The State of the Union is Feisty

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Joe Biden’s State of the Union Address

  • Outside of Politics: Spring Cleaning with House Peace

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news. 

[00:00:14] Music Interlude  

Sarah [00:00:29] Thank you so much for being with us today. On today's show, we're going to be discussing the State of the Union. The hot takes, the speech itself, the policy implications. And, of course, we'll be discussing Senator Katie Brett's interesting-- I'm going to go with interesting.  

Beth [00:00:47] I like it.  

Sarah [00:00:48] Response. Outside of Politics, we are going to talk about spring cleaning and my recent collaboration with House Peace.  

Beth [00:00:55] Before we begin, we're so excited! This Thursday, we'll be hosting our first Spicy Live of 2024 for our premium members every few months. For our premium crowd, we have an Ask Us Anything type event. What you need to know is compared to the buttoned up way that we try to make this podcast, these are chaos. The whole team is there. The chat is busy and enjoyable.  

Sarah [00:01:21] Busy.  

Beth [00:01:22] And sometimes very insightful and often hilarious.  

Sarah [00:01:25] Yeah, work gets done in the chat too, people be solving each other's problems over there in the chat.  

Beth [00:01:31] One hundred percent. So we would love to see you there. It is this Thursday, March 14th. Even if you can't join us live, the recording will be there for you to enjoy in perpetuity. I'm told that some people watch them several times because of the chaos, and they need to catch everything that goes down in the chat and elsewhere.  

Sarah [00:01:48] No they don't. I do not need that DVD commentary. Thank you so much.  

Beth [00:01:53] So if you are a premium member through Apple Podcasts subscriptions rather than Patreon, just make sure that we have your email address so we can get you the login information. Apple does not share that information with us. So we've had to kind of set up our own system for that. You can just email Hello@pantsuitpolitics.com, and we will get you all hooked up. We are so, so grateful for our premium members, and this is one of the ways that we try to share it.  

Sarah [00:02:18] Yes. And we have two new executive producers, Megan Hart and Vicky Jackman. The executive producers are so special to us. We have an incredibly close relationship for executive producers, as I hosted them at my home for dinner. But everybody who supports the show makes our work here on the main feed possible. Yes, we create a lot of content on the premium channels. Absolutely. But we couldn't do what we do here twice a week on the free feed without our premium support. It adds stability, consistency and independence to our podcast. I think a lot about podcasts at the beginning of our journey who I was so jealous of, who were at BuzzFeed or NPR, and so many of those podcasts are gone. Even ones still today you'll hear they're being closed down, even though they're popular and people still listen because it's independent podcast with independent support that doesn't have to rise and fall with advertising dollars as we spoke about last week, that really have long term staying power. And that's what you give us when you support our show. All right, next up, we're going to talk about the State of the Union. Beth, I thought we could start with the high level takes. You didn't watch it till later. And it was really interesting, you were like our focus group. You were like, okay, this is what I perceive about the State of the Union based on the hot takes.  

Beth [00:03:51] Yeah, I got the hot takes first, which I never do. And from the hot takes, I learned that the president was feisty, he was fiery. He was firing on all cylinders.  

Sarah [00:04:00] Feisty. That's the word we all agreed on. Yes. I mean, it was almost funny how many headlines had feisty in them.  

Beth [00:04:08] It was funny. I learned that Katie Britt was creepy / weird. Those were the two words that came across. And so I read all of that commentary. Then I read the transcript of the actual speech, and then I watched it last in my process.  

Sarah [00:04:23] Where did you watch Saturday Night Live in your process?  

Beth [00:04:26] I watched it after I had watched the actual speech and the full Katie Britt response.  

Sarah [00:04:32] Okay, because I feel like Saturday Night Live is a very important component of the hot take. I mean, look, he came out immediately, stood up on the podium and said:  

President Biden [00:04:40] Good evening. If I were smart, I'd go home now.  

Sarah [00:04:45] And Nicholas and I burst into hysterical laughter and I thought, it doesn't matter what happens next because the people who give the hot takes are going to watch at least the first 5 to 10 minutes. And even if you're a journalist who watches the whole thing-- I watched the whole thing that night. You know what I kept thinking about? That joke. That's what I used to do when I knocked on doors. I walked away every time I knocked on the door and I said the same joke. But I said a little joke because it just leaves people on a happy note. And a lot of people don't hang for the whole thing, so I thought it was so brilliant to come in there and give this lively acknowledge-- because it was so many layers. It was lively, it was energetic, it was like this lightness immediately, and also it acknowledged, like, I know y'all aren't happy with me. I know y'all think I'm too old. If I was smart, I'd take the applause and go home. I just cannot say enough about that joke.  

Beth [00:05:42] I thought the most important moment happened even before the joke on his way in the door. One of the first things that came to me with the hot takes was the video of him reacting to Marjorie Taylor Green's outfit. The way that President Biden reacted to Representative Greene was perfect. It couldn't have been scripted any better. The camera operators captured all of it beautifully. And he seemed so amused by her, like it was a normal way to react to something like that. There was no condescension in his reaction. There was no disdain in it. It was like, wow, she made a choice coming here tonight. But I can roll with choices. I just thought it was like a really beautiful example for all of us on how to handle people like Marjorie Taylor Greene walking around among us. You still belong here, but that is a choice and I'm going to react to you still with kindness, and also register my surprise and amusement. I thought it was great.  

Sarah [00:06:49] Yeah, I do think the outfits kind of got absorbed into the high level take. I thought Representative Troy Nehls looked ridiculous. And I just thought, these are not serious people. And that's what's rising up. Like, you see her, you see him and you think, really? You're not behaving seriously. And I thought in particular, bringing attention to how she looked in the speech, by like holding up-- there was a lot buttons, actually. It wasn't just her. There were so many buttons and stickers. And I was like, when did we decide to do this? That everybody was going to look like they were at a convention. But there's so many buttons and stuff. But he took one of her buttons and used it at a moment in his speech we'll talk about in a minute. But I just thought that was kind of smart because it's like, well, I'll take you seriously but I'm going to let the camera pan to you and show that you really don't deserve to be taken seriously.  

Beth [00:07:37] But it's best when people tell on themselves. And he allowed that to happen and he didn't need to do anything else. It was perfect.  

Sarah [00:07:45] Yeah. And I think that the SNL take kind of showed that. Like, for better or for worse we saw this with Tina Fey and Sarah Palin. When people think Sarah Palin said, "I can see Russia from my house." Well, she didn't, but people think she did. That Saturday Night Live gets absorbed into what actually happened is that it becomes a part of your memory of the event. And so I thought the fact that they kind of took the feisty takes, he came out, he was fighting, he was great and then spent most of the time criticizing Senator Katie Britt from Alabama and her Republican response.  

Beth [00:08:23] Which Scarlett Johansson could not have handled any more perfectly than she did. That was incredible. Okay, I got the hot take that she was creepy, and everything I saw was just like a snippet of her saying enough is enough angrily in her kitchen. That's what came to me first. When I watch the entirety of the speech, the thing that I was most struck by was the complete absence of any positive agenda. The single policy proposal that I heard in the speech was when she said that the Republican Party supports nationwide access to IVF, which was really something given that Republicans are blocking that legislation from coming to the floor for a vote in Congress. So the one actual proposal was presented in a really misleading way, which was a theme of this speech, because the extremely detailed, violent story about sex trafficking included in the speech turned out to also have been presented in a very misleading way.  

Sarah [00:09:45] That's when I stopped listening. I watched her for a minute there because I am sort of interested in her-- not really. I feel like we need a term for the staff equivalent of a nepo baby, because that's what she is. She's Richard Shelby, the long term senior senator from Alabama who recently retired chief of staff. So she's basically gifted this seat that obviously a Democrat doesn't have a chance in hell of winning now. I think she had a little bit of competition in the primary, but not much. But this is what happens, right? You were born on 30, thought you hit a triple and were up for this response and you were not friend. Now, look, I don't care how competitive your race was that you won and how ambitious you are, if someone says, "Do you want to do the response to save the union? You should say no." It's a tough gig, and I acknowledge that. But she was trying to do this very weird thing which Saturday Night Live captured, which is be the mom at the table and also be really dark and really negative and really scary at parts. The sex trafficking story, like it been, I don't know, 60 to 70% in the speech, but it was just really early. It's just really early because the early parts of the speech, which we're about to talk about with Joe Biden is where you can really see the priorities. And so now we know the playbook for the Republican Party, which is scare the shit out of everybody about the border. That's what they got. So in case you were wondering, that's it.  

Beth [00:11:13] And try to do that while recapturing some of the demographics that are naturally put off by former President Trump. I mean, her entire selection and the choice to put her in the kitchen, and the choice to choose an outfit that was designed to highlight the cross around her neck, all of the staging here speaks to suburban women like us as though we are stupid.  

Sarah [00:11:41] Yeah.  

Beth [00:11:41] As though just the presentation will be enough to overcome the fact that the former president has now been found by a jury to have sexually assaulted someone. And so there was so much projection in the actual text of the speech, but the optics were clearly most important to the people who arranged it. And I just think that you have to wonder who's sitting at the tables where these decisions are being made. No one said, hey, let's just think for a second about putting a United States senator and her kitchen to do this. Is that really what we want to say as a party about how we view women this year? But apparently it was.  

Sarah [00:12:26] No, because I know that this is at times a fair criticism of the Democratic Party. But they're not the only ones led by elites that have disdain for some segments of the American population. I just want to put that out there.  

Beth [00:12:39] I think that's it. The only response to the state of the Union that I thought was good was Mitt Romney's going back to his office and taking two minutes to make a video of himself. He did this last year, too. That makes sense because it's an actual response. He actually went and listened to the speech and then just told you what he thought about it briefly, and he opened with his agreement with the president. And then he concluded with his disagreement with the president. And he has a bunch. But it was fine because it felt genuine and authentic and spontaneous, and there was energy about it. And he looks like a person who's there to work. He was in a suit. He went to the speech, he went back to his office and recorded this. I think that should be the playbook going forward. This staged attempt to counter-program has failed every single time that we've ever talked about it. So I think they just need to blow it up and try something different.  

Sarah [00:13:34] Yeah. Because I think the other high level take about this speech is that it was highly political. It was basically a campaign speech. It wasn't sort of as serious as past State of the Unions. And there's a part of me that's like, yes, and maybe that's just an acknowledgment that this has changed. We sort of talked about that in our preview. This isn't what it used to be. So let's just own that and move on. He's got this pulpit to do his speech. Fine. And I feel like the response needs to be an acknowledgment too, this is not what this is anymore. So have something else in mind that can meet the moment. Because if you're going to scream back, liar, and you're not going to be serious in the audience, then you have to acknowledge that that's going to have repercussions in the speech as well. And the speech is going to become more political. I felt like naming Rush Limbaugh as the shining example of American citizenship during the State of the Union really pushed us over the edge, too. So I just think that ship has sailed.  

Beth [00:14:32] You have to pretend that the last 15 years didn't happen to say that this was a shockingly political speech.  

Sarah [00:14:39] Yeah.  

Beth [00:14:39]  I mean, I don't like it. I don't like any of it. I wish the state of the Union were a written report to Congress. I'm not in for any of this, but it is really silly to act like this was surprising in any way. It wasn't that different than last year. The overall vibe, the text of the speech itself, what he covered, it wasn't that different from last year.  

Sarah [00:15:01] What was different from last year is that many more people watched, which I'm sure is just tearing our former president apart. Thirty to point two million people turned in live to watch the State of the Union, up 18% from last year's audience of 27.3 million. I found that encouraging.  

Beth [00:15:19] It might not be the most politically astute maneuver to prepare the American public for a president who you say is practically comatose. Republicans set these expectations so low, but people tuned in because they wanted to see if the reality comported with what they were being told about this man, and then he was able to easily clear the bar by looking like he had some energy.  

Sarah [00:15:47] Yeah. So let's talk about the actual speech. And the same way that you're going to hear the priorities from the Republican response, you heard the Biden, probably the campaign priorities, early in the speech. He had the soaring rhetoric that we are not in an ordinary moment. And then he talked about Ukraine and defending democracy around the globe. He talked about January 6th and defending democracy here at home. And then he really focused on reproductive rights and defending the right to choose for women all across the country. Kate Cox from Texas, the woman who had to leave the state of Texas to receive medical care for unwanted pregnancy was in the audience. And it seems like those three things are going to be the focus of the campaign, because they were certainly the focus of the speech in the beginning where most people are tuning in.  

Beth [00:16:37] I really respected that he led with Ukraine, because I think it would have been easier to lead with the economy. He has all of the data to open with the economy, and I think it reflects two things that are important. Number one, an awareness that talking about the economy is still complex because not everyone is feeling those rip roaring numbers yet. And, secondly, a true commitment to America's leadership in the world. And I think he is focused on cementing kind of a Biden doctrine, that he has this approach to foreign policy that does not involve military personnel directly operating in theaters around the world, but that does involve a very muscular approach to leadership and to indirectly influencing world events. And so I respected that choice a lot. I liked the beginning and the end of his speech very much.  

Sarah [00:17:30] Yeah, I thought it was really good that he said, like, look, we don't have soldiers. We're not asking you for soldiers to send to Ukraine. Don't forget that. That time is over. I was one of the people really opposed to that type of warm policy the entire time. So I thought that part was really good and really focusing on, like, Vladimir Putin will not stop. I did note that Mike Johnson was not in during that section of the speech. He kind of wanted to ask him some questions about. But really laying out the risk, I thought having Sweden's minister there as a guest was really great, and linking it together with January 6th and saying like, do you see that this isn't just about us caring about what's going on around the world? We have our own problems. One of my favorite lines is when he said:  

President Biden [00:18:11] Here's the simple truth you can't love your country only when you win.  

Sarah [00:18:19] It just hit me so hard, I thought, yes, that's it. That's exactly it. You only love it here when you can control it. And I don't even really think love is the right verb there, right? You just want power and control. This isn't about building anything. This isn't about fixing anything. This is about power and control in the same way that it's about power and control for Vladimir Putin. And particularly relevant as his predecessor (as such is the language he used the whole time) was meeting Viktor freakin Orban over the weekend.  

Beth [00:18:51] It was a tough time for Mike Johnson, not only because he is inexperienced and woefully unprepared for the job that he is in now, but also because he was a principal architect of a brief to the United States Supreme Court asking the Supreme Court to interfere in the 2020 election, asking the Supreme Court to declare that some states Electoral College votes should not be certified. And so sitting behind the president as he's thundering away and linking that effort to Putin’s invasion of a sovereign democratic nation, had to be tough to figure out what to do with your face. And he struggled.  

Sarah [00:19:35] It seems like the most minor of consequences he could suffer through was what to do was his stinking face. So he really focused on those top three priorities. And then he pivoted to say that classic argument, are you better now than you were four years ago? And he sort of talked about-- do we all remember, because I do think there's some amnesia here. Do we remember what was going on four years ago? And because the anniversary of the pandemic is this week, we're going to have a conversation about that on Friday, as we talked to one of the members of the Covid crisis team that wrote the lessons from the Cold War. I was really, really struck and really, really loved how clearly he said: 

President Biden [00:20:15] A president, my predecessor, failed the most basic presidential duty that he owes to American people: the duty to care.  

Beth [00:20:23] When Republicans criticize lines like that as overly political or divisive or vitriolic, I think that is another moment of telling on yourselves. Especially as he rattled through the Covid statistics and the economic statistics and the Republican tax cut and what that added to the debt and deficit and the overall economic effect it had, it is revealing that Republicans feel attacked when you neutrally state the facts of what has unfolded. When you just describe the actual conduct and its effects and the policy positions that are on the agenda, and Republicans say you're being so divisive and vitriolic, it's like, well, there's a little rubber and glue happening here.  

Sarah [00:21:14] Yeah. What do you want us to do? Lie? You want us to just lie how many people died? Do you want us to lie? Again, we're talking about this on Friday, but the lessons from the Covid were call President Trump and call morbidity. That's the language they use. Basically, more people died because he just walked away. And I think the more we can say that, and the more President Biden can say that, the better, because that is the reality. And I think not only pointing out the reality of four years ago, but really rolling through his list of accomplishments, particularly around the infrastructure bill. I love the new campaign ad where they show Donald Trump in front of all these infrastructure press conferences, and then Joe Biden's like, I got it done. I did what he kept saying he was going to do. I mean, this is a study in contrast. We have plenty of evidence with these two men. That is the one benefit of coming back and doing this again. We're not talking about ephemeral ideas. We have actual historical events to point to, and so I really liked that. That was the next portion of the speech. This is where he failed and this is where I succeeded.  

Beth [00:22:16] And it's again one of those things that speaks for itself when you say, "I noticed that you didn't vote for it and you're still at the ribbon cutting for the projects that it supports."  

Sarah [00:22:27]  I love that part.  

Beth [00:22:28] Because we don't substantively really disagree about this. Everyone knows it's important. You vote against it for political reasons. And saying so is just stating the facts. Again, it's not a characterization, it's just the fact of the matter. And I say this as a person as he gets deeper into the laundry list of things he wants to pass next. I disagree with a lot of those ideas. I would not vote for the PRO Act. I mean, there are a number of things that he wants to do still that I don't think are great ideas, but that's why I think the beginning and end are most important. On the priority issues, I think he is really where the vast majority of Americans are, and the vast majority of Republicans sitting in that room are. They just are afraid to say so.  

Sarah [00:23:17] Yeah, that's what I really like about this sort of new version of the State of the Union. Because for better or for worse, there aren't a lot of opportunities for people to just sit in the same room and kind of debate. They don't want to really do it in Congress anymore. You're not going to do it on the Monday morning shows. Everybody kind of does their talking points on 24 hour cable news or the Sunday morning political shows, and they don't really get into it. And so I just like him saying like, this is what you said you wanted. We gave it to you on immigration and you walked away. And they're booing and they sound ridiculous. I'm not saying it's an equal debate and they have equal opportunity to make their points, but there is something about that energy of, like, we're in the room together and I'm looking you in the face and I'm telling you this is what you did. You said you wanted this deal and you walked away from it because he told you to. Because he wants us all to fight about immigration for the next several months. It's just deeply satisfying to me. I can't even explain it.  

Beth [00:24:12] Well, and the networks have so adjusted to this approach that they have, in some ways, created opportunities for members to have moments. I thought one of the more significant moments of the evening is when he was talking about the bipartisan immigration bill and what it would do, and they catch James Lankford, very, very conservative senator from Oklahoma, who helped negotiate this mouthing, "It's true."  

Sarah [00:24:38] It's true.  

Beth [00:24:39] It's true. I mean, that speaks volumes. It says so much more then Marjorie Taylor Greene's outfit. For the person who put in the work and really believes this is the right path forward and is being blocked from having that work become law by his own party to indicate quietly his agreement with what the president is saying.  

Sarah [00:25:02] And look, I think this takes us to the moment with Lincoln Riley. For those of you who have not been following this closely, Lincoln Riley was a 22-year-old Augusta University nursing student, and she was killed last month while on her morning run. Authorities have arrested a Venezuelan man who had entered the U.S. illegally on murder and assault charges. I heard several law enforcement officials describe it as a crime of opportunity, and the far right has glommed on to this event. They were all wearing buttons with her name. That is what Marjorie Taylor Greene handed to the president. They were screaming, "Say her name, say her name." Again, you are not serious people. You do not use the tragic death of a woman like this to advocate for what? That's the thing. It's like it's one thing to say you're advocating for very specific gun control measures and you're talking about a school shooting. I'm not saying that Democrats never use tragic events to advocate for policy change, but you're not advocating for anything except for what? Shut the border down, which isn't even a thing. It's just a thing you say. It's not a thing we can actually do based on the geography of our country. And so it's so gross. I still think about that poor Democratic staffer who was killed, who they spun everybody up into conspiracies until his poor family had to sue Fox News. I just think it's so gross. And the way they were particularly doing it at the State of the Union with all the buttons, it is so off putting to me.  

Beth [00:26:39] I have long hated when members of Congress use activist tactics. Because the tactics of activism are for people who do not have power to express a message to people who do have power. And every person in that room has significant power to make change, to put a bill on the floor. If you think that something happened in connection with this woman's murder that necessitates action, and you don't think that you currently have that action in the bipartisan immigration reform bill that's out there, then put a bill on the floor. Turning it into a moment to emphasize violence, to spin up fear of other people who cross into the country without any proposed action attached to it other than saying that President Biden could fix this if he wanted to, that's the insinuation here. He wants this. Of course, he doesn't want it. And I like that he went head on at it and did say her name. And I even liked-- and this is controversial. I even liked that he said it the way Marjorie Taylor Greene would say it. There are a lot of people who are upset that he said she was killed by an illegal immigrant because the preferred terminology is undocumented. People believe that upholds folks dignity more. And I don't disagree. I try to be very careful in the way that I talk about people coming into our country, because they are people coming into our country. What President Biden does uniquely well as a politician is connect with people, though. And when you want to connect with someone, you do have to meet them on their terms. And I felt like that's what he was trying to do.  

[00:28:26] Yes, I think this is important too. It is tragic that this young woman was murdered. Her family's here. I want to tell them I've lost a child. It's the worst pain you can possibly know. I think that's a beautiful and human and important thing. And we should not trip over ourselves in terms of the language to establish that beautiful, important moment. And I think the amount of ink that has been spilled about this since the speech is absurd and paints a very bad portrait around Democratic elites. It gives Republicans so much fuel, so much fuel when you just focus on he messed up by saying illegal instead of undocumented. A lot of people say illegal immigration, including a lot of immigrants. I just think that that really detracts from his willingness to say, I see problems here too. What I wish he would follow up with is people coming into the country are people. And while studies show that people who come in through our southern border are actually less likely to commit crimes than the general population, it does happen. And it is part of what we need to figure out in bringing more order and dignity to our southern border. And I want to do that through this bill that conservatives negotiated. I think he made that pivot, but I wish there was the piece of saying to the United States of America, we don't need to be afraid of these people because they are people. But because they are people, yes, some of them will commit crime and that is hard. And we are working on it.  

Sarah [00:30:01] Well, some people just live a life afraid of all people. They're just afraid. And they're easy, easy prey for the Republican Party right now. I actually was very happy with the Democratic elite response. All I read was Nancy Pelosi and Representative John Paul being like, it doesn't matter, that wasn't the point. He used the wrong word. Can we move on? I was like, oh my God, have we evolved?  I'm so excited that this was the response. I feel like the coverage was because they were just so desperate for any sort of verbal flub. They were like, well, there it is. I guess we better write that one so we appear neutral. Here we go.  

Beth [00:30:32] It's, again, I think like the Twitter class, the Democratic Party is in a different place than the people who actually have power. But I really applaud the people who actually have power leading on that. It would have been easy for them to slam him and make that a whole thing. And it's leadership. Attention, Republicans, you can lead your base. You can look at your activist class and say, no, we're not going to make this an issue. We're not going to do this. We're not going to skewer our own person over this. We are not going to take this thing that we fundamentally agree on and tease it out to just bring chaos and division into the party. I wish more people would do that.  

Sarah [00:31:11] I think that probably leads to the next thing we want to talk about, which is his position on Israel and Gaza in that section of the speech. So we'll talk about that up next. So there's been lots of reporting leading up to the state of the Union that President Biden is increasingly frustrated with Benjamin Netanyahu and the disregard for the enormous amount of suffering and huge loss of civilian life inside the Gaza Strip. He spoke to that in the speech, said he wanted an extended ceasefire.  

President Biden [00:31:56] I've been working nonstop to establish an immediate ceasefire that would last for six weeks to get all the prisoners released, all the hostages released. To get the hostages home and ease the intolerable humanitarian crisis.  

Sarah [00:32:11] Then, of course, he had a hot mic moment. Who doesn't love a Joe Biden hot mic moment? He's talking to Senator Michael Bennet from Colorado and said that he told BB they're going to have to have to come to Jesus, which is a term I use. So I had warm fuzzies when he said that, that we cannot continue to support him. And then, of course, he followed that up with an interview over the weekend where he said that Benjamin Netanyahu's war strategy was harming Israel. And then President Biden described a red line when it came to the military invasion of Rafah, which is down in southern Gaza. Now, of course, Netanyahu has responded. He says his red line is ending Hamas and that they can't do that if they don't go into Rafah. But I thought it was interesting that he used this moment. And I think it sort of speaks to this leadership conflict inside the Democratic Party with the activist class. I thought about our conversation surrounding Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez when I was reading that where she began crying during that section of the speech and makes me cry. And Nancy was comforting her. And I thought, man, these people are in it. They are trying, they are listening. And also they have to understand that they're not activists and that there are difficult choices on the board and only difficult choices on the board. And it seems like President Biden is deep in that right now.  

Beth [00:33:36] And I think has been from the beginning. Yes, absolutely. I read this is greater transparency around those conversations that have been happening since the beginning. But the first time we talked about President Biden's support for Israel, we talked about how the reporting was that behind the scenes he was saying, do not repeat America's post 9/11 mistakes. We made mistakes, and they were extremely consequential. And I have to imagine, he said, and we are protected in so many ways by an ocean that you don't have. And we are a giant country and Israel is not. And so when President Biden says you make your situation more dangerous by overreacting, that is even truer for a country like Israel that is surrounded by nations that wish it harm and by terrorist organizations. I can also understand, and I think President Biden has tried to have grace for this as well, that being surrounded and being a small state makes you more prone to overreact, makes you feel that fear more intensely than we felt it here in America, where we were separated from the threat by an ocean. I feel like I have seen him from the beginning, though, navigating this tension between the recognition that something completely unacceptable happened on October 7th. That Hamas's rule of Gaza has been unacceptable to Israel and crisis inducing for Palestinians living in Gaza. And something has to change there. And trying from the beginning to say, we support you. And part of our support is counseling restraint and counseling care for what happens after. And so I don't read this as Biden changing his mind as much as being more transparent about that balance that we've been trying to strike from the beginning.  

Sarah [00:35:35] Well, I think his counseling was rejected. So he said, okay, if you're not going to take it in private, then I will make it public and I will increase the pressure that way. And I think the situation on the ground is escalating in ways that are truly, truly unacceptable to basically everyone. You see the European Union working on a maritime corridor for aid coming from Cyprus. The United States is now going to build a temporary port of Gaza to accept additional shipments of humanitarian aid. And you have this escalation and the criticism coming from the Biden administration. And, again, I don't think you can ignore the pressure that has built coming from activists. Absolutely that's part of this. Even at the Oscars this weekend started late because activists shut down the highways that at every point can say, like, you will not ignore this humanitarian crisis, you will not ignore this suffering. And that's a part of this is all an ecosystem of pressure and consequences and political strategy and international diplomacy. Because just a big, big universe of constituencies and priorities that I think is continuing to respond to each other and build off each other, and the fact that Benjamin Netanyahu cannot see that he is being left behind in all of this, I want to say it shocks me, but it really doesn't because I don't think he cares. I think he cares only about himself and his hold on power. But it's becoming untenable, completely and totally untenable for, I think, so many players at the table.  

Beth [00:37:30] I have two struggles that I want to try to name with care for everyone involved. I agree the situation is untenable. It is a failure in so many respects. People are starving, that so many civilians have been killed. It's awful. I think some of the pressure to do something could lead us to do things that are ineffective and dangerous. I am worried about building this temporary pier. I'm worried about the activity of the Huthis. I am worried about the safety of the people who will build the pier. I'm worried about the effectiveness of the pier. The shallow waters off of Gaza have prevented it from becoming a place of ports. Usually, if you are right on the sea, you have a lot of economic opportunity that's never come to Gaza for reasons. And so this is hard. It will take at least 60 days. An awful lot of people are going to starve in the next 60 days. It's not the only thing they're trying to do. But this is not an easy or guaranteed way to bring assistance, and it is not a low risk way to bring assistance. And so I worry sometimes that the demands to do something lead us to do things that we wouldn't do otherwise for good reason. The second thing that I just struggle with is that the historic backdrop here means that in a lot of activist pressure, there is a link to anti-Semitism. Now, I am not saying that it is exclusive to care about the hostages and the people of Gaza. I think that's where the vast majority of the global population is. I think the vast majority of people care both about Jewish people as a whole, the hostages in specific, as well as the Palestinian civilians who are suffering in Gaza. And also there is so much history here, and there is such a tinderbox. And there have been examples of outright anti-Semitism in some of the activism. And so I don't want to leave that behind as our attention is more and more captured by this suffering. That is unacceptable. I agree. I just think both things exist and have existed since October 7th and will continue to exist, and they are really difficult to balance even linguistically.  

Sarah [00:40:05] Yeah. And in a situation like this, you only have bad choices. That's it. That's the only thing available. Terrible choices that bring enormous risk to everyone involved. I don't think there's another road. Port, airdrop, period. Negotiating table. The only thing happening right now in Gaza, and Ukraine, in Haiti are terrible, dangerous choices for everyone involved. Period. That's it. And my frustration with the activist class is that sometimes they pretend otherwise. Now, I still believe that the people making the decisions understand that fundamentally. And so while I think they feel pressure, I think the pressure from the activist class is impossible to separate from the pressure of the suffering on the ground that they probably understand better than almost anybody else.  

Beth [00:40:59] A hundred percent.  

Sarah [00:40:59] And so I just think it's terrible. And also, why shouldn't we have some skin in the game when the suffering at a place in the world is this high? To think that we could help, or even act at all without risk to ourselves, yI just don't think it's available to us. And so I think moving forward, that's what we all have to know is exactly what you say. Like, no, whatever we do will probably involve risk and danger to us as well. As it should. And so I am encouraged by these efforts. I'm encouraged that he used the words two state solution in the State of the Union address.  

President Biden [00:41:44] As we look to the future, the only real solution to the situation is a two state solution over time.  

Sarah [00:41:52] Because a vision of the future, a strategy to get their people with power exhibiting leadership within this situation and saying this is what has to come next, to me is the most hopeful act. It's still full of risk. It's still full of danger. But I think that's the most concerning thing in a lot of spots in the world. I'm not sure I agree with the Pope's statement about Ukraine over the weekend, but I understand wanting to say we need a goal in mind. We need somewhere to aim towards. We need a vision of a future that is not a stalemate of human suffering, which is what a lot of places in the world feel like right now.  

Beth [00:42:34] I think that's right. And I think on the two state solution front, this again draws on lessons that America has learned in awful ways. We know that occupation is dangerous, expensive and fruitless. We know that because we've tried it. So for Israel's strategy to be occupation of Gaza to any degree, we know that it doesn't work. We know that will not make Israel safer. It will probably make it less safe. And so finding a path forward to a stable government in Gaza is critical for everyone. And if you look to Haiti and you see the glide path that Gaza could be on to that form of lawlessness, it's already happening around the aid trucks. You not only have desperate civilians crowding in towards those trucks in dangerous ways, but you have gangs that are organizing, because that's what happens when there is lawlessness. And Haiti is just such a direct example of how things go from bad to worse so fast. And the worse, it is not confined to that state. The worse entails communicable disease. It entails loss of life. It entails refugees fleeing. There is no way to write off one piece of our globe. Even if everybody thought that was truly a moral choice, which I don't think it is. But even if you said callously, we are going to write this section of the globe off, it will still spread. And so I think that it's absolutely correct. That getting a government organized whose responsibility, again, is to Palestinian civilians in Gaza is the only path forward. And the question is, how long is it going to take for Israel to get there?  

Sarah [00:44:33] It was a difficult part of the speech. And it was surrounded by difficult issues. In his part of the speech, he talked about gun violence. He talked about our relationship with China. He talked about climate change. But I did feel like he ended on a hopeful note. He did address his age, sort of. I think that he was like, I've addressed my age throughout this with my energy level, and I hope that's enough. But he kind of made a joke about like Lindsey Graham hoping he was done. But that what really was a danger was old ideas like retribution. And the negativity and the fear mongering that's coming from the Trump campaign is a stark contrast to how he ended the speech, which is I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful about this country. I think that we have the solutions to our own problems. And listen, I love that kind of thing. I'm not a lot.  

Beth [00:45:20] No, I like it too. And it's what I want from our leaders. I go back to Doctor Angelou's statement that people forget what you say, but remember how you made them feel. And I think having a president who can laugh at himself, a president who can, in a good natured way, poke fun at his political rivals, who is not afraid to engage directly with members of Congress or to look the Supreme Court in the face and say, I don't like what you did, all of that is pretty magnetic. It's the kind of person that you want to be led by, and it is such a clear contrast to our other option in this election.  

Sarah [00:46:02] Yeah, that's what I kept thinking throughout. And he sort of cements it for me because that's what I've been saying for weeks. They're just not serious people. And I think there's a temptation to say they're not serious and they're dangerous. And they are. I believe Donald Trump to be a truly dangerous option. If you want to talk about Gaza, he has no articulated policy, and all we know from what he's done in the past would be truly combustible in a situation that I think we all think has gotten as terrible as it could be. But believe me, it could be worse under his leadership. At the same time, I think there is something to laugh at them. This is silly. This behavior from Katie Britt, from Marjorie Taylor Greene, from the far right wing ideologues going after Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey, it's silly. This is the behavior of unserious people who just want to scare you and have no actual ideas about how to lead this country.  It's just silliness.  

Beth [00:47:06] The way I would put that is that after the State of the Union, the fact that you don't see a meaningful difference between Senator Katie Brett and Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, tells you that the party is collapsing in on itself. The circle of people who can fit under the umbrella of the party is shrinking because the party demands it. They are not serious in their approach to governance, but they have very serious ideas about what they will do with power. And those ideas are consequential. And some of those ideas, I think, are dangerous for a whole lot of people and certainly for the world. Dealing with that by taking it seriously as President Biden does, but not taking himself too seriously in the process and encouraging the rest of us to still have a good time and still laugh and still be good natured and still work with folks where we can work with them, is so much more attractive to me. That's a bigger umbrella that a lot more people can fit under. So it's okay that he loses me in the middle of the speech with some of his ideas, because on the priority issues I can fit under his umbrella and under that full approach to leadership, who this person is, his integrity, his personality, his approach. I want to be in that direction. Not this one that says all we've got is fear and anger, and the cynical use of matters of faith and culture that are very important to lots of Americans to manipulate you into believing that you're actually with us.  

Sarah [00:48:53] And just the death of America. I mean, that's what he's saying. He's like, America is dying. I understand, and I did think a lot about if you're really suffering, if you're really struggling to afford the basic necessities of life, if you have a family member struggling with a fentanyl addiction, if you're really caught up in it; with some of the biggest, thorniest, most painful policy problems in America now, when Joe Biden talks optimistically about America, does that run all over you? And I can see in some ways that it does. But I don't know how if you're caught up in this, you want to hear somebody say it's because the country is dying, that's why you're caught up in these problems. It's because all is lost and the country is dying. And it's just this one person's fault, and I'm the only one that can fix it. To me I'm not saying that doesn't appeal to anybody, but I sure don't think it appeals to the majority. And that's why I thought it was a great State of the Union. And it feels to me the joke of the beginning, the optimism at the end, the specifics in the middle, well done. Feisty, feisty Joe Biden.  

[00:50:10] Music Interlude.  

[00:50:22] Beth, you have two children of the same gender.  

Beth [00:50:25] I do.  

Sarah [00:50:26] Is the hand me down pipeline the bane of your existence as it is mine?  

Beth [00:50:33] I hate it so much. I try to have a sense of gratitude for it. I try to remember how responsible it is. That it is pushing back against consumerism, that it is more environmentally responsible. And still, I resent every tee shirt and pair of jeans. Every single one of them. I hate myself for having purchased them in the first place, and I hate myself for having kept them.  

Sarah [00:50:54] Yes. That's accurate. That is an accurate description of the hand me down pipeline. So Tara Bremer from House Peace, which is an incredible team of organizers across the country. They're in Birmingham, Mobile, Atlanta, New York City. She reached out to me that you want to do a collaboration. I'm taking her around the house. I'm like, well, my closet kind of frustrates me and my pantry can get on my nerves. And then about 30 minutes in the conversation, I was like, wait a second; I can't believe it took me this long to get here. The reason it took me so long to get here to like Tara, this is where I need your help, is because I block it. Because the closets that my children share are upstairs, and I try not to go in them because they are painful, triggering, stressful spaces. And so what my brain does is try to pretend they don't exist. But I finally remembered and I said, this is where I need help. Please help me. When we Face Time, took the phone and then she's like, oh yeah, okay, I got you. It's a disaster. It's a total complete disaster.  Because here's the other part of the hand-me-down pipeline, is that it's not like you can even just sort them by size. It's a crapshoot. Is that an actual 12 or is it closer to a 14 or is it really a 10? There's no size 13. So forget that.  

Beth [00:52:22] And the seasonality.  

Sarah [00:52:24] It's a torture chamber, Beth. What it is is a torture chamber.  

Beth [00:52:29] No, I know. I live it.  

Sarah [00:52:31] Tara came with longtime beloved listener Colin Dixon who was on her team. She comes into the closet, Beth, and she goes "We're going to need some more supplies." Because here's the other track of the same pipeline, is that I was keeping way too much because I just thought, well, kids, they destroy clothes. I don't want to in any way, shape or form being in a place to have to go buy more. So I was keeping like, oh, I don't know. And I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, which is I know a thing I can do from time to time. I would have like 75, 80 tee shirts at the same size. Why was I doing that?  

Beth [00:53:05] Well, because how could you differentiate? You don't know what they're going to like. You don't know what they're going to be into. I do have one proposal that I'd like to just throw out on the table tangentially here to make this easier. I know that you're going to have lots of good information from the House Peace team, but here's one proposal I'd like to put on the table. I just think we need to all collectively decide that we are not going to give kids tee shirts for every camp and sport and school year.  

Sarah [00:53:32] We talked about that. The tee shirt industry, that's how Tara described it.  

Beth [00:53:36] You not only are managing what the kids really need, but also all of this stuff that just comes into your life somehow and you pass it down because why wouldn't you? But then they don't want that. They don't want their older siblings summer cheer camp shirt.  

Sarah [00:53:51] Spring sports day shirt. Exactly. That's what Tara said. She was like, hey, I hear you. Professional organizers they're like marriage counselors. They're very good at reflecting back to you what you need to hear. So she's like, I hear you saying that they might destroy some of these tee shirts, but we all know they will also bring tee shirts in themselves. They will also procure new tee shirts. And I was like, that's it. I needed to hear that because you're right. So we talked about, like, let's really do the math on how often you want them to do laundry. If they wore a new shirt every single day, what would that mean? Which they're not going to do. You know that. I know that. They're not going to wear a new shirt every single day. They're going to wear their favorites over and over again like every other human being on planet Earth. Just because they're little doesn't mean psychology doesn't apply. And so then I was limited to under the bed bins for a couple sizes. So it forced me to say like I'm going to keep what will fit in this bin and no more. And when I tell you the transformation of these spaces, you have to go to my Instagram. Did you see the before and after, Beth?  

Beth [00:55:00] I saw the before and after.  

Sarah [00:55:01] Were you sitting down when you saw the after?  

Beth [00:55:05] What I loved so much about that after was that there was so much white space.  

Sarah [00:55:09] So much.  

Beth [00:55:12] I haven't seen white space in a kid's closet since I had one single newborn.  

Sarah [00:55:20] Right? It was beautiful.  

Beth [00:55:23] It looks magical.  

Sarah [00:55:25]  And I just walk up there. Now, instead of avoiding the space, I'm drawn to the space. I'm like, look here. Look how I can walk through here. Isn't that amazing? That's special. That I could plant my feet inside this closet instead of having to step over, on or under things. Is transformative. The expertise is incredible. And I know everybody's thinking like, well, I can't bring them to my house. You should if you live in one of those cities. But if you can't, Tara has a closet boot camp where she talks about her process. She's going to have live classes. It starts at the end of this month. We'll put all the links in the show notes. I was so impressed with her. This has changed my life. It's how I feel all the time after spring cleaning because I did do my closet recently. I talked about this.  I just don't think we ever fully appreciate how much clutter affects our brain. That's why we get the fever in the spring.  

Beth [00:56:20] Well, here's the thing too. I have internalized the message that if things are a mess, it's because I'm lazy.  

Sarah [00:56:27] No, no. Why?  

Beth [00:56:30] And I think what you have to learn is that it is hard to organize a closet in a way that can be maintained. Yes, that's really hard. It has taken me the almost 18 years I have lived in this house to figure out a way that we can maintain our laundry room, to figure out what we really use, what we really need to access regularly.  

Sarah [00:56:52] That’s because your laundry room is also a mudroom, Beth. That is a pickle.

Beth [00:56:56] There's a mudroom. There's a utility sink. It's the first place we come in to get to the kitchen. And just to figure out what do I regularly need to access versus what do I need to access once a year, but I really need it then, it's hard. It's really difficult. And so to have somebody come in who has seen a million kids closets where clothes are being handed down to say, this is how you can do it and they can maintain it, that's huge expertise that most of us don't have. Of course, we don't.  

Sarah [00:57:28] Yeah, I think that's so true. I think this is spring cleaning and wanting to get systems that work. I mean, this industry exists for a reason. It's not just because they're good marketers some of them, it's because that there's a need. There's an actual need for someone, even if it's not expertise. Someone in the DMs was like, it's just a ministry for someone to hold your hand and say, do you want to keep this or not? Being in person or through an online class, you just need the accountability. You just need the deadline. Like it's just huge and helpful. And I think like we all attach ourselves to some of these organizers like Marie Kondo, because there is such a psychological component to it, and people who can name that and help you through it are invaluable.  

Beth [00:58:12] Well, it's just nice to hear, no, you aren't lazy or a failure or incompetent. This is actually a challenge.  

Sarah [00:58:20] Yeah.  

Beth [00:58:20] And it is hard. It is all of our feelings about money and status and-- 

Sarah [00:58:29] Our homes.  

Beth [00:58:29] How much our family has struggled or how hard we've worked to get where we are. Or our fear that the bottom will fall out somewhere. It is all wrapped up in what we keep and how we keep it. It is a lot. It is kind of the most. And so to have people give us good information who have dealt with everyone's the most, I think what a gift you got. How wonderful that they came to help you.  

Sarah [00:58:56] All because I said less. It's all because I said less. Which I think I have just decided is my word. I'm just going to have to… less just keeps going. It's not cherish. It's me. I'm the word. I told you I was the word and you got spooked. But I'm just showing you every time that I was the word. And you hurt my feelings. Because you won't acknowledge that I was actually the word for 2024.  

Beth [00:59:17] I never felt that less was negative.  

Sarah [00:59:19] I know you did.  

Beth [00:59:20] I tried to be encouraging about this. I never felt it was negative.  

Sarah [00:59:23] So I'm cherishing less. How about that? There we go.  

Beth [00:59:28] I'm glad that you've made up with your real word.  

Sarah [00:59:29] Yeah. Well, thank you for being here today. We appreciate all of you. If you like the show or you find it helpful, we really hope that you'll share it with a friend or a group of friends. We find text messaging DMs inside Instagram to be excellent ways to share the show. And remember, if you are a premium member through Apple Podcast subscriptions, please make sure you share your contact information with us through the link in the show notes so that we can get the information about this week's Spicy Live to you.  

Beth [00:59:57] We'll be back with you on Friday with a very special conversation. Doctor Charity Dean will be here. She is one of the contributors to Lessons From the Covid War, which is a book that blew us both away about the four years since Covid was the novel coronavirus and what we've learned about it and where our system both succeeded and failed. So join us on Friday. Until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

[01:00:19] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

Maggie Penton3 Comments