatically. That still, preserving this rule, is not enough to make all the things happen that need to happen for us to get to this new future in a way that won't cause as much individual burden as I think some people fear.  

Sarah [00:33:36] Well, what I'm hopeful is that the industry's in, there changing things. Even if some of the sales have softened, to me, the industry is already turning that cruise ship. Like, they're already on their way. And so I hope the people at Ford and the UAW are smart enough to use their massive lobbying power and influence to say, we need this infrastructure for the industry. I don't care how you feel about climate change. We need these pieces to fall in place. And I would be doing that if I was the CEO of Ford. I would be paying attention to the pieces that I needed to make this dramatic change in our market share take off and be a success. Let's hope that that's happening, because I think that's have to be a piece of it.  

Beth [00:34:21] I hope so too. And, look, there are design and marketing choices that are going to have to be figured out. Ford in particular, they made that F-150 lightning, the electric version, it sold 24,000 units last year, not the 150,000 they projected. A lot of electric vehicle demand is softening right now. Hybrid sales are up, but electric vehicle demand is softening. And that's going to take a bunch of creative thinking. Any kind of innovation, though, takes a lot of creative thinking. It has a bunch of risk. It has a bunch of trade offs. If we can do this, it looks like a way to really increase the number of cars we can export from the United States. The rest of the world is pretty in on anything that reduces greenhouse gas emissions. So converting our car industry to more hybrid and electric is a win for people who work in that industry long term, I think. And I think that's where all this could go. We could have less pollution, better vehicles, improve our economy, improve our grid resiliency, which we need for other things-- not just cars. I think there's a lot of good on the other side of this. I think it's a hard road there. I'm kind of with the manufacturers. This is a stretch, but it's a stretch that I'm on board for. In conclusion, I'm very glad that I read the rule instead of relying on the headlines, because I really thought this was going to be a lot more overreach than it turned out to be. And I think that a lot of good people got together to do problem solving around this rule. And that's exactly what I want to see from the government.  

[00:35:54] Music Interlude.  

[00:36:06] Sarah, we always end our show talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics. We wrote this book I Think You're Wrong (But I'm listening), and part of what we say in the book is our relationships have to be more than politics. And so we want our personal relationship to be more than politics. And we want to give you, when you're sharing our show with people in your lives, something else to talk about with them. Should always end Outside of Politics, so here we are. And today we are going to end in a very personal and frustrating way. You told me when we sat down to record that your son has head lice and you are dealing with that, which is no fun.  

Sarah [00:36:39] Yeah, it's not what's on our minds, it's what's on our heads today. Okay, I've had a long journey with head lice. This is our third round, I think. Yeah. And it's so interesting because it's like I can track my approach to parenting through our many rounds of head lice. Our first battle with head lice was when Griffin was in kindergarten, there was an outbreak. I took a very intense approach and I comb through all our hair and I did the Cetaphil treatment. Are you familiar with the Cetaphil treatment? Have you never had head lice in your family?  

Beth [00:37:15] Don't say it out loud. It makes me nervous to say it out loud. I'm not familiar with the treatment.  

Sarah [00:37:19] That's crazy to me. Well, you coat your head in Cetaphil, you blow dry the Cetaphil in. It coats the louse as the case may be, and then you sleep with it in and then you do it again in a week. I just remember spending so much time making sure I got out every single piece. The key, which I learned then, is a very special comb called the LiceMeister, because you have the lice and then you have the nits. And a lot of schools will not allow your child back if you have a nit. Now, this is bad policy. The American Academy of Pediatrics says children should not be sent home for lice because they are harmless. They're annoying and they're itchy, but they're harmless. And so children should not miss school for that. But at the time, you had to be nit- free. And I was the only parent who sent the child back who was allowed to stay because I was such a maniac with this big old light, and I made him sit still, and I would just go hair by hair by hair. I felt like it was like a multi-day process. But then we did not have lice again until last year when there was an outbreak at the school musical and my children got it. They weren't even in the damn musical, but whatever. And now I've gotten better and faster at it. So I get the comb, I can get everything out because I know exactly what I'm looking for. So that was like round two, but I still did the Cetaphil treatment, okay? Then my friend, Elizabeth Passarella, wrote a really good piece for the New York Times (we will link it in the show notes) where she said that apparently the Cetaphil treatment came about because of this sort of crunchy, modern trend of being concerned about chemicals and kids.  

[00:38:59] I didn't even realize that that's how I'd gotten swept in. I had just heard that it didn't work anymore. That medicated shampoos we used as kids, the louse had sort of adapted to it. But she says no, that there's still really good science that the treatment works. So this time it was almost like a nonevent. Felix woke up, he itches his head, I went, uh-uh, got out my LiceMeister, combed every single piece out of his head before I sent him to school. Didn't take very long, his hairs not very long. And then got the medicated shampoo. This was a new addition to our treatment. So now I don't have to do this whole Cetaphil thing, which takes forever. It takes a long time to comb Cetaphil on your hair and then blow dry it. I got the medicated shampoos because Elizabeth Passarella told me to, and I was like, okay, I believe you. I'm going to do it. Got the medicated shampoos, he took a shower. We'll do it again in seven days. So it's gone from this very overwhelming situation to now almost like a nonevent because all the stuff people tell you about, like, toss everything out, wash everything, that's not true. The lice can't live basically anywhere but your head. You do need to make sure and check everybody's head in your house. But I've kind of evolved into this lice expert which is not who I want it to be in the world, but here we are.  

Beth [00:40:13] Parenting is like that. There are a lot of things you did not want to see or know or smell or touch or experience, and then you find yourself being really well-versed in those things. I think you've just provided some very valuable information.  

Sarah [00:40:27] Yeah. So, listen, I'm here for people. I have learned all these lessons the hard way. And I really do think lice tends to be less of an emotional reaction because I think that leads to some bad things like kicking kids out of school, or like people shaving their kids head, which is also silly. Or even these combing treatments where you're paying like several hundreds of dollars for people to come comb your kid's hair. Now, if I had long haired kids, maybe I would be persuadable. But if you have the right comb-- now, they're not all as good as the LiceMeister, so you have to make sure you get a comb that will pull out the hair if it catches a nit, not just identify it to you. But once you've seen them and you know what you're looking for, it can really turn down the drama and be sort of a nonevent. I was annoyed, but I wasn't devastated. You know what I mean? I was like, ugh, but we've already dealt with it. It's like we're already moving on.  

Beth [00:41:18] That's good. I'm so glad. I hope that whatever is an annoyance in your life this week, you similarly have a way to quickly deal with it and move on. We are so appreciative of you spending time with us always. We hope this episode was helpful. Please share it. If you are finding people saying that the EPA has just banned all cars except electric vehicles, I think this would just be a nice way to get in front of people to say, let's go a little deeper. And if you would like to learn more about how we tend to handle conversations like that, we would love for you to pick up one of our books, I Think You're Wrong, (But I'm Listening) or Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything). Both of them have, we hope, very practical ways to improve conversations with people in your lives. We'll be back with you next Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.  

[00:42:01] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.   

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